How should Christians respond when political conversations collapse into “what about…” arguments? And what does that habit reveal about power, antagonism, and our theology of government?

In this wide-ranging and pastoral conversation, David Fitch is joined by Gino Curcuruto to explore how whataboutism functions in political discourse and how it quietly shapes church conflicts, leadership breakdowns, and our witness to the world.

Drawing from Scripture, political theology, pastoral experience, and real-life ministry conflict, Fitch and Curcuruto unpack how antagonisms form, why confession disrupts them, and how the church can engage government without asking it to do what only God can do.

🎙️ In This Episode:

1. What whataboutism is and why it perpetuates antagonism rather than accountability
2. How Jesus refuses false binaries and antagonistic traps (John 8; Luke 4)
3. Why confession, not retaliation, is the most powerful leadership posture
4. The difference between viewing government as a created good vs. a post-fall provision
5. How churches unintentionally mirror political power struggles
6. Why holding government accountable is different from trying to control it
7. The spiritual danger of expecting government to do the church’s work

📌 Key Moments:

1. [00:04:00] How “what about Biden?” or “what about Trump?” blocks moral clarity
2. [00:10:30] Why refusing the antagonism opens space for Jesus to work
3. [00:14:30] Confession as the doorway to reconciliation and renewal
4. [00:21:00] When accusations are real—and when they’re projections
5. [00:27:30] Jesus, antagonisms, and the woman caught in adultery
6. [00:30:00] Pre-fall vs. post-fall views of government—and why it matters
7. [00:36:00] Why the church must resist asking government to save the world

💡 Takeaway

Whataboutism doesn’t protect truth. It protects identity. When Christians refuse to unwind antagonisms, we lose our ability to bear faithful witness. But when leaders practice confession, patience, and discernment in community, space opens for the Spirit to heal what power struggles cannot.

📚 Resources & Links Mentioned:

1. David Fitch on Substack 👉 https://davidfitch.substack.com/
2. Gino Curcuruto on Substack 👉 https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/
3. End of Evangelicalism by David Fitch
4. The Church of Us vs. Them by David Fitch
5. Chantel Mouffe’s work on political antagonism (referenced conceptually)
6. Romans 13 (referenced for future discussion on church and state)
7. John 8:1–11 – Jesus and the woman caught in adultery
8. Luke 4 – Jesus’ rejection of worldly power

Where might whataboutism be shaping your leadership, relationships, or political engagement, and what would it look like to pause, listen, and confess instead?

What happens when a theological tradition outlives the cultural moment that gave it meaning?

David Fitch lays out why he no longer identifies as Reformed, not as an attack, but as a contextual theological critique. Joined by Mike Moore, Fitch reflects on how Reformed theology emerged faithfully in medieval Europe, why it made sense there, and why its dominant expressions no longer fit the cultural realities of North America today.

This episode is not a takedown of Luther or Calvin. Instead, it is an invitation to take context seriously: how theology travels, how power works, how Scripture is interpreted, and how unintended consequences shape the church long after doctrines are formed. Along the way, Fitch argues for a constructive alternative rooted in neo-Anabaptist, holiness, and Pentecostal streams traditions shaped for life beyond Christendom.

🎙️ In This Episode:

1. Why all theology is contextual without being relativistic
2. How Reformed theology functioned within medieval Christendom
3. Penal substitutionary atonement: where it made sense—and where it doesn’t
4. How views of sovereignty, hierarchy, and predestination mirror cultural assumptions
5. Why sola scriptura has produced interpretive chaos in modern evangelicalism
6. The case for neo-Anabaptist, holiness, and Pentecostal theology today

📌 Highlights:

1. [00:08:00] Why Protestantism “had nothing to protest” in North America
2. [00:13:00] How Reformed theology was later used to interiorize salvation
3. [00:20:00] Power, sovereignty, and concessions to Christendom
4. [00:26:00] The dangers of unmoored sola scriptura
5. [00:30:00] Why holiness, Pentecostal, and Anabaptist traditions fit our moment

📚 Resources Mentioned:

1. “Protestantism Without Reformation” (1939) by Dietrich Bonhoeffer — found in No Rusty Swords, this essay critiques American Protestantism for losing its reforming edge, a theme echoed throughout this episode.
2. Scott Jones (New Persuasive Words) — “Reforming the Reformers? Dave Fitch, Neo-Baptists, and a Misread Reformation” — Scott and Bill respond directly to Fitch’s post and critique his reading of the Reformers. (Episode 390: https://npw.fireside.fm/390)
3. Gustaf Aulén, Christus Victor — a classic retrieval of Christus Victor atonement theology (named as a corrective to what gets lost when PSA becomes the dominant frame).
4. Anselm of Canterbury, Cur Deus Homo — referenced as part of the medieval background for juridical/forensic atonement frameworks (“it doesn’t mean it wasn’t resident in Ansel”).
5. Robert Schreiter — “all theology is local” referenced as a framing line for the episode’s central claim about contextual theology and continuity without relativism.

