Can Christian nationalism appear on both the political right and the political left?

In the Season 11 finale, Dave Fitch and Mike Moore examine the public Christianity of James Talarico and ask what his political vision reveals about the relationship between the church, the state, and the Kingdom of God.

Fitch argues that Christian nationalism is not limited to conservative evangelicals attempting to impose traditional morality through government. It can also emerge within Protestant liberalism whenever politicians identify their preferred policies with the teachings of Jesus and use the power of the state to implement them.

The two approaches begin with very different assumptions. Evangelical fundamentalist nationalism tends to view the world pessimistically and grants government broad coercive power to restrain evil. Protestant liberal nationalism is more optimistic about society and emphasizes democracy, human dignity, justice, and restraint. Fitch rejects both attempts to merge Christianity with the nation-state, but argues that, when forced to choose, he would prefer the Protestant liberal version because it is generally less coercive and more attentive to the dignity of persons.

Using Talarico as a case study, Fitch and Moore explore voting as an act of prudence rather than theological endorsement. Christians should not expect government to accomplish the redemptive work of the church. Instead, they can seek the most just and responsible government available while protecting space for disagreement, local discernment, and faithful Christian witness.

• Why Christian nationalism is not confined to conservative politics
• The difference between evangelical fundamentalist and Protestant liberal nationalism
• Martin Luther’s distinction between the coercive power of the state and the redemptive work of God
• How pessimistic and optimistic views of culture shape political engagement
• Walter Rauschenbusch, Reinhold Niebuhr, and competing visions of democracy
• Why voting for someone is not the same as endorsing their theology
• How Christians can pursue responsible government without asking the state to do the church’s work
• Why democracy must preserve room for disagreement on sexuality, gender, abortion, race, and other contested moral questions

• [00:04:00] Why James Talarico raises new questions about Christian nationalism
• [00:09:00] Why Fitch rejects the union of God’s purposes with the nation-state
• [00:11:00] The coercive power of government versus the redemptive power of the Spirit
• [00:13:00] Christian nationalism on the political right and left
• [00:17:00] How evangelical fundamentalism’s view of the world can justify authoritarian power
• [00:22:00] Protestant liberalism, democracy, and respect for human dignity
• [00:28:00] Can liberal policies also become coercive or violent?
• [00:33:00] Why Fitch would still vote for Talarico
• [00:35:00] The need for democratic space to disagree over disputed moral questions

Christians should neither withdraw from government nor confuse it with the Kingdom of God. Voting is often an exercise in prudence, restraint, and reducing harm, not finding a candidate who perfectly represents Jesus.

A faithful political witness seeks good government while refusing to place divine authority behind one party’s disputed moral agenda. The church must remain free to discern, disagree, and embody the way of Jesus without asking the state to enforce it.

What if the church has confused orthodoxy with discipleship?

In this thought-provoking conversation, David Fitch and Mike Moore wrestle with a question facing churches across denominations: When should an issue become a test of orthodoxy, and when should it remain a matter of faithful discipleship?

Prompted by an essay from James K. A. Smith, Fitch argues that the church often elevates disputed ethical questions into matters of orthodoxy, shutting down the very conversations necessary for faithful mission. Rather than abandoning orthodoxy, he proposes recovering a richer understanding of faithfulness, one that takes the historic creeds seriously while extending the gospel into new cultural realities through patient discernment, community, and discipleship.

Using contemporary debates around sexuality as a case study, Fitch and Moore explore why theological convictions and pastoral formation must never be separated, and why the church's witness depends on learning to discern together rather than simply declaring winners and losers.

• The difference between orthodoxy and discipleship
• Why some issues belong in the realm of faithful discernment rather than confessional boundaries
• How the historic creeds continue to guide the church without ending every conversation
• Why contextual theology is about extending, not changing, the gospel
• What the Apostle Paul teaches us about applying the gospel in new cultural settings
• How churches can cultivate discipleship instead of merely enforcing positions
• Why "faithfulness" may be a more helpful posture than simply asking who is "orthodox"

• [00:04:00] Jamie K. A. Smith's challenge to the modern use of "orthodoxy"
• [00:10:00] Distinguishing orthodoxy from discipleship
• [00:17:00] Why Paul models contextual theology instead of rigid application
• [00:22:00] Faithfulness as extending the gospel into new situations
• [00:26:00] Why heterosexual discipleship must be part of the conversation too
• [00:29:00] Two ways of understanding orthodoxy: control or discernment
• [00:34:00] Why the church needs a discipleship process—not just doctrinal statements

Orthodoxy and discipleship are deeply connected, but they are not the same thing. Historic Christian convictions provide the church's foundation, while faithful discipleship asks how those convictions are embodied, discerned, and lived in ever-changing cultural contexts. The church's calling is not simply to preserve truth, but to faithfully extend the story of Jesus into every generation.

