The VBAC Link

Listen to today’s episode to hear Meagan talk all about bicornuate, unicornuate, arcuate, and septate uteruses, uterine didelphys, and more.

Though there can be complications, research is limited, and vaginal birth is often possible. Chat with your provider about your birthing desires, and don’t be afraid to get multiple opinions!

A Case of Vaginal Birth after Cesarean Delivery in a Patient with Uterine Didelphys

Uterine Differences

Successful Vaginal Delivery after External Cephalic Version in a Woman with a Large Partial Uterine Septum

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, everybody. Welcome to The VBAC Link. This is Meagan, and I am solo today. We will not be sharing a VBAC or CBAC story, but we’re going to focus on our topic of the week. That is uterine abnormalities. 

So if you haven’t listened to Flannery’s episode last week, or I should say earlier this week, go check it out. Flannery has a bicornuate uterus, and we talked a little bit about the different types of uteruses, and her journey, and what happened or what was most common with her bicornuate uterus. 

But today, I wanted to talk a little bit more about the different types of uteruses. 

It’s kind of weird to think about, but we do. We have multiple shapes of our uteruses. I don’t think it’s really talked about a lot, so I thought it would be cool to jump on today and talk a little bit more about the uteruses. 

But, we do have a Review of the Week, so I wanted to jump on and share this review. It says, “I now recommend this podcast to every mom who will listen, even first-time moms. I tell them this is the podcast I wish I would have listened to before our first traumatic birth. It helped me process, learn, and heal so much after my son’s birth. Two years later, pouring into numerous books, online courses, and more, we are preparing for our October VBAC. Their podcast has by far been the most favorite resource hands down. Thanks, Julie and Meagan, so much for what you do.”

Thank you guys for your review. That review was left on Google, so if you wouldn’t mind, press pause in just one moment, and go leave us a review. Your reviews help other Women of Strength come and find this podcast, find the blogs, find the course, find the doulas. You guys, I love this community so stinking much and believe that every mom, just like the reviewer said, and even first-time moms should be listening to this podcast. These stories that you guys share are absolutely incredible. The information that we share is invaluable. 

If you can, go to Google. Type in, “The VBAC Link” and leave us a review, or leave us a review wherever you are listening to your podcasts. 

Okay, everybody. Like I said, we are going to be diving into uterine abnormalities. We talked a little bit about Flannery. She had a bicornuate uterus. 

What is a bicornuate uterus? A bicornuate uterus is a heart-shaped uterus meaning the uterus has two horns making it look like the shape of a heart. With bicornuate uteruses, there are some things to know. There can be a higher chance of a breech baby. I’m going to share my source here with you. It’s pregnancybirthbaby.org. We’re going to have this in the show notes. I think that it is just so great. It’s such a great visual and understanding on the different types. 

So yeah. They’ve got two horns. It doesn’t reduce your chances of having a baby or getting pregnant. It can increase things like early miscarriage or an early preterm baby, or like I said, it can impact the position of the baby. 

But it’s possible. VBAC is possible with that. The hardest thing about uterine abnormalities is there is not a ton of evidence or deep studies to dive into how it’s impacting people who want to go on and have a vaginal birth or go for a, in the medical world, TOLAC or trial of labor after a Cesarean. 

If you have a uterine abnormality, it’s something to discuss with your provider. Know you don’t have to go with that first answer. You can get multiple opinions. 

Okay, another uterine abnormality or shape is– oh my gosh, you guys. Don’t quote me on this. I will butcher how to say these. I will try my best. 

It’s a didelphys uterus. It means that your uterus is split in two, and each side of your uterus has its own area. it also can increase your chance of having a premature birth, so if that is something that you have, I think that’s something you want to discuss with your provider knowing that you could have a premature birth. 

We also know people who have premature VBACs all the time, but it’s something to discuss. 

There’s acruate, and that is a uterus that actually looks really similar to a normal-sized uterus but has a deeper dip in the top of the uterus in the womb. It doesn’t affect your fertility. It can increase just a little bit of a later miscarriage. That is something to discuss, although sometimes providers will want to induce if everything is looking well at an earlier gestational age. Also, this one can impact the position of your baby, so being aware of that. 

Then there’s septate. Again, I don’t know. Sorry for butchering this, you guys. If you’re a medical professional, sorry. It says, “A septate womb has the wall of a muscle that comes down the center of the uterus, and then it splits into those two areas and is divided by a membrane or a tight band of tissue.” It reminds me of a rubber band. It splits it down. 

It can also impact fertility and, again, increase the possible risk of miscarriage in the early stages or cause a premature baby. Once again, discuss with your provider if you have this what that means and what that means for VBAC birth in general. 

Then, let’s see. There’s also retroverted. That’s a uterus that tips further back instead of that forward stage. Again, there are so many different types and shapes of uteruses. Sometimes we don’t know what we have until we have a baby who is born. Sometimes it’s once we have a Cesarean where they are like, “Oh, hey. You have this type of shaped uterus.” If you really feel like you need to know or you are having issues or anything like that, dive in with your provider and see if they can tell you what shape of uterus you have.

Like I said, little is known about the outcome of VBAC with uterine abnormalities, but there is an article and it was back in 2019. It’s called “A Case of Vaginal Birth After Cesarean Patient Who Has a Uterine Didelphys”. I want to talk a little bit more about that. As a reminder, that is the one that is split in two. 

If I recall, I think they even have their own cervixes. That can be interesting. But this is going to be a little bit more on this. They talk about it. There are only a few studies. The studies are low, like 165 women in the one study. It shows that those women with abnormalities found were statistically less likely to have VBAC. 

Again, we know that a lot of the time, these people have babies who are in less ideal positions or they are going into early preterm labor. There are things to be said about that. But the other small study is literally teeny tiny. It had 25 women with uterine abnormalities reported, and a VBAC rate was similar to women with a “normal” uterus. 

There are things to say there.

Now, the other study showed that they were less likely to experience uterine rupture than women with normal uteruses, but then this one said that the uterine rupture rate was higher. So such little information. I mean, really, it’s little information that I have been able to find so far. I’m going to dive in deeper and update you, but yeah. It says, “The actual rates in VBAC and uterine rupture in women with uterine abnormalities are more likely to be similar or less favorable than those women with normal uteruses.” 

So, keep that in mind. It goes on and says, “Some authors hypothesized that uterine abnormalities, especially unicornuate uteruses, are associated with decreased uterine muscle mass. So when we have decreased uterine muscle mass, that means it may not contract as effectively or strongly as it needs to, so that can lead to other things like arrest of descent or we were not getting into that active phase of labor, needing things like Pitocin and things to augment labor or they may have a harder time pushing out the baby because the uterus isn’t helping as well. 

So we may have a higher chance of an assisted delivery like a vacuum or forceps. With all of this said, you guys, I want to leave it here with you to encourage you to speak with your provider, and get multiple opinions. 

If you have been told that you can’t VBAC because of a certain situation, dive a little deeper with questions with your provider because again, the hardcore evidence is not really there. It’s just low. I mean, it’s there, but it’s low. There’s another article that says that uterine abnormalities are common in the general population with an estimated range of 1-15 per 1000% women. 

We know that there are people out there who have uterine abnormalities. I don’t feel like it’s talked about a ton, and that’s why I wanted to come on today and talk a little about the different types, and of course, share with Flannery’s episode with a bicornuate uterus showing that she still did go on to have a VBAC and it is possible. 

So if you have a uterine abnormality, please know that it doesn’t mean you’re just completely off the table. It still can be an option. Discuss it with your provider. Check out the links. I will include them in the show notes today more on those uterine abnormalities, and what it means, and what these studies are showing. 

There was another one that said that a septate uterus is clinically significant because it has been shown to be associated with adverse pregnancy outcomes including, like I said, that preterm labor and malpresentation. So it’s a thing that can cause malpresentation and can cause preterm labor, and even miscarriage. 

But does that mean that you can’t have a vaginal birth? Another thing to ask your providers if you have any of these things are, “Okay, if my baby is in a less than ideal position, say, breech or transverse, does my uterine abnormality or my specific case rule me out of having something like an ECV?” Varying rates of ECV success have been reported, and we’re also not doing them enough. We are not seeing them being done enough, even though they have a lot of success. 

But the question is if you have a uterus that is a little different, do you qualify? Ask the questions. Be informed, and if you have any questions, let us know.

And hey, if you have a uterine abnormality and you are listening, and you had a VBAC, I would love to hear from you because we have people who are searching for stories with uterine abnormalities. I know that our community would love to hear your story. 

You can message us at [email protected] or if you are a provider who maybe knows a lot more and specializes a lot in uterine abnormalities, I would love to chat with you and discuss a podcast episode in the future. Thank you guys!

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Flannery joins us today from Connecticut sharing her story of an unexpected C-section at 35 weeks due to oligohydramnios, breech presentation, and concerns with her baby’s kidney functions. She was also transferred to an unfamiliar hospital for its surgical capabilities. Though she was terrified, her anesthesiologist was calm and reassuring. 

The toughest memory of Flannery’s birth was not being able to kiss her baby before he was swept away to the NICU. She was determined to do everything in her power not to have that happen again the second time. 

Knowing she had a bicornuate uterus, she worked hard to keep her baby’s head down from the very beginning of her second pregnancy. She switched to a midwife practice, carried her baby past her due date, went into spontaneous labor, and had an intensely beautiful unmedicated hospital VBAC!

NICU Free Parking

Types of Uterine Shapes

AFI Article

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, everybody. We have our friend from Connecticut. And you know what? I didn’t ask. How do you say your name? 

Flannery: It’s Flannery. 

Meagan: That’s how I was going to say it. 

Flannery: Yes, good job. 

Meagan: We have our friend, Flannery, here from Connecticut and she has a bicornuate uterus. This week’s focus is on different shaped uteruses or uterine abnormalities as I’m air quoting. We know that people have them. People have different-shaped uteruses. 

Sometimes that can impact things like breech babies or even a provider’s ability to support– I don’t want to say ability. It’s their willingness to support, especially in VBAC. We’re going to be diving into that. She’s also a NICU mama so for other NICU mamas, she might have some tips for you along the way. 

She just told me before this that she was a labor and delivery nurse before she had her first. 

Flannery: Yep, and then I switched over. 

Meagan: Now she switched over to postpartum. She knows the field, so we might talk a little bit about labor and delivery nursing and the postpartum world. 

Flannery: Yeah, definitely. 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Okay, well let’s get into your stories. 

Flannery: Okay, thank you. I’m so excited. I would listen to this podcast all the time when I was pregnant. At the end, when they say, “If you’d like to share your VBAC story–” and I would say, “I will be sharing my VBAC stories someday.” 

Meagan: I love that. “I will be sharing my story”, and here you are sharing with all of the other Women of Strength coming to learn and grow and feel empowered. 

Flannery: Yeah, I loved it. 

My first pregnancy was actually an unplanned pregnancy. I had just gotten married. I just started a labor and delivery nurse job. I was noticing that I wasn’t feeling great, that I had some bleeding which I thought was my period, so I just was like, “You know what? Let me take a pregnancy test just to reassure myself because there is no way that it will be positive.” 

It was, and I was so shocked. I remember taking the tests, seeing the two lines, and my heart dropping. I thought to myself, “I am not ready to be a mom. I can’t believe that I am having an unplanned pregnancy. This is so crazy.” 

I was only 25 which I know is not that young, but up here in Connecticut, it’s pretty young. 

Meagan: Is it really? What’s the average for first-time moms? Can I ask?

Flannery: I’m guessing 30-32. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Flannery: None of my friends had babies yet or anything, so I felt very alone and obviously very shocked. Yeah. I had no idea how far along I was. I went to the dating ultrasound with my husband at the hospital where I worked, and they put the wand on my belly. There was a full baby in there. 

It wasn’t a bean. It wasn’t a little heartbeat, but it was a baby. They said, “You’re 11.5 weeks along.” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. Really?

Flannery: Yeah. I was beyond shocked. Meagan, I had no idea that I was pregnant. I didn’t have any symptoms. I was having some bleeding, so I thought that had been my period, but nope. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. Was it implantation bleeding? But then that would be too late. 

Flannery: I don’t know. I think maybe just how some people get first-trimester spotting or bleeding after sex or exercise or something. I’m thinking that’s what it was. 

Meagan: Crazy. 

Flannery: I know. I had skipped the first trimester, and that terrified me because I wasn’t on a prenatal. I was having some wine. I was just like, “How could I have missed this? This is embarrassing. I’m a nurse.” 

Meagan: “I’m a nurse.” Hey, listen. It happens. People talk about it. I’m sure that was such a shock not only to see those two pink lines and that you were not having babies with any of your friends, but then you skipped the whole first trimester. 

Flannery: Crazy. It was crazy. It took a while to wrap our heads around it. Then during the ultrasound, hearing the ultrasound tech saying, “Have you ever had an ultrasound of your uterus before?” I was like, “No,” not thinking anything of it, just focusing on the baby, and then I got a call from my doctor a few days later, and she was like, “So, it looks like you have a bicornuate uterus. Have you ever heard of that?” I was like, “No. I’ve never heard of that before.” 

She said, “Basically, your uterus is shaped like a heart, and it should be shaped like a balloon.” I was like, “Okay. That doesn’t sound too bad.” We hung up. I went on Google and Googled “bicornuate uterus”, and let’s just say the stuff that comes up is not reassuring at all. It’s so scary. 

It says things like, “Risk of preterm delivery. Risk of stillbirth. Risk of infertility. Risk of malpresentation.” It just went on and on. Postpartum hemorrhage, and all of this stuff, so I really broke down. I remember just crying and crying to my husband, “I’ve had this crazy birth defect my whole life, and I’ve never known it.” I didn’t know how it was going to impact my birth or anything. That was definitely scary.

Meagan: Did they tell you anything about how it could impact your pregnancy or your birth? 

Flannery: Not really. This was a general GP doctor that I was seeing, so she didn’t really go into it with me, but I definitely spoke about it to the midwives that I was seeing once I established care with them. They were just like, “Yeah, it can cause baby to be breech.” That was all they told me about it. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Flannery: Yeah. I was doing a lot of research looking for podcasts and everything about bicornuate uterus and all of the things that go along with it, but I couldn’t really find much. This was a few years ago, so maybe three or four podcast episodes about bicornuate uterus, breech, and malformation. I think now there are more, but at the time, it was really hard to find information. 

Meagan: Yeah. I still feel like it’s 2024. What year are we in? We are almost in 2025. We are in 2024, and it still is. There is still not a ton. It’s not a beefy topic. 

Flannery: No, it’s really not. I think that some people don’t know they have it until they get pregnant which was in my case, and they have an ultrasound. It’s hard to tell later on in pregnancy if you have it because your baby will stretch out the uterine space, so you can really only tell in the first trimester if you have an ultrasound. 

Meagan: Interesting. Good to know. 

Flannery: So my pregnancy progressed pretty normally after that. I was very stressed at this new job in labor and delivery that I was working in. I was seeing really scary births all of the time, traumatic births, and some good ones too, but it put this idea in my head that you cannot plan your birth. Things are so out of your control that there’s no reason to have a plan because you’re just going to be disappointed anyway. All you can do is go with the flow. That was my attitude at the time. It’s definitely changed since then. 

It was definitely interesting trying to be a first-time mom and also learn how to be a labor and delivery nurse and reconcile the two experiences that I was seeing. 

Meagan: I bet. 

Flannery: Yeah. 

Meagan: I bet that would be really challenging. 

Flannery: It was. It was interesting. I established care with some midwives who I worked with. They were highly recommended, but I didn’t really feel like they were giving me the midwife experience that I had heard so many people rave about. I felt like they really treated me like a coworker instead of a first-time mom when I was going to their appointments. 

I was fine with their care. I wouldn’t say it was the best or the worst by any means. Then I realized around 25-26 weeks, “Gosh. I’m really feeling this rock under my ribs all the time. I think that’s the baby’s head. I think the baby is breech.” 

Then at 28 weeks, I had a growth scan because you have to have growth scans if you have a bicornuate uterus, and they were like, “Yeah, sure enough, the baby is breech.” The midwives told me, “Okay, you can do some Spinning Babies and put an ice pack near the baby’s head and play music down low,” and all of those crazy things that you hear. I was like, “Yeah, sure. Okay, I’ll try it.” 

I did a few inversions, but they gave me terrible heartburn, so I was not super consistent with that. The baby just wasn’t budging week after week. Eventually, it came to about 35 weeks, and I was getting another growth scan. I had just worked a very tiring shift at work. I went to get my ultrasound. I was dozing off as she did it. 

She stopped the ultrasound, and she said, “I’m going to send you over to your midwife’s office. Go over right now.” I walked over, and the midwife was like, “Girl, what’s going on?” I was like, “I don’t know. I just had this pit in my stomach, but I had no clue what was going on.” She was like, “You have no fluid. Get back to the hospital. You’re going in as a patient now, and we’re going to try to rehydrate you.” I was like, “What? What is going on? No fluid? What does that mean?” 

I guess they had found in ultrasound that my baby’s left kidney was super dilated, and my fluid was low which is called oligohydramnios. I know you’ve talked about this on the podcast before, but I think they measure it with an AFI. It’s supposed to be over 8. Mine was a 4. 

Meagan: Really low. Yeah, below 5. But they were just going to rehydrate you. They weren’t going to induce you? 

Flannery: Not yet, no. They wouldn’t have induced me anyway because my baby was breech. 

Meagan: Which is good. They wouldn’t. Yeah. 

Flannery: They were going to try to rehydrate me first and see how that went. It did, and they decided to give me some steroid shots too. My favorite midwife came in, and she said, “We’re going to do these steroid shots, and we’re going to see if the rehydrating works. I know you’ve been working hard. Maybe this is just a dehydration situation because you haven’t been able to take care of yourself properly.” I was like, “Okay”, then she made a comment about delivery at 37 weeks. I was like, “Oh, this is a delivery-type situation.” It had really not sunk in with me yet that this was that serious. She was like, “Yes. Oligohydramnios can cause stillbirth. It’s very serious. Probably what we are looking at is two weeks of monitoring, and then delivery at 37 weeks which will be a C-section unless your baby flips.” 

I was like, “Oh my god. Okay.” 

Meagan: Yeah. But with the fluid, did they want to continue giving you fluid? Did they encourage your hydration with electrolytes and everything? 

Flannery: Yes, they did. I was chugging water like a maniac for a few days and coconut water and all of this stuff and getting IV fluid. It did come back up a little bit to a 6, maybe. 

Meagan: I was going to say, did it fix it at all?

Flannery: I was still getting a bunch of ultrasounds, then it went right back down to a 4. They said, “We’re going to have you consult with maternal-fetal medicine at a bigger hospital on March 9th. My baby was due April 11th, but this was a lot earlier than I was expecting anything to happen. We went to this appointment to get this more detailed ultrasound, and the doctor comes in. She seems very nervous. That’s not what you want. You don’t want a doctor to seem nervous.

No. She’s like, “It looks like your baby’s left kidney is non-functional. It’s just a cluster of cysts.” 

Meagan: Oh no. 

Flannery: I was like, “Oh my god.” I was so terrified. I just had no clue. This didn’t show up on the 20-week ultrasound or anything. She was like, “And your fluid is still super low.” We did an NST. They sent us home, and I was just waiting around at home with my husband for my midwife to call to make a plan. I was like, “Am I going back to work tomorrow? Am I going to be having this baby?” 

She called me, and she was like, “So, this isn’t what I was expecting to tell you today, but I’ve been consulting with the neonatologist here and some OBs. Since you’ve already had your steroid shots, we want you to go to the hospital now to have your baby tonight.” She was like, “Don’t rush down the highway in the snow. This is an urgent, not an emergent situation. You’ll be in good hands.” 

I was like, “What in the world?” I was so taken aback. I didn’t believe it. They were also transferring me to a different hospital from the one that I had worked at and had planned to deliver at. 

Meagan: Is it because of the NICU situation?

Flannery: Because of the NICU, yeah. This bigger hospital had the capability for surgery, and my hospital did not. It was a situation where it was a small hospital and a situation that they weren’t really comfortable with. We hopped in the car and drove through this big snowstorm. I was just crying and shaking. We had no idea. We were both terrified. We had no idea what we were about to walk into.

When we met our OB, she walked into the room. She just radiated calmness and kindness and peace. She was just an angel. She made us feel so safe. They were monitoring the baby and putting my IV in. I was still trying to wrap my head around the fact that I was having a baby tonight. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Flannery: I was wondering, “Is this baby going to be okay? What is going on here?” We walked down the hall to the OR. I kissed my husband goodbye. I remember just thinking, “Okay. Here we go. There’s no going back now.” The only way I could stay calm was to surrender any of the control that I thought I had and really just trust in God and trust in the people who were going to do the surgery on me. I lay down on the table and the anesthesiologist was so kind. He was petting my head and talking to me. 

My husband came in and they were setting up the drapes. My doctor who I had just met leaned her head over and she said, “This is where I had my first daughter.” That just made me feel so happy. Things are going to be normal again. She had a C-section too. It made me feel very safe. 

Everything went really well during the operation. I remember I could see the reflection of the operation in the lights that they have above you. I bet other moms will know what I am talking about, but they have these big OR lights, and I could kind of see what they were doing which was crazy.

Meagan: You can. They’re like mirrors. 

Flannery: I know. They should come up with something better. 

Meagan: Yes. For those who don’t want to watch or see anything, just turn to the side. 

Flannery: Close your eyes. 

Meagan: Close your eyes. Turn to the side. 

Flannery: Yeah. They said, “After a few minutes, okay. Here he comes. Then he’s out.” I didn’t hear anything. I heard someone say, “Okay. I need to take him.” I could tell that was the neonatalogist saying they needed to work on him a little bit. They took him over to a corner where we couldn’t see or hear anything that was going on. We could just hear people talking. Eventually, we heard a little cry. My husband started to cry. I looked at him, and I smiled. 

I just felt relief that he was alive, but I didn’t feel anything. I just felt this nothingness. 

Meagan: I can so relate to that. 

Flannery: Yeah. It’s so strange. It’s just not what you’re hoping to feel in this big important moment. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Flannery: I remember the neonatalogist after a while, he was breathing on his own. He had peed and pooped. They showed us pictures of him. She walked over with him in his arms in this little bundle of blankets. She stood pretty far away, maybe 6 or 10 feet away. She was like, “Okay. You know the plan. We need to check his kidneys in the NICU. What’s his name?” I said, “I don’t know. I need to see his face.” 

She flashed the blanket at me and flashed it down so I could see his face. I couldn’t see anything. I said, “I don’t know. I don’t know what his name is,” and she walked out with him. 

That is just the worst memory from that whole experience. The surgery itself was really good. The care I had was great, but I’ll never get that moment back. She could have brought him over to give me a kiss or see his face. It was hours until– 

Meagan: Touch or kiss his face.

Flannery: It was so long until I could see him and meet him in the NICU. I just think about that all of the time. I did get to go meet him after a few hours. He was doing great. I didn’t recognize him at first when my husband rolled me over to his isolet in the NICU which was hard, but as soon as I held him, I just had this overwhelming rush of love. It hasn’t changed to this day. He’s just such a joy.

He turned out to be fine. His kidney was normal. It’s resolved on its own, and it wasn’t a cluster of cysts like they had thought. 

Meagan: Yay.

Flannery: Yeah. He’s doing great. He’s a very rambunctious, very smart 2.5-year-old now. 

Meagan: Good. 

Flannery: Yeah. I’m so grateful that I have him now. I’m so grateful that I accidentally got pregnant with him.

Meagan: Yes. He was meant to be, and he was going to make sure that he was.

Flannery: He totally was. Yeah. Yeah. 

Meagan: I’m sorry that you had that experience. I want to say it’s unique, but it’s not. That sucks. 

Flannery: It’s totally not. 

Meagan: I hope that as people are listening, if they are in the birth world of labor and delivery nurses or OBs or midwives or whatever it may be, please be mindful of mom. Please be mindful of mom. Don’t forget that she doesn’t feel these things because does. She needs to see her baby. She needs to touch her baby. She needs to kiss her baby. If it is a true emergency, true emergency, understandable. But in a sense of this, it doesn’t sound like it was a true emergency.

Flannery: It wasn’t. It wasn’t. 

Meagan: They went over, and they took a lot of time with your baby, and then came and left. They didn’t need to just come and leave. 

Flannery: Right, right. Especially when baby is breathing on its own and stuff, you can take 10 seconds to let mom give baby a kiss.

Meagan: It will impact mom. 

Flannery: It totally will. 

Meagan: Here you are 2 years later still feeling mad. You’re like, “I still think about that.” I saw it. I saw it in your eyes as you were telling that story. You feel that still. That’s there. I hope that people can remember that protocols and what you think needs to happen and all of these things do not trump mom. 

Flannery: Totally. Totally. 

Meagan: Right. Yeah. 

So, having a NICU baby, how long– what was the exact gestation?

Flannery: He was 35 and 5. 

Meagan: Okay, so it was a preterm Cesarean as well. 

Flannery: Yes. 

Meagan: Did they have to do any special scar or anything like that because it was preterm? 

Flannery: No, thankfully not, but he was very stuck up in my ribs. He had the cord around his neck, and there was meconium. I know that he needed to come out that way because I don’t think he could have flipped if they did an ECV. I don’t know if he would have tolerated labor if he was head down even. 

Meagan: Yeah. That’s definitely an early baby, but good that all is well for sure. 

Flannery: Yeah. He did great. It was a rocky start, but he’s doing great now. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any advice for NICU moms listening? 

Flannery: Yes. There is this foundation that will pay for your parking costs while you’re in the NICU. I didn’t know about it in time. Parking can get very expensive when you are visiting your baby. If you just Google, “Parking Foundation for NICU parents,” I’m sure it will come up because I can’t remember the exact name. 

Meagan: I’m going to look it up. I’m going to look it up while you start your next story. We’ll make sure to have it in the show notes if I can find it. 

Flannery: Yes. Yes. 

Meagan: Okay, keep going.

Flannery: My next pregnancy, I was determined to do everything right this time. I was like, “You know what? The last pregnancy was so rocky and so unexpected that this time, I’m going to do everything right, and therefore nothing can go wrong.” 

I think people have that feeling a lot which is so irrational, but we can’t help it. I did go back to see my OB who delivered Freddy, my son. I just loved her. I thought she was wonderful. I just wanted to see what her opinion was about why I had those complications in my pregnancy and see what she thought about a VBAC because even though I wasn’t sure if I could have a VBAC, I was interested in it. 

She listed out all of these rules that she had about VBAC, about, “You can’t be preterm. You have to go into labor naturally,” and all of the things that you say are red flags on the podcast. 

Meagan: I’m like, all of the normal things, but they are all red flags. 

Flannery: Yes. I mean, I loved this doctor, and I think if I was going to have a repeat C-section, I would have gone back to her because she is awesome, but that wasn’t the experience that I wanted to have this time. 

I did a little research, and I found this midwife practice that everyone recommended to me. I decided to go with them instead. 

This pregnancy was super uneventful. I was very conscious of taking care of myself and taking walks a lot and prenatal yoga and being on top of my vitamins and all of that sort of thing. I was very religious about positioning and Spinning Babies because I was like, “If I can just get my baby head down from the beginning, I think that I can do the VBAC,” because with a bicornuate uterus, you have less time to flip them, so with a normally shaped uterus, baby can flip up until the very last minute if they are breech, but with a bicornuate uterus, first of all, you have more of a chance of baby being breech and less of a chance for them to flip based on the shape of your uterus. There’s just not as much room. 

I was trying to sit on my yoga ball and doing all of these stretches. I was thinking, “Gosh. This is so unrealistic. Who’s not going to sit on their couch for 9 months? I have to be sitting on my couch. I can’t be walking 3 miles every day,” but then I’d go back and forth in my head like, “Do you want a VBAC or not? You have to be religious about this.” 

You don’t have to do everything I guess is what I’m trying to say. You’ll try your best, but you have to do what’s right for you, but you can’t go to the extremes.

Meagan: I love that you pointed that out. With my second baby, I was doing the red raspberry leaf. I was doing the dates. I was doing all of the things, and even with my third baby, I was the one who didn’t sit on the couch for 9 months. I still had a posterior baby. I will just say that I still had a posterior baby. I had a head-down, but still a posterior baby. Actually, he was still going breech too throughout pregnancy. Yes. He was such a stinker. 

But, I did do all of those things. I did the dates. I did the tea. I did all of it. For me, With my third, I had to dial back a little bit and say, “Okay. I’m going to do everything I feel is right for this pregnancy.” Dates wasn’t one of those. I actually didn’t do the dates thing. I know there is some evidence on that, but I just didn’t do it. It didn’t feel right to me, but I did other things like chiropractic care. I did drink tea. I hired a midwife and decided to go out-of-hospital and hired a birth team. I did birth education. 

I think the biggest thing is to do all of the things that stick out and call to you. There are so many things. We give so many tips. Some tips might not apply well to you. Walking 3 miles is a lot. 

Flannery: It is a lot. 

Meagan: It’s a lot, but if you can walk a mile, that’s better than not walking any. 

Flannery: Right. 

Meagan: Right? So trying to go and find what is sitting right for you in this pregnancy, this baby, and in this birth, and doing those things and then knowing you did all of the things you could that felt right for you. 

Flannery: Yes. Totally. I totally agree. 

Meagan: I knew I could do all of these things and baby might still be breech. Baby was breech at my anatomy scan, and then again at 28 weeks at my other growth scan. I remember going into the midwife and just saying, “What can I do?” She was kind of saying, “Nothing will supersede the shep of your uterus. You can do everything. Why don’t you just visualize because at least then you will feel like you’re doing something?” I was so mad after I left that appointment. 

I was like, “You can’t tell me that I can’t do anything to make this baby flip and that it’s all down to the shape of my uterus.” I kept trying. I was 28 weeks and I was going to the chiropractor and acupuncture and inversions. This time, I was really good about the inversions even though it gave me heartburn. It worked. The baby did flip. I remember actually listening to a podcast episode from The VBAC Link, and it was about someone who was trying to flip a breech baby. She flipped her breech baby. I was like, “Okay. This gives me so much hope. I can do it.” 

It paid off because baby did flip. I was so happy. Yeah.

At one ultrasound, they did pick up an issue with the kidney. I remember being so upset because it was the same issue that my son had, but very mild. The baby had been breech at that point. I was like, “I’m trying so hard. I’m doing everything right, and it’s not working.” History is just repeating itself. That’s what it felt like to me, but we ended up finding out that the kidney resolved at the next ultrasound and the baby had flipped. It was like, “Oh, my prayers are being answered.” I couldn’t believe it. I was so happy when we got the results from that next ultrasound.

We just continued doing the prep. I had planned. I was planning to deliver in the hospital. I had a doula who was amazing. She was just with me every step of the way talking me down when I was anxious and telling me all of the different things I could try and come up with plans for repeat C-section or vaginal birth. 

I had really wanted to go without the epidural because I didn’t mention this, but I had gotten a spinal headache from my spinal last time, and that was just awful. It was almost worse than the C-section pain. 

Meagan: I’ve actually heard that because nothing really takes it away full-on. 

Flannery: Yeah, except lying down. 

Meagan: Lying down, yeah.

Flannery: I was trying to visit my baby in the NICU. I couldn’t just be lying in the hospital bed all day. So I was like, if I can avoid an epidural just so that I don’t even have the chance of having a spinal headache again, that’s what I’m going to do.

I was reading Ina May. I was watching all of the YouTube videos and doing everything that I could, but it got to be a lot. It got to be like, oh my gosh, so much work to prep for this birth. 

The whole time, you don’t know if it’s a given if you’re going ot get that VBAC.

Meagan: I know. 

Flannery: Sometimes, it can feel like, why am I doing this?

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

It is hard. It is hard because we don’t know until it’s done. 

Flannery: Exactly. Until it’s 100% over. Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Flannery: Yeah, so you know, 37 weeks came. 38 weeks, 39 weeks. I was feeling overdue basically since 35 weeks. 

Meagan: I’m sure. I bet you were like, “I don’t know how much longer I can go.” 

Flannery: I mean, I was definitely hoping to make it to term this time and I was so happy that I did. It was a big, big moment when I hit that 37-week mark, but then I just kept going and going and going. I was like, “Am I ever going to go into labor? What am I doing wrong?” I was walking. It was the end of July and it was so hot out. It was hard to get out there and walk. 

I eventually hit my due date which was July 25th. I got a membrane sweep on that day which was not super fun. It made me lose my mucus plug and have a few cramps, but nothing else. I was very hopeful that it would kickstart labor, but it did not. 

Eventually, I thought, “I just have to let go. The baby will come. You might have to have an induction, but you just have to relax.” 

Finally, finally, 5 days after my due date, which I know is not that long, but it felt long. 

Meagan: It feels long. It feels long when you are almost 6 weeks after you had your first baby.

Flannery: Yes, exactly. I woke up in the middle of the night and I had this period cramp feeling. I was like, “Oh my god. Is this it? Am I in labor?” I managed to calm down and go back to sleep. I put my hand on my belly and was like, “Am I going to get another cramp?” They came, and they came, and they started coming every 20 minutes. 

Eventually, I had to wake my husband up because it was pretty painful at that point. Maybe 2-3 hours in, I squeezed his hand. He was still sleeping, and he was like, “What’s going on?” I was like, “I think I’m in labor.” He said, “I was having a dream that your water broke.”

Meagan: Oh my gosh. You guys were both willing it in.

Flannery: Yes, exactly. It was like we were on the same wavelength. The contractions kept coming, but they just felt like mild period cramps. I had a midwife appointment at 8:15. They said to go in to see if I was in early labor. She checked me and said I was 3 or 4 centimeters dilated and almost completely effaced. She said, “Your cervix feels labory.” I said, “I think that today is the day.” 

I was convinced it was prodromal labor or going to fizzle out or something. We went all the way back home. My plan was to labor at home for as long as possible and have my doula come over. I said goodbye to my little 2-year-old. My mom was taking him to hang out with her while we were in the hospital, and I remember she had him say to me, “Good luck, and be strong.”

The sound of his little voice saying that to me literally just sustained me through the entire labor. It was replaying in my head in the hardest moments. I could just hear him saying that and it meant so much to me. Yeah. 

We just hung out at home. I was getting pretty irregular timed contractions. I was wondering why they weren’t getting closer together because sometime they would be close together. Sometimes they would be spaced apart, but they were definitely getting stronger. I got in the bath or the shower. I was leaning over, and swaying and moaning, doing all of the things that you’re supposed to do– the low-toned moaning and the breathing. 

I eventually had my doula come over after one really bad contraction. I was like, “What’s going on? Why isn’t it picking up? Why aren’t they getting closer together? Should I go to the hospital? What’s going on?” I was really afraid of the car ride because it was about 40 minutes in the car. She said, “I think what is happening is that you have this mental block about the car ride,” because this whole time, I was like, “What if I have the baby in the car? What if I have the baby in the car?” I heard a lot of stories about car babies, and I actually recently had a patient who had a car baby at work. 

She was like, “I think you have this mental block, and once you get to the hospital, your body is going to let you get fully into labor. So I do think you could go.” I was like, “Okay, okay. Let’s go.” I called the midwives and let them know we were coming. My favorite, favorite midwife was on, the one I had hoped this whole time was going to deliver my baby.

She was only on for a 12-hour shift, and it was already halfway through her shift. I was like, “Oh gosh. I’m glad she’s going to be there.” We drove to the hospital. It was this very hot, very bright, and humid day. I was like, “I don’t want to be here. I just want to be in a cold, dark room.”

I remember as we turned onto the street that the hospital is in and pulled in the driveway, my contractions boom, boom, boom were ramping up. I was like, “Ashley (my doula), you are so right. This is exactly what happened.” 

I got into triage. I was making a lot of noise. It was very intense at that point. They checked me. I was 4 centimeters and 100% effaced. I wasn’t too disappointed that I wasn’t further along because I was like, “This feels pretty intense. I think things are really happening.” But they said, “You picked a very popular day to give birth. There are no rooms available on labor and delivery.” I was like, “No.”

Meagan: What?

Flannery: I was especially nervous because working in the field, I’ve seen how a busy unit can really affect the care that is given. It shouldn’t be that way, but it totally is. 

Meagan: It’s the reality sometimes. 

Flannery: Yep. My sister-in-law had recently given birth on a very busy day. She had a very difficult birth, and a very not attentive staff, so that was one of the things I was really afraid of is that I was going to give birth on a super busy day, but my care was excellent thankfully. 

We eventually waited in triage for a room to be ready, and it was a tub room that became available. There was one tub room in labor and delivery. I was so excited to get in that tub. I jumped right in as soon as we got there. Not jumped, waddled right in. 

It felt so good. The water felt amazing, but I did find it very hard to maneuver and get in the right position to work through a contraction in the tub because it was weirdly shaped. I didn’t stay in there super long, but I was very surprised at how intense the contractions were which sounds silly, but they just really took over. 

I was hoping to use some coping techniques like music or my rebozo. I brought my massage gun. I brought this whole toolkit of stuff, but in the moment, all that was going through my head during a contraction was cursing and, “I need the epidural. I need the epidural.”

I was squeezing my husband’s hand so hard. My doula had this spiky, silver ball that you could use for counterpressure so I was squeezing that in my hand so hard breathing. I labored on the toilet for bit. I was in the bed. I was moving around. I could not be lying down. They were having to use continuous monitoring which I didn’t really mind. The nurse was very good about not being intrusive about that. She would just follow me around with the monitor. The midwife, who I was hoping to have, was just there with me the whole time. She was holding the monitor onto my belly and speaking kind words to me. 

I remember going through this terrible contraction and looking over at her. She is just sitting serenely in her rocking chair just looking at me. In my head, I was like, “How can you be so calm? Help me. Do something.” 

Meagan: I can relate. 

Flannery: Being present. 

Meagan: Do something. Help me.

Flannery: Help me. Help me. 

Meagan: Sometimes just being present is what you needed. 

Flannery: It is. It totally was. She was super hands-off, but in the moment, you’re like, “Come on. Somebody do something to help me.” 

Eventually, I was just sitting on the toilet. The midwife had dimmed the lights. My husband was there speaking to me. I had been making these very loud moans through each contraction, and then during one of them, I started grunting, and I knew exactly what that meant. I was pushing involuntarily. 

I had been hoping to feel the fetal ejection reflex, and I think that’s what this was because my body completely took over. There was no way that I could have not pushed during these contractions. 

The pain of the contraction was so intense, but it would go away when I pushed. Then I would just feel this really uncomfortable pressure, but at least the pain of the contraction was going away. I had been pushing for maybe 5 minutes, and my midwife was all excited. I was like, “Okay. Please, can you check me?” She was like, “No, just go with your intuition. Listen to your body.” I was like, “No. I need you to check me.” I did not want to be pushing on an incomplete cervix. She did, and I was a 9 and 100% effaced. 

She was like, “Okay, you can definitely push. That cervix is just going to melt away.” 

Yes. I tried the nitrous while I was pushing, but I really hated how it restricted my breathing. It also made me throw up everywhere. 

Meagan: Really? 

Flannery: Yes. 

Meagan: Interesting. 

Flannery: Yes. So much puke. It was so embarrassing. It was splashing on everyone’s shoes. I was like, “Oh my god. I’m so sorry.” 

I pushed on the toilet for a little bit, and then I moved over to the bed. I went over to the bed because when I was on the toilet, I felt something coming out between my legs. I reached down, and it was the bubble of amniotic fluid. It hadn’t popped yet. 

Meagan: Your bag of waters, yeah. 

Flannery: My bag of waters was coming out. I think I said to my husband, “Do you want to touch it?” He was like, “No.” 

Meagan: It just feels like a water balloon.

Flannery: It felt exactly like a water balloon. I went over to the bed. I got on my side, and I was pushing so hard just totally going with my intuition, but it wasn’t the type of peaceful breathing that people tell you to do like the J breathing or anything. There was no way I could breathe through these contractions and these pushes. 

I was totally holding my breath and bearing down, but that’s just what was right for me in the moment. They were saying, “Can you feel the baby moving down?” I was like, “No. Not at all.” I think that’s because the bag of waters was still intact. I couldn’t feel anything except this really uncomfortable pressure. They said, “Put your fingers inside of yourself and see if you can feel a baby’s head.” 

I put my fingers past the bag of waters, and I could feel the baby’s head right there. I pushed, and I could feel the baby move down. It was the most incredible, coolest moment of the birth. I loved that. 

My midwife said, “Okay, baby’s definitely feeling the squeeze.” Her heart rate was going down a little bit. She said, “Turn onto your left side, and with this next contraction, let’s have the baby.” 

I pushed as hard as I possibly could, and just felt this release of pressure. I had no idea what was going on, but I had this cold cloth over my face so I couldn’t see anybody, but I heard cheering. Then I felt this warm, wet baby come up onto my belly. I was laughing and crying, and everyone was saying, “Yay! You did it!” I was just like, “Oh my god, what happened?” 

Meagan: Just like that.

Flannery: It was surreal. It was incredible. She started crying right away. We didn’t know she was a girl. My husband looked down between her legs. We both looked at the same time and said, “It’s a girl.” I said, “I knew you were a girl.” She just stayed with me the whole time right onto my chest. It was just the best feeling. I was so, so overjoyed. 

Meagan: That is so amazing. It’s so amazing with VBAC how the whole room sometimes can just erupt with joy and, “You did it!” and screams and joyful laughs. Oh, man. 

Flannery: Yeah. It was beautiful. It was so, so intense in a way that I hadn’t been expecting it to be. It was a calm, beautiful birth, but the intensity of the contractions and the way that my body completely took over, and I was just along for the ride. I was just riding the waves. It was crazy. 

Meagan: Truly riding that wave. We talk about it in HypnoBirthing and riding the wave, but that wave came over, and like you said, your body was just like, “Okay, I’ve got this. Let’s go.” Here you went, and this baby came out pretty quickly it sounds like.

Flannery: Yeah, she was born at 7:23 PM. I had felt my first contraction at 2:00 AM or something. It wasn’t the shortest labor, but once I got to the hospital, it was 5 or 6 hours. It was pretty quick in the end there. She came out en caul. Her head did. 

Meagan: She did?

Flannery: As her body came out, it popped, so she was almost en caul I guess which I thought was so cool.

 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. That is so awesome. I love that. I’ve seen a couple in my doula career, and it is so cool-looking. A lot of people have said, “Oh, vaginal birth can’t have encaul babies.” Oh, yes they can. Yes, they can. 100%. 

Flannery: Yes. 

Meagan: I love that you had mentioned, “Once I got to the hospital–”. Sometimes I’ve had this with doula clients where I’m noticing this pattern of inconsistency and a lot of the times, the client is saying things like, “Should I go? Should I go? Is it okay to be here still? How much longer should we stay?” They are saying these questions because inside, there’s a lot going on. 

I had a client where I said, “You know what? I think we should go. I think you are going to feel safer there. It seems like you are going to feel safer there.” The second we got there, things ramped up. Doctor didn’t even make it. The baby slipped out on the bed. Seriously, the second she got there, her body released. It was almost like her epidural. Sometimes, with an epidural, we get an epidural and our body is able to relax. 