The question isn’t whether Reformed theology was ever faithful. It’s whether its dominant assumptions about power, authority, Scripture, and salvation still serve the church’s mission today. Theology must remain faithful to Scripture and attentive to context if it is to form communities that live under the reign of Jesus rather than the logic of empire.

Rather than a “best of” recap, this year-end episode names the deep uncertainties shaping 2026 and asks how followers of Jesus might live faithfully in the midst of them.

From artificial intelligence and political instability to education, housing, and the erosion of trust in institutions, the hosts reflect on the pressures facing Gen Z, pastors, and local churches alike. The conversation circles back again and again to one central question:

Where should we center our lives when everything else feels unstable?

🎙️ In This Episode:

1. Why AI may be more disruptive to human formation than the internet
2. The growing normalization of political violence and public mistrust
3. The collapse and reimagining of higher education and theological formation
4. Why homeownership feels impossible and how churches might respond creatively
5. What it means to center life in the local church amid cultural fragmentation

📌 Highlights:

1. [00:08:00] AI, creativity, and resisting a culture of convenience
2. [00:17:00] Political unrest and the call to local faithfulness
3. [00:26:00] Education’s crisis—and why formation still matters
4. [00:31:00] Housing, community, and economic imagination
5. [00:39:00] Centering life in the church rather than institutions or identity markers

When institutions falter, and the future feels unclear, the church is called to become a visible alternative—not a retreat from the world, but a grounded community of discernment, presence, and hope. The work ahead is not to predict the future, but to faithfully inhabit it together.

If 2026 truly is a year of uncertainty, what would it look like to locate your identity not in success, security, or certainty but in a shared life centered on Jesus, practiced in real neighborhoods, with real people?

Can the Bible still guide faithful political engagement—or has it been too abused to help?

In this timely conversation, Dave Fitch and Mike Moore welcome theologian, author, and Holy Post co-host Kaitlyn Schiess to discuss her book The Ballot and the Bible: How Scripture Has Been Used and Abused in American Politics and Where We Go from Here.

Together, they explore how American Christians have wielded (and often weaponized) the Bible in public life. From Romans 13 and the Revolutionary War to slavery, civil rights, and the rise of Christian nationalism. Kaitlyn offers both a critique of misuse and a hopeful invitation: to reclaim Scripture as a source of wisdom, hospitality, and faithful witness in the public square.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• Why the Bible still matters for politics (even after all the misuse)
• How Romans 13 has been used to justify everything from rebellion to tyranny
• The disturbing history of biblical defenses of slavery and what we can learn from Black interpreters
• How the civil rights movement modeled faithful, embodied, Scripture-shaped resistance
• Why pastors and leaders must form people for faithfulness, not just political alignment

📌 Highlights:

• [00:06:00] How Scripture became “weaponized” in the American Revolution
• [00:13:00] Romans 13 and the danger of using the Bible to win political arguments
• [00:19:00] How enslaved believers read the Bible differently and more faithfully than their oppressors
• [00:27:00] MLK and the Black Church as a model for Scripture-shaped activism
• [00:33:00] Why true political discipleship starts in the church, not the state

The problem isn’t that the Bible speaks to politics; it’s that we’ve forgotten how to let it form us before we use it. The call today is not to abandon Scripture in public life but to recover its use as an act of love, truth, and hospitality.

📚 Resources Mentioned:

• The Ballot and the Bible by Kaitlyn Schiess
• The Liturgy of Politics by Kaitlyn Schiess
• The Spirit of Our Politics by Michael Wear
• Reckoning with Power by David Fitch
• The Christian Imagination by Willie James Jennings
• The Fire in My Bones by Albert Raboteau
• Resident Aliens by Stanley Hauerwas & William Willimon

When Scripture is used to defend power instead of form faith, everyone loses.

What would it look like to read the Bible not to win debates, but to become the kind of people who can love, listen, and lead in public as followers of Jesus?

What if racism isn’t primarily about ignorance or hate, but about greed?

In this episode, Dave Fitch and guest co-host Gino Curcuruto sit down with Dr. Malcolm Foley, pastor, scholar, and author of The Anti-Greed Gospel: Why the Love of Money is the Root of Racism and How the Church Can Create a New Way Forward.

