In this episode, Robyn is joined by Michael Diana, a PhD student in Counseling Psychology and the youngest member of Barb’s academic lineage. They come together in the wake of Barb’s recent injury to reflect on what it really means to let healers receive the care they so often give.

Together, they explore themes of presence, spiritual bypassing, helper dynamics, and how to discern when we’re being helpful versus performative. The episode closes with a Loving-Kindness Meditation dedicated to Barb—and to every healer learning how to rest.

In This Episode:

• What happens when the healer is laid out
• Presence vs. performance in support
• Healing dynamics in high-functioning helpers
• Why some people can’t stop fixing—even at the bedside
• Bioenergetic coherence and the ripple effects of nervous system calm
• Personal stories of checking in, holding back, and choosing discernment over urgency
• Loving-Kindness Meditation (for Barb and beyond)

Guest:

👨‍🎓 Michael Diana

PhD candidate in Counseling Psychology at the University of Kansas

Instagram: @michaeldiana

Mentions & Resources:

• Barb (our beloved co-host and mentor)
• Research on Loving-Kindness Meditation and trauma recovery
• Transcendental Meditation and Washington D.C. crime rate study
• Power of prayer and field coherence in healing
• 
  

Calls to Action:

📝 Subscribe to Two Shrinks on the Farm

💬 Leave a review and share this episode

📧 Subscribe to Robyn’s LinkedIn newsletter: The Work Beyond Work

📲 Follow Robyn on TikTok: @dr.robynmckay

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Recorded from a perch above the white sand dunes of Lake Michigan, this episode is part love letter to Camp Miniwanca, part reckoning with the state of academia, and full-bodied remembrance of what true freedom feels like—beyond the metrics, meetings, and masked brilliance.

Dr. Robyn McKay and Dr. Barbara Kerr drop in from Professor Camp, where each summer, faculty from across the country gather to reconnect with the parts of themselves that don’t fit on a CV.

In this episode, we talk about:

• The paradox of intellect in America—why professors are resented and revered
• Barb’s new book, The Psychology of Liberty, and what we’ve lost in our cultural definition of “freedom”
• Time poverty and the myth of virtuous overwork
• The heartbreak of masking your brilliance just to survive
• Why creative kids—and the adults they grow into—need each other
• What it actually feels like to be free (spoiler: it’s not a tax cut)
• Community as refuge, rest as rebellion, and nature as reminder

We also share personal stories of leaving the academy, reclaiming creativity, and finding flow again—whether in a desert in Arizona, or under the Icelandic sky.

Mentioned in this episode:

• The Psychology of Liberty by Dr. Barbara Kerr - you can order your copy from your favorite indy bookstore - please & thank you!
• The cultural co-opting of freedom
• Smart girls, creative misfits, and masked intellectuals
• Rest, rebellion, and redefining success
• The birds. Yes, you can hear them.

🎙 Listen now to The One Where We Remember What Freedom Feels Like.

Then maybe take a nap. Consider it revolutionary.

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Breaking the Spell (Again): A Two Shrinks x Bewitched Crossover

Recorded at: Saguaro Lake Ranch, Arizona

In this special crossover episode of Two Shrinks on the Farm, Dr. Robyn McKay and Dr. Barbara Kerr trade the Kansas prairie for the Arizona desert as they meet at the historic Saguaro Lake Ranch—a place steeped in memory, healing, and academic roots. Together, they unpack the darker side of spiritual mentorship in the wake of Dr. McKay’s 24-day misadventures, into what can only be described as a psychologically and spiritually injurious retreat.

What begins as a reflection on shared history quickly unfolds into a compelling dialogue on the anatomy of spiritual harm, psychological resilience, and how even the most well-adjusted among us can find ourselves under the spell of charismatic—but ultimately dangerous—leaders.

You’ll hear:

• Why “if it can happen to us, it can happen to anyone” is more than just a warning—it's a truth about openness, intellect, and altered states.
• Barb's reflections on her own spiritual misadventure decades ago—and how it mirrors Robyn’s experience.
• The psychology behind cult-like dynamics, and how spiritual teachers can slide from benevolent mentors to manipulative leaders.
• The difference between spiritual crisis and psychiatric diagnosis—and why the integration of wisdom from both is essential to healing.
• The Dark Tetrad of personality and how delusions, narcissism, and moral injury intersect.
• What to keep, what to leave behind, and how to reclaim your gifts after spiritual betrayal.

