On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by fertility expert, acupuncturist, and conscious work practitioner, Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official. Originally a CPA, Lorne’s personal health journey led him to discover the transformative power of Chinese medicine, ultimately changing his career path. Now, as a leader in integrative fertility care and the host of The Conscious Fertility Podcast, Lorne bridges the gap between science and spirituality to help individuals optimize their fertility and overall well-being.

In this episode, Lorne shares how conscious work plays a powerful role in fertility, explaining how subconscious beliefs and emotional resistance can impact reproductive health. He discusses the mind-body connection, the importance of inner healing, and how shifting from stress to flow can create profound changes. Whether you’re on a fertility journey or simply looking to align with your highest self, this conversation is packed with insights on conscious transformation, holistic healing, and the power of perception.

 

Key Takeaways:

• Lorne’s personal journey from accountant to acupuncturist and fertility expert.

• How Chinese medicine and holistic healing transformed his health and career.

• The mind-body connection and how stress impacts fertility.

• How subconscious beliefs shape our reality and can either block or support conception.

• The power of inner work and emotional healing in reproductive health.

• How shifting from resistance to receptivity can improve fertility outcomes.

• The role of consciousness in creating meaningful change in health and life.

• Insights from The Conscious Fertility Podcast and how Lorne helps patients find balance through a holistic and energetic approach.

Guest Bio: Dr. Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official is a leader in integrative fertility care, blending Chinese medicine, mind-body healing, and cutting-edge therapies. A former Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA), his personal health journey led him to acupuncture, herbal medicine, and holistic fertility support.

As the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre, he introduced low-level laser therapy (LLLT) for fertility and pioneered IVF acupuncture in Vancouver. He also created Healthy Seminars, an online education platform, and hosts The Conscious Fertility Podcast, where he explores the intersection of science, consciousness, and reproductive health.

Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Lorne Brown, visit his website hereFollow Lorne Brown on InstagramListen to Conscious Fertility Podcast For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

 

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Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. ----- Transcript:

[00:00:00] 

Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility [00:01:00] Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast, Lauren.

**Lorne Brown:** Hey, Michelle, glad to be together with you over whatever we call this technology. I think yours is the Riverside.

Yeah, I had a good time interviewing you for my Conscious Fertility podcast, so I'm looking forward to having more conversations with you because that was a lot of fun for me.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It was a lot of fun for me too. And I actually it was really, really nice. And to see that we have very similar views just on reality and health and fertility,

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it was a lot of fun. And so last week actually for everybody's listening, that was the first time we actually officially met via zoom.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. But we know each other. We're part of the, the ABORM, right? The Acupuncture TCM Reproductive Board of Medicine but yeah, [00:02:00] like the first time you and I had real conversation rather than chat conversation.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Which is awesome. I

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it. And I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. I think that we both love the whole bridging of science and spirituality. We're kind of nerds in that department.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** for people listening, I would love if you can introduce yourself. I know we also have, we started out with very different backgrounds. And went into acupuncture, you have like kind of a similar cause you started in accounting, right?

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, so, I am a CPA, so a Certified Professional Accountant back in the day they were called Chartered Accountants in Canada and because of health issues and having such a a response to Chinese medicine in particular eventually I, I was the, one of the controllers and tax guys at this time with ocean spray growers here in B.

C. and I left that position so I could go back to school and study Chinese medicine as my second career. So that's kind of a little bit about my background. And then eventually

**Michelle Oravitz:** [00:03:00] Like what made you think about doing Chinese medicine?

**Lorne Brown:** I was ill. I had um, you know, back in the day, this is in the eighties and early nineties. So this Chinese medicine wasn't as available. This was before websites, right? Where you could really see what other people were doing and learning. And so I had severe gut issues, you know, diagnosis IBS, chronic fatigue, candida and you know, I got scoped through all each end and eventually and I tried different Western approaches and eventually it was the herb, Chinese herbal medicine actually that dramatically changed it so much.

So, I mean, I have some memories. I did a bachelor of science first in math. That was my first thing. Then I went and did accounting in McGill. And and then I went and became a CPA, back then CA. They changed the letters for the designation. And I remember when I was at McGill I was already seeing alternative medicine doctors, in particular Chinese medicine.

And I remember [00:04:00] s for the first time, how much clarity, because I had, I didn't realize how much brain fog I had.

And so the clarity I had, I was in the classroom, I just realized how easy things were going in, and I was just remembering things, and I just felt like things were almost in slow motion in a good way, like a professional athlete when they can see the court.

And physically, I just felt I had so much endurance, so much energy. I was just I felt great. And you know, when you've been feeling poorly for so long, That I thought that was normal.

And then I got, you know, the illness was so bad while I was early days in my accounting studies at McGill. it interfered with my, my studies.

It interfered my life. I almost couldn't get outta bed sometimes with the fatigue and the brain fog. And so I had an I had an aunt who was into this stuff. , I was, wasn't right. Remember, it came from Bachelor's Science Math in Duke County. I was, I think I was always open-minded. Look what I'm doing,

but it wasn't kind of on my radar.

And she's the one that suggested I see her Chinese herbalist. And you know, I was desperate. I was living in Montreal, Canada. She was living in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. So [00:05:00] I, I got on a plane and flew to see her person because I wouldn't know who to go see right back then. And you know, through dietary changes and herbal medicine.

It, it transformed my life and funny story because, you know, I do acupuncture like you do. I always had a fear of needles, right? I never was a big fan of needles. So the first time I was getting acupuncture, the acupuncturist who treated me, I have everybody lying down, but he had me sitting up on the table.

Right on the treatment table. I was sitting and he's putting these needles in me and he's like, are you okay? I guess he could see I was going a little green

and I'm trying to be, you know, tough guy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Next thing I know flop, I passed out on the table.

**Michelle Oravitz:** do.

**Lorne Brown:** So.

Yeah. So now I receive it.

I love it. Now I give it. But I did. It's a mind over matter, right? I did have that fear of needles, which is why I started with the herbal medicine. Most people like, Oh, I'll do acupuncture, but they maybe have an aversion to the herbs or the taste of the herbs. I was the other way [00:06:00] around. I got introduced to Chinese medicine through the herbal medicine.

And then I was like, Oh, I'll try the acupuncture too. and, you know, I stuck with it, obviously. And, and eventually went back to school and now I can I receive it and I can give it and I have so much compassion for those who have a fear of needles, but usually if they come in and try it, they realize it doesn't feel like needles that you're getting.

And now with technology, I have low level laser systems as well. So I can do laser acupuncture for those people that just cannot. Experience acupuncture because it's so stressful for them.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. So that's that's one of the things or sometimes starting them out with baby needles because the baby needles are really, really, really super thin. You can barely feel it.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah,

I mean, I, I mean, I just give them the acupuncture for the first time and, and they're nervous. But, you know, they let me put in one needle, then another, then a third. And that's all I'll do for the first visit for people who have a big phobia. But like you and I know, and those that have received it, it's not like getting a [00:07:00] needle at the doctor when you get a shot or blood drawn.

And so you really, you know, once they're in, it takes like a minute to put them in. Then you go and tell a beautiful rest, la la land for 30 to 45 minutes on the table. So all worth it for most.

**Michelle Oravitz:** totally worth it. For sure. So talk about why you got into fertility specifically.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and I'll keep it short, but it was, it was never my intention. My intention was to treat gut issues, digestive issues, because that's what brought me to the medicine. So I thought I'd be, and that's what I set out to do, IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's, colitis, severe bloating, constipation, diarrhea, that kind of stuff is what I thought I would be seeing.

and I did see a lot of that, and in our medicine, when we treat, we do a very Detailed history and we treat holistically so we can't just focus on the gut health just like for fertility We don't just focus on the women's ovaries, right? We focus holistically and so most people that come to health professionals back then And [00:08:00] I started in 2000 and now still are female And so I'd always do a menstrual history and the the menstrual history is such a great guide for health, right?

We can get so much information. That's why I prefer treating women over men. I treat both women who are menstruating. Help me diagnose them from a Chinese medicine perspective because I get so much information from their cycle history. And so as I was treating their bloating in their IBS, or they're alternating between, you know, constipation and diarrhea, or even colitis and Crohn's symptoms.

They noticed their PMS went away, they noticed their menstrual pain went away, their irregular bleeding, the spotting, all those things changed. So I became popular. with women's health in general. So I was just doing women's health. So I was seeing people with perimenopause and menopausal symptoms and with painful periods.

That was what I was seeing. And back then, again, the web wasn't a popular thing. I was advertising a magazine with a focus in women's health. And this woman who found me was going through an IVF and she was [00:09:00] going to see one of our colleagues, Randine Lewis, in Houston. So I'm in Vancouver and she flew to Houston to see Randine because this was before Zoom.

And she, Randine told her she needs regular acupuncture at least once a week so she's going to enter herbal medicine. So she has to find somebody local because it wasn't reasonable or cost effective for her to fly weekly to Houston from Vancouver, right? Nobody was focusing on fertility, but she found me women's health.

So she came to my clinic and told me her story and asked if I'd be willing to follow Randine's acupuncture prescriptions and her herbal suggestions and do that for her in Vancouver. And I kind of said cheek cheekily, but in a funny way, in a cute way, as a non aggressive way. So basically you want me to be like a monkey.

And put the points where Randine tells you, tells me, and prescribe the herbs where Randine how Randine tells me. She goes, yeah. And I'm like, I'm in. That sounds great. I get to learn from somebody. Because what our audience doesn't know, [00:10:00] Randine was already focusing with fertility. And she had already had this draft book, which came out shortly after, called The Infertility Cure.

First of many of her books. So, I thought it was a great opportunity to be able to learn from somebody with more experience and, and not have responsibility to the outcome. And so, and then women who are going through IVF and struggling with fertility, they talk and By 2004, I only would take reproductive health issues.

That was all I would take because I was too busy, and I started hiring associates and training them because I couldn't handle the load myself. Now, here we are recording this in 2025 I have multiple associates in our clinic. And that do focus on fertility and myself personally, I still see a lot of reproductive health.

But I'm so into the conscious work now. Cause I have low level laser therapy that we use for fertility, but I use that for so many other things. Brain health pain, pain injury. And I do a lot with pure menopausal symptoms. So, I would say, and half my practice, when I look at my [00:11:00] schedule is conscious work.

Right? Is that mind body work? Half my practice is that. They still get acupuncture and low level laser therapy as part of the treatment but they're coming in with, I'm wanting belief change work. and I do see a lot of reproductive health, but I see everything now. So it's, it's kind of gone full circle.

Because of the conscious work, because conscious work is my passion. And so whoever comes in the door that's looking for change, they may want a relationship change or want a relationship, job changes, finances. They want a baby, they want a healing. Basically, they want to be happy and they realize they can't get it from the outside.

So they're looking for help on the inside to have that transformation. And that's why we use it for fertility because it's such a powerful tool when you can heal the mind, the body follows really well.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. No doubt. So talk about the conscious work, specifically. What does it entail? Mm-hmm

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, well, I'm trained also as a clinical hypnotherapist, and I've done a lot of what they call energy psychology modalities. So I'm trained in [00:12:00] Psyche, emotional freedom technique, Bankstein healing method, you know, energy type medicine. But from the clinical hypnotherapy perspective and what I would call conscious work, it's inner work.

It's waking up to your true nature. It's waking up to what some people would call higher self, what they would call consciousness witness consciousness. You'd have to be open and appreciate that there's more to this world than meets the eyes. And so we have a Newtonian science world, what's considered a materialistic world, and those are things that we can kind of measure.

And then there's the science, the new science called quantum physics. Which understands there's so much more to this reality than what we see and when you have these shifts inside it has your your perception to the world You see it differently and you can think of it as if you live in a building Let's say your your life is a building, you know On the first floor if that's where you live, you're going to have a certain perspective of what your neighborhood is And it's going to be very limited because you can only see from the first floor.

And as you move up, if the 20 store [00:13:00] building, if you live above 10 and you start to live on the 15th floor, you have a different perspective of what is in your neighborhood than the person who lives on the first floor. And so conscious work is about kind of getting to a different perspective. I we know, you know, through so much more research now that we perceive the world.

Through the lenses of our subconscious programming, you know, and so how we see the world is through the lens of our subconscious and that subconscious programming is is inherited and imprinted on us inherited like literally few generations before we know this through um, research on Holocaust survivors and their children and grandchildren.

And we know this through the study, the cherry blossom study on mice were stressed and traumatized and it got passed down to their grand pups. I won't go into the study because it's

**Michelle Oravitz:** and DNA.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, it gets tagged. It's not a genetic mutation, it's a tag. So it can, one generation get tagged, and one generation you can heal it.

So, you see the world through the lens of your subconscious, and that lens is based on your history. And [00:14:00] so, I heard a teacher of consciousness once say, Reality's white snow, let's pretend that. And then you have red glasses. I have orange glasses. Some of the listeners have blue, green, white, yellow.

We're all seeing white snow, but we're all experiencing it, perceiving it differently because of our lens. And if we want to have a different experience to see that reality, we got to change our lens.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes.

**Lorne Brown:** You know, or we're both fans of Joe Dispenza, right? We both run retreats, and

**Michelle Oravitz:** we're Joe Dispenza groupies.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah, I like, I like his work.

I like his retreats and his books. And in his book, Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, I think it's where he said it. I've read all of his books and been to many retreats, but I really liked how he said your personal reality is based on your personality. And you can't have, how do you expect to have a different reality if you bring your current personality into your future?

You're gonna get the same thing. Right. And so this is about having that shift because, you know, we're going kind of into a rabbit hole here, but if you're open for it,

**Michelle Oravitz:** No, I'm totally open for it. And my, my listeners are used [00:15:00] to it,

**Lorne Brown:** okay, you know, God, I see they're allowed to, or Gandhi, I've seen this quote attributed to both, but it kind of goes like your beliefs lead to your thoughts, which lead to your feelings, which lead to your actions and behaviors, which lead to your habits. which leads to your destiny. Basically they're saying is your behaviors are always congruent with your beliefs.

And when they conflict the program, the belief is going to win. And if you do a behavior long enough, it becomes your habit. So it becomes a reality. So we often want to go and work on the outside world. We often want to go work on a behavior, but the behavior stems from a belief or a program often unconscious.

And so we'll self sabotage ourselves, even though we really want to lose that weight. We go and we diet, we exercise, but that's a behavior. But if you have a program that, you know, I'm not beautiful, right, or I'm not thin enough, then the subconscious wants congruency, and it will find a way to sabotage that.

[00:16:00] Consciously or unconsciously, it'll happen. And so rather than going to work on the behavior, we go to work on the program, and then it flows down, and the behavior changes naturally.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's so true. And it's almost that, you know, that saying whether you think whether you Think you can or can't 

**Lorne Brown:** you're

right. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it's just a matter of what we choose and I think the key with this is that people don't even realize It's almost like they're so asleep in the matrix

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** is such a great movie, by the way, because of that reason, it really shows us how, if we just knew that that was the case,

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** had those beliefs and it impacts our reality, then we would make a difference.

But I think the problem is, is not even knowing that it's even there.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. Well, of course, and I don't know if the age has changed, but it was my observation that around age 40, people start to realize that they need to do their inner work. the drug doesn't work anymore. The antidepressant isn't working, [00:17:00] or they're in a third relationship. It's not working.

They change cities. Like it's not working. The changing the outside is only temporary.

So somewhere around 40, maybe it's younger now cause things seem to be speeding up,

but around age 40 people come in there and they don't know what they're looking for, but they know they're looking for it. And you and I have language for this, right?

They're looking for inner work, conscious work, but they kind of know that I know by getting a new relationship, it's not going to help. I got it. Something's not right. about me. And I, you know, I'm going to give an example because the relationship one comes up a lot in my practice when people come and see me.

and I share this as an example of self sabotaging programs and why I like the conscious work. And we can talk about how this plays with fertility as well and baby manifestation. This actually wasn't my patient, but it was somebody who shared it. And I loved this case so much because it, it really is a great explanation of of belief change.

So She was around 45. She was a lawyer and she had become aware that she was somehow sabotaging relationships. No matter what [00:18:00] relationship she went in, like she would find some not such great guys in her opinion, but she actually realized she found some good guys too. But for some reason, even she knew there was a button and she, she knew she shouldn't push that button, but she would push the button even in her mind when she knew this isn't going to work out.

And the, and the relationship would collapse. So at her clinical hypnotherapy session, She got regressed and in this regression, she's experiencing herself as a four year old and she's remembering her mom is making dinner for her and her older sister was around seven and she promises the girls that they get popsicles if they eat all their dinner.

So her older sister. Eats her dinner fairly quickly and gets a popsicle. And she, she being for living in that theta brainwave living in the moment, it's not eating quickly. And all of a sudden she sees her sister with a popsicle and she goes, I want a popsicle and her mom's tired end of day. And she angrily says, no, you haven't eaten your dinner.

You don't get your dinner to you. You don't get your popsicle till you finish your [00:19:00] dinner. And it probably wasn't said in a loving way. And this triggered the four year old. And like many four year olds, she got. You know, she had a little four year old temper tantrum, and that set off her mom, and then she got sent off.

To her room without dinner and without popsicle. And in her story, she's thinking in her dialogue that mommy likes, mommy likes and loves my sister more than me. Mommy doesn't love me. I'm not lovable. And she has this aha moment when that program really started for her. I'm not lovable. Now, remember I said the subconscious and the conscious want congruency.

The heart and mind want congruency. When it conflicts, the heart, the shen, the subconscious, wins. And so, she would have a relationship, and if this guy was doting and loving her, her subconscious goes, that's not who we are, we're unlovable. And she would Consciously or unconsciously sabotage the relationship.

So in hypnotherapy work, we're able to bring her 45 year old self back and reparent doing her [00:20:00] child work and shift that. And I often say in my practice, I have a an approach. Notice, accept, choose again. Notice everything is neutral and we give it meaning. Neutral. She just did not get a popsicle. Neutral.

The meaning she gave it was I'm not lovable, right? And children that are in theta, meaning they're in, they're sponges. They don't have that prefrontal development to discern things. They just take things in and we don't know why. But you know, if you're a product of divorce, which a lot of people are It's usually for the children.

It does some form of scarring, subconscious scarring, right? Because the children feel like they're responsible. It's their fault. So guilt shows up or shame shows up. Not safe. So all these programs come up and when I distill them down, I see people that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I see people that can't afford my services, right?

And based on what they get paid, right? And when you distill it down, the stories are, can be very different, but when you still it down, it's I'm not enough, right? I'm not lovable. [00:21:00] I'm not pretty enough. I'm not thin enough. I'm not smart enough. It's kind of, I'm not enough when you distill it down, whether you're worth a couple hundred million or whether you're scraping things together.

So. Notice everything is neutral. We give it meaning. And when we believe in the story, we make it real. So this is not to believe in the story. And that's kind of that materialistic side, right? And we use these tools conscious work to go in and clean up the operating system. And here's an important point I want to share with our listeners is You know, you have this hardware, but the hardware functions depending on the software and I got multiple stories like this, but I'll give you a couple, you know, they have done research on those with multiple personality disorders and depending on the personality, right?

One will need reading glasses. One will not. One's blood tests will be diabetic and the other one will not. Right?

I mean. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** to orange juice.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, when we allergic not so same physical body. So from a journalistic point of view, this makes no sense, but from a quantum perspective, it does. Right. And and we've heard people [00:22:00] with near death experiences.

I've, I've heard through a colleague of one before, and I just, I'd met one recently, actually, and she's written a book on it, Anita,

where she, yeah, it's great, right?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Yeah.

**Lorne Brown:** So, you know, her story is she. Developed cancer, funny thing, not so funny, but she always had a fear that she would die and get cancer. So, you know, you got to be careful where you're putting your focus, right?

She did everything she could to not get cancer. She got cancer and she was ridden with tumors and she's in the hospital and her husband's by her side. And the story goes that she goes unconscious. So they tell her, say goodbye. She, this is it. She's, you know. She's going to die and she's got, they got on some medications too, I believe for pain relief.

And I think it was a day or two later, she opens her eyes and she has an experience of a near death experience where we won't go into it today where she sees other. Family members are beings, but not the personalities like she just knew who they were, but she realizes she's coming back and she knew she was coming back [00:23:00] different.

It wasn't like a full lobotomy, like 180 degree turn, but she had a personality change, right? And she knew her cancer is gone. And when she woke up, she tried to convince her husband her cancer was gone. And he's like, you know, no, you know, they got the doctors. She was able to re Share stories of conversations that they had outside when she was in the coma in another room.

She forbade him. She could,

you know, she knew what the doctor's shoes look like, right? Everything. So

**Michelle Oravitz:** that's that bird's eye view.

**Lorne Brown:** she was outside the body,

but her cancer went away without any medication. After that, she woke up from a coma. And her cancer just resolved herself. So there's that personality. So her personality changed and her physical body changed, right?

Because of this and going back to our friend Joe Dispenza, Dr. Joseph Dispenza and your listeners check out his book. They're supernatural the placebo and breaking the habit of being yourself. That's a really good one breaking the habit

Right. It's a good one to start with. He talks about you can use matter to change matter, which can be slow.

That's for our fertility patients taking supplements. [00:24:00] That's IVF, that's diet matter, change matter, or you can use energy to change matter, which can be spontaneous. Like what happened with Anita, which when her cancer went away, right?

Is it went away pretty quickly, right?

**Michelle Oravitz:** There's people with well, we see it all the time at Joe Dispenza's work stage four cancer. It just, it goes away.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. So that's working with a different, dimension of yourself, right? If you want to speak. So the conscious work that I use is how to tap into that, how to tune into it. And it came from my experience, right? I, I've learned this and developed this from many people I've studied with. And I'm a kinesthetic learning.

That's learner. That's why I've learned psych KFT, Marissa peers, rapid transformational therapy, Ericksonian The guy just. Love it, right? I think it started from insecurity. Not enough, not smart enough. So I kept on doing things which brought me my success outside, but inside it wasn't enough. So I kept on learning and learning and learning.

And then eventually, you know, you're brought to your knees, which I was. debilitating anxiety. And I go in and do the [00:25:00] inner work and I have the transformation. And then I'm kind of at peace. Don't feel like I need to do too much. But now there's this new drive, this overflowing, wanted to share. It's a different feeling.

It's comes from peace. It doesn't exhaust you. Right. And so I think on the outside, if I was looking at me, I looked. Similar as in go, go, go. Always learning, always doing right. But I was coming from fear and lack for many years, my doing and stuff. So my doing just got me more fear and lack because I could never feel that void.

Now I'm going, going, going, but it's coming from feeling more whole and complete and I'm not attached whether I do it or not, right? I'm not attached to it so much. And but yet I'm still doing it. But now I feel Charged by it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's so great. I mean, don't you see the yin and the yang too, in a lot of this

**Lorne Brown:** Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** the harmony, the

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and you got to keep going into the end So you then you have the young and it happens, right? So, you know, I go inside I become quiet and and then all of a sudden all this [00:26:00] activity and inspire thought comes through me And then I I want to go in and see if I can manifest it, right?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And everything kind of goes in pulses, you know, there's a, there's pulses, even with like experiences that we have in life, there's ebbs and flows. I think that we get impatient or we think that it's going to be forever, but nothing lasts forever. It's like the good news and the bad news, nothing lasts forever.

**Lorne Brown:** Right? Yeah, it's the good news and the bad news. Yeah, in that sense, don't be attached.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, true.

**Lorne Brown:** Which is a practice.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it is, and it's something that the ancients have been telling us this whole time. They've told us to go within, they've told us not to be too attached, to learn from nature, to learn from what's around us. to flow, flow with it.

**Lorne Brown:** And a tip for our listeners, because again, I teach what I've experienced. Many people may be going, well, I've read these books and I know all this stuff and I haven't had a shift. I was that guy where I had read everything and took courses, but I didn't do the process work. I, I conceptually understood it.

I could teach it. But I wasn't living it. And it wasn't until I actually did the process work that the [00:27:00] transformation started happening, the awakening started happening. And so that's kind of, you know, with my patients, when I work with them, they want to get in the head and understand, which I love. We got to understand when you understand the why behind it, they say that the how becomes easier.

The why is, you know, how does it work? And then the how is, what are you going to do? But if it's just an intellectual discussion you'll have a mind shift. But you won't have a trait change. And what's the difference? A mind shift is that temporary, you feel excited, this makes sense. It feels excited, but it's a shift.

It's like when you pull an elastic band apart, it's neuro elasticity, it stretches out, this feels good. But within an hour or two, or a day or two, it goes back to its normal shape. So you haven't made a neuroplastic change, you just made a mindset shift.

And if you do that daily, multiple times, it eventually become neuroplastic.

And what I mean neuroplastic is if you stretch out a piece of soft plastic and you let go, it stays stretched. So that's the trait change.

So repetition or doing many things that create a mind shift regularly often will give you [00:28:00] neuroplasticity changes, right? That hold becomes a trait. That's that, you know, do certain actions over and over again.

So that's one way. But then there's other. faster ways to do neuroplastic changes, which doesn't just require repetition. That is one of them, but there's other processes I use. Part of my hypnosis practices and other energy psychology tools is what they're often called now to help make that neuroplastic change, not just from repetition, but from doing these Process work and we call it process work because it's not it's not done.

It's a it's a bottom up process versus a top down So i'm not a counselor a therapist. That would be somebody who's doing a top down Let's talk about this

and there's some benefit to it. The clinical hypnotherapist perspective is a bottom up meaning Your tyra box said this once your issues are stuck in your tissues

So when you have these emotions rarely does somebody say I feel it in my head It does happen once in a while.

Most people feel it in their throat, in their chest, in their stomach. It's in your cells. And we got science to talk about [00:29:00] how the microbiome changes with stress and emotions.

**Michelle Oravitz:** images of people, all people that were angry, all people that were sad. And they would notice that it would light up in certain spots consistently in the body, which is really fascinating. You can probably find it online.

**Lorne Brown:** cool. Absolutely.

And, you know, we know like we got serotonin receptors in the gut. Now the heart's being known as a, as a second brain may have more what the read off of it more than the brain and, and then dispensa and heart math talk about heart brain coherence.

So we're. You know, I look at it this way is, you know, back in the day of Galileo and Newton, the days when we thought that the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat, it was hard for society to shift and science to shift, right?

Cause everything we understood the way we could look, it was like, no, no, the world's flat. It look at it, you can tell, look, look outside, doesn't look round or look, look, you can tell that. the sun is going around the earth. Look in the sky. It's so obvious. And you [00:30:00] can't tell me the earth is spinning.

We would feel it, right?

And now today, most people

realize that the earth is round, not flat. There are so few flatters out there. They realize the earth is spinning and that the earth goes around the sun. But there's your perception, you know, there's the first floor view. From my view, the sun is going around the earth.

I see it rise and set, right? I can see it float around. I'm standing still. I'm pretty sure about it, but that's a illusion. It's not a complete correct perception on that first floor when you go to a higher floor. So in this case, when we go into space, We can see that it's actually the earth that goes around the sun and the earth is round.

And then if we go to a higher floor, we're going to probably get a whole other understanding of what's going on in this human experience and purpose and what's your individual purpose. And people have spoken of it. I haven't tapped into that aspect. I've had those. Non medicated, so non psychedelic experiences where I've tapped into profound peace, where I've tapped into bliss.[00:31:00] 

I've also, through psychedelics, I've only done it once, so I'll never do it again, where I tapped into my shadow, right? Accelerated my journey, but I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, going into my shadow work unprepared.

**Michelle Oravitz:** 'cause if you, you have to be ready for it. That's

**Lorne Brown:** I wasn't ready for it. I, I, I cheated. I cheated with psychedelics. And it put me into my shadow grateful now because and here's a litmus test for myself.

So I share this with the listeners as well. If you. don't like your life now, then I'm pretty sure you're still living in kind of a victim mode. You don't like your past and you'll have all the evidence to say why you don't like it. And if you can love your past, no matter how bad it is, then I know you love your now.

I know you love your life. Why? Because You realize that who you are today is based on everything that's happened to you and you and because you love where you are today, you would never want to change your past because you love your day. Doesn't mean you want to relive your past, but you're grateful for.

You don't regret it because you love today. [00:32:00] But if you hate your past, then it's I'm pretty sure you really don't love it. your day. And there are some terrible things that have happened to people. And I've seen people who've had terrible acts done to them. They would never ask to go do it again, like, but they also say, I love my life now.

And so I wouldn't change anything in my past. So that shows you that's healed, right? That vibration that's healed. And so, because there's only this moment. So I find conscious work powerful when you bring it to reproductive health. I want to quote our Randine Lewis friend who wrote the book, The Infertility Cure, many books, but I remember hearing her talk about when women get into a later stage of their reproductive years, especially into their forties she said, you know, at the beginning, you know, reproduction is, it's a, it's a youth game, Jing, we call it essence Jing, it's the physicality, right?

You got to have good physicality and it, and that happens with the youth. We see it around us, right? Like, a 90 year old and a 20 year old, the same person or different [00:33:00] physically. But there's something about spiritual maturity and sometimes, and this is where it kind of ties into Dr. Jo Dispenza, matter change matter.