Dr. Foley unpacks how economic exploitation lies at the heart of racial injustice—and why Jesus’ warning that “you cannot serve both God and mammon” is as urgent today as ever. Together they explore the demonic cycle of self-interest that perpetuates racism through exploitation, violence, and lies, and they offer a vision for Christian communities shaped by deep economic solidarity, creative nonviolence, and prophetic truth-telling.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• Why greed—not hate—is the true root of racism
• How capitalism and racial hierarchy became intertwined
• The role of mammon as a spiritual power deforming the church
• Why anti-racism and reparations often miss the deeper structural sin
• How the church can become a visible alternative to exploitation and fear

📌 Highlights:

• [00:09:00] Race as a “demonic cycle” of exploitation, violence, and lies
• [00:13:00] How greed drives racialized slavery, lynching, and modern inequities
• [00:18:00] Why the church must flee mammon, not just manage it
• [00:24:00] The Sermon on the Mount as a blueprint for kingdom economics
• [00:35:00] How local churches can witness through economic solidarity and love of enemies

We can’t end racism without confronting greed. The good news: the church already holds the resources to resist mammon and embody a new economy of grace.

📚 Resources Mentioned:

• The Anti-Greed Gospel by Malcolm Foley (Brazos Press)
• Asian Americans and the Spirit of Racial Capitalism by Jonathan Tran
• God’s Reign and the End of Empires by Antonio González
• Reckoning with Power by David Fitch
• Mosaic Church Waco
• Malcolm Foley at Baylor University

What if a true test of discipleship isn’t how we treat differences but how we handle money? How could your church become a community of economic solidarity, creative peace, and prophetic truth in the face of mammon’s pull?

What happens when church leadership shifts from pulpits to platforms? In this episode, Dave Fitch and guest co-host Gino Curcuruto unpack Carl Trueman’s article, “Goodbye Big Eva, Hello Gig Eva,” exploring how evangelical culture has moved from the conference stage to the influencer feed, and what that means for the church.

Together, they trace the shift from “Big Eva” (celebrity pastors and large conferences) to “Gig Eva” (independent online influencers shaping faith outside accountability or community). The conversation wrestles with how this new ecosystem forms pastors, congregations, and the public imagination of what “church” even is and calls for a recovery of embodied, local, presence-based ministry.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• The difference between Big Eva and Gig Eva—and why both shape the church’s imagination
• How digital influence redefines leadership, authority, and credibility
• The danger of disembodied discipleship and social media “theology”
• Why pastors must resist measuring faithfulness by metrics or clicks
• How to reclaim embodied church in an age of platform-driven ministry

📌 Highlights:

• [00:07:00] “Big Eva” as the era of celebrity pastors and conference platforms
• [00:10:00] “Gig Eva” as the rise of influencers without local accountability
• [00:17:00] How online perception replaces real discipleship
• [00:24:00] The lure of success, self-promotion, and burnout in ministry
• [00:33:00] Embodied church as the faithful alternative to the gig economy

The future of the church isn’t in virality, it’s in presence. Faithful ministry grows from local soil, not from algorithms. The way forward is slow, small, and deeply relational.

📖 Resources Mentioned:

• “Goodbye Big Eva, Hello Gig Eva” by Carl Trueman (First Things)
• The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self by Carl R. Trueman
• Reckoning with Power: Why the Church Fails When It’s on the Wrong Side of Power by David Fitch
• The Strategically Small Church by Brandon O’Brien
• The Glass Church and The Church Must Grow or Perish by Gerardo Marti & Mark Mulder
• Table Philly Church
• Fitch’s Provocations (Substack)

What does it mean to lead faithfully when “success” is measured by followers, not fruit? How can your church move from digital performance to embodied presence?

What’s really driving America’s political chaos, and what does it mean for the church?

In this episode, Dave Fitch and Mike Moore dig beneath partisan headlines to uncover the deeper philosophical divide shaping our cultural and theological conflicts. Fitch traces the roots of our polarization to two competing political visions: liberal democracy (centered on individual freedom) and national conservatism (centered on shared cultural values).

