Thinking Christian with Drs. James Spencer and Ashish Varma

Veronica Roberts Ogle teaches at Villanova and wrote Politics and the Earthly City in Augustine's City of God. She joins James Spencer for the third episode in the faith and politics series.

She begins with why the book exists. Rome was sacked in 410, the first breach of the city's walls in centuries, and Romans wanted to know whether Christianity had cost them the protection of the old gods — while Christians, riding the high of a converted emperor, were asking why their God hadn't defended them either. Augustine's answer took thirteen years and twenty-two books.

Ogle explains the two cities as loves rather than places: one formed by God's love carried as far as contempt of self, the other by self-love carried as far as contempt of God. She unpacks what "contempt of self" does and doesn't mean, and pushes back on reading the ordo amoris as a ranked list — everything is loved in God, not after God.

The conversation turns to what this means for political life: why no political community has an eschatological end, why Augustine is no optimist about politics, and why he thought a judge should see himself as the woman caught in adultery.

Go deeper: Christians & Politics

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Chapters:

00:00 Introductions, and finding Augustine

04:01 The sack of Rome and why City of God got written

09:19 Nations can be healthier or sicker — but not transformed

13:54 Two cities, two loves

17:06 What "contempt of self" actually means 

17:38 Ordered loves: not a ranked list

22:18 Political community and the peace it can reach

28:11 Is the church the same as the city of God?

34:41 What political participation actually is

38:39 Two kinds of father, two kinds of household

43:32 Augustine's letters to Christian judges

45:42 The loaf of bread: need and proximity

48:34 Compassion at a distance, and what we can actually do

53:25 Where to start reading Augustine

 

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David Koyzis returns to the show for the second episode in the faith and politics series. He's a member of Global Scholars Canada and the author of Political Visions and Illusions, We Answer to Another, and Citizenship Without Illusions — and he spent his first thirty years in the Chicago area before moving to Canada, which gives him an unusual vantage on American national feeling.

Koyzis starts with divided loyalties: we belong to families, congregations, workplaces, and nations, and none of those communities exhausts who we are. The political community isn't higher than the others. From there the conversation turns to what makes American identity different — the pledge, the anthem, the flag in the sanctuary — and why "Canadian first" is a phrase that would get you laughed at.

James raises Robert Bellah on American civil religion. Both men admit to a season of refusing to sing the national anthem, and neither holds that position now. They also discuss why hope is not optimism, why presidents get credited with powers they've never had, and gratitude as the alternative to a posture of constant complaint — the subject of Koyzis's forthcoming book on the Heidelberg Catechism.

Chapters:

00:00 Welcome back

01:55 Divided loyalties, and what none of them can define

03:48 "First allegiance" isn't a pie chart

06:01 Living the whole day before the face of God

09:40 What's different about American identity

14:20 The pledge, the anthem, and inculcating a nation

16:05 Bellah on American civil religion

19:31 Pride, and the hope it starts to cultivate

21:07 Hope is not optimism

21:38 Why we expect presidents to save us

24:53 Flags in the sanctuary

29:08 The Heidelberg Catechism project

33:48 Public life is wider than politics

34:57 Toward a politics of gratitude

36:20 Deuteronomy 8 and forgetting the source

40:03 Inconspicuous patterns, and what we take for granted

43:10 Formation first, politics second

46:10 Advice for an election season

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The first episode in a series on faith and politics running through the midterms. James Spencer and Ashish Varma set the terms before the guests arrive.

Ashish starts with the word itself: polis, the city — the shared life of a community, of which party politics is only a narrow slice. That opens the question the series will keep returning to. Paul had no power to abolish slavery, but he could tell Philemon that Onesimus was returning as a brother, and in doing so redraw a line the empire had drawn elsewhere. That is political work, done without any political agency in the sense we usually mean.

James argues that voting is a voluntary right rather than a sacred duty, and explains why he doesn't always exercise it. Ashish tells the story of asking a pastor why the people who filled the building for ESL classes on Tuesday were absent on Sunday. Both land on 1 Corinthians 7: you don't have to change your situation to serve God where you are.