If our mind is not confident or comfortable, we can’t let our bodies sometimes. So I love that you pointed that out. 

I wanted to talk a little bit more really quickly on the types of uterine abnormalities or different types of uteruses. 

As she was saying, you have a bicornuate uterus which means it’s a heart-shaped uterus. I’m probably going to butcher these names especially if you are a provider and you are listening. I don’t really know how to say these words. There’s an arcuate uterus which is similar to a bicornuate uterus, but with less of a dip in the heart shape. It’s like an oddly shaped heart. It’s asymmetrical in my mind. That’s how I envision it. 

There’s an arcuate uterus, which means there’s a divide down the two parts of the membrane wall. Then there’s a unicornuate uterus, which is when the fallopian tube has an irregular shape to it. 

Then I always butcher this one. It’s didelphys. I don’t even know how to say it. 

Flannery: Sorry. I can’t help you on that one. 

Meagan: I’m going to stop trying. That is when you are born with two uteruses which does happen. One baby can be in one uterus, and we can have another uterus over here. Those are all abnormalities of the uteruses. 

Of course, we have different shapes, sizes, and all of the things. I wanted to just have a link in the show notes for that as well so you can read more on each of those types of uteruses. 

Then tell me if this is the right link. I found Jackson’s Chance Foundation.

Flannery: Yes. That’s what it is. 

Meagan: Why parking matters. 

Flannery: Yes. 

Meagan: It looks like this is inspired. It’s a foundation inspired by another person’s story, another NICU baby’s story. It said that–

Flannery: Yeah. I believe that Jackson’s parents set it up. 

Meagan: Yeah. Wow. This story is precious and inspiring. Wow. These parents are incredible. Then it does show that you can donate or sponsor a parking pass. They talk about the why and all of that. This is so awesome. I’m going to make sure that we have that in the show notes. 

If you know a NICU baby, or you know someone who is going to have a NICU baby, don’t be like Flannery and find out later. This is how we all learn, and this is how. We find out when it’s too late, then we have to go to show on. So, thank you for sharing that tip. I’ve actually never heard of it, but that’s probably because I’m not a NICU mom.

Flannery: Yeah. Yeah. I hope it helps someone. 

Meagan: Yes. Thank you again so much for sharing your story.

Flannery: Oh my gosh, this is amazing. Thank you so much. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“Whatever happens, I just want it to be peaceful, and I want to be present.”

Kerri is a labor and delivery nurse born and raised in Kentucky. The only thing on her first birth plan was not to have a C-section, yet it became her reality. We know many of you can relate.

She had a medically necessary induction at 36 weeks due to preeclampsia. Kerri describes her experience with getting magnesium, aka a “flu in a bag”, seeing double and going in for a C-section. Her surgery was straightforward, but Kerri felt very out of it and disconnected. 

Kerri was very intentional about her plans for a VBAC. Her birth team was on board and supported her requests. Throughout her pregnancy, Kerri’s greatest desire was to feel present for the moment of birth no matter the outcome. 

When labor stalled and baby had a hard time engaging, Kerri felt peaceful about requesting a second C-section. With things happening on her terms, Kerri’s birth was the peaceful and healing experience she hoped it would be.

Evidence Based BirthⓇ - The Evidence on VBAC

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Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. We have a CBAC story coming your way today. If you did not know what CBAC means, that is Cesarean Birth After Cesarean. This is a topic that a lot of people avoid. I don’t know, tell me, Kerri, who is sharing her story today. Do you feel like CBAC stories are sometimes avoided when you are preparing for a VBAC?

Kerri: I think so. I know I avoided that as I prepared for my own attempted VBAC. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Kerri: Yeah. I think that CBAC is something that we try to avoid because we all hope for that VBAC. 

Meagan: Yeah. We overlook it and it actually breaks my heart. I encourage everyone to listen, especially if they are wanting to VBAC, every VBAC story, but as well as every CBAC story for a lot of reasons. One, understanding maybe what led to another CBAC and two, the healing and the fact that it can be a peaceful experience. It’s not the end. There are so many things to CBAC, I think, that are missed. 

It’s the same thing with uterine rupture stories or things like that. I’m not wanting that, so I don’t want to listen to that. Now, I don’t want to shame anyone if they skip over a CBAC story, but I really encourage everybody to listen to all of these stories because they are empowering. They are uplifting, and they are going to help you grow in ways that you may not even know. 

Before we get into cute Kerri’s episode, I wanted to share a review. This was actually left a little bit ago too, actually. It was in 2022. No, 2021. It says, “Going for my VBAC after two C-section in 2022”. It says, “Thank you so much for this valuable resource. I have been listening to your podcast since early in my second pregnancy. I found out I was expecting again 9 months after my CBAC, and I was immediately and depressed that I would be going through all of that all over again very soon. I am now 14 weeks, and I’m drawing strength every day from the stories you share. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I have hope this time that it will be different.” 

Now, that’s another good note to have. Even if you do have a CBAC, that doesn’t mean that’s the end. That also may mean you find healing in that, and you want future CBACs, right? You want to schedule that CBAC. I love that note about healing and strength. That’s what all of these episodes are doing. 

Okay, Kerri. I am so happy that you are here. You are in Kentucky.

Kerri: Yes. 

Meagan: Okay, were you in Kentucky for both of your births? Are you from Kentucky?

Kerri: I have lived in the same small town my whole life. I live just outside of Lexington. It’s a little bit bigger than it used to be, but it’s still a small town to me. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Kerri: I have lived in Lexington my whole life. I gave birth at the same hospital where I was born. 

Meagan: Yeah, me too. I would say I’m boring. I’m boring. I haven’t been anywhere, but I don’t think it’s boring, actually. I love Utah. I’ve been born and raised here. I actually gave birth at the same hospital for my C-sections and with the same provider who gave birth to me. 

Kerri: Oh, that’s so funny. That’s wild. 

Meagan: Kind of crazy, huh. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing your beautiful stories. I’d love to turn the time over to you. 

Kerri: Yeah. I’m so excited to share. I’ve listened to this podcast quite a bit since my first C-section, so I’m really excited to be on today.

Meagan: Well, thank you for being here. 

Kerri: My first pregnancy was already a surprise pregnancy. Me and my husband had just gotten married, and a month and a half later found out we were pregnant. It was already quite a bit of a surprise being pregnant. You know, pregnancy went well. The first trimester went well. 

Around 28 weeks, I had gotten COVID. This was November of ‘21. COVID was still fresh. I had gotten COVID, and I made it through that. I thought everything was going well, but from that point on, I just was feeling more and more sick. I had been a nurse for a while, but I was a new nurse to labor and delivery. I was working night shifts, so I just really attributed the way I felt to working nights. I’m just pregnant. I’m working the night shifts. This is probably what’s wrong with me. 

Around 35 weeks, I just started feeling miserable. I had an appointment with a provider who wasn’t my provider, but he was a provider I had worked with. At that appointment, my blood pressure was elevated. He said, “Let’s just get a preeclampsia panel, and do a 24-hour urine just to be safe and see what’s going on.”

I did that, and I turned in my 24-hour urine. I went to work that night. That shift was miserable. I don’t know how I made it through that shift, but I did. I got off that morning, and the provider called me that morning. He was like, “You have preeclampsia. You cannot work anymore. You’re on light duty at home, and you’re being induced at 37 weeks.” 

That was already quite a bit of a shock. I had been around birth just enough as a labor and delivery nurse. I had just already in my head pictured this beautiful birth experience that you see on Instagram, and I’m like, “This is already not happening for me.” 

He tells me that. I’m home for a few days, and I’m just feeling more miserable as I’m home. After that phone call a few days later, I checked my blood pressure, and it’s severe at home. It’s over 160/110. Being the nurse I am, they say nurses make the worst patients. I was just like, “I’m going to ignore this for a little bit, and we’ll just see if this gets any better.” 

I check it again later that afternoon, and it’s still super high. I called my husband, and we decided to go to the hospital. We get there, and my blood pressure was high, but it was not severe enough to do anything about it. 

They were like, “Let’s just keep you overnight and see what you do.” Over the 24-hour period of being there for observation, my blood pressures just went up and up. I had some more severe, and they were like, “You know, it’s time to have a baby.” I was just shy of 36 weeks at this point. 

They started a magnesium infusion to help with the preeclampsia.

Meagan: Blood pressure. Ugh, did it make you feel yucky?

Kerri: Oh, yes. Magnesium is awful. I feel for anybody who has to be on that. It was awful. We call it flu in a bag, and it truly is that. 

Meagan: Flu in a bag. Okay. I’ve never heard of that, but I can understand that based off of the way I’ve seen my clients feel. 

Kerri: Yeah, that’s exactly how you feel. Flu in a bag. It just makes you feel yucky. 

We started that, and we started the induction process. We started with the Foley bulb. We put that in. That was in until the next morning, and it comes out. When it came out, I think I was 3 centimeters, but not very effaced. It was just an artificial 3, a Foley bulb 3. They were like, “You know, your cervix isn’t very favorable. Let’s do some Cytotec.”

We did a few doses of Cytotec. They rechecked me after that. It was still not very favorable. I think this was the evening at that point. They were like, “Let’s just take a break, let you have a meal, and we’ll try this again.” 

We do that, and then we start Pitocin. We did that all night. The next morning, my provider checks me. I’m finally a 4. I was ecstatic. I was like, “Oh, I’ve made some change.” 

I was really excited. They checked me. I was 4. They break my water, and they’re like, “Let’s just see what happens.” I had gotten an epidural at that point because I was already pretty miserable from being on magnesium and all of these induction agents. I was like, “I really need some rest.” I was already epiduralized. 

The nurse who was taking care of me at the time was a really good friend of mine. She was like, “Let’s do everything that we can to try to have this baby vaginally.” She did Spinning Babies. We did all of the positions that we could. They checked me again later and I was a 5. I was ecstatic, like, okay. We’re doing something there. 

A few hours later, I’m starting to feel pretty miserable, more miserable than I had felt before. I look over at the computer, and I’m seeing double. I call out to my friend. I’m like, “I don’t know if this is normal, but I’m seeing two of everything.” She was like, “No, it’s not.” 

She calls my provider. He said, “Let’s draw a magnesium level. Let’s see what’s going on.” So they did. My magnesium level was high. They decided, “Let’s just recheck you. We’ll see you if you made change. If not, we’ll have to have a section.”

They checked me. I was still a 5 at that point. They decided with everything that was going on, it was probably in the best interest of the situation to have a section. I agreed, but I was heartbroken. 

My whole pregnancy, my only birth plan was don’t have a C-section, and at that moment, that was my reality. 

Everybody who was with me that day, they were my coworkers. They witnessed me have a full-blown panic attack over it, but everybody made it through that with me. They loved on me, then we finally went back to the C-section. 

I’m pretty out of it from the magnesium at this point and just having labored so long. They started the section. I felt like I could feel more than what I probably should have been able to feel. I let them know, and once they got the baby out, they gave me ketamine just to help with my pain. 

I was knocked out for 12 hours, so I don’t remember my baby’s birth at all. 

Meagan: That’s hard. 

Kerri: Yeah. It was really hard. I feel like the moment I actually realized I had a baby was the next morning. There’s a video where I’m like, “Oh my goodness.”

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Were you feeling any better by then?

Kerri: I was still under magnesium, but I was feeling better. 

Meagan: Good. 

Kerri: The protocol, at least at the hospital that I work at in, is magnesium 24 hours postpartum just to make sure you still don’t– 

Meagan: Yes, that is how it is here too, then they’ll recheck things and if blood pressures are still elevated or anything like that, and if levels are elevated, then they’ll remain, and if not, then they’ll take you off. 

Kerri: Yeah, we did that for 24 hours. Once that was off, I finally got to go up to the mother/baby unit. I started to feel more normal at that point, but just that whole experience, I felt like I was just not even a part of. I was just there having the baby, but I didn’t feel like I was actually there having a baby. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Did that carry onto the postpartum and future as stuff to process for you, or did it feel okay? 

Kerri: That was very hard for me because I worked with birth every day. I got to see these beautiful moments of people having their baby, and I didn’t feel like I had gotten that. I don’t remember my baby being born. You know, it’s different. I had pictures, but nothing quite as good as remembering that. That was very hard, and it really affected me for a long time. 

You know, it still does. I would have loved to have been present in that moment. That just wasn’t the reality for me. 

Meagan: Yeah. Have you done things to work through that, or anything to suggest for someone who maybe have experienced that or have been put under anesthesia where they just couldn’t remember or be present in their birth?

Kerri: For me, my faith is something that is very important to me. Praying and talking with God about it has really been helpful for me. It was still a beautiful moment. I’ve come to terms with that. 

Meagan: Good. Good. 

Okay, so baby number two. Oh, I was going to ask you, with being preterm, did they do a special scar or anything, or were they able to do a regular low transverse?

Kerri: Just a regular low transverse incision. 

Meagan: Awesome. Awesome.

Kerri: Yeah. So baby number two, we knew we wanted another one, and honestly, as soon as we were in that hospital room, I remember I told my husband that I never wanted to have a C-section again. When we started thinking about number two, we were going to start working towards having a VBAC. 

When she was around 20 months, I found out I was pregnant. Prior to the pregnancy, I had done a ton of research on what is the best way to get a VBAC, and what is the best way to prevent preeclampsia which is silly because we know preeclampsia can’t necessarily be prevented. 

Meagan: Yeah, there are things we can do to try to reduce the chances, but there’s nothing that we know for sure, concrete that this is what you can do to make sure you don’t get it. 

Kerri: Yeah. My provider did have me start taking low-dose aspirin early on in the pregnancy, and I didn’t get it again, but you know, I did all of this research like, what can I do? Looking back now, I think I put too much pressure on myself to try and prevent it. 

I found out I was pregnant when she was 20 months old, and we were so excited. We were just thrilled. We just couldn’t even describe that. I was so excited to start doing what I could in the pregnancy to get my VBAC. That’s all I could think about was my VBAC. 

I remember praying to God. I just prayed that this pregnancy I could have my successful VBAC. Then as the pregnancy got closer to delivery, in my head, I’m like, “I could have another C-section. I need to start thinking about this.” 

So then I shifted my mindset. I was like, “You know, if I have to have another C-section, it’s okay. All we want is a peaceful delivery.” So that’s what I kept telling myself every day in my prayers. I was like, “Whatever happens, I just want it to be peaceful, and I want to be present.”

Meagan: Yeah, I bet that was a really big deal for you.

Kerri: Yes. I just kept saying that every day. That’s what we’re going to do. Peaceful delivery. Present delivery. I kept telling my coworkers because they were rooting for me. We were going to make this a better experience. 

My provider the whole pregnancy was great. She was very VBAC-supportive. I did a lot of research prior to the pregnancy about who I wanted to see, and I worked with these providers. It was a hard choice to make. I work with great providers, but I feel very confident in the provider I picked. She took such great care of me, and I’ll forever be grateful for her. 

Towards the end of the pregnancy, me and her had a chat about what are we going to do to get our best attempt at having a VBAC? I ultimately decided that I wanted to be an induced VBAC. Not necessarily that I wanted to be induced, but I needed the peace of mind. I already had a lot of anxiety just because of the last pregnancy, and I just needed an experience where I could at least expect something. 

This may not end in a successful VBAC, but I really want to try. We scheduled the induced VBAC, and she was like, “This might not work.” We had a lot of conversations about that. She was like, “Induced VBACs aren’t always successful,” which I appreciated her saying as a provider. I was like, “This is what I need just for my peace of mind.” 

We scheduled an induction. Everything was going great. I went in at night. I had gotten a Foley bulb again. My cervix wasn’t favorable necessarily. I was 39 weeks on the dot. Maybe if I would have waited a little longer, I would have been more favorable. At that point, I wasn’t the most favorable, but I still wanted to go through with it. I had wrapped my head around that that day was going to be her birthday and we were going to go through with it. 

We started with the Foley bulb, and it stayed in for what felt like forever. They put it in at midnight. It did not come out until 11:00 AM the next day. I was not expecting that because last time, the Foley bulb did not stay in that long. This time, I had made it to 39 weeks, and I was thinking that my cervix would do more, and it just didn’t. 

My provider came in. She was able to get it out. She broke my water, and I was at a 4 at that point. It was ready to come out, but it didn’t on its own. I wasn’t expecting that. I was expecting a little bit more. 

Meagan: That can happen. It can be in for up to 12 hours and not fall out. That can happen, but I’m sure after your previous experience, you’re like, “Wait. Why isn’t this out yet?” 

Kerri: Yeah. We did that, and I decided she was going to break my water. Me and her and my nurse who was taking care of me was a really good friend. We were like, “Let’s just get an epidural because we know that there is a bit of a higher chance for uterine rupture for being an induced VBAC or TOLAC.” 

Meagan: Were you feeling contractions at this point?

Kerri: I was. I was feeling contractions. That was something, I kept telling my husband, that I was really excited about. With the last experience, I was really out of it having been on magnesium and having gotten an epidural so early. I just didn’t even feel like I got to experience labor at all. Like I said, I didn’t feel like I was a part of that experience. I was really excited this time to be able to experience contractions. 

While they were very, very painful, I was very grateful to have that experience. 

I had asked for a few doses of fentanyl. 

Meagan: Fentanyl?

Kerri: Fentanyl, yeah. We used to do [inaudible], but right now, we have fentanyl. I had asked for a few doses of fentanyl, but I really tried to tough it out because I was like, “I really want this experience.” The whole pregnancy, I had been prepping for how I was going to manage labor while I didn’t have an epidural. I had a friend who I worked with. She is also a doula, and she is going to school to be a midwife. She had talked me through a few different things that I could do. I had really prepared, and I was really excited to be able to experience some contractions. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Kerri: But we had decided, “Let’s get an epidural just to be safe.” We got an epidural, and everything was smooth sailing. We got the epidural. We started some Pitocin. I had asked for peace of mind for me, an IUPC which is the intrauterine contraction monitor because I wanted to know what my uterus was doing. If I was going to be an induced VBAC and I’m going to have a higher risk of rupture, I wanted to know exactly what my uterus was doing, so I asked for one of those to be put in. They put one in. My contractions were adequate. We were moving along. 

I’m just ecstatic at this point because I’m like, “I have never had adequate contractions. Last time, I made progress, but nothing like this.” I was very, very excited. 

Throughout the course of the day, me and my friend who was taking care of me decided that we were going to do every Spinning Babies position that we could do. My epidural was just perfect enough. I was able to help move by myself and do all of these positions that I had planned on doing. It was great. I was so excited. 

They checked me, and I was a 5. I was excited that I had made it a little bit farther than what I had thought I would because last time, I had stayed at a 5 forever. I was at a 5, and I was expecting to just keep making progress. 

A few hours later, they checked me again, and I was still a 5. My provider is like, “Your pelvis feels very tight, and your baby’s head is not applied at all.” So then, I felt crushed in that moment. I had been planning on having this successful VBAC, and it doesn’t feel like it’s going to happen. 

Prior to the induction, I had been living in the Miles Circuit and doing everything I could to get her the best engaged she could be. She wasn’t doing it. 

She said, “We’ll give it a few more hours.” 

Meagan: What were your MVUs at this point? Sorry, I just interrupted you. 

Kerri: I think they were 200. They were adequate. 

Meagan: Mhmm, cool. 

Kerri: My contractions had been adequate for a while, and I wasn’t on very much Pit. 

Meagan: Good. 

Kerri: I was thinking that things were going great. She was like, “We can keep going if you want. I’m going to stay with you. I’m going to do your delivery regardless of the outcome.” We decided we were going to keep going. A few hours later, I get checked again. I’m still 5. Her head’s still not applied. My friend who was taking care of me was about to leave because her shift was over. 

She was like, “We can call it right now, or we can give it another shot.” She said, “You’ll never get this experience again, so if you want to keep going, keep going, but if you don’t, it’s fine.”

Kerri: I decided, “I want to keep trying.” I kept trying. Then a few hours later, I was checked again. I was still a 5. Her head was still not engaged, so we decided that we were going to have another C-section. That was heartbreaking. 

I remember in the moment feeling a little heartbroken, but also feeling at peace about it all in one. 

Meagan: Yeah, which is important. 

Kerri: Yeah. We go back for the section. I was nervous about having another section just because my first one was so traumatizing. I wasn’t sure how it was going to go. I was really nervous about anesthesia. Is it going to hurt this time? Am I going to be knocked out because I’m feeling too much? 

The anesthesiologist who took care of me decided, “Let’s just give you a spinal.” My epidural had fallen out actually, so she said, “Let’s do a spina. Let’s make sure you are the most comfortable you can be.” They did that. They started the section. I couldn’t feel anything which I’m already thrilled for. 

I remember just laying there, and I felt so present during the whole thing. My baby came out, and I remember being a part of that moment. There was a clear drape, so I was able to see what was going on. My provider– I feel like we had developed such a good bond. She did everything to make sure that it was a good experience for me and to make sure I was present. 

Something that was important to me was that my baby would be with me a little bit longer while I was in the OR. I didn’t have my baby with me last time, so I really wanted that. I didn’t necessarily do skin-to-skin, but I got to hold her. She got to be with me the whole time, and it was perfect. 

She got to be with me during recovery. That whole birthing experience was just the most beautiful thing.

Meagan: Good. So you have been able to walk away feeling positive about a birth experience. 

Kerri: Yes. That’s not something I thought I would get with a C-section. 

After my first, I had a lot of postpartum anxiety. I had very negative feelings towards C-sections. I didn’t enjoy seeing my scar. To me, that was just a reminder of what my body had done to me. I felt betrayed by my body, and for the longest time, I just was ashamed of the fact that I had a C-section. 

After that experience with my second, I was very proud that I did have a C-section because reality hit me that this isn’t the most ideal way to give birth to a baby, but it happens, and thank God they are available, and I have two beautiful babies because of my C-sections, so I’m very, very thankful for them now. 

Meagan: Yes, good. Good. 

Kerri: When my husband and I decide to have another one, I’m like, “This will be great because I think that for me, I’ll just have another repeat section, and it will be scheduled. It’s going to be great, and I’m excited about it.” But it’s just something to be able to look back and be able to think of this as such a positive experience as opposed to my first. I wasn’t proud of my birth story at all. It was something I carried with me for a long time, and now, I’m thankful that I can have a different perspective about it. Even about my first, my first birth was beautiful in its own way.

Meagan: Yeah. It’s hard because you don’t want to only think about those births as negative or traumatic. You want to pick out the positivity from it, but sometimes it is hard to see all of that, so it’s been so great to hear that you– one, it sounds like with your labor, it really was a lot of your choice along the way. You decided this was something you wanted. Your team went with you and then walked with you along the way. In the end, it was able to be something that was a lot more healing. 

Even though it was still a Cesarean, it was a healing experience for you. You got to have your baby that whole time, and you got to grow through that experience. Like you said, you may choose to have a third C-section, and that’s okay. I think that’s one of the things I love about this podcast is that it’s not if you choose a C-section, you are shamed. That’s just not how it is. 

Everyone needs to choose what is best for them and their individual circumstances. I love that you’ve been able to go from the furthest end of the extreme to coming back, and then possibly if you have another baby, it sounds like something that you are already looking forward to having an even different experience. I love that you’ve been able to have that and you can share these stories and you can hold onto these good feelings because it really is important. 

Kerri: Yes. Even as a labor and delivery nurse, I feel more positive about taking care of women who have C-sections because for the longest time, every time I went into the OR, it brought up feelings from my own first C-section. It was hard to be the best nurse that I could be when I was dealing with my own feelings, so I’m thankful now that I have this perspective of, “This is beautiful in its own way.” Every birth is beautiful. You’re bringing your baby into the world. Who cares how it happens? 

I think we get so wrapped up in God made our bodies to give birth a certain way, and that’s just not the reality for some people. I’m thankful we live in a society where C-sections are readily available and we can have them. They can be just as beautiful.

Meagan: Yeah. CBACs really can be. My second C-section was very, very healing. I think it was exactly what I needed to have healing from my first birth that I didn’t realize I didn’t heal from. I was really, really grateful that I had the experience. Again, it wasn’t the birth I desired, but it was such a better and healing experience for me. I was really, really grateful for those. 

Okay, I have two things that I want to talk about. One is preeclampsia. Not even just preeclampsia, but COVID. I was just wondering, as a labor and delivery nurse, have you seen things like preeclampsia or placental issues or anything like that from people who have had COVID during pregnancy? 

Rebecca Dekker has such an incredible blog, and I’m going to make sure to link it here. I have seen this weird connection with pre-e with a placenta or placental issues that have had COVID. I was just curious if you’ve seen anything like that. 

Kerri: You know, I feel like that is something that we’ve seen more of. I will say I started working as a labor and delivery nurse in 2021, so I can’t speak for what nurses saw prior to this, but I do feel like I see a great deal of preeclampsia, especially during that COVID time. Women were having more complications. More women are getting more sick. I don’t know if there’s a correlation, but I will say that as far as pregnancy goes, it does seem like a lot of pregnancies are becoming more high-risk.

Meagan: Because of that? Because of COVID?

Kerri: I don’t know if it’s necessarily COVID or just the way we eat, the way we take care of ourselves, but I feel like during COVID, there were a higher number of combinations whether there’s a correlation or not. 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s interesting. I just barely read the most recent update. I need to dive into that more, but I was wondering as a labor and delivery nurse if you had seen that. 

You mentioned with your first that they had tested you, and your magnesium levels were too high. Are there things that can reduce magnesium levels? Obviously, maybe lowering the magnesium levels that are given, but are there things that can be done in that situation to lower their magnesium levels?

Kerri: If your magnesium level is high, we can give you the reversal drug which is calcium gluconate. We can give you that, but we are already inducing, you and it’s high, and you’re not making very much progress, at that point–

Meagan: The provider may not be wanting to do that. 

Kerri: Yeah, delivery is the best option.

Meagan: Yeah, for preeclampsia, which we do know. I was just wondering if there was such a thing that could help. 

Kerri: Yeah. Ideally, just do what you can to deliver. But you know, that’s something that people should talk to their provider about in that moment. 

Meagan: Yeah. I agree. I agree. 

Then last but not least, I just wanted to share a little bit more because I think a lot of people do question induction and VBAC. What are the risks? Sometimes, the risks seem astronomical, and sometimes they are not to some people. Everyone takes it differently. I wanted to share some evidence on that. 

With the risk of induction, it does increase just like you had mentioned. It does increase the risk of uterine rupture when we are induced. It’s about a 1.1% if you have Pitocin and about a 2% if you have prostaglandins, and then of course, we know misoprostol. How do you say that?

Kerri: Misoprostol, but however you want. 

Meagan: Yeah. I saw misoprostol, but I’ve heard people say MYsoprostol. It is about 6%. It definitely increases with certain things that you do. It’s about a 1.1%. Uterine rupture in general is just around 1%. It increases it ever so slightly, but it’s really important to take the right precautions. A Foley bulb is a fantastic way to start jumpstarting labor, but sometimes it does need to have a little bit of an opening, at least 1 centimeter. 

Kerri: Where I work, we don’t do Cytotec for TOLACs. 

Meagan: Most people shouldn’t.. 

Kerri: It’s a 1 to 1 assignment. Your nurse who is taking care of you wouldn’t have another patient. 

Meagan: Interesting. 

Kerri: They make sure that all hands are on you and make sure that your uterus is okay. When it came down to me when I was thinking about wanting to TOLAC and hopefully have a VBAC, I looked at the risk. I think it’s important. I listened to a podcast. I think it was by Jordan Lee Doulie. She had an OB on her podcast talking about VBAC. He said, “It’s important to remember that there is a risk whether you’re having a repeat section or you’re having a TOLAC.”

I really took that to heart. For me, the risk of uterine rupture is small enough that I want to try. I know that I’m going to be in a hospital. I know I’m going to be monitored, and if that’s something that’s happening, I know I’ll be taken care of quickly. I was okay taking the risk. I think that has to be such an individual choice. It does carry risk as well, so that’s why I needed to at least give it a shot. 

I’m somebody that I fully support whoever wants to have a VBAC after two sections, but for me, that’s not something I want to do. But as with everything, you have to look at both sides of it and make your decision. 

Meagan: Yeah. I think that’s what we talk about on this podcast. Learn the risks. Learn the facts. Learn what the evidence says, and then follow your heart. What feels right? I appreciate you so much for coming on and sharing your journey. I do love how much you were able to be a part of your birth that second, and then also your postpartum experience is so important. 

Kerri: Oh yeah. I’m 11 weeks postpartum now, and I just have to say that my mental health this time is so much better, and my recovery post-C-section was so much better. I really have such positive things to say. It was such a good experience. I’m forever grateful for everybody who took care of me. I’m forever grateful for my provider. I just love her dearly and am just so thankful for her. 

Meagan: Good. I’m so grateful for you. I’m so glad you had that support and that loving team. Thank you again for sharing.

Kerri: Yes. Thank you so much for having me on here.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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One of our team members, Paige, joins us today to share our first maternal assisted Cesarean story on the podcast! Our favorite Julie joins too sharing her perspective as Paige’s birth photographer. 

Paige tried three times to have the vaginal birth of her dreams. Each time ended in emergency Cesareans due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones. Each time, she missed the golden hour that she so desperately craved. Each time, she learned more and more about birth.

With her fourth baby, she exchanged her VBAC dream for a new one. After hearing about maternal assisted Cesareans, she decided to do all she could to pursue one fully knowing it may not happen. 

But when it did, it was everything she hoped it would be and more. 

Paige's Full Birth Video

Houm Clinic

Dayana Harrison Birth Services

Julie Francom Birth Photography

YouTube Video: Maternal Assisted Caesarean Section - The Birth of Betty Mae

The VBAC Link Podcast Episode 220: Dr. Natalie Elphinstone & MACs

The Birth Hour Episode 875: Nicole's Maternal Assisted Cesarean in Michigan

Baby Baking & Kid Raising Podcast Episode 6: MACs with Lauren Brenton

Australian Birth Stories Podcast: All Maternal Assisted Cesarean Episodes

YouTube Video: Nottingham University Hospitals Maternity Gentle C-section

CBAC Support Facebook Community 

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Oh my gosh, you guys. Today is a very special day. It’s a very, very special day. We have our own team member, Paige. If you guys haven’t already seen the video floating around, go to Instagram today and watch what we’ve got posted. We have Paige, and we have Julie, and they are actually in Korea. 

Now, Paige lives in Korea. Julie flew to Korea to be the photographer for Paige. I was over here in Utah having FOMO as they were Marco Poloing me when she was in labor. You guys, I am so excited. I can’t explain to you the love that I have for Paige. She has been on our team for so many years. I’m getting emotional. I have seen this woman transform into the most amazing, strong individual. She has created something so special for her family, and I think, for Korea. 

This is our first official Maternal Assisted Cesarean story on the podcast. Seriously, my eyes are all watery. I just cannot wait to hear this story. Julie was just saying how she’s been dying wanting to call me this week while she has been in Korea, but she didn’t want to share her story because it is Paige’s story, but I love that I get to have both of them on the show. 

So hello, you guys. I’m sorry. I just am rambling. 

Paige: Hi. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. Okay. We have Paige. We have Julie. You guys know who they are. Julie, obviously, has been with The VBAC Link for a long time, and so has Paige.

Julie: Been with The VBAC Link for a long time? Yeah.

Meagan: Yeah, sorry. You created it. 

Julie: We created it. 

Meagan: Yeah, sorry. I’m thinking of Paige. Paige has been with The VBAC Link for a long time. If you didn’t know, she actually heads the CBAC group, the CBAC Link Community on Facebook, and she transcribes all of these incredible episodes. So thank you, Paige, and welcome everybody.

Paige: Thank you. So yeah, I’m just sitting here in my little corner of The VBAC Link team doing my transcribing which I feel like maybe is just a little drop in the birth world bucket until something more happens for me. I’ve been with The VBAC Link for the last 4 years, and I feel like it’s my way of preserving these stories. Spending time with the women on the podcast is such an honor, and it’s just one of my favorite things to do. I’ve learned so much, and truly, we’ll get into it, but I wouldn’t have had this birth experience in the same way if it were not for The VBAC Link and for being on the team. 

So truly, thank you to both of you. You’ve changed my life. 

All right, what’s that?

Meagan: I was going to say that you’ve made our life better. 

Paige: Aw, thank you.

Julie: Yes, absolutely. It is so cool to see this. Me and Paige were just talking last night about this and how it’s kind of a full-circle moment. We were going over her other births and how we got here and how she got here. It’s just so cool. I am so thrilled about how everything played out. There were so many little miracles. I think miracles is not the right word. There were so many special blessings and things that led her to this point. I cannot wait to hear all of it from her perspective. It’s so fun to be here and share on the podcast and really, this story is going to change lives. It’s going to change lives. It’s going to change birth. It is going to be something that people talk about and use as inspiration and hope as they prepare for their own births, no matter how they birth because there’s a lot of advocacy involved. 

I think that’s the biggest thing. There’s a lot of advocacy. Paige did a lot of advocating for herself and what she wanted. It doesn’t have to be literally the same way that she birthed for anybody to take inspiration from it, so I would just encourage everybody to listen because she is such a good example of fighting for what she wants, and shifting and rolling with the punches. 

I am just so inspired by Paige. You mentioned it too, Meagan. I am just so inspired by how she has approached all of this. Yeah, there are lots of life lessons. Lots of life lessons in this birth. 

Meagan: Yes.

Julie: Stay tuned, everybody. It’s a good one.

Meagan: All right, Ms. Paige. We’re turning the time over to you. Let’s hear it because I cannot wait. 

Paige: Okay, so I’m going to start with a brief overview of my first three births. I’m a mom to four boys. I never thought that would be my story, with four C-sections. I never thought that would be my story, but it is, and it’s beautiful. 

For my first birth, I got pregnant in September 2015. We were living in Hawaii at the time, but moved to Lawton, Oklahoma. I received prenatal care there at the Army hospital. It was pretty straightforward, just the What to Expect When You’re Expecting type prep. They have this program called the New Parent Support Program which is really great for new families.  

A nurse comes to your home, educates you, and gives you resources. I did that. That was really nice. I had a friend who was a doula. We took a hospital childbirth class and watched things like The Business of Being Born, but other than that, I was mostly just really afraid of childbirth in general. 

I was afraid of dying. I just wanted to survive. I didn’t really have any specific birth preferences. I have struggled with anxiety and panic attacks throughout my life, so I thought that if I could just survive, that would be a big win. 

My OB was a family friend, and I felt very safe with him. He had a great bedside manner. I didn’t really push any questions. I just trusted him fully and completely. 

At 34 and 6, I noticed that I started leaking fluids. My New Parent Support Program nurse had advised me that if I had noticed any kind of new discharge or anything like that– colorless, odorless fluid to go and get it checked out immediately. 

So I did. My husband drove me. I remember I had not eaten lunch, but it was lunchtime. I was like, “Oh, just drop me off. This will be fast, then we will go get lunch.” 

The midwife there tested the fluids and confirmed it was amniotic fluid. I remember my OB walked in. He said, “You are leaking amniotic fluid. We need to have this baby today. The baby will be fine at 35 weeks, and it’s better for the baby to come than for you to stay pregnant basically and risk an infection.” 

So I was like, “Oh, okay. Yeah. I trust you.” 

I got a steroid shot for lung development at 35 weeks. Then they started me on an IV with antibiotics because I didn’t have my GBS test back yet. Then he also told me that the Army hospital there did not have a NICU to support a 35-weeker and that I would need to be transferred to the civilian hospital in town. 

So I would have to be transferred. Since I was already on an IV, they were just going to do it via ambulance. It was my first time ever riding in an ambulance. He also said that he legally wouldn’t be able to deliver me, but he would go with me and help me make decisions. That was really nice of him to go, but still just the sheer fact that I was going to be riding in an amublance for the first time, I was going to be having the baby that day, and then I was going to have a completely new doctor, was just sheer overload going into a birth that I was already afraid of. 

Yeah, it was not the best circumstances for a successful induction. 

I arrived at the hospital. I met the doctor very briefly. I called my doula friend. She came and helped me. We did what we could, but ultimately, my body was just not showing any signs of being ready. I had no contractions at all. I was completely closed and not even soft. No dilation. My cervix was just not showing any signs of progress. 

After about 14 hours on Pit, they came in. I remember I had the dull cramping from the Pit, but nothing really intense. I also just remember being so painfully hungry, and they wouldn’t let me each. But since I hadn’t had lunch, I was just so hungry where you get the body chills and stuff. 

Anyway, the doctor came in, said he was having decels. He recommended having a C-section because my water had been broken for over 12 hours. I consented. I was so afraid. I remember when they were putting in the spinal, I was just heaving sobs into this poor nurse. 

You go in and prep. The C-section itself was fine. My arms were strapped down. I didn’t feel pain, but I remember it was like an elephant was sitting on my chest. It was like, “Oh, it just feels like somebody’s sitting on my chest.” It wasn’t horrible, and I was pleasantly surprised by that. 

But then, he was whisked away to the NICU. I briefly saw him swaddled with a hat on, then he was whisked away. No skin-to-skin for my husband or me, obviously. 

He was 4 pounds, 14 ounces at birth. They wouldn’t let me go see him until I felt ready to go. I was just so swollen from all of the fluids. I was so nauseous anytime I would sit up. I just was not ready in any state to try to go walk or be wheeled to the NICU. Finally, 36 hours after delivery, I was able to meet him. We named him before that over FaceTime, but he was in the NICU for 7 days. 

I wasn’t traumatized because I survived and that was my goal. I met my goal, and I was really proud of myself for facing the fear, but hoped for something different the next time. 

With the second birth, I got pregnant in July of 2017. I had a subchorionic hemorrhage early on that resolved. We were in Texas at the time. It was Fort Hood back then, but I met with many different OB providers at the Army hospital on base there. 

I felt okay with it because I had a neighbor who was going for a VBAC after two C-sections. She was really supported, and then she had a successful experience there. Because of my 35-week PPROM, they suggested that I go on the Makena progesterone shots once a week from 16 to 36 weeks. I did that. 

They worked very, very well. I switched to the midwife track because everything was going fine. The midwives were really great. They were really holistic. They supported inducing a VBAC if needed, but they also supported me going into spontaneous labor past 41 weeks. I made it to 41 and 5. 

The VBAC Link was not a thing back then yet, so I did not have that resource, but I did read Ina May’s Guide to Childbirth and the Natural Childbirth the Bradley Way. I read The Birth Partner. I kind of started dipping my toes into real birth education. I was learning about the physiological process of birth, learning how to do it without being afraid, and learning to trust my body. 

It was really empowering. It was the prep that I needed at that time. I didn’t know about bodywork. I ended up having prodromal labor for about a week. It was pretty intense, but I didn’t know anything about positioning, posterior, or Spinning Babies. I did find that out right at the end as I was going through it, but I didn’t do chiro or any of that. 

I finally went in for an induction at 41+5 in April 2018. I ended up having to go with an OB on call because the midwife didn’t feel comfortable with the NSTs that she saw, so she didn’t want to take me on. I was like, “Oh, dangit.” The OB who was there was one who I wasn’t really super comfortable with. But he was like, “Oh, well I know you really want a VBAC. We’ll try to get that for you.” I was like, “Okay.”

I got a Foley. I was barely a 1, but they got a Foley in and I progressed very quickly. I got to a 5 within a couple of hours. Things were going really great. They were very normal labor patterns. I felt like I was managing the contractions really well. I did consent to artificial rupture of membranes, then labored a little while longer. I got an epidural at 7 centimeters. I was told, “Oh, we just had a mom who got an epidural. She relaxed, and the baby came right away.” 

You hear that and you’re like, “Oh, I want that. Yes.” So I did that. I got the epidural at about 6:30ish, and then between that half hour, his heart just wasn’t doing well. They were flipping me. I got an amnioinfusion. I got a fetal scalp electrode. I got an IUPC, all the things. Then they gave me oxygen. 

It was probably about 7:00. He had a prolonged decel. I was lying flat and there were people all around me. The nurse was just like, “We need him now. Do you consent to a C-section?” I was like, “Yes.” Then I surrendered and let it go. I was like, “There goes the VBAC. This is just what needs to happen.” He was born at 7:09, and I was born under general anesthesia for that one. 

His APGARS were 8/9. My husband was left alone during that surgery. We do have pictures of him holding my son and doing skin-to-skin at 7:27, so about 20 minutes after he was born. I woke up and got to hold him at about 8:45, so about an hour and a half after he was born. I remember it was just really hard to talk after being intubated, but they let me breastfeed right away. 

I was disappointed, but I don’t feel like I had a lot of trauma from that just because I was so empowered. I ended up ultimately making it to an 8. It was so fun for me to see what my body could do. I was like, “Oh, this just means that I was meant for a VBAC after two C-sections. That’s what it meant.” 

Right then in the OR, or I guess it was the recovery room. I committed that that was going to be my story. I was like, “Oh yeah. That’s just what it’s meant to be. That’s why it didn’t work out.” I was so empowered. 

Then when I got pregnant for the third time in September 2019, we were in Germany. We had just moved there. I hit the ground running. I hired a doula right away and a backup doula. The prenatal care was at this small, tiny clinic in a town called Parsberg. I chose not to get progesterone shots. I was like, “I was 41+5. I think I’ll be okay without them.” 

Yep, that’s when I discovered The VBAC Link and all of the birth podcasts. I just became obsessed listening all the time, taking notes. I did the bodywork. I watched tons of birth videos. I did cranioscral therapy, chiropractic, and Spinning Babies. I took The VBAC Link Parents Course. I read lots of books. I switched my insurance. I took vitamins. I consumed it all, and I loved it. 

Every time I did something, I felt like my intuition was confirming that I was on the right path. I specifically would manifest, visualize, and pray, and I just was on this high every time. I feel like that’s your intuition confirming to you that you’re on the right path. If you feel those things, that’s a good sign. You do want to follow that. 

Meagan: 100%. 

Paige: I did. Then, COVID. It was September 2019 when I got pregnant. Things were fine, fine, fine, and then COVID started happening. 

In March, I flew home to Denver to stay with my in-laws. We were supposed to move to Colorado in the spring anyway. My husband was not allowed to come with me. There was a travel ban for 90 days. I just did not want to get stuck in that, so I flew out very quickly with my boys– my two boys. I was 27 weeks pregnant and was living in my in-laws basement. 

That’s a whole thing. COVID was a whole thing for everybody. But it was a scary time and stressful. I didn’t know if my husband would be able to make it to the birth, but he was granted an exception to policy leave where he was able to come home. He would have to go back. That was the contingency. 

But I had rebuilt my team. I had found new bodyworkers. I found a new doula and a new backup doula. I found a team of midwives who were really VBA2C supportive. They were saying things like, “When you get your VBAC,” not if. They really supported all the things, so I felt really comfortable with them. 

I lost my mucus plug and had bloody show on June 8th. I was 40 weeks. That was my due date. My water broke that night at 11:00 PM. I had a small pop, so it was just a litte bit. I was laboring at home. Nothing really was picking up, but on June 9th, at 40+1, I went into the hospital around 3:00 PM. Labor started picking up pretty quickly after that. 