What if spiritual formation was never meant to be private self-improvement, but training for life in the Kingdom of God?

David Fitch and Mike Moore welcome Keas Keasler to discuss his new book, Kingdom Apprenticeship, an exploration of Dallas Willard’s theology of spiritual formation and its implications for mission, discipleship, and the church.

Together, they revisit Willard’s enduring influence on evangelical spirituality while wrestling honestly with some of the tensions surrounding the modern spiritual formation movement. Is Willard too individualistic? Does spiritual formation risk becoming a luxury for affluent Christians detached from the local church? Or does Willard actually offer a deeper ecclesiology and missional vision than many critics assume?

The conversation ranges from Bonhoeffer and Hauerwas to megachurches, silence and solitude, ecclesiology, virtue, and the dangers of “churchmanship.” Along the way, Fitch shares deeply personal stories about Dallas Willard’s influence on his life and ministry, including a moving final message delivered from Willard’s last ambulance ride to the hospital.

• Why Dallas Willard should be understood as a theologian of the Christian life
• The relationship between spiritual formation and missional theology
• Whether Willard’s theology is too individualistic or surprisingly ecclesial
• Bonhoeffer’s influence on Willard’s understanding of the church
• Why spiritual practices can become detached from community and mission
• The meaning of “training for reigning” in Kingdom discipleship
• How character formation relates to power, vocation, and participation in God’s Kingdom

• [00:09:00] Common misconceptions about Dallas Willard’s theology
• [00:13:00] Willard’s journey from pastor to philosopher and spiritual writer
• [00:17:00] Spiritual formation and mission: bridging two worlds
• [00:21:00] Fitch challenges Willard’s ecclesiology—and Kees pushes back
• [00:27:00] Bonhoeffer, Hauerwas, and the church as a “divine sociality”
• [00:36:00] The dangers of affluent, individualized spirituality
• [00:43:00] “Training for reigning”: Willard’s vision of Kingdom apprenticeship

Spiritual formation is not self-help for religious people. It is training for participation in the reign of God. The goal is not escape from the world, but transformation into people capable of wielding power, vocation, and influence in the way of Jesus.

What if the church’s debates over sexuality are asking the wrong questions?

In this candid, unscripted, and at times deeply personal conversation, David Fitch and Mike Moore wrestle with one of the most difficult and divisive issues facing the church today: sexuality, LGBTQ inclusion, and the limits of both “affirming” and “non-affirming” frameworks.

Rather than beginning with policy statements or ideological labels, Fitch argues that the deeper issue is the culture of sexuality itself. What he calls the “heterosexual matrix” that shapes both the church and the broader culture. Together, Fitch and Moore explore why churches often lack meaningful pathways for discipleship around sexuality, why policy statements rarely form people, and how the church might recover a more faithful posture rooted in presence, discernment, and the work of the Holy Spirit.

The result is less a debate and more an honest theological conversation about formation, culture, power, welcome, and what it means to pastor faithfully in a deeply polarized moment.

• Why both “affirming” and “non-affirming” frameworks can become ideological
• The “heterosexual matrix” and how culture shapes sexuality in the church
• Why policy statements rarely produce discipleship or formation
• The tension between pastoral care and theological conviction
• How churches fail to disciple people in all forms of sexuality
• The difference between coercion and Spirit-led formation
• Why the church needs a new imagination for sexuality and community

• [00:03:00] Fitch introduces his critique of LGBTQ policy statements
• [00:06:30] Three ways to engage culture: individualism, authoritarianism, and the church as reconciled community
• [00:12:00] Why focusing only on individuals bypasses the deeper cultural problem
• [00:15:00] How policy statements preserve ideology rather than form discipleship
• [00:20:00] The church’s lack of imagination for embodied sexual formation
• [00:27:00] Rainbow flags, ideology, and the limits of labeling churches
• [00:37:00] Re-reading Genesis, patriarchy, and discerning sexuality locally and pastorally

The church cannot disciple people using the categories and assumptions of a polarized culture. Faithful formation requires more than policy statements; it requires communities shaped by presence, welcome, discernment, confession, and the ongoing work of Jesus Christ in the midst of human brokenness.

