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What if understanding both sides of the veil — pre-mortal and post-mortal — is the key to making sense of mortality? Brent L. Top, retired BYU professor, author of more than 20 books, and sealer in the St. George Temple, returns to the podcast to teach two revolutionary doctrines of the Restoration: first, that we are literal offspring of heavenly parents with what he calls "celestial DNA" — spiritual capacities activated and refined by the Holy Ghost as we live the gospel; and second, that the work for the dead means every one of Heavenly Father's children will be given every opportunity to hear the fullness of the gospel and receive its ordinances, whether in this life or the next. "All are within the reach of pardoning mercy," Joseph Smith taught — a doctrine that, as Brother Top says, "is well calculated to enlarge the understanding and sustain the soul under troubles, difficulties, and distresses." Drawing on the three-act-play metaphor of Elder Quentin L. Cook, he teaches that walking into mortality without understanding pre-mortality and post-mortality is like arriving at the second act of a play with no knowledge of the first or third — and that the plan of salvation, when seen whole, answers the questions that otherwise make life seem arbitrary or cruel: why little children die, why people are born into vastly different circumstances, why faithful parents lose children to disbelief. As a sealer, he shares the deeply personal insight he calls "the as-if principle": in the sealing ordinance, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, all the as-ifs of mortality — all wrongs, all handicaps, all injustices — are made as if they had never been. He testifies that sealing power is not only for the next life: it infuses marriages and families with a reclaiming, healing, strengthening power right now. President Joseph F. Smith taught that when God sends a messenger to any person, it is a family member — and Brother Top's witness is that those on both sides of the veil are working for our salvation, that our rescue attempts go beyond this life, and that the story is never finished being told.

Q: What are the "two veils" in LDS doctrine?
A: There is a veil of forgetfulness separating us from our pre-mortal life, and a veil separating us from those who have died. Brent L. Top teaches that both are veils, not concrete walls — and that understanding what happens on each side is essential to making sense of mortality. Elder Quentin L. Cook compared the plan of salvation to a three-act play: without the first act (pre-mortality) and the third act (the spirit world and resurrection), the second act (mortality) seems arbitrary and purposeless.

Q: What is the "as if" principle in the temple sealing?
A: In the sealing of children to parents, a phrase declares that the ordinance operates "as if" certain conditions had been met. Brother Top, a sealer in the St. George Temple, teaches that it is the Savior who makes all the "as ifs" of mortality possible: through the Atonement, a sinner can be made as if they never sinned, a person born with disabilities can be made as if those had never existed. The sealing links families to the Atonement of Jesus Christ so that all wrongs, injustices, and conditions of mortality are ultimately resolved.

Q: Does the power of a temple sealing help families in this life, or only in the next?
A: Both — and Brother Top emphasizes the "here and now" dimension. He teaches that sealing power infuses marriages and families with a reclaiming, healing, strengthening power in mortality: "Why I keep my covenants is not just so that I can be with my beloved wife and family in the next life, but that I can have the marriage and family I need in this life." He compares it to the gift of the Holy Ghost — the ordinance confers a power that those without it "don't have quite the same way."

Q: When God sends a messenger, is it always a family member?
A: President Joseph F. Smith taught that when God sees fit to send a message or a messenger to any person, it is a family member. Brother Top connects this to both veils: we have ancestors who knew us in the pre-mortal world, who are watching over us now from the spirit world, and who are — in his words — "rooting for us" from both sides. He shares Oscar McConkie Sr.'s final words to his children: "I am going now into the spirit world, but I will not stop loving you. I will not stop praying for you. I will not stop working for your salvation."