About an hour and a half later, my waters gushed everywhere which was really thrilling for me to experience the big gush. I was not very far along, though. My progress is just very slow, but they were not rushing me at all. They were like, “We’ll stay patient. We will stay very patient. There is no rush. As long as baby is doing well, we’ll just let you do your thing.” 

My doula was there. After my waters broke, my contractions started coupling on top of each other and getting very intense. They were quite long. I started feeling really lightheaded and dizzy. I tried to sit on the toilet and just felt like I was going to pass out. I threw up a few times. I knew it was time to get some pain relief. 

They offered the walking epidural option which I took at about 8:00 PM. Baby was doing great. I was really worried about getting the epidural again because I felt like that’s what had caused the craziness before, but he was doing great. 

At 2:00 AM, he started not doing great. He wasn’t tolerating the contractions well. I was like, “Oh, not again. What?” I was only 4 centimeters. I just knew that we needed to go in again. I didn’t know why, but I was so sad. I didn’t want another crash, so I did want to prevent another crash. I knew that if it was going to be a heart thing, I didn’t want to mess with that. 

Especially knowing the signs of pain and coupling contractions and things like that, it just seemed like he was telling me that he needed to come. 

I consented to the OR and to the C-section. I was wheeled to the OR. I remember as I was being wheeled in, I was just thinking, “This is not what I want. This is not what I want. This is not what I want.” I was so sad. 

He was born about an hour later. I was so drowsy. I was so tired. I was not present at all. I did not feel strong enough to hold him. My husband held him. I briefly brushed his face. He was wearing his little hat and was swaddled, then they took him to the recovery room. The doula was not allowed in the OR. It was actually a miracle she was allowed at all because they had just lifted the doula ban the week before for COVID. 

I was like, “Okay, the baby will be in there with her.” I’m not sure why they wouldn’t let the baby just stay with Sam, but it’s okay. I needed his support. I was really happy that he was there. Closure took longer than usual. They said I had pretty thick adhesions, so I was just laying there trying everything to stay awake. I was fighting so hard. I remember reading words on the light and looking at the letters and just going over the letters in my mind and trying to stay awake. I was fighting so hard to stay awake. 

I finally got to hold him at 4:00 AM in the recovery room. It was still about an hour after he was born. I missed the golden hour again. I was so sad. I was so sad for a third time to miss it. That recovery was really hard. 

In the hospital, I was so heartbroken. The trauma this time really hit me emotionally and spiritually. It was physically a lot more traumatic on my body for whatever reason. I mean, just the sheer labor was so intense. My incision was black and blue and puffy. I couldn’t walk normally and I didn’t feel normal for 5 or 6 weeks, but I also feel like it’s because I was so sad. I think how sad you are really does affect how you feel physically. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. 

Paige: I do remember specifically too, my first shower there. My husband had to really help me walk over. I was so sticky from all of the sensors and monitors. He was so tenderly trying to help me wash them off. I was just sobbing. I was so sad. I felt so broken and so vulnerable. It was a beautiful time for my husband to be there and carry me because he knew how badly I wanted the VBAC that time and for him to just carry me through that. 

But going home, I went home to my in-laws' basement. It was dark. I didn’t have a support village because it was COVID. COVID moms know what that was like. 

Anyway, ultimately, I did reach out to Meagan and Julie. That’s when the CBAC group was started. I was like, “Is there any way we could start a CBAC support group where CBAC moms can connect?” You guys were so warm and welcoming. Immediately you were like, “Yes! Why hadn’t we thought of that?” Julie, you were so gung-ho about that. I was able to connect to other moms through there which was so healing. 

Anyway, that was the third story. Then the time between three and four was really, really pivotal for me. The healing that I felt I needed before even thinking about trying to get pregnant was where I feel like this all really starts. 

When you don’t get the birth that you hoped for or when you don’t get a VBAC, you just feel embarrassed. You feel ashamed. You feel broken. You feel like your intuition doubted you. You feel dumb. I’ve seen many women comment how family members would be like, “Oh, I knew it wasn’t going to happen for you.” It’s hard. It’s really hard. You feel very, very broken.

I knew that I had to show up for myself and still give myself grace. For this birth, it was good for me because I was able to face not failure, but being wrong. I was able to face being wrong and show myself that I could still be there. 

Anyway, I started physically diving into healing through pelvic PT and doing a lot of scar adhesion work. The dolphin neurostimulation tools if you haven’t heard about those are fantastic. I feel like they worked much better for me than scar massage. I wish I had a provider here now who would do it. I think maybe that would have helped this pregnancy and birth, but it helped my recovery so much.

I started having really bad panic attacks and postpartum anxiety, so I went to talk therapy. I got on medication. I went to a chiropractor again. The thing that really, really helped my healing was joining a gym and falling in love with exercise again. 

I got into all of the things, the yoga, running, learning how to lift, and started really pushing my body again and trusting my body again. I didn’t expect exercise to heal that relationship with my body, but I feel like it really did. 

I learned again that I am physically strong which was really, really nice. I started signing up for some races. I ran my first half marathon. I had a lot of emotional releases during yoga. There was one song that came on one time during a yoga practice. It said, “You can’t rush your healing. Darkness has its teaching.” I loved that so much. I just started crying. I was just like, “Let it out.”

Part of healing is welcoming the grief when it comes, processing it, and taking it a little bit of a time. It’s such a process. You get little glimmers of understanding, but as you keep committing yourself to looking for that and looking for the understanding, it does come. I truly believe that. 

Anyway, life went on. There is a four-year gap in between my third and my fourth which I really needed. We moved to Korea in that time. We moved to Korea last June, and it’s just been lovely. We knew that we wanted one more. I knew I was so happy with the prep and how vigorously I did it. I was proud of myself for that and I knew that I wanted to do it the same way.

I knew that after everything I learned, even if it was going to be a C-section, I couldn’t just show up to the hospital and have them take my baby. I knew too much. I was like, “I know that there are better ways. I know that providers practice differently from place to place. I know it’s not all equal. I know every provider does things differently, even with C-sections.” 

I started watching videos, and I saw that even the way they performed their C-sections was not the same. I wanted to be really actively involved in how they practiced, and how I was going to be a part of it. My goals for this time were not necessarily VBAC or C-section. I never closed the door completely. I was like, “You never know. Maybe VBA3C, maybe that’s my story. Who knows?” 

However, I did find the episode by Dr. Natalie Elphinstone. As I was transcribing that one, my fire for birth that I held felt for VBAC was coming to life again. That intuition was speaking to me, and I had not felt that fire in a long time. That was the first whisperings of, “You should try this. You should go for this.” 

The goals that I had for this baby were to be very intentional. I wanted the golden hour. I had to have the golden hour. I had to hold my baby first or within an hour. Please, oh my gosh. I carried so much guilt for not having that three times over. 

I also wanted to be treated like I mattered. I did not want to be part of a rotation. I wanted continuity of care. I did not want to feel like I was just being shuffled through a system. Whether it was a hospital or not, I knew that I wanted to feel special. Lo and behold, did I know how special I would feel at my sweet birth center. 

Okay, so with the intention thing, just the pieces of this birth story with number four started falling into place so specifically. I can’t deny that spirituality was a big part of this because with number three, my prayers had been very, very specific. I knew that God knew what I wanted. I knew it. I knew that because I didn’t get it, there was a specific reason why. That’s the only thing I could cling to. 

As things specifically started falling into place, it started to confirm to me that this was my path and these were the reasons why the other things happened the way they did. 

But anyway, I got pregnant very quickly with this baby. It was the first time that it wasn’t a total surprise which was really fun. I had been taking tests since I knew the day that I ovulated, and then I was just taking tests watching, watching, and watching. I was able to see the first faint line which was so fun. I had always wanted that. I had wanted that moment of, “Oh my gosh, I’m pregnant,” where before it was like, “What? I’m not quite ready,” but I was still excited. 

That was really fun for that. The Korea birth culture here is very intense. The C-section rate is 50-60%. There are constantly stories being shared on these local pregnancy pages of women just having the most traumatic experiences and my heart aches for them. It’s very routine for doctors to suggest first-time moms to, “Go have a C-section. Your baby is big,” and not even trying to labor. Most of it is because there is a doctor’s strike going on here. There is a limited number of providers. They are stressed. They don’t allow husbands typically in the OR, and very routinely, they are under anesthesia. 

Then after birth, babies are typically taken away to nurseries, and then postpartum recovery is in an open bay type thing. 

Meagan: Like, combined? 

Paige: Exactly, yeah. Your C-section stays are typically about 8 days. I wanted to explore options. We have an Army hospital here that is pretty big and does provide labor and delivery services, but they’re often maxed out so you’re referred off post. 

I did not feel comfortable going to any of the places that they typically referred to just from stories I had heard. That’s all it takes for me now. I just hear one story and I’m like, “Nope, no thank you.” I know my red flags very quickly now. 

I went to a tour at this birth center called Houm. It’s spelled H-O-U-M. At 8 weeks, I went to go tour it. I noticed a lot of green flags, not red ones where I was just like, “Oh, I’m just going to take a note of that.” 

Some of the green flags from my tour as I walked in were how I felt right when you stepped off the elevator. It’s this calm energy. The lighting is so beautiful. It’s such a lovely set up right when you walk in. You take off your shoes because you are in Korea. You take off your shoes, then multiple staff members greeted me with a hug. 

That’s when I met Dayana Harrison who I later ended up hiring as my doula, but she also served as my midwife. She is a student midwife working there right now. She took me on the tour. They have queen-sized beds in their labor rooms. The whole floor was dim and so quiet. It did not have a hospital vibe at all, but they do have an OR on site. I was like, “Oh, this is lovely.” They offer epidural. 

They have huge birthing tubs with the rope attached from the ceiling. They are so beautiful. Yeah, it’s in each room. Then the OR on site does not feel like a hospital OR. It’s smaller. They keep it warmer. It feels like– I don’t know. It just had such a homey feeling. That’s the best way I can describe it. 

Then some of the things I asked about, in their routine gentle Cesareans, moms routinely get skin-to-skin immediately. They have a little cut open in the curtain where baby is slid through right on your chest. They routinely would keep the placenta attached to the baby in the OR which is–

Meagan: Almost not heard of. 

Paige: Since posting that video, I can’t believe how many messages of, “How did you do that?” That’s revolutionary in itself. That was a huge green flag where I was like, “Oh my gosh, what?” Typically, what is it? Why do they say you can’t do that? Is it because the incision is open too long?

Meagan: Yeah. They don’t even allow delayed cord clamping most of the time. They just milk it because it’s a major surgery. The more time the mom is exposed and open, the higher chance they have of things like infection. Once baby is out, they really want to wrap it up and finish it to be complete. Yeah. To actually leave a placenta attached to a baby is unheard of. It really is unheard of in a Cesarean. 

Paige: Yeah. So that was super awesome. Then they let you keep the baby. He encourages C-sections past 39 weeks. That’s not a routine hard and stop final date. He encourages going into labor before saying that it’s good for the baby. He encourages breastfeeding in the OR. The head OB, his name is Dr. Chung. He is also an IBCLC which I thought was so awesome. So he supports breastfeeding.

Julie: Wait, wait, wait. Time out. The more I learn about this man, the more I love him. 

Paige: Did you not know that?!

Julie: Oh my gosh. 

Meagan: I want to meet him. 

Julie: I want to put him in my pocket and take him with me to deliver every birth I ever go to ever. I love him. 

Paige: I’ve literally said the exact same thing, Julie. I wish I could just keep him with me forever. That’s the thing. Throughout this whole process, I kept taking note of these green flags. I’m thankful for my other experiences because I don’t think a lot of people recognize how green these flags really are. I was like, “Okay, the shoe’s going to drop. The shoe’s going to drop. There’s something.” I’ll keep going.

Meagan: Can I mention too? You had Marco Polo’d me, “I’m on my way,” then you would leave, and you were like, “This is amazing.” You were just like, “This is right,” every single time. The more you went, the more it verified that you were in the right place. 

Paige: Yep, yeah. You just know. When you know, you know. 

During that appointment, he came specifically and talked to me three times. Three times. He shook my hand. I’m like, “Are you not busy? What? Three times, you have time to see someone who is just touring?” He only sees 15 patients. He is very VBAMC supportive and experienced with it. He supports vaginal breech birth. They do ECVs on-site. I didn’t even bring up VBAC after three. I just mentioned that I had three C-sections, and he said something like, “Oh, do you want a VBAC? Do you want to try again?” I was like, “Oh, I mean, I don’t know. I’m thinking about it.” 

Then, he made me cry. This was at the tour. He made me cry because he said, “I’m a different doctor because I listen to moms. I listen. They tell me how they want to birth. If you want a VBAC after three C-sections, I will support you. You can do it. You choose how you want your birth to go and I will worry about the bad.” He was like, “You don’t need to worry.” 

I was like, “Oh my gosh,” and I started crying. I was like, “Okay, I’m going to go now.” I was not composed, and then he hugged me. I was like, “What? Who is this guy?” 

I didn’t just jump over there. I did give the Army hospital a chance. I went to a couple of appointments there, and that was kind of all I needed to know for what I wanted. I’m so thankful they are a resource there. I’m thankful that they are here. But I did ask about their routine Cesarean practices and their VBAC practices. 

It was important to me to find a doctor who supported VBAC even if that wasn’t what I was planning to go for. I still love VBAC so much. I think it’s so beautiful and such an important option for women to have. I’m so passionate about it. I always will be. 

They didn’t even humor the idea at all of VBAC after three. They were like, “Oh, no. You’re going to have a C-section. Of course.” The idea was laughable. 

The C-sections only allowed one support person, no breastfeeding in the OR, no photographers. Arms are strapped down. I just was like, “Okay.” I was very gently asking questions, but then was like, “Uh-uh. Red, red, red flags.” 

My biggest piece of advice, and we say this over and over again, is to find a provider whose natural practices align with the things that you want. 

Julie: That is it. That is it so much. Sorry, I don’t want to interrupt again, but let’s put bold, italics, emphasis, and exclamation points on what you just said. Say it again. Say it again for the people in the back. 

Paige: Find that provider whose routine practices align as closely as possible with what you want. 

Julie: Preach, girl. Preach, girl. I love it. 

Paige: Because we’re not meant to fight. You do not want your birth experience to be a place of fighting or stress. Julie is learning that I am a people pleaser. I’m not anything special. I did not stand my ground. I’m going to do this. I did not come blazing in. I found a provider who I felt very, very safe with, who I felt safe asking for this from, and he said yes. 

I knew that because his practices were so close to the MAC, he would be the most receptive. But there’s a chance that he wouldn’t have been, and he was. That’s why ultimately it worked out because he was receptive. I couldn’t have forced him to do it, but because he practices closely to it already, it wasn’t as much of a push. 

If I tried to go to that Army hospital and introduce this idea, they’d just shut it down. 

Meagan: You know, that’s what is so heartbreaking to me. Providers all over the world really just shut that down if it doesn’t match their normal routine and their everyday thing. It’s like, well, hold on. Let’s listen. Why are people requesting this? Just like Dr. Natalie, she saw this and was like, “This is something that means something to people. Why don’t we change the norm and create something different?” 

Providers, if you are listening, please try and make change in your area because it matters, and it doesn’t have to be exactly how it’s been. Paige is living proof of this. It just doesn’t have to be that. But we can’t make change if no one puts forth the effort or allows it. 

Paige: Dr. Natalie said that exactly. She said, “Let’s make every birth the best possible version of that birth that it can be.” 

Meagan: Yes. Yes. 

Paige: She said, “If there’s a way to make it better, why not? Why not?”

Meagan: Why not? Because like it or not, birth impacts us. It sticks with us. You’re now explaining four different stories. It’s not something we just forget. We don’t just walk away from these experiences. They stay with us. Now, we might process and are able to move forward in a different direction, but it’s not like we forget, so why can’t we make this change? It actually baffles me. 

Julie: Well, and the mode of delivery is the same. I really want to emphasize that. She has had four C-sections, and they were all very different. But the only one where she left walking out of it really feeling empowered is the last one where she chose a provider who aligned with what she desired for her birth, she had a say in her care, and she felt loved and supported the whole way. She felt like the staff cared about her needs.

But also, time out. She didn’t just feel like the staff cared about her needs. They did. They did actually, genuinely care about her needs and her experience. I feel like that’s such a big difference. 

Meagan: Mhmm. Mhmm. Yeah. 

Sorry, Paige. You can continue. We got on a little soapbox. 

Paige: You’re good.

Julie: I feel like we’re starting to tell the story before the story is told. 

Paige: No, it’s great. We’re getting close. 

I switched to them officially at 20 weeks. My first appointment was the anatomy scan. That’s when I also proposed the idea of the MAC officially. 

After every ultrasound, he comes in, talks to you, looks at it, then you go into his office area where you just chat and ask any questions. That’s just the routine setup of the appointments. 

I had this video prepared, and I was really nervous. It’s scary. It is scary to ask your provider for something new and different. I had this video. It’s on YouTube. It’s by Olive Juice Photography. Everybody should go look at it. It’s the birth of Betty Mae. It’s the video that I watched over and over and over again because it’s the only video I could find of the process from the beginning to the end including all of the prep and including how it was done. 

I was like, “I saw this online. I was wondering if you could watch it and tell me what you think.” That’s how I presented it. It’s a long video. It was like, 5 minutes. He just sat there patiently and watched. 

Then after, actually one thing he did say was, “I don’t like how he’s using forceps.” I was like, “Oh, green flag.” 

Then, he asked, “Is this what you want?” I said, “Yeah. I think it would be really special if it could happen.” Then, he said, “Then, we can do that.” Then, he thanked me for giving him the opportunity to grow and try something different. He said, “Will you email that video to me and any other resources?” 

I emailed Dr. Natalie, and she sent over a MAC PowerPoint that she had prepared of the procedures because from the episode, she was like, “Anybody interested doing this, reach out to me.” She is true to her word. She will do that. If you are interested and you want to contact her, she is very responsive. 

She sent me also her MAC hospital policy which I forwarded to him. I have to share what he said. He’s so cute. In the email response, he said, “I watched the video you sent again. If necessary, we will contact Dr. Natalie to prepare for your perfect Cesarean delivery. Thank you so much for this great opportunity to serve you. I am excited to help your birth and confident it will be a great opportunity for further growth for us.” 

I was like, oh my gosh. 

Meagan: That literally just gave me the chills. 

Paige: I could not believe it. 

Dayana, who is also a student midwife there at home, told me that she had been planting seeds for maternal assist for a while. They had just been waiting for a mom to ask for it. That was also the time that I hired Julie. I was like, “Julie, that would be so fun if you could come out.” Then Julie was like, “Okay, let’s do it.” Then I’m like, “Okay.” Then it happened, and Julie was just so brave to have the gumption to come out. Fun fact, she was previously stationed out here with the Army. It does seem like it all kind of worked out that Korea wasn’t so out of touch for her, maybe. 

Julie: Yeah, no. It was really cool. You had mentioned it briefly, then I was like, “Oh, I wish I could make that work.” Then, I remember I was in the CBAC group. I was like, “Oh, I’m so excited for you,” or something, then you said something like, “I really wish you could come and document it. We would cover your travel out here and everything.” Then I was like, “Oh my gosh, really?” So then I talked to my husband about it. I was going to be gone for a while. He would have to hold down the fort and everything. 

I talked to him and he was like, “Yeah, I think that would be okay.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, Paige. My husband is fine with it. Let’s do this.” I remember the day that you booked my flights and officially signed my contract and locked in and everything, then I told my husband and he was like, “Oh, this is really happening then?” I was like, “Nick, I gave you the change. I gave you the chance to eject. It’s too late now.” He’s been doing really great. He’s a really great dad. The on-call life means he has to just take over the house at random moments. We are set up to where we can do that. It was just really funny. I’m so excited that we could make it work. 

Paige: This is my public thanks to Nick and all of Julie’s children for allowing her to be here because it did require sacrifice on their part, truly. I’m just so thankful. 

I also found out, Dayana told me that she had been asked to prepare a whole presentation for the staff on MAC which she did. She prepared it for nurses, midwives, and anesthesia walking them through. The fact that she had that connection to Houm and that experience, she served as my doula but so much more. She was so much more as my advocate having that inside access to the staff. 

We scheduled a surgical rehearsal for 35 weeks. At 35 weeks, this was one of my favorite things. He personally was there to walk me through every step of what it would look like for my security, but I don’t feel like I really needed it because I was very, very familiar, but for the comfort of the staff and everybody else too. 

I got to the appointment. My husband was able to be there with me on that one. The way it’s set up– we’ll post our video then you can visualize more of what the layout looks like. There’s the prep room, then literally 10 steps across is the OR right there. In the prep room, they had a gown ready for me. They had the washing bins ready. So the way that it works, you go in. You put the gown on. You have the IV. They showed me where they would place the IV. 

Then you scrub up your hands. You wash with the sterile solution, and then they put gloves on top. This was the way that they did it. Then they walked me into the OR. They showed me how I would go sit up on the table, how I would receive my spinal through anesthesia, then they practiced laying me back down. They did everything step by step. It wasn’t new to me. I’ve had C-sections before, so I knew, but it was just so sweet that they were so thorough. They showed me how they would insert the catheter. He showed me exactly how he would lay the drapes over my body. He showed me when the curtain would go up. 

The way they do it, you’re not just watching the whole thing the whole time. You could, I guess, opt for that if you wanted to. You have the drape up, they do the initial incision, get the baby out up to his head, and then they drop the curtain. That’s when they pull your arms down. 

The other thing too, the reason why they do strap your arms down is in case you impulsively reach down and touch your incision and breach the sterile field. That’s the reason why arms being strapped down is even a thing. 

But for MAC, your arms are not strapped down obviously. They have somebody holding their hand on your hands which I don’t think I even had. Looking back, I don’t remember anybody touching my hands or my arms. But that wasn’t an issue. It wasn’t something that I impulsively wanted to do, to reach down there. 

Anyway, then the drape goes down. They guide your hands up and over to put your hands under his armpits. Come up. Bring your baby to your chest. The curtain goes back up during closure, and then they talked about how I’d be transferred back to the recovery room– not the recovery room. No recovery room. You go to the postpartum room immediately. I felt on such a high after that. It was just so beautiful how he did that. 

At 38 weeks, I had an ultrasound. They do ultrasounds at every appointment. I don’t know that there is a perfect practice out there that aligns with absolutely everything you want. But they do routine ultrasounds. I wasn’t really concerned about that, but they did flag something called kidney hydronephrosis. It’s basically the swelling of the kidney. They had been monitoring that. It had presented late in the third trimester, but it was severe enough that they were starting to get really concerned about it. 

Basically, it can mean that there is an obstruction, and if it’s really severe, it can mean that the baby needs to be evaluated within 48 hours of birth by a pediatric urologist which clearly they don’t have on site. It was a whole thing. If it really is severe and there is an obstruction, then they need to do surgery really promptly to prevent kidney damage early on. 

That was the thing. He did suggest that I could deliver somewhere else, and then the baby would be able to be there and we would be together in the same facility. That’s when I felt like the shoe dropped. I was like, “Why would he suggest that? He knows that I would not want to deliver anywhere else. Why would he even bring that up?”

I was all a mess. I was alone at that appointment. I felt a little bombarded and ambushed. I was like, “This isn’t going to happen. I’m not going to get it.” That night, Dayana called me. I was getting ready to reach out to her, but she called me. She was like, “I just wanted to check in.” I had emailed Dr. Chung a clarification email. 

I think that’s really important too. If something doesn’t sit well with you in your appointment, it’s okay to follow up in an email just to clarify what happened. Can you lay out these options? Can you lay out what we went through? Can I have a record of the ultrasound and what you saw? Because then you’re not just swirling these things in your mind. You’re actually looking, then you can do your own research. 

I dove into research. I dove into studies. I compared the numbers that he gave me versus what I saw, and it all did align. She called me and she was like, “No, don’t worry. He is comfortable moving forward. He thought that you would be concerned, so he wanted to present you with more options to deliver somewhere else, but he is very happy to deliver you here still and sticking with our plan. He does want to see you at a follow-up ultrasound at 39 weeks,” which I was comfortable with. I was like, “Sam, you’ve got to come with me. I can’t go alone.” She promised that she would be there. 

That’s another thing. When you have a team that you trust, make sure that you are supported, and it’s not just you and your doctor. If there’s something that doesn’t sit well, it really helps to field it with other people not just in labor, even in your prenatal appointments or anything like that. If you feel like you need some extra support, it does really help to bring some people with you who you trust. 

So at 39 weeks, we all met as a team and asked lots of questions. We felt comfortable with a care plan moving forward. We ultimately decided that we would move forward with the C-section at 39+5 which would be Monday. I’m trying to think what day that was. 

Meagan: The 7th. 

Paige: Monday, the 7th. 

Meagan: That’s what I had in my calendar. 

Paige: Monday, the 7th was the day. We talked about moving it up. All his colleagues were like, “No, you should deliver this baby now. What are you doing? You’re crazy keeping her pregnant.” I was like, “I am comfortable waiting, and I have to wait for Julie, so it can’t be until Friday. It can’t be until Friday.” She gets in on Thursday. That was Wednesday, at 39 weeks. Thursday was 39 and 1.

Julie was on the plane, and then that morning on Thursday, I lost my mucus plug at about 8:00 AM. I was like, “Oh, no.” I wasn’t really having contractions or anything, so I was like, “Okay. We’ll still make it until Monday. It’s fine.” 

Then, Julie got in at about 7:00 PM. I started having some baby contractions. We were sitting around my kitchen table, and Julie was like, “Are you contracting right now?” I was like, “A little.” She was like, “Go take a bath.” Then, we went to bed. 

I took a bath, and then I went to bed. I was for sure just contracting. I was like, “But what about these logistics? What is going to happen?” Anyway, my childcare plan was going to be turned upside down and all of the things. I was stressed about the logistics. 

But then, I was woken up at about 10:00 PM by contractions. They were about 6-7 minutes apart, but they were definitely real. I thought they were prodromal, so I was just waiting for them to just go away. 

They started getting closer. They were close enough to about 4 minutes and sometimes 3. I was having more bloody show, so I was like, “These are kind of doing something.” The intensity increased. It got to the point where I couldn’t lie down. I was on my hands and knees. I was standing up, bracing myself against the wall. I was trying to do different positions. Maybe it was just a positional thing. “Let me try to do flying cowgirl. Let me try to do Walcher’s”. I was trying to do different positions to try to stop them. I tried to take a bath at 3:00 AM, and they weren’t going away. I was like, “Okay, I can’t do this. I can’t risk it. We’ve got to go.” 

I woke up my husband. I was like, “Today’s the day. He’s just telling me that it’s the day. It’s time. I don’t know why, but it’s Friday. It’s supposed to be.” At 4:00 AM, he packed his bags. At 5:00 AM, I felt so bad because Julie had just gotten in from this huge international flight. It was a 12-hour flight plus some because you had a connection. I was like, “Julie, we’re going to go,” she was like, “Okay!” She was so excited. “Okay, let’s go!”

Julie: I wake up to a knock on the door, and they’re all dressed and ready to go. I’m like, “Why did she not wake me up sooner? I could have supported you.” 

Paige: I felt so bad. 

Julie: Yeah. It was wild. It was so wild. I was ready. It was awesome. 

Paige: So at 5:00 AM, we left for the birth center. At 6:00 AM, we got there. I messaged my team. Dayana said she was on her way. They led me to my room which is just a beautiful suite. It’s right next to the OR. They led me to my room. They said that the anesthesiologist would be ready at about 10:00 AM, so between then, I would be laboring. 

Dr. Chung came in, and he said, “You need to be prepared for a VBAC to happen. You might have this baby just right here.” It was so funny that he was supportive of that idea even. It was so cute. 

I labored. It was getting intense, but they weren’t super close together. Dayana came. She jumped in, and she immediately just respected the space which was so beautiful. She started doing all of her– she’s a Body Ready Method practitioner. She’s done some training with Lynn Schulte and the Institute for Birth Healing, so she’s very familiar with the specific way to give you comfort measures. 

She was so great. I felt so safe. We labored, and my husband gave me a beautiful blessing. She said the more beautiful prayer that really invited heaven into the space and made it so spiritual and special. We were playing music, then at 9:00 AM, the head midwife, her name is Joy, came in. She started the IV.

Dr. Chung came in and walked me to the prep room. In our rehearsal, I was going to be scrubbing myself, but he just picked up my hands, and he started washing my hands and scrubbing my hands for me. It felt like such a selfless act getting ready to go into this procedure. It felt like he was so respectful, and then I even had a contraction during the washing. He stopped what he was doing and was so respectful of the space. 

It just felt so Christlike having him wash my hands going into it. Then we walked into the OR, and they got me ready for anesthesia. They put in the spinal, and then they laid me down. They did the pinprick test. They gave me a new gown that was sterile. I’m trying to think of what else. They inserted the catheter. 

I could kind of feel a little bit with the pinprick test, but the catheter insertion was just pressure, so I felt comfortable moving forward. They got started. We played music. They had ice ready for me on my face because I told them when I get nauseous or anxious, I tend to get a little lightheaded. They had ice ready for me. That was something I had requested, and that was so nice. 

They started the surgery, and it was very, very intense. I do want to be candid that it was probably my most painful surgery. I had to work through it with labor-coping stuff. I was vocal. I did mention that I was feeling pain. It got pretty intense. I don’t know if in Korea in general– I know that they are a little bit more stingy about anesthesia, but it was okay. I don’t feel like I was traumatized from that. 

The baby came out at about 10:24. That’s when they say he was born. We were listening to music. I was vocalizing, then Dr. Chung says– what did he say? “Let’s meet your baby,” or “Come grab your baby”, or something like that. They lowered the drape, and it was so fast. I bring the baby up onto my chest, and everything just melted away, and this instinctual, primal– all of these emotions I didn’t know I had just poured out of me. I lost any sense of composure that I had. I was shrieking. In any other situation, I would have been so mortified, but that moment of not having it three times over, it was this release and this justification or this validation of finally having it. 

I just got to hold my baby. I was a little nervous about seeing a new baby for the first time without being swaddled and how they would be wet and slippery, and if that would freak me out a little bit, but I wasn’t worried about that at all. I was just so happy that I had him and so relieved. 

During closure, that was also intense too. They put the curtain up. They pulled out the placenta. They put it in a bowl, and then they put it in a bag, and they rest it right there next to you. The cord was so lovely and so beautiful. There is something about a fresh, new cord. It is so awesome to see. I thought it was the coolest. 

I had my husband. I was squeezing his hand. Honestly, I felt like having my baby in my arms and holding my husband’s hand was the best pain relief. In that moment, it was keeping me calm, keeping me steady, and getting me through the closure and the rest of the surgery.

Then they transferred me to my postpartum room, and they just let us be there. 

They didn’t push cutting the cord. Dayana gave me a placenta tour. I was like, “When do we cut the cord?” She was like, “Whenever you want.” It ended up being about 2 hours of us just enjoying it and talking about how cool it was. 

Yeah. She gave us a tour. I was able to wear gloves and touch it and go through it, then Sam was able to cut the cord for the first time which was so awesome. 

That’s the gist of it. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. I started crying. I’ve gotten chills. I have so many emotions for you just watching your video. I’ve literally watched it 10, maybe 15 times, and I can’t wait to see Julie’s entire thing that she caught. But I am just so– there are no words. I’m so happy for you. I’m so proud of you, and I’ve talked to you about this. I’ve Marco Polo’d you crying before where I can’t explain it. I am so insanely proud of you and happy for you that you got this experience. 

Thinking about, “I’ve never seen a gooey baby. I’ve never had that opportunity. My husband has never been able to cut the cord,” and you were able to have this beautiful experience where you got to have all of those things. It took four babies to get there, but you got there. You got there because you put forth the work. You learned. You grew, and you were determined. I think as listeners, as you’re listening, sometimes that’s what it takes. It’s really diving in, putting forth that effort, and finding what’s true for you. I know it’s hard, and I know not every provider out there is like Dr. Chung. He is a diamond in the rough from what it sounds like on so many levels. 

But they do exist. Again, going back to what you were saying, sometimes it just talks about Paige going in and saying, “Try to have an open mind. Look at this video. I would like for you to view this. Just take a look at it,” and left it in his hands. Sometimes, it just takes something so simple. But, oh my gosh. I can’t believe it. 

We were Marco Poloing about episodes, you guys, before she was in labor. We were also Marco Poloing about social media posts. She was like, “I just don’t want to say anything until it happens.” I think sometimes even then, I wonder if that’s where that ultrasound had come in and maybe there was doubt. I don’t know. It seems like maybe that aligns pretty well with the time that we were messaging and that. Maybe we were Marco Poloing or texting. I don’t know. 

It’s like, could this happen? Is it really going to happen? You want it to happen so bad, and then to see it unfold and to have it unfold in such raw beauty, oh my goodness. I cannot believe it.

So in the OR, they let Julie in there, right?

Paige: Oh, yeah. Dr. Chung is a photographer himself. Julie had asked me to ask him if she could move around or if she had to be stationary. He was so open to her walking anywhere and having free range of movement and having multiple sources of video and photo. 

Julie: Yeah, it was really cool. I want to speak a little bit to that side of things if that’s okay for a minute. Being a birth photographer is kind of complicated and sometimes logistically crazy especially as the baby is being born because everybody has a job to do. Not every provider and nurse is supportive– maybe not supportive. Not every provider and nurse is respectful of the fact that I also have a job to do and that these parents are paying me not a small amount of money to come in and do this job. That is very important to them to have this birth documented in a special way.

It can be tricky navigating that especially times ten when it comes to being in the operating room. I have about a 50% success rate of getting in the OR back home. Some hospitals are easier than others. It’s always an honor and a privilege, I feel, when providers create a way for me to go in the OR because Cesarean birth is just as important, maybe even more important to have documented because it comes as a healing tool and a way to process the birth especially when most Cesareans are not planned. 

It was really cool to hear ahead of time about how supportive Dr. Chung was and how amazing he was going to be to let this happen. When we were in there, I don’t think I’ve ever moved around an OR as much as I have in that OR. Providers will tell you, “Oh, you’re not allowed in because the operating room is so small. Oh, the sterile field, we want to make sure you don’t pass out when you’re in there.” I think all of these excuses that people give are just regurgitating things. They don’t want another person in the OR. It’s just kind of dumb because that was the smallest OR that I have ever been in. I still was able to document it beautifully. I respected the sterile field. I wasn’t in anybody’s way. 

People were in my way which is fine because they had a way more important job to do to make sure Paige didn’t bleed out and that the baby was born and that Paige’s needs were met and things like that. I’m okay. I’m used to navigating around people in the space. I’m perfectly comfortable with that. It was so beautiful. I was down at her feet. 

Paige, I’ve actually been going through your images and choosing ones to include in your final gallery while you’ve been talking. I cannot wait to show you this. I have images of Dr. Chung pulling his head out, still images, of the head being born through the incision. It’s like crowning shots. It is this beautiful image of this baby’s head being born. Obviously, you’ve seen the one of his head all the way out. I just think it’s so beautiful. I consider it such a privilege and such and honor to have as much freedom in that room. 

I was literally at her feet, Meagan, documenting while he was cutting her open the adhesions and all of those things. There is video. There were images. I have chills right now. And then as baby was born, I was able to move up by her shoulders and document that and her reaching down for baby. I have all of that. 

I think that is such one more reason why Dr. Chung is amazing. It is such a rare gem, a diamond in the rough, because Paige now has the documentation for this beautiful story, and it’s just one more thing where we have work to do. We have lots of work to do, lots of work to do, and lots of advocacy with people asking for this. I just think it’s so important and so cool. It’s such a rare thing. I don’t even think I would have been able to do all of this back in the States. 

Meagan: No. 

Julie: I just think it was so cool. I’m determined to get these images to you before I leave so we can look at them together. I cannot wait for you to see them. I can’t. I’m just so excited. 

Paige: Well, it just makes me think of how often you’ve said, “If you don’t know your options, you don’t have any.” The purpose behind this, and why I felt I really did want to go for this option, and what was pulling me to it, is because I want to create options for women and to show them what’s possible. That’s why I wanted Julie to come. I wanted her. I told her specifically, “Document every step of the process so that women have more resources to see the ways we do it.” I didn’t do it exactly like the Olive Juice photography video. There are little variances between it, and that’s okay. 

But it was still so beautiful, so wonderful, and then also, I asked her to document the surgery itself because so much of it is going back and trying to process it in your mind while you’re going through it. I’m so glad she did. We walked through it last night, just the moment when I was in the most pain. It was actually really wonderful to see what he was doing which I wasn’t in the space to see at that time, but to go back and see, “Okay, that makes sense because he was maneuvering so much,” and to connect it. The connection piece was so valuable. 

For every Cesarean, I’m so passionate now that you need a doula. You need a midwife in there. You need a birth photographer. You need everybody in there. I knew it, but now, I’m so passionate that we need to advocate for ourselves just as much for planned Cesareans. 

Meagan: Absolutely. I still can’t believe it. I’m so happy. I love this story so much. I believe everyone should hear it because like you said, we need to be educated so we can apply what we need. We don’t know what we don’t know. This is what we’ve heard for so many years, but we can know. We can know our options, and it does take us doing it most of the time. 

The medical world out there is trying sometimes. Sometimes, they are not trying as well. But they are trying. They are also capped in a lot of ways with resources and with time. There’s just a lot that goes into it. So, dive in, you guys. Learn. Follow what you need. Follow what your heart is saying. If your heart is saying, “I want a different experience, it’s okay to push for that different experience.” 

Paige: Yeah, definitely. I’ll attach a lot of the resources that I used to help me in my prep. But I did just want to cap off by saying that I don’t feel like I’m anything special. I am not a birth worker. I am not a nurse. I don’t have a history of medical stuff. Dr. Chung was so cute. He was joking that I was a surgeon and getting ready to go do the surgery, but I’ve always been squeamish at blood and things like that. Don’t feel like you don’t want to go for it because you’re afraid that it will be a scary thing. It is such a natural, beautiful thing. It doesn’t feel as medical as it might seem. 

And even if you are scared, I was scared. It’s okay to do it scared if you think that it might be something beautiful and if your heart is, like Meagan said, calling you to it. We’re just moms, and moms are powerful, and that’s enough. 

Meagan: I love that. 

Julie: I love that. I think it’s really important. Paige, first of all, you are special, and this is why. Not everybody is brave enough to ask questions and be curious. It sounds so simple, and in a way, it is simple, but it’s not easy. 

I think that what makes you special and what truly sets you apart is that you were curious. You were exploring. You were asking questions. You were looking. You were learning, and not everyone will do that. I wish more people would do that because that’s what creates the change. You have to have people who are receptive to your needs, and you did. That is such a privilege and it’s so lucky because not everyone is going to be able to find that provider who aligns with the things that they need. 

But I feel like the most important thing that you did was be curious. Ask questions. Get to know what your options were. You looked at the hospital on post. You looked at the places they referred out to. You were like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope,” and you kept looking. You kept exploring, and that’s what led you to this beautiful thing. Not everyone does that. It is not easy. It is hard. It took you a long time in order to find the thing, but this is the reality of it. 

Pregnancy is 9 months long which goes by so fast, but it’s lots of time. The time to start preparing is not 36 weeks when you realize your provider is going to do a bait and switch. The time to start getting ready is not 38 weeks when your provider wants to schedule a Cesarean for tomorrow. The time to get ready and ask questions and learn more is early on in pregnancy. That’s exactly what you did. 

That’s what I wish more people would do because it breaks my heart every time I see in The VBAC Link Community or any birth community ever or any birth story is people being sidelined by their provider at 38 weeks or 36 weeks because they are doing a bait and switch. It’s not always their fault. I realize I maybe sound like I’m blaming the parents. I’m not blaming the parents. I’m blaming the system. The system is failing them. 

But, you can never ask too many questions. You can never be too curious. I feel like if you find a provider who you love, keep looking for other options. Keep looking for other things because you never know when things are going to align. By searching for other options and other methods of delivery or other providers, you’re either going to to find one that aligns better with you or be affirmed that you’re making the right choice. 

There’s never a time when you should stop being curious. That’s exactly what you did. You kept being curious. You kept searching and finding better options or being solidified in your beliefs and your choices. I think that’s really important. 

And you are special. 

Paige: Thanks. You’re the best. 

Julie: Everybody is special. You’re special, but you don’t have any magical powers to create this avenue for you. You’re special in that you did this when it was hard. It’s simple, but it’s hard. Everybody can have that. Everybody can do the things that you did. Not everyone is going to find a Dr. Chung because he really is one in a million, I think. But yeah. Hopefully, that makes sense. 

Meagan: When you were saying, “I’m not special”, what came to my mind is that sometimes when we hear stories like this and see videos and things like this, it’s like, they must have superpowers because that doesn’t seem possible. That person must be so amazing to have made that possible. You guys, I will be the first to tell you that Paige is absolutely incredible, but she isn’t superwoman, and neither are Julie and I or any other people on this podcast. We’re not. We don’t have superpowers. We just dove in, followed our intuition, knew what felt right, and went for it. 

Sometimes that means starting before. Sometimes that means you find out information at 25 weeks and you’re like, “Oh crap. I’m 25 weeks behind, but I’m going to do this anyway,” and you dive in head first. No matter where your journey is, you deserve that. You deserve that. 

All of these Women of Strength here, just like Paige, can do it. You can, too. You really can, too. You guys are amazing. Make change. It’s okay. Know that you matter. You matter. 

Julie: Well, and it’s never too late. It’s never too late to get curious. If you find yourself at 38 weeks, and your provider is doing stupid things, get curious. Look. Search. Find. Create. Do something different, but try really hard not to just sit on your hands and hope for the best. 

Paige: Well, and if you’ve had a CBAC, or if you have done all of those things and it hasn’t worked out, it’s okay to take a chance on yourself again. It’s okay to be vulnerable again and to try again. It’s so hard, but it’s okay to do it again and try again. 

Meagan: Yeah, and to rap on that. If you do try again, and for some reason, it doesn’t pan out the exact way you want it, at least you went for it and you felt that you wanted to try, and you did try, and be involved in that situation too in that environment if it’s not working out. 

For me, I really wanted a VBAC. Could it have happened? Probably. Did it happen? No. As I was laying there on the operating table, we made that experience better. We made a better experience where I got that skin-to-skin because I didn’t get that the first time. I saw it. Even though it didn’t work out, that, to me, was the most healing experience. A lot of people think that’s weird to say, “You’re Cesarean was healing?”, but look at Paige. I will say wholeheartedly that my second Cesarean was healing. 

Even if it doesn’t work out, know that you still have options. There are other ways that you can do it. You don’t just have to be in this bright, sterile, beeping, noisy room. You can have music. You can have them lower the drape or have a clear drape. Maybe that’s not something you’re interested in, but maybe you want skin-to-skin. Maybe you want to talk to them about delayed cord clamping or even bringing that baby with the placenta like in Paige’s situation. 