From the rise (and fall) of the emerging church to the challenges of post-evangelical faith, from seminary formation to everyday discipleship, this episode captures what it sounds like when leaders wrestle honestly with where the church has been—and where it’s going.

In this special crossover episode, David Fitch and Mike Moore join Andy Littleton and Eric Cepin from the Faith Over Breakfast podcast for a wide-ranging, unscripted conversation on ministry, theology, and life in the real world.

Drawing from their shared (and sometimes diverging) experiences in the emerging church movement, the conversation explores why some communities deconstructed and disappeared—while others stayed rooted and endured. Along the way, they reflect on the role of deep community, the dangers of untethered deconstruction, and why faith must remain centered on Jesus, not just ideas or experiences.

At the center of it all is a shared conviction: you don’t get to make the faith up as you go. You receive it, wrestle with it, and live it out in real communities with real people.

Listen to more episodes of Faith Over Breakfast: https://pod.link/1242441594

• Reflections on the emerging church movement—and what led to its fragmentation
• Why some leaders deconstructed out of faith while others stayed rooted
• The role of deep, committed community in sustaining belief
• The tension between therapy, self-discovery, and Christ-centered discipleship
• Why theology must be lived, not just learned in classrooms
• What makes a church (or seminary) actually form people for real life
• Why context shapes ministry—and why no model transfers cleanly

• [00:06:00] Eric’s story: planting in the emerging church and staying rooted
• [00:16:00] Community as the anchor through doubt and theological shifts
• [00:22:00] When therapy replaces discipleship—and how to bring Jesus back to the center
• [00:31:00] “You don’t get to make it up”: receiving the faith across generations
• [00:36:00] Every church is a seminary—whether it realizes it or not
• [00:43:00] Why ministry must be contextual, not formulaic
• [00:56:00] Culture, power, and understanding the moment for mission

Faith isn’t formed in isolation or ideology—it’s formed in community, through struggle, and in submission to Jesus. In a time when many are tempted to walk away or reinvent everything, this conversation reminds us: stay rooted, stay honest, and stay with the people God has given you.

Why does the Bible so often feel disconnected from real life—and what would it take to close that gap?

David Fitch and Mike Moore sit down with Old Testament scholar Bo Lim to explore his book Contextual Theological Interpretation. Together, they tackle one of the most pressing challenges facing the church today: how to faithfully interpret Scripture across cultures, contexts, and competing theological frameworks.

Lim argues that biblical interpretation cannot live in silos. Historical-critical study, theological tradition, and cultural context must be held together in a dynamic, ongoing dialogue. When any one of these dominates, the Bible either becomes irrelevant, weaponized, or detached from lived reality.

Drawing from years of scholarship, teaching, and lived experience as a Korean American theologian, Lim offers a vision for reading Scripture that is both faithful to the text and responsive to the complexities of our world.

• Why there is a growing “gap” between biblical studies and real-world ministry
• The limits of historical-critical interpretation alone
• How theological interpretation reclaims Scripture for the life of the church
• What contextual interpretation brings—and where it can go too far
• Why all theology is already shaped by culture (even when we pretend it’s not)
• How to hold text, theology, and context together without collapsing into relativism
• Why multicultural ministry demands a new way of reading Scripture

• [00:04:00] The “gap” between Scripture and contemporary life
• [00:09:00] Historical criticism vs. theological interpretation
• [00:17:00] What contextual interpretation actually means
• [00:22:00] Why theological traditions are always culturally shaped
• [00:27:00] The hidden biases in biblical commentaries and scholarship
• [00:33:00] Liberation vs. post-colonial readings of Scripture
• [00:38:00] Why no single method is sufficient on its own

Faithful biblical interpretation is not about choosing between text, theology, or context. It's about learning to listen to all three in conversation. When we do, we begin to hear God’s voice not just in the past, but in the present realities of the communities we serve.