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What if thinning of the veil experiences weren't unusual — but a normal part of how you grew up? Kerstin Ngatuakana  is a New Zealand Māori Latter-day Saint who didn't realize until adulthood that others didn't grow up hearing about ancestors' dreams and visions at the dinner table. In this interview, she shares a lifetime of spiritual manifestations — from seeing a girl beyond the veil at age four in the Cook Islands, to her father-in-law appearing in a dream to approve her marriage (saying "Look after my boy" — the exact phrase her husband confirmed he used), to her grandfather appearing to her in the celestial room of the Hamilton Temple and asking her to seal him to her grandmother. Kirsten testifies of the unique spiritual gifts of Polynesian people, whose cultural traditions of ancestral connection prepared them to embrace the gospel from the earliest missionaries: "When missionaries came, the Māori were already having visions and dreams. They were ready." Her temple service journey deepened when the Lord told her, "There is so much more I need to teach you" — leading her from family history research into daily service in the temple, where she witnesses miracles: a mother finally choosing to be sealed to the husband she once hated, for the sake of their son; families surprised with sealings they didn't know were possible; and the day she was asked to stand as proxy mother for nine men doing sealings — the very day her own heart was heavy over her sons' mission visas — and heard mothers on the other side of the veil, and saw them with their sons. She also shares a powerful revelatory name experience: after praying for weeks, the name "Annabelle" came in the night. Line upon line, the last name followed — Brown. On FamilySearch, she found Bessie Annabelle Brown, born in Los Angeles, related to her family, with no ordinance work done. At the completion of Bessie's endowment, Kirsten heard clearly: "Thank you, thank you, thank you."

"I didn't realize others didn't have it until later. For us, this was normal. Dreams, visions — this was how we grew up." — Kirsten Ngatuakana

Q: Do Polynesian Latter-day Saints have special spiritual gifts?
A: Kirsten testifies that in Polynesian culture, dreams, visions, and ancestral connection are a normal part of life — not extraordinary. "I didn't realize others didn't have it until later." Her mother, a convert at 18, grew up hearing her own mother (not a member of the Church) speak of dreams and visions. When early missionaries came to New Zealand, many Māori people were already having visions that prepared them for the gospel — including seeing people who would "eat with you in your homes" and "raise their arms to the square."

Q: Can I receive an ancestor's name through prayer and revelation?
A: Yes — Kirsten prayed for weeks for a name after hearing about the practice on this podcast. In the night, the name "Annabelle" came to her, with a specific spelling. Weeks later, the last name "Brown" came clearly. She found Bessie Annabelle Brown on FamilySearch — a relative with no temple work done. At the completion of the endowment, Kirsten heard: "Thank you, thank you, thank you." She later connected with a researcher in Colorado working the same line, and testified to him about receiving the name in a dream — something he had never heard of.

Q: Can deceased loved ones appear in dreams to confirm family decisions?
A: Kirsten shares two experiences: her husband's deceased father appeared in his mother's dream to confirm their marriage — after her husband had specifically prayed for it. And her grandfather appeared to her in the celestial room of the Hamilton Temple and asked her to seal him to her grandmother — work Kirsten's mother had not yet arranged. Both prompted immediate action and brought peace.

Q: How does temple service change your relationship with the Savior?
A: Kirsten testifies that daily temple service has deepened her love for Christ by teaching her about Him through the people she serves. On a day her heart was heavy over her own sons, she was asked to stand as proxy mother for nine men doing sealings — and saw the mothers on the other side of the veil with their sons. "Who cares about some stupid visa? This is eternal, significant stuff." She adds: "A friend said to me, 'It wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.' She goes, 'That's because you go to the temple every day.'"

📚 SOURCES REFERENCED IN THIS EPISODE
Elder Richard G. Scott on claiming "both parts of the blessing"
Elder Anderson on the law of witnesses (BYU-Idaho)
Elder Renlund on sealing and healing power

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Can little children really see the spirit world? In this episode of Thinning of the Veil, two Latter-day Saint (LDS) viewers share sacred experiences of loved ones drawing near from the other side of the veil. Elaine Peterson tells how, after her 14-year-old daughter Charity died of ALS, her three-year-old son Josh saw angels around her, said goodbye to a departed grandparent, saw his sister sitting on the stairs, and even saw the Savior in their home — a witness that the veil is not completely closed to little children. Brent Edwards shares a lifetime of thinning of the veil experiences: his grandfather appearing the night he died, ancestors asking in dreams for their temple work to be done, and names placed in his mind that led him straight to family members who still needed their ordinances. Host Tia Smith shares these stories as a testimony that revelation and parting the veil are not reserved for prophets — God is not a respecter of persons, and these gifts can come to anyone engaged in the gathering of Israel through temple and family history work.

Q: Can children see deceased loved ones or the spirit world?
A: In this episode, Elaine Peterson shares that after her daughter Charity's death, her young son Josh saw angels around his sister, saw departed grandparents, and saw the Savior in their home. She was taught in a priesthood blessing that the veil is not completely closed to little children — a pattern echoed in 3 Nephi, where children are shown heavenly things.

