Thinking Christian with Drs. James Spencer and Ashish Varma

What if secularization isn't the decline of religion — but the replacement of one social order with another? In this episode, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma sit down with Dr. Kevin Flatt, professor of history at Redeemer University and author of Secularization, Social Order, and World History, to unpack one of the most provocative frameworks in contemporary Christian thinking: Sacred Social Order.

Kevin introduces the idea that every human culture — until the modern West — has organized its life around something higher than itself. He argues that what we call "religion" is actually a uniquely Western, uniquely modern compartment, while Sacred Social Order is the operating system beneath all of culture. From there, the conversation moves through Christian nationalism, the liberal firmware of Western democracy, Philip Reif's cultural warfare thesis, and why your children's public school is not religiously neutral.

If you've ever sensed that something deeper than a culture war is unfolding — that the ground itself has shifted — this episode gives you the language to name it.

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

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Key Takeaways:

• What "Sacred Social Order" means, and why it's a more accurate lens than "religion" for understanding culture
• Why secular order isn't neutral — it has its own values, telos, and demands on individuals
• How the Christian nationalism debate connects to identical movements in India, Iran, China, and the Muslim world
• Why Philip Reif's "third culture" thesis is partly right — and where Kevin respectfully pushes back
• Why public education is never neutral, and what Christians should really be asking about schools
• Why the gym or the yoga studio may be shaping your theology more than Hinduism is
• The Labubu doll illustration: how misidentifying spiritual threats reveals our blind spots

 

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Is "Cultural Christianity" a bridge to the gospel — or a counterfeit that replaces it? In this episode, Dr. James Spencer (PhD, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School) and Dr. Ashish Varma respond to James Wood's widely-discussed First Things article, In Defense of Cultural Christianity. Together they unpack why calling a civilisation "Christian" when Christ is not its governing authority is not just imprecise — it's theologically catastrophic.

From the Christendom narrative and American civil religion to the habituation of virtue, abortion statistics, and a profound meditation on Pentecost in Acts 2, this episode models what serious Christian thinking looks like when it refuses to foreclose on the full authority of Jesus Christ too soon.

If you've wrestled with Christian nationalism, the "good, true, and beautiful" in culture, or what it means to vote as a follower of Jesus, this conversation is essential listening.

Key Takeaways:

• Why "a culture influenced by Christianity" is an insufficient — and potentially dangerous — definition of "Christian culture"
• The concept of "inappropriate foreclosure": closing off our understanding of the good too soon and using that partial view as if it were complete
• How Robert Bellah's concept of American civil religion explains why Christian language gets co-opted by government without actually conforming people to Christ
• Why the Book of Acts — specifically Pentecost and the Gentile inclusion — fundamentally disrupts any vision of Christianity as a singular cultural program
• The Light Bright metaphor: God is the light source; culture is the peg pattern. Christians must point people behind the pegs to the light itself
• Why policy-driven virtue formation (habituation) has measurable real-world limits — and what the abortion statistics during different administrations actually reveal
• How Dr. Varma's personal experiences — from campus life on 9/11 to being randomly selected in airports — illustrate why Wood's "civilisational benefit" narrative forecloses on the experiences of many believers

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To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

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What does it mean to be human — really? In an age of AI, transhumanism, and relentless technological "progress," Christians are making confident claims about humanity without a solid theological foundation underneath them. In this episode, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma sit down with Dr. Marc Cortez, Dean of the Litfin School of Divinity at Wheaton College, to explore one of the most urgent and underdeveloped doctrines in Christian thought: theological anthropology.

Dr. Cortez challenges the tendency to let the Image of God do all the heavy lifting — and makes a compelling case that the human body is not merely an instrument of the soul, but is fundamental to what it means to be made in God's 

image. Drawing from ancient idol language in Genesis 1, the resurrection, and modern cognitive science, this conversation reorients how Christians should think about embodiment, flourishing, technology, and even taking care of a tree.