“In the beginning, God created…”

What if the most urgent ethical task for Christians today is simply to remember that we are creatures?

In this rich and deeply theological conversation, David Fitch and Mike Moore welcome Brian Brock to discuss his major work, Joining Creation's Praise. Together, they explore how confessing creatureliness reshapes Christian ethics from dominion and vocation to politics, sexuality, economics, and our relationship with the rest of creation.

Brock argues that Scripture begins not with abstract doctrines but with a drama: God in conversation with creatures. Human beings are called not to dominate creation but to join its praise to embody Christ’s image as conduits of divine life. When we forget we are creatures, we distort power, knowledge, and even our understanding of what it means to be human.

Following the early chapters of Genesis, Brock invites the church to rediscover an ancient wisdom that speaks with surprising clarity to modern ethical crises.

1. Why “creatureliness” is the foundation of Christian ethics
2. How Genesis reframes dominion as participation, not control
3. The difference between domination and receiving life from God
4. Sabbath as resistance to modern productivity and mastery
5. How confessing we are creatures reshapes politics and economics
6. Why human dignity is inseparable from our shared creaturely status
7. What it means to embody Christ’s image among other creatures

1. [00:06:00] Why ethics begins with creaturely confession
2. [00:14:00] Dominion, vocation, and the distortion of power
3. [00:21:00] Knowledge, wisdom, and the limits of human mastery
4. [00:28:00] Sabbath and the reordering of desire
5. [00:35:00] Politics and economics through a creaturely lens
6. [00:42:00] How Christ restores humanity to its true vocation

The ethical life does not begin with moral technique but with worship. To confess that we are creatures is to relinquish control, receive life from God, and participate in a world already praising its Creator. In a culture obsessed with autonomy and power, rediscovering creatureliness may be the church’s most radical witness.

How should Christians respond when political conversations collapse into “what about…” arguments? And what does that habit reveal about power, antagonism, and our theology of government?

In this wide-ranging and pastoral conversation, David Fitch is joined by Gino Curcuruto to explore how whataboutism functions in political discourse and how it quietly shapes church conflicts, leadership breakdowns, and our witness to the world.

Drawing from Scripture, political theology, pastoral experience, and real-life ministry conflict, Fitch and Curcuruto unpack how antagonisms form, why confession disrupts them, and how the church can engage government without asking it to do what only God can do.

🎙️ In This Episode:

1. What whataboutism is and why it perpetuates antagonism rather than accountability
2. How Jesus refuses false binaries and antagonistic traps (John 8; Luke 4)
3. Why confession, not retaliation, is the most powerful leadership posture
4. The difference between viewing government as a created good vs. a post-fall provision
5. How churches unintentionally mirror political power struggles
6. Why holding government accountable is different from trying to control it
7. The spiritual danger of expecting government to do the church’s work

📌 Key Moments:

1. [00:04:00] How “what about Biden?” or “what about Trump?” blocks moral clarity
2. [00:10:30] Why refusing the antagonism opens space for Jesus to work
3. [00:14:30] Confession as the doorway to reconciliation and renewal
4. [00:21:00] When accusations are real—and when they’re projections
5. [00:27:30] Jesus, antagonisms, and the woman caught in adultery
6. [00:30:00] Pre-fall vs. post-fall views of government—and why it matters
7. [00:36:00] Why the church must resist asking government to save the world

💡 Takeaway

Whataboutism doesn’t protect truth. It protects identity. When Christians refuse to unwind antagonisms, we lose our ability to bear faithful witness. But when leaders practice confession, patience, and discernment in community, space opens for the Spirit to heal what power struggles cannot.

📚 Resources & Links Mentioned:

1. David Fitch on Substack 👉 https://davidfitch.substack.com/
2. Gino Curcuruto on Substack 👉 https://ginocurcuruto.substack.com/
3. End of Evangelicalism by David Fitch
4. The Church of Us vs. Them by David Fitch
5. Chantel Mouffe’s work on political antagonism (referenced conceptually)
6. Romans 13 (referenced for future discussion on church and state)
7. John 8:1–11 – Jesus and the woman caught in adultery
8. Luke 4 – Jesus’ rejection of worldly power

Where might whataboutism be shaping your leadership, relationships, or political engagement, and what would it look like to pause, listen, and confess instead?