✨ Plus: An unapologetically sharp and wise conversation on rituals, walk-ins, demon possession, and why spiritual healing doesn’t need to come with a side of psychological warfare.

🎧 This episode is part of the Bewitched series, co-hosted by Robyn McKay and Alyse Bacine, released alongside Louisa’s story.

🎧 Listen to Louisa’s powerful story—dropping today—over on She{ology} by Dr. Robyn McKay and get caught up on the 7 previous episodes of Bewitched while you’re there.

Thank you for being part of this conversation—we’re just getting started.

Also, you can...

follow Barb on Facebook

follow Robyn on IG

🔗 Reserve your copy of the upcoming ebook Healing the Healers: 11 Things Every Spiritually Intelligent Leader Needs to Know About Helping Clients After Spiritual Harm. You can do that right here: Healing the Healers

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Hosts: Dr. Robyn McKay & Dr. Barbara Kerr

Guest: Kimberlee McKay, MD (OBGYN, Maternal-Fetal Medicine Specialist)

Menopause isn’t the end—it’s just another beginning (with some hot flashes, hormone fluctuations, and a whole lot of societal myths to unravel). In this episode, Barb and Robyn welcome a very special guest—Dr. Robyn’s younger sister, Dr. Kimberlee McKay, an OB-GYN and maternal-fetal medicine expert, who brings her signature blend of medical wisdom and sharp humor to the conversation.

From the reality of perimenopause to the myths of menopause and the cultural phenomenon of female invisibility after 50, this episode covers it all. Kimmy shares her clinical insights on why menopause is different for every woman, what’s actually effective for managing symptoms, and why your give-a-shit gene might just turn off completely (and that’s a good thing).

✔️ The truth about perimenopause (and why it can last up to a decade)

✔️ Menopause vs. stress: how modern life speeds up hormonal shifts

✔️ Barb pokes holes in the grandmother theory

✔️ Weight gain, night sweats, brain fog—what’s real, what’s nonsense

✔️ How menopause symptoms mimic anxiety & depression (and why many women are misdiagnosed)

✔️ The invisibility effect after 50—and why some women refuse to disappear

✔️ HRT, bioidenticals, and why estrogen got such a bad rap

✔️ The NEO Personality Inventory, emotional regulation, and how menopause changes who you are

✔️ Why menopause might just be the ultimate glow-up

Barb also shares a legendary cowgirl story about wrinkles, Kimmie drops some OB-GYN wisdom on birth control after 40, and Robyn reflects on how menopause shifts your life purpose, self-acceptance, and confidence.

🌿 Want Barb and Robyn to analyze your personality with the NEO Personality Inventory? Reach out at [email protected]

🐴 Follow Dr. Kimberlee McKay on X (formerly Twitter) @OBGYNKenobi

📖 More about Dr. Robyn McKay’s work: @robynmckayphd on Instagram

📍 Follow us on Instagram: @twoshrinksonthefarm

🎧 Subscribe to Two Shrinks on the Farm for more fresh takes on psychology, creativity, and life beyond the ordinary

Press play and find out why menopause might just be the most freeing chapter yet

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Welcome to Two Shrinks on the Farm! Yes, we really are shrinks, and we really do live on a farm. With four free-roaming horses, two playful dogs, and a couple of curious cats, life here is anything but sterile. This episode takes us from our sunny beginnings (literally picking cherries and weeding the garden) to deep discussions about how to navigate the heaviness of the world as helpers, healers, and leaders.

• The story behind the podcast’s title and how our lives have brought us full circle to this farm.
• What it means to be a helper or healer—whether formally or informally—in today’s world.
• Insights on the collective feelings of exhaustion, fear, and overwhelm among psychologists, social workers, and other helpers.
• How the French Resistance during WWII inspired courage and the power of small acts of hope and solidarity.
• A deep dive into the concept of “Freedom Work,” including reclaiming time, creativity, storytelling, and connection as a means to overcome time poverty and societal constraints.
• Practical ideas for finding your community, supporting those most vulnerable, and creating courage in uncertain times.
• Lighthearted musings about life on the farm, from windy dog walks to the simple joy of a Friday night Moscow mule.
• 
  

1. Freedom begins at home: Prioritize small, joyful acts like storytelling, creativity, and connection in your own life.
2. Courage and community matter: Even in dark times, small actions and solidarity can make a significant difference.
3. Planned happenstance: Stay hopeful, open to possibility, and ready for good things to come your way.