Guests across the series include Kevin Flatt, Veronica Ogle, William Cavanaugh, Vincent Bacote, and others.

Chapters:

00:00 Why this series, and what it won't do

03:06 What students expect from a political theology class

04:37 Polis: the city, and what "political" actually covers

06:00 Is the gospel political?

08:26 Paul's constraints, and ours 

09:51 Political agency without political power

11:35 "The poor you will always have with you"

13:25 Nested authority: everything under God's

16:13 Philemon, Onesimus, and redrawing the line

17:43 Reimagining: children, packaging, and a can of Coke

21:06 Voting as a right, not a sacred duty

25:24 Pro-life advocacy and the children who age out

28:16 A church on the boundary lines of Chicago

32:02 1 Corinthians 7: serve where you're called

36:22 New eyes, new ears

37:39 Who's coming on the series

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A Billy Graham Center survey of Gen Z reported that nearly half of respondents agreed that Christian support for Trump has made them less likely to attend church. The survey offers no follow-up on why — whether the objection is to a candidate, to partisanship generally, or to something deeper about how the church understands its own order. James Spencer and Ashish Varma take the finding as a starting point rather than a conclusion.

The conversation reaches back to Constantine and the first council called by an emperor, to Augustine's two cities and the early church's refusal of military service, and to the medieval contest between papacy and throne — arguing that the entanglement of theology and politics is old news, not a recent American invention.

From there: why neither conservatism nor liberalism has room for Christ at its center, why "care for the poor" collapses so quickly into a debate about welfare, what the three people at a Wednesday night prayer meeting say about arguments over prayer in schools, and a reading of Ahaz in Isaiah 7 — a king who had already decided, and dressed the decision in piety.

Go deeper: Christians & Politics

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Chapters (part-two offsets assume the recordings join cleanly at 28:00 — verify against the export):

00:00 The survey, and what it doesn't tell us

03:25 "Politically motivated" — who gets the label

06:28 Constantine, Nicaea, and the entanglement begins

10:09 Sacred social order and the scope of government

12:33 When political procedure starts discipling us

14:54 Care for the poor, and why it becomes welfare

16:48 Augustine's two cities

18:56 The early church and military service

22:12 Bezalel: creativity constrained by a given pattern

25:32 Selective use of Scripture as a rejection of authority

26:30 Conservatism has no place for Christ

28:00 Two sides of the same coin

31:00 Where do our ideals actually come from?

36:00 Reparations, history, and what we're actually called to learn

36:30 Engel v. Vitale and the Wednesday night prayer meeting

39:40 The government has no interest in informing you

42:00 Housing, highways, and the history nobody teaches

46:40 When the platform changed and nobody blinked

48:50 Isaiah 7: Ahaz had already decided

53:20 McGilchrist, Deuteronomy 30, and knowing what we don't

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James Spencer and Ashish Varma return to the diagnoses that narrow the church's vision, this time with fragmentation — the way faithful Christians end up separated from one another not by heresy but by tradition, idiom, and the slow drift of communities that no longer talk across their boundaries.

James opens with a job interview from 2005 where a pastor announced he wanted no one in the role who wouldn't bleed for the Southern Baptist faith. Both men are clear that boundaries have real value; the question is what happens when a community's distinctives quietly become the test of who counts as a Christian at all.

The conversation leans on George Lindbeck's argument that doctrine is second-order — an attempt to make sense of the biblical narrative rather than the thing itself — and on what gets lost when that ordering flips. Along the way: the ecumenical councils and why some councils didn't make the cut, the filioque and the East-West split, Genesis 22 and whether its tension sits in the text or in front of it, and why James has traded getting it right for getting it plausible.