What happens when a theological tradition outlives the cultural moment that gave it meaning?

David Fitch lays out why he no longer identifies as Reformed, not as an attack, but as a contextual theological critique. Joined by Mike Moore, Fitch reflects on how Reformed theology emerged faithfully in medieval Europe, why it made sense there, and why its dominant expressions no longer fit the cultural realities of North America today.

This episode is not a takedown of Luther or Calvin. Instead, it is an invitation to take context seriously: how theology travels, how power works, how Scripture is interpreted, and how unintended consequences shape the church long after doctrines are formed. Along the way, Fitch argues for a constructive alternative rooted in neo-Anabaptist, holiness, and Pentecostal streams traditions shaped for life beyond Christendom.

🎙️ In This Episode:

1. Why all theology is contextual without being relativistic
2. How Reformed theology functioned within medieval Christendom
3. Penal substitutionary atonement: where it made sense—and where it doesn’t
4. How views of sovereignty, hierarchy, and predestination mirror cultural assumptions
5. Why sola scriptura has produced interpretive chaos in modern evangelicalism
6. The case for neo-Anabaptist, holiness, and Pentecostal theology today

📌 Highlights:

1. [00:08:00] Why Protestantism “had nothing to protest” in North America
2. [00:13:00] How Reformed theology was later used to interiorize salvation
3. [00:20:00] Power, sovereignty, and concessions to Christendom
4. [00:26:00] The dangers of unmoored sola scriptura
5. [00:30:00] Why holiness, Pentecostal, and Anabaptist traditions fit our moment

📚 Resources Mentioned:

1. “Protestantism Without Reformation” (1939) by Dietrich Bonhoeffer — found in No Rusty Swords, this essay critiques American Protestantism for losing its reforming edge, a theme echoed throughout this episode.
2. Scott Jones (New Persuasive Words) — “Reforming the Reformers? Dave Fitch, Neo-Baptists, and a Misread Reformation” — Scott and Bill respond directly to Fitch’s post and critique his reading of the Reformers. (Episode 390: https://npw.fireside.fm/390)
3. Gustaf Aulén, Christus Victor — a classic retrieval of Christus Victor atonement theology (named as a corrective to what gets lost when PSA becomes the dominant frame).
4. Anselm of Canterbury, Cur Deus Homo — referenced as part of the medieval background for juridical/forensic atonement frameworks (“it doesn’t mean it wasn’t resident in Ansel”).
5. Robert Schreiter — “all theology is local” referenced as a framing line for the episode’s central claim about contextual theology and continuity without relativism.

The question isn’t whether Reformed theology was ever faithful. It’s whether its dominant assumptions about power, authority, Scripture, and salvation still serve the church’s mission today. Theology must remain faithful to Scripture and attentive to context if it is to form communities that live under the reign of Jesus rather than the logic of empire.

Rather than a “best of” recap, this year-end episode names the deep uncertainties shaping 2026 and asks how followers of Jesus might live faithfully in the midst of them.

From artificial intelligence and political instability to education, housing, and the erosion of trust in institutions, the hosts reflect on the pressures facing Gen Z, pastors, and local churches alike. The conversation circles back again and again to one central question:

Where should we center our lives when everything else feels unstable?

🎙️ In This Episode:

1. Why AI may be more disruptive to human formation than the internet
2. The growing normalization of political violence and public mistrust
3. The collapse and reimagining of higher education and theological formation
4. Why homeownership feels impossible and how churches might respond creatively
5. What it means to center life in the local church amid cultural fragmentation

📌 Highlights:

1. [00:08:00] AI, creativity, and resisting a culture of convenience
2. [00:17:00] Political unrest and the call to local faithfulness
3. [00:26:00] Education’s crisis—and why formation still matters
4. [00:31:00] Housing, community, and economic imagination
5. [00:39:00] Centering life in the church rather than institutions or identity markers

When institutions falter, and the future feels unclear, the church is called to become a visible alternative—not a retreat from the world, but a grounded community of discernment, presence, and hope. The work ahead is not to predict the future, but to faithfully inhabit it together.

If 2026 truly is a year of uncertainty, what would it look like to locate your identity not in success, security, or certainty but in a shared life centered on Jesus, practiced in real neighborhoods, with real people?