In this powerful and often provocative dialogue, psychotherapist and developmental theorist Kim Barta joins Keith Martin-Smith for a deep dive into the psychological and developmental dynamics surrounding one of the most polarizing figures of our time: Donald Trump.

Drawing from decades of clinical experience and the STAGES developmental model, Kim outlines a rigorous three-part typology of shadow—projection, introjects, and split ego states—and shows how each of these can be activated in our political and cultural reactions. Whether you're vehemently opposed to Trump or a staunch supporter, this conversation invites you to pause, look inward, and ask: What part of this is my perception—and what part is my projection?

Because whether you love him or hate him, Trump functions as a kind of shadow magnet—someone onto whom we unconsciously project either our darkest disowned traits or our most idealized hopes. His presence on the political stage acts like a psychological Rorschach test, provoking intense reactions that can often reveal more about our internal landscape than they do about the man himself.

For those critical of Trump, Kim offers a challenging but compassionate perspective: if Trump “makes you crazy,” then you've already given away your power. Shadow work, he suggests, doesn't mean condoning harmful behavior—it means reclaiming the capacity to act from clarity rather than compulsion, from discernment rather than disturbance. And this matters—because if Trump truly is the existential threat many perceive him to be, then our resistance must come from grounded, skillful action rather than reactive turmoil. Otherwise, we risk undermining our own integrity, credibility, and capacity to influence meaningful change.

For those who support Trump, Kim extends the same invitation to self-inquiry. Many on the right experience a profound sense of betrayal, cultural marginalization, or disempowerment — and that pain often fuels projection just as powerfully as it does on the left. The goal here isn’t to invalidate anyone’s concerns, but to help distinguish between authentic values and reactive identity defense. Because if you truly believe in the principles Trump represents to you — whether it’s populism, sovereignty, or freedom — then embodying those principles with clarity and compassion will always be more persuasive than lashing out from a place of grievance or fear.

Which is why this is not a conversation about being "right" — it's a conversation about being whole.