Chapters (approximate, from speaker turns — verify against the final cut):

00:00 What fragmentation is, and what it isn't

02:29 Church history as the place to start

04:25 "Bleed for the Southern Baptist faith"

08:35 When boundaries are legitimate

11:03 The ecumenical councils and what made them ecumenical

13:53 Insularity, and the cost of never crossing traditions

16:24 Doctrinal distinctives become vested interests

21:05 Lindbeck, Vanhoozer, and doctrine as second-order

23:19 East and West: the filioque and the split

25:16 The Reformation and the explosion of denominations

29:37 Inversion: when doctrine climbs on top of the text

31:15 Genesis 22 — "now I know that you fear God"

36:40 Is the tension in the text or in front of it?

41:13 Written in pencil

42:57 Reading the Bible without the systematic categories

47:38 Nobody reads from nowhere

49:18 The cloud: how secondhand narratives harden

54:11 Petitions, feedback loops, and doctrinal echo chambers

55:35 From "getting it right" to "getting it plausible"

57:37 The Nicene Creed as a broad boundary

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Karl Marx and D.L. Moody lived at the same time, watched the same cities industrialize, and asked the same question about the poor. One had a doctorate, wealthy patrons, and a theory of history. The other had about five years of formal schooling and a Bible.

Dr. James Spencer talks with Dr. Gregg Quiggle about Marx and Moody: Two Contemporaries. Two Gospels. Two Tombstones. One Choice., the new book Quiggle co-wrote with Erwin Lutzer for Moody Publishers. They work through where Marx's system runs out of road, particularly its silence on how a state ever relinquishes power, and why that silence traces back to a thin account of the human heart. They also take up Moody's conviction that charity is life on life rather than a check sent across the tracks, the difference between the early church in Acts and state redistribution, and the harder question Quiggle raises near the end: how much traction would any of this have today if evangelical churches had actually taken up Moody's model of hands-on engagement in their own communities?

Go deeper: The Reformation

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Purchase:

Marx and Moody

Bread and Bibles: D.L. Moody's Evangelism and Social Action

 

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James Spencer and Ashish Varma close out the series on narrowing with amplification — Marshall McLuhan's insight that technology extends human capacity, and what that means when the capacity being extended is our tendency to forget God.

The conversation runs from forks and chopsticks to John Deere, from the fig leaves in Genesis to Albert Borgmann's distinction between things and devices: the wood-burning stove that gathers a household versus the thermostat that anonymizes everything behind the heat. Ashish pushes back on the common classroom line that technology is morally neutral, arguing that development and use are different questions and that a technique built for accumulation carries that logic with it. James traces the same tension through David refusing Saul's armor, the warning in Deuteronomy 8 about cisterns you did not dig, and Paul's rebuke of the Corinthian habit of following personalities — a habit our follower counts and platforms have made much easier.

It ends with a hard look at AI image generation, the Minnesota law and the litigation around it, and two Old Testament laws about goring oxen and rooftop parapets that were written to protect people without stopping progress.

Go deeper: Technology & Media

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Subscribe: YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

 

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

James Spencer and Ashish Varma continue the series on what narrows the church's vision with a look at inversion — what happens when an interpretive grid quietly takes over the authority that belongs to Scripture itself.

The conversation moves from the hermeneutical spiral (nobody comes to the text from nowhere) to the passages most of us never work: the command not to destroy fruit trees in Deuteronomy 20, God giving the land little by little in Deuteronomy 7, the instruction not to dispossess Moab in Deuteronomy 2, and the "remember the poor" tagline at the end of Paul's account of the Jerusalem council. James and Ashish ask what those texts do to confident readings of conquest, Christian nationalism and dominionism.

They also walk through how heresy was actually decided — Augustine and Pelagius, Nicaea in 325 and the deliberate loosening of that language in 381 — and why the young-earth reading of Genesis 1 owes more to a social moment than to the text. Plus: Acts 7, Aquinas, and why interpretations should be written in pencil.