If you've ever wondered whether your theology can hold up in a world reshaped by AI, this is the episode to start with.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• The Image of God (Imago Dei) uses ancient idol language — humans are the material means by which God manifests His divine presence in the world
• We cannot think well about AI, transhumanism, sexuality, race, or disability without first building a robust theology of embodiment
• The soul-body hierarchy in Christian history was never meant to devalue the body — but it almost always has
• "Spiritual maturity" and "physical health" belong on the same list — our bifurcation of them reveals a modern, unbiblical blind spot
• Before making confident claims about technology making us "less human," ask the prior question: what does it mean to be human in the first place?
• Christian eschatology (resurrected, transformed bodies) gives us more theological complexity around human enhancement than most people realize
• Dr. Cortez's shorthand for the Image of God: "We are the material means by which God is seeking to manifest His divine presence in a unique way in the world."

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To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

What if the church is trapped in the same invisible loop as an addict — and doesn't know it?

What does addiction science have to do with the body of Christ? More than you'd think. In this follow-up conversation, Dr. James Spencer and Dr. Ashish Varma build on their interview with Dr. David Van Dyke (Wheaton College Marriage & Family Therapy) to explore how systems thinking unlocks a deeper understanding of church health, Christian formation, and why faithful people keep repeating the same destructive patterns.

Drawing on Kent Dunnington's groundbreaking work Virtue and Addiction, the conversation reveals that the opposite of virtue isn't simply vice — it's addiction. Both are habit-formed, systems-shaped realities. The hosts then turn this lens on the church: from organizational cultures stuck in toxic loops, to single-issue political formation, to Pharaoh's fear-driven decision-making in Exodus — and what it all reveals about how invisible systems shape us without our awareness.

This is a rare conversation: calm, theologically rigorous, and genuinely challenging for anyone who wants to think clearly about what it means to be the body of Christ in the world today.

Key Takeaways:

• Why addiction is the true opposite of virtue — not vice — according to philosopher Kent Dunnington
• How invisible systems shape our habits, reactions, and identities without our awareness
• Why single-issue political engagement may be forming us into political animals rather than disciples
• The Pharaoh principle: how fear-driven, system-bound thinking causes us to miss what God is doing
• The Ephesus problem: the danger of being doctrinally right but missionally withdrawn
• What Jeremiah 7 and Acts 7 reveal about mistaking second-order goods (doctrine, temples) for first-order realities
• What does a multi-denominational coffee shop Bible study teach the church about unity?

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To read James's article on this topic, check out his author page on Christianity.com.

📢 Stay Connected & Keep Growing!

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe to Thinking Christian, so you never miss an insightful conversation!

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Most people think of mental health as an individual problem. Dr. David J. Van Dyke — professor, marriage and family therapist, and co-host of the With You podcast — thinks that's exactly the wrong frame. In this episode, Dr. Spencer and Ashish sit down with David to unpack how family systems therapy fundamentally reorients the way we see suffering, relationships, and even the gospel itself.

From a rebellious teenager who kept losing possessions until there was nothing left to take, to Paul's language of perseverance in suffering, David draws a sweeping line between relational science and redemptive theology. He argues the entire arc of Scripture — from the intimacy of Eden to the rupture of the Fall to the systemic intervention of the Incarnation — is a relational rupture-and-repair story. And that changes everything about how we do therapy, parenting, church leadership, and discipleship.

If you've ever wondered why "doing everything right" doesn't guarantee good outcomes, why moral failure in a pastor becomes a congregational crisis, or what Phil Jackson and the Book of Job have in common — this conversation is for you.

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Subscribe: YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Key Takeaways

• Systems, not individuals, carry symptoms. Depression, anxiety, and misbehaviour often serve a function within the relational system — not just the person.
• The therapist's real question is "how," not "why." Asking why digs into individual meaning; asking how reveals the relational dance keeping a system stuck.
• The Incarnation as systemic intervention. Christ didn't just save individuals — He changed the rules of the game. Second-order change.
• Resilience grows from optimal frustration, not comfort. Numbing pain also numbs joy. The goal is to come alongside suffering, not remove it.
• Isolation is poison to the human soul. An embodied, safe community is the prerequisite for every hard conversation the church needs to have.
• Love your spouse as an act of worship. Not a transaction. Not what they deserve. As worship — and it rewires the entire relational dynamic.
• Western individualism is a therapy problem too. In Illinois, 1 in 15 licensed mental health providers is a marriage and family therapist. The rest are trained to see individuals. The relational blind spot is systemic.