So that's the physical, the Jing. And then there's energy that can change matter. And that's what we call the Shen, the spirit tapping into that consciousness. And she says, when you're younger, you can be spiritually mature because you have such good Jing, it overrides everything. And so you can be a drug addict.

And you're 20s and getting pregnant all the time, right?

Poorly eating, all that stuff. And then if you get into your 40s, the physicality you want, but it's not enough, you need to, as she said, have your shit together. So that's, I'm quoting her.

And sometimes that's when we see what we call miracles. It overrides the physical.

And you really need to do that spiritual, the spiritual maturity happens. And so, you know, have both. Add to that her excitement with donor egg back in the day when we were having this conversation was she couldn't wait to meet the Children that were born through donor egg cycles because she [00:34:00] says currently this was way back when in early 2000 people were born with either young mothers, so physically strong, spiritually immature.

They're in their twenties, early thirties or they're born with women in the early forties. physically not as strong, but spiritually more mature. So they didn't have both. She goes, but with the donor egg cycle, they get the gene from the, the egg. So a physical, physically strong, younger woman, and they are gestated.

And raised by spiritually mature women. It's going to be the first time where they get both strength from the physical and strength from the spiritual. So she was quite excited. It

was a different perspective to look at the Dorae. She was like, I wonder what kind of children these are going to be, right?

So, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** amazing. And actually it's really interesting. I don't know if you've seen this yourself, but sometimes the donor egg and the child looks like the mother.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah, well, not surprising. I, I, I can't quote you on this, but I remember that they've done this in animals where you put him in a different, like, I don't know, [00:35:00] a donkey into a horse or something like, and it comes out looking more like the the mother. Like the, the horse. So, because don't forget you start as, you know, You know, a bunch of cells, right, you know, when you go in and you're grown, so you are influenced because you're, you're taking in in Chinese medicine talks about this, the emotional well being of the mother during pregnancy will impact the nervous system and the emotional personality of that child.

And so what you're eating and what you're doing is helping grow that child. So we have what we call prenatal Jing, you know, for our listeners. So you get that from the mother, the father, and then. throughout pregnancy. And then postnatal Jing is what you, what happens after you're born. So your diet lifestyle.

And so everything is impacting you up until you're born. That's what we'd call your genes. And in Chinese medicine called pre pre pregenetic destination, right?

Prenatal, prenatal essence. I don't know if I said, if I use the right word, prenatal essence or prenatal Jing is what happens. So, yeah, I love [00:36:00] that story that she looked a little bit like the mother, not surprising.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And I've actually seen it because I, one of them she's somebody that I'm friends with on Facebook and she's also been on the podcast, Nancy Weiss. She's a spirit baby medium, is a whole other

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** topic. Right. But she. donor embryos and one of her daughters, she put a side by side picture of herself when she was younger and the daughter, and it was crazy. How similar they looked and then I've heard another story of somebody with freckles that she's had freckles But the mother of the donor did not and her husband did not So she always wanted a child with freckles and sure enough one of them got freckles 

**Lorne Brown:** Very cute. Yeah,

And that, there's so much things we don't understand and the donor egg cycle, I don't know if you've seen this, but with my patients, they only have one regret and it's a great regret that I've always heard when I've heard any regrets, I don't hear it often, but I hear it [00:37:00] and they say that the only regret I have is that I didn't do this donor egg cycle sooner because I don't, I realized I could have been with this baby I, I waited, I, you know, cause they're doing other things and understand there's a process to come to this place where you're ready to do donor a.

But that's a great regret. Meaning they love this baby like from day from day one implantation, right? They have this connection. They're their mother. And and. It's, it's, that's great news, right? Cause so many people understandably have to get their head around about not using their own genetic material, right?

And when you get there, when you surrender, which is part of conscious work, right? And the resistance drops and you get into flow and receptivity, the experience can be beautiful. And then regardless, even if you don't, when that baby's born, you're like, what the heck? I've been waiting for this forever.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. And that's another thing. So looking at the same thing from different lenses and different perspectives, and then you can kind of think, [00:38:00] okay, I may have wanted it to go this way, but perhaps it can go another way. And I'll still get the end goal, which is really to become a mother.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, that's the end goal. And that's what we want to focus on. And from the conscious work, you know, we, we hear so often in manifestation work and in teachers of consciousness, not to be attached to form an outcome. And I'm a practical guy. So the left brain, my math background, my accounting, I'm, what I would say my feet are on the ground and my header is in the clouds, not just, you know, some people either their head in their clouds.

So some people in our industry just head in the clouds. So it's hard to bring it to this earth or my old profession as a accountant, the feet are on the ground, right?

I feel like I'm, I'm doing both of that. 

So. I want to share this because this worked for me. And again, I often share is, you know, it's easy to say don't attach to form an outcome. That's easy to say you're not the one that has, you want this form an outcome.

So it's, you can't fool the universe. You can't pretend, right? Really pretend,

but you can do [00:39:00] practices. And I have found this line and I didn't come up with this. I heard this from somebody else and I was like, brilliant. And it works for me and it's worked for hundreds of other people I've worked with this or something better.

Yeah. I want this or something better that had such a different vibration to it because you didn't choose your desire So I will never say you can't have you can't want this You can't desire this because you didn't choose it. I I prefer chocolate ice cream over strawberry. I can't tell you why it's just it is I just like I want chocolate ice cream.

I don't really want strawberry ice cream. It's just What is, and so, but when you have a desperate need for it, that if I can't have this, then you create resistance and that impacts the field and that cannot be healthy. But if you have a desire, you want it, but you also know you're going to be okay, whether you have it or not, that doesn't add resistance to the field.

And so often we, cause if you get focused on has to be this way, then you're not leaving yourself open to other things that [00:40:00] can bring you that same experience. Right? Because what does the baby bring to you? Right? You know, why do you want the baby? What's it gonna bring? What's gonna be different? What are you gonna experience?

You know this kind of work, right? Because then you could get little, I call them Drift logs or kisses on the cheek from the universe where you know what it feels like you're practicing what it feels like and it's This or this or something better and then all of a sudden it that same experience comes to you But it's a different manifestation physically.

So you're like, oh You know getting that feeling and so you're you're starting to get it from other places as well You're experiencing it. And when I say get it from other places I want to use that loosely is you have learned to Elicit that experience inside of you and then you're starting to see it manifested on the outside so because you don't want to have to get it from the outside because again, then you're not whole and complete This whole work is about becoming whole and complete where it's cut.

You are it's It's you're making it inside of it. You're tapped into a part of yourself higher than I guess the ego self to use that language. And then it becomes fun to [00:41:00] see if you can manifest it on the outside, but you're already experiencing the feeling. Hence it's easy not to be attached because you're already feeling the joy or the love or the nurturing of something else, right?

And the being of service to something else, you're already bringing up that experience. So you don't need it on the outside, but then all of a sudden you see it on the outside and that just bumps it up a bit. It amplifies it. And so you get, but it's temporary, that amplification. And then when you come back to your set point, that set point is peace and joy anyhow.

So you're good.

**Michelle Oravitz:** So it's unconditional peace and joy. It doesn't have a condition on it. You choose to just have that.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** you can, and I think that that's the big thing is that people don't realize that they can actually do that. They could bring it up through just meditation and different practices that they can bring it up in themselves.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. You tap into that. And I mean, I've, I've had that. I have glimpses. I have experiences of it. And for now the language is I'm, I'm tapping into my true nature and everybody has this true nature, your witness consciousness, your higher self, you want to give it a word. [00:42:00] And. I think we might have talked about this when I interviewed you on the Conscious Fertility podcast, but it's not all positive.

It feels good. You still get uncomfortable feelings.

You're just not at the full effect of them. So you experience the sadness. You can experience fear. You can experience guilt or hopelessness, but it moves through you like a song on a radio, 90 seconds, and it passes through you. And then you're back to that peace.

And So if you're able to not get into the story and you can experience it, you still feel these uncomfortable feelings, but there's a, there's could be an underlying peace or even beauty behind some of those feelings. You're just not at the full effect of them and they just don't last for, for weeks.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, the untethered soul, I think that was like a big game changer for me, that book

**Lorne Brown:** Michael Singer's book. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Singer, he's amazing. And I think that it really was about like allowing discomfort to happen without judgment, without that kind of good or bad, that neutrality, just kind of allowing it to happen. And I have an [00:43:00] example because I burned myself. I remember it was a Friday night and I was exhausted. I was so tired. I couldn't wait to sleep. And I burned my thumb. was like, man, and it was a stupid thing. Cause I was so tired and I touched something and I knew I shouldn't have done, it was just like, without thinking. And I was like, how am I going to sleep with this burning sensation? It was like the worst feeling ever. You know, it's like when you first burn yourself. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe it was like my higher guidance, something resist the burn. So I was like, okay, let me try this. literally felt, I closed my eyes and like, I imagined myself just kind of going through the fire with my hand and almost. Accepting it, inviting it, allowing it. And literally within five minutes, the burn went away.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and that's the quantum. That's energy changing matter and you use the awesome word resistance Right resistance is futile to quote the Borg from Star Trek

Resistance is futile for those Trekkies out there When you add resistance basically you amplify the burn you amplify the [00:44:00] suffering or take from the Buddhist quote pain is inevitable the burn hurts Suffering is optional.

That's where you amplify and when you can lean into it versus it's counterintuitive because we should run away from it. We think, right? And I had that similar experience in the nineties. I I had read, I read dr joe dispenses book, but I didn't understand it. I kind of read it, but Didn't catch very much of it the first read and one day when I was studying to write the exams to become a chartered accountant, a CPA I had sadness come over me real, and it was a new thing.

I wasn't something I really experienced this kind of sadness that I could recall. And I don't know why I did this, but there's again, another part of you leading the way here. I decided to, in the middle of the day, I had shared accommodations. I was living with a female and she had Yanni and the Ghetto Blaster.

Back in the day, it was Ghetto Blasters. with cassettes, maybe CDs. She had some incense burners. So I lit that and there was like lavender rose in it. And I went in the [00:45:00] bath and just decided to experience the sadness. So as I'm listening to the sad music, there's some incense and candle lit in the middle of the day in the bath, hot bath.

I'm so going into the sadness. Tears are rolling down my eyes. And in a moment I'm in full bliss. Like I'm like bliss. Like. But I I don't do drugs, but what except for that psychedelic experience, what, what a good high would be like, it was like, and honestly, if that's what it feels like, I understand why people would do drugs.

It was just bliss. And I'm like, you know, try to be sad. Because I was like, this feels great. Can I be sad? I couldn't be sad. And it was only later I had that experience first. And then I read dispenses book. Sorry, not just Ben's, Eckhart Tolle's book, Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now is what I meant.

And the line where he says, you, when you're present, you can't suffer, because when you're regretting the past or fear in the future, you're not in the present.

But if you're in the present, he says, even sadness can be turned into bliss. And when I read that line in the book, [00:46:00] I had my aha moment because I had that experience. And now the process that I do in my conscious work is about lowering the resistance. Somebody says, what are you doing? You're tuning into your, your wist witness consciousness.

You mentioned Michael Singer, the untethered soul. He often says he doesn't use tools or do tools, but he kind of does. And and I have a process that I believe brings down the resistance. My experience, people, I've worked with and then you have that flow and receptivity and sometimes I just have peace.

Maybe it's at, you know, if my, if I'm frustrated or fear, it's a seven out of 10, it'll come down to say a two or one. So peace in an unhappy situation still, right? But peace. So the resistance is low.

Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** flow in that moment. And it's interesting because I, my litmus test is, are you present? Really? That's the question. I, a lot of people that I work with is, are you present? Like, cause many times when they share things that are uncomfortable for them, they're not really in the present moment.

They're either [00:47:00] expecting a future or thinking about a past or something that happens. So the present moment's always the antidote. To everything. If we

**Lorne Brown:** present. And that's what the mind does. It's the nature of the mind. You can't get mad at the mind for thinking because that's its nature to be like getting upset with water for being wet, right? It's its nature. So you're fighting with reality. However, there's tools to help you get present and these uncomfortable feelings can become portals to presence.

Right.

And you're not wallowing them and, and embellishing them, you know, you're not inflating them. You're leaning into them and observing them. So I think what's happening, my experience, my understanding to this point is when we really get practice at noticing and observing them and accepting them, I think we're tuning, we go into present moment, but we do this by tuning into our witness consciousness because the mere fact of witnessing them, not, it shouldn't be this way.

It's not fair, like getting into the head. But.

**Michelle Oravitz:** neutral watcher.

**Lorne Brown:** get into the watching, just getting practice at watching, then you [00:48:00] tune into your witness consciousness and that nature of you is peace and joy. So you tune into it. So wherever you put your energy is what's going to grow. So if you believe in the story and you're at the effect of the story, then you're You're unconscious and you're experiencing it.

You're suffering right now. You've amplified the negative situation if you're able to observe it I'm not saying you'll like it. We're not doing a spiritual bypass here, but getting practice at observing at it I believe you tune into the witness consciousness and It's nature's peace and joy and the metaphor I use for this Michelle is when we so Tell me how this lands for you and I'm curious for your audience because this for me was my another aha moment just like what's going on here because I'm having these experiences and I want to have language to share with the people I work with.

So if you buy an apple, you have to consciously you Michelle ego Michelle has to pick up the apple and chew it. But after that, Michelle, you're not going release salivary enzymes in your mouth. Like I got to do that. Nobody talked to me. Nobody talked to me. I'm getting acid into [00:49:00] my stomach now. Okay, I cannot.

Walk up the stairs because my intestines are now absorbing the all these B vitamins or same thing when you sleep when you go to sleep You're unconscious. You're not breathing yourself. You're not pumping your blood Or pumping your heart circulating your blood your autonomic nervous system is doing this another part your subconscious program is doing this, right?

The autonomic nervous system. Well same thing. I don't believe for me that I let go of these programs or emotions anymore. Not Lauren Brown ego. Just like I don't release the salivary enzyme. All I have, I believe it's my witness consciousness does this. It's what's metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings and old programs.

And how do we do this? Well, first you have to make the unconscious conscious. So that's my notice step. Everything is neutral and then we give it meaning. Don't believe in the story. When you do, you make it real. So don't take it personally. Then I have multiple tools during the accepting part to surrender to what is, not fight it.

Doesn't mean you're resigned to it. Doesn't mean you like it. We're just accepting that this is how I feel right now. And you [00:50:00] accept it and you start to observe it and get really, this is a skill. You get practice at observing it.

And by that observing, you tune into the witness consciousness and it is what lets go the feelings.

It's what metabolizes it.

So, so.

It's the intelligence. And so give it a conscious divine. I don't know if it's a part of me or part. I don't know. All I know is Lauren Brown is not doing it. Just like Lauren Brown gets to choose to bite the apple. Lauren Brown gets to choose to notice, not take it personally and observe it.

That's all I do.

The digestion of the apple is outside of my ego, my conscious mind, the digestion and the alchemy of these emotions where I was sad, went from sad to bliss. Right or go from fear to just feeling at peace. I'm not doing that I don't believe I let go of it and this ties into Michael Singers He says that these I don't know what he calls them Sankara's or something these these these energy blocks.

They're [00:51:00] there So you're not experiencing your true nature You're all blocked up with these old programs and beliefs and feelings, but when they get released they move up and out You have this space now where you get to experience yourself. So that's how he describes it.

Does, I mean, the, the metaphors and the concepts, yeah, the bottom line is you got to do the work you get.

That's my point. It's nice to understand. A lot of us cannot confirm or prove anything, but when you have the experience, you don't care because the experience is peace and peace. It was nice.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It is.

**Lorne Brown:** I'm not at the,

I'm not at the state, I'm not at the stage where I can equally treat fear and, and peace or fear and love together.

Like some people say you get to a place where you don't, you don't judge either. You're, they're just vibrations. You're okay. I definitely prefer peace and joy and bliss over fear, shame, guilt, just so you know. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** really our true default

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** is in that nature and that's the Buddha [00:52:00] nature. That's kind of like

**Lorne Brown:** yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** like form and we learn the other things.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** habituated through habits. So bringing this into fertility, which I think is actually very relevant, even though, you know, it's kind of like this big grand concept, it could totally apply to going through IVF, going through the resistance.

And also in the IVF, you get so focused on the numbers and the analytical, where sometimes you need to kind of. move back and allow yourself the space and the, and to really take care of your wellbeing. And that's kind of like a, my big thing about that, which always tends to kind of fall in the back burner burner.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah, yeah, you're going through the journey and anyhow, so that's all thing pain is Inevitable suffering is optional. I don't think anybody would want to go through an IVF However, if you're going through it, you could go kicking and screaming and suffer through it, or you can go through it and, and not amplify the difficulties of it.

And that, again, is a skill set, because [00:53:00] IVF is not easy. As you know, the research shows it's like getting a cancer diagnosis or terminal diagnosis, infertility. So I want to clarify that we're not dismissing it. The conscious work is about being authentic. It's actually about feeling your feelings.

However, with a different lens and developing a skill set, a process, so you can metabolize it, right?

But yeah, if you're going to go on this journey, if you're in this journey, you didn't choose it, but you're in it. And so how do you use it as, as they say in the conscious teachings, how do you make it as, how is this happening for you versus to you? What does that mean? How do I get out of victim mode?

Because it doesn't serve you to being accountable, responsible. What does that mean? Accountable responsible does not mean you blame yourself or you blame other accountable. Responsible means that if you're having the experience, then that's all you need to know that you're responsible for healing it because you're the one having the experience.

If you if you it wasn't your responsibility, then you wouldn't be having that experience. And there's so many experiences [00:54:00] happening around the world at one time, and each individual is only aware of so many the ones that they're aware of that are triggering them that they're experiencing.

That's, that's all you need to know that that means you're accountable, responsible for that. The stuff that's happening around the world that doesn't trigger you, it's not your responsibility to do the inner work around it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, I mean, I can keep talking to you forever and of course we just talked about one subject, so perhaps I'll bring you back for other ones as well. But this is this is definitely the kind of thing that I'm very interested in and I nerd out on this all the time. It really is something I think about every single day. I think that it is when you really are bringing up your consciousness and becoming more aware in your life and. Really being the creator of your life or owning that you are a creator in your life I just think it brings another element of purpose and meaning everything.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. We all want to be happy. And we think different things outside of us will make us happy. This work brings that kind of [00:55:00] happiness. And if, to kind of wrap this part up on consciousness from the materialistic and then the quantum perspective, you know, when we, when we're unconscious, or when we're in that state of fear, we don't feel safe, right?

Then our body goes into survival mode, right? The fight or flight. And so, our resources are not available for healing. creativity and reproduction because they're in survival mode, you know, blood gets drained from the, the thinking brain goes, the blood gets drained from the digestion reproduction.

And so, but when you feel safe, which is what conscious work is, so here's on the material level, you free up resources for healing, creativity, reproduction. And we know this, that the unsafe hormones of cortisol. and adrenaline and epinephrine, all those things affect inflammation, the body, the effect, your immune system, your hormonal system, your gut microbiome.

And when you feel safe, you're releasing the serotonin, the dopamine oxytocin, and they turn on and off genes for health and [00:56:00] reproduction. So that's the material level. And then on the quantum level, there's more of this world that meets the eye and you have multiple stories. And I have stories of women where it doesn't make sense on the material Newtonian.

medical, current medical research

that this woman is going to get pregnant based on her age, based on her FSH, AMH, based on her history. And then they go ahead and it happens, right? And that's where dispenses energy changes matter. It's instantaneous or Randine says the Shen is key here. And that's where you tune in.

And I, and I want to clarify, I'm not saying, Oh, if you do conscious work, you'll get pregnant. Absolutely not. Just sharing that. Miracles can happen or shifts can happen. And what I have found is people get to a place where they're okay. Whether they're going, they have baby or not, they know they're okay.

And that means they have the flow and receptivity. So they feel happy. They still want the baby, but they're no longer in that state of desperation. They're no longer putting up the resistance that could be interfering [00:57:00] with that flow and receptivity, which would be supportive of a. Healthy pregnancy.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, and it really comes down to the state of being and that state of flow. And so again, you were saying, you know about how it's not about taking out the things that are uncomfortable for us And that's really the yin and yang balance having both, you know The differences and then having them be harmonious and work together and flow I think ultimately it's like I always say it like when you're in flow things start to work out you're coasting

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, well people, resources tend to flow to you when you're in flow and receptivity. When you're, when the resistance is low and you have flow and receptivity, things tend to flow to you. And we know in electrical systems that when there's stagnate, there's resistance, we call it Qi stagnation in Chinese medicine,

**Michelle Oravitz:** our bodies. Yeah.

**Lorne Brown:** the energy flows slower and it heats up the system in a bad way.

And when the resistance is low in an electrical system, the energy flows

better. So we're electrical, chemical, magnetic beings. And so when our resistance is up, we call it cheese [00:58:00] stagnation, call it resistance. You don't feel the flow and receptivity. We call it stress in the West. And when you are able to do the work to metabolize, to have that alchemy where you're changing these old programs that don't serve you or the, or metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings then the resistance drops and now you have flow and receptivity.

Your energy flows better.

**Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. So Lauren, this is a great conversation. I definitely feel like we connect on many levels and I think it's really fun to be able to talk to somebody about this kind of work, especially somebody who's a colleague of mine and somebody I look up to. I think that you do a lot of great work. By the way, he also has healthy seminars, which is like a whole list or database of many courses for us.

A born members. Within the fertility world. So he has a lot background in this work. thank

**Lorne Brown:** Thank you.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Lauren, for coming on. And if you can also share how people can find you through your website

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, two ways. And [00:59:00] then on that you can find Instagram and all this stuff. There's the Accubalance website and it's with one C Accubalance. ca. The ca stands for Canada for my American listeners Accubalance. ca. Or the laurenbrown. com will have links to stuff as well. And Lauren is spelled L O R N E so laurenbrown.

com and obviously I also want to direct you both sites will have links to it, but the The conscious fertility podcast has lots of talks around consciousness and, and also around fertility as well. Like guests like Michelle are on there. And so, I do invite you to listen to the conscious fertility podcast.

We put out usually once a week episodes.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, Lauren, this is a great conversation. I knew it was going to be, cause I met you last week and we had a great conversation last week too. thank you so much for coming on today.

**Lorne Brown:** Thank you very much, Michelle.[01:00:00] [01:01:00] 

 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into why your nervous system may hold the key to conception. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function? I’ll break down how chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation affect hormone balance, digestion, and overall well-being.

In this episode, I’ll also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system through the lens of Traditional Chinese Medicine and share practical strategies to restore balance, enhance relaxation, and support your fertility naturally.

Key Takeaways: 

• Chronic stress can put the body into survival mode, diverting energy away from reproduction.

• A harmonious balance between action (yang) and rest (yin) is essential for optimal fertility and overall well-being.

• Stress impacts digestion, which in turn affects fertility. The vagus nerve plays a key role in restoring balance.

• Proper sleep helps regulate hormones, maintain circadian rhythms, and support menstrual health.

• Practices like yoga, qigong, breathwork, grounding, and acupuncture help shift the body into a restorative state conducive to conception.

• The heart-uterus connection in Traditional Chinese Medicine highlights the role of oxytocin in conception and reproductive health.

---- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

 

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Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. Transcript: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] 

Michelle Oravitz: Welcome back to the wholesome fertility podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orobitz. And today I'm going to be talking about something absolutely crucial for fertility.

And you may have not guessed this, but it's your nervous system. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function for both men and women? Today, we'll cover how nervous system dysregulation affects fertility, why stress hormones like cortisol disrupt reproductive balance, and how to regulate your nervous system to boost your fertility. And because I love blending Western science and traditional Chinese medicine, we'll [00:02:00] also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system and how keeping these energies in balance is key for optimal fertility. So let's dive in.

So first I'm going to talk about the autonomic nervous system, and it is basically what is hidden in the background, taking care of your body at all times, whether you're conscious of it or not.

So for short, we can call it ANS. So the ANS controls involuntary functions like heart rate, digestion, and reproductive function. It has two main branches. One is called the sympathetic nervous system, and you may have heard this referred to as the fight or flight.

And the other is the parasympathetic nervous system, and that is considered the rest and digest. So if you want to think of this as the yin and yang, the yang is more active and it would be more of the fight or flight. Which isn't a bad thing 'cause you know, everything that we have in our [00:03:00] bodies are there for a reason.

And the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest, would be considered more of a yin, which is more in its potential and it's more calm and inert. So when these two systems are in balance, everything works really well, and ultimately we need both in order to survive. And that is why it's there in the first place.

But when stress takes over and the body shifts into survival mode, then this is considered more chronic stress. It's something that happens all the time. So we're not meant to have this So fight or flight mode happen chronically, we're meant to have it to take us out of danger, but we're not always in danger and we'll still feel it because of our stressful thoughts or stressful situations in our life will cause us to feel like we need to survive.

So when this happens chronically, it creates a sympathetic nervous system in overdrive and this can directly [00:04:00] impact fertility.

So just to recap on the yin and yang, if you haven't heard about this before, the yin is a more feminine, quiet, calm state. And it's more receptive. It's cooling. It is considered the moon, whereas the yang is the sun. It's more active.

It moves a lot. It moves quickly. It is more the fight or flight. It has a yang energy and the yang could be more heating. So like I said, it was, more representative of the sun and mobilizes energy for action.

Generally, although fight or flight and rest and digest are just one examples that have yin and yang qualities, we have yin and yang aspects of our bodies really for everything. And in order for our bodies to thrive in general, the yin and yang have to have a harmonious state.

So they need to work together as a couple. And when that happens in a harmonious balanced [00:05:00] state, that is when we thrive. And you can think about it as homeostasis. The body likes homeostasis and homeostasis is really vital in order for our bodies to thrive.

So we can also look at actions that we're doing. If we're doing things that are too young, too active, like type A personality type of thing, where we have to get everything done, everything on the checklist has to get done, and we're not really taking time out for the rest and digest, or for time to just get more.

restorative, restorative sleep, restorative rest, or do things that are less action oriented. When we don't have that balance, then we go into a more overdrive aspect of the young, and that can burn us out.

And it's important to know that when we get into a survival mode, our bodies and our minds are not focused on any kind of creativity whatsoever because we have to survive and the body's always going to favor survival over [00:06:00] reproduction. So if reproductive energy needs energy, then it's going to basically tap.

It's kind of like our savings account. And the body, if it's really depleted, it's going to tap into the savings account and use that for survival, which means that it's taking energy away from reproduction. And when energy is being taken away from reproduction, then it's not going to reproduce because that is not priority.

The priority is survival. So, Having this chronically can really, really wreck havoc on your hormone balance and really impact so many different systems. It can impact how you sleep. When people feel really stressed. Then they're going to have a really hard time falling asleep because their nervous system is constantly wired and ready.

You know, when we're in a survival mode, we're not going to want to sleep too deeply because look at our ancestors. If they knew that they were in danger. [00:07:00] They were going to be a lot more awake. You see a lot of cats with their ears open. Their nervous system is very receptive to any kind of noise. So small noises can wake us up and we're not going to be in a state where we can just let go and feel safe.

And ultimately being in the rest and digest mode really means feeling more safe. Another thing to consider is the fact that our rest and digest mode, I mean, based on the actual description of that means that it's restorative, the rest, but it also helps digestion. So we know that high stress that is chronic can lead to

issues with digestion. So Our digestive health is incredibly important when it comes to fertility health. In Chinese medicine, we look at the spleen and the stomach as a pair. And those organs are actually, even though the spleen in Western medicine is more something that works on our immune system, which the spleen and stomach do to some extent, [00:08:00] because when our digestive health is really healthy, our bodies have enough energy to fight off any outside impacts.

any disease, really. So it gives us the energy that we need. So we need our digestive system to work properly in order to nourish our bodies so that our bodies are able to get energy. Plus it also, with a healthy digestive system, you have less inflammation and a lot of imbalances with the digestive system or even our gut microbiome can impact.

autoimmune conditions or our immunity and have it a little more hyperactive because there's chronic low grade inflammation at all times. So those are things that are actually really, really important. And as we know, chronic stress can impact our digestive system. So we have a relationship really between the brain and the gut is absolutely real And it is mediated by something called the vagus nerve. 

And that is a cranial nerve that is in [00:09:00] charge and actually having it stimulated can impact your heart rate and it can impact your digestive system. SoSo it has a direct communication between the brain and it has a direct communication to the enteric nervous system.

Michelle Oravitz: So the enteric nervous system is basically our digestive nervous system. it runs from your mouth all the way down to your anus. So it's basically your whole digestive system has its own nervous system. And this is called the enteric nervous system. So your thoughts and your emotions and your emotional state can indirectly impact your nervous system of your gut through the vagus nerve.

So your thoughts and emotional state and stress levels can impact your gut health through the nervous system.

And of course, if your sleep is impacted, this is going to cause your hormones to get impacted because sleep helps restoration. It also helps deplete excess hormones and balance [00:10:00] hormones altogether. It also impacts our circadian rhythm. And for women, this is really important when it comes to their menstrual cycle, because our circadian rhythm, which is our 24 hour clock also impacts our infradian rhythm, which is the 28 to 29 day cycle, which is our menstrual cycle.