Go deeper: Trajectories

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Chapters (approximate, from speaker turns — verify against the final cut):

00:00 What inversion is: when the grid outranks the text

03:22 The hermeneutical spiral — no one reads from nowhere

09:30 Beach muscles: the books we never work

12:11 Deuteronomy 20 and the fruit trees

16:03 Galatians and "remember the poor"

20:11 Deuteronomy 2, dominionism, and the limits question

29:06 Acts 7: Stephen and the opposite error

33:18 How heresy was actually decided 

42:23 Nicaea 325 → 381 and loosening the language

47:15 Genesis 1, young earth, and the social moment

59:40 Brokering gaps, creativity, and writing in pencil

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More than half of American Christians now say they trust AI with their spiritual life. That is a problem worth taking seriously, and it is also the reason Logos built its AI the way it did.

Dr. James Spencer talks with Scott Lindsey, an executive director at Logos, about what happens when a Bible study tool is cut off from the open internet on purpose. Scott walks through the three design commitments behind Logos AI: no connection to the open web, so answers come from commentaries and scholarship rather than blogs and forums; cited sources down to the page number, as a check against hallucinated books and hallucinated authors; and no attempt to model the user and tell him what he wants to hear. He also explains the one thing Logos coders have hard-coded the tool to refuse, which is writing your sermon, your paper, or your Bible study for you.

The back half of the conversation is a live walkthrough of Study Assistant and Factbook, including a look at Genesis 6, 1 through 8 and the questions most of us do not know to ask a text. Video listeners will get more out of that stretch, so if you are on audio, the version on YouTube or GodTube is worth your time.

This episode includes a special offer for Thinking Christian listeners. Logos is providing a free 60-day trial at logos.com/thinkingchristian. The offer closes September 8, 2026, and the link is in the show notes.

logos.com/thinkingchristian (expires Wed, September 8th, 2026)

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Institutions confuse their own survival with the work of God. Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma close the diagnostic arc of this series with transaction, meaning the trade a person or an organization makes when preserving the platform becomes more important than the faithfulness the platform was built for. The anchor text is Jeroboam, who sets up worship at Dan and Bethel not to introduce a different god but to keep his people from traveling south. Varma's reading sharpens it: the question is whether Israel gathers around the presence of God or whether God is expected to gather around Israel.

The conversation turns on how easily success gets read as approval. Spencer flags the language of institutions insisting that God needs them to be what they are now more than ever. Varma answers with Habakkuk, where God raises up Babylon in response to injustice and Babylon is still judged for how it behaves, and extends the point to a mission history in which the gospel genuinely spread through colonial expansion that was itself blessed by churches and was still indefensible. Being used is not the same as being approved. Spencer adds Nebuchadnezzar, named as God's servant and punished seventy years later, and the distinction holds: the exile was deserved, the brutality was not.

What follows is uncomfortable for anyone who works in one of these places. Institutions may end because their course is run, or because they failed, or in spite of their faithfulness, and outcomes do not tell you which. Spencer, who consults with seminaries and Christian colleges, describes leaders trapped by buildings, accreditation, and systems, protecting a vehicle rather than the thing the vehicle was for. Nobody pursues a doctorate in order to preserve an institution. The question both men land on is whether the model has quietly been substituted for the mission. 

Resources

The diagnosis guide: https://www.thinkingchristian.org/about/framework  

Thinking, Fast and Slow, Daniel Kahneman- amazon.com 

Norman Wirzba on creation and nature- amazon.com

Passages referenced: Genesis 6 and 11 and 15, Deuteronomy 8, 1 Kings 12 and 17, Jeremiah, Habakkuk, John 12

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Chapters

0:00 What transaction means

2:24 Jeroboam and the shortcut

3:10 Not a different god

7:18 Why it looked legitimate

10:42 Institutional inertia

13:44 In defense of the word lucky

15:36 Habakkuk and Babylon

19:52 Spread and consequence

20:19 Kahneman on luck

22:43 Nebuchadnezzar as servant

26:50 Two theological problems

31:34 Babel and human capability

33:50 The patience of God

35:51 Institutions that simply end

39:35 Ideology defines the questions

41:34 What higher ed is protecting

43:16 Substituting the vehicle

45:38 Faithful in the moment

47:56 Repentance and repudiation

50:15 Walking beside someone bigger

53:19 What comes next in the series

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