These little things that might seem little impact us in such big ways. I just think it’s so important to know to believe in yourself. It’s okay to try again. If for some reason, it doesn’t work out, you can still make the situation better. 

Julie: Yep. I love that. We were talking a little bit about this too. The biggest indicator of birth trauma whether a parent has trauma related to their birth experience is not the mode of delivery or whether their birth went to plan or anything like that. It’s whether the parents felt safe and heard. It’s whether they felt like the provider heard them. They felt like they had a decision in what was happening to them. They felt like they were cared for and loved. 

That is the biggest indicator of whether or not a parent will have trauma related to their birth. 

You can have a VBAC and have birth trauma, and you can have a C-section and have trauma. You can have a CBAC and have trauma, but you can also have a very empowered vaginal birth, a very empowered VBAC, a very empowered CBAC, and a very empowered planned repeat Cesarean depending on how you perceive you were treated. 

Paige: Yeah. Dr. Chung came to me multiple times after to debrief. He said, “I carry so much guilt for the pain that you felt. I carry so much guilt. I’m so sorry.” I was like, “What?” I had forgotten about it because everything else, the postpartum care and the way that they treated me– their postpartum practices, we didn’t even touch on that, but everything was so lovely, so individualized, so beautiful, and I just told him, “Dr. Chung, let it go. It’s okay. You have loved and cared for me so well.” It’s so true, Julie, what you said. 

Meagan: Oh, all right, you guys. It’s hard to say goodbye. It’s hard to say good night because it’s starting to get late here. It’s daytime there. 

I just love you guys. I love you so much, and I’m so glad that we could get together while both of you are together in Korea and record this amazing story that I know will be definitely cherished for so many women. Yeah. It’s just amazing. Again, I’m so happy for you, Paige, and I love you and congratulations. 

Paige: Thank you so much. I love you both. I’m so thankful that we’ve crossed paths and just so thankful to be a part of this team. The way that you both advocate for women and advocate for change makes such a difference. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her.”

How do you feel when you meet with your provider? Are you excited for your appointments? How does your body react? Are you tense or calm and relaxed? 

Jessica’s first birth began with an induction that she consented to but didn’t really want. Her waters were artificially broken, and her baby just was not in a great position. After over 4 hours of pushing and multiple vacuum attempts, Jessica consented to a Cesarean. 

Listen to Jessica’s VBAC story to find out what she did when she realized at 37 weeks that her provider was NOT actually VBAC-supportive.

Sometimes difficult situations actually work out even better than we hoped!

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Welcome, Jessica, to the show. I am so excited that you are here and excited to hear your stories and actually talk a little bit more about what you do. Do you do it for a living, or is this just your passion project or whatever they call it? Is it your side job?

Jessica: It’s on the side. It’s volunteer. My main job is a stay-at-home mom right now. 

Meagan: Yes. You’re homeschooling, right? 

Jessica: I am. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. One of my best friends homeschools. I just praise you guys. Homeschooling is legit. It is very hard. That seems so hard. 

Jessica: It’s definitely a lifestyle. It’s different. It’s not for everybody, but it’s definitely for us. My daughter is only 5 so we are just getting used to it. 

Meagan: So Kindergarten?

Jessica: She just turned 5 a couple of weeks ago, so we are technically doing 4-K right now. We are just getting into it. I’m still wondering every day, “Am I doing everything I should be?” I know as it goes on, I will get more comfortable and confident with it. 

Meagan: Yes, you will. That’s what I’ve seen with my friend. She was like, “This is what feels right. This is what we are going to do.” It took a little bit of a learning curve, then each kid added in, but she kills it. Yes, you are just a stay-at-home mom, but a full-time teacher. Holy cow. That’s amazing. 

Then yeah, you are doing La Leche League. 

Jessica: Yes. I have been a leader now for 2.5 years, just over that. I became certified. I think it was on my due date. I was trying to get everything done before my toddler was born. It’s been going really great. I really like it. 

Meagan: Yes. Tell us more about it because when I was– this was in 2014– pregnant with my second daughter. That’s when I heard about La Leche League. Tell us more about it and why someone would want to find their local leader, and then what all the benefits are and how to find them. 

Jessica: Sure. I first heard about La Leche League when my oldest was maybe about 9 months, so right away in my breastfeeding journey, I had no idea about it. I wish I had because it would have been great to have a community of support. I started feeling really passionate about breastfeeding and knew I wanted to help other moms with it because it can feel really isolating, especially because it was in the middle of the pandemic. 

I started researching ways that moms can help other moms with breastfeeding because I had no other background in it. I’m not a nurse. I didn’t work in the labor world. I just stumbled upon it, and I lived in Madison at the time. I saw that Madison had a chapter. They weren’t doing meetings at the time because everything was virtual. 

But I just reached out, and I said, “I want to be a leader. Tell me what I need to do.” They emailed me back, and I got in touch with another local leader there who had been there for a while. She was surprised. She was like, “You want to be a leader, but you don’t even know what we do. You’ve never been to a meeting.” I just said, “Yes. That is what I want to do.” 

It was kind of a long process to become a leader because everything was virtual. They didn’t know how to go about that. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Jessica: So it took a little bit of a long time to become accredited as a leader. 

Meagan: Does it now or is it in person? Did it stay virtual? For someone who may want to?

Jessica: I think everything is back to in-person. At least where I live now, Madison I know is back to in-person now too. Everything is probably running a little bit more smoothly now in terms of if you are interested in becoming a leader. 

Basically what leaders do is that we get some training within La Leche League, but we are your cheerleaders. We are here to support you. We are the middle ground between if we need to refer you somewhere for some additional help if it’s beyond our scope of practice of basic breastfeeding positioning, latching, or if you have questions of, “My baby is doing this. Is it normal?” That’s what we do. We have support groups every month for anybody to really join. 

Meagan: Awesome. 

Jessica: It’s fun. 

Meagan: Where can someone find it if they’re wanting to learn more? When it comes to breastfeeding, it sounds weird because you don’t have your baby yet, so why are we talking about breastfeeding? Why are we thinking about it? But I really believe that connecting before we have our babies with an IBCLC or a La Leche group is so important before you have your baby. If someone is looking, where can they find information or try to search for a chapter in their area?

 

Jessica: You can just look up your state La Leche League. There should be a website that has all of the local chapters. They are all over the world, so you should be able to find somebody near you. Even if there’s not one near you, you can contact anybody. Let’s say they are 2 hours away. You can still call or text or email. They’ll usually, if you want to do something more in person, you can do some type of Zoom meeting. You can definitely find anybody to talk to. You’re right. It’s really important to get support before you even start breastfeeding if you know that’s something you want to do. 

I always say that breastfeeding is natural, but it doesn’t always come naturally. You don’t know what to do in the beginning unless you talk to somebody. 

Meagan: Yes. We will make sure to have the website linked in the show notes too, so if anyone is wanting to go search, definitely go check it out. 

Okay, now we are going to give a little teaser of what your episode is going to be about today. So, with your C-section, give us a little teaser of what your C-section was for. 

Jessica: So, my first birth went really smoothly and my pregnancy. I really liked my doctor. I really liked the hospital. It was a group of OBs of all women. I met with each of them. I really liked all of them, to be honest with you. They were all very supportive of whatever you wanted to do.

Meagan: Which is awesome. 

Jessica: Yes, it is. I knew I wanted to have a vaginal birth. That was all I really knew, but I was also really young, I think. I was 23 for most of my pregnancy. I didn’t really educate myself beyond my doctor’s appointments. I trusted them to pretty much tell me what I needed to know, and that was it. That was my bad. 

Meagan: Yeah. Hey, listen. That is something I can relate to so much. I was also in my young 20s and just went in. Whatever they said, or whatever my app said, is what happened. I think that’s a little tip right there that says, “Let’s not do that.” Let’s not do that. 

Then for your VBAC, you had a bait and switch. I’m really excited, when we get to that point, to talk about bait and switch because it is something that happens. It can feel so good and then feel so wrong within minutes. It’s really frustrating, but I want to talk more about that in just a minute. 

We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to hurry and read that, then get into Jessica’s story. This reviewer is by diabeticmamawarrior. It says, “A podcast to educate the mind, heal the heart, and strengthen the soul.” It says, “Hi. I am writing this podcast from Seattle. We are currently pregnant with my second baby due in March of 2022.” This was a little bit ago. It says, “My first son was born at 28 weeks via classical Cesarean due to severe IUGR.” For anyone who doesn’t know IUGR, that is intrauterine growth restriction.

“--and after hearing I would never be able to VBAC, I decided to do as much educated research as I could and to find my options was truly needed. I am also a Type 1 Diabetic and have successfully found an amazing midwife who not only feels comfortable and confident assisting in care through my pregnancy with my diabetes, but also with my special scar, and we are aiming for a successful VBAC. I am also receiving concurrent care with an OB/GYN as well to make sure appropriate monitoring of baby looks good throughout pregnancy. Listening to this podcast was one of the first resources I found, and it was a total GAME CHANGER.” 

It says, “Thank you, beautiful women, who bravely and shamelessly share your stories so that other women can also feel confident in making empowered decisions for their baby and their body. I am soon to join the legacy of women who have fearlessly VBAC’d happy and healthy babies. Much love, Ellen”. 

Meagan: Wow. What a beautiful review. 

Jessica: That was powerful. 

Meagan: Yes. What a beautiful review. That was a couple of years ago, so Ellen, if you are still listening, please reach out to us and let us know how things went. 

Okay, girl. It is your turn. It is your turn to share, just like what Ellen was saying, your beautiful stories, and empower other Women of Strength all over the world. 

Jessica: That review just reminded me that a long time ago, I reviewed the podcast, and you read it on one of the episodes. 

Meagan: Did we?

Jessica: We did. I remember thinking, “This is so cool. I wonder if I could be on someday.” I’m sure you hear this all the time, but it’s very surreal being here knowing I listened to this podcast to help me heal. I’m just super excited to share my story. 

Meagan: I am so glad that you are here, and I’m so glad that we were able to read your review. We love reading reviews. It is so fun when we can hear the review, hear the journey, and then now here it is hearing the stories. 

Jessica: Yes. 

Meagan: Yes. Okay, well I’d love to turn the time over to you. 

Jessica: Like I said, I was introducing my story with my first. I just clicked through a birth course breastfeeding course that the hospital provided for me. I clicked through it to get it done and to check it off my list. 

Meagan: Birth education– yes, I did. 

Jessica: That’s exactly what I did. I’m prepared, whatever. I’m just going to go into this, and everything will happen like it’s supposed to. 

Mentally, everything was going well in my pregnancy. I wasn’t super eager to give birth. I wanted to wait to go into labor on my own. I think what started to bother me or what made me a little bit more antsy was when I was 37 weeks. I agreed to have my cervix checked for dilation, and I was 3 centimeters already. I was so excited, and the doctor said, “I don’t even think you’re going to make it to your due date,” which made me think, “Wow. I’m going to have this baby in the next 2 weeks. I’m not even going to make it to my due date. This is so exciting.” 

If any of your doctors ever tell you that, don’t let it get into your head because that doesn’t mean anything if you are dilated. I was 3 centimeters continuously. 

Meagan: Yeah. You can walk around at 6 centimeters, not even kidding you. My sister-in-law was at 6 centimeters for weeks, and nothing was happening. She was just at 6 centimeters. It can happen when you are just walking around. Try not to let them get into your head, or to get nervous when you’re like, “I could have a baby at any second.” It gets in our heads, and then when we don’t have a baby, it’s infuriating and defeating. 

Jessica: That is pretty much what happened. When I got to my 39-week appointment, I was still 3 centimeters. I just expressed how I was frustrated. I was tired of being pregnant. My doctor said, “Well, let’s set up your induction.” I had never even thought of being induced at that point. It was never mentioned. It never crossed my mind. It sounded so intriguing at that moment to just get this over with. I don’t want to be pregnant anymore. My sisters had been induced, and they had a good experience. It will go the same for me. Everything in my head was telling me, “Don’t do this. You know you don’t want this,” but I did it anyway because I had it in my mind that I should have had my baby already anyway based on what they told me a couple of weeks ago, so it would go so smoothly. 

She said, “You are a great candidate. You are already 3 centimeters.” We scheduled it. I think it was that Friday I went. It was Monday, on Labor Day, that we had my induction scheduled for. I didn’t have a lot of time to even process that. 

Meagan: Yeah. Did they say how they wanted to do it, or did they just say, “Come in. Have a baby”?

Jessica: They briefly told me that they would start with Pitocin and see how my body responded to that. They would probably break my water which is exactly how it happened anyway. 

Meagan: Yeah.

Jessica: Yeah.

They started me with Pitocin at 3:00 PM. They kept increasing it, then by 6:00 PM, my body was just not responding to it. I didn’t feel anything. The doctor who was on call wasn’t my normal doctor, but I saw her a couple of times. I was comfortable with her. She came in and said, “Well, we could break your water. Is that what you want to do?” I said, “Sure. If that’s what you think we need to do, let’s do it.” 

Meagan: Yeah, I’m here to have a baby. What’s going to get me there?

Jessica: Yeah. She was head down, so I thought, “What could go wrong? She’s already head down.” I didn’t know at the time that just because she was head down doesn’t mean she’s in a great position. She wasn’t. She was– what do they call it?

Meagan: Posterior? 

Jessica: ROT. 

Meagan: Right occiput transverse. Okay, so looking to the side. Sometimes, when we say transverse, a lot of people think the body is transverse which is a transverse lie, but ROT, LOT, left or right occiput transverse, means the baby’s head is looking to the side, and sometimes, that can delay labor or cause irregular patterns because our baby is just not quite rotated around or tucked. They are looking to the side. 

Jessica: Right. That was pretty much what the obstacle was because when they broke my water, she engaged that way, so her head never was able to turn properly which we didn’t know yet. I feel like the doctors could have known that because aren’t they supposed to be able to feel and know maybe a little bit of where they are? 

Meagan: Yeah. So providers can. They can internally, and it depends on how far dilated you are. If you were still 3 centimeters, probably not as well, but at 3 centimeters AROM, where we are artificially breaking it, that’s not ideal. Usually, the baby is at a higher station at that point too. I call it opening the floodgates. We get what we get however that baby decides to come down, especially if baby is higher up and not well-applied to the cervix.

If baby is looking transverse and hasn’t been able to rotate right during labor, then they come down like that, and then we have a further obstacle to navigate because we’ve got to move baby’s head. 

I will say that sometimes a baby might be looking transverse and mainly through pushing, a provider can sometimes rotate a baby’s head internally vaginally, but you have to be fully dilated and things like that. Can they feel through the bag of waters? If they can feel a good head, yes. Sometimes they can. Sometimes they can’t, but again, there are all of these things that as a doula anyway, I help my clients run through a checklist if they are going to choose to break their water. Sometimes within your situation, I’d be like, “Maybe let’s wait.” 

But their view was, “Let’s get labor going. We are starting Pitocin. The body’s not responding,” which we know is a number-one sign that the body isn’t ready. Sometimes we still can break water with better head application and with the water gone, it can speed labor up. That’s where their mind was. Their mind probably wasn’t, what position is this baby in? Where is this baby at? What station is this baby at? It’s like, let’s get this baby’s head applied to the cervix. 

Jessica: Yes. I mean, it did work. As soon as my water broke, I immediately when into active labor. The Pitocin contractions were very awful. I felt them immediately because not only did my body start going into labor, but then the Pitocin also was making it worse. 

Meagan: Yes. Yes. 

Jessica: So I begged for an epidural right away even though I knew that’s not what I wanted. I didn’t do a lot of preparing for labor, but I know I didn’t want an epidural right away. I remember the very sweet nurse I had saying, “Do you want me to run the bath for you?” I said, “Are you crazy? That is not what I need right now.” 

Meagan: She’s like, “I’m trying to help you with your birth preferences.” 

J: I know. She was so nice. I apologized to her after later on when I saw her. That was the head space I was in. I just needed that pain to be gone. 

They ended up turning the Pitocin off eventually because my body just did what it needed to do on its own. 

Meagan: Good. 

Jessica: I didn’t get much rest after that. I couldn’t really sleep. I was too excited. But it wasn’t very long until I was ready to push after that. I think at about 7:00 PM, I got the epidural, and at midnight, I was ready to push. I kept trying and trying. 4.5 hours went by until she was just not coming over. I don’t know if it was my pelvic bone or something. That’s when we knew she was not going to turn. 

They suggested that we try the vacuum. I didn’t know what that was. That was very traumatic because the lights were bright. Everyone was in there. I remember my doctor saying, “Okay, we have one more attempt with this vacuum, and that’s our last attempt.” 

Of course, it didn’t work because in my mind, I knew it was my last chance. It was not going to work, and it didn’t. I was really upset after that. I remember crying saying, “I don’t want a C-section.” I was really afraid of it. 

But, that is just what we had to do to get her out at that point after attempting the vacuum. I remember being wheeled down to the OR and just being so tired and not knowing how I was going to take care of a newborn after having surgery and being so tired. I had been up for 24 hours. 

The C-section went fine. I was out of it though. I was passing out here and there just being so tired. They had to tell me to actually look up. “Your baby’s here. Look up.” I remember opening up my eyes going, “What?” I was forgetting what I was doing. 

Meagan: Out of it. 

Jessica: Yeah. I was very much out of it. But after that in the hospital, I wasn’t too upset about having a C-section. I was just so excited about having my baby. It really didn’t hit me until we were on the way home from the hospital. I started crying and was so upset. I felt like my experience was stolen from me because I felt like  I was so mad at my doctor for bringing up an induction at that point knowing if she didn’t, I would have never asked for one anyway. 

I had a lot of regrets about everything. In those couple of weeks after having her, your hormones are very up and down anyway. One moment, I would be fine. One moment, I would be really, really upset crying about it. 

I wanted to redo her birth so badly that it almost made me want another baby. “If we just have another kid, we can try again,” even though I had this 3-week-old next to me. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Jessica: I was not thinking very clearly. 

Meagan: You were craving a different experience. That’s just part of your processing. 

Jessica: Yes. And looking back, I wonder if I was struggling with some PTSD because I would lie there at night not being able to sleep, and I would suddenly smell when they were cauterizing the wound. I would suddenly smell that again and think I was back in the OR. It wasn’t very fun. 

Meagan: Yeah. It’s weird how sometimes the experience can hit you in all different stages and in different ways, but right after, you’re like, “No. No, no, no. I need something different. Let’s have another baby right now. Let’s do this.” 

So once you did become ready to have another baby, what did that look like? What did that prep look like? Did you switch doctors? You liked your whole practice. How did that look for you?

Jessica: Well, we moved. I knew I had to find another doctor. I would have anyway in Madison. I would have gone with a group of midwives that somebody I knew had a good experience with, and after listening to the podcast, I wanted a midwife. 

But unfortunately, where we moved, we live in Green Bay now. I was so limited on which provider I could go with. In one hospital, one group, that was all I could do locally. I couldn’t go with the hospital that everybody was recommending or the midwives that everybody was recommending for a VBAC. 

Meagan: Why couldn’t you go there?

Jessica: My insurance was very limited. It still is. We can only go to this one hospital and one facility for doctors. 

Meagan: Okay, so it was insurance restrictions. Yeah, not necessarily a lack of support in your area. It just was insurance which is another conversation for a later date. Stop restricting everybody. 

Jessica: I was very surprised because when we were in Madison, I could go wherever I wanted and see whoever I wanted. I ended up just choosing somebody. I liked her. She was initially very supportive of having a VBAC. I had mentioned it in my very first appointment that this was what I want. She said, “Oh, I’m so excited for you. This is going to be great.” 

I even mentioned that I was still breastfeeding my daughter when I was pregnant. They just seemed very supportive of all things natural and all things birth. 

Meagan: Everything. 

Jessica: Yeah. There were no issues whatsoever. I had already hired my doula when I was 6 weeks pregnant. I had already talked to them before I had even saw my doctor. I told them about how I was really limited and this was where I had to go, but I felt very supported knowing I had a doula and knowing I had somebody on my side 

It didn’t really bother me at the time that I just had to pick whatever doctor I could. This was also a practice where the doctor I had wasn’t going to be probably who I would give birth with. That also didn’t bother me because I thought, “I have a doula. I have support. I know after listening to this podcast what I need to do to defend myself if that time were to come.” 

Meagan: Advocate for yourself, yeah. You felt more armed. 

Jessica: I did. I really did. I ended up seeing a chiropractor as well which was very helpful throughout my pregnancy. I loved going to the chiropractor. Not only did it help get her in a good position, but I also just didn’t really feel body aches as much as I did, so there were a couple of benefits to going there. I definitely recommend a chiropractor. 

Meagan: I agree. I didn’t go until my VBAC baby. I started going at 18 weeks, and I’m like, “Why didn’t I do this with the other babies?” It was just amazing. 

Jessica: Yeah. It really is. But my doctor’s appointments this time were very different. They were very rushed. They felt robotic. “How are you feeling? Great. Let’s get the heartbeat. Any questions? No.” I really kept my questions for my doulas anyway because I really trusted them. I don’t know. I didn’t feel like I had many questions anyway because I knew what I wanted. I knew I wanted to show up to the hospital basically ready to push. 

One of the red flags, I will say, that looking back now with this provider that I had initially is that she never asked for any type of birth plan. She knew I wanted a VBAC, and I thought it was a good thing that she wasn’t really asking details. I felt like, “Oh, she’s letting me do my thing.” 

But looking back, I think it was just because she knew that’s not what was going to happen. She knew. 

Meagan: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. We’ve had providers who have told people here in Utah. The client will say, “Hey, I really want to talk about my birth preferences.” The provider will say, “You’re really early. We don’t need to talk about that right now. We could talk about that later.” 

Or, “Hey, I was thinking I want to talk about this. Can we talk about that?” “No, not today. It’s fine. Whatever you want.” 

Then it comes, and we’ll hear more about your experience. I’m sure it will relate to a lot of people’s bait-and-switch stories. 

Jessica: Yeah. They sound so supportive in the moment, and then it’s not looking back. It continued on through my whole pregnancy. Even when I was 35 weeks, she suggested a cervical dilation check. I denied it at that point. I thought it was too early. 35 weeks is very early. 

Meagan: 35 weeks? Yeah. 

Jessica: I’m really glad that I stood up for myself and said no, because I was having one of those moments of, do I just do it anyway? I said no, and she was very fine with it. She said, “That’s fine. You don’t have to if you don’t want to. We don’t have to.” I also thought that was a good sign. 

Meagan: You’re like, “Yes. If we don’t have to, why are we suggesting it in the first place?” But I can also see where you’re like, “Well, sweet. She’s respecting my wishes. I didn’t want to. She’s saying, ‘Okay’.” 

Jessica: Exactly. But I made the mistake of agreeing to it at my next appointment because my curiosity got the best of me. I knew that it wasn’t important for me to be dilated, but I was trying to compare it to my last pregnancy. At 37 weeks, I was 3 centimeters with my first. I wonder if I’m going to have a different experience this time. Let’s see where we’re at. I was at 0. I just thought, “That’s totally normal. I have a lot of time left.” Her demeanor changed very much. It was like at my appointments before, she was a different person now. 

Meagan: Oh. 

Jessica: She said, “Well, if we’re not showing any signs of labor by 40 weeks, we need to schedule your C-section.” 

Meagan: Oh no. 

Jessica: She must have noticed I was surprised. I said, “But I don’t want a C-section. Did you not remember that I’m going to have a VBAC?” She said, “Well, you don’t want to risk your baby’s life.” 

Meagan: Bleh. Barf. No. 

Jessica: Yes. Yes. I knew that was just a scare tactic. I luckily was not phased by it. I was educated. I mentioned something along the lines of, “Well, wouldn’t we try to induce me before we jump ahead to the C-section? There’s no medical need.” 

My pregnancies were so boring. There was nothing that would indicate anything, not even an induction, but I thought, “Why not even just mention that before a C-section?” She said something like, “There are too many risks involved.” That was the end of the conversation on her end. She pretty much wrapped it up and said, “It’s pretty slippery out there. Be careful,” and walked out. Yeah. The conversation was over. 

In that moment, I knew that was the last time I would see her. I didn’t know what I was going to do, but I knew I could not go back to her. 

I went back to the parking lot. I was crying. I texted my doulas right away what happened. I said, “I need to figure something out very quickly. I’m 37 weeks. I know I can’t go back to her. Can you please help me figure something out?” 

They were so, so extremely helpful with helping me figure out my options. I thought that at this point– in the beginning of my pregnancy, I knew, “I’ll just stand up for myself. I know what I want,” but when you are very big and pregnant, and you are very vulnerable, you don’t want to do all of that arguing. You just want somebody who is going to support you. 

I just knew I couldn’t go back to her. I didn’t have the energy to try to defend myself or advocate for myself. I just needed somebody who was already going to support my decisions. 

They encouraged me to look a little bit further out of Green Bay which I didn’t initially want to do. I wanted the hospital to be close. I had a 2-year-old. I didn’t want to be far away from her. But knowing I had limited options, I looked a little bit farther out. I texted them, “Hey, there is this doctor who I can go to in Neenah. It’s pretty far. I said her name. I don’t know if I’m supposed to say doctors’ names. 

Meagan: You can. Yeah. You can. People will actually love it so they can go find support themselves. 

Jessica: Yeah. I said, “There is this doctor, Dr. Swift, who is down in Neenah. That’s the only one who is really popping up on my insurance who I can go to.” They immediately texted back, “You need to go see her. She’s amazing.” My doula had actually had her VBAC with Dr. Swift. They were like, “You need to go see her. This your other option.” 

Meagan: Oh, Sara Swift is on our list of providers. 

Jessica: She is. She’s amazing. 

Meagan: She is. Okay, so you’re like, “I’ve got this doctor’s name.” 

Jessica: I called them to make myself an appointment, and I wasn’t able to get in until the following Friday. It would have been after I was 38 weeks. I told doula– 

Meagan: That’s when you had your last baby, right?

Jessica: No, actually my last baby was at 39 weeks, but I didn’t know what was going to happen. I told them, and my doula was actually personal friends with her. She said, “No, that’s not going to work. I’m going to text her, and I’m going to get you in sooner.” 

I think it was a Wednesday at that time. I was able to go see her Friday. Yeah. 

Meagan: A week earlier than you would have been able to. 

Jessica: Yeah. I helped me to feel more relieved knowing that if I had gone into labor before that next appointment, I would have known where to go. I would have had a doctor established. I was very, very relieved to see her. It was such a different experience than my other doctors. I had to bring my two-year-old with me, and at that point, she was getting antsy, so Dr. Swift actually sat on the ground with my daughter and was coloring with her while we were talking to keep her busy. 

I just remember thinking, “There’s no other doctor out there who would do this for a very pregnant patient.” It felt very much like a conversation between friends. It didn’t feel like a robotic type of conversation I had with my previous doctor. 

She very much upfront said to me, “Our hospital has VBAC policies. Here they are. You can deny anything you want. They’re not going to allow you to eat food, but if you say you want to eat food, you can eat. They’re going to want continuous fetal monitoring, but if that’s not what you want, tell them what you want.” It felt like she just was supportive of what I wanted to do. 

She said something along the lines of, “I’m going to trust you and your body to make the decisions that you need to, but also know that if I need to step in, trust that I’m going to do what I need to.” It felt so mutual there. I was so excited to go back and see her every week. I’m actually kind of mad that I waited that long to see her. 

Meagan: Yeah. Mhmm. I’m sure you felt like you were breathing in a whole different way. 

Jessica: I was. I felt very excited. The drive was longer, but it didn’t even matter at that point. I went from a 15-minute drive to 45 and it didn’t feel like there was any difference. It was all worth it. 

Meagan: I agree. It’s sometimes daunting with that drive or the time, but you guys, it’s so worth it. If you can make it work, make it work. 

I’m so glad. Okay, yeah. So you found this provider. Everything was feeling good. 

Jessica: It was feeling great. I actually ended up going past my due date. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Jessica: I was feeling a little bit– not defeated– I wanted to make it to my due date because I wanted to make it there with my first. I was excited when I got to my due date, and then I thought, “Okay, when is this actually going to happen? I’ve got a two-year-old.” My in-laws were coming up to watch her when we were going to the hospital. They live 2.5 hours away. I was starting to worry about, how is this all going to work out? But it really did. 

I felt my very first contraction two days after my due date. It was a Friday night at 6:30. We were getting my daughter ready for bed, and I felt that first contraction. I knew it was different than Braxton Hicks. I just knew, but I don’t even know to say if that’s when my labor started because that continued all throughout the weekend every 15 minutes. It was not a fun weekend. I kept thinking things were going to pick up, and then they would die down. 

Meagan: Prodromal labor maybe. 

Jessica: Yeah, I think so. At one point, I had my doula come over in the middle of the night. I didn’t know when to go to the hospital. I didn’t know if it was time or whatever. She came to my house in the middle of the night just to help me with the Miles Circuit and just the different position changes I could do. 

I believe that was on that Friday night that I started labor. I was also able to get into the chiropractor that weekend. They were closed, but again, my doula was very close friends with the chiropractor and texted, “Hey, Jessica could really use an adjustment. She’s not in labor, but it’s not progressing. Can you help her?” I went to go see them on Saturday and on Sunday just to get things moving. 

She was in a really great position. Everybody could feel that she was just in the perfect position. It was just that these contractions could not get closer together no matter what I tried. Something told me, “Hey, you need your water broken for this to progress,” because I couldn’t do it anymore mentally or physically. I was exhausted. 

I didn’t want to initially because I knew that’s what prevented me from having the birth that I wanted in the first place with my first experience, but something also told me, “Hey, you need to go do this.” 

My intuition was super strong in those moments where I knew. My intuition was strong enough to switch doctors that late in my pregnancy. There wasn’t another option. This time also, my intuition told me, “You have to go in, and they have to break your water.” I knew Dr. Swift would be supportive of that because she was supporting any type of birth plan I really wanted. She told me at any point, I could be induced, but that she wouldn’t bring it up again. It was my decision. 

On Sunday night after we got my daughter to bed, we drove to the hospital. We let them know we were coming. Our doula met us there, and we just told them our plans. Dr. Swift, I remember, said, “Well, if I break your water now, you’re so exhausted from the whole weekend. Do you want to try sleeping for a little bit and we will do it in the morning?” 

I said, “I can’t sleep. I’m having these contractions every 15 minutes.” It was really funny. She said, “Well if you want to sleep, I’ll give you something to help you sleep.” If anybody has ever met her or knows her, she’s got a great personality. It was just funny in that moment. It’s what I needed in that moment to have a good laugh. I was like, “Yes. Give me anything I need right now to rest just a little bit before the morning.” 

In the morning, she came back in around 8:00 or 8:30. I don’t remember what time it was. She said, “Yep. Let’s do this.” They double-checked me again to make sure she was in a great position. At that point, I was actually 4 centimeters. I forgot to bring that up. 

Meagan: Yay, okay. Great. 

Jessica: Yes, so those contractions I was experiencing over the weekend were productive. I felt better about that. I didn’t want to break my water with being one of two centimeters. I felt good. Again, my intuition was telling me, “You need to do this.” 

Yeah. They did, and once again, it immediately put me into active labor. My doula was helping me with counterpressure, then they ended up running a bath for me which was very helpful. I was skeptical. I did not think that was going to work. When they were filling it, I remember thinking, “This is a waste of my time. This is not going to work,” but it was very helpful. 

At one point in the bath, I just remember feeling, “Okay, now I have to get out and I have to start moving around.” As soon as I got up, I just remember feeling things intensify. I got that feeling in my head like, “I can’t do this anymore.” I knew that at that point, it was getting close because of that feeling of, “I can’t do this anymore.” 

Meagan: Yeah, mhmm. 

Jessica: I had just a moment of weakness and I said, “I want an epidural right now.” Even though I knew in my mind that it was too late, I couldn’t help but ask them for that epidural. Thankfully, my doula knew that’s not what I wanted, so she helped prolong that process. She said, “Well, why don’t we start with a bag of fluids and we’ll see how it goes from there? We can ask them, but they might be busy.” That’s exactly what I needed. I knew that’s not what I wanted. 

Meagan: She knew that, and she knew how to advocate for you, and she knew you well enough what you needed to prolong it. 

Jessica: Yes. I’m very thankful for that because she could have said, “All right, let’s get it right now.” But she knew and I had made it very clear that was not what I wanted to do. 

We started with a bag of fluids, and at that point, I could feel my body start to push itself. This was about 3 hours after my water was broken. It was a very quick process from then until that moment. 

While I was pushing, the anesthesiologist did come in the room. I remember the anesthesiologist did come in the room, and I remember he said something like, “Who’s ready for the epidural?” My doctor said, “No, we’re having a baby. Get out.” He came in in the middle of me pushing, and I feel like I scared every other mom there with how loud I was, but I couldn’t help it. 

Meagan: Sometimes you just have to roar your baby out. Listen, it’s okay.

Jessica: I really did. I really did roar her out in 20 minutes. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Jessica: After that, I don’t remember feeling any other pain. The pressure was gone, and I remember just feeling like, oh my gosh. I did it. She’s here, and I get my skin-to-skin with her which I didn’t get the first time. I get to have this experience. I can’t believe I actually did it. 

Meagan: And you did. 

Jessica: I did. 

Meagan: You did it. 

Jessica: There is so much more than you just having that VBAC. Throughout the journey, you grew. You grew as an individual. You grew as a mom listening to your intuition. You really, really grew, and then to have that baby again placed on your chest, oh, how amazing and how redemptive. 

Meagan: It was so redemptive and healing. In that moment, I didn’t feel any type of way about my C-section anymore. I wasn’t upset about it. I really had a feeling that it happened for a reason because if it didn’t, I don’t think I would have tried to educate myself about birth. I would have probably done it a second time, an induction, if it went well the first time. I also don’t think I would have fought so hard the first time to breastfeed because I felt like I had to make it work. I didn’t get the birth I wanted, so I had to make this work at least. 

I personally think that my C-section happened for a reason the first time. In that moment, I remember feeling a wave of, “I’m not upset anymore. I got this experience.”

Meagan: Yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I kind of had that same view to a point. I do feel a little grumpy with how my births went because knowing what I know now, I am realizing that they didn’t need to happen that way. I likely never needed a Cesarean ever. I just probably didn’t. 

But, it’s the same thing like you. I wouldn’t have focused so hard on this. I wouldn’t have done this. I would not be the person I am today. I would not be the birth doula that I am today. I would not be the podcaster today. I don’t think I would have ever started a podcast on any other topic because I’m so deeply passionate about this topic and birth and helping have better experiences, so I really hold onto those experiences and cherish them. It sounds weird because it wasn’t the birth we wanted, but it’s what brought us here today. 

Jessica: Yeah, exactly. I also wouldn’t be where I am today if I didn’t have my C-section. I don’t think I would have been interested in birth. I love it now. I think in the future, I would love to be a doula. I just recently took an exam to become a certified lactation consultant. I haven’t gotten my results back yet, but I don’t think I would have gone down that path yet either if I wouldn’t have had my C-section and fought so hard for breastfeeding to work. I felt like I found my passion within that circumstance that was very unfortunate, and it shouldn’t have happened, but it did. 

Meagan: But it did, and you’ve grown from it. We want to avoid unnecessary Cesareans. If this podcast is for VBAC moms, it’s just as much for first-time moms in my opinion because we obviously have an issue with the Cesarean rate. We do. It’s a serious issue. 

Jessica: Yeah, it is. 

Meagan: But with that said, I encourage you if you are listening, and maybe you haven’t been able to process your past experience yet, or you are fresh out of it, and it’s very thick, and it’s very heavy and dark because we know that can sometimes be that way, I hope and I encourage you to keep listening, to keep learning, and to keep growing, because that darkness will become light again. Those feelings– I don’t know about go away, but they will lift. I don’t know how to explain it. 

Jessica: You might feel different about it. You might feel different about it than you did originally. 

Meagan: Your perspective will change. It’s going to take time. It’s going to take processing. It’s going to take healing. It’s going to be finding the education, finding the right team, finding the right support system, but it is possible. It is really, really, really possible, and take Jessica and my word right now, because we really have been there. We really understand so many of the feelings. I know that we all process feelings differently, and we’re all in different places, especially depending on the types of births that we had. I know that there are way more traumatic experiences that happen out there, but this community is here for you.

We love you. We are here to support you. Keep listening to the stories. Find the groups. Find the healing, and know that it is possible to step out of this space and to grow. It’s weird to think, but one day, you’re going to look back and say, “I might be grateful. I might be grateful that happened.” 

Yeah. Like I said, I’m not happy. I’m not happy it happened, but I’m going to cherish that. I’m going to try and flip it. I’ve made it a positive experience that it’s brought me to where I am today. It’s brought me to be in a place where I can share my story just like Jessica and all of the other Women of Strength before her to help women feel inspired and to avoid those future devastations and unfortunate situations. 

Jessica: Yeah. Don’t let anybody try to tell you not to feel a certain way about it because I’ve had plenty of people tell me, “But you’re healthy. But you have a healthy baby, you can try again next time.” I just said, “You don’t understand. You’re not in my position. I know there are people who do understand me.” Most of you who are listening will understand that yes, you have a healthy baby and you’re fine, but it was still not what you wanted. That experience is so personal. You want what you want. 

Meagan: You want what you want, and you’re not selfish for wanting it. You’re really not. I think that’s really important because sometimes I think we are made to feel that we are selfish for wanting a different experience especially out there in the world, a lot of people say, “Why would you want that? Why would you risk that? You are selfish. Just be grateful for what you have. Just be grateful that you do have your baby and that you and your baby are okay.” No. No. The answer is no. 

Last but not least, I really wanted to share a little bit more about the bait and switch and how to recognize that because you guys, it can be hard to recognize. I don’t ever believe that these providers are sneakily trying to fool us, but maybe they are. I don’t know. I’ll tell you, they do. They do fool us. I don’t know if that’s because our judgment is clouded or what, but I think it’s important to feel that inside. 

What does your heart do when your provider walks in? What do your hands do? Do they clam up? Do they clench? Do they freeze? What does your body do? Are your shoulders rising up? Are they relaxed? Does your face have a smile on it? Really tune into who your provider is making you be. Are they making you a tense ball, or are they making you relaxed and excited?

I mean, really Jessica, the way you are talking about Dr. Swift, it sounds like she is amazing. She’s like, “Here. Here are the policies. I want you to know these. These are things that you are going to be up against. You might have to fight for intermittent monitoring instead of continuous. You might have to fight for this and this, but hey. I’m here. I’m on your side. We have these policies, but I’m here. Use your voice.” 

That was just so amazing. 

Jessica: It was amazing. I’m sad that I’m not going to have another child because I don’t get to go see her for appointments then. I really wish I would have met her sooner. That’s the type of doctor your need is when you actually want to go see them. That’s a big difference. You’re not thinking ahead of your appointment, “Well, I wonder if there is anybody else.” 

Meagan: Okay, I love that you said that. Check in with yourself and see if you are excited to see your provider. That’s how I was. I would look forward. I would look at the calendar and be like, “Oh my gosh. I get to see my midwife this week. This is so exciting,” because I would remember the way that she made me feel when I would get there. She would embrace me with a hug. “How are you doing, genuinely? How are you doing? How are you feeling?” We would chat, and it was a conversation like you said, like two friends. 

It really should be that connection. I know sometimes, providers don’t have the actual time, but tune into how you are feeling about seeing your provider. Are you dreading it? Are you worried about what you’re going to say? Are you worried that you’re going to have to be educated and come at them and say, “Well, I don’t want this, and I don’t want that”? What are they making you feel? If they are making you feel those genuine warm fuzzies, lean into that. 

Jessica: You have a good doctor then. 

Meagan: If you are feeling tense and anxious, I don’t know. It’s never too late to switch. You were switching later on. You had a further drive. There were obstacles that you had to hurdle through, but it is worth it. It is so worth it. 

We have a provider list, everybody. If you are looking for a provider, go to our Instagram. Look at our bio. Click on it. The very first block is supportive providers. If you have a supportive provider that you want to share, I was literally going to put Dr. Swift on this because of your testimonial of her, but she’s already on it. 

Jessica: She was already on it too when I checked. 

Meagan: Yeah. If you have a supportive provider and you checked this list and they are not on it, guess what? We have made it so you can add it. Definitely add your provider because Women of Strength all over the world, literally all over the world, are looking for this type of support. 

Jessica: Absolutely. In case you’re wondering if my other doctor ever reached out to me, I never heard a single word from her ever again. I canceled all my remaining appointments. Nobody reached out to say, “Hey, we noticed that you’re not coming back. What’s going on?” Anything could have been wrong when you’re that pregnant and you just disappear. It was upsetting that nobody said, “What’s going on, Jessica?” I was ready to let them have it because I was wanting them to reach out to say, “Why are you not coming back?” But they never called ever. 

Meagan: A lot of us stay because we are so worried about how our provider will feel or we have been with our provider this long. They deserve for me to stay. No. Do what’s best for you. I love that you pointed that out so much. I just want to thank you again so much for sharing your journey with us and all of these amazing nuggets. I know that they are going to be loved.

Jessica: Thank you so much for having me. This just feels amazing to be able to share my story when I’ve heard so many on here before that were so helpful.

Meagan: Yeah, and here you are. I love how full circle this always is, so thank you, again. 

Jessica: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

Advertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brands

Alma’s first birth was an emergency Cesarean after an induction at 40 weeks due to gestational diabetes. Due to COVID-19 policies, Alma’s husband was not allowed into the OR. She did not expect the induction process to end the way that it did, and felt robbed of the positive birth experience she hoped to have. 

Alma made sure to educate herself on all of her options for her second birth. She was very proactive about her health and did not have gestational diabetes the second time. She went into labor earlier than she expected at 38 weeks. She woke up in the middle of the night to her water breaking, and intense contractions began. 

Within minutes, Alma knew she had to go to the hospital immediately. Alma felt pushy as they made the 45-minute drive. She was admitted to a room, and her beautiful baby was born just two pushes later!

Evidence Based BirthⓇ: Induction for Gestational Diabetes

The VBAC Link Blog: VBAC with Gestational Diabetes

Birth Ball Amazon Link

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, hello. It is almost the end of November. It is crazy to think that the year is coming to an end. But guess what, you guys? We still have so many amazing stories coming your way. Today’s story is from our friend, Alma. I’m already messing it up. It looks like Alma, but you say it. Tell me how to say it correctly.

Alma: Alma, but any way you say it is fine. 

Meagan: Perfect. I want to say it correctly though. She is sharing her stories today. Now, you are in New Jersey now, but you weren’t in New Jersey when you had your VBAC. Is that correct? 

Alma: When I had the C-section, I was in New Jersey, so we just zigzagged a little bit. 

Meagan: So she’s in New Jersey, but the VBAC wasn’t in New Jersey. I know a lot of people when they are listening are like, “Where was this VBAC?” We will talk a little bit more about that when we get into the story, but let’s give them a little teaser of what your episode is going to be. 

Your first C-section, I feel like was the steps. It was the steps or the cascade, and then a little bit of what you went through. Tell us a little bit of a teaser before we get into the episode. 