And when it comes to Chinese medicine, our heart health or heart state is really, really important when it comes to fertility health, it has a direct line of communication. And a really,a direct vessel to the uterus, which through something called the bow my channel.

And this is really important for conception. So many times when our hearts are not in the right place, then it can impact really how our uterus and our womb reacts. So it is one of the really most important things is really connecting to that heart center. And also we know that the love hormone oxytocin increases around ovulation and it increases [00:11:00] after intercourse.

So we know that there is something to that. It has to be there for a reason if it has a role to play in conception. Although this aspect has not really been studied as much in depth.  

We know that it wouldn't be there unless it had played a role. And

 

Most of the studies done on oxytocin really are geared towards labor and the body going into labor. So we know that if that's the case, and in Chinese medicine, the heart opens the uterus, that's its role. Then perhaps the heart opening the uterus opens it in labor, but perhaps it also opens it in receiving new life. Because as we can see, the levels increase around time. which is optimal time of conception around ovulation. And after a woman has an orgasm, it also increases for men as well. But in this case, I'm talking more about women because it has a role on the womb.

So in cases of men, [00:12:00] their sperm health can get impacted by a dysregulated nervous system. So it's important for men to also have The proper rest and proper nervous system balance. So we also know that with men it is important to have the Yin and Yang balance as well. When it comes to overall, you know, Yang is more of a male energy and they do have a lot of that heat.

But also the sperm is really surrounded by Yin fluids. So it is very Yin also in nature, even though it's very quick swimming. So it's important for both to be in balance for men as well. So again, going back to the nervous system, we're thinking about something that's active, but something that is also restorative and having those two opposites in balance.

So a couple of things that you can do to balance the nervous system, and this can be done for both the men and the women, is to do things like yoga or qigong, because [00:13:00] with moving the body, you're able to really restore a state of balance. safety in the body and where the body feels safe, it has more energy for its creativity.

So the body's creativity is fertility, but the same thing happens with the mind. When the mind is in chronic stress, the last thing it thinks about is creating and innovating. And usually when the mind feels safe, it will be more open we'll have more energy to create.

So another thing that can be done is grounding. Grounding is incredibly calming and it also calms the nervous system because most of the time it's done outside. Although you can get a grounding mat if need be, which is something that you can purchase online, and you can use indoors.

Grounding has an impact to regulate your circadian rhythm. It also helps you sleep really well at night. And it also has an impact on lowering inflammation on the body. This is scientifically proven and there's research on [00:14:00] this and there's studies about this and it's pretty amazing.

It also decreases the time for wound healing, which means that it heals the body really quickly. Native Americans have always talked about why it is so important and actually that the body can become sick if it doesn't ground. So grounding is incredibly important and one of the things that is often missed these days because we have rubber soles and our feet don't really have many opportunities to ground into the earth.

And what grounding really means is having your feet touch the earth, whether it's sand, dirt, or grass. An opportunity where it's able to touch the earth directly. And by doing so, It actually impacts your body's electromagnetic frequency.

Another thing that can be done besides yoga and qigong is also breath work. Breath work also has a direct impact on the mind. When your mind is nervous or stressed out, you typically will have that [00:15:00] reflect in your breath by being short what happens is when we're more relaxed, we actually breathe slower and deeper.

So by breathing slower and deeper, you're actually able to impact the body. and create and induce a more calming effect immediately.

And also by using belly breath, you can use the diaphragm. So it's diaphragmatic breathing, which can also impact your nervous system and calm it down. Something else you can do is humming. And by humming, you're creating a certain vibration that can impact your vagus nerve.

So it basically stimulates the vagus nerve which can also have a very calming effect on your nervous system.

You can also listen to music. So the sound vibration in certain types of music, not all music can have a very calming effect on your nervous system. And examples for that are solfeggio frequencies [00:16:00] and even sound bowls

and even classical music. So those are sounds that can create more coherence and order in your mind and your body. Something else that you can do is also do some heart math exercises. Heart math institute is something that I would definitely suggest looking into.

And what they study is the connection between the heart and the brain. And when your nervous system is more calm, it shows. And when your heart brain coherence has increased, there's more coherence and order and that induces a state of more calm and a more restorative state in your body.

And of course I am very biased, but, I am very big on acupuncture, which is really how I got into it. I started out as a patient myself and acupuncture, the practice of acupuncture and getting treatments for acupuncture can be incredibly beneficial for your nervous system.

It is so powerful isbecause it gets you into a state of deep relaxation. [00:17:00] And when you're able to deeply relax, your body is able to restore itself and regenerate and repair.

So on that topic, one of the ways that it does that is using ear points, but you can actually use your fingers and massage your own ears because your whole body is reflected in your ears. You could do the same thing for your feet as well. And I would suggest also starting out a really nice sleep hygiene routine, which means lowering lights about an hour to two hours before you go to sleep.

That is going to help restore your sleep. The more sleep you get, the more calm and at ease your nervous system is going to be. So those are my tips for calming and restoring your nervous system.

So that concludes my tips on balancing your nervous system. and I hope that this episode shed some light on how intertwined our nervous system is with our fertility health And why it's so important to [00:18:00] nurture a balanced nervous system state.

If you have any questions and have any ideas for future episodes. Feel free to reach out to me on instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility

I'm very active on instagram. So that is the best way to find me

so thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day. [00:19:00] 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception.

In this episode, you’ll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey.

Key Takeaways: 

• Kerry’s personal fertility journey and challenges with IVF

• The pivotal moment when she conceived naturally after stepping away from treatments

• How fertility yoga supports the nervous system and reproductive health

• The importance of feeling safe and creating space within the body

• Practical tips on incorporating breathwork, movement, and mindfulness for fertility

Guest Bio: Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about Kerry HindsFollow Kerry Hinds on Instagram Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

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Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

 

Transcript:

# TWF: Kerry Hinds

[00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes.

and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children.

Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office.

**Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you.

**Kerry:** Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today.

**Michelle:** Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise.

It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga.

**Kerry:** Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with.

Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system.

And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life.

Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman.

And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me,

**Michelle:** oh

**Kerry:** did all the

**Michelle:** What a great friend

**Kerry:** I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language.

So for anybody who's doing this,

fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training.

I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this.

And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification.

And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it.

Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this.

You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now.

LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles.

Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF.

We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million.

Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant.

**Michelle:** Wow

**Kerry:** intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right?

So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga?

And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was,

**Michelle:** It's true

**Kerry:** Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining.

what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution.

**Michelle:** Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth.

That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable.

And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get.

Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important

**Kerry:** Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't

going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're.

You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that.

I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally.

So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm.

**Michelle:** I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe.

And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe.

**Kerry:** Yeah.

**Michelle:** When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that.

And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in 

many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy.

**Kerry:** Yep.

**Michelle:** Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system.

**Kerry:** 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system.

So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just 

**Michelle:** Yeah. I love that. Yes.

**Kerry:** Because what it is, it

**Michelle:** Yup.

**Kerry:** It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again.

And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right? 

**Michelle:** Right. it's

**Kerry:** explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things.

**Michelle:** Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system.

We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system.

And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound.

So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our 

bodies. 

**Kerry:** Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to.

And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me?

Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there.

And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built.

And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights,

quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert. 

So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that.

Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga. 

**Michelle:** I love restorative yoga.

**Kerry:** Me too. 

**Michelle:** Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now

**Kerry:** Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like, 

Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right?

And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go.

So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard.

**Michelle:** Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog.

You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly

**Kerry:** Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming.

And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system.

**Michelle:** Yeah. It's not amazing.

**Kerry:** You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good

**Michelle:** Yeah. 

**Kerry:** like 

I just 

**Michelle:** who doesn't like that?

**Kerry:** Yeah Yeah,

**Michelle:** That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga 

or other types of yoga?

**Kerry:** Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey.

So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things.

And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle.

So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right?

So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space.

So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well.

So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right?

We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga.

For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on.

So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones.

Whew. 

**Michelle:** I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest.

So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension.

**Kerry:** Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah.

**Michelle:** And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra.

And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety.

**Kerry:** Yeah.

**Michelle:** So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure.

**Kerry:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time.

And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga.

It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that.

But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level.

**Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah.

**Kerry:** I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture.

Yeah. It's like a seal.

**Michelle:** again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue.

**Kerry:** Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras 

for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera.

And it was actually very profound. 

And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two?

It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly

**Michelle:** It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements.

He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago.

And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine.

That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so

sometimes 

doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics.

And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros.

And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we 

see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies.

I can nerd.

I 

**Kerry:** I, I'm going to go, I'm

going 

to, 

**Michelle:** all day long.

**Kerry:** I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny, 

but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness,

spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving.

And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space.

We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah.

I 

**Michelle:** that. 

**Kerry:** Yeah. The

**Michelle:** Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates.

I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space.

**Kerry:** Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much?

Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there.

So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space.

it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking.

**Michelle:** Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly?

**Kerry:** Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns.

The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes.

It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds.

I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go 

## Marker

**Kerry:** progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want.

Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious.

But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected.

And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility?

If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight

**Michelle:** Yeah,

**Kerry:** and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful.

really

**Michelle:** is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor

to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to 

**Kerry:** it.

to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored 

**Michelle:** have time. you have time. 

**Kerry:** Yeah, I 

know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most?

Like the two week wait, perfect time,

um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most.

**Michelle:** Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff 

**Kerry:** too. Me too. Me too. I

**Michelle:** I think we're on the same page.

**Kerry:** I am

**Michelle:** fascinating. 

**Kerry:** nerdy about it. And,

**Michelle:** Yeah.

**Kerry:** and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here,

**Michelle:** 

the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women.

I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds

**Kerry:** Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it 

if I 

can't 

**Michelle:** said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast,

**Kerry:** yes 

**Michelle:** guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest.

Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very 

**Kerry:** thanks for the shout out for the podcast.

Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever.

**Michelle:** for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways?

**Kerry:** sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health.

But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and

it's 

finally 

**Michelle:** That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool.

**Kerry:** Yeah. Thank you.

**Michelle:** Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story.

Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing.

Perfect. 

**Kerry:** Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00] 

 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness, a pharmacist, researcher, and glutathione expert, to explore the critical role glutathione plays in fertility and overall health. Dr. Patel shares his journey from traditional pharmacy to developing a breakthrough delivery system for glutathione through the skin, and why this antioxidant is essential for protecting egg and sperm quality.

In this episode, you’ll learn how oxidative stress impacts fertility, why diet alone might not be enough, and how his innovative technology can support the body’s natural detoxification process. Be sure to tune in for this fascinating conversation packed with practical advice and insights for anyone on the fertility journey! Key Takeaways: 

• Glutathione is the body’s most abundant and powerful antioxidant.

• It plays a vital role in protecting reproductive health by reducing oxidative stress.

• Most oral supplements don’t get absorbed effectively, making Dr. Patel's skin-delivery innovation a game-changer.

• A healthy lifestyle and cysteine-rich foods are essential for maintaining glutathione levels.

Guest Bio: Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness is a highly sought-after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. Since 1999, he has collaborated with physicians to custom-develop medications and design patient-specific drug and nutrition regimens. As the pharmacist of choice for celebrities, CEOs, and physicians alike, Dr. Patel is recognized for his innovative approach to health and wellness. He is the author of The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy, which distills over a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione. His patented technology for delivering glutathione topically has revolutionized how the body absorbs this essential molecule. From this breakthrough, he also created the Auro GSH Antioxidant Delivery System, a skincare line designed to deliver antioxidants more efficiently and effectively than ever before.

Websites/Social Media Links:

• Learn more about Dr. Patel’s Products

• Follow Dr. Patel on Facebook

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------------------------------- Transcript:

# TWF: Dr. Nayan Patel

[00:00:00] [00:01:00] 

 

**Michelle Oravitz:** So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Patel.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the time today.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, I'm very excited to talk about what we are going to discuss, which is glutathione. But before we get to that, I would love to get your backstory and how you got into the work that you're doing today.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Oh my god, absolutely. So start off as a pharmacist, as a career as a pharmacist, and after graduation [00:02:00] from pharmacy school. In Southern California, we were, we were trained to take care of the patient's needs and medications. And very quickly I realized that the medications we have at that time were actually not solving any problem.

They were just maintaining people's problems. And very, very early on, you know, you have an aha moment in your life. That oh my god, what what did I just do right? Oh, I'm just not solving any problems So I had to turn my career to a completely different angle no former educations in in making medications or doing compounding or customizing medications that dive into the that practice and 25 years later here we are today and looking back at that and said, what a journey, what a turning point I had, because it shaped me for who I am today. I had the privilege of making medications and design treatment plans and drug plans for so many individuals helping them in their health and wellness journey. And then all [00:03:00] roads led to me to a discovery of a novel technology that can deliver glutathione. And it all started because I was just curious to find out how we can help people solve their own problems instead of trying to figure out medications to solve the problems. Right? Even though glutathione is not a, it's, it's something that body produces internally we're using it as a supplement today, but. And overall my goal was not to do anything and just enhance the body's own ability to to defend itself. And so here we are today it's a very interesting career for me for sure.

**Michelle Oravitz:** For 

sure. And first of all, just for people listening that don't really know much about glutathione, I'd love for you to share really what it is and also why it could be so challenging to supplement with.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely. so the glutathione in a nutshell Is three amino acids coming together in a single chain. It's a one of the smallest form of peptides we have You two amino acid chains, three amino [00:04:00] acid chains, four, five, 30, 40, 50, and thousands of the chains as well. The simplest form, of course, is glutathione, which is about three amino acids coming together. It's by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. And if that's produced so much, we ought to know what it's supposed to do for us. And so that's what my research came back for 140 years that we have known about glutathione. Nobody's ever figured out how to actually get inside your body. And so, 60 years ago, 70 years ago, we had a medication approved by FDA to enhance glutathione level. And as of today, that is the only medication that has been approved ever. In the whole,

in the whole world, which is N acetylcysteine, which is one of the amino acids that's been used to produce chlorothione. And that's the only thing that has been available for the last 60, 70 years.

**Michelle Oravitz:** So let's talk about what so we definitely, that's one of the things that um, I've been doing for egg health and also sperm [00:05:00] quality, cause it's such a high potent antioxidant. And one of the things that I have always suggested is N acetylcysteine because that's the precursor and we knew that that was like the one way that the body was able to produce it.

Okay. Thank you. But then there were some supplements that still supplement with glutathione, liposomal, like different ways, which I know are not really shelf stable. So there's always been challenges with that, but before we continue on with that, I'd love for people to hear, like, what glutathione can benefit, how it can benefit the body.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** So, I understand your audience is interested more in the fertility side of the whole thing. So, you're dealing with rather younger individuals overall which is a good sign because younger patients have, everything at their disposal for the body to respond to even the smallest amount of nutrients that they receive. If the same amount of nutrients is given to an 85 year old person, they're not [00:06:00] going to feel anything, right? But if 20 year old person gets a small amount of good nutrition, they respond very, very well. And so I want to make sure that people understand that

**Michelle Oravitz:** And also just to kind of mention um, sometimes we have 40 year olds too, that are trying to conceive or like trying to do IVF. So just kind of like, yeah, the whole,

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** They're still spring chicken to

**Michelle Oravitz:** okay. Okay. It's good for them to hear that.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** I mean, I've helped people in the very, I mean, in the late forties to get babies as well. So it's

not something that's not doable. It's just gets incredibly hard after the age of 40. So it's, not that easy to do so, but the glutathione has multiple properties and understanding what glutathione does is, monument in over. in our therapies because with the two things that we do know is it's the ability for glutathione as an antioxidant to detoxify, neutralize all the free radicals in your body. But the second component is also help you detoxify by conjugating [00:07:00] inside your liver with metabolites and chemicals binding to them.

So we can basically get rid of it from from your body. So the two functions that we do know That exists today. There's a lot more research still existing that we need to do. So we, we still are urging researchers to go back and use this new technology product and see if we can find out more things that glutathione can do for us.

So one two the sperm or the egg quality is dependent on how your body is able to neutralize those free radicals. Those free radicals are actually toxic to all the embryonic membranes and embryos itself and the quality of the sperm and the egg itself. And neutralizing those free radical of body, there's three ways to do that part.

One, you take outside products like vitamin C, and vitamin E, and CoQ10, and and C60s, and I mean, methylene blues, I mean, there's a slew of products that says, oh, we are so called antioxidants, right? So that's [00:08:00] category one. The category two of the products are produced endogenously inside your body are enzymes like catalase, supra oxide, puase, SOD, for short glutathione peroxidase, or GPX for short.

So these are the enzymes that the body produces to deal with the oxidative stress or the free radicals. Okay, so those are the category one are the category two. The third category is only one product, which is glutathione. And if you look at it, the body produces so much of glutathione, and the effects of glutathione is so powerful, that if you combine the category one, which is all the antioxidants from outside sources, and the enzymes that your body produces, those two combine, Glutathione can surpass the antioxidant properties. And so I want listeners to understand very carefully is that the glutathione needs to be a basic cornerstone in everybody's arsenal. Every medicine chest in the world should have a [00:09:00] bottle says glutathione And in that bottle either you have a product or it have a note saying that eat healthy food to Let your body produce its own glutathione Either way that note has to be there on every medicine chest out there and you're right There's so much noise out there I want to cut to the noise today because if you just put your favorite search engine or your ai robot is going to tell you hey glirathion, there are a thousand different products out there.

Choose one You Right. And as a consumer it's very hard to find out what to choose correctly and people hide behind a great technologies that that exists in the world and said, Oh, my, my product uses this technology. So it's the best one in the world. And you mentioned liposome technology, by the way, I just will let, you know, we were one of the very first few people that actually use liposome to produce the first liposomal glutathione. This was 25 plus years ago, right? And we made the liposome because at that time that was the [00:10:00] best technology that existed in the pharmaceutical world. And the doctor that owned the patents for those came to me and said, Hey, we've been very successful in making this for medications. Can you help me make nutraceuticals with it?

Like vitamin C and CoQ10 and PQQ and S Xanthine and Glutathione and so on and so forth. And so we made the products for that doctor. And then a couple of years later. Some work, some did not work. Gluten was one of the products that did not work. So I go back and says, why is that working on everybody? The question I always ask is, hey, it helped my girlfriend. How come it's not helping me? Or it helped my sister. Why, how come it's not helping me? What, what, what am I, how am I different

than the other human beings? and in reality, only your face is different. Internally, we are identical.

A body has the same heart, the same organs, everything is the same, right?

So we have not changed for the last 40, 000 plus years, [00:11:00] how to expect that I'm different than my sister, or I'm different than my girlfriend, or whatever, right? Maybe your genomic mixture is different, but your overall organs and organ systems are identical. And so to me, I said, okay, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If I get absorption in one person, I guess you should get absorption in everybody. What's the rate limiting factor? Why is it not happening? And so I didn't have answers at that time. I did not know what to do. So next story is that, okay, you know what? I'll make the intravenous form of glutathione. Hey, if I inject him into the bloodstream, my job's done. Again, took me a few months to figure that portion out how to make that part. And yes, This is long story short, we were Well, again, we were one of the first company pharmacy early on in 2001 to make the injectable form of glutathione. Now, very quickly, we realized that the effects of this glutathione was very short, right?

And then I looked back in the research and said, there was a study done in 1991 [00:12:00] saying that if once you inject glutathione, it only stays in the body for between four It takes five to 15 minutes and everything gets destroyed or gets, get, get, it gets into the urine and you pee it out, but an hour and a half later, there was an increase of cysteine, which is one of the amino acids that went up in the blood. And so the researchers concluded that the body was breaking down this glutathione and cysteine was getting reabsorbed by the body and cysteine is being used for your body to produce its own glutathione. I said, okay, I don't care how the body makes it. As long as the body has a gluten, I don't care. But the results were very short lived. And I don't know if you know this thing, but back in early 2000s, one of the doctors came to me. I said, Hey, if it's short lived, that's okay. Let me take you to Vegas because when people drink, they deplete their glutathione levels. If it only stays for 15 minutes, I can revive somebody who's passed out drunk of their minds and I can get them.

So. He literally took this product to Vegas and [00:13:00] start helping patients. I read scripts for those

kinds of things. And again, I have nothing to do with it. I, unfortunately, I was just the supplier and I was just the maker of the product, but we saved so many lives. We helped so many people, but we were, we learned one thing that the action was not long term.

And if I want the long term benefits, because if it's one of your patient, if it's one of your listener, who's, who's trying to get pregnant she, or he has to plan for A 30 day cycle, not a 15 minute. Give me some push right now and I'll be done. No, it's a

30 day cycle. You have to plan everything methodically, right?

What am I supposed to do from day one to day seven and from day seven to day 14. And after ovulation, what do I do? And after post ovulation, if there's an embryo implantation, what do I do? And so on and so forth. It's a, it's a whole process and your body needs to be clean this whole time. And none of the products were actually getting the results I was looking for.

Later on, I found out, this was 2011 [00:14:00] University of Texas in Austin did a study on the liposome technology product of glirathione. And what they found out was same thing that they saw in intravenous form. The body actually breaks down the glirathione, never absorbs a single molecule of it. Absorbs the cysteine and cysteine is later used to produce his own glutathione. And the end story is, it still works. It still works. But people need to understand, just because it works, it does not mean your body absorbed it.

And there's a there's a difference between that one and maybe some people may not appreciate that part But I do appreciate that part because in my case i'm dealing with thousands of patients across the country across the globe now And I want to make sure that I want to give assurance to everybody that hey if I give you a glutathione product No matter what it is going to get inside your body [00:15:00] and absorb it And so the liposome technology product was great until now People got a lot of people got results for almost 80 got results from it but not because it absorbs it because the body was able to Conjugate or take the cysteine and make its own glirathione today Today the things have changed now.

Why? because 15 20 years ago We started doing gene testing gene snips You Right at that time it was nobody can afford it. I was fifteen twenty thousand dollars for a blood test Oh gosh, no, nobody can afford that today Same test is 200 bucks 300 bucks,

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right. 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** right? So now what's happened is that now everybody's doing these gene testings And finally got hey, do I have gene mutation where my body cannot produce gluothione

if the answer is yes Then I don't care how much product you take from outside sources, the body is not [00:16:00] able to effectively produce glutathione correctly all the time.

And so that to me is one more proof, one more proof that we need a product that your body can actually accept it, incorporate into their own DNA and use it when it needs to. Anyways, I just went off too many

tangents no, Thanks very much, interesting. I want you to continue. So how did you find out and, and like how did you discover the product that you have now and what kind of technology does it use and how does it really impact the body?

Absolutely. Those

**Michelle Oravitz:** nerd in me wants to know

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Yeah.

All great, great questions. And I want to, I really want to be an open book. I don't want to hide any information from anybody so that I'll be more than happy to open it up and let everybody know. So earlier when I first started the book. So we had a, we had a couple of barriers.

One, what we knew was the body's not going to take any peptides, any amino acid chains to get it to and incorporate it into their own DNA. [00:17:00] What we, what I found out was the body has to make 100 percent of all peptides in the body, the body has to make it.

Right. So we knew that I knew that part very early on. So I said, okay, there is no way on earth I'll be able to make a product that your body can use it up. Okay, so now I had to figure out Okay, how do I get this simple tripeptide three amino acid chain peptides into the body? So I first of all, I want to do, I want to create a stable molecule because if I have a stable molecule in my lab, I can work with it.

If it's unstable, I don't have time to really experiment on it, right? So my first goal was to make a stable molecule. So that we achieved pretty fast. It took us a couple of years when we got the stable molecule. We took it by mouth. Again what we saw was Sistine went up, so it was not working really, it was getting broken down. We scored into the nose, I said, and if the nose was burning, I said, oh, nobody's going to use this on a daily basis. Of course not, right? It's not a, it's not a fun thing to do. I knew the [00:18:00] injectables was a little bit of an uphill battle because it requires FD approval and all those things. I said, you know what? The only route that was remaining was skin route.

And of course, skin is a physical barrier, right? So it's a physical barrier that I have to overcome. And the physical barrier is, is a particle size barrier. So I had to reduce the particle size so small, It can get through the cracks or the pores of your skin and get inside your body. So that was the first challenge I had, which we were able to crack the code in about a couple of years. We had to take this peptides, twist it in such a form that doesn't get broken apart and gets a small, you know, like when you twist the towel, you know how it gets smaller and smaller and smaller, but you twist enough, it can get really small. And so that's what we did with this molecule. It forces microscopically, and we were able to reduce the particle size to much smaller. We got to the skin. The bigger challenge is this glutathione is inside your cells. So now the issue is that, [00:19:00] okay, we release a particle size, we get through your skin. Now, so the physical barrier, we, we all work in the physical barrier. The second was a chemical barrier. Because the cell wall is a lock and key.

Hey, you say the magic word and the castle opens up and you can go inside. But if you don't say the magic word, the castle will never open for you. So the question then becomes is that what does the body needs?

What does the cell needs to survive? All your mitochondria, the energy powerhouse in your body is in the cells, right? And that to produce the energy, what you need is carbohydrates and sugars. I cannot give you sugars because I give you diabetes and we already have an epidemic of diabetes in the United States across the world nowadays so I said, okay, how do I get a polysaccharide sugar type molecule?

That doesn't doesn't do anything about the sugar is completely inert FDA has tested it out and it's completely safe to give to anybody pregnancy no pregnancy children's everybody And can I use that molecule? So we found [00:20:00] dextrin technology. This was a technology that has been out for about 20, 30 years now, but there are no good medications in the world.

As even in today's state, there's not too many medications out there. People are still dabbling around. those technology products. And so we use the technology to literally, instead of working with medications, we start working with glutathione. We do the sugar molecule and stuff inside with glutathione. It's like, do you need M& Ms? Do you need

**Michelle Oravitz:** No, not anymore, 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Not anymore, 

Okay, Good. Good. Do you, do you eat M& Ms for the peanuts or for the chocolate?

**Michelle Oravitz:** I guess well, I used to like the chocolate ones when I was really, really little. And then later on peanuts,

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Exactly. But the thing is, you don't eat M& Ms for peanuts, you eat M& Ms for the chocolate.

But the

peanut inside, if you get a peanut, do you spit it out? Or you know what? It's not so bad. I can use it up.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's like I compare it to like, you know, the being able to take those pill things for your dogs where you put it inside a treat and get the dog to eat it. And[00:21:00] 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** That's exactly right, right? So I took the carbohydrate, the sugar molecule, stuffed the glutathione inside, you know, so the body, when the carbohydrate hits the cell wall, the cell goes, oh, I can use this up. Right? And sucks it in. Inside is glutathione.

But he goes, well, I can use this up too.

It's not something new to me, so I can use this up too. Right? And so now, it's like you somebody tells you that, hey, I have a billion dollar coming to you, but it's coming in the mail. Well, that's not helping me right now, but if it hits my wallet, gosh, I can spend it today. Right? So, you can check the mail, it's in a transit, but until it hits the wallet, you cannot do anything about it.

Saving glutathione, if the glutathione is in your body, but it's not inside your cell, the, the cell says that, okay, I need the glutathione, but it's way out there. It's not in my cell. I cannot use it up. Here we got inside the cell directly. [00:22:00] When we did that part, like magic just happened. All of a sudden, the body has a product.

The body needs it. The money's in the wallet right now. I can go spend it today. And the body can actually use the glutathione immediately To start doing what? Two things that we know of as of right now. One is start neutralizing all the free radicals. That's number one.

Number two, start getting my liver cleaned up and start detoxifying all this, all this metabolism in my system.

When you do those things up, all of a sudden your whole body or your temple, your, your the sanctuary in your body starts getting healed from inside, starts getting cleaner. And all of a sudden the, main thing, which is our sperm and the eggs. Are not been invaded or not been attacked by this toxic chemicals.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right?

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** And so that's, there's, there's my technology. We discovered this in 2007, as you can imagine 2007 it was too far [00:23:00] ahead of the game.

There was nothing in the world that exists something even close to this thing. And so there was no studies being done. There's no research articles published. There's nothing out there in the world that I can fall back and say, Hey, go ahead and use it safe.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** do that part. So it took me another 13, 14 more years to literally do everything that I can do on my own. I have no funding.

I did everything on my own. I put every single thing I have back into this to basically research it out. Apply for the patents, all my work that I did. I, in fact, I published a book about three, four years ago. All the work I did for the first 13 years, I put in a book. I said, Hey. Guys, here's read it, right? This is this is all my work and it's just success stories that I've given to patients and clients and And found friends and family that uses product and and see how how much benefit they got in different areas of life right if you're an athlete versus if you have metabolic disorders versus you have [00:24:00] metabolism, defects if you're on the spectrum because spectrum patients have some sort of Metabolism issues of detoxification issues that they cannot clear the toxins out of the body

And they are the autism or aspergers or whatever they got right?

So

i've all the stories and I have some

stories about horses and and dogs and how how they

it helped them as well in their in their wellness, thing as well as anyways So that's all the stories in the book the glutton revolution. That's my book. But after everything got done We had a pandemic

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** the product was not even released yet You And the pandemic comes around and I've been begged by all the doctors around the country.