Q: Do deceased ancestors really ask for their temple work to be done?
A: Brent Edwards describes several dreams and promptings in which ancestors urged him to complete their temple ordinances — including a fifth great-grandfather, Christian Benner, who said not enough was being done, and a grandfather who asked why his work wasn't finished. Each prompting led him to real names on FamilySearch whose ordinances were still undone.

Q: Are thinning of the veil experiences only for certain special or spiritual people?
A: Tia Smith teaches that they are not. She testifies that God is not a respecter of persons, and that revelation and experiences of the veil parting can come to anyone gathering Israel through temple and family history work — even though they come in different ways for different people.

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What does Elijah's showdown with the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel have to do with temple work and baptism for the dead? In this doctrinal Thinning of the Veil episode, host Tia Smith walks through 1 Kings 18 and shows how, thousands of years ago, Elijah laid out a pattern that echoes almost detail-for-detail in Latter-day Saint (LDS) temples today. As the prophet promised to return and restore the sealing power, Elijah's life was meant to foreshadow the gathering of Israel in the last days — and Tia traces that pattern through the sacred setting of Mount Carmel (kept green by constant dew), the altar rebuilt with 12 stones "according to the number of the tribes," the ox/bullock sacrifice, the water poured three times, and the fire that fell from heaven. She connects each piece to the baptismal font resting on 12 oxen, the symbolism of baptism by immersion and the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost, and Joseph Smith's rejoicing that "as the dews of Carmel, so shall the knowledge of God descend" (D&C 128:19). The result is a striking testimony that God is in the details — and that Elijah's ancient question, "How long halt ye between two opinions?", is the very invitation extended to us today. If you love deep temple doctrine and the symbolism of the gathering of Israel, this episode is for you.

Q: How does the Old Testament story of Elijah on Mount Carmel relate to Latter-day Saint temple work?
A: In this episode, host Tia Smith teaches that Elijah's confrontation with the prophets of Baal (1 Kings 18) is a pattern foreshadowing latter-day temple and baptism-for-the-dead work — from the sacred setting and the altar rebuilt with 12 stones, to the sacrifice, the water, and the fire from heaven. As the prophet promised to restore the sealing power, Elijah's life echoes the gathering of Israel we participate in today.

Q: What do the 12 oxen beneath a temple baptismal font represent?
A: They represent the 12 tribes of Israel, facing outward toward the four quarters of the earth. Tia connects this to Elijah rebuilding the altar with 12 stones "according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob," teaching that the covenant seed of Abraham was foreordained to gather Israel and redeem their kindred dead.

Q: What is the meaning of the "dews of Carmel" and the water and fire in Elijah's sacrifice?
A: Tia teaches that Mount Carmel stayed green from constant dew, which Doctrine and Covenants 128:19 ties to the knowledge of God descending "as the dews of Carmel." She reads the water poured three times (four barrels times three equals twelve) and the fire that consumed the offering as symbols of baptism by immersion and the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost — the same pattern we experience in the temple.

Q: What did Joseph Smith teach about the urgency of baptism for the dead?
A: The episode shares Joseph Smith's teaching that Saints who neglect the work for their deceased relatives do so "at the peril of their own salvation," along with his counsel to gather and redeem the dead before the day of the Lord. Tia frames Elijah's question — "How long halt ye between two opinions?" — as the same choice set before every Latter-day Saint today.

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Did the signers of the Declaration of Independence really appear to a prophet and ask for their temple work to be done? In this Thinning of the Veil episode, host Tia Smith tells the remarkable account of Wilford Woodruff in the St. George Temple in 1877 — where, he testified, the spirits of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and other eminent men and women came to him over two days and two nights and asked why their ordinances had not yet been performed. Tia sets the stage with Brigham Young's stirring plea at the temple's dedication (he died just months later), shares the history of the St. George Temple as the first place Latter-day Saints (LDS) could perform all temple ordinances for the dead, and highlights Lucy Bigelow Young — the temple's first matron, known for faith and a gift of healing — who was baptized for Martha Washington and dozens of eminent women. Drawing on the eyewitness testimony of temple recorder James G. Bleak, the episode presents this as a powerful witness that those beyond the veil accept the gospel in the spirit world and wait on us to complete their saving ordinances. Tia's message: this same work parts the veil for ordinary members today, and the day will come when our own ancestors either ask why we didn't act — or thank us for the work we did. If you love temple history and the doctrine of the gathering of Israel, this episode is for you.