Alma: I had a lot of interventions in my first pregnancy and did end in an emergency C-section, then for my son, my second pregnancy, it was exactly the opposite. There wasn’t time for any intervention. He just flew out. My whole labor was 2 hours from the first contraction to when he was born. I almost delivered in the car. He was too fast, but it was exactly the experience that I wanted to have. 

Meagan: Yes. Oh my gosh, so a precipitous labor after a lot of interventions, an induction, and all of these things. I’m so excited to get to this episode today, but we do have a Review of the Week. As usual, if you haven’t done so yet, please leave us a review. We absolutely love them. 

Okay, this episode reviewer is Desiree Jacobsen. She actually just left this review this year in August of 2024. It says, “Thank you”. It says, “This podcast and parent’s course is amazing. I’m not a VBAC mom, but I have been listening since 2020. I binge-listen toward the end of pregnancy to remember everything I need to remember in the birth process through my previous births. This time around, I felt more prepared than ever before having plans in place just in case. We were able to have a quick birth for my fifth baby. I love the education, passion, love, and support this podcast gives. I recommend it to everyone I know, and I have learned so much from it. I am so grateful for this podcast. Thank you”. 

Oh, I love that. I love that, love that, love that. That was actually sent to us via email. If you didn’t know, you can email your reviews at [email protected]. Your reviews on the podcast and on Google are what truly help other Women of Strength find this platform and find the courage and the information that they need to choose the birth that they desire. 

Okay, girl. Let’s get into this story. So first birth, lots of interventions. Let’s talk about it. One, what types of interventions, and two, why? What led up to needing those interventions or I don’t know if it’s “needing” or really medically needed? Tell us more. 

Alma: Well, my first pregnancy was very normal and healthy up until I was diagnosed with gestational diabetes. That’s where things started to change a little bit. I just failed the test by just a point, so my blood sugar was elevated, but it wasn’t as bad as it could be. I wasn’t even on insulin. I was just on diet control. 

Everything was going fine so I thought, but I would say a week before my due date, I was told that I needed to be induced because of the gestational diabetes. That was the first red flag of things going out of my control because I didn’t expect to be induced. Although I had gestational diabetes for a while already, I wasn’t told that this would probably be the case that I would be induced. 

I agreed to the induction of course. I understand why it’s done, so I went along with it. I think my daughter just did not want to be born. On that day at least, we went in on my 40th week, and I was on Pitocin for hours, and it did nothing. 

I tried some exercises. I tried a bunch of things. Nothing worked.

Eventually, the doctor suggested to manually break my water. That’s where I wish I had asked to do other things first. I wish I had rejected that choice, but I went along with it. 

From that point, the labor went from 0 to 1000. I was in so much pain in a matter of minutes. Everything happened so fast, and I wasn’t ready for that. I asked for an epidural really fast. I got the epidural, and that’s also when things got worse because my blood pressure started to decrease. 

I didn’t know that could happen actually. Later on, I scoured through every detail of what happened, and I tried to figure out exactly what went wrong. I realized that could happen with an epidural. When your blood pressure is affected, of course, the baby’s blood pressure is affected so my daughter started to have some fetal decelerations. It was very concerning. 

They put me on my back to deliver to push her out. I wasn’t even 10 centimeters yet. They were going to stretch me, but her blood pressure just declined in a way that was really concerning. I was rushed to the OR and the C-section was done. 

Everything happened so fast. I hesitate in using the word traumatic just because in the end, everybody was fine. I was fine. My daughter was fine. She was healthy, but it was very traumatic because nothing was in my control in that moment. I felt almost robbed of the experience that I expected to have. 

That was my first birth. 

Meagan: Well, and when things are rushed like that and you are left in a sense of– you said panic, but in a sense of urgent need to save something or save someone, it does. It sets all of your alarms off. 

Alma: That’s exactly what happened. 

Meagan: Everyone has trauma differently. They view trauma differently. Someone may see one things as traumatic, and someone would be like, “How is that traumatic?” It’s okay, I think, that you’re using that word because that is how you are perceiving this. Your feelings and your alarms that were going off in your body as everything was being rushed and all of these things left that traumatic feeling. 

Alma: Yeah, definitely. In that moment, I felt like I couldn’t breathe. At this time too, there were a lot of COVID restrictions, so my husband wasn’t let into the OR. It was like, “What happpened to her?” He was more concerned than me probably. He thought both of us were going to die, my daughter and myself. It all just happened so quickly. 

Thankfully, we were okay in the end, but I had no idea I would be coming back with a C-section scar. That requires more recovery. As a new parent, we were already new to everything. It was a lot to deal with, I think. 

Meagan: Yeah, what you were saying, I’m sure your husband had a lot of trauma through that experience too. We know that COVID especially– I mean, birth in general comes with a lot of things especially the unexpected, but when you through COVID in with that, it’s a lot of ick. It’s a lot of icky feelings. It’s a lot of ick. 

Alma: Yes. 

Meagan: So everything was good. Baby was good. You were good. Overall, it was a less-ideal situation, but where did that leave you after you had the baby and you were starting to recover? Where was your mind? 

Alma: I think I had to process a lot of what happened. I think I went into the first pregnancy very naive. It’s important to be educated, and I really appreciate this podcast for that reason to encourage us to be educated. It’s not that we are doctors. At least, many of us are not medical professionals, but we need to be aware of our bodies and just what the process looks like, and even some terminology. I was totally clueless on everything. I think that what I tried to do in between both pregnancies was just learn. What’s going on in my body? What can I say no to in terms of interventions?

You don’t have to agree to everything. I never want to argue with a doctor of course, but if I really feel like that’s not the best choice, I can always ask for another choice. I can consider other options. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Alma: I just didn’t know I could do that the first time. I definitely tried to educate myself as much as possible, and I think that contributed a lot to how the second delivery went. 

Meagan: Yeah. I just wanted to thank you so much for pointing that out and seeing that because if I were to guess, we all didn’t know that. We may have heard that you can always say no, but I don’t if we realized how much we really could say no to or ask for another opinion. Maybe we knew it, but didn’t really feel like we could. 

It can be hard. It can be hard to say no, but I love that you are like, “I want a different option. I’m going to say no to this right now. Give me another option.” It’s always okay. 

Alma: Definitely, definitely. Wanting to wait if the time allows, “Can we try this later?” There’s a conversation that needs to happen. It doesn’t have to be one thing that is suggested. 

Meagan: This way or no. 

Alma: For sure. 

Meagan: Where did your education start stemming from? Where did you start when you were like, “Okay, I want to do something different next time”? 

Alma: The podcast. The VBAC Link. I listened to a bunch of podcasts. There is All Things Pregnancy with Dr. Nicole Renkins, and of course, The VBAC Link Podcast. 

Meagan: We’ve had her. We love her. 

Alma: That’s just what I did all the time before I went to bed. I’d listen to an episode driving. I’d listen to an episode. It was very helpful. I felt like I could digest information better that way as opposed to reading, so that was a very helpful tool. 

I also tried to find professionals around me who could speak to my specific situations. I had a doula, and of course, I had my providers as well. They were all so helpful with helping me navigate some of the things that might have gone wrong the first time, and how I could prevent them going forward. 

Meagan: When they talked about some of the things that maybe went wrong the first time– I don’t want to say wrong. They went south. 

Alma: Yes. 

Meagan: I don’t know why people say that. I love south. I love the south. What were the kinds of things that stood out to them?

Alma: Well, I think the first thing was the induction in the first place. I completely understand the risk with gestational diabetes, but I think there could have been more conversations with that in my specific case. Seeing as I did not have diabetes that was really out of control, it was very well controlled with my diet, and there could have been room to say, “Maybe we can go a couple days past my due date.” I wouldn’t recommend that for everyone. I think it depends on your case, but I could have tried to have that dialogue, and maybe we didn’t need to have an induction. 

I also could have considered different methods of induction, and I think that was the first thing because I felt like that was the first domino piece. If I didn’t have the induction, it might not have led to a C-section in the first place. 

Another point was also the breaking of the water. Those things, I could have just said, “Let’s wait.” I was already there for the induction, so I could have just asked for a little more time. 

But the big point for me too was the epidural. That was, I think, the immediate reason for the fetal distress. 

Meagan: The response. 

Alma: The response, yeah. Understanding how I could avoid that. I was told that now with the second epidural, I may not have the same reactions because I’ve had it before. Also, if you get flushed with some IV fluids– 

Meagan: Yeah, I was going to say if you hydrate and not even just intravenously, but literally drinking water before. If you know that you’re going to want to get an epidural, or it’s heading that direction, start hydrating. The more you can hydrate, the better. 

Alma: So I learned those things, then also, I tried to prepare myself for not even having an epidural, although that wasn’t my goal, because I experienced the pains before. Even though I had the C-section, I went through some labor pains. I was accepting the fact that I might just need the epidural, but I considered that as well. How can I overcome this pain without any kind of medication? 

Those were things I was trying to consider about how we could do it differently so it doesn’t result in the same thing. 

Meagan: Okay, I love those tips. So now, you’re pregnant, and we have baby number two. Tell us this journey. 

Alma: Yes. I guess from the time of conception, it was about 18 months apart from the C-section. My pregnancy went perfectly fine. There were no issues. The difference being I had a toddler, so I was more active, of course. I was on my feet. I took at least 10,000 steps a day. I didn’t sit much just because of my daughter. I think that definitely helped in preparing my body. 

I was really focused on how I can work on my pelvic floor and was just preparing for what it would take to push a baby out. 

I also did a lot of exercises that I found online. I never did a class or anything, but these were just Instagram videos where you could see the top three videos for strengthening your pelvic floor and things like that that were just free and available. I had an exercise ball that was a lifesaver. I highly recommend that exercise ball for anybody who is pregnant, especially in the third trimester. You can sit on it. You can lean on it. You can squeeze it between your knees. All of those things provide relief, but they also strengthen your muscles down there. 

I did the Miles Circuit. All of those things were super helpful, and I did it daily to prepare my body. 

I guess going into the actual labor, I’ll start by saying that first of all, I didn’t have very supportive providers. I learned from this podcast that that’s very important. I do 100% agree that it’s half the battle if you have someone who is on your side and wants to help you make intelligent decisions. I would say my providers were not completely unsupportive, but there were a lot of policies from the hospital side that I think restricted them from encouraging a VBAC. There were a lot of if’s, and’s, and but’s. There were so many stipulations for when or if I could have a VBAC. 

Meagan: Can I ask which ones stood out where you were like, “These for sure are alarms”?

Alma: The biggest one was that I would have to deliver before 40 weeks. I felt statistically that doesn’t happen. People usually birth after their due dates, so I felt like I was already set up for, this is not going to happen probably. I felt really discouraged by that. 

Also, I guess the due date was a big thing, but also if I were to have gestational diabetes again, then the whole conversation on the doctor’s side was just completely mute. I would just need to go for the induction if I had gestational diabetes. Statistically, you do have it with each subsequent pregnancy according to what I have known. 

I was also expecting, okay. I’m most likely going to have gestational diabetes. I’m most likely not going to give birth before 40 weeks. It seemed like I was most likely going to have to agree to a C-section. 

Those things were not encouraging, but I did feel like the doctors were trying to help me find some safe loopholes. One of them being that they had to– I don’t know if this is law, but they had to schedule me for the C-section even though I didn’t want one. But they explained to me that I could go in and say to them that I didn’t want a C-section. I could ask for more time. I could ask to be induced, and hopefully, the induction wouldn’t lead to a C-section although it could. I guess they were trying to explain to me that there are some routes you could take, but given the fact that you had a previous C-section, we do have to just assume that you’re going to have another one. 

I felt really alone on that journey of trying to do something that I felt like I could do, especially given that the reason for the first C-section was an emergency. I was dilated. It wasn’t a failure to progress. I felt like my body was perfectly primed to do it, but because of time, we had to go for the C-section. 

I also had to have some conversations with myself accepting that if I do need to have another C-section, it’s not the end of the world. I guess what frustrated me about the first time was that I felt like I didn’t need to have it. C-sections save lives. They’re great tools when they’re needed, but I felt like I didn’t. Aside from the distress and all of that, I felt like I didn’t need it, so I wanted to really try for this vaginal birth. 

I was just in between trying to accept what might happen, but still trying to hold on to what I believed I could do. 

So, I guess fast forward to my 37th week, I had an appointment and I had to sign off that I would come in for a C-section, but my plan was to go in that day. This was on the 39th week. I would have the C-section. I could go in and say that I didn’t want to have it. 

On the night of my 38th week, my husband just finished putting together the crib, and it was midnight. He put together the crib. We went to sleep, and at around 2:45, I wake up because I thought I peed on myself. Now, I think I realize that it was my water leaking. I got up, and at that point, I had maybe cramping, but it wasn’t really painful. 

To make a long story short, 10 minutes later, I was having full-on contractions. They were super painful. I got out my phone to time it, and within two taps, the app was telling me to go to the hospital now. It was two taps. Everything was happening so fast. 

Meagan: They were coming so close. 

Alma: Yes. They were so close. I don’t remember how to count them. All I did was tap, and it was telling me to go. This was at 38 weeks, so I honestly didn’t have anything ready. I didn’t have my bags ready or nothing. Within a matter of minutes, I was just on the floor trying to remember the HypnoBirthing and everything, but it was all slipping because it happened so fast.

We get in the car, and I’m still in a whole lot of pain. At a certain point though, I got a grip. I was doing this Christian HypnoBirthing which really helped me. I finally grasped myself and was able to calm down, but the pain accelerated very, very fast. 

At a certain point, though, I started to feel a lot of pressure. I was still driving, by the way. We had about a 45-minute journey to the hospital. I started to feel a pressure to push. I just couldn’t resist it, so I pushed. I hammered down really hard. It sounded like a fire hydrant was cracked open. My water busted open in the car. I’m sitting behind the driver’s seat on my knees, and my water just gushed open. 

At that point, I really felt like he was coming out. I couldn’t hold back the desire to push because it also relieved the pain a little bit. It was more like a pressure as opposed to a pain. I just gave into that feeling, but I did feel like he was between my knees and was about to come out. 

My husband made a few wrong turns, but eventually, we got to the hospital. I couldn’t even sit, actually. They put me in a wheelchair to go to the place where you would give birth. I couldn’t sit down. He was just about to come out, and when I got there, I was already beyond 10 centimeters at that point. 

Later, the doctor told me when she came down to see me that she could already see the hair of my son’s head. He was already so close. Remember, the talk about the epidural? I wanted the epidural. I was asking the security guard, the person at the front desk– everybody I saw, I was asking for the epidural. I noticed that they didn’t respond to me on that. I overheard them telling my husband that it was way too late for the epidural. My son was already halfway out, and they couldn’t give me the epidural. 

Once the doctor came, she told me to give a good push. I pushed one time. His head came out. The second time I pushed, he flew out. I had five nurses dive in to grab him. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Alma: He was born, and that was the whole thing. It was super duper fast, unmedicated, and yeah. The most touching part to me was that he came out, and they put him on my chest. That was all I wanted. When my daughter was born in the C-section, I had to beg them to let me see her. I didn’t see her until minutes later. I didn’t hold her until the next day, but this time, they put her right on my chest, and it was just so redemptive. It was everything that I really wanted to experience. 

Meagan: Absolutely. It was probably a lot all at the same time, very shocking, but then to have that baby be placed on your chest, oh, what an amazing moment for you. 

Alma: Yes, yes. It was. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. Super fast. 

I was just going to say that was super fast. 

Alma: It was. It was so fast. I think this is a thing with my kids. For my daughter, too, when they broke my water, everything went very fast. I don’t know. They are just really urgent, but my son was definitely in a rush. He came very, very fast. 

Meagan: Did your doula even make it?

Alma: No, she didn’t. She did not. She couldn’t. It just happened too fast. She didn’t make it on time, but she was happy to hear everything went fine. 

Meagan: Yes, of course. Of course. Oh my goodness. So after you had the baby, and you had him on your chest and everything, did all of the rest of everything go okay and smoothly?

Alma: Yeah. I was bleeding a lot, and that was a concern, but I thankfully recovered fine from that. I had a second-degree tear which I hear is not terrible for the first time doing that. So yeah. I recovered pretty quickly afterward. 

In my experience, it really didn’t compare at all to the C-section recovery. I was in a lot of pain after my C-section, but this time, it was just maybe a week or two of taking some pain medication for the stitches and stuff, but overall, I was fine. Yeah. I was able to go home the next day actually, so that was also very good. 

Meagan: The next day? That is awesome. 

Alma: Yeah. 

Meagan: How did your medical team feel about it? Did they say anything? Did they have any worries?

Alma: Everyone was just so shocked at how quickly everything took place. I think that was the main theme was just the speed, and also how determined my son was. With just two pushes, he just came out really fast. The concern of obviously dropping him because they all dove in to get him. I think that was the talk. This happened in the morning, so the whole rest of the day, they were just chatting about how quickly everything happened. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. I bet. I think sometimes those births are kind of a lot for medical staff where you come in and your baby is crowning, but I feel like those births are the type that they really do talk about for a really long time, and they were like, “Look at this.” 

A lot of the times, here in Utah, anyway, they call them stop and drops where you show up at 10 centimeters. You just stopped in and dropped your baby. I feel like in a lot of ways, it shows people that labor can happen at home, and then you come and it can so beautifully happen without getting an IV, getting a heart trace, setting up fluids, doing this, having a cervical exam. There is just so much that doesn’t need to happen, and I love when medical staff can see that birth can just happen like that. It really, really can if we just leave it be. 

Alma: Yeah. That’s exactly another point of how I felt before because I had gestational diabetes, and because I had a previous C-section, they did make it sound like I needed to be hooked up to every machine, and I could never give birth at home. I just felt almost like a robot connected to everything. That’s how it had to be, but yeah. This time, I wasn’t even in a hospital gown. It was just so organic how it happened. That was exactly what I wanted to experience, but I think it was a good experience for the nurses as well to see that it was okay. I was fine without the IV and the other stuff. 

Meagan: Yeah, I love that. 

You had listed some tips. One of them was doing pelvic floor exercises on the ball which we kind of talked about. I love the ball so much. If you guys are interested in a ball, I’m going to link a ball in the show notes because they are actually really inexpensive and can do a lot of really good things. 

What other tips do you have for someone preparing for a VBAC?

Alma: The number one tip which I’ve heard constantly here is about being educated and understanding what your options are. Unfortunately, I think that most providers are not going to make it easy to have a VBAC just because of the risks that are associated with it. Of course, they may have your well-being in mind, but there are also a lot of hospital policies and protocols that they need to follow. They may not make it easy, but if you understand what your options are and what the research says, it opens the door for dialogue. 

When you open that conversation, I think you will find that doctors will probably give you more options than what they may have initially suggested. I always spent time talking with the doctors about, “So what if this happens? How about this? How about that?” I feel like that did wiggle in some room for me to not do things just following the protocol. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Alma: That’s really important. 

Meagan: It’s so interesting how if you show up showing that you’re educated, there’s this different sense of– I don’t want to say respect, but I do want to say respect because I feel like these providers are like, “Oh. They get it. They understand. I can’t just say whatever. This needs to be an educated discussion.” It should always be like that, but I also think a lot of the times, providers don’t have time to really sit down and talk about the evidence, or their evidence is flawed because of personal experience. When you come in and you’re like, “Hey, what about this?” and they’re like, “Oh, she knows stuff,” it just really gives you some wiggle room. It gives the providers respect just a little bit more because they realize how important this is that we are educating ourselves. We are learning. We know the options, and we’re not just going to be like, “Okay, cool.” I love that tip. 

That, and finding the supportive provider. In the beginning, you had said that the hospital policies may have trumped these providers’ stance. I think not only just finding your supportive provider, but really understanding the hospital policy. You can call, and you can talk to the head nurse. You can talk to the board and the directors of the hospital. You can say, “Hey, I need to know the hospital policies surrounding VBAC.” 

Alma: Yeah. You know, I believe it was on this podcast where someone mentioned that the best way to know how a provider feels about a VBAC is just to ask them very straight, “What do you think about VBACs?” Their expression will say it all. You don’t have to have a preamble about it. Just ask directly, and I think that helps. I definitely did that. It wasn’t favorable in my case, but I definitely think looking into the hospital C-section rates is really important too. How often do they have C-sections? How often do they have VBACs? If they have that information available, that’s also really helpful. 

In my case, I found out too late that it wasn’t the highest, but it was pretty high. Also, from this podcast, I learned that it’s never too late to switch providers if you want to. I didn’t take that route. I stuck with who I was with, but I guess I was just trying to be adamant with what I wanted to do as much as possible. 

Meagan: Absolutely. Do you have any tips on how to possibly find the hospital’s Cesarean rate? It used to be out there on cesareanrates.org. It used to be out there, and you could look up your hospital. You could look up your state. You could look up your provider, even. That’s gone down a little bit and changed a little bit, but do you have any advice if someone is wanting to know their hospital’s Cesarean rate? 

Alma: In my case, I just searched the hospital name and the Cesarean rate. This was a pretty big hospital. This was in Florida. It was a hospital with a very big network, so that information was readily available on their website. You do need to dig around, but it was on their website. If you are dealing with a big hospital with many departments and so on, they may have that information on their website easily with a Google search. 

You could also talk to people who work at the hospital as well. If it’s not online, I think that information is quantified normally. They might not quantify how many VBACs they have, but definitely the C-section rate is information that they are following and tracking. 

Meagan: Yeah. I feel like it’s always fair to ask your provider, “What’s your Cesarean rate?” A lot of the time, they will say, “I don’t know.” They know. They know. That’s something that they need to be able to give you. It’s okay to ask that. “What percentage of your deliveries end in a Cesarean?” 

Alma: Yeah. Being direct is really the easiest way to know clearly where they stand. 

Meagan: Yeah, absolutely. 

I wanted to really quickly talk just slightly about gestational diabetes. There’s a lot when it comes to gestational diabetes. We know, just like you had experienced, that most providers suggest an induction. They just do. 

According to the American Pregnancy Association, gestational diabetes occurs in 2-5% of pregnancies which is decent. For those who are at a higher risk in their pregnancy, it may be even higher up to 9%, but a lot of them are controlled like yours were through diet or even through insulin and things like exercise. A lot of people are controlling them. 

Evidence Based BirthⓇ, which I want to make sure that this is linked in our show notes and our blog so if you want to go read more about gestational diabetes or you had gestational diabetes with your last pregnancy and you may have it again, definitely go check it out. They talked about how there is actually very little data in how often people are actually induced because of the diagnosis of gestational diabetes. 

But in one of the retrospective studies, they found that out of 330,000 births from 2001-2007, they saw– okay, let’s see. It says, “The people in the study came from six health insurance plans, many different hospitals and regions, and represented a large and diverse population. Health insurance plans datas were linked to birth certificate data in order to improve accuracy compared to using birth certificates alone.” 

Going down a little bit further, they said, “Overall, 30% of labors were induced. When they looked at the reasons for induction, 59% of labors were induced for an accepted medical reason and 41% were considered to be elective.” Those are pretty big numbers to me. 

Alma: Yeah. Yes. Yeah, those are big. 

Meagan: Yeah, those are really big numbers. It goes on. It talks about, does gestational diabetes always mean induction? What’s the evidence for randomized controlled trials? They go way into it because Rebecca Dekker is amazing, and their team is incredible. We will also have our blog linked because I believe this is a really important topic to know more about especially if you’ve had it so you can make the right decision. And how you said, you were like, “I was in a controlled state. Everything was controlled through my diet, and I could have likely gone further,” but you didn’t. You weren’t really encouraged to go further. It was like, “Let’s induce.” 

Alma: Yeah, it literally was just like that. There was no conversation about it. 

Meagan: Yeah. No conversation about it. I think that’s where we’re going wrong a lot in the medical system. A lot of the time, there is no conversation. Even though we have the power to start that conversation, sometimes it’s really difficult when we’re being told, “Your provider thinks this. Your baby is in danger. You’re in danger if you don’t do these things.” It’s like, “Okay. Okay. I’ll do those things,” but we need to have those conversations. I think that again, having the education and knowing the evidence behind it, and the risks and the benefits and all of those things, it will help you have that conversation if and when the time is needed. 

So, thank you so much for chatting with us today and sharing your stories and giving us advice, and leaning into more conversations for gestational diabetes. I think it’s something that is happening. A lot of people are getting it. There are things we can do even before pregnancy like really increasing our protein and things. But sometimes, it just happens. It just happens. 

Alma: I will say just to be clear, the second pregnancy, I did not have gestational diabetes. 

Meagan: Okay. 

Alma: That was also something. That was my biggest concern. The two points I mentioned were that the conditions were that I couldn’t have gestational diabetes, and I needed to deliver before 40 weeks. But this goes along with education. I did my best to improve my diet even pre-pregnancy to avoid that diagnosis. It was actually a miracle that my blood test came back really well. I almost thought this was the wrong test because it wasn’t elevated at all. I was really, really thankful that through some dietary changes and lifestyle changes, I didn’t have gestational diabetes at all. 

Then the second point about giving birth before 40 weeks, it was a spontaneous labor at 38 weeks which also was so supernatural. I really thank God. Everything happened really perfectly. Yeah. That was really a blessing.

Meagan: Yes. Oh, thank you so much for everything. You are amazing.

Alma: Oh, thank you. 

Meagan: We just love you.

Alma: Thank you so much. I had a great time sharing the story, and I hope it encourages other women as well. 

Meagan: It will, for sure. 

Alma: Great. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“Hospital Policy means the principles, rules, and guidelines adopted by the Hospital, which may be amended, changed, or superseded from time to time.”

Julie and Meagan break down hospital policies today, especially common ones you’ll hear when it comes to VBAC. They chat all about VBAC agreement forms and policies surrounding continuous fetal monitoring, induction, and epidurals. 

Women of Strength, hospital policies are not law. They vary drastically from hospital to hospital. Some are evidence-based. Some are convenience-based. Do your research now to make sure you are not surprised by policies you are not comfortable with during labor!

Defining Hospital Policy

Birth Rights Article

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Welcome, everybody. We are going to be talking about policies today. What do they mean? Why are they created? And when do we have the right to say no or do we have the right to say no?

And I have Julie discussing this with me today. Hey. 

Julie: You know I’m a policy fighter. 

Meagan: Yes, we do. We do. The longer I have gone– in the beginning, I was not a policy fighter. I really wasn’t. I was a go-with-the-flow, sure, okay, let’s do it, you know best. That’s really how I was. 

Julie: A lot of people are. 

Meagan: That’s true. I think a lot of the time, it’s because we don’t know what our options are. We just don’t know, so I’m really excited to get into this with you today. 

I always love it because we kind of get into this spicy mood sometimes when we have topics like this that we are very passionate about. We are going to be talking about policies today. I do have a Review of the Week, and this is actually a very recent review which is so fun. We just posted on our social media for Google reviews. We were specifically looking for Google reviews and podcast reviews. 

These are so, so important for us but also for other people to find this platform. We want people to hear these stories. We want people to feel inspired and get educated and know their rights. Your reviews truly do matter, so if you have not yet, please, please, please do so. You can leave a review on your podcast platform, or you can go over to Google and just type in “The VBAC Link”, and then you can type in a review there. 

This reviewer is by Savannah, and she says, “I started listening to The VBAC Link Podcast around 16 weeks pregnant and continued throughout y pregnancy. It was so good and encouraging for me as a mama who was preparing for my VBAC. It helped me gain confidence, helped me know what to look for, and what to watch out for in my providers. Hearing others’ stories was so encouraging and helped me gain so much knowledge. I had my hospital VBAC unmedicated with my 8-pound, 15-ounce baby.” You guys, 8-pound, 15-ounce baby is a perfect-sized baby let me just say. 

“And I know that the knowledge I gained from this podcast played a huge role in being able to advocate for myself to get my birth outcome.” Huge congrats, Savannah, on your beautiful VBAC for your perfect-sized baby. I say that because you guys, let’s get rid of the “big baby” term. Let’s just title these babies as perfect-sized because an 8-pound, 15-ounce baby for some providers may be categorized as larger or maybe even macrosomic. 

it’s really important to know that your baby is the perfect size and your pelvis is amazing. You can do it just like our reviewer, Savannah. 

Julie: Your pelvis is amazing. 

Meagan: Seriously. All right, you cutie. Look at you. Did you just get a haircut, by the way?

Julie: I did, yesterday. It’s a little short. We did some color. It’s a little smidgey shorter, but then I think I wanted it to still go in a low ponytail for births. That was my goal. 

Meagan: I’m totally digging it. 

Julie: Thank you.

Meagan: I should be having fresh hair, but my cute hair lady bailed on me the morning of my hair appointment. 

Julie: Oh no! 

Meagan: Sometimes we have matching nails, but we would have had matching nails. We don’t have them today. 

You guys, we just miss each other. I miss you. 

Julie: Yeah. We need to go to lunch again. 

Meagan: We do. 

Yes. We love shopping, you guys. Let’s talk about hospital policies. 

Julie: Let’s do it. 

Meagan: We know that so many people go into– not even just birth, but really a lot of things in the medical world. They just go to a doctor’s office visit or go to a small procedure, or whatever it may be, and these places have policies. I want to talk about what it means. What does a hospital policy mean? What is the definition? 

The definition, according to lawinsider.com, says, “Hospital policy means the principals, rules, and guidelines adopted by a hospital which may be amended, changed, or superseded from time to time.” 

Julie: Oh, I love that addition. Amended, changed, or superseded. 

Meagan: Yep. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah. It can. 

Julie: And it does. 

Meagan: And it does. It does. 

Julie: It does. 

Meagan: You guys, let’s just start off right now with the fact of a hospital policy– or a policy, okay? A policy in general is not law. It is not law. If you decide to decline a hospital policy– 

Julie: It is well within your rights. 

Meagan: Well within your rights. 

You could get some kickback. You could probably expect it. 

Julie: You probably will. 

Meagan: But, that’s okay. That’s okay. My biggest advice is if you are receiving or being told that this is a hospital policy, and you disagree with the policy, or maybe you agree with the policy for someone else, but for you, it’s not working, and you say no, and they say, “Well, –”

Julie: “It’s hospital policy.” 

Meagan: “This policy is policy, and if you choose to break it, then you can sign an AMA.” 

Julie: You are so funny. “This policy is policy.” It’s like that though. 

Meagan: That’s literally what they say. 

Julie: They say, “It’s hospital policy.” And you say, “Well, I don’t agree with that policy.” “Well, it’s hospital policy.”

Meagan: “Well, it’s policy.” Okay. Well, I’m telling you I don’t like your stupid policy. 

Julie: I don’t like your stupid policy. We are spicy, huh? 

Meagan: I mean it, though. I think I maybe shared this a little bit, but I had a client who had a home birth planned. She decided to go to the hospital because she had preeclampsia, and this nurse was not giving her her baby. She kept saying, “It’s policy. It’s policy. It’s policy.” I was like, “This mom’s word trumps your policy.” As a doula, I was getting into some rocky, choppy waters I was feeling. I could just feel the tension building. It did not feel comfortable at all. 

I looked at my client. 

Julie: You’re just like, “Give her her doggone baby.” 

Meagan: They could kick me out. They could. I need you to know that they really could kick me out. She was like, “That’s okay. I want my baby.” So I pushed. I pushed. I pushed and I pushed. We did get her her baby, but we had to fight. We really, really, really had to fight, and it sucks. It really, really sucks. 

So there is a website called pregnancyjusticeus.org. We’re going to have this. I have not actually gone through all of it. It is– how many pages is this, Julie? It is a lot of pages. It is 65 pages, you guys. It’s 65 pages of birthright information, going through a lot. 

Julie: It will be linked in the show notes. 

Meagan: Yes, it sure will. If you want to go through this, I highly encourage it. It is from Birth Rights and Birth Rights Bar Association, the National Advocates for Pregnant Women. Like I said, it’s 65 pages, but what they said in here I just think is so powerful. 

It says, “There is no point in pregnancy in which people lose their civil and human rights, and yet all over the world, people often experience mistreatment and violations of their rights during pregnancy and birth and postpartum.” We see these things. 

Julie: You need to make that a social media post. People need to know this. 

Meagan: Yes. Down here even further, it says, “We also know that doulas and other people providing support to pregnant and birthing people often bear witness to rights violation of clients of loved ones. In a recent survey, 65% of doulas and nurses indicated that they had witnessed providers occasionally or “often” engage in procedures explicitly against their patients’ wishes.” 

This is a serious issue. 

Julie: It is a serious issue. I feel like it’s really frustrating, especially as a birth photographer where my lines as a doula are very separate, but I always doula a little bit at every birth I go to. It’s not hands-on stuff always, but it’s hard when you see people getting taken advantage of and they don’t know they are being taken advantage of and they don’t know that they have options or choices and they don’t know that they can decline or request changes, and that’s probably the hardest part is that people just don’t know. 

I have a little tangent, but I’m in this Facebook support group for this medication that I’m on. It really amazes me continuously about how little people know about a medication that they are taking, a pretty serious medication that they are taking, and how little their doctors inform them of what the medication is and what some of the side effects and issues are, and what they can reasonably expect from it because some people have completely unreasonable expectations because they haven’t dug into it at all. 

The other day, somebody said something like, “I’ve been really, really tired and fatigued since I started this medication, but I called my doctor and she said that fatigue is not a common side effect with this medication,” and I’m like, “What?” It’s literally listed on the manufacturer’s website that it’s a side effect. It’s listed on the insert for the medication. It’s talked about all the time in this Facebook group, and it can be caused by a number of things that this medication affects. 

The fact that either her doctor didn’t know or just told her– anyway, it leads me. I promise there’s a point to this. It leads me to the fact that your doctor does not know everything about everything, especially a family doctor. This medication is prescribed by family doctors sometimes and endocrinologists. It is impossible for them to know everything about everything. 

Something like obstetrics and gynecology is more specialized so it is more focused. It is a more centralized area of study, but still, your doctor doesn’t know everything about everything. It is not uncommon for them to not keep up in advancements in medications and technology and practices as they evolve. 

It’s very, very common for the medical community to be 10-15 years behind the current research and evidence. It just is. Doctors and nurses and all of these things who have to have to have a certain number of contact numbers per year to keep up with training and education, but it is impossible for them to keep up with everything. It is okay for you to have different opinions than your provider. It’s okay for you to want different things than is hospital policy, and it is perfectly reasonable for you to make those requests and for those requests to be honored. It is also okay for you to know more about a particular thing than your provider might. 

Meagan: Yep. 

Julie: Period, exclamation point, shazam. 

Meagan: Well, we’ve talked about this with other providers. We’ve heard other stories where people come in. They have stats that their providers haven’t even seen. They just get stuck in their own way and their policies, and there are other things going on outside, so they just point-blank say, “No, this is how it is,” and you might have more information. That doesn’t mean you are more educated or qualified or whatever to be a doctor. 

Julie: Yeah, exactly. 

Meagan: It doesn’t mean, “Oh, I might as well be a doctor because I know this information and you don’t,” but it means that you may have found information that your provider is not aware of. It is okay for you to bring that to their attention. In fact, do it. Congratulations for them to find out the information that they might not have known yet, so they can do better for the next patient. 

Julie: I want to say that there is an attitude with some medical care providers of, “Don’t confuse your Google search with my medical degree.” 

Meagan: Yes. 

Julie: Come on. I really have a big problem when people get like that because first of all, and I’ve said this before, and I will continue to say it again, we have at our fingertips access to the largest amount of information ever available in humankind ever at our desktops. We can sit down, and you can go and find information and studies related to anything ever. 

Yes, don’t go looking at Joe Blow down the street’s opinion about childbirth or whatever. Yes, that might be a credible source. It might not be, but you can literally find these same studies, the same research, and the same information that these providers have access to in their path to their medical degree. Is it extensive? No. Are you going to have the hands-on experience that they have doing these procedures and C-sections and things like that? No, you’re not, but you still have access to the same information that they have access to. 

I have a big problem when providers have this arrogant attitude that they know more. Yes, they do know more generally. They might not know more when it comes down to specific things that have been updated since they have gotten out of school. 

Meagan: Yeah. I feel like in a lot of ways, we hear these policies and these things come up, and you’re like, “But where?” Then they can’t show you the policy or stat. 

Julie: Yeah, then they’ll be like, “You’re 20x more likely to rupture.” You’re like, “Can you send me the research?” They’re like, “It’s the way we’ve always done it.”

Meagan: I did a one-on-one consult, and a provider told someone that they had this astronomical amount of percentage of rupturing, and I was like, “Wait, what?” 

Julie: Seriously. 

Meagan: I was like, “Please challenge your provider and ask them for that.” She did, and they were unable to give her that. We can just hear things, and if we just take them, it can be scary, and it can impact decisions when maybe that’s not true. 

I also want to talk about policy for providers. Their policy should be that everyone should have informed consent. They have policies, too, that not only you have to follow or that they have to follow. It’s a whole thing. There are many policies. Your provider really has to explain the risks, benefits, and alternatives for any medical procedure, intervention, or anything coming your way, but we see it not happening most of the time. We just see people doing stuff because it’s within their normal routine but it’s breaking policy which is so frustrating to me. So you can break policy? I want intermittent monitoring. I don’t want consistent monitoring. I’m breaking a policy? 

Julie: So what?

Meagan: So what? 

Julie: So what? Sorry. 

Meagan: Let’s talk a little bit more about VBAC and policies surrounding VBAC. We know that policies are just there. They’ve been created. During COVID, holy Hannah. We saw these policies change weekly, you guys. 

Julie: Daily. 

Meagan: Yeah, seriously. They went in and they were like, “This is our new policy. This is our new policy. This is our new policy,” and I was like, “What?” 

Julie: It was freaking whiplash.

Meagan: Yes, it was horrible. It was horrible. But they can change a policy just like that. You can say no to a policy just like that. 

So, okay. Sorry. I digress. Let’s go back. Let’s talk about what policies often surround VBAC. I know a lot of the time, in hospitals all over, it’s a policy that midwives cannot treat VBAC. Or you can’t be induced because it’s a policy. You can’t induce VBAC. 

We talked about this before we started recording, and I said it just now. It has to be consistent monitoring. 

Julie: Yeah. Well, can I just do a little bit of a timeout and a rewind for half a second? Hospitals are businesses, okay? I just want to explain this to everybody. Hospitals are businesses. I think we know that. You don’t have to have that explained. 

Businesses, in order for them to run efficiently and smoothly, need to have policies, guidelines, best practices, standards of care, procedures, and things like that. It is a business. It is okay for them to set parameters for which they want their providers and nurses and everybody who is at the hospital to operate under, right? It’s okay for them to have those things. It’s okay for them to set those because if you didn’t have those, the business would fall apart. Everybody would be doing whatever the heck they want. 

There would be a lot of disorder, right? 

Meagan: Yes. 

Julie: So policies and procedures and these best practices and things like that are created in order to keep things aligned and have a nice model of care so that they can be more cost-efficient so that the patients know what to expect so that the providers have a routine and things like that. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: There are reasons for these things. However, when we like to push back, when we are bothered, and the thing that really is frustrating about these policies is when they are put in place so rigidly that there’s no flexibility and that it takes away a patient’s autonomy, and that it removes individualized care from the birth experience. 

So this is why we want to talk about this. This is why we don’t think all policies are dumb. No, we don’t. We see the reason. We understand why they are in place. However, we want you to know that it is well within your rights as a human to decline and request changes for these policies, and to desire something different, and to have that desire respected. 

It’s hard when some providers and nurses get so stuck in the fact that, “This is policy,” that they take away your autonomy and your right to choose. That’s what we’re pushing back against, and that’s what we want you to know. These policies are not law. You have the right to want something different and to request something different, and to have that right respected. Okay.

Meagan: Absolutely. Absolutely. I couldn’t agree more. I do think it can be really hard because they have these things to keep order and to keep things tidy.

Julie: And with the intention to keep you safe. 

Meagan: Yes.

Julie: But sometimes intentions don’t always translate well. But anyway. 

Meagan: Yeah. But really quickly before we get into what policies surrounding VBAC are, when we start questioning policy, there are things that can come into play where there are threats, there is coercion, there is gaslighting that starts happening because they are really panicked that you are questioning their policy. They feel very uncertain that you are questioning that. 

Julie: They may even feel unsafe, or they might never have had the policy challenged before so they don’t know what to do about it. Right?

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Just know that if people are coming at you with, “Well, if you don’t do this, then this,” or whatever it may be, then it can get intense, but you can still say no. You can also ask for a copy of that policy. Again, even though that policy isn’t law, you can still ask for it. 

Julie: Ideally, you can do this before labor begins because it’s really hard to fight and bump up against these policies during labor. 

Meagan: Yeah. 

Julie: It’s going to be a lot harder. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let’s go in. 

I talked a little bit about fetal monitoring. 

Julie: Induction. 

Meagan: Not being seen by certain people. No induction. Or the opposite. 

Julie: You have to be induced. 

Meagan: You have to be induced. 

Julie: By such and such a date. 

Meagan: Yes. It’s just so funny because it varies all over. 

Julie: It does vary all over. 

Meagan: Let’s talk about it. Okay, so fetal monitoring. 

Julie: Don’t forget epidural placement too. 

Meagan: Yes. Epidurals. 

Julie: We can talk about that. That’s my favorite one to argue against. Anyways. Okay.

Meagan: There are so many. Okay, let’s talk about fetal monitoring. What is the policy typically behind continuous fetal monitoring?

Julie: Yeah, so most hospitals– in fact, I’ve never met a hospital where this hasn’t been the hospital policy– is that continuous fetal monitoring is required for everybody, but especially for VBAC. They double down for VBAC because one of the first signs of uterine rupture, especially for someone who has an epidural, is irregular fetal heart tones. That can be one of the first signs of uterine rupture. Most hospitals are very, very adamant about having continuous fetal monitoring, especially for people who are undergoing a TOLAC which is a trial of labor after a Cesarean. It’s not a bad word. It’s just how it’s defined in the medical community before you have your VBAC.

The reason they do that, like I just said— but honestly, if you don’t have an epidural and if you aren’t under any type of pain medication, the first sign of uterine rupture for you is going to be really intense pain. That’s going to be your first sign. Especially if you are going unmedicated, I think it’s perfectly reasonable to request intermittent monitoring. 

Do you want me to go into why they introduced fetal monitoring in the first place?

Okay, in the early 1970s, we saw lots of rapid advancements in the medical field and technology related to the medical field. Things like continuous fetal monitoring got introduced. Antibiotics became more readily accessible. The procedures themselves, especially the C-section procedure, became perfected and easier to do with fewer complications and fever rates of infections. All sorts of things started happening at a really rapid pace in the early 1970s. One of the things that got introduced was continuous fetal monitoring. 

The intention behind the continuous fetal monitoring when it got introduced was to decrease the rates of cerebral palsy in infants. Cerebral palsy usually happens when during either pregnancy or labor, oxygen is deprived to the brain of the baby. It can cause a stroke and damage part of the white matter in the brain. 

The idea behind it was if you could catch the reduced flow of oxygen to the baby by monitoring its heart rate, you could intervene and do a C-section in time to get the baby out before cerebral palsy happens, essentially. 