I said, oh my god Please give us the access to the glutathione because I was working with doctors So they knew about this product, but none of the consumers knew knew about it

And so that's when we actually did a soft launch. We didn't have a bottling. We didn't have a boxing. We have nothing at that time No website, we had a website, but it was like a nothing nothing crazy So 2021 [00:25:00] was the first launch of the product now we are here today, but, so anyways, so

thanks for asking me this question, but I just wanna make sure the story

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, no, I love the story because I think also I have very, very smart listeners, I'll be honest, like with a fertility journey, they are so educated. You know, it's such a motivator to really educate yourself. And a lot of times if I work with people in person online, I see the most educated people, they really know a lot.

So I wanted to kind of have a background to really explain how the process works. Cause I feel like it's very empowering for them. And the two things that I know, like an N acetylcysteine. So that works as a precursor to get the cysteine. And then from that gets the body to produce glutathione. And then your product works through the skin and then is enveloped by the carbohydrates, right.

Or the yeah, 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** is, it, it's, it's a polysaccharides is what we call 'em. And it's embedded inside that one. It's the, analogy I can [00:26:00] give you is that, hey if you need money, there's two ways to get money. One is I'll give you a job. You work at it. And you, you share your trades and then for the reward, I'll give you money. The second part is here's the money in your wallet. I'm not going to give you too much of it. I'm just going to give you enough to survive the rest. You still have to go make it yourself. Right. And so the second part, I give you enough to survive. Your body says to make the rest of the glutathione from the foods you eat and things like that.

but a lot of people need, just need a little edge over everybody else. So

I just give them extra glutathione to make sure that they are able to use up right now, because when you have a problem today, if you need the money today, and if you give you a job, I said, that's good, but I need the money now.

I don't need money two weeks

from now. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** And so that makes it very, very useful. And in, in certain cases, I'm not saying that is good for everybody.

What I am saying that is good for everybody, but the product may not be good for everybody,[00:27:00] 

but having a healthier lifestyle, having the cysteine rich diet.

Is absolutely a must I

don't care what what age you are, right?

That is absolutely a must

So if you do that, if you have a healthy lifestyle, that means avoid the toxins that depletes the glutathione levels

Having the diet that consumes that gives all the amino acids those two things combined Will will give you a fighting chance for long periods of time where you don't need any supplementations

The supplementation is very good for people that need extra help or temporarily

And then once your body gets under control then you can stop it, too

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And then, so the couple of questions that come to my mind is you know, I'm, I'm a, also a big believer, obviously it sounds like it's doing something, but I'm also a big believer that like nature has a very a method for its madness. And I'm wondering, is there a reason why it's under such lock to allow um, glutathione in by itself, rather than having the body produce it?

It was just [00:28:00] kind of like something that came to my mind. 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** know. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** you were mentioning that.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** and you're right. I mean, the body is, is equipped to deal with, because any peptides that you, that the body can accept from outside sources can actually get embedded into your DNA.

And so having the purity, what if you give somebody else's DNA inside your body?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Wow.

Right. Think about it.

Think about it. You're injecting somebody else's DNA. Some, some of the protein

from something else that is not made by humans. The body is going to start going to cycle, react to it and say, Oh my God, what if well, we have vaccines right nowadays. What are the vaccines are proteins by outside of viruses, right? How about we use those embedded into our own DNA?

So that's the, that's a scary part to me. And so that's the reason why a body does not allow anything from outside sources to get inside your body.

It's very [00:29:00] very protective. Glutathione we do know is produced endogenously. It's

inside your body, making sure that the glutathione the raw materials that we use Is of the highest highest quality.

I would say 99. 99 percent pure is what we need. Otherwise, we just going to have a chance of making sure we have a chance that we can harm our body. And so

just so for when I, when I first heard that in 2007, I quickly, I realized that I have to bring manufacturing in house.

I can't trust anybody to do this for me.

It literally took me eight years to build my own plant out

small plant But just enough so that I can control every single thing making sure the water that I use is the highest quality Everything that goes inside is for the highest quality products. That's why I had to Ensure that so I brought everything in house.

It was too costly to make it It's still too costly to make it and to [00:30:00] reduce the cost. I had to make sure that I I am, I'm going straight from the manufacturers to the consumers and there's no too many middlemen in between to reduce the cost down.

And so we've been doing whatever it takes and you're right.

The by doesn't take it. So having that technology to bypass this is somehow empowering that we can do that part. But it's scary is that we can use the same technology to, to hurt somebody too.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And thank you for answering that. And also, my question is, what have you seen in the research? Like, what have you seen short term, long term, because you, it sounds like you guys have been working with us for a long time, in the response of people's bodies and conditions.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely. So just FYI of a human body gets everything gets, gets redone every 30, 60, 90 to 120 days.

That means you get new cells in your bodies all the time.[00:31:00] 

The body is constantly constantly making new cells, better cells so that you can rejuvenate yourself from inside out, right? So the body is, it's like you're having a house, constantly remodeling your house from inside all the time, right?

So no matter what happens, if I make a hole in the wall, you know what, a few months from now it'll be a brand new wall again. I don't have to do anything, just have to wait and don't make it further damage the wall, right? And

it'll be repaired by itself. So the body repairs itself. The issue is that. The glutathione can actually improve the repair process to the point where it repairs better.

And you can feel the effects much, much faster.

Now certain organs take them 12 to 18 months to repair. For

example, liver, it takes a long time to repair. So, any, if you're looking for benefits for liver health that may take anywhere from 12 to 18 months. Even though if I have doctors I work with all the time and the doctor says, Oh, my, the liver function tests are coming normal. I said, just because the tests have [00:32:00] no, that doesn't mean the liver is normal, right?

I guess you're right. Absolutely right. So they do ultrasounds. They do scans and things like that to figure that portion out. But again, it takes them 12 to 18 months to fix it.

At a short term people when they have have issues with oxidative stress.

The biggest issue I've seen is these are, these are people that have some gene mutations that cannot produce, they cannot conjugate and make enough glutathione. They have this brain fog that has been lingering on for decades, decades, right? For 10, 20 years sometimes. Of course, these are older people.

These are not 20 year olds. And so they've been struggling and All of a sudden, they use a gluotide and about 15 minutes later, they can just see the, just brain just opens up. Now, it is not a, it's not a something to improve your memory. It's not this magic pill that you see in the movies. It's here,

one pill, my brain just fires up and I'm, I can

think and I can do anything I want to do.

It's not that pill, it's a

**Michelle Oravitz:** but I'm sure it can prevent things like Alzheimer's or things like that. Mm hmm, [00:33:00] mm

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** well, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and things like that as well. But in the short term, when people see the brain fog clears up, all it's doing is reducing oxidative stress.

**Michelle Oravitz:** hmm.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** If you need to reduce oxidative stress, so I've seen results as much as 5 to 15 minutes. Up to two to four weeks in most

individual And two three to six months in I would say 99 of the people they see some improvement in their health and wellness and they're most of them are working with the physicians So they're doing some blood tests before and after the doctors are saying what the heck you're doing I don't know what you're doing, but keep on doing it.

It's very good for you. So 

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's really interesting. And then also, if you were to get, you know, outside source of glutathione, the body feels the glutathione, will it make an impact on the body's own production of glutathione now that it feels that it has more.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely. And the thing is [00:34:00] the the biggest concern that people have that hey What if if I take glutathione from outside sources with my body shut down his own production?

And yes and no, I think the body probably may reduce the production, it probably will not shut it down because keep in mind when we're comparing, because most people have been burned by, hey, if you take steroids, your body will, it'll blow up like a balloon and because the body is not able to make its own regular, its own steroid production, which is true, which is 100 percent true. endocrine system is tightly regulated from your gonadal hormones, your pituitary and your ovaries and your testes and to the brain, which is the pituitary the hypothalamus, right? So they both work together, your brain tells your ovaries to produce the hormones, the ovaries produce the hormones, the ovaries cannot produce the hormones, The brain is going to keep on sending signals.

Can you do more? Do more? Do more? Because I can't do anymore. I'm already tired. I'm burnt out. I'm just, I'm shriveled up. I can't do anymore. Right? Versus if you [00:35:00] take a hormone from outside sources, it affects straight to the pituitary. And the pituitaries will shut down and say, Hey,

no more producing hormones.

You got too much. I don't know where it's

coming from, 

but 

**Michelle Oravitz:** like a thermostat, 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Right? It's a negative feedback. But when it comes

to glutathione, glutathione is not triggered by any brain or hypothalamus. Glutathione is taking three

amino acids together, two enzymes, two molecules of ATP, which is energy, and one molecule of NAD

for electron transfer. All this to come together to make glutathione. Right?

Now this same energy, ATP energy, NAD energy is being used in thousands of chemical reactions that happens every single day.

So keep in mind, if your body does not have to produce glutathione, your energy is never wasted. It's used to do other reactions all day long. But the good thing is that glutathione is by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. [00:36:00] And after a couple of weeks or so, the body is saying, hey, everything is not working great. Now for two weeks later you see some increasing energy because now the energy is is Getting excess and your body goes.

Oh my god. I have excess energy now all of a sudden. It's not a car It's not a caffeine type energy It's not like jumping up and down type of energy, but you do feel good from inside out

Right. You do feel good. And all of a sudden

you pick up other habits, walking, jogging, cycling, you know, or just going out and just, you just have this, this energy inside your body that you want to do other things.

You just feel alive from inside.

And so, and then when you stop the glutathione, the body says, okay, oh, should we have, we need more glutathione. So the first energy goes towards producing glutathione, but if you have enough glutathione, that energy has been used to produce other peptides. Keep in mind, a

muscle needs what?

6, 100 amino acids coming together. Takes a lot of

energy to produce muscle fiber.

So if you're not [00:37:00] using the energy to produce glutathione, hey, hopefully it goes to producing more muscle mass. I'm hoping for that.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. . And is there like a limit on how long you should take it? you know, is there a limit that you have?

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** So, I do know that your body needs glutathione until the last day you die.

So, until that day, you have to take it.

After you're dead, I'm not sure if your body needs glutathione or not. So, that's a joke. I'm sorry. But your body needs glutathione to survive. Every single day. So the needs are going to be the endless. the better

question to me is that do I need to supplement every single day of my

life? That's a way better question for me to answer is to that that question came to me in my mind long time ago as well. And so what I have found out is that the body needs glutathione. to survive. Your body has the ability to produce glutathione, plenty of it on a daily basis. And what

I found in [00:38:00] my research that up until about the age of 30, there is no need for any supplementation. None.

Improve your diet, reduce your exposure to toxicities. You should be fine.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right? 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Between 32, 35, if you have a healthier lifestyle, don't drink alcohol. Don't expose yourself to heavy levels of toxicities.

Don't do sunbathing a whole lot. And having a very clean diet, you might still be okay. 35 to 40, I would say 80, 90 percent of the people may need to supplement gluathione, over

40, I have yet to find somebody who has normal levels of gluathione and so the question that I ask is, Hey, what's Well, my mom in the fifties and sixties never had to use a gluathide, and she lived for long periods of time, so why is it today, right? But keep in mind, at that time, sixty years ago, maybe the world population was three billion, now we are eight billion population. And who are the biggest polluters in the world? Is it the [00:39:00] animals or the humans?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Humans.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Humans.

Animals don't even wear clothing. They don't even do anything. They don't have to build any houses and, and destroy the world. They just live, enjoy the world and leave the world the way it was when they came in. Us humans wants to fly, wants to build a hundred story buildings and wants to drive cars and wants to do all kinds of things. So we are the biggest polluters and the pollution has literally what more than doubled in the last 60 years. So if we say that the, the modernist society is polluted, the answer is

absolutely yes. And it's not, it's not like we are turning the tables and we're going on the other way around. So like it or not, nobody's willing to give the modern day conveniences at this point.

They don't, they're not going to do that part. So the question is that yes, Maybe my mom did not need gluten until the age of 50 or 60 [00:40:00] maybe. That's dropped down to 30, 35 or 40 at this point. And I'm scared for my kids because they may need glutathione at the age of 25 That's that's not a good thing to do, but it's just just telling us that our memory is getting more and more polluted and we need to figure out every single thing that we can do to enhance our body to stay clean from inside.

**Michelle Oravitz:** And is there a benefit to taking N acetylcysteine as well as the, the skin, 

um, supplementation? 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** okay, so NAC or cysteine so there are about eight essential amino acids that you have to take every single day Cysteine is not one of them Cysteine, Glycerine, and Glycine. Those are the three amino acids that's used to produce glutathione. Those three are not even in the part of the eight essential amino acids. So if you take cysteine and the glutathione topical version that we have, the cysteine is not going to be used up to produce glutathione at all. It may be used up for some other components, but not for [00:41:00] glutathione. I would suggest that if you're doing that part, then save your money and just improve your diet,

right? If you have the money, I would rather you invest in those eight essential amino acids. Those are much better to do that, like Lucid and Proline. And so those are much more better to for you to use it on a daily basis. I'd rather you spend the money on that than to spend the money on the SysTeam.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Got it. And then what are some of the foods and, that you would recommend for the glutathione diet?

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Michelle, I've been told not to advise people on diet

**Michelle Oravitz:** Okay. Thank you

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** is worse than the religion and politics. So I'm going to tell you one thing. All right. So everybody has a, has an AI robot. Everybody has access to AI robot.

Go type it up. 

Sistine rich foods.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Sistine Richards

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** You're going to get your vegan choices, vegetarian choices, carnivore, [00:42:00] paleo, Atkins.

I don't know what a longevity diet.

I don't know. Don't die diet. I, I don't know. There's so many diets out there right there right now. All these

diets are going to be satisfied if you just type in the word system food and see what food are you willing to eat and make and have a variety of foods from that list

that you consume on a daily basis.

Like what's in that list? I, you know, on an everyday basis, every single day. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** in there, asparagus in there, there's oysters and chicken and turkey. And I mean, you can name it, right? There's so much stuff is in there that you can consume.

It's not a small list, right? But you have to make it a part of the routine.

But that's just one thing. That's just one thing. The second part, which is utmost important, is limit. Limit your exposure to toxicities,

**Michelle Oravitz:** yes true [00:43:00] Oh,

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** pure. Right is important and because of that guess what my technology I even dove into the skincare as well

because because most of my customers were females.

Well now they are like 50 50 today But at that time all my customers female and they look at the technology and say hey Can you give me all the antioxidants for my face as well? I said sure. It's that's easy, right? So I just went got all the antioxidants and I said, okay Put it squeeze the size right so I can shove a whole bunch of stuff into this couple of products And so I have like seven or eight different antioxidants in full concentration and some are even more in like two creams

right And then two of the serums I give like 10x of what you what you get from any of the products in the marketplace today so I give you a vitamin c and glutathione in a very high concentration to your skin Gets your skin completely disperses really really fast and gets gets to the all the skin in your whole body And so anyways, so I

did that [00:44:00] 

**Michelle Oravitz:** if you do that, To your face, is that the same thing, the same technology that will get glutathione in your cells? So it's kind of like two in one?

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** So it is, it is it's the same technology, but what we have to done is we have to identify the speed and how deep I want to go inside. So

the skincare is more 

for, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** different. It's more 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** yeah, but I would always say that if you're using both that do not double up, do not double up, right? If you're using both that

your skincare routine, as is the way it's been introduced to you,

and then just add on the, the top of glue that just once a day.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** And you, and you still get the, I mean, you get full benefit. That's the ultimate Longevity hack is what I call

them, right? Cause the beauty is inside out.

The ultimate longevity hack is you do the full skincare routine

and just do once a day of the glutathione. If you don't do the skincare routine, just the glutathione twice a day is, is, is, is what you need.

That's an ultimate bio is, [00:45:00] 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, that's great. 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** I have.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Well, listen, I mean, I'm curious. I'm sure people listening are very curious, how can we find out more? How can we buy this stuff and get ahold of it?

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Absolutely.

So, my website is oral wellness. com. A U R O wellness. com. Go to the website. There is a two part on the top is skincare and wellness. Otherwise you can go to oral skincare. com as well. The same thing. My urge is that if you are any of this patients that is Not able to give up monitor conveniences or you may suspect that you may have low glutathione levels I would probably strongly suggest you try it for 30 days

It is, 

we do offer a hundred percent, a hundred percent money back guarantee.

We don't charge shipping and handling. We'll refund you everything, right? We will, we will do full refund of everything. Cause I just want people to try it out. And once you try it for 30 days and if you see slight benefit of [00:46:00] it then it's the best thing that can happen to you for the rest of your life.

It's one thing that I have, I have customers for now for 17 years, since the first we discovered this product. That will, that's like a, it's a go to product in the arsenal. It's like, it's always there. And I'll tell you, I'll give you another analogy right now, because I wanted people to really understand what this is, because as you age, your body is deteriorating, is diseased, and it is, is, is breaking down, right? It's like. You go to your, when you go to your home you leave your door open. And as soon as I leave the door open, the dust, the wind blows the leaves inside. And so what you do is you bring your vacuum out or your, or your broom out and start sweeping and guess what? There's more dust and more leaves coming out.

Right?

So what do you do? I'll say, Oh my God, I forgot to close the door. Once you close the door, you can literally clean the whole house from inside and make [00:47:00] it brand new again.

Right? Oxidative stress, oxidative stress, production of free radicals is the opening of the door analogy in your body. Oxidative stress is not doing anything, but it's allowing every single thing to come inside your body. And destroy the body from inside and unless you block that and close it up

You cannot buy your body does not heal from inside, right? So the glutathione is actually closing the door is actually closing the door and then allowing your body to what to start getting? Cleaned up from inside and start repairing itself inside So at the bare minimum at the bare minimum if you do for four months You're going to have every single day Products in your body, every single cells, organs, every single thing you're going to have allowed them the chance to [00:48:00] regenerate self.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. 

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** after four months, yeah, it's after four months, it's like game over. So I have people that even today's they, they said, I know what I have to do. It's just that I just keep on forgetting.

I said, that's okay. You know, close the door first. You know, it's, it's no fun sweeping and wrecking your house every single day.

**Michelle Oravitz:** No, no, it's not. I agree. Wow. This is amazing. Really, really fascinating information. I just love the fact that you have a background from, from ecology. I mean, that you understand it really from the inside out and that you were able to apply technology and really understand it from your perspective and that you had these ideas to create a product like that, that's really cool.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** and I, I wish I had this product when we were going through our early on in my life because my wife had a hard time conceiving and it took us nine years to have a first

son. Yeah, and it's not that we were trying for nine years. It's just that [00:49:00] after marriage, it took us nine years to have the first son and we only tried for maybe about a couple of years before.

And then. We did, I think we did one, one, I think two IVF cycles.

And I said, this will be the last one. We'll never do it again because I know the damage it causes to the human body.

And I wasn't the one suffering, but I know it was going to destroy her body for the rest of her life. So I was not willing to put up with make her go through the process, even though it was like something that is so blissful to you, right? When you have a kid.

So, yeah, we did all the traditional because I was pharmacist. I knew I'll do all the hormone therapies. I did all the hormones

correctly. Everything was just fine, but she just was not producing any follicles. The follicles were there, but they're not producing any eggs.

I knew that it was oxygen stress, but at that time I had nolu thi product in

me. And So uh, it is just so unfortunate, right? But today you have that if you are a young person that is trying to conceive you have this thing, [00:50:00] at the very least, just use it for a few months. It gives it by the chance. And and, and hopefully you have a healthy baby. That's, that's always my

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, that's the hope. Yes. And sending all of that good, good energy and good thoughts to everybody listening. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel for coming on. This is a great conversation. I will have all the links to the website and everything in the episode notes for people to view if they want to stop, stop the car and then go look, but thank you so much for coming on today.

This is a great conversation.

**Dr. Nayan Patel:** Appreciate your time today. It's my pleasure to be here today. Thank you. [00:51:00] [00:52:00] 

 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by world-renowned fertility specialist and Harvard-awarded scholar, Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa, founder of The Rosa Institute. Gabriela has dedicated her career to helping couples overcome infertility, miscarriage, and failed treatments to create healthy families. With over 20 years of experience, her Fertility Breakthrough Program™ boasts a remarkable 78.8% success rate, even for couples who had previously faced long-standing fertility challenges.

In this episode, Gabriela explains why infertility is a symptom of deeper health issues and shares how addressing these root causes not only improves fertility but also enhances overall health. She also delves into her innovative, evidence-based approach that combines modern science and natural medicine to deliver transformative results. Be sure to tune in for this enlightening conversation packed with practical advice and hope for anyone navigating the fertility journey! Key Takeaways:

• Infertility, miscarriage, and failed treatments are symptoms of deeper health imbalances.

• Gabriela’s Fertility Breakthrough Program™ has helped thousands of couples worldwide overcome complex fertility challenges.

• Addressing the root causes of infertility leads to better reproductive outcomes and long-term health benefits.

• Low AMH does not mean no baby—natural conception is possible with the right interventions.

• Fertility challenges are clues pointing to underlying health issues that need attention.

• Thorough testing and a personalized approach are key to addressing unexplained infertility.

• Integrating natural and modern medicine optimizes fertility outcomes and overall health.

• Ignoring infertility as a symptom can increase the risk of chronic illnesses like diabetes and cardiovascular disease.

• Fertility is a whole-body process—issues with egg or sperm quality often stem from broader health concerns.

• Community and support are essential for navigating the emotional challenges of infertility.

Guest Bio: Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa is a world-renowned fertility specialist, author, and Harvard-awarded scholar. She is the founder of The Rosa Institute and creator of the Fertility Breakthrough Program™, which has transformed the lives of over 140,000 couples in 110+ countries. Gabriela’s work focuses on addressing the root causes of infertility using an evidence-based approach that combines modern science with natural medicine. With extensive training in reproductive health, naturopathy, and public health, Gabriela is passionate about empowering couples to achieve their dream of parenthood while improving their long-term health and well-being. Websites/Social Media Links: Website: https://fertilitybreakthrough.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.gabrielarosa/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/rosainstitutefertilitybreakthrough 

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com 

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility 

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ 

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/  Transcript:

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:04] [00:01:00] 

[00:01:47] ​

[00:01:47] **Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast, Gabriela.

[00:01:55] **Gabriela Rosa:** Thank you so much, Michelle. It's so lovely to be here.

[00:01:58] **Michelle Oravitz:** So lovely meeting you. We just [00:02:00] had a really nice pre chat and I would love for you. I always like to hear an origin story. I would love to get your background and how you got into the work that you're doing right now.

[00:02:11] **Gabriela Rosa:** And sure. Look, I think if for me, I've been doing this work since 2001. So it feels like a very long time, probably because it is. when I start seeing my patience, babies graduating from university. I'm

[00:02:23] **Michelle Oravitz:** Oh my God. That is crazy. Cause you look so young.

[00:02:27] **Gabriela Rosa:** Oh, thank you. It must be all those herbs and nutrients, you know, but, it's funny because like, that's exactly last two years ago, I had this experience of like seeing, literally seeing one of my babies graduating from university and thinking, Oh my God, where did the time go?

[00:02:44] You know, like, that's just crazy, but, but it's, it's been wonderful. It's been a wonderful journey. don't know that I have. In a way, I think that, you know, we, as, Steve Jobs says, you can't, or said, you can't join the [00:03:00] dots in advance. You know, sometimes you can only join the dots in retrospect. And as I look back, I think, you know, I don't know that I planned to be where I am, but in a way I plan to be exactly where I am, if you know what I mean.

[00:03:14] It's a very strange kind of

[00:03:17] **Michelle Oravitz:** It found you.

[00:03:19] **Gabriela Rosa:** certainly found me, that's for sure. and it was really through my experiences with patients that That it shaped the specific area that we focus on because we really only treat couples who typically have been experiencing infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments, and really have, you know, have tried everything and nothing has worked like that's who we treat.

[00:03:41] And it certainly didn't start out that way. My, passion when I first started doing what I do was that I wanted to make sure We had a contribution to making the world a better place, one healthier baby at a time. And I really had in my young mind that I wanted to help as many people who wanted to have a baby to [00:04:00] prepare, to do preconception preparation, to be the healthiest version of themselves because we know epigenetics matters.

[00:04:06] We know that the way in which, you know, prospective parents go into a conception attempt and certainly conception in general will. either increase or improve the health of a child or, decrease it, you know, there is no zero net some kind of effect. There's only ever always positive or negative effects.

[00:04:26] Neutral effects are generally kind of weighed down to negative effects. So for me, and I'll talk more about that if you want to, but, you know, for me, it was that whole idea that I wanted to ensure That we were making that contribution. And it was interesting because although some people were really interested in being the healthiest that they could be, most people were not, most people are like, Oh, this is just too much work.

[00:04:50] Let's just start trying. And if we have a problem, then we can do something about it. And that was never really my attitude towards it because the way that I see certainly the [00:05:00] work that we do. There is another layer to it, which is not so much about the physical and the functional. Although, of course, we address that our program has a 78.

[00:05:09] 8 percent success rate for people who previously, you know, were infertile, lots of failed treatments and all of those things. And we validated those results through my masters in public health at Harvard. So we know that, you know, what we're doing certainly makes a difference. But. It really, for me, the undercurrent and the underlayer of why I wanted to do this work was actually for self actualization of the patients who came to us, you know, it was for really being able to reach one's full potential in terms of health and how that impacted other areas their life.

[00:05:43] And that's how I wanted to work. And the people who were coming in for preparation really were not into that kind of work. And so I started to see that the people who are more in alignment with the work that I wanted to do and the legacy that I wanted to leave in the world were the people who [00:06:00] were having difficulty.

[00:06:01] And so I started to kind of focus more and gravitate more towards, you know, those, challenging experiences and how to help people overcome them and, Transition and almost kind of transmute what they were going through. And about five or six years into it all, I had a patient who really changed the trajectory of my whole career.

[00:06:25] And she had been referred to me by a friend who thought that she should have a conversation with me. She had been infertile for 10 years. She had done multiple failed IVF cycles at the time. And even though now I talk about that case and it's kind of like, Every day in the office for me at the time, it was the first time that I was seeing that.

[00:06:44] And so I was like, Ooh, I don't know that we can help that kind of sit or that I can help that kind of situation. You know, I don't know that there's much that I can do, but she was really insistent and quite adamant. I actually talked to her the other day and told her this story because she didn't even know.

[00:06:57] Yeah. And she was like, Oh my God, that's so [00:07:00] amazing to know. But you know, it's, what I ended up happening was that because she was so insistent at doing something, she said to me, she said, look, it's going to be my last try. I'm not going to do any more treatment after this. You know, I'm getting older. I don't want to continue this.

[00:07:15] It's been long enough. So I said, look, that's fine. Let's do what we need to do and we'll see what kind of result we get. And Three months later, after years of nothing working, she was actually, it was about four months later, she was pregnant and I was like, Oh, okay. So there's, there's something here, you know, but then at the same time, I thought, Oh, that's, that's strange.

[00:07:33] I actually doubted my own, my own results, you know, I was like, Ooh, I don't know, I don't really know if this is just one of those. Luke situations, you know, one of those kind of like random occurrences. But then there was another patient who came to me not long after her, who was infertile for 19 years and yeah, and then I was really like going,

[00:07:54] **Michelle Oravitz:** Wow.

[00:07:55] **Gabriela Rosa:** I really don't think that I can do anything for you.

[00:07:57] She was 44 by the time she came to me. I [00:08:00] had a conversation with her. I said, look, it's not usually, obviously what walks through my door is not 19 years of infertility, but just recently I had a lady who had been trying for 10 years. We can give it a go and see what happens. And we did that. About five or six months later, she was pregnant.

[00:08:15] And so I was like, okay, now to, you know, randomness can occur, but to is a bit like a lot. and so I started to, after we had that, success, so I had that kind of experience. I started to then really decide that, okay, you know what, I'm only going to treat people who have been. Trying for more than two years and nothing has worked.

[00:08:37] And I did that for many, many years. And when I finally went to do our study for the for the fertility breakthrough program and its results when I was doing my masters at Harvard, we realized that Yes, we had a 78. 8 percent live birth rate for people who had been infertile for almost four years on average, plus or minus almost [00:09:00] three years.

[00:09:00] So it really helped me to realize that, okay, this definitely makes it, you know, what we do and the methodology that we use, and that obviously I've developed over the years. really does make a difference to address these really difficult, complex cases of couples who, and individuals as well, you know, sometimes we do get solo reproduction patients who come to us who have been experiencing FALD, or egg cycle, or IVF cycle, but mostly couples who know that there is more that they kind of intrinsically know there's more they can do, but they don't know what.

[00:09:34] And they also are very unclear typically about why it's not working. You know, they have these unexplained diagnosis of either infertility or failed treatment or miscarriage, and they keep being told, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And we know that clearly, What is normal is that you have sex, you get pregnant, you hold your baby, that's normal.

[00:09:59] A [00:10:00] deviation from that tells me that, okay, there's more that we need to ask in terms of what's going on here and certainly more that we need to answer if we're going to get somewhere. So that's how it all started. And I guess that's how it's going, you know,

[00:10:13] **Michelle Oravitz:** That's awesome. I mean, those stories are pretty amazing. I mean, really, really like shockingly amazing. And a couple of things came to mind as you were talking about it. And I love the fact that you were saying about really approaching a person that To make them more vital, like to really improve their overall wellbeing.

