Trust Me: Cults, Extreme Belief, and Manipulation

This week’s guest is Makelle Bistline, who grew up in the polygamist sect the FLDS and became one of the wives of self-proclaimed prophet Samuel Bateman–ultimately playing a crucial role in bringing him down. Makelle did not appear in the Netflix series Trust Me, which follows how Lola’s mom got him arrested, but her involvement in the takedown was instrumental. In part one, she reveals what it was like growing up under Warren Jeffs’ teachings, falling asleep to recordings of his voice, and watching Sam Bateman claim to be the new prophet.

Makelle explains how secretly listening to Taylor Swift helped her question what she’d been taught about the outside world, the ways she resisted Bateman’s control, and how escalating pressure and being sent away eventually led her to become his 22nd wife. Next week, she’ll return to share how she began sneakily communicating with Lola’s mom and passing evidence to authorities.

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This week, the girls are joined again by Felicia Rosario, survivor of the cult at Sarah Lawrence, led by a man named Larry Ray. Today Felicia, who previously came on the show along with fellow survivor Daniel Levin, explains how Larry drew her in over time by love bombing her, winning over her social circle first, and using his genuinely powerful connections to give himself a mystique and an air of authority.

Felicia shares more about Larry’s crimes and abuse, what made her decide to finally finally decide to leave, and the life she’s built for herself since—as an expert witness testifying about coercion. She explains some of the factors one can point to in court to establish that someone has been under coercive control. They also discuss the Cornell case and how common it is for people to behave unexpectedly when they’ve just experienced something traumatic.

SOURCES

Felicia Rosario Consulting

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This week, author and historian Stephen Kinzer joins Trust Me to discuss his book, Poisoner in Chief, and its subject: chemist Sidney Gottlieb, who led mind control experiments in the CIA’s Project MKUltra. Stephen explains who Gottlieb was and how he came to lead this harrowing attempt to control the human mind, what Operation Paperclip was (the US saved doctor-torturers from Nazi Germany and Japan and gave them jobs), and how the CIA began experimenting on subjects in other countries in horrific ways—all in the name of patriotism and “fighting communism.”

Stephen describes Gottlieb’s obsession with LSD and how the CIA began conducting drug experiments on inmates, people in psychiatric institutions, and other unwitting folks. He discusses the hunt for the perfect mind control tactic, how the word “brainwashing” can’t be separated from the Red Scare, and how none of the experiments were fruitful.

Plus, whether Gottlieb experienced any remorse later in life, and how we have the CIA to thank for the explosion of LSD onto the American scene (and, ironically, the major role it played in the anti-war movement).

SOURCES

Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search for Mind Control

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This week is part two with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, who sued the Jesus Christians, aka the “kidney cult,” after they recruited her daughter. Last week, Renee explained how she realized her daughter Ellicia’s communication was being controlled, and this week she picks back up on Ellicia’s mysterious whereabouts around the world--going wherever the group sent her, cutting off emotional contact, and virtually disappearing from Renee's life.

Renee shares how the group’s leader, Dave McKay, began accusing her of being a Satan worshipper, which was used to demonize her and keep Ellicia away. Renee shares how she’s connected with other parents, what she learned about some of the things her daughter has been through (including their highly punitive “grievance” system), and how Renee finally took Dave McKay to court.

SOURCES

Recover From Coercive Control

SOCCHG

CIFS Australia

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This week is part 1 with advocate and therapist Renee Spencer, whose daughter was recruited into the Jesus Christians: a group commonly referred to as the “kidney cult” for their practice of encouraging members to donate their kidneys to strangers. Renee shares about her and her daughter Ellicia’s close relationship, how Ellicia suddenly stopped contacting Renee, and why Renee tried to be accepting of her daughter’s choices–even while slowly learning that Ellicia had joined a mysterious group of traveling Christians and was being isolated from her former life.

She explains how Ellicia was initially recruited through YouTube, how Ellicia told Renee she was engaged to someone from the group after just a couple of months, and the minimal contact Renee was allowed when she visited. They discuss what she learned about Ellicia’s new husband Joseph, the whipping “trials” the group’s leader had organized to teach Joseph’s family a lesson, and how Renee discovered that her daughter’s communication had been far more controlled than she even realized.

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We’re back with twins Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known as Mothermary. In part 2 this week they’ll talk about how Elyse got fed up with being obsessive about sin all the time, which led her to hitch a ride out of Idaho and into Salt Lake City. Living with former Mormons, she explains how that’s where her worldview began to crack–especially after she attended Pride for the first time.

Meanwhile, Larena talks about how her marriage–and her time in the church–ended, and the girls will share how they began their journeys working as professional dominatrixes. They discuss the importance of boundaries and communication, the parallels and differences between power dynamics in BDSM and religion, and whether someone in a religion that insists they be submissive can truly enter the mindset called “sub space.”

Plus, all about their band, and what their music means to them.

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This week is part 1 with musicians, identical twins, and former Mormons turned dominatrixes Larena and Elyse Wynn, also known by their band name Mothermary. The girls share what it was like being raised in the LDS church, and how “Montana Mormons” may have had a more fear-based culture than Mormons in other parts of the country. They’ll talk about going to BYU Idaho, and how after having sex with her boyfriend—one of the worst sins you could commit in the church—Larena was told by her bishop that she needed to marry her boyfriend in order to not get kicked out of college.

Elyse describes having a similar experience in high school, and how both were told by their bishop to read a book called The Miracle of Forgiveness in order to repent, which basically told them that all the things that make you human are wrong. Elyse explains how she became obsessed with not sinning, why it made her so depressed she couldn’t eat, and how she realized she needed to get out of there.

In part two next week, Larena tells the story of how she got out of her marriage, and how they both came to work as dominatrixes.

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This week’s guest is psychology researcher and lecturer Dr. John Hunter, joining the show to talk about intensive self-help seminars–known as “large group awareness trainings,” or LGATs–and the emotions they produce. He shares about his personal experience with bipolar disorder and hypomania, and how the LGAT his employer sent him to seemed to induce a state of hypomania in its attendees.

John explains his dopamine hypothesis, why these trainings feel so euphoric at the end (and how rarely people tend to genuinely transform in the long-term), and how some folks have even entered prolonged manic states after attending an LGAT. But also, as always: how it’s not completely black and white.

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This week, the girls are joined by Laci Mosley, comedian, actress, and host of the Scam Goddess podcast and TV show (and author of Scam Goddess the book), to talk about the many types of frauds that are out there, from romance scams to financial fraud to Munchausen by proxy. She talks about what makes us susceptible to scams, and how much overlap there is between the way that scams and cults operate.

Laci shares about the time she got scammed by a psychic in an airport, how even the most smart, successful people get swindled, and the lessons we can all take from scammers to be a little scammier–but like in a good way.

SOURCES

Scam Goddess

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This week, Meagan and Lola sit down with Michelle McPhee, investigative reporter and host of podcast Kingdom of Fraud, to discuss how Jacob Kingston, a fundamentalist Mormon from the secretive polygamist sect known as the Kingston clan, or the “Order,” teamed up with a shadowy Armenian tycoon nicknamed “the Lion” to commit one of the largest fraud schemes in U.S. history.

She’ll explain how Jacob’s drive to prove himself as one of over 100 siblings within the insular Kingston hierarchy got him in over his head with Levon Termendzhyan, his unlikely partner in the massive scheme they embarked on: it involved renewable fuel tax credits, international money laundering, powerful political connections, and billions of dollars. Plus, how they finally got caught–with the help of a couple of Trust Me’s previous guests.

SOURCES

Kingdom of Fraud

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