The interesting thing about that is that after continuous fetal monitoring was introduced, there was no change in the rate of cerebral palsy. It stayed the same. It still is very similar. But what it did do is that it was one component that increased the rates of C-sections and other interventions. They are more likely to take a baby out due to nonreassuring fetal heart tones, and we’ve seen no improvement in maternal mortality and morbidity rates and infant mortality rates either with the introduction of all of these interventions. 

Meagan: Yeah. One of the reasons why they say that it’s mandatory for VBACs specifically is because fetal heart tones decelerating is one of the signs, one of many, that a uterine rupture may be taking place. 

Julie: Right, right. I said that. 

Meagan: Oh, you did. 

Julie: Yeah. 

Meagan: I was reading the link. I missed that. 

Julie: No, no. You’re fine. Say it again. It’s okay.

Meagan: No, you’re fine. Okay. So with uterine rupture, fetal heart decels are not always a symptom of uterine rupture. What do you feel like it means? I feel like so many people feel more comfortable having their baby on the monitor so they can hear them. 

Julie: Oh, they do. You know what? The staff is more likely to do that too. This is really sad, but we have a labor and delivery culture that is very, very comfortable sitting at a desk down a hall watching a monitor to see how a patient is doing rather than remaining in the room and watching them. They rely more on what is going on on the contraction monitor and the heart rate monitor than they do the visible signs of the patient. It’s how they’ve been trained. It’s how they monitor dozens of people at once in a labor and delivery unit, and I feel like continuous fetal monitoring and the contraction monitor are other ways that de-individualizes care. 

I don’t know if that’s a word. It takes out the individuality. It takes out the rights to the human and it takes out really watching the person, and relies too much on the data. Data is good. I love data. Don’t get me wrong. I am a data junkie 110%, but data can only take you so far. I feel like that’s why people freak out about the continuous fetal monitor thing. “How are we supposed to know if you’re doing okay at the desk because we can’t see the chart on the screen if we’re not monitoring you continuously?” It puts more work on them, which is okay. 

I can’t imagine being a labor and delivery nurse because sometimes you have more than one patient that you’re monitoring and watching, and you’ve got lots of other things to do including charting and all of this stuff. 

Meagan: Yeah, this is one of those things that was created that even though the evidence didn’t prove that the reason why it was created worked out, it stayed because it brought ease to monitoring labor, and monitoring it not in the same room, and being able to have five other patients while seeing a chart. 

Okay, so fetal monitoring is one. Let’s talk about the induction or the non-induction that we’ve seen policies on both ways which also is so weird to me. I know it’s hospital to hospital, but why aren’t we going off of evidence?

Julie: Dude, dude. Do you know what is so funny to me? I will also cry this out from the rooftops until I die, but if you really want to understand what maternal healthcare is like in the United States, you’ve got to talk to a doula or a birth photographer because we see not only hospital births and home births and birth center births, but we see all of the different hospitals and how they vary in hospital policy. It is so funny to me sometimes the conversations that I hear or have with labor and delivery nurses who insist one thing, then the next labor and delivery nurse in the next hospital insists on something completely different. 

“Oh, it’s not safe to go past 20 for Pitocin on VBAC,” then the next hospital will be like, “Yeah, it’s perfectly safe as long as you are monitored and the OB signs off on it.” It’s so up, down, and sideways based on whatever this specific hospital policy is. It’s not their fault which is why sometimes I like travel nurses in labor and delivery units because they go all around the country and have vastly different experiences with all the different hospitals. It’s fun to see the culture shift that can come in when that happens. 

Meagan: Yeah. Okay, so in some hospitals, it is policy that you have to go into labor spontaneously. 

Julie: Yeah. They will not induce for VBAC. Oh, but if you haven’t had your baby by 40 weeks, it’s hospital policy to do a C-section. 

Meagan: Yeah, they will not induce you, but then if you don’t go into labor by 40 weeks, they have to schedule a C-section. What’s the evidence there, and why is that even being a policy?

A lot of providers after 40 weeks fear or they say that VBAC uterine rupture chances skyrocket after 40 weeks because, “Oh, that baby is getting bigger. They’re stretching that uterus out,” but that’s really not necessarily the case. We’re seeing it happen more and more and more where people are then doubting their body’s ability to give birth or go into labor. They are so scared that their baby’s going to get so big that they’re going to cause uterine rupture if they go past 40 weeks. I mean, really. You guys, the amount of things that we see coming in The VBAC Link’s DM’s– I love that you guys write us. Please keep writing us, but it’s frustrating, not that you’re writing us, but that these providers are telling people these things. 

Then we have the opposite that we have to induce by 40 weeks. 

Julie: Can I read you this thing? There’s a post in The VBAC Link Community today. It was a VBAC agreement form. If you’re birthing at a hospital, you’re more than likely going to have to sign a piece of paper showing all of the risks of VBAC, but they don’t ever make you do that for a C-section. 

This hospital VBAC policy, hold on. I was reading it this morning. Listen to this. This is word for word from this VBAC agreement form from a hospital. “I am aware that the best chance for a successful VBAC is to go into spontaneous labor, and that the risk of Cesarean section is increased past my due date. In an effort to afford me the best chance of achieving VBAC, I agree to be induced the 39th week of pregnancy or sooner if medical issues are present if I am still pregnant.”

In that same paragraph, they say that the best chance of a successful VBAC is going into spontaneous labor, but if you don’t go into labor by 39 weeks, we’re going to induce you. 

Meagan: It also says that after 40 weeks, Cesarean chances increase so we have to induce a whole week before. 

Julie: Yeah. Right? 

Meagan: I’m sorry. 

Julie: This is real life. How is this even a thing? Blah, blah, blah. That’s what I say. Screw your policy. How can you contradict yourself like that? It says, “The risk of a Cesarean section is increased past my due date, but it’s also increased if you induce me, so either way I have increased risk.” This is literally what they are telling you in this form that they make you sign. 

Meagan: You know, those forms are so important to pay attention to, you guys. As you are getting these forms, the VBAC consent forms, or VBAC agreement forms or whatever. They title them all differently. 

Julie: I’m just reading this hospital policy more. Sorry. “I am aware of the hospital policy requiring two IV access sites.” 

Meagan: Okay. Today, which you guys, was last– I’m trying to think. It was a month ago. Okay, a month ago– I recorded the episode today, but a month ago, when this is coming out. Go listen to Paige’s midwifery episode. She just was talking about that. That is a policy within the hospital that she helps people at. They have two hep locks. This was news to me as of today, and now you are seeing this in this policy. Why? Why? What is the evidence behind that? Why?

Julie: This VBAC agreement form is every single thing that we are talking about. “I agree to have continuous fetal monitoring. I am aware of this policy by this obstetric group–.” I won’t say it because maybe we shouldn’t call them out. Maybe we should. “--to require epidural placement by the time of active labor. I am aware of the implication that certain complications of labor can be life-threatening to myself and my baby. These can only be addressed promptly at the hospital. To lessen the risk of delay during a complication, I agree (in bold)--”

Meagan: Yes. All of the agrees are in bold.

Julie: “--to come to the hospital immediately if I am in labor or if my water breaks.”

Meagan: Ugh. 

Julie: “I have been adequately about the risks, benefits, and alternatives of VBAC, and have the opportunity to ask questions. I am aware that no one is able to guarantee a successful VBAC and that repeat C-section may be indicated if my baby is breech, I do not adequately dilate, I am able to push my baby out, my baby does not tolerate labor, there is a concern for uterine rupture, or if any unforeseen medical issue arises during my pregnancy which makes labor unsafe–” according to who?

Anyways, “certain methods of induction of labor are not permitted to be used in patients with prior Cesarean sections. I understand that if I am induced, the only safe options include medical dilation with a balloon, Pitocin, and breaking my water.” That, I feel like, is accurate. 

Meagan: That is valid. That is valid. Okay.

Julie: That’s the only one. Cool. 

Meagan: Cool. Out of ten. 

Julie: Are you reading this right now? Do you have it up?

Meagan: Yes. I pulled it up. 

Let’s talk about epidural. You guys, this has 86 comments already. One of the commenters said, “You absolutely do not need to get an epidural, have continuous monitoring, or go into the hospital when labor begins. These are often things to avoid when trying for a VBAC.” 

Julie: Yes. Yes. 

Meagan: You absolutely can have these things. “You can have these things, but having an epidural before 6 centimeters can put you at a higher risk of Cesarean including continuous monitoring. Your rights override policies.” This is what she said. She said, “Are you in the States? Did you sign this?” 

Julie: But I love what Flor Cruz with Badass Mother Birth said. “This is atrocious. Run. I would rather give birth in the woods by myself than to agree with this monstrosity.” 

Meagan: Really, though. We have so many things coming at us. We’re so vulnerable when we are pregnant, and we want a VBAC so badly. We have forms like this being given, or we have policies being thrown at us, and we say, “Just say no,” but when you’re in that moment, it’s really difficult. 

I think something that I want to say is, as you are learning these policies, as you’re learning more, figure out if you are someone who can stand up to these policies and say no, or figure out if there’s someone on your team who you need to have be there to help you find the strength to say no. Also, make sure that your family knows and your team knows what’s important to you when it comes to these policies. What triggers you? It is very difficult to say no or, “I am not going to do that,” or to not even say a word because they just strap the monitors on you, or call anesthesia because they just did a cervical exam, and the nurse logged that you’re 6 centimeters, so anesthesia is just coming down, but you might be doing really well and not want an epidural. 

Okay, I want to talk about epidurals. 

Julie: Let’s talk about epidurals. Jinx. Let’s do it. 

This is my favorite policy to tear apart and rip apart. Here’s the thing. The reason why they tell you they want an epidural placed, but you don’t have to have it turned on, just to have it placed just in case, is if a uterine rupture happens, you can dose up the epidural and go back to surgery, and they don’t have to put you under anesthesia. It sounds great, right? Cool, yeah. Let’s do that. That sounds great. I don’t want to go under general anesthesia if I have to have a C-section. 

Here’s the problem with that. First of all, going under general anesthesia does carry more risks than having surgery with a spinal or an epidural. It does. That’s just common knowledge. Nobody is going to argue that here. We get that. 

The problem is that in a true emergency, we’re talking about seconds matter. Minutes matter. If you have a catastrophic uterine rupture and baby has to be out now, baby has to be out in minutes or less. They are going to do a splash and dash. They are going to throw the antiseptic, the orange stuff– 

Meagan: Iodine? 

Julie: Iodine. They’re going to throw iodine on your belly, and they’re going to slice you open. Sorry, that was a very not-sensitive way to say that. They’re going to take the baby out as fast as possible once you’re in the OR. They have to knock you out under general anesthesia. There is not enough time to dose an epidural, especially if it’s not ever turned on. But even if it is turned on, it takes 20 minutes or more to get an epidural dose to surgical strength to where you will not feel the incision and the surgery that comes with a C-section. 15-20 minutes at minimum in order to get you dosed to surgical strength. 

If you have an epidural, and it is urgent where minutes matter, you will have to go under general anesthesia no matter what, period. If a C-section is needed, there is time to give you a spinal which takes effect in just a few minutes, 3-4 minutes. It takes some time to get the anesthesiologist in and the OR prepped and things like that, but usually and realistically, if it’s something that’s urgent but not emergent, you can get a baby out in 10-15 minutes without already having an epidural placed. 

Here’s the thing. Placing an epidural is preparing you for surgery, period. If there’s an emergency, you will have to be put under general anesthesia, period. If a C-section is needed, and minutes don’t matter, but we need to get this baby out soon, you can get a spinal, period. So, screw that epidural hospital policy. It’s literally for convenience so you already have an epidural placed so that they can take you back to do a C-section. 

Meagan: Yeah. But again, the epidural just doesn’t get in fast enough even if it’s placed or not. 

Julie: Exactly. 

Meagan: Ugh, I hate it. I hate when it’s like, “I don’t want an epidural, but I’m getting it just in case.” Okay, then going back to this policy that she was just reading, “will not labor at home. If my water breaks, I have to come right in.” 

You guys, if you want to labor at home, do your research. I understand. Always, always– I don’t even care if you are a VBAC or you’re planning an induction or what. Always learn the signs of uterine rupture, always. It’s so important to know. Even though it happens very little, it happens, and we need to know the signs. But, it’s okay to labor at home. Talk to your provider about that. If they are like, “The second you have a contraction, you have to come in,” that is a red flag. 

You guys, they also start monitoring and pushing induction even though your labor has been going. They induce your labor more. They get it going further. What if you’re having prodromal labor, and it’s just going, and then it stops for 5 hours? There are so many things. I’m no provider. I can’t say, “You must labor at home,” or “You should really labor at home,” but really look at these things and understand what could happen if you choose to go in the second your water breaks. 

Let me tell you what happened to me. My water broke. I went straight in. Within an hour, I hadn’t progressed too much, so they started Pitocin. They immediately started Pitocin. They kept cranking it up. My body was struggling. I was struggling. My baby had a couple of decels. They called it. It’s just really, really frustrating. I mean, you guys. 

We have so many comments in this here that I could just read all of them because they say a lot. They say a lot. This is fear-based care. I’m sorry that you’re having to go through this.” “This is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard,” someone said. 

Julie: Seriously. 

Meagan: When it comes to hospital policy, it’s not a law. It’s really not a law. Stand up for yourself. Understand the policies surrounding VBAC. When you are looking for a provider, we cannot stress this enough. Ask them about their policies. If their policy is that you must get that just-in-case epidural, you have to have that baby by 40 weeks or we induce or we schedule a Cesarean, you have to come in the second a contraction starts, if your water breaks, you must come in. You have to come in. They’re making people sign these policies like they are the law. 

Julie: Yeah, like it’s a legal document like you can’t change your mind. That’s what it does. It makes people think they have to agree to things. “I signed the document, so here I go.” 

Meagan: Here I am. I have a written agreement, but they can change. What did it say? What did the very first definition say? It says, “It can be amended, changed, or superseded.” Supersede. 

Julie: Superseded. Yes. But here’s the thing, too. I’m kind of glad when hospitals do this because it shows you all of the red flags. It lines out the red flags, no questions, black and white, red flags laid out for you. Then you know either how to address them before labor, or how to hightail it out of there and find another practice because nothing is worse than getting blindsided during labor by a policy that you don’t agree with and having to advocate to change that during labor.

I would encourage you if your provider doesn’t make you sign a wonky form, then before you even start care with them, find out what their hospital policies are about VBAC. Find out so that you can address them ahead of time. Have your provider sign off on changes to policy that you want, and put it in your medical records so that if you get a different provider on the day that you go into labor, that provider can access your records and see that it has been signed off, or approved, or whatever your changes are that they are going to make to the policy for you and your specific needs. It is okay to ask for that. It is okay to fight for that. It is necessary to fight for that sometimes. 

Obviously, it would be ideal for you to find a birth location whose policies align with the things that you want. Sometimes, somebody might want continuous fetal monitoring. Maybe it makes them feel better mentally. Maybe that’s just their preference, and that’s okay. It’s okay to want that, but it’s not okay to let a system dictate how you want to birth when you want something different. 

Meagan: Yes. Absolutely. It’s also not okay for you to feel cornered or like you’re bad, coerced, or you’re a bad mom because you’re making a decision that goes against a policy. I don’t like that. I do not like that. It’s not okay. I highly suggest going and checking out the show notes and reading more about your birth rights, what they mean, and all of it. 

In part of that little birth rights document pdf, the 65-page document, it talks about down in the first 4 or 5 pages– let’s see. It says, “I have the right to–”, and then it has a whole bunch of things. It says, “To say no and be heard. To have my basic needs be met. To labor in the way that works for me. To birth vaginally. To know all of my options. To change midwives, doctors, and nurses. To not be touched. To ask people to leave. To feed my baby human milk. To leave the hospital or the birth center.” 

You guys, you have rights. You have rights. You are amazing. Use your rights if you are in a corner that feels like they are being taken away or they’re gaslighting you, or coercing you, or whatever it may be. You have rights. Check this document out. I highly suggest it. Talk to your providers. Check out their policies. Dissect the policies. Dissect them. Really break it down. What does that mean? Why is this being put on as a policy?

In one policy that Julie just read, it said that they will not induce, and that VBAC is not applicable to being induced with certain things other than x, y, and z. Okay, if you do the research and you learn about that, that is pretty dang valid. That is understandable. That policy has been put in place for your safety. Okay? 

But there are others that I would say no to. They may be thinking that it’s for your safety, but there is no evidence behind them. Dissect them. Learn them. Learn how to advocate for yourself. Get your team ready. Know it’s not a law, and love yourself because you deserve more. 

Okay. Anything else you’d like to add, Julie?

Julie: No. I love that. Love yourself. Take ownership. Take ownership of your own birth experience. Don’t give it to somebody else. Stand up for yourself. Take ownership. I love what you just said. Love yourself. You deserve to have choices in how you are treated during your birth experience. 

Meagan: Yes, absolutely. Okay, thanks, everybody. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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“Getting that VBAC meant everything to me. It helped so much with the trauma of it all.”

At 36 weeks along with her first, Ashley started to have intense carpal tunnel pain. At 38 weeks, it was unbearable. Her provider said that delivery would be the only way to find relief and recommended a 39-week induction. 

Ashley had a difficult labor and pushing experience. Her provider recommended a C-section due to a cervical lip and no progress after just an hour and a half. Ashley consented and felt defeated. She started her VBAC prep the day she got home from the hospital. 

At 29 weeks with her second, Ashley had plans for a beautiful trip to Saint Thomas with her husband and toddler. She began contracting the night before her flight but didn’t think much of it and made it to their gate– while still contracting. As the plane was boarding, she passed a blood clot in the airport. She knew she needed to go to the hospital. 

In spite of many interventions trying to stop labor, Ashley birthed her baby via VBAC just hours later. She later learned that she had a possible placental abruption that wasn’t detected until her doctor examined her placenta after delivery. 

Though Ashley’s postpartum experience was tough balancing life with a newborn in the NICU for 8 weeks while having a toddler at home, the victory of having a VBAC carried her through. 

The power of a positive birth experience is real and worth fighting for!

Pregnancy-Related Carpal Tunnel Article

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is Meagan with my friend, Ashley. Hello, Ashley. 

Ashley: Hi. 

Meagan: How are you today? 

Ashley: I am good. How are you doing?

Meagan: I am doing great. I’m loving all of the stories we are recording and so excited to hear yours. You have a more unique VBAC in the sense that it was a very premature VBAC. 

Ashley: Mhmm, yep. 

Meagan: Yes. We are going to talk a little bit more about that. You’re going to share information for NICU moms because your baby did go to the NICU. You are a mom of two and a children’s therapist. Can you tell us a little bit more about what you do for work? 

Ashley: Yeah. I work with kids ages 4-18. Right now, I’m Telehealth only. I actually work in Tooele, Utah, but I live in North Carolina. Everything is Telehealth. It happened with COVID. I was out there during COVID. We moved and continued to do Telehealth since I’ve moved. I really only see 10 and up at this point. Yeah. I see a lot of teenagers all through Telehealth and it’s really wonderful that I get to keep that up. 

Meagan: That’s so awesome. That’s awesome that you got to keep doing it, and that you are serving our children. I’m sure that you have lots to say about our children and their mental health that is going on out there, but there is a lot. It is a lot of these kiddos of ours. 

Ashley: Absolutely, yeah. It’s hard and challenging, but it’s also really wonderful and rewarding. I love that I get to do it. 

Meagan: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for all of your hard work out there. 

Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. 

Meagan: We do have a Review of the Week, so I want to get into that, then I really want to turn the time over to share both of these journeys. 

This review is from Sienna. It says, “After having a very hard conversation with my OB where I learned she was in fact not VBAC tolerant or friendly, I texted my best friend through tears pouring down my face and she immediately sent me a text back with The VBAC Link Podcast. Ever since, I have been listening to every episode of the podcast. It is so beyond helpful and inspiring for anyone preparing for a VBAC. I’m due at the September, and have made the goal to listen to every single episode before then. I can’t say enough for what Meagan and Julie are doing for women like me. I can’t wait to rock my VBAC.” 

Oh, I love that review. Thank you so much, Sienna, and I can’t wait for you to have an incredible VBAC. Way to go for realizing that your provider may not be the right provider for you. I think there are so many people who walk through the VBAC journey who think they may have a supportive provider, then at the very last minute, they are having those conversations and realizing, “Oh, shoot. I may not be in the right place.” It is okay to switch and keep interviewing and discussing with your provider. If your provider doesn’t feel like talking to you about your VBAC or says, “You’ve got months to go. We don’t need to talk about that right now,” those might be red flags and things you might want to reconsider. 

Thank you, Sienna, for your review. If you haven’t yet, please leave a review. You can Google us at “The VBAC Link” or you can leave it on the podcast platform that you are listening to us on.  

Okay, Ashley. Thank you again so much for being here with us. 

Ashley: Yeah, absolutely. I’m so happy to be here. I never thought I would be. When I was preparing for my VBAC, I was listening every single day during my walks and I just thought, “Oh, if I get a VBAC, that would be wonderful,” but I never thought I would ever be on the show. It’s crazy and wild to be here. 

Meagan: I love it. The more and more that we record, we learn that it goes full circle. We’re in your ear all pregnancy with all these Women of Strength sharing their stories, inspiring you, building you up, and now, here you are inspiring and building others up as well. 

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. It’s cool to be here. Do you want me to talk about my first?

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. Every VBAC starts with a C-section, so let’s start with your C-section story. 

Ashley: Yeah, for sure. For my first birth with my son, it was a pretty easy pregnancy for the most part. There were a couple of hiccups here and there. I had morning sickness in the beginning in the first trimester, but everything else was pretty smooth. 

At 13 weeks, I had a spell where I had a lot of bleeding. That was terrifying. I thought I was miscarrying. I called my provider and panicked. That was just the worst 4 hours of my life because I continuously bleed. They finally got me in for an ultrasound. They checked me and he was just really active and bouncing. They never knew why it happened, but I was fine. 

Meagan: Did they ever say anything about a subchorionic hematoma or anything like that?

Ashley: That kind of sounds familiar, so that could have been it for sure, but I don’t remember. But it stopped. After my ultrasound, the bleeding was done, and everything was fine. It was the weirdest thing, but definitely so scary. Yeah, it was terrifying. 

That was bad, and after that, after the first trimester, my morning sickness went away and everything was good for the most part. 

What happened though, I took birth classes. I took breastfeeding classes. I didn’t do a ton of research. I just took my little birth class, and I thought that was enough. I actually think I skipped the C-section part. I was like, “I’m not going to need that.” I don’t know why I was so weirdly confident that I was going to be able to have a vaginal birth, but it literally was something that I’m like, “I’m good,” and I didn’t put much thought into it. 

I don’t know why I did that. 

Meagan: A lot of people do. It’s not what we want. It’s not what we think is going to happen, so we just push it aside. 

Ashley: Yeah. Yeah. I didn’t do any research at all, so I didn’t need to know about that. I didn’t want it obviously, so yeah. 

Everything was good until about 36 weeks I would say. I started to get carpal tunnel and it just got progressively worse and worse. It was bad. The last month of my pregnancy, it was unbearable. My fingers and wrists were numb 24/7. It was waking me up at night how painful my hands and fingers were. I couldn’t do little things. I couldn’t put a necklace on anymore. I couldn’t put my earrings in because I couldn’t use my fingers. It was so bad, and it was something I didn’t know happened. It was pregnancy-induced carpal tunnel. 

I had so much swelling in my body. That’s what they said it was. My midwife who I had found and really loved, she referred me to PT. I did that. I did wrist braces every night, and nothing helped. I kind of knew that was going to happen just doing some research. They say the only thing that gets rid of it is delivering your baby basically. 

Meagan: Do they know why it really starts? Is it something within the blood flow? Do we know? We don’t know. 

Ashley: I don’t know. My midwife just chalked it up to the swelling. My carpal tunnel was being squeezed by the swelling. I’m pretty petite as is, and then I was carrying so much water and so much weight that I think for me, my body just didn’t respond well. I had the carpal tunnel. 

That was at 36 weeks when it started getting pretty bad. There wasn’t a lot we could do about it. I really didn’t want to have an induction. I didn’t know much about it either. I didn’t do a ton of research, but I knew I didn’t want it. I just knew I wanted it to all go as naturally as possible and for my baby to come on his own timeline. 

By 38 weeks, I was miserable. I was like, “I don’t think I can do this.” I was pretty big and uncomfortable, but that wasn’t the part that was killing me. It was the carpal tunnel. It was bad. 

My provider said that we could do the membrane sweep each week. We did it at 38 weeks. We did it at 39 weeks, and we decided that if nothing happened after my second sweep, we would think about an induction. I was ready. I had to stop working a week before I even wanted to because I couldn’t type anymore. It hurt to type, and I do a lot of assessments with my job where I am typing all of the time, using my mouse and keyboard. It was just awful. 

We did the membrane sweep at 39 weeks and nothing happened. I was curb walking. I was eating the dates. I was doing the things and drinking the tea. Nothing. 

So at 39+5, I got admitted for my induction at 8:00 PM. They did a Foley bulb, then they did the Cervadil I believe. That was all fine. I think they also gave me morphine. I think that’s when they did that to manage pain. I looked at my notes, but it’s kind of hard. Some things aren’t super clear. 

But either way, I got a really bad rash. At the time, they thought it was PUPPS, but looking back, they thought it was a reaction to the morphine. 

Meagan: Oh shoot. 

Ashley: Yeah. I was so horribly itchy. 

Meagan: Yeah, that’s miserable. You’re in pain and itchy. 

Ashley: Yeah, and the carpal tunnel was still active. That was still happening. I don’t remember it being super uncomfortable with the Foley bulb. I was more scared of it. I was more scared than it actually was painful. I was okay. I handled it okay. 

So then my water broke at 2:00 AM I believe. The Foley bulb came out and they started the Pitocin by 8:00 AM I believe because I wasn’t moving enough. I wasn’t dilating enough. My water broke at 2:00 AM. It was in at 8:00 AM. I started an epidural, I think, at 5:00 AM before the Pitocin because I was just in a lot of pain. 

That epidural, though, was done by a resident which I didn’t know at the time. That was one thing I really didn’t want. It wasn’t placed correctly, and I had a ton of breakthrough pain. It was horrible. They actually ended up rethreading that at, I don’t know, 4 hours later. They had to rethread the epidural, remove it, and put it back in by someone else. It was so bad. 

Meagan: You just had all of the things coming at you. 

Ashley: Yeah. I just say everything was botched from the start. It was during COVID. There wasn’t a lot of staff. I felt ignored. There were hours when I didn’t see anybody. The Pitocin wasn’t managed very well either. I feel like they never really increased it. 

Like I said, after they started Pitocin, I didn’t see anybody for 4 hours. It was absolutely horrible. 

Meagan: Wow. So they were just outside watching your strip, and you were doing okay so they were like, “All right, we’ll just leave her.” 

Ashley: I think so. There were no providers. There was barely anybody on staff. I shouldn’t say nobody was on staff. I should say that every single room was booked. They were at capacity, and they were low-staffed. It was just not great. 

I started Pitocin. I finally got to 8 centimeters. I had really, really bad back pain still, and then that was when the epidural was rethreaded or redone. So then it was just waiting for me to progress, but I couldn’t feel anything at that point. I think I was just maxed out on pain stuff on the epidural being rethreaded. I had no control over my body whatsoever. I couldn’t feel my legs. I couldn’t get up and move. It was so awful. I couldn’t feel contractions. I could see it on the monitor, and they would tell me I was having a contraction, but I couldn’t feel anything. 

By 5:00 PM, they told me, “Okay, it’s time to push.” I had no urges to push because I couldn’t feel anything. I started pushing. I remember just being really out of it because of the epidural. That, and I’m sure there was morphine still. I was just out of it. I did not feel good or in control of my body. 

I just remember they told me to push. I was pushing for an hour and a half. Every time, they’d be like, “Okay, it’s time to push.” I would try to push, but I felt like nothing was happening. I couldn’t feel anything. 

Meagan: Yeah.

Ashley: Yeah. I think that was probably the biggest reason why I had a C-section. I blame it on the no feeling and no control of my body. They had me push for an hour and a half, then they said that it wasn’t happening enough. I was at 9.5 centimeters. They could see his head, but they said there was a cervical lip. They told me I wasn’t getting past it is kind of what they said. They said, “You’re not going to be able to get past it.” 

So after an hour and a half, they told me– well, my midwife, and she wasn’t my midwife. She was whoever was on staff. She said, “I think we should talk about different options.” C-section came into it. She didn’t think I was going to get past the cervical lip. I stalled, so they had an OB come in and talk to me. They said, “Let’s bring him in and get his opinion.” 

He said the same thing, “I just don’t think you’re getting past this lip, and I think a C-section is the best course.” Looking back, I’m like, “I pushed for an hour and a half and they never tried to move me.” Given I couldn’t feel my body, they never tried to reposition me. Now, I know that if that had happened, give me some pressure. Help me sit up. Maybe I could put some pressure on it. I know it’s swollen, so putting pressure could have made it worse, but I just think there could have been so much more done that wasn’t done. 

Meagan: Yeah, and sometimes those cervical lips are baby’s head positioning. We’ve been pushing and aggravating the cervix, so rotating and getting the pressure off of the wrong spot and equalizing the pressure, or getting it over can help. Or sometimes that’s what it needs. It’s not the swelling, the cervix is just there, and it hasn’t progressed all the way, so pushing, and pushing, and pushing against that is what causes that swelling. 

Then movement, time, or rest– there are so many things. There are things like Benadryl or things like that and things to help swelling, but that’s unfortunate. They were understaffed, so I bet they were like, “We just have to have this baby.” 

Ashley: I think that’s a lot to do with it. I felt a lot of pressure to just get the C-section. No other interventions were offered. Nobody talked about moving. Nobody talked about letting me rest. Now I know, afterward, when I was prepping with my second birth, I was like, “Yeah, I should rest. Yeah, I should let my body move. Yes, there are things I should do.” I didn’t want an epidural, or I didn’t want one that strong. That was a huge mistake in my eyes. I had an epidural with my second and it was great, but with my first, they just overdosed me. They gave me way too much. 

I went to the OR. I had my baby via C-section. I was so out of it. They gave me more pain meds back there because they were going to cut me open, then I couldn’t feel my arms when I pulled my son out. They kept trying to hand him to me, and I could not move my arms. I was like, “Please stop.” It was so traumatic because I couldn’t hold him, and they kept trying to give him to me. 

Everything was a blur for a while. I woke up in the recovery room. I didn’t get to hold my baby for 2 hours after he was born just because I was so out of it. Then I got to hold him eventually. We were back in my room. I was there for a couple of days. Yeah. Recovering from that emotionally and physically was so hard. I didn’t prep for it. I didn’t expect it, and looking back, I was angry that it went the way it went. I feel like it didn’t have to. 

He ended up being 9lbs, 1oz. His head was in the 97th percentile. He had a massive head, and he was a big baby, but I do think things could have gone a lot differently. 

Meagan: Did he have any swelling on any part of his head that would have indicated things like asyncliticism or a bruise or anything on his head from pushing?

Ashley: No, but he had a cone head. He had a very– 

Meagan: Okay, so he was coning and getting caput. Okay. 

Ashley: That’s it, yeah. 

Meagan: Okay. I was just wondering if there was anything specific to a positional thing, but it might have just been that your cervix wasn’t fully progressed before you started pushing. 

Ashley: Yeah, I think that had a lot to do with it. When you think about it, I was admitted at 8:00 PM. He was born at 8:00 PM. It was 24 hours and I was on my back the whole time. I was not being moved. I was not being repositioned. Like I said, there was not a lot of staff around. I was ignored. I didn’t know any better. I didn’t know what I should or should not be doing. I didn’t know that I should be moving. I think that had a lot to do with it, a lack of moving around and I was just on my back. 

Meagan: Yeah. Yeah. 

So had him and did you immediately know you wanted a different experience or were you just such in shock with everything that you couldn’t even process that? 

Ashley: I knew I wanted a different experience. I remember being in my bed the day we brought my day home in the bassinet, and I remember being on Instagram just looking up C-section groups and support. That’s when VBAC came to mind. I was like, okay. I can have a VBAC. I can do it differently next time. 

We only wanted two kids, so I knew that was my chance. For my second pregnancy, I really had to dedicate myself to how my body would allow, but that was so important to me right away, to have a VBAC. 

Meagan: Yeah. Did you immediately find a lot of resources? 

Ashley: I did. I believe that’s when I started following The VBAC Link. I believe that’s when it happened. There were some other C-section mama groups and stuff that I followed. That was really helpful. I would read people’s comments and it brought me so much relief to know other people had experiences like mine and the way I was feeling was normal. That was super helpful. 

Meagan: Yeah. There’s something about having that community behind you, validating you, helping you feel like you’re not alone in this world going through this, you’re not alone in this world wanting something different. A lot of people will say, “Why can’t you just be grateful? Why are you trying to figure out a new pregnancy and birth when you’re not even pregnant? You just got this beautiful newborn.” It’s not that I don’t love my newborn, and I don’t want this time with my newborn, but I’m starting my journey now to have a different experience. It’s okay that I didn’t like my experience. I still love my baby. 

Ashley: Yeah. That was what I heard a lot. I heard, “At least your baby is here and they’re healthy.” I know that was just well-intentioned, but yeah. That was really traumatic. My baby is here. My baby was healthy, and it was wonderful that he was born happy and healthy, but I didn’t feel right about it. I felt like I didn’t have control. I felt like I didn’t have a choice. I felt really pressured, and I didn’t have the birth that I expected to have. That was just really, really difficult. 

Meagan: Yeah. You also went through a lot between the reaction, but then also with carpal tunnel. You were restricted to even move your fingers, then in your birth, you couldn’t even move your arms. It went heavier. My spinal also went higher with my second up into my lungs and into my arms. I remember feeling that panicked feeling just laying there. Everyone was doing their thing and I was like, “Oh, is this going to stop? How am I going to hold my baby?” and all of those feelings. 

Ashley: Yeah. 

Meagan: Well, okay. So you had this precious baby. You decided you wanted a different experience and how did that experience start? 

Ashley: Yeah. The second time around, I should say with my first that it took us a while to get pregnant. It took us 13 months. I was thinking– I don’t know why it took so long. We were really trying. I was thinking that maybe that would happen again. I was mentally preparing for that. We had been trying for a couple of months. 

We moved. Right when we started trying was when we moved another state to North Carolina. I needed to find a provider. After getting settled for a couple months and had been trying for a couple of months, I found a provider who had really great reviews. I thought, this is great. I got in with her. That was really just to first get checked up, and then second, to have a plan for if we can’t get pregnant in the next couple of months, what should we do? 

I was thinking about that one medication you can take that releases more eggs. I wanted to ask about that because almost 35 and I wanted to be on top of it. I met with her. She was really nice, but immediately, she didn’t read my chart. She didn’t know about my first birth. I had to tell her about it and give her that information. 

After I explained what happened, she basically said that it sounded like it was an anatomy thing for me. One, it was anatomy. I said right away, “I want a VBAC. This is my goal, absolutely.” After I told her my story, she said, “Well, that sounds like anatomy. When it’s that, you’re more likely to have a repeat C-section.” She was like, “I’ll let you try, but the odds are that you’re probably going to have a C-section.” 

I felt so defeated when I left that appointment. I kind of just accepted it and thought, okay. That’s probably what’s going to happen. She’s the expert. She’s got great reviews. She must know. 

I left that appointment and again, did some research, and I started seeing that it was not really true. You still can have a VBAC. What she was telling me was not true. I needed to find a different provider. That’s what that meant.

I just left it at that and waited. The next month, we got pregnant which was amazing. It only took us 5 months that time which I wasn’t expecting. It was super exciting. I did research for VBAC-friendly providers. I found the most wonderful doctor. Her practice is pretty much all women doctors and midwives. They’re all VBAC-supportive. 

When I met with my doctor, she said, “That’s what I prefer. 100%, I prefer to do a VBAC. I think it’s safer. I would much rather do that than a repeat C-section.” She was very gung-ho and it was great. As soon as we met, she already knew my chart. She read my previous birth. That was super refreshing. I didn’t have to tell her anything and she had a plan for me. She said, “If you want a VBAC, this is going to be the plan. We’re going to do everything we can to avoid any type of induction and intervention. That’s what we want to do.” 

About the carpal tunnel, it was likely to come back because it was about my body, and it was more my body and my anatomy, and how I handle swelling. The carpal tunnel was likely to happen again, but the problem was the first time around, I got induced because of carpal tunnel. If this comes back, what are we going to do? 

She started me on a baby aspirin right away. That was more because I ended up having preeclampsia after I gave birth. 

Meagan: Postpartum-eclampsia. 

Ashley: Yes, yep. That didn’t didn’t affect me that much, but yeah. She said, “We want to prevent that, so at 10 weeks, I want you taking baby aspirin.” She said, “If carpal tunnel comes back, I think we should do steroid shots and that should be able to help with the pain. It will help you manage the pain, so we can get to birth without induction or interventions.” Right there, I felt so much relief because that was the reason induction happened the first time around, but I also was a little angry because I was like, why didn’t my first midwife ever talk about that? It was never brought up. It was only PT. I don’t know why that way, but again if I would have had that, I think I could have had a much better pregnancy the first time around. 

Meagan: Yeah, and gone through a lot less pain. 

Ashley: More manageable. 

Yeah, so I left that appointment feeling really good. I found this wonderful provider, and things were going to go differently this time around. I asked about this time if my baby was bigger, and she said, “No, it’s not about weight. It’s not about how big your baby is. It’s about the way the head is positioned and the way the head is coming out. Big babies can be delivered vaginally.” She just said all of the right things. 

Meagan: Yes. Yes. When you were first telling me the story from the other provider who you met, I was shaking my head. With this one, I’m throwing my hands up like yes, yes, yes. 

Ashley: Yeah, that’s how I felt. She was wonderful. That was such a relief. It was everything for me. 

I left that and right away started prep for a VBAC. I already exercised lightly every day, but I started exercising. I made that a priority. I did my 2-mile walk every day. I was drinking the red raspberry leaf tea. I was meeting with the chiropractor. I met with a doula and interviewed a doula. I got that set up. 

Yeah, everything was pretty smooth. I had horrible morning sickness. This was worse this time around with my second pregnancy. I got horrible pregnancy acne. I had never had acne in my life, and then during my pregnancy, it was just horrible. 

That’s the worst. Everything else was smooth sailing. 

Meagan: Interesting. I wonder why. 

Ashley: I don’t know. I thought for sure I was having a girl because I never had it with my first pregnancy, so I was like, maybe I’m having a girl this time around. And my morning sickness was worse, so with my pregnancy being so different this time around, I thought it must be a girl, but it wasn’t. It was another boy. 

Meagan: It was?

Ashley: Yeah, yeah. 

Meagan: Maybe the testosterone. I sometimes get testosterone acne. Maybe it was the testosterone. Maybe this baby had extra testosterone creating acne or something. 

Ashley: Yep, perhaps. I was just so convinced that I did everything. I bought baby girl clothes and all of that.

Meagan: You were convinced. 

Ashley: Yeah, when I found out it was a boy, I was shocked. 

Everything was good though for the most part. There were no big issues once we got through the first trimester. 

What kind of happened was, I had never truly felt contractions before because with my first, I already had an epidural when I started to have contractions. I didn’t know what they would feel like. I was exactly 28 weeks. I went to the bathroom and there was mucus. 

I didn’t know. It was a lot. I ended up looking it up a lot and it looked like my mucus plug from what I saw. I had a doctor appointment the next day and after reading a bunch of things online, people didn’t seem to think it was a big deal. They grow back and sometimes that happens, so I wasn’t freaking out at all about that. 

I saw my doctor the next day, and she said that it was okay. It probably was just part of my mucus plug. She didn’t seem very concerned. 

The next week, I was leaving for St. Thomas on our last vacation as a family of three. It was very important to me. I wanted to go to the beach with my toddler and have uninterrupted time with him before my baby came. This was in March. My baby was coming at the end of May, so I was going to be 29 weeks. It’s a good time to travel I thought. We would get this great beach vacation with my toddler. 

I was cleared to travel. Everything was fine, and then the Monday when I was 28 weeks and 6 days, that night was horrible. I had so much pressure and I was tossing and turning all night. I just kept thinking I had to pee. I kept getting up, trying to go to the bathroom, and coming back to bed, but there was a lot of pressure. 

I didn’t think much of it, and I just knew I didn’t get good sleep. The next day was a Tuesday. All day long, I was having tightening on my stomach and pressure, but it wasn’t consistent. I feel like it was every 20 minutes to every 40 minutes. I would feel a little bit of pain. It wasn’t really bad though. I wouldn’t even call it pain. I would call it discomfort. 

I looked it up online. I was exactly 29 weeks at that point. I saw Braxton Hicks, and I was like, “That’s it. I’m just having Braxton Hicks.” It didn’t happen with my first, so I didn’t even know the difference. I was fine. I just went about my day. We were packing for vacation. We were leaving the next day. That night, that Tuesday night, we went to bed by 11:00 PM. We had to wake up at 5:00 AM for the airport. 

That night was excruciating. I could not sleep. I was in pain. I was having contractions every 10 or so minutes and tossing and turning. There was lots of pressure. I woke my husband up at 2:00 AM and we started talking about, “Should I go to the hospital?” I was like, “No, I think it’s Braxton Hicks. I think it will go away,” which is crazy now that I look back. It was really painful, and I was really trying to–

Meagan: Talk it down to Braxton Hicks, and you’re early. You don’t want to think about it. 

Ashley: Yeah, I was 29 weeks. There was no way. Again, it did not cross my mind that it was actually real contractions because I was so early. 

Yeah, then there was a huge degree of denial going on. There was gigantic denial because I just wanted that vacation so badly. Not that I wanted a vacation, but I wanted that time with my son on the beach. We had been talking about it, so I just wanted to make it happen. 

At 2:00 AM, I woke him up. We talked about it. I was just like, “Okay. I’m going to get a heating pad and put it on my belly. I’ll just lay here and hopefully that will kill the pain.” I took some Tylenol as well, and it didn’t do anything. 

By 4:00 AM, I was like, “I’m getting in that hot bathtub, and I’m just hoping that stops this.” I was in the bathtub, which again, should have been my sign that you should leave for the hospital if you have to get into the bathtub and use the heating pad. If all of this stuff was happening, I should have gone in. 

By 5:00 AM, I was up. We were loading the car, and we were off to the airport. The whole time I was walking into the airport, I was stopping myself in my tracks to have a contraction. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. 

Ashley: I was walking through the airport stopping, catching my breath, then I’d keep walking. It is absolutely wild that I got that far. It was a far walk to our gate. I was doing that a lot, and finally, we got to the gate. We were waiting to board. We were 5 minutes from boarding. People are actively boarding the plane. We are waiting to board last. I was like, “I’m just waiting to go to bathroom.” I go to the bathroom, and that’s when I passed a quarter-sized blood clot. I had light bleeding on top of that. 