[00:10:33] And rather than just focusing on disease, you're really focusing on their health and seeing them in almost a positive light. And it is actually, we don't really notice this, but it is actually a perspective. of many healthcare professionals or like older types of healthcare, like not older, I guess more like conventional.

[00:10:53] Sometimes they'll focus more on the symptoms and we always say like root cause versus symptoms rather than just [00:11:00] focusing on treating disease. It's like treating health and really kind of a more positive way to approach the journey.

[00:11:08] **Gabriela Rosa:** You know, what's interesting is that we see these days that fertility, and I say fertility rather than infertility. Fertility is highly medicalized, right? So it's, it's about finding the problem and treating a problem as if The ovaries and the testicles, i. e. the egg and the sperm, were the only parts that make this process happen.

[00:11:36] And we know that it's not. And, you know, what's interesting about it, and I think that, you know, to speak to what you're talking about, the issues here are so much greater than where we find ourselves, because it's a, it's a healthcare system problem. The reality of it is that when it comes to prevention, typically public health is focused on [00:12:00] prevention and the healthcare system is focused on the treatment of disease.

[00:12:03] And we see that when it comes to fertility a lot and what ends up happening as a result of it is that It really is just focusing on like, it's almost like, you know, you've got a sore finger. Okay, let's chop that off and fix that problem. Hopefully you don't get to chop it off, but you know, that's typically how it, how it's approached.

[00:12:24] And so what ends up happening is that the entire context of the human being that is meant to produce the result of, which really fertility is a, is an outcome. But it's also a retrospective outcome. You know that it's you're holding a baby once you are, like whatever happens before that moment happens is essentially a part of what is going to lead to whatever outcome you have.

[00:12:51] And so I always talk about it from this perspective. If you are experiencing Challenges in terms of getting pregnant, keeping a healthy pregnancy to term, [00:13:00] these are end results of many biochemical chain reactions that start all the way, you know, way before the result is meant to occur. What IVF tries to do is immediately work from like the immediate part that you can see, i.

[00:13:15] e. egg and sperm. But the reality of it is that there's only so much leverage when it's not very much that you can get from only trying to address those cells, as opposed to all of the biochemical pathways that are leading to the creation of the cells in the way that they are. And that's part of why IVF its own, often fails, because one, it's not looking and addressing What are the reasons as to why we need IVF to begin with?

[00:13:41] And what is it that we need to do to improve the chances of conception occurring, whether it's via natural conception or via IVF? I also want to really kind of underline and highlight the point that whether we're talking about any kind of reproductive challenge, whether we're talking about [00:14:00] infertility or miscarriage or failed IVF treatments, It's almost like those are clues.

[00:14:05] They're not results. They're not the outcome because the outcome of reproduction is a baby. So if we're having failures in that process that are leading us to not hold our baby, it tells us that, okay, the clues that we have are the symptoms that we're experiencing. Infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments.

[00:14:26] Those are symptoms. Right, really to a large extent. And what that means is that we need to treat them as such, because if we don't address the red flags that are infertility on its own, miscarriages on its own, and failed treatments on its own, because failed treatments is relevant here, because the that you have an egg and a sperm together, you have an embryo. You have a baby right in that moment. You have a baby when you transfer an embryo for treatment, [00:15:00] you are pregnant at the time of transfer. No matter what you are pregnant. So if you don't see a positive pregnancy test. That tells us that implantation has failed and that tells us that, okay, there's something there that we need to address.

[00:15:14] Why is it failing? Most doctors, most providers don't care about it. They literally just say, oh, you know, it's a like, it's a numbers game. It's the luck of the draw. Just keep trying. Everything is normal. Just keep trying. When I hear that, literally, this is why I have so much gray hair. Because when

[00:15:30] **Michelle Oravitz:** But you have beautiful skin.

[00:15:34] **Gabriela Rosa:** when I hear that, I just go, Oh my God, like, how can we keep believing this lie that everything is normal, just keep trying whilst we're having very clear symptoms, infertility, miscarriage, failed treatment, that things aren't quite right.

[00:15:49] What we also know about these symptoms, and I like to call them symptoms because really, That is what they are. They're telling us that there is some imbalance within the system that [00:16:00] often left unaddressed will lead. It's not may lead. It is will lead to other health conditions being developed in the long term.

[00:16:09] And we know that being studies about this that show that. For people who have an infertility diagnosis and just bypass it with any other kind of treatment rather than addressing IVF etc, rather than addressing the issue, what happens is that the risk and the rate of all cause mortality in the future is higher.

[00:16:35] So people who are diagnosed with infertility who don't treat it. actually die from all other causes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, at a higher rate than people who actually address their problems. And this was demonstrated to happen and be true for females and for males. So literally, if you're not addressing infertility as a symptom, [00:17:00] you are digging yourself a hole sooner and at a younger age than you otherwise would want to.

[00:17:07] Now, I know that this is unpopular and most people are going to feel very confronted by hearing something like this, but the reality is that, sure, you can go and bypass infertility and the symptoms of infertility and go into IVF and get a baby. But are you going to have the quality of life and the ability to be here to raise that child in the long term?

[00:17:29] That's a very important question that people need to ask themselves before they simply just jump onto, you know, overcoming the issue with a band aid and just fixing it as opposed to actually truly addressing the root cause of the problem and finding what is the problem. You know, because there are things, for example, if you have antiphospholipid syndrome, which increases the risk of miscarriage, that's also a marker for cardiovascular disease in the long term.

[00:17:59] So you're [00:18:00] literally like, if you are ignoring it for, and just take heparin, take whatever to be able to actually take home a baby and not really addressing the underlying concerns that your body is telling you than a present. Well, You are certainly increasing your risk of cardiovascular disease in the future.

[00:18:18] And like that, there are many other examples. I'll give you an example of insulin resistance. You know, like I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 18, I had to really understand how to take care of my body in the best possible way to have regular cycles, despite being told by a medical doctor that. I probably would never have Children.

[00:18:37] I was able to conceive two babies twice, literally one and two kind of attempts later by understanding what it is that I needed to do in a holistic way for my body. Now, had I not done that and just jump bypassed the problem with taking metformin, not that I'm saying it can't be a part of the solution, but it can't be the whole solution, right?

[00:18:57] I would have probably at this stage in my life right [00:19:00] now. Have pre-diabetes or have already have diabetes because we know that insulin resistance leads to pre-diabetes, which leads to the development of diabetes and that women with PCOS have and are at highest risk. Now by me ignoring my insulin resistance, yes, I'm increasing the risk of implantation failure.

[00:19:21] infertility and diabetes in the long term. And like I said, if I don't address that at the, at the point in the time that it matters to overcome fertility concerns and fertility challenges, I am choosing diabetes in the long term. So, and we know that one of the biggest killers in the world these days is diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer.

[00:19:43] And there are many cancers that are associated with the insulin resistance condition, resistance conditions and pre diabetes. So again, you know, I already have a family history of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. Do I want to add to that? No, thank you.

[00:19:59] **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:20:00] Yeah. I mean, wow. You know, this is such an important topic that you're bringing up and it's something that I don't even think has really been brought up to this level on my podcast and I've been doing this since 2018. I mean, yes, I've talked about how, like I've had people on and say almost like going through the fertility journey saved my life.

[00:20:19] I mean, so yes, people have acknowledged it, but to this detail that you're mentioning, I think it's just so important for people to hear. And I think it is important. It's one of those painful truths. And I think it's important for people to face it and acknowledge it because ultimately you can ignore it, but it's going to come back.

[00:20:38] It's not like ignoring it makes it go away.

[00:20:41] **Gabriela Rosa:** exactly. And I think that that is, you know, if, people take nothing else out of this conversation today, I think what's important is to understand that you cannot bypass infertility and still be healthy in the longterm. You have to work with your body to understand why is it giving you these symptoms?

[00:20:58] What is it that you can do about it? [00:21:00] Not just hearing a doctor say, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And yet having completely either it. Out of range or out of optimal range test results and continue to think that, well, IVF must be the next solution because it is not. IVF can be part of a solution and it's a wonderful part of the solution for couples who really, truly need it.

[00:21:23] And truly, it was developed for women. with tubal factor infertility. So people who had blocked fallopian tubes for some reason, it wasn't developed for the variety of fertility concerns or issues and, causes that we have today. So we can't just expect that we are going to bypass the problem and are going to have absolutely no negative effect in the long term.

[00:21:48] And I think that that's a really important thing for people to understand is that. Yes, you might use it as a way to support a process, but not without [00:22:00] addressing, and certainly not by ignoring what's causing it to be needed to begin with. I think that one of the biggest things, and for me this is, you know, something that I'm exceptionally passionate about, is helping people get answers.

[00:22:15] you know, we even have a full free program that we give to people. That is a four week program. It's called the fertility challenge. It's completely free. It's literally worth thousands of dollars. And what it does is it helps people to understand, okay, let's understand the diagnosis. For you. Let's understand what are the things that are not working in the way that it needs to and change that.

[00:22:38] You know, the objective really is to get answers, get clarity, to be able to personalize the implementation of whatever it is that you need to do so you can conceive however it is that you're going to conceive and finally hold the baby. Not continuing to go out and around in circles until you run out of time completely, because that is sadly what [00:23:00] happens to so many women, so many couples, they try, and I talk to them all the time, and it's heartbreaking, you know, people who have been trying for 10 years to have a baby and feel like, gosh, I'm at the end of my rope, I need to figure out how else I can do this, or I'm really come to terms with never having a baby, you know, like this is the decision and the place that so many of the patients who come to Mirat and I so hope and wish that people can actually have this clarity, have these epiphanies way before they are at that stage.

[00:23:32] stage where they literally have their back in a corner and there's nowhere else to move. So those are important things for me. I think that it's, you know, getting clarity and getting answers is the number one thing that's actually going to enable you to implement the right strategy in terms of treatment because you can line up.

[00:23:54] 10 men with poor sperm morphology. And you can have 10 [00:24:00] reasons as to why that sperm morphology is problematic in all of those different men. Right? So it's not one size fits all. Exactly. I didn't know for somebody, let's say that they have heavy exposures to like, I've had farmers in my program, you know, heavy exposures to heavy metals and, and heat and, you know, all sorts of things.

[00:24:20] And then I've got doctors, heavy exposure to radiation and so on. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things that you really have to understand the context specific need for the patient to be able to properly and effectively address it. Otherwise you're literally just trialing and erroring until.

[00:24:38] Unfortunately, many people run out of time altogether. 

[00:24:42] **Michelle Oravitz:** I think that the biggest problem is that people just don't even know what they don't know. So they go to doctors and then, I mean, I was one of them and people know this, you know, my listeners know this. I've been on the birth control pill and that was like my solution to irregular periods and it was just like, [00:25:00] take this.

[00:25:00] And this is the only thing you can do. And apart from this, there's nothing you can do. And that's, um, you know, such a straight statement and such a definitive statement. Statement that I don't know better. So I just believe it. And then until years later, I find different modality and realize, Oh no, there is something I can do.

[00:25:17] So like 

[00:25:18] **Gabriela Rosa:** There's lots. 

[00:25:19] **Michelle Oravitz:** I didn't know. I did not know what I didn't know until I knew. And so this is why I love having people like you on here, bringing light to this because people need to hear this. Cause I think it's going to start to like light up something in their minds. It's like, Oh, wow, this is something that I can really.

[00:25:36] Look into that's number one is people don't know what they don't know. But also number two is that they don't even know they can do anything about it. Then there's a lot of things that you could do about it. And you know, there's so many people say like, Oh, there's nothing you can do. There's no cure. And a cure is kind of like a, you know, very definitive word, but treatment.

[00:25:56] I mean, there's things that you can do that actually [00:26:00] can impact it. It's just that that is not something that is in the conventional world.

[00:26:06] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah. And you know what else is interesting, and I think that this is important for people to understand as well, because it's, it's a bugmare of mine, which is when people go to their doctor and the doctor runs some tests and then they go back for results and they literally are told, Oh, we've done all the tests.

[00:26:22] And everything is normal. Now, let's peel this back and let's explain what all the tests actually means because all the tests does not mean all of the tests, okay? And everything is normal definitely doesn't mean that if you're still not holding a baby. And let me explain what that, what I mean by that.

[00:26:39] When it comes to the fertility guidelines around the world, which is what doctors will most of the time will be following guidelines because they don't want to be seen as being stupid amongst their peers. Okay, so what happens with this? doctor will typically refuse to prescribe or request a test result unless they [00:27:00] feel validated in doing so.

[00:27:02] Okay. And the reason for that, and I've had this conversation with doctors, my own providers, as well as colleagues who tell me this, they say, I can't ask for this test because it's not going to be either approved by insurance, or I'm going to be criticized for requesting this test to which I reply. Well.

[00:27:22] What is currently in the guidelines when it comes to fertility diagnosis is that you check for patency in the fallopian tubes, so are the fallopian tubes clear, and usually that's tested these days, it used to be an HSG, these days it's by Hycose, ultrasound with fluid in the tubes and, you know, dye spilling through if the tubes are clear.

[00:27:45] The other test that is done is typically your kind of general FSH, LH, estrogen, progesterone. Progesterone typically recommended on day 21 of the cycle, which also is not necessarily the right thing because some women have irregular cycles and [00:28:00] lengthened cycles and irregular ovulation. So really progesterone should be occurring seven days post ovulation and not at day 21 of the cycle, particularly if a woman has lengthened cycles or shortened.

[00:28:13] cycles. It doesn't mean that a woman is not ovulating in those two instances. It just means that pinpointing ovulation becomes more difficult. And that is pretty much, and then of course, sperm parameters. Most people that come to me, believe it or not, despite years of infertility, have not had a semen analysis done.

[00:28:30] or don't have a recent semen analysis that really understands what's going on with sperm right now because sperm changes literally every four months. And so you can have the flu and end up with zero sperm. It actually can happen. And you know, that doesn't mean that that person is azoospermic forever and always, it just means that they've had a severe infection that has wiped out their for a sperm cycle or for a period of time.

[00:28:57] So Understanding that the major [00:29:00] things, and some doctors are more thorough and some will prescribe or refer, recommend further tests, but as a bare minimum, they're looking for hormonal balance, looking for ovulation and looking for tubal patiency and sperm parameters. So those are four things.

[00:29:15] Out of literally thousands of tests that could be done and that needs to be looked at. And of course, needs to be personalized because testing is also expensive and you don't want to be wasting time doing tests for no reason. So, you know, there is a balance to that. But it's not enough to have four tests and not really exactly know what it is that's being tested.

[00:29:37] And your doctor tell you, Oh, you know, we've done all the tests and everything is normal because very little is going to be picked up unless there is some serious major issue. Very little is going to be picked up by those four, you know, four things being tested or four areas being tested. What's going to happen is that you may end up with some clues about what else needs to be tested, but [00:30:00] Typically, it's going to be insufficient to gain a proper diagnosis.

[00:30:05] to which what happens from there is that people get diagnosed with unexplained infertility. And hence why unexplained infertility is the major, the biggest category of infertility diagnosis, because more tests have not been done. Now, typically, and this is when

[00:30:23] we're 

[00:30:23] **Michelle Oravitz:** I mean, that is such a good statement. Keep going. Sorry.

[00:30:28] **Gabriela Rosa:** the thing about it is that that's what we're talking about conception and conception attempt failures, which IE infertility is what, how it's labeled.

[00:30:38] But when we're talking about miscarriages or implantation failure, it's even worse. Because, guess what? The healthcare system expects that a woman has to have at least three miscarriages before testing is done. Now, really? I mean, I don't know, for anybody who has ever had one miscarriage, it's traumatizing enough.

[00:30:58] Waiting to have three [00:31:00] before you actually do any further testing, to me, is pretty extreme. That's why, you know. It's unacceptable. It's, as a woman, I think it's just like, it's ridiculous, right? Now, the other thing then that happens is failed IVF You end up with an embryo. Most people who go into IVF, and it's not everyone, but most people will end up with at least one embryo, and there will be a decision to transfer said embryo.

[00:31:23] If it doesn't work, and of course, if the cycle gets cancelled for any other reason before we get to that stage, or even then. after getting an embryo, i. e. embryo doesn't develop, doesn't, you know, there's no blastocysts to transfer, whatever it is. Every single one of those points of failure, so to speak, needs to be questioned and needs to be specifically tested and addressed because otherwise, again, you can end up with the same problem.

[00:31:51] Now, In the case of IVF, it's more problematic because it's also extremely costly. In the United States, an average IVF [00:32:00] cycle costs about 17, 000 U. S. dollars. And around the world, you know, the price varies. But let's just go with the United States data. And we look at an average cost of 17, 000. That is whether you get to transfer or not.

[00:32:13] you are paying that money.

[00:32:15] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.

[00:32:16] **Gabriela Rosa:** you have an embryo or not,

[00:32:18] you are paying that money. So the thing about it that I questioned is like, okay, and there are published studies that show that in order to have a close to 80 percent live birth rate, cumulative rate for IVF, i. e. having a baby, close to 80 percent cumulative rate of chance of having a baby, you have to have eight IVF cycles.

[00:32:39] That's the average. Now imagine, imagine eight times seventeen thousand dollars, I mean for some people that's a house.

[00:32:48] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.

[00:32:49] **Gabriela Rosa:** Right. So no wonder people can't afford to go and do IVF. No wonder there are so many challenges. But even if you can afford it, would you rather do something else first to [00:33:00] understand what is the cause and address that before going and doing another cycle?

[00:33:04] You know, we have so many patients who come to us after failed cycles and go, look, I want to prepare to have another better cycle. Typically, those people end up conceiving naturally. They didn't even need IVF to begin with. And when they do, they end up having one or two maximum cycles afterwards, once you understand what the problem is.

[00:33:23] So again, hence the critical importance of understanding what is the problem you are dealing with, rather than just expecting that you are going to be okay with some unexplained diagnosis. for your expertise.

[00:33:37] **Michelle Oravitz:** So walk us through, like, if you have certain cases, like the ones that you were mentioning, that are really, really complex and many, many years of dealing with. really being on this journey, what are some of the steps you would take? You had mentioned doing testing and functional testing also just for people listening, if you don't know about it, is a lot more in depth and [00:34:00] detailed than what you'll typically get when you go to the doctor's office.

[00:34:03] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah, no, I agree with that. And look, the testing piece, it's almost, it's a science and an art, right? Because it's almost like you need to balance. various things when requesting a test, you have to balance what is the return on the knowledge that you're going to gain? What's the time spent? What is the money spent?

[00:34:22] What are the things that are actually going to give you a lot to be able to do about it versus not very much for a very expensive test? So there's, so for me personally, and certainly, you know, in the first time method, what we use in the pro in our programs, really, what we're looking at is we kind of go back to the drawing board, we collect all the data.

[00:34:42] We really look at everything that the patient brings from their lived experience, whether it's test results, other things that they've done, whatever it is, we collect and analyze all of that information to really first understand, okay, what has been done? Where are the gaps? Where are the places of opportunity?

[00:34:58] What are the things [00:35:00] that. we need action that is absolutely urgent. And one of the things that we don't actually need to address because there will be addressed as part of addressing the, you know, some of the basic major root issues, root causes. So it's understanding that nuance that actually ends up being able to direct a path, particularly in those cases that we treat that are very difficult and complex because you can do a thousand tests.

[00:35:28] You know, there's thousands of tests that you can actually do. Will you do them? No, no. So then we have to really be able to identify, okay, what are the red flags that if we were to understand more about them? Or where the gaps that if we don't know is going to change the direction of our, say, of our choices, then we're starting to look at those things, you know, in cost effectiveness, cost effectiveness analysis, which is a big [00:36:00] field of science, really, the idea is this, if you are going to treat anyway, don't test.

[00:36:07] Right. So for example, and there are pros and cons to this, but you know, there are certain things that you're going to treat anyway. So is there a need to test it? Sometimes there is. But sometimes there really isn't and that's the thing that we really need to kind of balance in the whole scheme of things is the things that are going to be absolutely essential and the things that are not really going to be that important.

[00:36:34] **Michelle Oravitz:** And what were some of the protocols or what are the types of ways that you treat people or. What is included in the protocols?

[00:36:44] **Gabriela Rosa:** It's depends because it's very personalized, you know, so we will use a blend of medical. treatments and even medical diagnostics, of course. And we then are going to utilize the best of all of the worlds that we have access to, whether it's [00:37:00] naturopathic medicine, integrative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, lifestyle medicine.

[00:37:04] So we then are putting together a very personalized process. That is going to help that individual that is part of that couple. Because like I said, you know, you have 10 different men, you have 10 different reasons. Therefore, we need to understand what is the reason here and what do we then make as recommendations.

[00:37:24] My biggest focus always is minimum effective dose. I want to do the least possible to get the biggest resolved. Right. That is my focus. So I'm always assessing and addressing the case from that lens of like, okay, what do I need to touch? What do I have to leave alone? Because there are certain things that, you know, for example, I'll give you an example of heavy metal toxicity.

[00:37:46] Heavy metal toxicity is a really tricky one. In some cases, it will increase the risk of miscarriage. Like, hugely. I had patient once who basically had 40 times the, elevated rate of what's kind of acceptable in a [00:38:00] human. And essentially had had 8 miscarriages a result, was coming to me to figure out, okay, why am I having miscarriage after miscarriage, even though I'm getting pregnant, she was only 30.

[00:38:10] So we went on to identify that she had really high level of mercury toxicity, which was causing these miscarriages. And there were other factors too. So we addressed all of it and we had to make a decision in her situation to actually go for medical chelation therapy. Because what ended up happening for her with that high level is that she was going to continue miscarrying.

[00:38:32] And we also knew that chelation therapy would take a long time because it doesn't work quickly. It took us 12 months of treating her, doing chelation, doing retesting, more chelation, more retesting to actually get to a point where she could start trying to conceive again. So it's not everybody has that kind of time, which means that we might find high heavy metals in a person and have to leave it alone because literally we have two years until this [00:39:00] is all over, right?

[00:39:01] So it just depends on the situation and we have to make those critical clinical decisions that are going to really help the outcome that we are looking for. So it's highly personalized. So it's not. I don't have, we have a framework that we make sure that we don't leave things to chance, that we really are, you know, checking off every box, but we don't have a, this is the only way that we do this because we have to ask and answer questions and address and adapt accordingly.

[00:39:29] **Michelle Oravitz:** So I guess, my question wasn't specifically like a protocol that's customized, like for all, cause I get it. We do the same thing, but do you use, what kind of tools do you use

[00:39:39] **Gabriela Rosa:** Oh, we use all sorts of things from, yeah, from drug therapy to herbal medicines, to nutritional supplementation, to exercise, to sleep, to diet, like, All of the things, you know, so in terms of what it is that we're going to use, we're going to use whatever it is that we need to use. You know, sometimes we find infections that we're not going to waste time [00:40:00] trying to use.

[00:40:00] I was just going to go straight to antibiotics. You know, because that's just the thing that's

[00:40:04] going to give us the result the fastest. So, again, even the treatment part is going to be very, I guess, personalized to whatever it is that that person needs, because at the end of the day, I want speed. 

[00:40:18] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, 

[00:40:19] **Gabriela Rosa:** speed and I want effectiveness.

[00:40:21] So it's, it's balancing all of those worlds.

[00:40:24] **Michelle Oravitz:** definitely have a unique perspective though, in a sense that you use tools that are conventional and, a little bit more alternative and holistic. So it is a really great combination because you can get amazing results with both. Yeah.

[00:40:41] **Gabriela Rosa:** way that I see it is like, we really do want to blend the best of both worlds. We don't want to say, Oh no, this is not something that we use. I'm not. Look, honestly, I am not, I'm not a purist. I'm not a purist, you know, like, I don't think that there's only one way to do things.

[00:40:57] I think I always am looking for what is the best [00:41:00] way to do something, you know, what's going to get us the outcome that we're looking for, balancing all of the constraints and challenges and situations that we have in front of us. So, but how? And I always say to my patients, I'm completely impartial as to how you get pregnant.

[00:41:15] I don't care if we have to use IUI, IVF, you know, like I don't care donor egg. That's not the thing. The thing is, if my patient comes to me and says, look, I'm, I want a baby no matter what. we are going to explore every, every opportunity to be able to do that. Then I also have some patients who come to me and say, I will only try natural conception.

[00:41:36] I'm like, okay, cool. Let's explore and make sure that we maximize that opportunity. You know, what are the things that we need to do? But it's, values and preferences of the patient that will determine where we go and what recommendations we will make.

[00:41:52] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think that that ultimately just shows that you're present with your patient because that is [00:42:00] ultimately what it is. It's not a one size fits all because then it's something that you pre craft and just give out. But when you're present with a patient, you're able to really assess what you have in front of you specifically.

[00:42:11] One topic that I did want to actually ask you about, you know, to get your thoughts, A lot of times people will come in with like, What they say, quote unquote, low AMH, which as we know, sometimes fluctuates in itself, but people get really hung up on it in response to how their doctors get really hung up on it, and I've seen this my, in my own office is that it really doesn't make as much of.

[00:42:38] I guess the challenge is people think it does. I've seen people with very low numbers that were told that they needed egg donor conceive naturally like multiple times after that. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

[00:42:50] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. And look, you know, what happens is that AMH levels, which measures the ovarian reserve, it's measuring the hormones that are excreted by [00:43:00] the eggs themselves, right? And so the more of AMH you have, the more eggs you're likely to have, the less AMH, the less eggs you're likely to have.

[00:43:08] Yeah. Does it mean that if you have low AMH that you can't conceive naturally and what is the best way to conceive? Well, actually, all the science shows that if you have low AMH, typically the best option for conception is actually natural conception or IUI. As opposed to IVF. Most, and this is why most women with lower MH go to their doctors and they refuse to do IVF cycles if they are good doctors.

[00:43:35] If they just want to take their money, they might not be that kind of doctor. Right? And so the reality of it is that Low MH in itself does not preclude a woman from conceiving with her own eggs naturally. I see the same thing in my clinic. In fact, our study, our Harvard study shows that even in the very low MH category, the less than one, the one to four is low, less than one is very low.

[00:43:59] [00:44:00] We had the majority of patients conceive by natural conception in that category group. So very possible, very doable. However, it's not as easy as it used to be. Thank you. Right. When a woman had higher AMH, and this is also part of the reason why you need to make sure that you're addressing the full context of the patient, because a woman's ovarian reserve is just going to, it's going to decline at the time, no matter what.

[00:44:26] And if you're treating the wrong problem, i. e. let's say, for example, we have very poor sperm quantity, quality, you know, all of those things. And you are continually treating the woman because she has low ovarian reserve. Well, you're actually leaving a lot on the table because she probably with a better sperm partner would actually have already conceived.

[00:44:50] And so it's about understanding, again, this is where I always say fertility is a team sport. And I say that for a reason. You can't expect that a woman [00:45:00] with lower age is going to conceive with crappy sperm. If you have a lower age, what you need is superhero sperm, right? And so it's, and men's sperm quality decreases over time as women's fertility decreases over time.

[00:45:14] So it's a, it's a matter of understanding. What it means, like, for example, if you have just low AMH and your FSH is normal on day two, then you have a much better chance of conceiving and taking home a healthy baby, whether it's naturally or any other way, than a woman who has low AMH and high FSH.

[00:45:34] Because then, if you're having high FSH, it's telling you that already on day two, your ovaries are already struggling to release the eggs that are remaining. So that tells me that, again, IVF is definitely not the best option, and you need to figure out, okay, what else is there that you can, what are the levers that you can pull, because probably egg quality is [00:46:00] not going to be enough.

[00:46:01] Right? And so then you have to address and adjust treatment accordingly. But just as a full answer to your question, just as a, as a very big summary, Lower MH does not mean that you can't conceive. It does signal the onset of perimenopause. Typically ovarian reserve lowers quite significantly five to ten years before menopause, and particularly for women who smoke, that happens even five years before women who don't smoke.

[00:46:30] So it's certainly if you, if you are trying to get pregnant and you smoke, well, you better stop. Right now, because you are definitely almost kind of poisoning your chances of taking a healthy pregnancy to term at any point, like you're literally certainly decreasing your chances by at least five years compared to non smoking counterparts.

[00:46:54] And if your partner smokes secondary, you know, kind of smoke is also going to be a problem. [00:47:00] So, and of course, that's going to be a problem for sperm. So there's all of those, those contexts as well that we have to take into account. But yeah, it's, it doesn't necessarily translate that low AMH means no baby or low AMH means that it must be donor egg situation.

[00:47:15] We had patients, and again, this is in our analysis, the majority of patients who had low AMH were told that they needed to have donor egg. We, in the entire sample of 544 patients, we only had 5. 6%. actually need donor egg. So, and the majority were consuming naturally. So, you know, I take that with a very large grain of salt.

[00:47:38] **Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And this is why you have to get many multiple opinions and really do your research and find the right practitioner. Maybe a couple of different practitioners. but I love your approach and I think that a lot of what you're saying, first of all, it makes a lot of sense, but it's also, is research based and empowering for people listening.