We’re building a community of like-minded helpers and healers who want to connect, share, and create a freer, more vibrant future. Want to join us? Sign up to stay in touch: https://robyn-mckay.myflodesk.com/yu89hj2m4r.

• Follow us on Instagram: @TwoShrinksOnTheFarm
• Share this episode: Help us grow our community by sharing the podcast with your friends and leaving a review—we’d love to hear your perspective!
• 
  

Thank you for joining us today.

Until next time, keep your spirit wild, your heart grounded, and we’ll see you back on the farm before you know it! 🐴🐾

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Two Shrinks on the Farm, Dr. Robyn McKay and Dr. Barbara Kerr tackle common myths about creativity, diving into what it really means to live a creative life. They explore creativity as a personality trait, a process, and a product while debunking myths like “everyone can be highly creative” and “you’re too old to be creative.”

Drawing from decades of research, the duo discuss the role of openness to experience in creativity, the tension between solitude and community, and how systemic barriers around gender and privilege have shaped creative recognition. Along the way, they share stories of extraordinary creators and the everyday acts of creativity that bring purpose and joy to life.

The conversation closes with reflections on the importance of finding creative communities, embracing freedom within structure, and living boldly as a creative person, regardless of where you are on your journey.

Topics Covered:

• What defines creativity: Person, process, and product
• The link between openness to experience and creative potential
• Everyday vs. eminent creativity: Why both matter
• How privilege and systemic biases shape creative recognition
• The interplay of solitude and community in creative lives
• Creative communities and the freedom to thrive
• Rethinking age and creativity: It’s never too late
• Why parenting creative kids is different (and how to support them)

Listener Takeaways:

1. Everyday creativity is accessible to everyone, from designing a new recipe to reorganizing your space.
2. Creative potential isn’t limited by age—some of the best creative work happens later in life.
3. Creativity thrives in supportive communities that balance freedom with structure.
4. Systemic barriers shouldn’t diminish your creative aspirations—breaking those boundaries is part of the journey.

Quote of the Episode:

“Creativity isn’t just about creating art or music—it’s the way we problem-solve, connect with others, and make life meaningful.” – Dr. Robyn McKay

Resources & Mentions:

• Csikszentmihalyi’s work on creativity and flow
• Torrance Tests of Creative Thinking
• Research on the role of openness to experience
• Lawrence Creates Makerspace

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Episode Highlights:

• What is Conscientiousness? Robyn and Barb break down the six facets of conscientiousness and discuss why highly creative people often score low in this personality factor.
• Selective Conscientiousness: How being selectively dutiful can help you excel in your passions while letting go of unnecessary perfection.
• New Year Reflections: Insights on making resolutions that align with your purpose and how to prioritize what deserves your 100% effort.
• Creativity vs. Conformity: Why conscientiousness, when taken too far, can smother innovation, and how to reclaim your creative freedom.
• Slob for a Week Protocol: Barb shares her therapeutic approach to breaking free from overly conscientious habits.

Resources Mentioned:

• Smart Girls in the 21st Century by Dr. Robyn McKay and Dr. Barbara Kerr
• The Perfect Future Day Fantasy exercise
• Story about outsourcing conscientiousness

Next Episode: A deep dive into creativity and the quirks that make it thrive.

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

In this episode, Barb and Robyn dive deep into agreeableness—one of the five traits in the Five Factor Neo Personality Profile. They share personal anecdotes, dream interpretations, and sharp insights into the benefits and pitfalls of agreeableness, especially for smart, driven women and men navigating complex societal dynamics.

Topics Discussed:

• Farm Glam vs. Reality: Robyn’s stylish silver ski vest and Barb’s flannel life set the stage for their banter.
• Reflections on the Year: Robyn prepares to return to Arizona after 10 months on the farm, and Barb recounts finishing her book, The Psychology of Liberty.
• Agreeableness Unpacked: How being too agreeable can make bright women “too well-adjusted for their own good,” while also exploring its softer virtues—kindness, generosity, and modesty.
• The Perils of Compliance: From women sacrificing their dreams to the challenges of balancing agreeableness with leadership.
• Dreams with Lessons: Barb shares a vivid post-apocalyptic dream that taught her the importance of saying no.
• Tips for Balance: Why “No” is a complete sentence and how to approach situations that challenge your agreeableness without sacrificing your authenticity.
• Men and Agreeableness: A look at how societal norms shape the perception of agreeable men and why we need more “girl dads.”