Q: Did the signers of the Declaration of Independence really appear to Wilford Woodruff?
A: Wilford Woodruff testified that in the St. George Temple in 1877, the spirits of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, along with other eminent men and women, came to him over two days and two nights and asked why their temple work had not been done. He then arranged for their baptisms and endowments, describing them as among "the best spirits the God of heaven could find."

Q: Why is the St. George Temple historically significant for Latter-day Saints?
A: The St. George Temple was the first Latter-day Saint temple dedicated in Utah and the oldest still in operation. It was also the first house of the Lord where all temple ordinances — including endowments for the deceased — could be performed for the dead, which is why the work for the signers could finally be completed there.

Q: Who was Lucy Bigelow Young, and what was her role in this experience?
A: Lucy Bigelow Young was the first matron of the St. George Temple, remembered for her faith, humility, and a gift of healing. She was among the first women to perform endowments for the dead in this dispensation, and in this account she went to the font to be baptized for Martha Washington and dozens of other eminent women of history.

Q: What does the Wilford Woodruff experience teach about our responsibility for temple work?
A: The episode teaches that those in the spirit world who have accepted the gospel are waiting — even expecting — the living to complete their saving ordinances. Tia testifies that this work "parts the veil" faster than almost any other, and that we each stand in a position, like Wilford Woodruff and Lucy Bigelow Young, to receive revelation as we do the work of the gathering of Israel.

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What if someone on the other side of the veil is waiting for you to notice them?
In this episode, Tia sits down with Ricelli Mordecai, who shares the remarkable story of a dream that changed everything — her best friend, who had passed away, appeared to her asking for her temple work to be done. What happened after Ricelli chose to act on that dream is nothing short of a miracle, and a powerful reminder that those who have passed are still watching over — and waiting on — us.
This conversation is also a masterclass in how to recognize personal revelation — Ricelli and Tia dig into the many ways the gift of revelation shows up in our lives: through dreams, promptings, feelings, and quiet nudges we sometimes overlook. Whether you're hoping to better understand your own dreams and promptings, or you're simply curious what it looks like when heaven reaches across the veil to guide us, this episode offers real, faith-building answers.
If you've ever wondered whether your loved ones on the other side are aware of your covenant work — or how to better recognize personal revelation in your own life — this episode is for you.


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We are living in a world where there is a constant stream of negativity and chaos. Anxiety is the new normal for most. There are a myriad of treatments and opinions about how anxiety should be treated. There is help in the Gathering of Israel that goes unnoticed by most. Jordan Liston testifies that as he gathers Israel and seeks to help those on the other side of the veil through prayer, he has found that his anxiety has lessened and is more manageable as the veil parts in behalf of his ancestors.  The Gathering of Israel is an outward turning of hearts, which shifts the focus from oneself to those who cannot help themselves. This turning allows the power of Jesus Christ to strengthen our own mental and emotional challenges, through the priesthood power of our ancestors. We help them and they in turn help us.

YouTube: Relief From Anxiety through Revelatory Experiences Video: https://youtu.be/zHf5B9MAT2A

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 In this Gathering Academy episode, Colette testifies of a recent Thinning of the Veil experience as this ancestor was found in a most surprising way. She also covers the new QR code feature on FamilySearch that can make lost usernames and passwords a thing of the past. Do you a have GEDCOM file? FamilySearch has made it easier than ever to transfer that information into the Tree System. Colette wraps up with some easy tips to make your family history more enjoyable.

YouTube:  Miracles, Missteps, and Missing Branches Video: https://youtu.be/XXB9dWtlW_E

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Solomon's temple was truly a sight to behold. For the children of Israel who lived during that time it became a permanent house of worship that reminded them that the divine presence was ever near. The symbols that were purposefully carved into the building itself can teach us about the Savior, Jesus Christ, and our role as Gatherers in the last days.  Even the most hidden symbols of Solomon's Temple point to the glorious fulfilling of the Abrahamic Covenant in our day in latter day temples. What can we learn about ourselves in the pillars and Palm Trees that adorned the temple of Solomon? Much more than you probably think.

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Are you overwhelmed with a box full of family history information that needs to be put in FamilySearch? Are you confused on the new policies about temple reservations on Family Search? In this episode, Colette, addresses these specific concerns and teaches easier ways to stay on top of overwhelming piles of treasured information and how to navigate the changing policies of reserving temple names. 

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