[00:47:59] [00:48:00] And so for people listening who are interested or want to learn more about your work, what are the things that you offer online, like

[00:48:08] **Gabriela Rosa:** Yeah. So

[00:48:09] **Michelle Oravitz:** far away,

[00:48:10] **Gabriela Rosa:** they can go to my website, which is fertilitybreakthrough. com and they can also search my name, which is Gabriella Rosa, G A B R I E L A R O S A. they will find, I have my book, Fertility Breakthrough, Overcoming Infertility and Recurrent Miscarriage When Other Treatments Have Failed free on YouTube and Spotify.

[00:48:29] So they'll be able to get the audio version there. It's also available on Amazon and every other bookseller. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we have the free fertility challenge program that is designed for couples who want to overcome infertility and miscarriage, and most importantly, want to find answers, you know, and want to know what it is that they need to do and how to personalize their journey so that they can hold their baby sooner,

[00:48:53] **Michelle Oravitz:** amazing, and you work one on one as well, right?

[00:48:56] **Gabriela Rosa:** our team does absolutely. So, yes.

[00:48:59] **Michelle Oravitz:** [00:49:00] amazing, Gabriella, this is an amazing conversation. I've seen you around before. I've looked at your information before we spoke and I was very impressed and this exceeded my expectations. So thank you so much for coming on.

[00:49:14] **Gabriela Rosa:** Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure. [00:50:00] 

 

 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by the incredible Dr. Alice Domar, a pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine and a leader in reproductive health psychology. Dr. Domar shares insights from her decades of research and work with patients experiencing infertility, diving deep into the emotional and physical toll of fertility challenges and how stress can impact reproductive outcomes.

We discuss the groundbreaking research that links stress reduction to increased fertility success rates, the importance of patient-centered care, and how mind-body practices can transform the fertility journey. Dr. Domar also shares her thoughts on spirituality, the power of connection, and how fostering a sense of belonging can help patients navigate the emotional rollercoaster of infertility. This episode is packed with valuable insights and hope for anyone on the fertility journey.

Be sure to tune in as you won’t want to miss this eye-opening and inspiring conversation!

Key takeaways:

• Stress significantly impacts reproductive outcomes, and reducing stress can improve success rates in fertility treatments.

• Research shows infertility patients often experience anxiety and depression levels similar to those with major illnesses like cancer or heart disease.

• The brain and body are constantly connected, and managing stress through mind-body strategies can positively influence fertility.

• Connecting with spirituality or a higher power can help individuals cope with the emotional challenges of infertility.

• Isolation is common for those facing infertility, but connecting with support groups or programs can provide invaluable relief and healing.

• Cutting-edge research using physiological devices to measure stress in real-time may revolutionize how stress is addressed during fertility treatments.

• Empathy, connection, and compassionate care are essential for improving the patient experience and outcomes.

Guest Bio: Alice “Ali” Domar, Ph.D. is a pioneer in mind-body medicine, focusing on the relationship between stress, medical conditions, and lifestyle habits. She is Chief Compassion Officer at Inception Fertility, part-time associate professor at Harvard Medical School, and senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of Conquering Infertility and Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom and serves on advisory boards for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. Her work has been featured in Redbook, Health, and BeWell.com. Websites/Social Media Links: https://www.instagram.com/inceptionfertility/

https://inceptionfertility.com/about-us/our-team/ https://www.preludefertility.com/

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle and Lindsay Goodwin @fertilefrequencies explore the intersection of spirituality and fertility, discussing Lindsay's journey as an intuitive medium and healer. They delve into the concept of spirit babies, the emotional and subconscious factors affecting fertility, and the importance of surrendering to the process. The discussion emphasizes the integration of mind-body techniques and the role of emotions in manifesting desires, particularly in the context of fertility. Lindsay shares insights from her new podcast,'Fertile Frequencies,' aimed at providing support and guidance for those on their fertility journey.       Guest Bio:   Lindsay Goodwin is a fertility support and reproductive medicine pioneer who uniquely blends spiritual and energy healing techniques with scientific approaches for a truly holistic experience. With credentials as a certified master life coach for self-mastery, a certified NLP therapist, a hypnotherapist, a licensed acupuncturist, and a board-certified herbalist, Lindsay brings a unique comprehensive approach to health, personal growth, and awakening the power within.   As a certified fellow on ABORM and a spiritual fertility medium, Lindsay uniquely empowers clients to overcome health, emotional, and mindset challenges. She achieves this through a blend of evidence-based practices and energy tools, helping individuals overwhelmed by stress, life demands, and fertility obstacles to conquer anxieties, setbacks, and past traumas. Her work fosters new patterns that usher in joy, fulfillment, freedom, and the renewed energy to hope.   Lindsay's profound personal transformation further enriches her expertise. A near-death experience prompted her awakening to the divine power within us all, leading her to integrate science, consciousness, and the unseen energies for healing and abundance. Her leadership in higher consciousness, mindset, and physical health has guided countless individuals to reclaim their lives and achieve a state of harmony, growth, and fulfillment, and to know that they are so much more than just their physical bodies!   IG: @fertilefrequencies  YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FertileFrequencies Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/7usDvORdMFGzO2EILBsBju Website: https://garnetmoonlove.com/the-empowered-fertile-code-program/ Free Gift - Fertile Affirmations & Spirit Baby Connection: https://lindsay-goodwin-garnet-moon.mykajabi.com/fertile-affirmations-audio     For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:    Michelle (00:00) Welcome back to the podcast Lindsay.   Lindsay Goodwin (00:03) Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Michelle.   Michelle (00:06) Well, I love having you. We just had a whole long pre-talk. We just always connected. I always connected with you like from day one. So, and I love just seeing how you're progressing as a practitioner. And also as I was reading her bio, I mean, I really feel very aligned with how you see your healing, how you approach things, how you are staying in your truth with the   connection that you feel to spirit and also acknowledging how important that is in the healing process. And I think that, and we talked about this, there's this whole science versus this, it could be both. And I think that now we are moving into a place where we're actually bridging a lot of what has been shown that is sort of, it's being revealed almost like all the things that the ancients have been talking about for thousands of years.   is now starting to become revealed through science. And it's kind of interesting how that is happening right now in this time that we're living. We're starting to see a lot of things, even that the heart houses the mind through heart math, those kinds of things about coherence and how our heart is the the creative center and all of these different things, which I'm sure you're also very into. So I would love for you to just a quick   I mean, you've been on here before, but just a quick like background on you and how you got into this work and how you also in your own spirit, your own journey, connected with spirit and realized the importance of that when it comes to healing.   Lindsay Goodwin (01:51) Yeah, well, Michelle, thank you so much. And absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. We are definitely so aligned and I absolutely love the work that you're doing as well. And it's absolutely wonderful to meet other practitioners, healers, providers that are on the same path and are here to really help so many people that need it. So thank you so much. So really about how I got started. Well, I'm actually born intuitive medium. So as a child, I...   was very in tune almost as if I could hear people's thoughts. I just knew things that were much greater than what a three year old child because I remember about back when I was about three should know at that age and I also would see energy orbs. I just would know things about people know a lot about their emotions just was very intuitive. And so then as a child I grew up I run the age of seven is generally when we start to be conditioned and that's really when   The subconscious mind really starts to form is around the age of seven So that's when I kind of lost it and I started to try to fit into society like most of us And then when I was going through a divorce in my late 30s, I had a spiritual awakening I was actually robbed at gunpoint and during that experience I had an out-of-body experience   and I met what I refer to as God or universal energy, source energy, whatever you prefer to call it. And I was wrapped in gold light. It was almost like time had stopped. And the energy that was in the room, I do remember that it was radiating from behind the gunman that had the gun to my back. So the universe was also protecting them. So it was not only protecting me, but everyone because we are all connected. We're not separate. And so   It was really interesting to me. And there's also that saying, know, the universe. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty crazy. The universe always has your back. So, you know, I see things very I see things symbolically, but also that was very literal, like that saying the universe always has your back. I had a gun in my back, but there was this energy that was protecting me and the gunman. So during that time, I was not thinking about what you normally would think you would think about when you're going to lose your life.   Michelle (03:45) That's interesting.   Lindsay Goodwin (04:10) I wasn't thinking about my family. I wasn't thinking about my dog that I had at the time. I was only thinking about what I was seeing and I was seeing angels as well as this energy that I am speaking of this gold light. And I saw one of my spirit guides, his name is Bill. He was there and he had just transitioned out of his body back into spirit about six weeks before this had happened. And I saw my grandparents. And so I was told at this time,   that you need to wake up, you need to do what you're supposed to be doing, and you're gonna go back and you're gonna do this work. And so I remembered that, wow, I remember all these things, what I would experience as a child. It was like this beautiful kind of bittersweet sort of experience that happened because it woke me up. So after that, I really just all the intuitive stuff started coming in. I started taking a really strong interest in numerology.   consciousness and it just has opened up. And then I started getting a lot of messages from the babies. So I was a acupuncturist at the time. was and I still am an acupuncturist. And I was getting a lot of messages from babies and whether they would be in the aura of the person that I was treating, or they would actually be in the womb space and I would get messages from them.   I have regular dreams from what I call spirit baby guides that will come and share information with me about how to help people as well as people that I am working with. And so it's been very apparent and made very apparent to me what my job is. And I do not only treat fertility, I work with people on a just a very   helping people across the board with helping them really understand themselves. But fertility is a big part of my job. probably about 50%.   Michelle (06:08) Amazing. so spirit babies have always really intrigued me. And what is it that you feel orbs or what exactly do you feel when you see those spirit babies attached to your patients?   Lindsay Goodwin (06:25) Yeah, absolutely. So they can be sparkles. I see a lot of sparkles. The orbs of colors that I generally see will be blue, white, gold, sometimes purple, sometimes I will see pink. There have been times I have seen green. But the colors are specific. I haven't quite figured out why I only see certain colors.   Michelle (06:47) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (06:48) but they're very beautiful. They're like, if someone is sitting in my office or if I'm doing a virtual session because I work with people globally, that I can actually see these sparkles that will actually start to just come off of them or around them. And that could be a spirit baby. It could also be a passed on loved one that is guiding that particular person on their journey.   Michelle (07:03) Mm.   Lindsay Goodwin (07:11) But we're talking about spirit babies today. So definitely just the spirit in general could have that sort of sparkly sort of energy that I'll see in the person's energy field, which could also be known as biofield, which would be more of a scientific term if we're talking about auras. And then I just, see a lot in my third eye. So your third eye is right between your eyebrows. If people know about chakras, I know that you do, Michelle.   And so I get these thought forms. Sometimes they'll actually be words that will come across. Other times they'll be visuals like I will see the baby. I actually will see what they look like as well as their gender. They will show me different artifacts or objects that relate to the person that I'm reading so that that person will know that I'm actually telling them something that they can link up to and I'm not just making it up.   So that's one thing I've realized over the years with the spirit babies and just the spirit world in general is that things will come through that will resonate with you to confirm with you that you're not alone.   Michelle (08:18) Right. That's amazing. And what do you find or what are the messages that you get for people who are struggling to conceive yet they have a spirit baby around them? Like what is the holdup for the spirit baby coming through?   Lindsay Goodwin (08:33) Well, that's a very common question and there could be a bazillion different things, but I'll tell you some common areas that I see. There could be, you know, it could be that maybe subconsciously, this is where the subconscious mind comes in, which is really powerful. You're into that as well as also a certified hypnotherapist that our subconscious mind will create energy blocks and will make it so that we're thinking things under the radar.   Michelle (09:02) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (09:02) that could   be patterns about, maybe I won't be a good mom, maybe I won't be a good dad, maybe I won't be a good parent. And it could relate to some sort of traumatic event that happened. Maybe you had a mother that was emotionally unavailable. You couldn't speak your truth. You know, not necessarily saying that your parents were bad. It could be that maybe they just were dealing with their own things that were going on. And so you could be carrying around that trauma and not even realize that you're carrying it around. So...   Michelle (09:08) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (09:32) People often ask me, why is it so easy for some people to get pregnant, but it's difficult for me? Why have I had so much loss? Or maybe I have never even had a pregnancy or maybe I have secondary infertility. And the answer that I often get is that I remind people and letting them know that everybody's journey is different. And when we sign up to have these human experiences, we're coming in and we're creating different experiences.   Michelle (09:51) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (09:58) based on what our soul wants to learn in this physical 3D reality. And so if we're comparing our lives to other people and that, well, this person over here got pregnant really easily. Why is this person getting pregnant that doesn't even want the baby? Is this because everyone's journey is different as well as your spirit baby's journey is different. And so it could be a good example would be is that maybe you're someone that wanted to have a   lot more wisdom before you became a parent. Maybe you're someone that didn't want to be like your mother with your child. Maybe there was a lot of healing that needed to happen before your child actually would show up physically because you wanted to be in the best version of yourself to be able to give this child the life that maybe you didn't have.   Michelle (10:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah. I mean, there's the thing that I find is that, and I've gotten these ideas and downloads through meditation, through even going to Joe Dispenza events, because you're so immersed that you get these downloads, is that we are just simply not aware of the big picture. And we try to make conclusions based on parts and those parts of our life. so it's very hard to make a very   big picture conclusion when we don't have the big picture in front of us. And so part of that is really trusting that there's something else that does see the big picture that we're connected to and being able to surrender that. And that's another thing too that I've noticed is the surrender part. I think we're so conditioned to go after it that sometimes I like to kind of like think about, you know, the Chinese,   Lindsay Goodwin (11:26) Yeah.   Yeah.   Michelle (11:49) handcuffs or the finger cuffs or whatever. The faster you pull, the more you pull tightly and forcefully, the more you get stuck. Creating that kind of flow in your life will allow you to get the lesson faster, I feel like, and then you move faster. That's what I've noticed. Have you picked up on that?   Lindsay Goodwin (12:14) yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a client that I've been seeing since August and we've got some really good news yesterday. Her AMH went from a 0.44 or something like that to over 1.1 something. Yeah. And it's amazing. I just, it's yes, yes, absolutely. And she's in her forties. And I just, told her, what I tell my clients is you did that.   Michelle (12:31) Wow, that's amazing. That's great to hear for people to hear.   Lindsay Goodwin (12:44) You did that. mean, of course, supplements help acupuncture, but you did that because you have learned to let go of things that are no longer serving you. You're starting to really trust yourself. Your body is saying, yes, yes, yes, because your mind is saying, hey, I know my worthiness. I know that I deserve to be a mom because if I didn't deserve to be a mom, I wouldn't desire it.   Michelle (12:45) Yes. Right.   Lindsay Goodwin (13:10) Okay, and so she is really now believing that this is truly happening for her. It's a knowing now rather than it just, I'm looking for hope, I'm looking for encouragement, will this happen? She's actually knowing that it's happening and her body is responding to it because of her mind power. So I, you know, to get back to what you were talking about, you know, with surrendering, I often tell people with manifesting, whether it's a baby, because babies are manifestations.   Michelle (13:10) Mm-hmm, right.   Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (13:40) It's a partner, it's a business, it's a new house, whatever it is, it's better health. What we do, and this is challenging because we're not taught this, but as little kids, we know this. We put out into the universe that, okay, I'm gonna manifest this. You have to almost take it and put it up on the shelf and leave it there. You have to be unattached. Yes, exactly, you have to be unattached.   Michelle (13:40) Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.   Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You almost have to forget about it.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (14:10) to the how, the when, what it's gonna look like. And you're living your life and you're enjoying your magic and your light and your family and all the things that make you happy. I mean, when our perspective shifts, our whole world shifts. You can look at something one way or you can look at it another way. If you're looking at things and that things are abundant or you're looking at things of what I don't have,   Michelle (14:13) Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.   True.   Lindsay Goodwin (14:38) That's a very different feeling. And we know that the universe is responding to how we feel.   Michelle (14:44) yes. Yeah. It's the feelings. Yeah. The feelings really make a huge difference. And that's what they found actually in the research that Joe Dispenza does is because the researchers come up and talk and they say the two things that they saw, you know, the combination is thought emotions and emotional state. So that's one of the reasons why he focuses a lot on the heart and also this joy and the love.   Because when you feel those emotions, you can feel those emotions in very challenging times, yet you still can be very elevated. And I can tell you this, I I went through the loss of my father and it was a very challenging time to see him go through the transition. I knew he was gonna transition. I knew that I was witnessing to that. At the same time, I was able to get into a state of such love.   Lindsay Goodwin (15:38) Yeah.   Michelle (15:39) that   I felt more alive than like ever before. It felt like such a pivotal and sacred time, even though it could be judged as like this bad, dark time. And yes, it had very difficult, painful aspects to it, but the way I'm describing it now is it's a more neutral way. So you could look at something and acknowledge the pain in a more neutral perspective.   rather than looking at it and saying, this is good, this is bad. Because ultimately by doing that, or saying something's bad, you're limiting yourself. We were talking about that before. You're limiting yourself to that aspect of it. And that will impact your energy and how you're able to really show up in your life. And the energy impact can for sure impact the AMH. So all of these things that suck our energy throughout our life,   and mentally in the background are going to definitely impact the energy that can go into procreation. So it's this whole big picture.   Lindsay Goodwin (16:46) It really is. And you know, I love what you're saying. It's about giving meaning to things. know, once we give meaning to things, then it takes on its own energy. neutral is a very powerful way of explaining it. And I know that that can be challenging as a human being because we're encoded with emotions. It's part of the experience. But when you can learn, like the Buddha says, and I'm not Buddhist, but just, know, I love   Michelle (17:07) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (17:16) history and there's a lot of philosophies that are great, is that when you can live in that middle place, you know, rather than being too up here or too down here, you're just neutral. That's really when the manifestation happens. That's really when the happiness, that's where the joy is, because you're not attached to anything.   Michelle (17:23) Mm-hmm.   Yep. Yeah.   Yep.   Yes, it is. It's that golden path. know, Eckhart Tolle refers to that as the present moment. And Chinese medicine can refer to that or Taoism as flow. You know, that is that golden path that is, it's neither one extreme or the other. It's here in the center. It's that neutrality.   And many different ancient cultures have been pointing to that. And many different spiritual teachers refer to that because that is the portal. And Eckhart Tolle says that that present moment is the portal really to the endlessness. So it's, it's when we're able to really let go and, know, also not the, not get hung up on the past and hold on to all of that and not get too identified with the future.   just really being in that center moment. If you think about that, if you truly, truly get into that state, you're very free. You're free. And when you're free, energetically, you're able to really connect to a wealth of power and energy to create whatever you need to create.   Lindsay Goodwin (18:47) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have to add to that, you know, I don't know if you ask yourself this, but I find it quite interesting if we're just talking about Chinese medicine. How is it that ancient philosophers of Chinese medicine came up with everything that they knew about the internal parts of the body and the spiritual energy with no diagnostics, no MRI machine, no ultrasound, no ability to look at the blood. They were channeling.   They were channeling energy.   Michelle (19:19) 100%. 100%. They were connected to that wealth of intelligence that we all have. We all are connected to. And I love that you mentioned that because you and I are both interested kind of like in the scientific research of the spirituality and like really understanding that because it's a great tool and it could be used as a great tool. However, they didn't have that back then.   Lindsay Goodwin (19:21) Thank   Absolutely.   Michelle (19:45) And so that just shows, and it's actually being proven just by itself, that just shows that there is an intelligence that we are connected to, that we can connect to without necessarily having to dissect it.   Lindsay Goodwin (20:02) Yep, absolutely. And I say this often too, if science was a silver bullet for everything, are people not able to get pregnant with IVF?   Michelle (20:12) Right. my God, such a good point.   Lindsay Goodwin (20:16) I mean, it works for a lot of people. I'm not anti Western medicine or modern medicine at all. I think it's great. I believe in integrative medicine. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, think what makes what we do so powerful too. We can see both sides of the coin and really help people to understand their bodies, but also understand that, wow, we've got this energy part that can't always be proven. Right. And so   Michelle (20:19) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Me too, yeah.   Yes, 100%.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (20:44) you know, it's just that's, that's what people want. That is where we are going as an energy collective as integrative. It's not, you know, one side, one sided, you know, this is an integrative process that's happening because science is great. mean, there's so many wonderful, just advantages to live in this time where we have science, because for example, if someone has   Michelle (20:52) Mm-hmm.   Yes, yeah, it's whole.   Lindsay Goodwin (21:13) Say they have a partner that has some sort of DNA issue with their sperm and if they get pregnant naturally, they've had several miscarriages and that's painful to go through. IVF would be a great option because then we can create an embryo that is healthy and then we have a healthy baby. They're not going through that emotional roller coaster. It's not just that. I'm just giving one example.   Michelle (21:20) Mm-hmm.   Correct.   Lindsay Goodwin (21:43) Okay, but when we're just saying that it's just one way or the other, it's making it very limited for people. And I don't think that that's fair. This is my opinion and I know that you're on the same page too. But like, this is what we are going to see further that we go into just where we're headed as just humans. People want more of the energy.   Michelle (21:43) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (22:11) options in health in general. You're moving away from being, I'm going to take this pill and that pill and I'm going to, you know, people don't want that anymore. I don't want that. I mean, you and I haven't been wanting that for years because we wouldn't be where we are if we did. And again, I'm not, I'm not knocking. I'm not talking bad about science. I think that, like I said, it's, it's wonderful. It does wonderful things.   Michelle (22:13) Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Yeah.   Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (22:38) but we have to open our mind a little bit more to things.   Michelle (22:41) For sure. There's definitely a place   for everything. And I think that as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about the neutrality aspect of it, looking at it objectively and saying, Hey, you know, this is one tool and then this is another tool. And sometimes this tool is a tool that can be very beneficial, but it shouldn't be the only tool because there are other tools like energetic that we don't necessarily see that can be very beneficial. And in fact, sometimes can enhance the, maybe the medical tools.   Lindsay Goodwin (22:49) the   Yeah, absolutely. Well, they have found studies, know, Harvard Medical School for, it was not contemporary medicine, but it's the alternative side of the medical school. They did a study where they found that they had two different groups. And the one group that followed a mind body, which what was included with that was meditations, mindfulness, as well as visualizations.   Michelle (23:38) Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (23:38) Hypnotherapy,   medical intuition, mean, all these energy modalities, they had a 55 % success rate of healthy babies, where the other group that didn't follow that particular program chose not to do it or just didn't do it the way that it was designed for them had about a 20 % success rate. So we really are seeing that when we are integrating, like you just stated, these mind-body techniques that   Michelle (24:07) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (24:07) they can   really enhance these medical therapies that people are using with Western medicine like IVF.   Michelle (24:15) yeah, it is so powerful and I'm glad that finally there's attention put on it because I think that because it's so abstract, a lot of these visualizations or visualizations being different than what you just said, like which is more mindfulness, but in general, like getting into the state of our being that is more abstract. It's not something that we can easily dissect or it's not as tangible as others.   And I think for that reason specifically, it can be very easily ignored. So I love the fact that there is data showing the evidence of that working because it's powerful and I think it'll get more people on board to do that. And not only will it help their fertility, but it's also going to help their life.   Lindsay Goodwin (25:04) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because you know, it's I have a lot of vivid dreams, one that I had earlier this year. And I'm not religious in any way. But I get messages in there what they are. And the message was is the kingdom is within you. And we all know that if people read the Bible, or they've seen that. And again, I'm not necessarily a pusher of the Bible by any means, I'm a spiritual person. So I don't push any sort of religion. So very open.   Michelle (25:22) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (25:34) But, you know, it's interesting to me because when I was having this dream, it was a presence, it was a consciousness. And again, I think that this was source energy God, which is all of us anyway. It's we're not separate from that, like you stated. And so there was these all these lapis lazuli stones that were coming out of what I know to be my body.   Michelle (25:48) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm. Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (26:04) And I did not know, but in the Bible it states that Lapis Lazuli was made, that was what the throne of what God, I guess in the Bible, was actually made from. So it was very powerful and that shook me up. If the robbery and the out of body experience didn't, that one did, that we're all so powerful.   Michelle (26:04) Mm-hmm.   wow.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (26:33) And you   don't necessarily have to be having dreams like I do. I'm here to share these dreams. I'm here to share this information, just like you, to help people to realize that you have the power to create and be anything that you want. You have the power to heal yourself. And by no means disclaimer, am I recommending that people stop taking their medications or stop their treatment? But you do. You have the power, but it's   Michelle (26:55) Yes. Yeah.   Lindsay Goodwin (27:02) really starting to believe that and that can take some healing work, know, working with someone that can help you with that. But I always tell people when they work with me, we're not meant to work together forever. We're meant to get the work done that we're meant to do together and then you're going to be better and you're going to find your own magic. And then you're going to be able to help other people by you just being you. Yeah.   Michelle (27:04) Mm-hmm.   Yeah.   Mm-hmm.   Yes, it does happen often.   And then what are some things, because we talk about the mind body and obviously there are certain techniques, like we talked about mindfulness. What are some techniques that people can look into that can help them utilize this incredible force of their mind?   Lindsay Goodwin (27:47) Yeah, absolutely. So techniques that I use would be hypnotherapy, which I know you use as well, Michelle, and neuro linguistic programming, which is NLP, which is being able to tap into the subconscious mind. It also is the study of body language. So it's the study like the FBI uses it to be able to solve cases and be able to tell if people are telling the truth or not.   Michelle (28:07) Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (28:11) Now that's a really powerful way to be able to work with somebody too, because sometimes you could even be lying to yourself, not even realize that you're doing it. So I'm able to see really, and it does not, we can be virtual, does not necessarily have to be in person. Energy has no barriers with us being across the world or across the country like you and I are. And so we can use these tools to be able to tell what's going on in somebody's subconscious mind.   Michelle (28:17) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (28:39) probably are not consciously aware of. So then what we do is I use different tools to be able to help them to learn how to reprogram those behaviors because the subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between real and fake. So if you're constantly unconsciously telling yourself, like I was stating before, that I don't know if I'm going to be a good parent. I don't know if this is going to work out for me. What if I've had clients, for example, that have had maybe their   Michelle (28:41) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (29:09) their mom had secondary infertility and they heard about that. I have one actually that's happened to and she did not even realize this. And then when she started working with me, we identified that her mom had secondary infertility when she was trying to have her. So she'd been constantly telling herself since she was about 12 years old that she was gonna have infertility, infertility, infertility. I have another client I worked with years ago that did IVF.   Michelle (29:23) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (29:36) And she had some of the lowest AMH that I've ever seen on somebody that was young. I mean, she was under 30. And she we identified and figured out that her aunt had infertility. And she had been telling herself over and over again, she was a little girl that she was going to have infertility. Well, she did one baby with IVF, all the other ones like three more three or four more came naturally. So once she got over that   that subconscious belief that she was going to have trouble with having a baby, then she just had babies naturally. So was something that she needed to get over in her journey. So NLP, Neuro Linguistic Program is really powerful. Visualizations are really powerful, mindfulness, meditation. I do a lot of visualization with my clients as well as helping them with their chakras, which are the energy centers located in the spine.   to really identify also my medical intuitive so really identify where there's imbalancing happening and then figuring out what emotions are attached to that what sort of traumas are attached to that for example a lot of women have a blocked throat chakra which when we have a blocked throat chakra yeah it is yeah yeah exactly that will block up the womb space   Michelle (30:47) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, and lapis lazuli is good for that.   And it's interesting how the thyroid impacts reproductive, organs and health.   Lindsay Goodwin (31:08) Yep. It's the biggest one. It's the biggest gland in that endocrine system. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, we could go into endocrinology and the spiritual. That's always fun. Yeah.   Michelle (31:19) Yeah, but also expression, know, so that expression   opening up the heart, heart opening up the uterus. I mean, there's so many aspects and that's the thing too with chakras is that yes, they each have their own indication and behaviors and patterns, but they also have an interlinking workings with each other.   Lindsay Goodwin (31:42) Yep. It's all connected just like the Chinese philosophers of Eastern medicine.   Michelle (31:48) Yeah. Amazing. This is so interesting. mean, I can talk to you for hours. I can keep talking about like everything, but I wanted to ask if people are interested. I know you have a new podcast, which is awesome. And so talk about your new podcast and also talk about how people can reach out to you if they want to work with you.   Lindsay Goodwin (31:53) same.   Yes.   Yeah, absolutely. So new podcast is fertile frequencies. I created that. Thank you. I created that because I really wanted to bring more of an integration of the unseen energies of the energies of spirit babies, energetic, spiritual fertility, which by the way, is not religious, it is spiritual, it's energy. Often that's a question that people will ask me about. That's kind of why I call it more energetic spiritual fertility. So people kind of understand this from an energy standpoint.   Michelle (32:13) I love that.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (32:40) And so really talking with people, giving you the encouragement on your fertility journey, knowing that this is manifesting for you, understanding more about your physical body, but knowing that your fertility is way more than just your physical body. So we do get into some of the dynamics of things like egg quality, as well as IVF, talking about nutrition, different supplements.   I do talk about that, but I'm more about the energy. I feel like there's a lot of information out there about the physical side of fertility. So a lot of great content creators, like people, and of course you have a great podcast as well, that are already doing that. So there's not enough of the energy. So yeah, so that is a lot if you're into that, which if you listen to Michelle's podcast, I'm sure that you are into the energy side of fertility.   Michelle (33:07) Mm-hmm.   Yep.   I agree.   Mm-hmm.   Lindsay Goodwin (33:31) And so just started that, I'm gonna have some really great experts on there. I'd love to have you on there as well. That's coming up. So it's definitely getting bigger than I think I was expecting it to. I think it's just time. It's time for this message to be out. Yeah, it's aligned, exactly. I do have a fertility program coming out as well. Of course, it's coming out in this month.   Michelle (33:46) It's time. It's aligned. time.   Lindsay Goodwin (33:56) And then I do have a VIP fertility program where you can work one-on-one with me and I do design a unique fertility program for you that has the physical aspects in it, but I do walk you through, help you with changing some of those subconscious patterns, helping you to really manifest the healthy pregnancy that you're looking for. And if you're interested in that, I do offer a 45 minute call where we can go through the program and I can meet you and we can answer any questions. I can answer any questions that you have.   and see how I can help. I'm only going to work with people that I know I can help. So I'm very honest about that as well. I think integrity is a huge part of this. So first step is seeing if we're a good fit. And then I also have some free resources as well. If you'd like to, I have an ebook on fertility, some seven essential steps to download, an ebook download to help you with some of those essential steps getting started on your fertility journey, or if you're someone that   Michelle (34:30) Mm-hmm.   Yeah, for sure.   Lindsay Goodwin (34:55) has been trying for a while. That would be helpful as well. And I do have a fertility affirmations and meditation available that you can download that is a free download as well. definitely I'm now on Insight timer. So you can download it on there. Yeah. So yeah.   Michelle (35:09) Mm-hmm. awesome. Cool.   That's great. And all of Lindsay's information will be in the episode notes in case anybody wants to find it. Lindsay, I absolutely love talking to you. I feel so aligned with your way and method of teaching and also your perspective on fertility and health.   So it's always a pleasure talking to you. Happy new year. Well, right now it's, by the time this airs, it's going to be way past new year, but it is January 1st today. So thank you so much for coming on.   Lindsay Goodwin (35:34) you   Yeah.   Thank you so much, Michelle, and thank you to all of your listeners and so much love and encouragement. And just know that it's all happening for you.