Listener Invitation: Want to explore your own agreeableness? Robyn and Barb invite you to take the Neo Personality Profile with their guidance. Reach out to [email protected] for details.

Connect with Us:

Follow Two Shrinks on the Farm on Instagram @TwoShrinksOnTheFarm and don’t forget to subscribe, rate, and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share this episode with someone who would love it!

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Two Shrinks on a Farm, we delve into the concept of openness to experience, one of the key traits in the NEO Personality Profile. Join Dr. Robyn McKay and Dr. Barbara Kerr as they explore the joys and challenges of being highly open—how it fuels creativity and connection but also invites vulnerability and the need for grounding.

With stories from the farm, professional insights, and reflections on their own personalities, this conversation is perfect for creatives, healers, and anyone curious about what openness means for their lives.

What You'll Learn in This Episode:

• The six facets of openness to experience and how they show up in daily life.
• The interplay between imagination, emotional creativity, and intellectual curiosity.
• The risks of hyper-empathy and how to differentiate what’s "yours" versus someone else’s.
• How neuroticism influences openness and the potential for imaginative rabbit holes.
• Practical tools for balancing curiosity with grounding and discernment.

Key Quotes from the Episode:

• "They can take away a lot of things... but they can never take away your vision. They can never take away your mission."
• "Having a sense of calling—nobody can take it away from you. It’s always yours, no matter what the ups and downs are."
• "Being highly imaginative means I can track with almost anybody, but I’ve had to learn how to differentiate: Is this mine or somebody else’s?"
• "We've both had to learn to maintain our own truth and find a balance with our tolerance because we're able to tolerate so many differences and such a variety of human experiences."

Farm Highlights in This Episode:

• Romance in the pasture: Bill and Dusty may have sparked a connection on the trails.
• A honey locust thorn leads to a dramatic kitchen-table operation, Civil War-style.
• Reflections on how the rhythm of nature provides stability during chaotic times.

Resources Mentioned:

• NEO Personality Profile (learn how to measure your own openness to experience).
• Contact Dr. Robyn McKay at [email protected] to learn more about personality testing or to schedule your session.

Join the Conversation:

How open are you to new experiences? Share your thoughts and questions with us on Instagram @twoshrinksonthefarm. Don’t forget to tag us if you’re listening—your insights might just inspire our next episode!

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!

Two Shrinks on the Farm: Exploring Extraversion and Life's Adventures

In this episode of 'Two Shrinks on the Farm,' Dr. Robyn McKay and Dr. Barb Kerr delve into the concepts of extraversion and introversion, drawing from personal experiences and theoretical frameworks like the Big Five personality traits. Amidst humorous banter and farm life anecdotes, they discuss the nuances of personality assessments, the implications of traits such as assertiveness, excitement-seeking, and gregariousness, along with the challenges faced by introverts and extroverts in various settings. The episode ends with reflections on societal expectations, the power dynamics of silence, and the significance of authenticity in relationships and professional environments.

00:00 Welcome to Two Shrinks on the Farm

00:33 Meet Your Hosts: Dr. Robin McKay and Barb

01:17 The Podcast's Unique Approach

02:10 Reflecting on Episode One

03:21 Extroversion vs. Introversion

06:46 Exploring the Facets of Extroversion

09:01 Warmth and Gregariousness

13:42 Assertiveness and Leadership

20:29 Activity Level and Relationships

24:49 Excitement Seeking and Personality Disorders

28:34 Excitement Seeking Adventures

31:01 Positive Emotions and Joy

35:12 Heritability of Extroversion

37:36 The Value of Introverts

40:00 Performance Anxiety and Flow

41:56 Embracing Your 'Too Muchness'

48:17 Silence as a Power Move

52:10 The Importance of Assertiveness

54:43 Conclusion and Farewell

if you're interested in having your personality tested and interpreted by the two of us, or you're ready to bring us in to work with your teams, Get started by sending an email to [email protected] and we'll help you start the process.

Don't forget to follow us on Instagram for more behind the scenes fun from the farm, creative insights, and plenty of laughs from the reels that I'm constantly posting in stories. You can find us on instagram at @twoshrinksonthefarm.

Last thing: we'd really love it if you'd rate and review our podcast on whatever platform you listen to us on - and share us with your buddies - the more the merrier!