I came back, and I looked at my husband and said, “I can’t get on that plane. I have to go to the hospital,” but I said, “You guys get on the plane, you and our son. Get on the airplane, and I will drive myself.” We had our car there. I was like, “I’m going to go to the hospital, and I’ll just rebook my flight for tomorrow. I’ll come out and meet you guys in St. Thomas.” 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Ashley: We debated that. My husband went back and forth for a couple of minutes. He was like, “I don’t think that’s a good idea.” I was like, “No, it’s fine. They’re going to check me out and release me. I’ll meet you guys tomorrow.” 

Thank God he was like, “No. Let’s not do that.” 

Meagan: Yeah, seriously. 

Ashley: I still just thought everything was fine. I really thought that. I wanted to go so badly. We ended up that they had to get all of our baggage off of the plane. The crew was really annoyed with us, but so be it. 

Meagan: Whatever. 

Ashley: Yeah. We held up the flight a little bit for sure, and then I couldn’t even at that point walk back to the car. We called a wheelchair. Someone came and wheeled me out to our car. 

The hospital was only 20 minutes from the airport which was great. We got to the valet and we couldn’t bring my son in, so while my husband talked to the front desk, I waited in the car with my son. They said that my son couldn’t come into triage, so me and my husband obviously couldn’t leave him in the car. I just walked myself into the hospital. I got seen by triage, and right away, they took me back to the room. 

I said I was having contractions. They were monitoring me, and they were like, “It doesn’t really look like contractions.” I was like, “Okay, well something is happening. I’m in a lot of pain.” They put the monitor on me and didn’t see anything. 

Then they admitted me to one of the rooms in triage. They really wanted to check me, but I was not having that. I did not want to be checked. They really wanted me to go home. They ended up giving me an ultrasound, and everything came back normal with baby which was great, but they were like, “We don’t understand why you’re in so much pain,” because they still weren’t seeing contractions. 

They ended up seeing them on the monitor, and the doctor said, “I have to check you.” At this point, it was 11:00 AM. 

Meagan: I have to check you. 

Ashley: Yeah. She said, “We have to. We don’t know what’s going on with your body. You’re in a lot of pain, so we won’t know unless we check you.” She was really kind about it. I didn’t feel pressured because I had already turned it down. They had asked me and asked me, but they were like, “We don’t know what’s happening. We have to know where you’re at.” 

She checked me and when she was done, she looked at me and said, “You’re at 3.5 centimeters.” I just burst into tears because at that point, I knew that it was not good. I was too far dilated for 29 weeks.

She said, “You’re not going to leave tonight. You’re not leaving until you deliver basically because you’re dilated. We have to keep you until your due date.” My due date was 11 weeks away.

That was the hardest part because I knew I wouldn’t see my toddler until I gave birth. That was horrible. That’s what I cared about at that point. Obviously, I cared that my baby was healthy, but it was excruciating to think about that. 

Meagan: Mhmm. 

Ashley: They admitted me right away. They took me to Labor and Delivery. I told my husband because he took my toddler home. I told him, “They’re keeping me.” He came back to the hospital. At that point, the plan was just to stall labor as much as possible. Let’s get as far to your due date as possible. 

They did the magnesium drip immediately. They gave me steroid shots to help strengthen my baby’s lungs. They gave me one oral medication. I can’t remember what it was called, but it was supposed to help stall labor. 

That was all started and up and running by 1:00 PM. By 4:00, my water broke. With all of the interventions, my water still broke at 4:00 PM, and baby was coming. 

My water broke by 4:30, and then I was pretty much having contractions from that point on. They were pretty consistent and pretty painful. 

At 3:00 AM, they really started to ramp up. They were 3-5 minutes apart. They were really painful. At that point, I asked for an epidural. I was really clear that I needed it to be the lightest possible epidural. I talked about my past experience and how awful it was. I was going to try to not do an epidural, but the contractions were so intense that I was like, “I don’t think I’m going to be able to push because I’m in so much pain. I can’t imagine pushing through these contractions.” 

I had a great anesthesiologist who came in. He listened to me. He was absolutely wonderful, and he knew his stuff. He gave me the lowest possible dose just so I would be able to take the edge off of pushing. I could feel everything. 

That was in place by 4:20. I was complete before they did the epidural. I said that I would sit really still but to please give me the epidural. They did. I pushed for a couple of times, and he was born at 5:00 AM. I got to hold him. 

My husband got to cut his umbilical cord, and then I got to hold him for 30 seconds, then they had to take him up to the NICU. 

Meagan: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. What a change of plans dramatically, so dramatically. So once baby came out and went to the NICU, what were the next steps for you and baby? You got your amazing VBAC, but also, if I could ask, did VBAC matter at that point? Were you happy that you got a VBAC but your gears changed again to my baby is in the NICU? Tell us about that quick shift of events and what it entailed mentally. 

Ashley: Yeah. That relief of getting my VBAC was still so important to me. I did not want to have a C-section. I still didn’t. That was still top on my mind. I was really scared when I started pushing. I kept having that fear that he was not coming out and they were going to make me have a C-section. 

The fact that he came out when he did, I felt relieved. That feeling of being able to actually give birth vaginally was such a great relief. It was amazing. 

Meagan: Yes. 

Ashley: But yes. I was very, very happy about that. The recovery was so much easier. He was born at 5:00 AM. By 8:00 AM, I was standing and using the bathroom. I was fine. I felt wonderful. Even with him going to the NICU, he was healthy. I knew that right away. 

That helped a ton, but I feel like the trauma was lessened because I got my VBAC. I can’t even imagine what hell it would have been for me if I had a C-section. 

Meagan: Good. 

Ashley: He was perfectly healthy, other than being a premature baby. They didn’t have any concerns at all at the beginning. He just needed oxygen basically, and he needed to be in the NICU under supervision and watched. He was 3,3 when he was born, so he was pretty tiny. 

Meagan: Teeny tiny. 

Ashley: Yeah. Even with that, it’s surprising how painful that was. I thought because he was a smaller baby, it would not be as painful, but it was very painful. It was still worth it and amazing. The pain was all worth it. 

Yeah. Getting that VBAC meant everything to me. It helped so much with the trauma of it all. It was one thing I got to control in a situation where I couldn’t. There was so much out of my control. 

Meagan: Yeah. It was the one thing that you had planned, prepped for, and saw happening when everything else– you should have been on the beach hanging out with your family. All of those things that you saw happening didn’t happen, so to have that one thing happen, I’m sure felt amazing. 

Ashley: Mhmm, yeah. For sure. On that note, every single doctor we saw and nurse who came into our room was like, “Thank God you didn’t get on that plane.” Everybody knew that story knew that we were supposed to literally be boarding a plane when I was actually at the hospital. I almost did. I almost did. It’s wild. Yeah. 

Meagan: It is wild. Was there any indicator why you were having the blood clot in the airport and why you were having the bleeding? 

Ashley: So not until I delivered my baby and then I delivered the placenta, and the neonatal surgeon took my placenta and looked at it, and at that point, he said it looked like placental abruption. He found a 2.5-inch blood clot in my placenta, so he thinks that’s why I went into preterm labor. 

After I learned that, I looked it up and realized that it can be deadly to my baby. It can be deadly to the mother as well. That helped with the trauma of it all to wrap my head around it and to think that if I had gone longer, something so drastic like that could have happened to myself or my baby. At that point, I was definitely thankful that I had a preterm labor because that’s what brought me a healthy baby.

Meagan: Yeah, wow. They didn’t even discover it until after. 

Ashley: Yeah. They had no idea. I don’t know if you typically see it in an ultrasound. I had a normal ultrasound at 20 weeks, and then they had one when I got triaged. They didn’t see anything, but the surgeon who looked at my placenta said that’s what it was. 

Meagan: Wow. 

Ashley: I’m so thankful. I really am. Being able to have that information helped me process it all and feel better about what happened. 

Meagan: I’m sure it offered some validation and took out a little bit of the why. Why did this happen? Why am I 11 weeks early? 

Ashley: Yeah. They sent the placenta off for, what’s the word? 

Meagan: Testing? 

Ashley: Yeah, they sent it off for an autopsy. It came back inconclusive and the doctor said that can happen with placenta abruption too so that was inconclusive, but again, the surgeon said that’s what he thought it was, so I’m going to accept that and be so thankful that my baby is here. When I think about what could have happened if I would have waited or if my pregnancy would have continued to progress, I really feel so lucky that it actually happened. That helped. 

Meagan: You know what? It just confirms to me how amazing our bodies are. When something happens outside of the norm, it responds. It’s like, “Okay. This is happening. Now my job is to get this baby out.” How incredible is that? It’s just crazy. 

Ashley: Yeah. With all of the interventions, he was coming. I just say that he’s a smart guy. He knew he needed to get out. He knew he needed to vacate, and he did. I’m just so happy for that. 

Meagan: Good. I’m so glad too. 

So then, having a NICU baby, how long did he stay in the NICU?

Ashley: They anticipated 11 weeks which would have been his due date. He ended up getting out at 8. He was there for 8 weeks. He was 37 weeks when he was released which was surprising. He did wonderfully, so that was just so great that he got out when he did a couple of weeks early. 

But yeah, 8 weeks in the NICU. It was a long time. 

Meagan: That’s a very, very long time. Do you have any tips for parents who may have a NICU baby in the future or anything like that? 

Ashley: Yeah. I think the biggest thing for me, the first couple of weeks, we went every single day, but we didn’t put a ton of pressure on ourselves to stay for too long. At that point, he really just needed his rest, and he didn’t need to be stimulated by us at all. They didn’t want him to be stimulated. They gave us a couple of hours which was great, but I really let go of the guilt of being there 24/7. There were parents I saw who were there 24/7, and I would compare myself and feel guilty that I wasn’t doing the same. I also had a toddler at home. 

That was a big thing. In the beginning, he didn’t really need me to be there. He needed his rest. That’s one thing. Give yourself a lot of grace, and do what you need to do. Your baby is getting taken care of under the best supervision. We had the best doctors and nurses. We didn’t need to feel guilty about that. 

The other thing I didn’t know until a couple of weeks before I was discharged is that we could request a lead nurse. That made a huge difference too because every day, we had a different nurse, a night nurse, a different daytime nurse, and different weekend nurses. We found out from another parent that if we liked a nurse, we could request a nurse to be with our baby every single shift they had. 

Meagan: That’s awesome. 

Ashley: Yeah. When we learned that, we got to request nurses that we loved, and it was night and day. They obviously only worked three shifts a week, both of the nurses we requested, but I knew the days that they worked, and I felt so much relief because I knew that they knew my baby, and I knew how they took care of my baby. 

Meagan: Yeah. That actually sounds like it would be so amazing because you do. You can be cycling through quite a few people in those 8 weeks, so to have that familiar face and that relationship that you can get established, I’m sure meant amazing things for you guys. 

Ashley: Mhmm, yeah. Absolutely. That’s a tip I wish I would have known sooner. I really think it helped him progress too. I think people had said that having that consistent provider would be really helpful for the baby, and I really think it was. 

So there’s that, but I think I read a lot of support groups. Again, I was in them and reading different comments. Again, I think just relying on other people. We had a friend whose baby was in the NICU, and she was wonderful. They were wonderful. Again, I think it’s just finding support, and everybody said it feels horrible in the moment, but it’s going to be a blip in this story. It’s just going to be a blip. It was so hard to actually believe that, but now, it’s like, yeah. It went by so quickly. Now he’s here. He’s perfect. Yeah. 

Meagan: It was all worth it. 

Ashley: It was all worth it, and I got my VBAC. It was not exactly how I wanted it, but I got it. 

Meagan: Yeah. You know, we’ve talked about it on this show where even when we get a VBAC, sometimes it’s not the ideal birth or the ideal scenario or situation or even experience that we wanted. In the end, sometimes people are like, “I actually don’t know if I would have chosen the VBAC,” but most of the time people are like, “It was definitely not what I expected, but I’m still happy with the outcome.” 

Ashley: Mhmm, absolutely. It made me want to have another baby. I’ve heard that on this podcast. In order to have another VBAC or to have that vaginal delivery, it was just wonderful. 

Meagan: Yeah, it’s funny because I had my VBAC, and it was a really long labor. I’m like, “Okay. I want to do that again, but faster.” 

Ashley: Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah. Maybe someday I’ll have another one. I think we’re done, but yes. Such great info that you’ve shared and such a beautiful story. I’m so glad that he is okay, and that you did not get on that plane and all is well. 

I was thinking about inflammation during pregnancy and how sometimes people can react differently. I wanted to learn more. I just looked it up really quickly about carpal tunnel affecting during pregnancy. I was shocked. This is quick research, so I don’t know the deep, deep depths of studies around this, but it says that it occurs when the median nerve in the wrist is compressed causing pain, numbness, and tingling in the hand, and it’s actually common during pregnancy. I didn’t think it was as common, but it says it affect about 60% of women during pregnancy. 

Ashley: That’s wild because I’ve only met a handful, not even a handful– I know other people. I was pregnant at the same time as a long of friends, and only two people that I know who I had talked to had experienced that. I had never met anybody else who said they had carpal tunnel. I’m sure to degrees, sure. Probably maybe mild carpal tunnel is 60% and maybe that severe is not as common. 

Meagan: Yeah. I’m not digging deep in because I wanted to see what it is affecting. It does say that the hormones can cause you to retain fluid, which can soften the ligaments and forms the roof of the tunnel and inflammation which also brought me down to Omega-3s. I don’t know if anyone ever talked to you about Omega-3s, but Omega-3s can help because fatty acids can reduce inflammation. I struggle with inflammation just from daily activities in my joints with working out and lifting and these things. I take Needed’s Omega-3’s. I thought that was interesting, too. I wonder if you’ve struggled with some form or severity of carpal tunnel and inflammation and things like that or things swelling around the joints causing pressure and pain if Omega-3’s can help. 

It’s worth asking your provider, right? 

Ashley: Yeah, for sure. 

Meagan: I know. It just seems so crazy and like such a high number. 

But obviously, it happens. There are things that you can do. Sometimes it just gets so severe like in your case that you just needed to have a baby to be done with that. 

Well, thank you so much again for sharing your stories with us today, and congrats on your VBAC. 

Ashley: Thank you so much. I am so appreciative of this podcast. Literally, everything I learned about what to avoid and what to do, I got it all from The VBAC Link, so I appreciate it so much. I really think it’s the driving force in me getting to have a VBAC. 

Meagan: Oh, that makes me so happy. Listen, Women of Strength, if you are still listening and you have recorded your story, listen to just how impactful your stories have been and the things that we share because each of these stories has nuggets of information and education along the way in addition to what we share within the podcast and the blog and on our social media. 

And here you are. You are just going to help someone else out there get the information and the motivation to go out and do it. Also, a reminder to not get on the plane if we are having symptoms like that. 

Ashley: Yeah. 

Meagan: Don’t even consider it, and don’t send your husband and your son. 

Ashley: Yes, thank God. 

Meagan: Okay, thank you so much. 

Ashley: Thank you. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Anni is a mom of two young girls living in Okinawa, Japan where her husband is stationed with the Marine Corps. In addition to her work as a non-profit grant writer, she volunteers with the Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition and hosts their podcast, Military Birth Talk. 

A big challenge for military parents is creating care plans for older children during birth. They often live far away from family or have recently moved and don’t have a village yet. Anni’s care plan was shaken up as her induction kept getting pushed back and conflicted with her family’s travels.

Though her plans changed, Anni was able to go into spontaneous labor and avoid the induction she didn’t really want! Her VBAC was powerful and all went smoothly. She was amazed at the difference in her recovery. 

Another fun part of Anni’s episode– she connected and met up with two other VBAC mamas living in Okinawa through our VBAC Link Facebook Community! We love hearing how TVL has helped you build virtual and in-person villages. 

Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello, everybody. You are listening to The VBAC Link, and I am with my friend, Anni, today sharing her stories. Anni is one of our military mamas. This is the final episode of the week of military episodes. So even though it is a little bit after Veteran’s Day, that’s okay. We are celebrating our military mamas today. 

Welcome to the show, Anni. 

Anni: Thank you so much. I’m so excited to be here this week. 

Meagan: Me too. I also can’t believe that you are here right now. We were just chatting before the podcast about time. You guys, it is 4:50 AM where she is at. I just can’t even believe it. You’re in Japan. 

Anni: Yeah. We live in Okinawa, so I’ve got to do stuff at weird times if I want to stay in touch with anybody in the States. It’s the military thing. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. Yes. She is in Japan. She is a mom of two young girls and like she said, she is living in Okinawa, Japan where her husband is stationed with the Marine Corps. Her personal values are community, joy, purpose, and creativity which all drive how she spends her time. In addition to her work as a non-profit grant writer, she also volunteers with the Military Birth Resource Network and hosts their podcast, Military Birth Talk. 

So mamas, if you are a military mom, and I’m sure a lot of people are flocking to these episodes this week, go listen to Military Birth Talk. Can you tell us a little bit more about Military Birth Talk? 

Anni: Yeah. So as you said, it’s a part of the non-profit Military Birth Resource Network and Postpartum Coalition, so MBRNPC for short. That’s an organization that provides resources for military families who are in the perinatal stage of life, so if you’ve just moved to a new duty station and you’re like, “Oh, I need a doula who’s covered by Tricare,” you can go to their website and reach out to one of their chapter leaders. They provide that kind of resource. Also, there is sort of an advocacy wing of the organization that works on policy changes impacting military families. 

This is our podcast, Military Birth Talk. Right now, we’re featuring mostly just military birth stories, but we’re in our third season and this season, we’re going to be adding some additional episodes like policy conversations, interviews with experts, and that kind of thing. 

So, as you said, if you’re a military-affiliated person listening and you want to hear some firsthand accounts of what it’s like to give birth within the military healthcare system, we’d love for you to tune in. 

Meagan: I love it. Thank you so much for doing that and explaining more. 

Anni: Yeah. 

Meagan: I just can’t wait for you to share your stories. I do have a Review of the Week, and then we’ll jump right in. 

Today’s review is by RiverW88. It says, “Gives me hope.” It says, “As a mama who had an unnecessary Cesarean and a poorly planned VBAC attempt that failed and resulted in a Cesarean, listening to these stories and information gives me hope for the future. Not only do I hope to have a third baby and a successful VBAC, but as a doula and an experienced birth photographer, I cannot wait to support other women through their VBAC journeys. I look forward to sending my clients to your website and podcast, and not too far in the future, take your VBAC doula course for myself. I love the way you present facts and inform while giving mamas a platform to share positive stories about a topic that is so scary for so many people thanks to the lack of education out there.” 

Oh my goodness, that is so true. There is such a lack of education out there and that is why we created the VBAC course that we did and the VBAC doula certification course. So, if you are a parent looking to up your game for VBAC, or if you are looking as a doula to learn more about supporting clients who are wanting a VBAC, definitely check us out at thevbaclink.com.

Okay, Anni. Let’s jump in. 

Anni: All right. So I am excited to share two birth stories. I’ll focus mostly on my VBAC since that’s why we are all here, but I’ll give a little bit of context about my first birth. It was pretty routine honestly. I had a breech baby, and there were no breech vaginal birth providers in my area at the time, so that’s the spark notes version. 

But to give a little bit more context, at the time, we were stationed in North Carolina in Newburn, North Carolina. There are a few providers out there, but not a ton. It’s sort of remote-ish, but because my husband is in the Marine Corps, we were a little bit limited. I actually was on Tricare Select at the time, so for those of you listening out there who aren’t familiar with military healthcare, as a spouse, you can be on Tricare Select which is where you get to choose your own provider. You don’t have to be seen by the military healthcare system. You pay a little bit extra. Or, you can be on Tricare Prime which is completely free, but you have to be seen within the military network. 

I was on Select at the time, so I was paying a little bit extra to choose my own provider which is kind of funny because there was really only one provider in that town anyway. This is one of the reasons why flash forward to a few years later, I wanted to be a part of the Military Birth Talk podcast because we often as military families get a lot of advice that doesn’t really fit our life. One of those pieces of advice is to pick your own provider. Do whatever you can to pick your own provider. Sometimes, that’s just not possible. That’s just not true for military families, right? It can be true for a number of reasons, but it’s very true for military families, so choosing my own provider was not really that possible given where we were located. 

That didn’t really come into play until the end when I found out that our baby was breech. Generally, the pregnancy was great. It was a really empowering, positive experience for me. I loved learning about birth. I really hadn’t been involved at all in the “birth world” until I became pregnant, then I totally immersed myself. 

I was super excited to give birth. I was super excited for all of the little quirky things like going into labor and my water breaking, seeing my mucus plug come out, and all of the birth nerd things that I had heard people talk about on all of the podcasts like this one that I had been listening to throughout my pregnancy. 

It was a pretty routine, positive pregnancy. About halfway through, we found out that we would be moving to Kansas at about 6 weeks postpartum. This is another one of those military things that people would say, “Oh, enjoy nesting and have a really quiet, peaceful postpartum.” I was like, “Okay, that goes out the window. Our house will be packed up by the time the baby is born,” because with the military, you have to send stuff super early. There was no nesting, no quiet postpartum period. There was a cross-country drive at 6 weeks postpartum. 

That was my first wake-up call around how birthing within the military community can be unique. Up until then, because I was on Tricare Select, I was like, “Oh, I’m not really a part of this military thing when it comes to my healthcare.” That started to shift around then. 

Then around 36 weeks, we got a scan and found out that the baby was breech. I was so upset. I had just spent the whole pregnancy looking forward to this experience that I now wasn’t going to have. It felt like I had been studying for a test or preparing for a final exam that now I wasn’t going to get to take. That’s obviously not true at all, but emotionally, that’s how it had felt. I had gotten so excited about the possibility of seeing what my body could do. 

It almost felt like I had a sports car and now I was going to be forced to drive it in automatic or something. It just felt like I wasn’t getting a chance to experience this thing that I had gotten so excited about. We were really upset, and my husband was too because he had gotten really excited about being able to support me in labor and all of those things. 

We decided not to do an ECV. I’m sure your listeners all know what that is. Partially, it was because I wasn’t a great candidate for it. My placenta was anterior, so that increased the possibility of an emergency outcome. I had a high volume of amniotic fluid, so that also decreases the chances of success, and the position that the baby was in, she was completely breech. She wasn’t transverse. She was totally in the wrong position. 

We were like, “I think we’re not great candidates. Let’s not do it.” We just booked the C-section. 

The C-section was fine. It wasn’t traumatic, but especially now having had my VBAC and being able to compare the two, it wasn’t a great day. I had surgery, anesthesia, and felt nauseous all day, I couldn’t really hold the baby until 9:00 that night. The silver lining of that, I would say, is that my husband got to spend the whole day holding the baby because I didn’t really feel well. I think that was really special for him after having 9 months of this abstract idea of a baby, and now he got to spend that day with her. I look back fondly on that aspect of it, but otherwise, it was surgery. 

The recovery was fine. I thought it was, at that point, again, now having had the VBAC and knowing the difference, not really that bad. It was a week and a few days of significant pain, and then after that, it was not too terrible. But again, just not the birth experience that I had hoped for. 

Then after that, I was not one of those people who was immediately gung-ho about having a VBAC. I think I was a little– I felt so disappointed that I didn’t really want to go there in my mind. I was like, “You know, it might just be easier to schedule another Cesarean and not worry about the emotional disappointment.” 

I didn’t want to do that either, so I just didn’t really want to think about birth at all for a while. 

Meagan: That’s a valid feeling and very normal. 

Anni: Yeah, so I took a big break mentally from birthy stuff. We did have a pregnancy in between our two daughters’ births that actually ended at around 19 weeks due to Trisomy 18 which is a genetic chromosomal abnormality that is incompatible with life, so that is its own whole story. I don’t like skipping over it because we appreciate his life, and it’s a part of our story. We love our baby boy that we didn’t get to spend enough time with. 

After that, I got pregnant again when we moved to Okinawa. When my first daughter was about a year old or a little bit less, we found out that we would be moving overseas to Okinawa, Japan. We arrived. We had the 19-week loss, and then a few months later, I got pregnant again with our second daughter who is now almost 9 months old. 

The pregnancy was so awesome for the most part. I had a little bit of anxiety around having just had the loss and feeling a little bit guarded. I would say it took a little bit of time to actually really be able to believe that she would be born. I think for a long time, I just didn’t expect it to work. 

I think that was compounded by my Cesarean experience. I had this feeling of, maybe my body just doesn’t work or something. That took a little while to get over, but for the most part, the pregnancy was great. Because we live overseas, we are not required to be seen on base, but the off-base options are very limited here, especially in Okinawa. 

The specific, weird thing about the community here is that because Okinawa is such a small island which many people don’t know that it is a small island. It’s not even off the coast of Japan. It’s floating in the middle of the ocean. 

Meagan: Really? I did not know that. 

Anni: Yes. If you look it up on the map, you’d see that it’s just a dot on the ocean. Because it’s so remote, the local vibe here is basically that if the American military is going to have so much presence on this tiny island, they should be caring for their own people which is reasonable. 

So getting seen out in town is not as easy as it is back in the States because the options are just very limited. The other thing is that really, the only other option that Americans have out here as far as being seen “out in town” which just means off base, is a birth clinic and they don’t accept VBAC patients there. 

Really, my only option, if I wanted to do the VBAC, was to be seen at the military hospital. 

So, my care there, I was being seen through Family Medicine. You can either be seen by OB or Family Med. I chose Family Med because I wanted to just continue to be seen by my regular PCM. I thought that that continuity of care was nice. 

Everything went really smoothly. I was sort of on the fence about the VBAC. I knew I wanted it, but again, I was emotionally guarded. Once we got into the second trimester and I started thinking more about birth, I started doing a little bit more digging thing, reading The VBAC Link Community posts a little bit more carefully. 

Actually, funny story, I posted something in that group. I can’t even remember what the question was. Oh, it was about induction actually because it looked likely that we would want to schedule an induction so that we could plan to have family fly out to be with us. They had to buy plane tickets and stuff. Even though that was not at all what I wanted to do from a VBAC perspective, it felt like what we would need to do as far as getting care for our toddler. 

I posted in that group to try to see if people wouldn’t mind sharing their positive VBAC induction stories. Two of the people who responded saw my picture and they were like, “That’s in Okinawa. We’re here too,” so we met up for coffee and I’m good friends with them now. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. 

Anni: Yeah, so shoutout to Sarah and Tatiana if you’re listening. That was really nice to feel like I had a little bit of community here in that way around this very specific topic. I started really committing to the idea of a VBAC. I also, when I say committing, my goal was that I really wanted to have a joyful birth, I didn’t want to suffer. I wanted it to be joyful. I wanted to feel present like I didn’t have the last time. 

My thinking about it was basically that those were my priorities. If it ends up being that having another Cesarean is what would get me those things, I would rather have that than lose the joy and the feeling of being present. I’m not willing to suffer just to get this outcome. 

That was my list in my head. I got a wonderful doula named Bridget who was totally on board with my priorities. She and I really aligned around our level of risk tolerance around VBAC because the hospital here on Okinawa, the Naval hospital, had a couple of specific things that they wanted for VBAC. They wanted me to come in right away as soon as I felt any contractions or if my water broke. They wanted me to come in right away, whereas my preference initially was to have labored at home. 

So that was one example of one of the things Bridget and I talked about around, okay. What’s our preference around how we handle this? Do we want to say, “No thanks. We’re going to labor at home for as long as we can”, or do we both feel more comfortable just getting to the space where you’re going to deliver and knowing that you’ll be there and they’ll be watching to make sure that everything’s fine? 

Where I shook out on that was that I’d actually rather just go to the hospital sooner. That was actually fine with me. It was really nice to have somebody to talk through that with. It was nice that we felt aligned in that way. She is really used to working with military families. She is a military spouse herself with two young boys, so that was really a really supportive relationship. 

My husband felt that way with her as well, and she is still a good friend. That was a really important part, I think, of my preparing for the VBAC. 

The hospital providers were super supportive which I was very surprised about. I didn’t receive any pushback. Anybody who I saw during the course of my pregnancy was totally in support. In fact, I had a TOLAC counseling which they require so they can tell you all of the risks and benefits and whatever. The provider who gave me the TOLAC counseling, I think assumed that I would be coming in blind, so she did her whole spiel. At the end, she was like, “What do you think? What do you think you might decide?” I was like, “Yeah, no. I’m definitely going for the VBAC.” She was like, “Okay, great. I think that’s a good choice.” 

I was surprised by that. I think people, myself included, expected military hospitals to be very antiquated or by the book or very risk averse, which they are, but in this case, it was really nice to see that they had caught on to the fact that in many cases, a VBAC is not actually more risky. 

Meagan: Risky. 

Anni: Yeah, exactly. That was really nice to feel like I wasn’t going to need to be going in with any kind of armor on. So fast forward to the birth, as I had mentioned, I had “wanted” to schedule an induction for logistical reasons. The way that the hospital here works because they are chronically understaffed as many military hospitals are, if you’re having an elective induction, so if it’s not medically necessary, they give you a date, then you call the morning of that date and they tell you what time to come in based on the staffing ratios. 

Our family who we had called to come for the birth that we had scheduled this whole thing around, arrived, and the next morning, we called as it was our scheduled induction day. I will say that the only family who could come was my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, so my husband’s sister and her husband. 

She’s a surgeon back in New York, so she only had a 6-day period that they could come. That was part of the reason why we wanted to schedule an induction. They got here. The next morning, we called the hospital, and they said, “Oh, we’re too busy right now. We can’t safely bring you in, so call back at 4:00.” 

We called back at 4:00, and they were like, “We’re still too busy. We’re sorry, but you have to call back tomorrow morning.” My doula had warned me that this was very common. She was like, “Expect maybe 12-24 hours,” but I was just in this manifesting headspace that everything was going to go great, so I was super disappointed. We went to sleep. We were like, “Oh, we were supposed to be at the hospital tonight.” 

We woke up in the morning, called the hospital, and again, they said, “We are still too busy. For the third time, we can’t safely bring you in, so you have to call back at 4:00.” I took a long walk by the ocean. We got lunch. We just killed time. I took my toddler to the playground. I’m like, “Okay, this is it.” 

We called back at 4:00 PM that day and they were like, “I’m so sorry. We’re still too busy.” This was the fourth time. By this time, there was actually a day between when our family arrived and when we started calling. By this time, there was no way they were still going to be here if we had to go for the induction, have what was inevitably going to be a long induction because I never labored with my first, spend the 24-48 hours at the hospital, and then come back, there was no way our family was still going to be here.

I was so stressed. They were like, “We know we’ve pushed you now four times. Why don’t you call back tonight at 8:00 or something? We think we’re going to get a discharge between now and then. We’ll see if you can come in at 10:00, and we’ll see if we can start the induction.” 

I was like, “You know what? Our schedule is already messed up at this point. It sounds like it’s already a crazy situation over there at the hospital. I don’t really want to go into that mess, and I don’t really want to start an induction at 10:00 at night.” 

I was like, “Can we just come in tomorrow first thing, at 5:00 in the morning?” By this point, it was going to be a Saturday. We were supposed to go in on a Thursday. It got pushed all day Thursday and all day Friday. I said, “Can we push it to the first thing on Saturday morning?” The charge nurse who I talked to said, “Yes, that’s fine.” 

We go to bed. We wake up in the morning, so happy that finally, today was the day. We say goodbye to our toddler. We get to the hospital at 5:30. It’s super quiet. Nobody was there. We bring the bags up. We unpack. I had affirmations that I had printed out, Christmas lights, music, essential oils, and all of those things. We start unloading the bag. 

The nurse comes in and gets me hooked up to monitors to do a non-stress test. We do that. I’m sitting there on the monitors for a half hour. Then she comes in and she says, “The NST looks good.” She starts getting an IV ready because one of their protocols is that they want VBAC patients to have two IVs actually. 

Meagan: Okay, what is the deal with the two IV thing? I’ve been hearing this. I apparently need to dig really far into it. Why two IVs? 

Anni: They said that one was for hydration. 

Meagan: Okay. Hydration, like for ORs?

Anni: Yeah, and the other is for medication, so if they need to hang a quick bag of something like Pitocin– I don’t even know. It’s so silly because I didn’t have anything. When I eventually did get the IVs, I didn’t have anything in either one. The second one was really hard to get in. They spent an hour and a half trying to get it in. I didn’t even have anything in the first one. I was like, “Nothing is in the first one. If you need to give me meds–” Whatever. 

Meagan: Stop the hydration and put the meds in, or maybe they need that extra port that they can put in. That’s interesting. 

Anni: Yeah, so she goes to put the IV in. A nurse comes in and goes, “Wait, don’t put that IV in.” I’m like, “Why?” They were like, “We don’t know. The provider wants to talk to you.” The provider comes back in and she was like, “I’m so sorry, but we didn’t realize that you were a VBAC. We weren’t tracking that. You got pushed, and we won’t induce you on a weekend because we only have one OB and we want to have two,” so we had to go home. They were like, “You have to go home, and you can’t come back until Monday.” 

I burst into tears. This poor OB was like, “You can totally yell at me.” I’m like, whatever. 

It was so ridiculous. We go home. We were like, “All right. Now, we don’t know what we will do for childcare.” Thank goodness, my sister lives in San Francisco. Her husband had a work trip that week that got canceled, so she was like, “I can actually just fly out and be there for you.” She has two kids, so that’s why she wasn’t going to come before, but now her husband was going to be home. She hopped on a plane right when that happened. 

We go home, and we were like, “Okay. We will be coming in on Monday.” We go to bed that night on Saturday, and I woke up at 2:00 AM with contractions in labor. 

Meagan: Oh yay! 

Anni: I could cry now thinking about it. It was the beginning of a day that was the culmination of everything I had wanted from a birth experience for the last 3.5 years. 

I had been having a little bit of prodromal labor that week, but it would be one contraction at 2:00 AM and then nothing else. 

I woke up at 2:00 AM. My husband was sleeping on the couch by this point in pregnancy because I had one of those massive pillows, and he was like, “I can’t. I don’t fit.” 

Meagan: I can’t compete with the pillow. 

Anni: Exactly. I was like, “I’m sorry, but I choose the pillow.” He was on the couch. I woke up at 2:00, and I was like, okay. I’m having a contraction. 15 minutes later, I had another one. I was like, “Okay, I had two, but 15 minutes apart is a long time.” But then, 15 minutes later on the dot, I had another one. Then it was every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours from 2:00-4:00 AM. My dogs were there. I was just really enjoying it, honestly. I was feeling emotional. Nothing was super uncomfortable yet, so it was just period cramps and that kind of a feeling. 

But I was like, “Okay.” We were supposed to take our in-laws to the airport that day because that was the day that they were leaving. I’m like, “Okay. I know how this works. I’ve heard a bajillion birth stories. I’ll wake up at 6:00. The house will get busy. The contractions will peter out. I’ll have the whole day to do whatever, then they’ll probably pick up tomorrow night after I put my toddler to bed.” 

So in my head, I’m like, that’s the day. That’s what’s going to happen. The plan was that I was going to drive my in-laws to the airport that morning because my husband was going to pick my sister up late Sunday night. That way, we could split the trips. I didn’t want to do the late-night run. 

6:00 in the morning rolls around. I wake up my husband and I’m like, “Hey, I’ve been having contractions for 2 hours, but no big deal. I’ll take Megan and Paul to the airport,” which is an hour away. “I’ll be back later.” He was like, “What are you talking about? You’re not going to take them. Nobody’s going to the airport an hour away if you’re having contractions. They can take a taxi. They’ll be fine.” I’m like, “No. They’re definitely going to stop when everybody gets up. That’s always what happens. 

He’s like, “No. I don’t care if nothing happens today. You’re not driving to the airport if you’re having contractions.” I was like, “Fine. That’s silly, but whatever.” 

Everyone wakes up. I’m still having contractions, but they were very short. They were 30 seconds long and very tolerable. There were a couple that I was like, “Okay, I want to get on hands and knees and hang out on my yoga ball.” But for the most part, they were super easy. 

8:00 rolls around. We called a taxi for my in-laws and we actually had a babysitter lined up for that day anyway. I can’t remember why, but we decided just to keep her basically and have an easier day. 

The babysitter arrived at 8:30 and my husband went out. Right as she arrived, my husband went with my toddler to go do something quickly, so I was alone with Brittany, our nanny. I had this one contraction and I was like, “I don’t want to talk to her.” We had just met her at that point. She was new to us, so I was like, “Small talk feels really hard right now. I can’t make small talk.” I was like, “Hmm. That’s kind of interesting.”

Meagan: That’s a sign. 

Anni: But in my head, it wasn’t. It was going to be a 48-hour experience. That was just in my head. Again, I didn’t labor at all with my first, so in my head, this was a first time birth. My body has not done this before. 

Once our toddler was with the babysitter, I went upstairs and I got back in bed with my dogs. I was just having contractions. I was snuggling with my dogs just trying to stay present. My husband came in and hung out with me for a little while. He said, “You know, if you’re still feeling good, I’m just going to run over to the commissary (the grocery store on base) and grab some essentials because we didn’t think we’d be here this weekend, and now we’re out of milk and eggs and whatever, so I’ll go grab some things, and I’ll be back in an hour.” 

I was like, “Great, no problem.” He left around 9:00. At 9:45, I was like, “I can’t do this alone anymore.” I feel crazy saying that because it was way too fast to be saying that, but I texted him saying, “I think I need you to come back.” 

He came back. He brought me some fruit salad because I hadn’t eaten anything yet that morning which I could barely get down. I was in labor for sure, but in my head, I still was like, “This is going to be such a long experience. Nothing is progressing yet.”

I got in the shower. That spaced things out for maybe one long gap between contractions, and then right after that, they started increasing. They were getting closer together, and they were more like 7 minutes apart, then 6 minutes apart. 

I was having to moan through them a little bit. We called Bridget, our doula, to be like, “Hey, what should we do?” I was able to talk to her with no problem in between contractions. I was fully present and lucid, so I was like, “Okay, this means I’m not in active labor because I’m totally present. I can have a conversation,” but then during the contractions, I would really need to put the phone down and moan. 

Meagan: Okay, I was going to say, but that was in between contractions. 

Anni: But in my head, again, I was so emotionally guarded around, “I don’t want to expect that this is going to happen. I want to expect the worst.” She was like, “Okay, yeah. They are 6 minutes apart. I would really recommend that you wait until it’s been at least 1 or 2 hours when the contractions have been that close together before you consider going in, but if you want to call the hospital and ask them what their preference is, you can do that.” 

I was just starting to feel really anxious about laboring in the car. I also just had this feeling that I just wanted to be there. I just wanted to be where we were going to be and feel settled, which surprised me. I thought I would want to stay at home for a long time, but it was the feeling when you have an afternoon flight. You don’t want to hang out at home before your flight. You just want to get to the airport. That was how I felt. I was surprised by that feeling. 

We called the hospital. We told them what was happenind, and they actually did say, “Yeah, why don’t you just come on in?” We told Bridget. I was a little nervous. I was like, “Ooh, I bet she’s going to think that this is a misstep. We are going in so early.” But I just was like, “That’s what I want to do.” 

We got in the car. We went over to the hospital and got checked in triage. I was a 1. I had never had a cervical check before ever because my last baby was breech and in this pregnancy, I hadn’t been checked yet. I was super, super tense, and the provider, the nurse, was like, “I can’t really get up there. Your cervix is really high and hard. I can’t really get a good feel, but you’re definitely a 1 or a 2.” 

So I was like, “Okay, not great.” She left and was gone for a while, I guess, to talk to the provider, and then when she came back in, my water broke, and there was meconium in the water. So I was like, “Okay. All of these things are not great. I’m at a 1. I’m a VBAC. My water is broken, and there is meconium. All of these things are going to make the providers feel urgency around getting this thing going.”

But I was like, “Ugh. I definitely don’t want to get an epidural if I’m only at a 1 because that’s a terrible idea, but I also really don’t want to get Pitocin if I don’t have an epidural.” I was really hoping that I could have a natural birth without any medication, but I also again, going back to my list of priorities, I was like, “I want the joy. I want to be present. I don’t want to suffer. If I can check all of those boxes and also experience an unmedicated birth, then that would be amazing, but I’m not willing to sacrifice any of those things.” 

So after my water broke, they brought me into the delivery room. I just started laboring. They came in maybe a half hour later and said, “We probably want to start some Pitocin.” I was like, “Let me wait on that. Just give me a minute to think about things,” which we can always do. Ask for more time if nothing is an emergency. 

Thank goodness I did that because in the half hour, I was thinking about it– not thank goodness that there was an emergency, but there was an emergency, and the only OB who was there that day got called away to do emergency surgery, so he became unavailable for the next several. The Pitocin was off the table for the time being, and so I just got to labor on my own. 

Bridget arrived, and she had me get into a whole bunch of funky positions. The baby was posterior which I knew because I was feeling this all in my back, and so she was having me get into all of these really uncomfortable, asynchronous positions with my legs in all kinds of weird places. It was super uncomfortable, but I knew that it was effective. 

I kept laboring. As I said, they had trouble getting the second IV in. That took a really long time even though there was nothing in the first one they had put in. I guess I also had two monitors on me. They were Bluetooth monitors, so one for me and one for the baby. I don’t remember that at all, but my doula said that they were messing with them the whole time because they kept moving. I don’t remember that. I think I was just more in labor land than I realized. 

But I had the two monitors. They finally got that second IV in. The anesthesiologist came to do it, and after he did the IV, he gave me the whole epidural spiel which they have to do for legal reasons which I wasn’t paying any attention to because I was just moaning and groaning and ignoring him. 

So he left. I kept laboring, and then around– we got to triage at noon and we got checked into our room around 1:00. Around 3:30, they came back in and asked about the Pitocin. I was like, “I need to get more information about this because I need to figure out what I’m going to do for pain management if we’re doing Pitocin.” 

Bridget was like, “Why don’t you just get checked again and see where you are?” I was a 7. So either I made a ton of progress in that 2 hours, or I wasn’t really a 1 when I got there, and my body was stressed and it clamped up, or the provider couldn’t get a good read. Whatever it was, in my head, I went from a 1 to a 7. 

Meagan: Massive change. 

Anni: Yes. I think I giggled. I was just so happy. So they were like, “Okay, well we don’t need to do any augmentation. You’re progressing just fine.” I was like, “Okay. We’re doing this. We’re just going to keep going.” Bridget recommended that I go to the bathroom because I hadn’t peed in a while. 

I went over to the toilet, emptied my bladder, then had a huge contraction and felt super like I needed to get off the toilet immediately. I hopped off and went back to the bed. A little bit of time passed, and then I started feeling like I had to throw up, but it wasn’t a nausea throw-up. It was like my abdomen was heaving kind of thing. 

I was like, “Am I pushing right now?” It was this involuntary feeling. I knew about the fetal ejection reflex, but in my head, I thought that was more of a sustained bearing down feeling and this was a more grunty thing. Everybody heard what I was doing, and the nurse who was phenomenal, her name is Cassie. She was such a godsend. She checked and she was like, “Yep, you have no cervix left. You’re good to go.” This was at 5:00. 

Meagan: 2 hours later. 