On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive deep into a fascinating and vital topic—how stress impacts the gut-brain connection and, in turn, your fertility health. We’ll explore how chronic stress affects your nervous system, gut microbiome, and hormonal balance, and I'll share actionable tips to regulate your nervous system, support gut health, and optimize fertility. Tune in to learn how to empower your mind and body for a thriving fertility journey!     Takeaways  

• The gut and brain are connected via the vagus nerve, creating a two-way communication system that influences stress and digestion.
• Chronic stress diverts blood flow away from vital organs, impacting digestion, hormone balance, and fertility.
• Practices like diaphragmatic breathing, meditation, and ear massage can activate the vagus nerve, promoting a"rest and digest" state.
• A diverse and healthy gut microbiome supports hormonal health, reduces inflammation, and enhances fertility.
• Emotional stress drains the body’s reserves and can lead to hormonal imbalances like lowered progesterone levels.
• Mindful eating habits, such as chewing food thoroughly and avoiding distractions, improve digestion and gut health.
• Acupuncture and other TCM techniques help regulate the nervous system and support overall fertility wellness.

    For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility     Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/       Transcript:   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. On today's episode, I'm going to be talking about a topic that I've talked about before, but it's a little different. And I am going to be discussing stress and its impact on fertility. Now, I've spoken about stress before, we've had many, many different episodes talking about how stress can impact fertility, and I know a lot of people say, Oh, does it really impact fertility? Yes. When it gets broken down, absolutely, and indirectly in some ways. So today I'm actually going to be talking about the gut brain connection, how stress can impact the gut and how the gut. is super important for fertility health. So stay tuned. So I find this topic actually really, really fascinating because the [00:01:00] gut is super smart. Actually, it has its own nervous system and it's really fascinating just how it runs. And I tend to be really fascinated by the nervous system as it is. And I think that the nervous system is one of the things that We don't really pay that much attention to, but it really does make a difference on so many factors and so many things in our body. And really, it makes such a difference and influence on how we feel in our life and how we perceive the world as well. And if you really think about the influence of stress on the nervous system, then you can see how it really is a Such a direct relationship. Stress is really how our nervous system reacts and responds to the life around us. Now, I always say this, I've said this before, and I'm going to say this today again, is that it's not about   [00:02:00]eliminating stress or eradicating stress. As a matter of fact, stress can actually make us stronger. So having moments of stress, I mean, if you think about going to the gym and building muscle, One of the reasons why we get stronger is because of the stress and stress can also impact the bones and help the bones. So having that extra stress actually strengthens the bones. So stress can actually be something that can be alchemize to help our bodies to help our life like if you have difficulties or challenges in your life, you'll find that it actually makes you stronger and it makes you smarter and it gets you to think about things differently than you would have normally. And if you don't have that element of stress, then you don't really have that opportunity of growth. So stress is incredibly advantageous when it is not chronic when it's not all the time and we as humans and this is really like even how we learn about the body through Chinese medicine   [00:03:00] is that A lot of things in our bodies and a lot of things in nature run in pulses, it runs in rhythms. So when you have something all the time without that break, that's when it can lead to imbalance. So when you have like pulses of stress or things that come and go, That is when the body is able to have the pulse and then it goes back into a more yin phase. I've spoken about the yin and the yang, which are really two opposing opposites that need each other in order to create harmony and balance. And that harmony and balance is something that conventional medicine will say or call homeostasis. And homeostasis is basically a state that the body always strives for in order to thrive. And that is the ultimate. So homeostasis is that balance that keeps us in check. It keeps the hormones in check. It keeps everything in check. Now, in order to have that, we   [00:04:00] can't have too much yang or too much yin. We need the two. And this is how we have a pulse. A pulse is something that goes back and forth. and that back and forth is what keeps things in balance. So it can go back and forth, but then eventually grow into strength. So having that stress, but then having that recovery and that combination of the two is what actually gets us stronger. However, many cases our nervous system is hyper stimulated, hyper meaning over. So overstimulated by electronics, by sound, by things that are typically not occurring in nature if we were to be living really in accordance with nature and what we used to do in the past when we didn't have all these man made things like light at night or really loud noises from the garbage truck things that are   [00:05:00]really not Something that you find in nature sounds that you don't really hear in nature, bright lights that you don't see in nature, things that are not typical to what our bodies are actually programmed to be used to, and also to understand the process. So when we have that extreme hyper stimulation all the time, and now I'm not even talking about the emotional stress. I'm just talking about. So I'm going to talk about the stressors that we are exposed to day in and day out that also stimulate our nervous system. And by stimulating it all the time, it actually weakens it. It makes you more tired. So in Chinese medicine, we talk about excess and deficiency, and that's kind of like the yin and the yang. And when we have too much excess, it can lead to deficiency because the body has to process that excess. And when there's just too much coming at it at once, it can make it more deficient. Just think   [00:06:00] about a computer. If you're throwing in so many different software and really loading it up over time, it's going to get slower and it's going to get in the way of its ability to process signals and it takes a little longer to do things. So now that we covered that aspect of stress, there's also emotional stress, and if you notice, emotions actually take a lot of energy in the body, and so having that stress chronically of emotions, that drains the body of reserves, and it can also impact it. how we feel and impact the state of our brains. And it also has been shown to create a more incoherent state of brain waves. And that's been studied and observed in HeartMath Institute where they study the heart brain coherence. And it's really, really fascinating work because they're actually seeing that there's a relationship between the heart and the brain and the heart has   [00:07:00] always been in Chinese medicine said to house the brain, which is interesting because nobody really understood from a conventional medicine perspective, what that really meant. Or it was kind of like, okay, well that's, I guess their perspective on it or their theory. But now science is actually showing that that is really in fact true. And as a matter of fact, the heart acts as a brain and it can really pick up on things before the brain even picks up on them. So your heart is in a sense even more powerful than the brain itself. Now when it comes to the brain and stressors and impacts of the stressors on the brain, that can impact a fight and flight. response from your body. So we know one thing that's really fascinating is that there's a bi directional relationship between the brain and your gut. So your gut has its   [00:08:00] own nervous system and it's called the enteric nervous system. And your brain is connected to the central nervous system and that central nervous system gets information from the brain and it also receives information from the body. So how that is connected to the gut is through the vagus nerve. So the vagus nerve is kind of like playing operator and it has a bidirectional communication pathway from the enteric nervous system, which is our gut nervous system. And that basically runs from your mouth to your anus. So basically it runs throughout the whole thing and it has hundreds of thousands of neurons and that is pretty fascinating. But the fascinating thing is that it is connected via the vagus nerve to your brain and your brain connects with your gut. So when you have stressors that are impacting the integrity of the way your brain is   [00:09:00]functioning, when there are too many Difficulties and coherences  and dysfunctional stressors  that can impact your nervous system and also impact you to be more in a fight or flight situation. state, then that can impact your gut health as well. So when the vagus nerve is activated, the vagus nerve can get you into a more rest and digest state. And that rest and digest state is optimal for your digestive system. And that is what you want. You want your body to be in a state of where fluids can flow freely, because you'll find that if you are in a fight or flight State your mouth gets really dry. It's like the fluids get like dried up and  what happens is in those situations where your body perceives a danger, it knows that it can't focus on anything else, but the ability to run or to fight if you can't run. So what   [00:10:00] happens is your body automatically will start to send it. blood to the arms and to the legs and away from your organs. So that, where does that move away from? It moves away from your heart. It moves away from your liver. It moves away from all your internal organs, moves away from your digestion. It moves away from your uterus and your ovaries. And to have yourself be in a state that is chronically like that, it's going to impact how your body is going to nourish itself and regenerate. And that of course is going to impact your fertility health. So yes, stress can really, really impact fertility health. But a very big reason for why is also because it impacts your gut health. And your gut health is central to your fertility health. It can impact how your body is able to process nutrients, how your body is   [00:11:00] able to get energy, how your body deals with inflammation, and how your body's immune system operates. All things that contribute greatly to your fertility. fertility health. And it also impacts your body's microbiome, not just the gut microbiome, but it can also influence your vaginal microbiome and your uterine microbiome. So it can impact so many things and it's such a trickle effect. And that's the thing with a body that is so amazing, but also can be challenging for, you know, Sometimes conventional medicine to approach, because if you take pieces of the body or parts of the body and just focus on that part, you're just not going to get the full picture. And this is why I love Chinese medicine is because it looks at the full circle, the full picture and how all the different parts work together. And it's like a big, huge web that   [00:12:00] intercommunicates with each other. So when you start to realize that. You don't need to really figure it out all together, and that's a thing that I do want to stress in this. Um, no pun intended, but I do want to mention that ultimately all the things that I'm telling you is really to give you a big picture about it, but you don't have to figure out exactly how it works. It's really more an understanding. of really what stress can do to your gut. The reason I say this is because your body's actually really intelligent and your body knows what to do. So when you get it to a state where you regulate your nervous system, and I'm going to be sharing things and to do's towards the end of this. So you can keep listening to find out. But when you do get yourself to that state, Then your body knows exactly what it needs to do. You don't have to figure it out and you don't even have to tell the body what to do. The body already knows what to do. All it needs is an environment that feels   [00:13:00] safe for it to do so. Another thing to note is that the brain. not only impacts the gut, but the gut can also impact the brain. So the gut can also impact our ability to produce serotonin, which is a neurotransmitter that impacts your mood and overall wellbeing. So if you have any kind of issues with your gut, it can also impact the brain and that can create more stress. So it's bi directional. And that is what is so fascinating about this is that you can really impact your gut through your brain and you can impact your brain through your gut. So besides stress impacting your gut, I also want to mention that it can also elevate cortisol levels, which cortisol is a hormone and again, cortisol has a lot of benefits for the body as well, but you don't want it to be chronic. When it's chronic, it can suppress ovulation. It can also  Lower progesterone levels. So that's one of the   [00:14:00] reasons why somebody can have lowered progesterone is from high stress. And progesterone is really important. It's important for fertility, obviously, but it's really, really important for pregnancy. So to, in order to sustain a pregnancy, you need good, healthy amounts of progesterone. So, I wanted to mention a couple of really interesting studies and one of them was the study on Tibetan monks and what they did was they actually looked at the gut microbiome of those Tibetan monks and also neighbors and so basically what they found was that, um, the microbiome of the meditators and the microbiome of the neighbors. And they both ate similar foods. They were exposed to the same water. They lived in the same area. The only difference really was that the meditators meditated all day. And what they found was that the gut microbiome and the meditators was a lot more enriched and a lot more   [00:15:00] diverse than the ones of the neighbors. And that's pretty fascinating because What that shows you is that there are types of microbiome and what it looked like for the meditators is associated with a lot less risk of inflammation and risk of heart disease and lots of different. autoimmune conditions. So it protected them basically by having that enriched gut microbiome. It protected their bodies, but it also shows us that their meditations have something to do with the gut microbiome. Something else that I want to note Is if you've been listening to me, you probably are sick of hearing me talk about Dr. Joe Dispenza, because I absolutely have been so influenced by his work. And when I went to his retreat,  they basically studied the participants blood and their gut microbiome is one of the things that they study in brain waves and amongst many other things. And what they   [00:16:00] found was that when they take the stool samples of the participants from the beginning before they actually start the week long meditation retreat, they check their stools before and then they check it afterwards and they find that it's drastically different and it has way more diversity in their microbiome and it's associated with much better health. Okay. And so that's pretty fascinating. And that's something that I directly had experience to watching. So it seems like basically that through meditation and through mindfulness practices Or any kind of practices that lower stress that that can impact the gut microbiome, which is fascinating because then it gives us a lot of power. It gives us a feeling of empowerment that you really can make a difference in your gut just through your mind alone. Another really fascinating study that I found was that they   [00:17:00] had correlations between certain types of mental disorders and some of them were even mild depression or mild anxiety all the way leading to bipolar and other types that were more severe. And what they found was that there was an interesting pattern of the microbiome and it was a similar type of microbiome pattern where it showed some microbiome dysbiosis that related to the mental condition. that the person had. So depending on what it was, there seemed to be a pattern in their gut microbiome, which is another incredibly fascinating thing. And something that I also heard about was fecal implants, I don't necessarily suggest it. I think it's still an experimental phase, something that you might want to ask your doctor about if you really have gone through a lot, but. Definitely do your   [00:18:00] research because I know that it's not something that I think that it's not something without any risks at all. But what they found, which was fascinating about this, is that when they did the fecal transplant, the person would basically take a transplant of poop, it's kind of gross, from somebody who has a really good enriched microbiome. And they basically transplanted that poop from that person to the other person, who'd take the poop and put it back. into the person who had dysbiosis or issues with their gut. And what they found was that it influenced their gut health because what happened was that microbiome would start to populate and grow in numbers for the person that needed it. And they found that not only did it help in many cases with gut conditions, but it also helped with mental conditions. Um, it helped with ADHD and many other types of mental diagnoses. So it was [00:19:00] really, really, really fascinating that that can really make such a difference, but it can. So it is kind of cool to know this because then you realize that yes, I can approach this through the gut itself. Which a lot of people do, but many times people get so focused sort of on like the physical body that they ignore the mental body. And I find that I meet a lot of people, whether it's my clients or in person or online. where they have spoken to functional doctors, they know pretty much what supplements to take, what to eat, and they figured it all out and almost to a point where it caused them a lot of mental stress. But the focus was so much just on the physical that the mental was ignored. And it is something that is easy to ignore because. It's something that we don't really see, we can't touch, it's something that kind of operates behind the   [00:20:00] scenes, and most of the time, our eyes, when they're open, are focused on the world around us, so it's easier for us to focus on that. and not close our eyes and go within, which is what a lot of these mindfulness practices teach us. And this is actually something that I cover a lot in my book, the way of fertility, because I thought it was so important. What I found just really in working in this field is that That is the most ignored aspect of our being and it's because it can be actually really frustrating to deal with. It's frustrating to do something and work with something and focus on something that we can't really hold and it's not as tangible. And it feels like we have less control, but ultimately by doing so and allowing ourselves to experience that feeling, the feelings that come up with it, that's when we actually do start to feel   [00:21:00] more of a sense of control. So it's kind of like a little paradox in its own experience. but I do highly recommend looking into it. But I'm going to talk about not just the mindfulness aspect, but I'm also going to talk about really tangible ways that you can impact your nervous system. And of course I'm going to mention acupuncture. And that is something that I do. And acupuncture, is incredibly beneficial on regulating the nervous system. It works on your circuits, basically. I mean, to really say it in the most simplest way, obviously, acupuncture is a lot more complex than just calling it circuits, but it's really beneficial. To say circuits, it makes it easier for the mind to really envision. Do you basically have circuits in your body and that circuits and the pulses that the circuits bring, which is really the channels inside your body. When you're stimulating that with acupuncture, it can really help regulate   [00:22:00] the nervous system and basically restart that. And so what that does is over time and not in the beginning, sometimes in the beginning you could feel more tired, but over time it'll increase your energy. But also will help you feel calm at the same time. So I call it calm alert. And I love that combination when you're calm and you're alert, which is the opposite of like having a lot of coffee to try to like force yourself to have energy and then you're jittery. So no, no jitters, you're super alert, but you're also calm. It's like the perfect combination. So acupuncture can really support that in many different ways, not just by regulating your own patterns, but also by stimulating the channels and also by doing auricular therapy, which is really addressing the points on the ears. The ears are one area that make the vagus nerve accessible. The vagus nerve, which is that go between your brain and your gut is really, really important. , when it gets stimulated, it   [00:23:00] actually stimulates the rest and digest part of your nervous system. So that could be really, really impactful on your gut health. And so one of the ways that you could do this, so acupuncture is one of the ways, but one of the ways that you could do this at home is simply by massaging your ears every single day. You could do this at night and you could do this in the shower. Or you could do this whenever you remember to do it. But massaging your ears can almost immediately have an impact on the nervous system. So it not almost immediately. It actually does have that. So that's something that you might want to do. And while you're doing that, You can also do some deep breathing. So working that diaphragm. So diaphragmatic breathing where we're breathing from the belly, that's ultimately the best way to breathe. We are trained over time and conditioned to breathe through the ribs and. while   [00:24:00] the ribs are part of how we breathe, the most effective way to breathe is through the diaphragm. So you can practice this by putting your hand on your belly and feeling your belly go in and out and train yourself to do that. Get back into that. And you can actually train yourself to do that. I used to not do that. And I, Now I train myself to do that. That is just the way I breathe. It's not going to give you a huge belly. You know, people are so afraid of that, that they start to breathe the wrong way. And ultimately it helps oxygenate your body much better, but then also when you're doing some breathing exercises, it can also calm the vagus nerve. One of the ways to do this is by inhaling to four counts, holding your breath and then exhaling to eight counts. So when you exhale longer than you inhale, you get yourself into a more rest and digest mode.   [00:25:00] If you have issues sleeping at night, this is a great exercise to do and you could literally combine that with massaging your ears and also slowing down your breath and holding it on the inhale and holding it a little bit on the exhale. So controlling that breath. And then filling up the lungs all the way and then exhaling all the air out. Another thing that you can do is hum. So humming that vibration sound from your throat can actually impact and stimulate the vagus nerve. So that's another way to stimulate the vagus nerve. And generally speaking, things like yoga, qigong, and movement that becomes more conscious can also regulate your nervous system. And you can also, as you're laying down, if you have any issues falling asleep, you can also do something called Yoga Nidra. You can find many different ones on YouTube   [00:26:00] where they guide you through focusing on the different parts of your body. But becoming aware of your body sensations is another way to really make that strong connection between your brain and your awareness and your body. So that is really what I have for the mind. But then when it comes to your gut, you could do a lot of things too, to support your mind and to support your gut. And so my number one rule for this, number one, is chew your food. Chew your food so that it becomes complete mush. And I remember hearing, when I was studying Ayurveda, I remember hearing my teacher shared this quote, and I was like, oh my god, this It's true. And he said, drink your food and eat your drink. So I'm like, okay, you know, it's kind of weird to hear the first time you hear about it, but drink your food, meaning you choose so well that you basically have a smoothie   [00:27:00] in your mouth, ready to like swallow like a drink. And then also taking your time with it. The drinks and the soups and kind of giving yourself a little more time in your mouth because what happens is Your saliva has these amazing enzymes that help break down your food Once it enters your gut so that is the first process and probably the most important because you want to start that foundation of digestion right and that foundation starts with mastication which is chewing and combining that with with your saliva. So not only liquefying it, but also liquefying it with liquid gold, which is digestive enzymes that you're able to really get into the food so that the food is able to process and the digestive system doesn't have as hard of a time doing what it does because the digestive system process is actually very energy   [00:28:00]consuming and that is one of the reasons why we need to rest and digest. We get more tired after we eat because our bodies need energy in order to digest. So when you're doing that, you're actually making it easier and creating a much more efficient digestive process. Secondly, if you're going to have proteins, Combine them with vegetables or some fibers so that you're able to process it and really chew it. But also the biggest, most difficult to digest meals should be eaten when the sun is strongest outside. What that does is that our bodies respond very much to the environment and it will respond to that digestive fire. So having that sun very strong will impact our Agni, which is the digestive fire, and that will impact how we're able to process food. And I also suggest eating less at night. As the sun goes down, your   [00:29:00] digestive system also starts to sleep. So it's important during that time to go easy. And you can have soups, steamed vegetables, really, really light meals at night. and then allow your stomach and your digestive system a little fasting time in the evening before you go to sleep. Your sleep is going to be a lot better because again, all that energy that usually goes into digestion can go into repair, into balancing hormones, into replenishing your body as you sleep. Plus your sleep will be deeper and better if you, don't have too much in your stomach. I also highly suggest getting on a good probiotic. And the one I like, and again, it really depends on your gut condition because you might need different protocols, but the company I like is microbiome labs and they do gut testing. They also do,   [00:30:00] they have lots of different supplements. Megasporbiotic is the most common one  for people with really complex digestive issues, they might benefit from going with something a little more gentle than Megasporbiotic and doing like a one strain in the beginning so their body gets used to it. But I highly recommend their products because they are really, really top notch. And lastly, you could do this while you shower, you could do this after your shower, massaging your belly is one of the most impactful things, not just for your gut, but it can also impact your uterus and get more blood flow to that area. So really just massaging in clockwise circles. So as you're looking at your belly, circle around your belly button and you can do a wide circle until you get closer to the belly button and then go wide again and then go back and forth like that. Then you can go   [00:31:00] from the top of the rib cage down to the belly button and then from your pubic bone up and from the sides towards the center of your belly button and diagonal. And really you are intuitive and your hands are intuitive. So your hands will figure out how it feels good to massage your belly. So you can press in certain points that feel like it needs more movement or if it feels stagnant and you'll get to feel what you need because that's ultimately what happens when we start to connect with our bodies. And lastly, just a really good habit to get into is mindful eating, becoming aware of what you're eating and not doing other things like watching TV or being on your phone, just sitting and looking at your food because you do start salivating when you look at your food. Looking at your food is also the beginning of digestion. So becoming mindful with your food, also tasting your food, chewing your food, and     [00:32:00] becoming aware of how certain foods make you feel and really connecting with that because that will connect you to intuitive eating, where you intuitively know what is good for you and what is not good for you. So that concludes today's episode, and I hope you enjoy this. To me, this is a really fascinating topic, and it's something that I think a lot of people should really give attention to, because the mind and the gut are really both important things in life. when it comes to your fertility health. And it also will help the process so that you don't feel as stressed and you feel more ready and equipped to get through this. because we know the fertility journey is challenging as it is. So I hope you feel more empowered with this message. And if you guys feel connected to the content that I am sharing, please subscribe. And I would be so grateful   [00:33:00] for a review. Thank you so much for listening in and I hope you have a beautiful day.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Vida Delrahim and Ronit Menashe share their personal journeys from corporate careers to founding WeNatal, a company focused on improving fertility through better prenatal supplements. They discuss the importance of addressing both male and female health in the preconception phase, the science behind their product formulations, and the need for education and resources for couples trying to conceive. Their mission is to empower individuals with knowledge and high-quality supplements to enhance fertility outcomes.   Takeaways

• Ronit and Vida met at Nike and became best friends.
• Ronit's experience in functional medicine changed their trajectory.
• Miscarriages led them to explore fertility solutions more deeply.
• Men contribute to 50% of miscarriages due to sperm quality.
• WeNatal was created to support both partners in fertility.
• Their prenatal supplements are designed for bioavailability and effectiveness.
• They focus on simplifying the supplement process for women.
• Education is key in supporting couples on their fertility journey.
• Their blog offers valuable resources for those trying to conceive.
• They emphasize the importance of quality ingredients in supplements.