 

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Is Christian parenting a strict formula to execute, or an art form to practice?

In a culture that bombards Christian parents with exhaustive 10-step checklists and uniform blueprints for family life, it is remarkably easy to accidentally provoke or exasperate our children. This week, Dr. James Spencer, PhD and Dr. Ashish Varma return to the podcast to look at fatherhood through the lens of scriptural wisdom rather than cultural anxieties.

True biblical wisdom doesn't produce recipe-followers; it forms adaptive disciples. Pulling from the book of Proverbs, the Sermon on the Mount, and the letters of Paul, James and Ashish discuss why parenting requires holy improvisation—a pastoral sensitivity that allows a father to receive his children exactly as they are and adjust his training to fit their unique design.

In this episode, we discuss:

1. The "Chopped" Mystery Basket: Viewing your child's distinct traits as raw ingredients that require expert, customized care.
2. The Education Fit: An honest, non-judgmental look at public vs. private schooling, and why identical principles led both hosts to entirely different local schooling choices for their kids.
3. Healthy Friction vs. Exasperation: Learning how far to push a child to build resilience without crossing the line into crushing their spirit.
4. The Long Game: Moving past the urge to "fix" every behavioral issue instantly, focusing instead on building the profound, long-term trust your children will need well into adulthood.

Form your character, drop the rigid checklists, and learn to enjoy the beautiful, improvisational calling of being a dad.

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Subscribe: YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

The Southern Baptist Convention just passed a constitutional amendment restricting women in ministry — and the implications reach far beyond the SBC. In this episode of Thinking Christian, Dr. James Spencer and co-host Ashish Varma sit down with Dr. Beth Allison Barr, historian, Baylor professor, and author of The Making of Biblical Womanhoodand Becoming the Pastor's Wife, to break down what happened, why it matters, and where evangelical Christianity may be heading.

Beth traces the amendment's path from 2022 to its overwhelming passage in 2025, explains why Al Mohler's role was decisive, and unpacks the striking inconsistency at the heart of the SBC's position: the same ecclesiology used to avoid accountability for sexual abuse was set aside the moment women's roles came to a vote.

We also go deeper into the historical forces behind this moment, from the fundamentalist-modernist controversy to decades of seminary curriculum that have shaped an entire generation of Christians who have never encountered a different reading of scripture. If you've wondered how complementarianism moves toward biblical patriarchy, Beth explains exactly how that progression works and why it isn't accidental.

The conversation also takes up the coordination problem: the SBC has Desiring God, the Gospel Coalition, and institutional momentum built over decades. Those committed to keeping these conversations open and honest largely do not. That gap matters, and we name it directly.

Topics covered: SBC constitutional amendment, women in ministry, complementarianism vs. egalitarianism, Al Mohler, biblical womanhood, evangelical polarization, church history, Beth Allison Barr

Go deeper: Unmanly

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Subscribe: YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Check out Beth's Substack at bethallisonbarr.substack.com, and her books: The Making of Biblical Womanhood and Becoming the Pastor's Wife.

 

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

What does it actually mean to be a male disciple of Jesus? And why does so much of what gets called "biblical masculinity" look more like cultural bravado than anything Jesus modeled or taught? In this episode, I'm joined by Dr. Kutter Callaway, associate professor of theology and psychology at Fuller Seminary and author of Theology for Psychology and Counseling, to dig into those questions.

We talk through how we got here, because this didn't just appear out of nowhere. There's a history, a response to the feminist movement, the Promise Keepers era, and now a political and technological moment that's made a certain vision of masculinity almost impossible to avoid. The tragedy is that the answer to real male loneliness has been, in so many corners of the church, a kind of machismo that has very little to do with the Jesus of the Gospels.