Anni: Yeah. I just couldn’t believe it. I still thought it was going to be hours and hours and hours because I was so guarded, but it wasn’t. There were about 15 minutes between when she checked me and when I really started pushing. I labored down a little bit. The providers lost the baby’s heartbeat at one point which is super common when they’re in the birth canal, but because this provider knew I was a VBAC, and he had experienced some things before and was very risk-averse, he wanted to do an internal fetal monitor. I was like, “You know what? Not ideal. I don’t love it, but that’s fine.” 

I wanted to maintain that calm environment in the room. I didn’t want people to start freaking out. I was like, “That’s fine. Do what you need to do.” They did the internal fetal monitor. I rolled over to my hip. I wasn’t having those grunting urges anymore, but I could feel the baby moving down on her own. I felt her head start to stretch me, then she sucked back in. It started to feel scary like, okay. There’s no way out at this point. I’m the only one who can do this. I’m going to feel all of this.

I gave a couple of really strong pushes. Up until then, I had been breathing and pushing because that’s what my pelvic floor therapist and I had talked about, and I had really practiced that. But the provider again, had nervousness about the heartbeat. The internal monitor wasn’t picking up what they wanted it to, so the nurse was like, “Okay. Let’s give this one really good push.” 

I gave one really good push. I felt her head come out, then shortly thereafter, her body. My husband said, “Oh my gosh, she’s here. You did it!” They put her right up on my chest, and it was just incredible. Looking back, now I say it was incredible. In the moment, I think I was completely shocked because it was so fast. I had a ton of adrenaline. I had the labor shakes, so my chin was chattering. My husband moved the baby down a little bit because he was like, “You’re going to knock her in the head.” 

It was just amazing. I felt so empowered. It took me a few hours to come down from feeling shocked, but 3 hours later, we were in our room with the baby, and I had showered already at that point, walked myself to the maternity room where we would spend the next day, and it was just so beautiful. I look back on that day all the time in my head. I relive that day all the time in my head. I would do it again in a heartbeat. It was so incredible, and it was an experience that I will draw strength from for the rest of my life. It was just amazing, yeah. 

Meagan: Oh my goodness. And being pushed, and pushed, and pushed, and having a plan, and then it changing, and having a plan, and it changing, I mean, it was meant to work out this way. 

Anni: Yeah, yeah. 

Meagan: I’m sure you can feel that now. Oh, it is just amazing. It just goes to show that sometimes first-time vaginal births don’t take 40 hours. They can go quickly if your cervix is ready and your body is ready and your baby is ready. I love that your doula was like, “All right, let’s get in these positions.” You talked about going from a 1 to a 7. You may very well could have been a 1, but positional changes and getting better application with the baby’s head to the cervix can make a big difference. 

Anni: Yeah. I will say I think one of the things that also made a huge difference was that I mentioned I had seen a pelvic floor physical therapist. I had started seeing her around 20 weeks because I thought I had appeased knees at one point. I was like, “I want to nip that in the bud right away.” I went to go see her, and we really worked a lot on relaxing my pelvic floor and how I would need to do that during labor.

I thought I was one of those people who was like, “I’m relaxed. I can relax my pelvic floor. That just means not clenching,” but it’s so much more intentional than that. 

Meagan: It is. 

Anni: Practicing actually really relaxing my pelvic floor through pregnancy was so helpful because I knew what I needed to do during a contraction to not tense up at all. I think that really helped things progress. Even with a posterior baby, usually that can take a really long time, but it was a really fast labor. I give my pelvic floor therapist at Sprout Physical Therapy if anybody is looking, she was wonderful. 

Meagan: I love that so much. I love that you pointed out that you did it before pregnancy. A lot of people, me included– I didn’t think of pelvic floor therapy before I had my baby. Why would I have pelvic floor therapy before I even had a vaginal birth? That’s just where my mind was, but it’s just so, so good. 

Now, I personally have seen a pelvic floor therapist, and I understand the value and the impact that they can make so much more. Like you said, they teach you how to connect and truly release and relax because we might think we are, but we are not. 

They can help avoid things like really severe tearing and that as well. 

Anni: I had no tearing. I had a first-degree tear. It was easy peasy. Yeah. 

Meagan: Yes, yes. I have heard that a lot of people who do pelvic floor therapy can reduce their chances of tearing based on what they know and how they connect to the pelvic floor. 

Anni: Yeah. Yeah. I’m just super grateful and so grateful for resources like this. I think storytelling is such a powerful tool and listening to all kinds of VBAC stories was really helpful, even the ones that didn’t go as planned because that’s always a possibility. I really wanted to be mentally strong against that. I didn’t want to be crushed and feel like I lost my hopes and dreams. I wanted to come out on the other side of what happened with some sense of acceptance, so hearing all of the stories was so helpful, and having the community here and having my VBAC friends here in Oki was amazing. 

Meagan: I absolutely adore The VBAC Link Community, and I love hearing that, not only did I meet people who were my friends online, but we connected in our own community because there are Women of Strength all over. You never know, if you reach out there, you will probably have someone down the street. There are thousands and thousands of people in there, so I highly suggest to go to The VBAC Link Community on Facebook. Answer the questions and dive in because there are also stories being shared there daily. 

Anni: Yeah. I felt so reassured. I think I got 40 responses when I asked for positive VBAC induction stories. There were so many responses, so I was like, “Okay. I can totally do this.” It made the pregnancy easier. Regardless of what the outcome was going to be, it alleviated the anxiety that I had about the induction. 

So even though it didn’t end up going that way, it definitely made a positive impact on my pregnancy. 

Meagan: Absolutely, and I know that VBAC groups can make a negative impact as well like it did for me. I was in the wrong VBAC supportive group that I thought was supportive and it just wasn’t. That is why we created this one. There are other amazing ones as well, but that’s why we created this one because we do not handle the B. S. We just do not tolerate it. It is a loving community and only a loving community. That is what it’s for. 

Anni: Yeah. I was also in the chat feature. There was a chat group for people who were giving birth in the same month. I was in the January group. That was an amazing group of people too. I got so familiar with those names and those stories. People were so supportive of every outcome. There were people there who got their VBACs. There were people who ended in unplanned Cesareans. There were people who at the last minute, decided that they wanted a Cesarean, and everybody was loving and supportive. It was just an awesome vibe. 

Meagan: It really is. Oh, that makes me so happy because these are exactly the goals that we had when we created these groups. Oh my goodness. Anni, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us today. Congratulations on your VBAC, and I am so, so happy for you. 

Anni: Thank you so much, Meagan. It was so awesome to be here. I love this podcast. Thank you for everything that you do, and thank you so much for having me on here today. 

Oh, do you know what? I had one more thing I wanted to share with Tricare, everybody. I’m a Tricare doula. I work with Tricare here in doula. Definitely talk to your Tricare rep if you’re out there listening to see because some of them do offer coverage for doulas. 

Anni: Yes. 

Meagan: I just wanted to let you know. 

Anni: Yes. They just announced a new set of regulations around that. Literally, new laws just came out around that so there are new details around that, but if you are on Tricare Select, you have the option to have your doula be covered by Tricare. Just a quick advocacy plug here, if you’re being seen at a military hospital, you cannot access that benefit which is a huge problem because Servicemembers have to give birth at military hospitals, so Servicemembers themselves cannot access this benefit which is a huge problem. 

That’s one of the things MBRNPC is trying to advocate to change coming up. So if you are listening out there and you have any access to any kind of advocacy channels, please get the word out that we need to fix that. 

Meagan: Yes. It does need to be fixed. Talking about hiring the doulas because it’s Select and you go outside, we do have to have referrals from that provider. We have to actually have a referral from that provider for the doula before we can start, and we cannot start before 20 weeks so just to let you know. 

Even though a lot of people hire doulas early on, Tricare does not allow us to be seen until that 20-week mark. So gear up, plan, know that at 20 weeks, you can start seeing a doula and learn more about it. Oh my gosh. Thank you again so dang much. 

Anni: Thanks, Meagan. 

Closing

Would you like to be a guest on the podcast? Tell us about your experience at thevbaclink.com/share. For more information on all things VBAC including online and in-person VBAC classes, The VBAC Link blog, and Meagan’s bio, head over to thevbaclink.com. Congratulations on starting your journey of learning and discovery with The VBAC Link.

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Nicole is a military spouse who had her VBAC in England. She shares what it was like to unexpectedly move overseas during pregnancy, how she navigated not receiving her household goods in time, and how she made the choice to deliver on base versus off. 

Nicole’s first birth was a Cesarean during the height of COVID. During pushing, she was required to pause, take a COVID test, and wait an hour for the results or risk being separated from her baby after birth. Labor had gone smoothly up until that point, and Nicole knew something had changed after the pause. Things felt different, progress stalled, and ultimately Nicole consented to the Cesarean. 

Her VBAC was a surprisingly wild precipitous birth with only 2 hours between her first contraction and pushing the baby out! Meagan and Nicole discuss the unique challenges of precipitous births and how important it is to hold space for every birth experience. 

Needed Website

How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents

Full Transcript under Episode Details 

Meagan: Hello. Welcome to The VBAC Link. Today is Veteran’s Day. If you are just joining us this month for the very first time, then welcome to your first specialized episode week. I don’t even know what to call it. What would you call this, Nicole? I don’t even know. 

Nicole: A one-of-a-kind situation. 

Meagan: Last month in October, we had Midwifery Week and now we have Veterans. Nicole is the wife of a Servicemember and she definitely and experience that I think a lot of military members and moms experience and people don’t think about it. I don’t think about that. When I was having my baby, it was like, Which hospital should I go to? There are 10-15 right around me. 

Then you’re like, “Oh, hey. I’m pregnant and now I’m moving overseas.” You know? I think it’s something that we just don’t think about. It’s fun to have it be Veteran’s Day and to have a Servicemember’s wife sharing your story today. We might even talk a little bit about navigating the military healthcare system and what choices you made. We learned a little bit about that before we started recording. 

We’ve got her amazing story today. Where are you right now?

Nicole: I’m in England right now. 

Meagan: You are in England, okay. And that’s where you had your baby. 

Nicole: Yes. 

Meagan: Awesome. So England mamas, definitely listen up for sure. All mamas, really. We do have a Review of the Week so I’m going to get into that then we’ll start with your first story. This is from Roxyrutt and it says, “Inspiring”. It says, “Listening to these podcasts has been truly inspiring and I have been on my own hopeful VBAC journey. Listening to other stories has been incredibly helpful in my mental preparation.” 

We were just talking about that before we started recording as well just how impactful these stories can be for anyone but especially during your VBAC journey. 

It says, “My due date is April 17th this month–” so this is obviously a little while ago. It says, “I’m hoping to have my own VBAC story to share. Thank you all for what you do.” Thank you so much, Roxyrutt, for sharing your review. 

As always, we love your reviews. You can email them to us at [email protected] or you can comment “Review” on your podcast. I think it’s on Apple Podcasts, Spotify– I don’t know if Google allows reviews. You might just have to do a rating. But wherever you listen to your podcasts, if you can leave a review, please do so. 

Okay, Nicole. Let’s get going on your stories. I seriously thank you so much for joining me today. 

Nicole: Oh, thank you so much for having me. Like we mentioned before we started recording, this podcast has been extremely inspirational to me and it really led me to having the VBAC of my dreams. 

Meagan: And you had a precipitous VBAC, right? Did you have a pretty precipitous VBAC if I’m remembering right? It was 2 hours or something?

Nicole: Yeah. It was so quick. 

Meagan: Okay. We are going to talk about that. Don’t let me forget about that in the end. It is something that we don’t talk about a lot. Most people think about birth being a long time. 

Nicole: Yeah. 

Meagan: Yeah. Precipitous birth can come out of left field and I want to talk about that. But first of course, every VBAC starts with a C-section so let’s hear about your first.

Nicole: Okay, yeah. So I had my first in June 2020 so literally right as the world was shutting down. Everybody was terrified with reason, right? I go in. I remember I had my baby shower planned and everything was planning and everything was canceled. I just felt depleted and I was scared. 

I remember watching videos on how to have a birth and what to do and all of the birthing videos and there was like, “Here’s a segment on if you have a C-section.” I was like, That will never be me. I don’t have to watch this because that will never happen. That is not in my cards. That is not in my birthing plan I typed up and had signed. That is not in my cards. 

So I decided with my doctor that I wanted to be induced and I said at 40 weeks I had done my time. Get this baby out of me. I had committed to 40 weeks because she kept saying, “Well, we can do it at 38 weeks if you’re comfortable or 39 weeks.” I was like, “Nope. I will do it until 40 weeks. I’ve done my time. At this point, this baby is evicted.” 

On June 20th, I went in for my induction. Everything went smoothly. I was progressing but not as fast as they would like so we started Pitocin. That went well. I was doing really well and all of a sudden they were like, “I think we need to break your water.” I had heard horror stories about your water breaking and it’s super painful and you’re miserable after it. So I was like, “Well, let’s get the epidural because why would I put myself through that if they have the option to make this smooth and comfortable? Why would I sit there and not be comfortable during this?” 

So I got the epidural and I just laid there. I laid in bed for a really long time then at about 3:00 in the morning, I got the urge to push. I let the nurses know. They checked. They said I was at 10 centimeters. Everything was good to go. They came in at about 3:10 and I started pushing. I pushed until about 6:00 AM. At that point, at about 5:00 AM, I started getting really hot. 

I noticed that they had turned the temperature in the room up obviously for baby. I started getting really overwhelmed and really hot. I started to throw up. My doctor turned down the temperature. She was like, “Let’s turn down the temperature. I feel like you’re just getting hot.” I was like, “I’m just hot. I just don’t feel so good. I’m just hot.” 

They turned the temperature down then a new NICU nurse came in and she turned it up. I was watching her turn it up and I was just so uncomfortable. I started throwing up again and they were like, “Well, we need to pause because everything you’re doing is an epidural symptom but it’s also a symptom of COVID so we’re going to stop you because we have to test you. You can either continue to push–”

Meagan: We have to test you.

Nicole: Yeah. I had gotten tested before I went in and then during my labor 3 hours in of pushing, they literally stopped me and said, “We need to do a COVID test.” I did a COVID test and it was crazy. You see all of these doctors in scrubs and masks and then all of a sudden they come in in these inflatable suits and everybody has these– which is more terrifying. I’m already scared. 

Meagan: Yeah, talk about invading your space. 

Nicole: Yeah, then you’re telling me that I have an hour until this test comes back. I can either continue to push but if I push and have my baby, you’re immediately going to take her away until my results come back or I can pause, not push for the hour and just let my body do it naturally and then resume pushing if my test comes back negative and I can continue to have skin on skin and the one-on-one time with my baby. 

Meagan: Hashtag, eye roll. 

Nicole: Yeah. So during that time, I was pushing well up until the COVID test. My baby was descending correctly. I stopped. I waited an hour and something shifted to where she then twisted a little bit and she– once my test came back negative and I was able to push again– was getting stuck on my pelvic bone and I could not get her out. They were tying blankets together and my husband would hold one end of the blanket and I would push and pull the end of the blanket as hard as I could to try and get her down. 

I was doing everything to push this baby out. Nothing was working. I started to develop preeclampsia so that was red flag number one. Then my baby’s heart rate started to drop in between each contraction which I guess means that it could be around the neck and it’s more concerning if it’s between contractions versus during the contraction. 

So after her heart rate started dropping and continuously dropped, they decided to call it an emergency C-section. 

I just remember feeling devastated. I remember shouting– not shouting, but crying to my husband, “I don’t want this. I don’t want a C-section.” My doctor was like, “I have to hear it from you that you are okay to have the C-section.” I was like, “I mean, I guess if that’s the only way to get this baby out but I don’t want it.” 

I remember feeling the pain from my C-section and feeling so depleted. I pushed from 3:00 to 6:00 then I stopped for an hour. We resumed at 7:00. We pushed from 7:00 to 9:00 and then they called the emergency C-section and I had her at 9:36. It was a lot and I was pushing hard. 

I just remember getting back to the room, because my mother-in-law was there, and saying, “I haven’t held her yet.” I didn’t want anybody to hold the baby without me holding her first. I had heard stories of people who were like, “Everybody in my family got to hold the baby before I held my baby.” I just remember crying and I cried for weeks. I just felt like my body gave up on me. 

My recovery was terrible and that’s what my doctor kept saying. She was like, “You have both recoveries. You pushed for so long that you’re recovering from pushing and then you’re also recovering from your C-section.” Then because I pushed so hard and I was trying so hard, I had tore all of the right side abs so I couldn’t even move my legs to get in and out of bed for 4 weeks because my whole ab muscles were just torn. 

I had to go see therapy for that and I remember trying to drive me and this infant to therapy sessions and I was just in pain and then the drive home– it was so hard. I just felt like I was really bonding with my baby, but I felt like I was so disconnected with myself. I just couldn’t do it. I had to have therapy because I went into postpartum depression. It was the hardest moment of my life because I really just felt like everybody was like, “Oh, it’s so beautiful though. Your body did its job and it birthed this healthy baby.” I just wanted to scream every time somebody said that because I was like, “But it didn’t. I pushed for hours, literally hours, and it didn’t do its job. I had to have my baby taken out of me.” 

Meagan: You didn’t feel that way.

Nicole: Uh-huh. Yeah. People would be like, “Well, aren’t you glad that you didn’t have vaginal tearing?” I was like, “No, but I had hip to hip tearing and not just through the skin. It was muscles and layers.” I felt like everybody was trying to comfort me and it just felt like I wanted to scream at the top of my lungs because I didn’t feel like anybody was understanding what mentally I was going through. 

Meagan: Yeah. I think that happens so often in the provider world but also just in our family and friends’ world. We get thrown the, “Aren’t you just happy you have a healthy baby?” It’s like, “Yeah, duh.” But then also that thing, “Well, aren’t you glad that didn’t happen to your vagina? Aren’t you glad you don’t have to deal with incontinence?” Or similar things where in people’s minds, I don’t think they realize that it’s causing harm or that there are ill feelings at all. They are just saying these things, but it’s like, “I don’t feel like I birthed my baby and I don’t feel good about it and I’m dealing with a lot of trauma physically to my body, not just even emotionally but physically to my body. No, I’m not feeling great right now and it’s okay that I don’t feel great. I understand that you’re just trying to help and validate me maybe, I don’t know.” Maybe that’s what people are doing but it doesn’t always feel good. 

Nicole: Yeah, people kept telling me to be mad at my provider. I was like, “I hear you. But at the end of the day, she’s new to COVID just like we are. She’s going into this trying to navigate it.” I think she did and I think she made the best calls, but everybody was like, “Why are you mad at yourself? Be mad at this person.” I was like, it wasn’t her fault necessarily. She didn’t know what was happening. COVID was so new and it was just blowing up in Utah. It was just this big thing and it seemed like nobody was listening to the fact that I was upset with my body and how my body handled this. Everybody was just like, “Well, it’s a healthy baby. Blame this person or that person. It’s COVID.” 

I was like, “But what about me? You’re not listening to me.” That was so tough. I felt like I was screaming it and people were trying to silence it without purposely trying to silence it. 

Meagan: Right. Okay, so I have some questions for you. So when they were offering you sheets and it sounds like you were maybe playing some tug-of-war. What I call it in my doula mind is tug-of-war where you are pulling and tugging and all of those things. Obviously, they were really trying to help this baby get out vaginally and things like that. Did they offer you changing of positions even though you had that epidural? Were they like, “Hey, let’s try to get you on your side or get you on your hands and knees?” You said you kind of felt your C-section a little bit, right? Is that what you said? So it maybe wasn’t as deep of an epidural so maybe you could have done hands and knees or something? Did they ever offer anything like that?

Nicole: They didn’t. They did try the vacuum three times but it immediately would just pop right off of her head because she was shifted. 

Meagan: Asynclitic a little bit, maybe?

Nicole: Yeah, so they said that after three times it was unsafe at that point and it was going to have the same results. Nothing was going to happen. 

I didn’t want to do the vacuum, but once we were at that position, I was like, “Let’s just try it.” I agreed to three times and then we were done. Keep it safe. That’s when we started doing the tug-of-war and we did that for a long time. My husband was holding it and he was like, “The first time, you almost knocked me down because I wasn’t expecting you.” I was pulling so hard. I just wanted this baby out. 

Yeah, they didn’t move me in any positions. I was just on my back. Now that I know better, I wish I would have tried. 

Meagan: But again, you didn’t know what you didn’t know. For listeners, if you are in a situation where your baby might be tilted to the side asynclitic or transverse and maybe you have done tug-of-war and things like this, and even then, sometimes it doesn’t work. For some reason, the baby is where they are, but a little bit of a tilt to the side especially if there is one side where they feel the baby’s head or try to get on hands and knees to change that pelvic dynamic can help. But I love that they were like, “Let’s do tug-of-war. Let’s do these things.” 

I love that providers are still encouraging other things in other ways. It sounds like they really did try and avoid a Cesarean by doing a vacuum and doing the tug-of-war. That is super awesome. 

I was also wondering if you have any tips for moms who have maybe pushed for a really long time like you did and had essentially have vaginal pelvic floor trauma and also gone down the Cesarean route. Is there anything you would suggest to moms? Or even for moms who maybe had a C-section and had this possibly happen. Yeah, do you have any tips that you would suggest to help with healing both physically and mentally?

Nicole: Yeah. One of the biggest things that we did which was incredibly helpful– I’ll give you a funny story after– but one of the biggest things that we did was my husband would get out of bed. We breastfed. He would hand me baby. I would breastfeed her and burp her and then he would get out of bed, change her, and put her back down. 

That was incredibly helpful because all I had to do was go from laying to sitting. I couldn’t pick my legs up to move them out of the bed without it being excruciating, so having him just help me sit up and hold baby made a huge difference. 

Having that support person there to help do the heavy lifting technically to get in and out of bed was next-level game changer. It helped me. I got to sleep more because he changed the diaper. We took turns then he would sleep during feedings. We were really changing. 

I do remember going to the pediatrician and my husband talking to the pediatrician and I was like, “Wrong person to ask.” He was like, “She keeps waking in the middle of the night and rocking holding this invisible baby and bouncing it.” It was because I would forget that I gave the baby back to my husband. 

Meagan: Yeah, because you’re so tired. 

Nicole: I’m so tired and he would be like, “It’s freaking me out.” I picked up my little Yorkie and I was rocking her. My husband was like, “That’s the dog.” I thought I had fell asleep and the baby was next to me so I picked up the dog. I remember the husband talking to the pediatrician and I was like, “That is the wrong doctor. He knows nothing about my mental state,” and him being like, “It’s terrifying,” but it really did help me. It might have scared him, but it just was so helpful and I just felt like I didn’t have to worry about dropping the baby walking in and out of bed. It helped speed up my recovery because I wasn’t constantly getting in and out at all hours of the night. 

Meagan: Yeah, that is so impactful. I love that you pointed that out. I know that some postpartum doulas do that too but if your partner is able to help you in that way, I also think it’s really great because that helps them bond with the baby too. I mean, they might not be feeding the baby but they are changing and carrying and soothing the baby back to sleep as well. I love that. I love that you did that. How long did you do that until you were feeling better and getting in and out of bed was feasible?

Nicole: It took me about 3 weeks until I felt comfortable and confident. That was another thing. I could feel comfortable but wasn’t confident to get in and out of bed without worrying about a sharp pain or something glitching or stumbling. 

Meagan: Mhmm. I’m so proud of you guys for being a team and making sure that you took care of that. 

Nicole: We’ll keep him. 

Meagan: You needed to take care of yourself and I love that you were like, “This is what we need. This is what we need to do.”

Awesome. Well, before we get into your next story which is amazing, we’re going to take a quick moment and listen to me, I guess, about our sponsor. 

Okay, and we’re back. Let’s get onto this VBAC story. 

Nicole: So being military, we had decided my daughter was so great and so fun at about 8 months or 9 months and we were like, “Let’s do this again. Let’s have another one. We want them close in age. Let’s try again.” 

So she turned 1 in June. In May, we decided to go on a long weekend because my husband had just graduated college. He’s military and was going to school which is a whole other added pressure. 

Meagan: That’s a lot. 

Nicole: Yeah. We flew our mother-in-law out. She stayed with our baby for Memorial Day Weekend and him and I went to Tahoe for the weekend. 

We decided starting in May that we were going to start trying again. We were like, on May 1st, we’re going to start trying for a baby. 

We get back from Tahoe on June 1st. I think it was June 1st. It was right at the end of May and the beginning of June. His coworkers were like, “Guess what? You have orders to RAF Lakenheath in England.” My husband was like, “No, I don’t. You’re kidding. I don’t. That’s a joke.”

He called me and he was like, “I have bad news.” We had just dropped my car off at the dealership that morning so I was like, “Oh no, what we thought was a minor issue was huge.” He was like, “We have orders to England.” 

I was like, “That’s not terrible news. That’s the best news I’ve heard all month.” He was like, “No, that’s terrible,” because he was planning on getting out of the military. 

Meagan: Oh no. 

Nicole: We had 2 weeks to decide if he was going to stay in and take these orders or if he was going to get out. We spent 2 weeks going back and forth if this was the best option for our family and if this what we wanted. What could we do over there? We decided that we would go overseas if we decided to wait on having a baby. We cut it off. No more babies at the beginning of June. 

We were like, “We’re done. We’re going to have our one. Towards the end of our 4 years is when we are going to start trying for our second. That way, we can get back here and have our baby back in the States.” We were like, “We’ll travel with our one child because it’s easier to travel with one than two. We’ll travel with one kid. We’ll do our 4 years there and when we come back, we’ll have our next baby.” It wasn’t ideal because we wanted them close in age, but at least we were traveling and eventually, we would have our second. 

He took the orders on June 2nd. I was prepping for my daughter’s first birthday. We were having a pool party. I was like, okay. Her birthday’s on June 20th. It is June 16th. I wonder when I’m going to get my period because I don’t want to be on my period and swimming. 

Meagan: During the pool party, yeah. 

Nicole: I looked at my app and I was 7 days late. I was like, What? I don’t think that’s right, but let’s just take a test. I took a test and I was pregnant. 

So, the joke was on us. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Nicole: Yes. We found out in June that we were having our second and we were due to be in England in November. So at the end of the month in November was our DEROS date or the day that we were supposed to be in England and he was supposed to be signed onto the base. 

We decided that we would just pack up and do this all while I was pregnant. We moved over there on November 15th. Once I got here, I was like, Well, what do I do now? I am halfway through my pregnancy. I have nothing because COVID again, had stopped all of our furniture stuff because the ports were closed and that whole issue of everything being shut down. The world was still closed so we were like, “What do we do?” 

We had sent our stuff at the beginning of October to arrive in England and they were like, “Well, you’re not expecting anything.” We had bought all of our baby stuff before because we were like, “Well, we’ll just buy it here and ship it over there, and then we won’t have to worry about trying to buy it over there.” There are different sizes of cribs there, and the bedding size is different. I don’t want people to buy us sheets then all of a sudden it’s UK sizes and it doesn’t fit and it’s unsafe for baby. 

It was a big thing. We bought all of our stuff. I was ready to have it. Then we got here and they were like, “It looks like you’re not going to get any of your household goods until April.”

Meagan: November to April?

Nicole: October to April because we shipped in October. 

Meagan: Oh my gosh. 

Nicole: Uh-huh. Yeah. We were living in temporary furniture that was terrible. We had to go out and buy blow-up mattresses because those were more comfortable than the beds that they gave us. It was wild. 

Then I’m trying to find a doctor. I’m trying to find a provider. I don’t know what I’m doing. I’ve called all of the birthing doulas because of the podcast that I had been religiously listening to. I was like, “I know what a doula is. That’s what I need.” They were all booked up because by the time we got here in November and I got the chance to interview them, they were all booked up for the month of February when my baby was due.

So now I’m sitting here, “Well, what do I do? Do I have the baby on base? Do I have the baby off base?” I don’t know. I don’t know anything about where we’re living. I don’t know anything about the hospitals. I don’t know anything. I’m just guessing off of people’s posts on Facebook, but they are so hit-and-miss. Somebody is going to post a really great story, then all of a sudden, somebody makes a post of a traumatizing story which scares you. It’s like, was the good story one in a million, or was the traumatizing story one in a million? I was just navigating this. 

I started going to my doctor’s appointments on base because I knew that Tricare covered the OB/GYN. I was trying to navigate how it would cover overseas. I had to make a lot of phone calls and all of that fun stuff. I was like, “Well, I’ll just start on base and see if I need to transfer off base.” 

On base was okay. It’s way different seeing a military doctor than it is seeing a provider who chooses this field and who wants this field. All of my prenatal care was okay. There were a few things that I wasn’t a fan of and if we weren’t talking about it, I could tell you what is the strep B test, right? 

Meagan: Group B strep?

Nicole: Mhmm. They test you. They swab you to see if you have a skin infection to see if you need to be on antibiotics. In the states, my doctor performed that on me. Here, they gave me a test tube and told me I had 5 minutes to complete it. I was like, “What? I can’t even see down there let alone swab myself.” I just remember crying in the thing and begging people to do it and they were like, “We don’t do it. You have to perform it on yourself.” My husband was home watching our toddler, so I had no support with me. It was definitely different. 

I looked at the hospitals off base and I was really unsure with the way that I had them. You would give birth in a birthing suite with your husband, then they would send him home and move you to this big room with other moms who had their babies. I was really navigating, what is the best fit for me and how am I going to have this baby and my VBAC? I want this VBAC. Who is going to advocate for me? I don’t have a doula. I’m doing this by myself. My husband only knows so much. He doesn’t understand it all, so he is only retaining half of what I’m saying. 

I made it to 40 weeks. I was like, “Get this baby out of here.” My mother-in-law was here to watch my daughter. That’s another thing. You have to find childcare for your toddler because you don’t have family around to watch your baby. We were so new here. We didn’t have friends here to watch our baby. My mother-in-law luckily came out and made it for the birth. She watched my daughter. I decided that since she was here, and I needed to get this baby out before she left so I had childcare, I would do a membrane sweep because I was 40 weeks and I think I was 2 days at that point. 

I did a membrane sweep. That was unsuccessful at 40 weeks and 2 days. I did a second one. That was very successful. We had my membrane sweep in the morning. I remember just doing lunges and squats all day long. We took my daughter to a forest. She just ran, and I did lunges behind her. There are videos of my husband following my daughter around, and I’m in the background just doing lunges and doing anything to keep active, to keep this baby going. 

I went to bed that night on February 23rd. I went to bed at about 9:00 PM. I woke up at 2:00 AM. It was about 2:30 when I woke up. I felt this really sharp pain in my stomach. I thought he had kicked my bladder, so I stood up on the bed. It was like a movie. You heard the gush, and then all of a sudden, water was just trickling down my legs. I was like, “Well, I still feel like I have to pee, so that was definitely my water breaking not me having to go to the bathroom and him kicking my bladder,” which signaled me having to go to the bathroom. 

My husband had just come to bed at about 2:00 AM. He had only been asleep for about 30 minutes. I was like, “Hey, no rush. This is going to take hours.” Again, nobody thinks that labor happens fast. I woke him up. I was like, “No rush. I just need you to go downstairs and get my military ID,” because at this point, I decided to have him on base. I was like, “I just need you to get my military ID because they are going to ask for that information in labor and delivery. Let them know that my water broke and that we would be in in a few hours. No rush. I’m going to take a shower. I’m going to go back to sleep. I’m just going to sleep this off. We will wake up in the morning, say goodbye to Naomi, and then go to the hospital.” 

Again, I had told my daughter that I would see her in the morning, and then I left the room that night saying, “Why did I say that? There’s no guarantee.” I had been saying for weeks, “I hope you sleep good,” and that’s it. Then of course, the one time that I accidentally said, “I’ll see you in the morning,” I wasn’t seeing her in the morning. 

He calls Labor and Delivery and they were like, “Well, because of her past, we want her in now.” I was like, “No. No. I don’t want to labor in a hospital. I want to labor as long as I can at home. I want to do this by myself. I want to be comfortable. I don’t want people to tell me what I should be doing then it going against what I want to do. I really want to do this by myself.” 

He’s arguing with Labor and Delivery. He was like, “Well, let me talk to my wife, and I will call you back.” I was like, “I’m going to get in the shower real quick and wash myself off because my water just broke.” 

Meagan: Had you started contracting at this point or just trickling? 

Nicole: Very minimal. It was every 5 minutes. It was very minimal, nothing crazy. I could totally go clean my car at this point. I was walking on water. My water broke. I’m great. I feel good. I feel nothing. 

I’m in the shower. All I did was put shampoo in my hair. I didn’t even get it rinsed out, and all of a sudden, my contractions went from 0 to 100. I could not breathe. I could not talk through them. I could not even do anything. I felt like my mind was so focused on the pain. My husband was trying to ask me questions, and I couldn’t even register what he was saying through each contraction. 

I told him, “Call them back because we are on our way now. I need to get out of the shower. I need you to throw conditioner in my hair while I have this next contraction. I need to rinse it out, then we need to go.” 

He’s trying to talk to them and put conditioner in my hair. I’m having a contraction. I put my pants on, and as I’m pulling them up, another contraction hit. Then they started going from having a contraction for a minute and a half to a break for 30 seconds, and then immediately back into another contraction for a minute and a half. 

I was like, “What is happening?” I never felt this with my daughter. I had the epidural. Things went so smoothly and so slowly that it was cake. This was the next level. I waddled into the car. I remember sitting in the front seat and saying, “I can’t do this.” I climbed into my toddler’s car seat because I had the infant car seat up, and I couldn’t fit in between the two car seats, so I had to sit with my knees in my toddler’s car seat. I was holding onto the back headrest for support and just standing there. 

I was on my knees, chest against the back of her car seat, and I’m just holding onto this headrest with every contraction. I’d have three in a row. I’d have one for a minute and thirty, a break for 30 seconds, a minute and thirty, a break for 30 seconds, a minute and thirty, then I’d have a two-minute break, and then they would kick back up again. 

My husband was just flying. The roads were closed on our normal fastway to base. We lived 30 minutes away, so it was an extra 15 minutes to get to base. He was flying at 2:50 in the morning at this point. I’m sorry, it was 3:50 in the morning at this point. We get to the hospital at 4:05. I am hugging a tree outside because my husband couldn’t figure out how to open the wheelchair. Poor guy, he was trying so hard to help me. 

Meagan: I’m sure. It was a frantic moment. Yeah. 

Nicole: Yeah. He couldn’t figure out how to open it. He had to go to the ER and get somebody in the ER to help him. They were wheeling me up, and I remember yelling at them because they kept saying, “We’ll have to do triage and see if you’re in active labor before we can bring your husband back.” I remember telling this poor ER nurse, “You’d better not split my husband and I up. I am not doing triage. We are going into a room. We are having this baby.” She was like, “Ma’am, I think we’re just going to put you in a room. I don’t think we are going to need triage.” 

I get into the room. I am continuously having contractions. They tried to stop me to do a COVID test. I death-glared this guy because he wanted to do a COVID test on me. I was like, “Been there, done that. Not doing that again.” 

I remember them trying to put an IV in my hand. I was like, “I don’t need an IV. This kid is coming out of me. I know I tested positive for the strep test, but I don’t need an IV. He’s already out. There’s nothing that this is going to help.”

I get up on the bed. They tried to get me to lay on my back to push and I couldn’t. I remember my husband was like, “No, that’s not how she wanted to push. She wants to push with her knees on the bed and her chest against the back holding on. That’s how she wants to deliver him.”

He was advocating for me which I was so grateful for because I felt the entire time that he didn’t know what I wanted because he didn’t understand my terms, he didn’t understand why, he didn’t understand the VBAC world, so I felt like I was talking to thin air. So for him to sit there and be like, “No, that is not how she is going to deliver this baby. She wants to be on her knees hunkering down.” 

I did. I got up there. I pushed two pushes, and he was out. His hand was stuck to his face. 

Meagan: Nuchal hand, wow. 

Nicole: He was holding onto his face. He got a little stuck because of his elbow, so after I got his head out, they made me flip over and deliver him on my back which I was totally okay with because we had done the hard part. I remember my husband saying that was the weirdest thing watching me turn around with this baby hanging out. 

He was like, “You just flipped around like it was nothing.” I was like, “I knew he was fine.” 

I tore because his hand was up and it was added pressure. But yeah, he came out in two pushes. He was born by 4:36, so 2 hours and I had my baby. It was absolutely wild. 

I just remember that I had him. I was just in the chaos of it, and about two minutes later, my husband was like, “Nicole, you had a VBAC.” I just started shouting it. I was like, “I had a VBAC.” It didn’t even dawn on me in the craziness of it all that I pushed this baby out of me. I was just like, “Is he okay? Is he healthy? Does everything look good? Are you sure he has 10 toes and 10 fingers? Is everything good?” My husband was like, “Nicole, you had a VBAC. You really did it.” 

Yeah. It was crazy. He came so fast which was unexpected and nobody tells you about that. It was just wild, but I had a VBAC. 

Meagan: You had a VBAC with a nuchal hand too. That can be a little tricky sometimes, right? That is amazing, but I love just how intuitively from the very beginning, your body too was like, hands and knees. Forward-leaning position. That’s what your body intuitively was telling you to do to get this baby here. I love that you just went with that. I love that he advocated for you despite not really understanding. I can relate to that. My husband did not understand why I wanted to do what I wanted to do, but it’s so nice to have them be there for you in that ending moment when it really matters so much. 

Nicole: Absolutely, yeah. I was shocked. When he started saying it and he was like, “No. She wants to push like this,” I was like, “What? You listened?” 

Meagan: You listened. I love that. Oh, well thank you so much for sharing that story. Huge congrats and man, precipitous labor like you said, people don’t talk about it. It does happen. It’s funny because I had a long, 42-hour labor. Someone asked me, “Would you rather have a long labor that took forever like that or would you rather have a precipitous labor?” I had said that I really wanted a fourth and I just hoped it went faster. 

I don’t know. I don’t know which one I would prefer because long is exhausting and hard, but man, precipitous– and I have seen them. I have supported them as a doula and seen 2-3 hour-long labors. It’s a lot of change in a body to happen in such a short period of time, and it’s so intense. I mean, it is the next level. So, I don’t know. 

Nicole: It’s crazy. It’s crazy that they are so fast, but your body just knows what it’s doing. That blew my mind. With my daughter, I felt like I was trying. I was listening to everybody, and they were telling me what to do. I was just following suit, but with this one, there were no decisions being made. My body was like, “This is how it’s going to happen and that’s it.” I remember shouting for the epidural when I got in the hospital room. I was like, “I want that epidural. Call the anesthesiologist now.” They were like, “Honey, I think he’s already here. I don’t think we have time for that.” 

My body was like, “No, you’re not sitting down. You’re not going to do this. This is how–” I didn’t even have time to focus on my breathing. My body was just doing it itself which is crazy thinking back on it. My body just knew. I was so down on myself thinking my body had failed me, but then having a super fast labor, my body was just like, “Nope, this is how we’re going to get it done and that’s it.” 

Meagan: Okay, so with precipitous labor too, like you said, it went from 0 to 100 like that. Do you have any tips for moms with that experience of that type of intensity? Obviously, listening to your body and getting to your birthing location on time. I’m assuming that’s continuing. Sometimes, I feel like it can be really intense when it feels like they are ramping up and then they piddle out. But it does, it seems to ramp up, like you said, from 0 to 100 and it hangs on. It holds on tight and it is not stopping.

Nicole: Yeah. Definitely listen to your body. I felt like I spoke up a lot with what was happening at one point. I’ve always been this way where there are certain sounds that make me nauseous if I’m under a lot of stress or if I’m feeling sick, so my husband talking– it’s funny because he was like, “Say your affirmations. You are brave. You can do this.” His talking was making me nauseous. I was like, “Stop. Stop talking. Although it is what I want to hear, it is not helping.” 

Being super open about what was happening like when he went to get the wheelchair, I was like, “I can’t sit in this car. I have to get out.” He was like, “Just sit in the car. Let me help you.” Being super aware and open about what I was feeling and what my body was telling me to do because going up and holding onto this tree, and every time I walk past this tree at medical, I’m like, “I almost gave birth right there had we not gotten that wheelchair open.” Hunkering down on that tree gave so much more relief that it was sitting in the car waiting for him. Although, I know that the car probably would have been the safest option for me rather than the tree with dirt and bushes–

Meagan: Hey, that’s actually pretty cool if that happened. 

Nicole: Right? But knowing what it was and being communicative. Even through all the chaos, every second that I could, I was saying, “This is what I need right now. This is what I’m feeling.” That was helpful not only for myself mentally because I didn’t have the option. Things were just happening, but mentally being aware, and also allowing my husband to help me and support me where I needed was also really helpful. 

Meagan: I love that. Speak up. Follow your body. Have an awesome partner to help guide you through. I think too like what you said earlier, he listened. That goes with speaking up, talking about our feelings, and talking about our desires. Even if you don’t think it’s being understood or really heard, it probably is. 

Nicole: Yeah. It was just so crazy to me with him being like, “I’m so confused why somebody would want to push like that,” then him being like, “No, she’s going to push like that.” I was like, “What? You remembered.” Even in all the craziness, and he thought for sure when I told him to stop when we were driving, he thought I meant to stop the car because he thought I was going to have the baby before I could finish after my contraction, “Stop talking.” 

Yeah, so even through all of the craziness and his mind going rampant, because he’s going through it too thinking, “Am I going to deliver this baby on the side of the road?” Now that we’re in a different country, who do we call? Do we call 9-9-9 or do we call 9-1-1? Do we call base or do we call locals? We’re in the middle of the country. His mindset is going, so having him say that in the craziness was even more powerful. 

Meagan: Mhmm. Oh my gosh. Well, huge congrats again. Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your story. I do know that it’s going to impact someone out there, probably hundreds and thousands of people to be honest, so yeah. Thank you so much. Do you have any other tips or any advice that you’d like to give to any moms in regards to VBAC, in regards to birth, in regards to preparation, or in regards to navigating military changes? Delivering on base or off base? Are there any other suggestions that you’d like to give? 

Nicole: I would say to really trust your instinct. I was obsessed with my first doctor with my daughter and she was my second daughter going into this. Obviously, I couldn’t keep her. I tried to get her to come over here, but she wouldn’t. Trust in your instinct in what you think is right for you and your baby. It’s so interesting to where you believe that this is one thing and this is how it should be, but then when your instincts are kicking in and they are telling you, “This is what’s best for you and your baby,” it’s a whole other path. I just recommend to listen. Listen to your body. Listen to what your gut is telling you. It will fall into place. Things are scary and sometimes things are wild, especially with the military and moving in the middle of a pregnancy. It is terrifying. I’ve known spouses who stay after and they bring their baby over when their baby is 8 weeks old and can finally get a passport. But knowing that you can do it overseas, I definitely think it’s special because your partner is there. It’s just a crazy ride, but if you trust yourself, your self will always guide you in the right way. 

Meagan: Yeah. We’ve been saying it since this podcast started in 2018. Your intuition is so impactful. Trust it all the way. Go with it. I love that advice. Thank you. 

Nicole: Thank you. 

Closing

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