From there, they explore how both sides fall short and why neither has room for the church. The conversation turns toward what it means for Christians to embody a third way: a politic of the kingdom rooted in community, discipleship, and the lordship of Christ.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• The deep ideological divide behind America’s political wars
• Liberal democracy vs. national conservatism—what each gets right (and wrong)
• How both sides sideline the church
• Why coercion and individualism can never produce kingdom life
• What pastors can do to lead faithfully in a polarized world

📌 Highlights:

• [00:05:00] The individual vs. the collective—two visions of society
• [00:10:00] Why Christian nationalism fails in a multicultural world
• [00:15:00] Hauerwas, Rawls, and the politics of virtue
• [00:21:00] The church as an alternative politic
• [00:24:00] “Start with five people”: how pastors can build kingdom communities amid chaos

Both liberal democracy and national conservatism promise freedom, but only the church can form people to live free in Christ.

When Christians embody the politics of Jesus together, they become the living alternative our polarized world desperately needs.

Two weeks after the assassination of Charlie Kirk, Dave Fitch and Mike Moore process the grief, confusion, and cultural fallout surrounding his death.

Beyond the tragedy, they explore what Charlie Kirk symbolized in American Christianity—and what his influence reveals about the modern church’s failures in discipleship, community, and cultural engagement.

Fitch argues that Kirk’s rise, and the polarization surrounding him, exposes an empty ecclesiology: a Christianity shaped more by individualism and ideology than by the life of the local church. Together, the hosts ask hard questions about power, influence, and the role of the church in a politically divided age.

Charlie Kirk as a Cultural Symbol (Part 1): https://substack.com/home/post/p-173936722

Charlie Kirk is a Cultural Symbol (Part 2): https://davidfitch.substack.com/p/charlie-kirk-is-a-cultural-symbol

🎙️ In This Episode:

• The difference between Charlie Kirk the person and Charlie Kirk the cultural symbol
• How antagonism replaces real conversation in our political and religious discourse
• The church’s failure to disciple young people and engage complex moral questions
• Why “influencers” are filling the space the church has vacated
• How individualistic faith leads to political idolatry

📌 Highlights:

• [00:05:00] Why Charlie Kirk became a master signifier of political identity
• [00:10:00] How antagonism keeps us from addressing real issues on the ground
• [00:15:00] The influencer as a substitute for the church
• [00:22:00] The hunger of young men for direction and discipleship
• [00:27:00] From personal faith to political power: how individualism fuels Christian nationalism

Charlie Kirk’s rise and death reveal both the brokenness of our political moment and the vacuum left by the church’s retreat from public discipleship. Until the church reclaims its call to embody the presence and power of Jesus in community, political idols will keep filling the gap.

What happens when we read the Bible faithfully but miss the culture we’re speaking into?

In this episode, Dave Fitch and Mike Moore dig into why biblical studies and cultural studies must go hand in hand for pastors, leaders, and everyday Christians. From sexuality to money, from language to power, interpretation always happens inside a culture.

Ignore that, and our preaching either falls flat or feels dictatorial.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• Why evangelicals and post-evangelicals default to biblical studies but often ignore cultural dynamics
• How terms like “gay” or even “marriage” carry radically different meanings in different communities
• Why listening to culture is essential before speaking the gospel into it
• Practical stories from Hyde Park, Wheaton, and Boystown on how cultural contexts shape identity and desire
• What pastors and parents can learn about engaging teens and younger generations

📌 Highlights:

• [00:05:00] Why evangelicals are blind to cultural dynamics
• [00:09:00] Romans 1 and the problem of assuming “gay” means the same thing across times and places
• [00:16:00] Learning cultural dynamics by listening in coffee shops, not just reading books
• [00:21:00] Why assumptions about money, power, and sexuality can shut people off from the gospel
• [00:24:00] The call to humility and presence in our cultural engagement

Pastors don’t just need to read their Bibles; they need to read their neighborhoods. Without cultural awareness, even the most faithful biblical interpretation can miss the mark.

Russell Moore kicks off Season 11 with an honest and wide-ranging conversation about the fractured state of American evangelicalism. From his own departure from the SBC to his reflections on revival, integrity, and biblical authority, Moore offers both critique and hope. Dave and Mike push into what needs preserving, what needs reimagining, and where we might see life again in the dry bones of evangelical witness.

Whether you’re nostalgic for the church you grew up in, disillusioned by it, or daring to believe something new is possible—this episode offers wisdom, challenge, and a reminder of the gospel’s power to revive.

🎧 In This Episode:

• The danger of using Christianity as a means to an end
• Why “personal” doesn’t have to mean “individualistic”
• Scripture as encounter vs. information
• What real revival might look like today
• Recovering wonder, hope, and moral credibility in the church

🛠 Resources Mentioned:

• Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America by Russell Moore
• The Russell Moore Show – podcast from Christianity Today
• Reckoning with Power: Why the Church Fails When It's on the Wrong Side of Power by David Fitch
• Center for Public Theology at Christianity Today