We get into how certain exegetes have tried to make Jesus a model of masculine strength in ways the text doesn't support, the structural inconsistencies in how the SBC has applied its ecclesiology, and why discipleship, not dominance, is the frame we actually need. Kutter's closing point, that we need to ask not "what's wrong with you" but "what happened to you," is something worth sitting with.

Go deeper: Unmanly

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Subscribe: YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Check out Kutter's work at kuttercallaway.com and his Substack, The Wrong Kind of Christian, at kuttercallaway.substack.com.

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

What if Old Testament laws aren’t outdated rules to follow, but a deep, tangible story we are invited to practice?

In this episode of Thinking Christian, host James Spencer is joined once again by Rebekah Josberger and Renee Duffy from the Bible Unbranded podcast to tackle one of the most debated topics in biblical study: how to interpret Old Testament law through a theological framework. 

Using the command of the Sabbath as their core anchor ⚓, the team unpacks how the ancient laws in Deuteronomy and Exodus are designed to reveal the incomparable character of God rather than construct a human utopia. Together, they build essential "theological guardrails" to avoid the common trap of "time snobbery"—the evolutionary fallacy that modern believers have simply moved past ancient struggles. 

From navigating the tension of Christological readings to contrasting the "shadow and substance" themes in the Book of Hebrews, this conversation offers deep theological exploration paired with a refreshing framework for how the church can embody sacred order in a chaotic social landscape today.

What You’ll Discover in This Episode:

• The Guardrail of "Time Snobbery": Why modern culture isn’t fundamentally more advanced than ancient biblical communities when it comes to understanding God.

• Shadows vs. Substance: How the imagery of Hebrews bridges old revelations with post-resurrection realities without diminishing the Old Testament.

• Law as Practiced Story: Shift your perspective from rigid legalism to an active, physical rehearsal of God's character.

• The Convergence of Creation and Exodus: Unpacking why Exodus links the Sabbath to creation, while Deuteronomy anchors it in liberation.

Go deeper: Trajectories

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Subscribe: YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.

Is the Old Testament Law a heavy burden to be avoided, or a guide to the heart of the Lawgiver? 

In this installment of our crossover series with the Bible Unbranded podcast, Dr. James Spencer, Renee Duffy, and Dr. Rebekah Josberger tackle the common misconceptions surrounding Biblical Law. Far from being an obsolete set of rules, the law—and specifically the Sabbath command—reveals deep theological truths about who God is and how He cares for His creation.

In this episode, we discuss:

• Rehabilitating the Law: Moving past the idea that the Law is "passe" to see it as a vital revelation of God's character.

• The Logic of the Sabbath: Exploring why a "day of rest" is actually a theological statement about God’s sovereignty and provision.

• Trust vs. Effort: How the Sabbath forces us to confront our own "limitless" desire to provide for ourselves instead of trusting God. 

• The Beauty of Boundaries: Why God’s instructions are designed to protect and bless us, helping us fall in love with Him more deeply.

• Practical Rhythm: Navigating what it looks like to find rest and "Sabbath moments" in a modern, 24/7 world. 

Stop seeing the Law as a list to check off and start seeing it as an invitation to rest in the Creator. Join us as we explore the life-giving nature of God's commands. 

Go deeper: Trajectories

Thinking Christian is hosted by Dr. James Spencer, president of the D. L. Moody Center and author of Digital Discernment (InterVarsity Press). Each conversation reads the Bible as the final authority for life and faith, questioning the assumptions of our culture, even our Christian culture, so that we don't settle for a narrower vision than God's word offers.

Unsettling convention. Cultivating conviction.
Episodes, articles, and questions: thinkingchristian.org
About James Spencer: thinkingchristian.org/james
The Thinking Christian Framework: thinkingchristian.org/framework
Order Digital Discernment: amazon.com

Subscribe: YouTube · Apple Podcasts · Spotify

Advertising and partnership inquiries: [email protected]

Discover more Christian podcasts at lifeaudio.com and inquire about advertising opportunities at lifeaudio.com/contact-us.