  Guest Bio:   Ronit Menashe and Vida Delrahim are the founders of WeNatal, a prenatal supplement company that is transforming the fertility space with the first prenatal supplement optimized for her AND him. WeNatal’s mission to change the narrative surrounding fertility and reproductive health is personal; after suffering miscarriages a week apart, Ronit and Vida were given little direction on what to do differently. More importantly, the health of Ronit and Vida’s partners(including the health of their sperm) was completely missing from their fertility dialogue with their doctors… something had to change. That is why WeNatal was born, to shift the fertility journey from "me" to "we.” WeNatal is revolutionizing the prenatal space and backed by industry leading Functional Medicine doctors, nutritionists, and fertility experts, including Dr. Mark Hyman and Kelly LeVeque. With 24 key clean, bioavailable nutrients, WeNatal steps up where other supplements fall short for all things preconception to postpartum for both parents and baby.     Websites/Links:    Free Preconception Guide:  WeNatal.com/guide     https://www.instagram.com/we_natal/?hl=en   For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   Michelle (00:00) Welcome to the podcast for Neat and Vita.   Vida Delrahim (00:02) Thanks for having us. We're so excited to be here.   Ronit Menashe (00:04) So happy to be here.   Michelle (00:06) Yes, so happy to have you guys. And I know that you guys have such an interesting story, first of all, on how you met and also the experience you guys went through together. So without giving anything away, I would love for you guys to share your stories, your personal stories and how that eventually led you to doing your passion project.   Vida Delrahim (00:26) Yeah, I'd love to. So it's fun story because we never envisioned to be in the supplement space. And in fact, Ronit and I met in our corporate careers at Nike close to 18 years ago and became best friends and really just kind of embarked in life together. Ronit went on to work in the functional medicine space and we should all thank our lucky stars that she did because it kind of completely changed our trajectory. So.   I had a miscarriage right when she was having her first daughter. And of course the answers we were given were very dismissive. They were typically like very common, keep trying, you're lucky you even got pregnant, could be the stress, could be a slew of things. They just kind of shove you along as part of the process. And I didn't know any better, of course, having my first and Ronit was actually in the functional med space, immersed and kind of taught me things like, have you checked your thyroid? Have you done this? Have you done that?   Lo and behold, I had Hashimoto's, I didn't even know about it. Just that simple act of fixing my thyroid with medication and visiting an endocrinologist allowed me to have a healthy baby girl. And then fast forward to 2020, I had another miscarriage. And a week after, Ronit had one. And I think this was, it happened a week apart. This was a little bit shocking because...   Like I kind of just accepted that this stuff happens, but Ronit working alongside Dr. Mark Hyman, who's very amazing functional practitioner, she was all about the root cause. She was all about the answers and the questions and the answers she was given was very similar, but she wasn't willing to accept that. Like, you know, there's nothing you can do as an answer.   Michelle (02:02) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (02:03) And I think for me, Michelle, the reason why it was so shocking was because I was a huge fan of functional medicine for so many years and I already was doing all of the things, or at least I thought I was. I had already cleaned out my house from plastics. I had already, you know, was eating organic food. I was focusing on movement. I was taking pretty good supplements.   or at least what I thought was good supplements. And I was shocked. And when I started to dive into the root of what was happening, because it didn't make sense to me that my doctor said, there is nothing you could do to improve your fertility, literally. It is just common, just keep trying. I thought that makes zero sense. And I'm gonna learn about how to improve my egg quality. I thought.   Michelle (02:48) Mm hmm.   Ronit Menashe (03:01) It was a net quality issue. was 41 at the time. That's what made sense to me. And my biggest aha was when I learned that 50 % of miscarriages happen because of sperm quality. And that was when I called Vida and I said, Vida, did you know that men contribute to 50 % of miscarriages and that 50 that   that sperm quality is easily improved using antioxidants like CoQ10 and AC. In fact, studies after studies show that when men take an antioxidant blend in high dose bioavailable forms, they can quadruple their chances of their partner getting pregnant and having a live birth. So,   That was our big light bulb moment when we thought like, my God, we need to create a prenatal for men. And we need to scream this from the rooftops that men have a huge role, huge role in improving fertility outcomes and pregnancy outcomes for their families. And that was where we started our journey.   Michelle (04:13) It is so important. can't even like tell you. It's so crazy because I have people that go to their doctors and so many times they don't even check the men. And also the DNA fragmentation, which is a whole other thing. Cause like, yeah, you can have perfect sperm numbers and motility and morphology. But if the DNA is off and that can get really impacted by the antioxidants,   then that can make a big difference on so many things on IVF, is so expensive too. So I love that you guys bring this up. It's so important.   Vida Delrahim (04:50) It's so important and how is it that we're so far in like medicine and women's rights, but like yet the burden of fertility still solely is falling so Ronit and I knew that was like the beginning of our mission that one, women and men deserve better products because we can talk about how   once we uncover the fertility and the supplement space, we learn so much, but also that they both need to be leveling up their health. They both need to be part of the conversation. And WeNatal was really born to really level up both partners and bring them together during this journey and give them the best tools and the best nutrition to level up their health in this crucial timeframe, which is preconception.   Michelle (05:32) For sure, and we're neat. So you had a different background and you changed your career like me.   Ronit Menashe (05:38) Well, my background was in marketing. That's where Vida and I met at Nike. And I fell in love with functional medicine when I got into CrossFit and I learned about the Paleo diet. And then I learned about functional medicine. And then I started to do, you know, become, I became a functional medicine patient myself. And this was a year before, you know,   we need years before we natal. And I just fell in love with this idea of medicine of the root cause. And once you learn it, you can't unlearn it. Like that's how you think about everything. It's like, even when, you know, your child has a tantrum nowadays, you're like, okay, like it's not them. Is it there? Is it that they're tired? Is it that they're hungry? Is it that they had sugar? You know, you, you   Michelle (06:27) you   Bye.   Ronit Menashe (06:35) learn about root cause medicine, you realize it, you know, that just everything is connected. And so for me, that was, you know, a big change in my career because I was focused more on marketing. And then I wanted to get into the functional medicine space. I took Chris Kresser's adapt course and, know, kind of started to learn about becoming a practitioner, but   it ended up serving me very well when I met Dr. Mark Hyman and I worked on his private practice and worked on his private practice more from like operations. And then I worked with him on his book launches. So still kind of like in the business side of things, marketing side of things, but more focused on this space that I love so much, which is functional integrative medicine.   Michelle (07:26) That's amazing. so I'm sure with that background, and also realizing that there is a need for this. It really inspired you to do, to have this supplement company.   Ronit Menashe (07:38) 100%. We spoke to Dr. Hyman when we first came up with the idea and he said, I always treat the man when a woman comes to me with infertility. And so what we wanted to do with WeNatal is be able to give everybody access to this kind of functional medicine approach, which essentially means optimizing male fertility and female fertility before trying to conceive.   what it looks like is nourishing your body and kind of, creating that optimal soil for conception. And, know, we always say when you improve your health, you're improving your fertility. And when you're improving your fertility, you're improving your health. And we hear from so many customers that, you know, let's say men, for instance, they're taking we natal for him. And all of a sudden they have a libido all of a sudden.   They have energy, they focus, their hair is growing. So that's kind of the side effects and the byproduct of working on improving your sperm and egg quality is you actually also feel good when you're nourished. You feel good when you're depleted from nutrients. Of course, you're going to be tired. And so many people just accept   this notion of like, I'm getting older so I should be tired or I'm getting older I should be losing my hair or I'm postpartum I should be   Michelle (09:06) Like it's normal,   normal versus common.   Vida Delrahim (09:08) Exactly.   Exactly.   Ronit Menashe (09:09) Exactly. Exactly. So   yes, these things are common, but they're not normal. And Vida and I just, you know, had this like life circumstance where we realized like it's our mission now to educate people on the importance of preconception, that there is so much you could do as a couple. He needs to be part of the equation. And when we started WeNatal, we didn't know if the men would be into it, but we're happy to say   Our we-natal men are amazing. We have so many incredible couples that are doing this together from day one. And we're always saying like, they're gonna be the best dads. If they are participating in fertility so early, they are amazing parents already.   Michelle (09:56) So yeah, for sure. And talk about like the different ingredients or the and what they do when it comes to both egg and sperm quality. And you can take your time on this   Ronit Menashe (10:08) for sure. Well, you know, here's the thing. We didn't think that the world needed another prenatal for women because there are so many prenatals out there, thousands. know, and. But when we started to dive into it and particularly for us, we were taking these packets made out of plastic that had seven pills in them.   And we just thought women deserve better. Why do they need to take seven pills? Why do they need to throw out plastic every day? Like we care about creating these healthy little humans. What about the environment? there was that. Then when we looked at the lower level prenatals, we noticed that a lot of the ingredients were not bioavailable. So what does that mean?   not everybody could utilize the nutrients that are part of those prenatals. So let's use folic acid as an example. When a prenatal has folic acid, that is the synthetic form of folate, which a lot of prenatals on the market, like if you go to a CVS or a Target, they have folic acid. And if somebody has the MTHFR genetic mutation,   They cannot utilize that folic acid. And so that nutrient is actually harmful to them. So for we natal, all of our nutrients are bioavailable. They're all in the methylated B form. like methyl folate or 5MTHF. So first of all, we have bioavailability. Second of all, comprehensiveness.   A lot of the prenatals on the market have 12-ish ingredients. We have 24 nutrients and we wouldn't leave one nutrient out. And it's very important because each and every one of our nutrients that are in our prenatal serves a very specific purpose for mom and baby and health of the pregnancy. And then you have...   dosages because even if something has 24 key ingredients like we natal the Dosages make a big difference. So using choline as an example choline We natal has 400 milligrams choline is crucial for baby brain development and the research shows that a pregnant woman needs 450 milligrams and a lactating woman needs 550 milligrams the average   Choline intake in the American diet, which you get choline from egg yolks is around 180. So we natal has 400 to be able to support that postpartum mom and obviously the pregnant mom, but there are prenatals on the market that have 50 milligrams. Now this is crucial for cognition of baby, brain mass, baby brain development.   Michelle (13:15) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (13:22) And so we were like, we have to create a prenatal for us because what we were doing is we were taking that base prenatal. We were adding choline. We were adding vitamin D. We were adding folate. We were adding iron. And most women are not going to do that. Most women are not going to, you know, take 10 plus pills a day and spend all that money on   all of these nutrients. We were doing it because we were immersed in the research and we saw how important these nutrients were. But we wanted to create a product that made it simple and easy for women and men to take their prenatal. Our packaging is beautiful and the reason is, well, first of all, we love nice things, but also,   Michelle (14:15) Thank   Ronit Menashe (14:16) We   wanted it to be part of people's home, people's life. So they're not hiding their prenatals in their, you know, cabinets that they can take it every day because consistency, like everything in health and wellness, consistency is what's going to make the biggest difference. And so that's kind of from a high level. And then, you know, you asked me what's in the prenatal and we can geek out a little bit more on the nutrients and what they do.   But what's not in the prenatal is also a big, big key because a lot of supplements on the market have a ton of additional ingredients and those ingredients are harmful for fertility and just overall health. And so it's important. We always say it's important to look at the nutrition facts.   but also look underneath the nutrition facts like what else is in there that shouldn't be in there and we natal doesn't have any additional fillers. And we do that because we manufacture in smaller dosages. We're not manufacturing in mass. Our shelf life is only two years where it's not like some prenatals that their shelf life is forever.   which, you know, for us, we're fine. We're doing things in smaller batches. And, you know, from a business perspective, it complicates things, definitely complicates Vida's life because she's on the operation side of things, but we're doing the right thing for the consumer. And that's what matters to us the most.   Michelle (15:43) .   So I know that like for my patients, for example, I'll give them certain supplements, preparing, including a prenatal, but then I'll also add more supplements that I don't necessarily have them continue taking after they're pregnant. So some that are more like to beef up the quality of the eggs. Do you guys have different ones or is it like certain? Yeah.   Vida Delrahim (16:13) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (16:16) Yes.   Yes. So we have our foundation support, which is the prenatal for him and for her. That is the multivitamin for men slash sperm support. And for women, it's the prenatal that has key nutrients for before, during, and after. But for those who want to beef up their egg quality, and we could talk about the scenarios in which you would need this product or not.   Michelle (16:35) Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (16:44) We have a product that we launched this year called Egg Quality Plus, and it's five nutrients in one. So it's the five nutrients that we were taking after our miscarriage, CoQ10, NAC, PQQ, alpha lipoic acid, and L-carnitine. And what these nutrients do is they help improve egg quality. How do they do it?   Michelle (16:49) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Ronit Menashe (17:12) These nutrients are very specific nutrients that help improve mitochondria. We know that the three months before you ovulate, the egg that you ovulate with is going through all these processes that are very complex that require very strong mitochondria. So your mitochondria is like the battery of the cell. And if the battery is low,   that process is not gonna go well and you're gonna end up with chromosomal abnormalities. So it's important to quote unquote charge the battery before you start trying so that when that process does take place, it happens with no or limited errors, if that makes sense. So we recommend for women who are either older or maybe had recurrent miscarriages or   Michelle (18:00) Yeah.   Ronit Menashe (18:09) Just wanna know that they did everything possible in the preconception timeframe to take Egg Quality Plus with our prenatal, which the prenatal also includes nutrients that help improve egg quality like folate, vitamin D. By the way, 4,000 I use a vitamin D. I don't think any prenatals on the market have that. And then, you you talked about in the postpartum phase, like for us,   what was very important to include in our prenatal is iron because in the postpartum phase and in third trimester, a lot of women are very depleted from nutrients because you require more iron in that timeframe and just to help with postpartum recovery and all of those things. So our prenatal has iron in it as well.   So what we wanted to do with the prenatal is be able to simplify people's lives and give them a tool that they can use before, during, and after. Then if somebody wants that extra boost, they could get that Egg Quality Plus B4. And that's kind of the philosophy. We wanna make it simple and easy. And the other thing that I didn't mention is our prenatal dosage is three pills a day. And so...   Michelle (19:13) Mm-hmm.   Mm-hmm.   Mm   Ronit Menashe (19:31) We just don't think it's realistic to ask women to take eight pills plus per day for their prenatal, especially in their first trimester when they're nauseous and they're throwing up and they can barely stomach any food.   Michelle (19:41) Yep. yeah, for sure.   And then as far as the iron, I know there's many different forms of iron and some can cause constipation. So I just wanted to ask about that.   Ronit Menashe (19:53) Yeah, so the forms, we didn't get into the like real geekiness of our forms, but every single one of our forms are the best form that we can find. And we use a patented iron that doesn't constipate called ferrochell. And we do the same with some of our other ingredients, like our choline is microencapsulated. Every, our selenium is this like super special selenium.   Every single one of our nutrients is sourced from the best of the best because we feel like women deserve the best. This is such an important time in people's lives and the nutrients really make a big difference and can make or break your journey.   Michelle (20:43) I love that. I love that you're really putting attention to detail because it does make such a difference. And the thing is the thing, the reason why I'm asking also is just from my perspective as a practitioner, I'm always looking for supplements that can address so many issues. And what I find myself doing is getting a bunch of different things and then having to give so many different supplements and so many different bottles. So I love the fact that you guys have   this really like thought out. It's really nice.   Vida Delrahim (21:16) Well, that's essentially what   Ronit was doing with me when we were on this journey together. She was AKA my doctor. And she's like, look at all the research shows that you need add iron you add this and so it ended up being I don't know Roni at some point I swear it was like 1215 maybe capsules because of all the additions some of it was drops. I could not keep up Ronit was a champion at taking supplements she could like down 10 at a time. I was nursing a couple meal   Michelle (21:41) Yeah.   Vida Delrahim (21:43) And of course   I wouldn't even comply. And so that was when also the idea of we need to like the ease and simplicity is so important. We're all busy, but we want to know that we're giving our body the best nutrients. I had guilt about not taking enough because I literally just couldn't down pills as quickly as some people can. And so the fact that we're able to get these 24 quality bioavailable ingredients into three capsules took us years. And we're so proud of that because it is the nutrient density of six to eight capsules in three.   And so that's what we were doing. We realized it wasn't feasible for everybody. Not everyone is at a road who can just chug them along. We realized this world had to be reinvented.   Michelle (22:23) yeah, for sure. Well, this is great. mean, lots of great information. I'm looking at your website right now, actually. Yeah, you guys definitely, it looks like you guys did a lot of research and you also have a blog, which is great. Cause I think it's so important to educate people that are on this journey.   Ronit Menashe (22:44) Well, that is exactly what we didn't have. It's so hard to reliable information that you can trust. And so we have an amazing blog and we put out so much great content on literally any topic under the sun from what to do if you just got diagnosed with gestational diabetes to, okay, how do you create a clean nursery to you know how to you know the fertility crisis you know we span everything on the blog and we share about it in our newsletter and we have an amazing guide with nine preconception tips if your listeners want to go to we natal.com slash guide they get our free couples guide and it's a really great starting point and a lot of the things that couples could do to support their fertility is free it doesn't have to be like   complicated or fancy. It's a lot of like free things. And so that guide is a really great resource.   Michelle (23:50) Awesome. Well, this is great information and you guys, this isn't a sponsored episode. It really is me wanting to find out more because there are amazing new things out there. And I think that it's important to hear all the different perspectives and really get it from the founders. So thank you guys so much for coming on and for people who are looking to learn more, how can they find you guys?   Ronit Menashe (24:19) They on we natal.com our website on social. We're very active and that's where we also share a lot of the new research at we underscore natal. And also we're happy to hear from your listeners. Anybody has questions or needs help or needs us to point them in the direction of some something or some article they can DM us at our, on our Instagram where we're most active.   Michelle (24:49) Awesome. Well, I loved this conversation and I loved all the details and the nerdy aspects of it because for me, I really liked the breakdown. think one thing that I find is that you want to find the smartest audience. It's usually a fertility audience. They're so smart because they do so much research on their own health and they really look into much more than the doctors give them. so,   So I know that they like to find out really detailed information. So thank you for that. And thank you so much for coming on today.   Vida Delrahim (25:26) Thanks for having us. We're excited to support you and your community.   Michelle (25:31) Awesome.   Ronit Menashe (25:31) Thanks, Michelle.

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into the nuances of positive thinking and why it can sometimes be counterproductive during the fertility journey. While positive thinking is often praised, it can sometimes invalidate our true feelings, create shame, and hinder emotional flow. I share insights from both personal experiences and the principles of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), emphasizing the importance of emotional authenticity and achieving a state of neutrality to support fertility and overall well-being.   Takeaways:  

• Toxic positivity can be harmful. It may invalidate genuine emotions and create shame or pressure to feel a certain way.
• Neutrality is key. Balancing yin and yang allows for emotional flow and supports both mental and physical well-being.
• Emotions are energy. Observing and processing emotions without judgment promotes natural healing and balance.
• Practical tools: Meditation, mindfulness, journaling, and therapies like acupuncture can help create flow and harmony.
• Limit external pressures. Set boundaries and curate your environment to avoid triggers, allowing for peace and authenticity.

  For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com   To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility   The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/   Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility   Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/     Transcript:   [00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I am going to be talking about why positive thinking isn't always so positive, especially when it comes to the fertility journey and why it could sometimes be a trap. So stay tuned. So today I want to discuss the hidden pitfalls of positive thinking when it comes to your fertility journey and why it is not always as positive as we intend for it to be. So there's a good reason why positive thinking or the movement of positive thinking has made such a huge impact on a lot of people. And you'll hear a lot about it. When it comes to so many different things when it comes to work when it comes to your body when it comes to like so many things and The reason why I think it is so impactful is the aspect of it of really guiding our minds [00:01:00] to the possibilities of things happening and There's definitely benefits to that However, it could be a trap. It could be a trap to think positively and I'll explain why, especially when it comes to the fertility journey. Sometimes it can actually make things worse.   So, you may have heard of the term or the phrase, Toxic positivity. So yes, anything can become and turn into something unhealthy, even positivity.   You may have been in a situation where you were trying to explain how you were feeling to somebody you really care about, and you just needed to get A load of emotions off your chest. And as soon as you do that, the person says, well, you know, maybe it's this, maybe it's that, or trying to sort of shift the way you're looking at things. And then you find yourself feeling worse.   The likelihood of why you were feeling [00:02:00] so bad is because in so doing in, you know, the good intention of your friend or your family member to try to get you to just stay positive or, another example is going to a dinner party and being told, Oh, you know, people sometimes at the last minute when they start to feel relaxed, that's when they start to get pregnant. So you get stories like that over and over again, but the reason why it could be so detrimental and it can actually have an impact that's the opposite is because you start to feel invalidated for your feelings and you're not feeling like whatever it is that you're experiencing is valid and you shouldn't feel that way. And there's almost an element that sometimes can turn into a level of shame you. In feeling that you can't just feel how you're feeling without, I guess, a positive judgment. So positivity, just like [00:03:00]negativity, it could be a judgment on something. And it can also get you into a state where you don't really feel authentic. You're feeling like you have to be a certain way and that doesn't come from where you're truly feeling. It doesn't really align with how your current state is. So when you're constantly going against yourself, then it can cause you to feel worse.   So ultimately the reason why you would even implement anything as positive thinking is to feel better.   So when you're trying to implement something that you don't really feel aligned with, then it can add an extra added pressure to your already pressure filled journey trying to conceive. So then on top of all of that, you feel shame or bad or guilt for feeling negative emotions. And these negative emotions are actually very normal emotions to have. And sometimes you start to beat yourself up because you think to [00:04:00] yourself, well, is it because I wasn't being positive that I'm not conceiving? Am I not being positive enough to make my fertility work? And then it gets you onto this whole other rabbit hole of thoughts and ideas that again, only make you feel worse.   So let's just look into why those things make you feel worse. It's because you are feeling your truth of emotions and regardless of it feeling, I guess, negative, but again, that's a judgment. By denying that, by saying, by putting that judgment of this is a negative feeling and I have to feel much better, then there's pressure and there's also resistance that's being created.   In regards to what is for you in this present moment. So rather than putting judgments on anything that you're going through emotionally, and rather than looking at emotions as inherently good or bad, allow them just to be what they[00:05:00] are. And this is one of the things that is so powerful about a mindfulness practice is that we're not trying to suppress anything.   You're just allowing things to be. And so emotions can be like energy. And this is one of the reasons why Chinese medicine, the way we focus on the body and the thing that actually heals the body. Is creating a sense of flow. So when you're taking something and you're either constricting and you're not really aligning, you're resisting or you're attaching too much, then you're not allowing a state of flow and you're not allowing this state of yin and yang balance. So suppressing or denying emotions positivity can actually create an emotional backlog and it can lead to increased stress and even physical symptoms. that the fertility journey can often come with grief. It can come with anger. It can come with frustration. It can come with fear.   All these feelings deserve to be acknowledged and processed just like anything in [00:06:00] life. So if those things are suppressed, that is not true positivity. On the other hand, allowing yourself to feel the feelings and go through the motions and allowing them to move as their normal progression is naturally that can allow a spontaneous feeling of joy from that release of emotions. So there's a difference between trying to force joy and trying to force positivity than to be in a natural spontaneous state of joy. by allowing yourself that space and that freedom of allowing yourself to really just truly freely express yourself.   Now that doesn't mean to express yourself by hurting other people. You know, there's, everything's in a balance. So you use your expression in a way that doesn't really harm other people or doesn't impact other [00:07:00] people other than allowing them to be part of your journey or being there as a support but really processing emotions in a healthy way. Sometimes this means going and seeking therapy from a qualified professional and ideally somebody who really understands your specific needs. So it could be , somebody who specializes in fertility, wellness, so it's important to have somebody who's really trained in that specific specialty.   And I also want to note that processing emotions is very distinct from staying in those emotions. So there's a difference between allowing emotions to move through because naturally if you really allow emotions to go freely they're gonna come and go and they're not gonna stay stagnant. When you find yourself almost persisting in those states of emotions all the time, that too is not a natural state.   [00:08:00] That's actually forcing yourself to stay in it because either we feel shame or we feel we deserve to feel that way or that we don't personally allow ourselves to move through it until we get that object of desire, in the case of fertility, it's conceiving. And what happens is even if you do get conception and conception occurs, you'll realize that through that stagnation of emotions, that once you do get what you desire, those emotions don't necessarily go away.   And that actually takes a lot of people by surprise as well.   Processing emotions definitely requires us to be accepting of our state, accepting of what is in this moment, accepting how we feel in this moment, and really truly like giving ourselves that self compassion and that full acceptance of us. in our state, how we are in this moment, and when we do so, we're allowing the process to happen and unfold as it needs to naturally.   But it is [00:09:00] important to either get proper support if need be, depending on how extreme those emotions are and depending on if we don't feel like we can get through it by ourselves. And it's very important not to have shame around that and to be able to ask for help when we need it.   So taking this to ancient Chinese philosophy and really the Tao, which is what Chinese medicine is based on. If you haven't heard the earlier podcasts that I've had where I talk about the Dow and I talk about how it really translates as the way and allows life to flow best in the state of balance and not extremes.   So those are things that are really important. So being too positive is actually considered an extreme. Having something where it's not natural for us and we're kind of forcing a smile is considered an extreme. It's not considered a state of balance If you look at it from a [00:10:00] Chinese medicine perspective and ultimately it's really realizing that there is no good or bad when it comes to emotions and there is no good or bad when it comes to states. The best possible harmonious state that you can be in is allowing both the yin and the yang, which are complete opposing forces to harmonize and work to balance each other together in complementaries.   And really understanding that yin represents stillness, receptivity, coolness, it's more inert, and yang represents . activity, action and heat. And so many times through the fertility journey, we can be very proactive. We want to do a lot and sometimes we're feeling the feelings that we have. We can go into a yin state and allow ourselves to process that and to be in stillness and to be giving ourselves that space to process whatever it is [00:11:00] that we need to go through, knowing that this harmony, there is no good and bad, and that really ultimately it's about listening to our hearts and allowing what is in its full entirety with no judgment.   So you may be asking, where do I go from now? I don't want to feel horrible. I don't want to feel like this difficulty. And I want to think positively because thinking positive can help. Improve physicality and it can help improve a lot of things. And yes, there is truth to that.   Absolutely. But it's important to keep it in balance. And ultimately what a lot of the ancients say in a lot of ancient traditions is really neutrality is key to flow. So neutrality  is the ultimate state. of yin and yang balance. So when you have both opposites harmonizing, you create a neutrality and that neutrality, that homeostasis is the key to flow [00:12:00] and that allows the flow of your divine intelligence in your mind and your body. And when I say your mind, those are the things that really connects you with your intuition, where it allows you to have the clarity of mind so that you are able to create consciously.   And yes, absolutely. You can create consciously in your life. However, if you're creating from a state of stress, then that will taint and underlying the intention of where you're coming from in your creation. So yeah, 100 percent we are creators and 100% thinking in a way that is positive can really impact your journey.   So I'm not negating that at all. However, doing so from a place of neutrality so that there's no major attachment and no major resistance to what you don't want or attachment to what you do want. Having a state of neutrality where you're coasting through that, first of [00:13:00] all, is a possibility on the fertility journey. I work with so many people and it is a possibility in the fertility journey. I think one of the biggest misconceptions is that is not possible for me until I have the baby. And that is a misconception because I've seen the possibility of it and I can guarantee you, you can get to the state of neutrality through that.   And by doing so, you're actually creating more space in your life in doing so. Now that doesn't mean negating how you feel. And part of getting to that state of neutrality is allowing yourself that space to be in your own authenticity, whatever that may look like at the moment.   So I want to make a couple of really key points here is that neutrality, when I talk about neutrality, neutrality is not indifference. So it's not meaning I don't care about anything. I'm just going to be completely numb because that's actually going all [00:14:00] the way to the yin and then trying to be too . positive could be trying too hard and going all the way to the young. It's actually going in the middle. So neutrality is not being indifferent. Neutrality doesn't mean you're not doing anything. It's creating a state of equilibrium and flow where your emotions can rise and fall without pulling you out of alignment.   And you can imagine it like a river flowing smoothly. So knowing that obstacles come and go, but the water continues to flow in So when it comes to Chinese medicine perspective, flow is bi directional. It impacts the mind and it impacts the body. If you create flow in the body through Chinese medicine, through herbs and acupuncture, And even Qigong or yoga. So this isn't just for acupuncture. You can create flow in the body many different ways.   It will create and reflect as flow in your mind. And if you [00:15:00] create flow in your mind by doing things like meditation and calming your mind, or even chanting or humming, which I guess is also physical, then that will create coherence and flow in your body. So ultimately, when you have flow and coherence in your body and your mind, it will impact your fertility.   And that is how I approach my own treatments towards my patients. And also the course that I do when I work with people online, it's all about creating this flow because when you do get this flow, That is the optimal state for your body to conceive. So for example, emotions are very much linked to our organs and you may have heard me talk about this before, but like things like worry or thinking too much can actually impact your digestive system and having, , An imbalanced digestive system will actually cause you to worry more. So sometimes[00:16:00] you'll feel certain emotions that are very much linked to the state of your organs.   And anger can disrupt the liver chi or stress can disrupt the liver chi by constricting because the liver is in charge of creating free flow in your body. And so the liver is basically your best friend when it comes to flow, if it is in the right balance. Similarly, if the liver is not optimal, it is going to feel more disrupted when we have other things going on in our life. So it can cause us to feel more stress. So all of these things are bidirectional and fear , is tied to the kidneys, which are really incredibly important when it comes to reproductive vitality and health.   So one of the best things that I can mention is if you look at emotions as you would energy, basically, where you look at it from an objective perspective, and a sense of neutrality where you're looking at the emotions as energy or even getting into your body state [00:17:00] when you're going through the emotions and saying, where do I feel this?   When you start to look at your body and not think about the ideas and the stories that are connected to the emotions, you'll be able to create a sense of separation because you're observing when you're observing, you can separate.   So a couple of practical steps to creating this neutrality is through your acknowledgement of how you're feeling. And you could do this, like I said, through your body or even through journaling. So you can write down certain things, how it makes you feel, and also talking to a friend or a family member or a therapist, depending on how much you feel you need and what you're able to process alone.   Another technique that can help us really become more neutral is things like meditation, mindfulness, even yoga, , Tai Chi, moving your body, able to really feel and process your emotions somatically through your [00:18:00] body can help. And then meditations really through your mind, but observing of your body.   You can do that, or you can think about your observation of your emotions or your thoughts and watching them, observing them so that you're over time training your mind to separate from that and not get pulled in to those emotions and not get pulled into the ideas or the judgments of them. And you're just able to see it from an objective perspective.   Another thing I am personally biased to is acupuncture and herbal support, and those things can definitely help through the physical body and through certain points to, to, balance the nervous system and also create a sense of peace. So that can help a lot with processing emotions. And that is one of the ways you can actually get extra help if you feel like sometimes those emotions can be very overwhelming.[00:19:00] Acupuncture helps tremendously in allowing yourself to process those emotions. I have a lot of people release a lot of emotions while they're doing acupuncture and it could be very, very supportive. There's a lot of. herbal formulas that can support your mind. They can support even the sleep, which in during the sleep, you're actually processing a lot as well.   So sleep is really important in processing emotions and processing  stress as well.   And then also adopting a both and mindset, which gives you permission to feel both hope and frustration, joy and sadness at the same time, allowing yourself to be okay with having opposing emotions for the same exact thing. So then it gives you the space to also feel joy at times and also feel sadness and not giving yourself all or nothing in this whole process.   And I think that doing that takes out [00:20:00] the extra added pressure or the guilt that you feel when you do have moments of joy after grieving a loss, really just allowing yourself the space and the freedom to just be however you want to show up. And lastly, limit external pressures. If you find that people are adding more pressure or giving you that toxic positivity, then yes, feel free to set those boundaries. Sometimes it can be just not even mentioning specifics, but just really setting the boundaries and creating space between you and certain people that you feel are adding too much pressure to you.   You could also limit external pressures by creating almost a detox of certain social media accounts that tend to bring up feelings of pressure to be extra positive because it seems like those people have that type of life and that ultimately many times is not really what it [00:21:00] seems to be.   It's something that we perceive and make meaning of. So if those things do trigger a lot of those pressures, I definitely suggest limiting that as well.   And also taking walks in nature, sometimes nature reminds us how things can be opposing, but perfectly beautiful in their imperfections. So sometimes just walking and observing and listening to the sounds of the leaves blowing in the trees and feeling the wind on your face and just taking yourself into a moment of presence that will ultimately lead you to some sense of neutrality where you almost forget where you are and you can just be perfectly present.   By doing so, you're giving yourself a little space and a break from everything, the good, the bad, or the judgments of those, and you're allowing yourself to be fully present. And by observing things [00:22:00]around you, you can actually get yourself to that state of neutrality. I highly recommend doing that. It can really impact your consciousness. And at least at the very least, it can give you a little mental break.   Remember that balance is key. And ultimately, I mean, that is how Chinese medicine works. That's how I get the body to be in a state of healing. And I say state of healing because ultimately it's the body that heals itself. We're just creating a state of neutrality and a state of balance. So that is ultimately what feels the most authentic to us because it's innate.   So I hope that you enjoyed this episode and feel free to reach out to me with any questions or ideas or thoughts for new future episodes on my Instagram. You can DM me there and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility. And if you guys enjoy this podcast, then please subscribe.   And it makes me really happy to [00:23:00] get reviews on Apple music. I read all of them. So thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.