Did you know American music legend Nile Rodgers is helping the Trust plant and protect woodland in Northern Ireland? Alongside generous donations to Faughan Valley Woodlands from the We Are Family Foundation (WAFF), Nile has got stuck in with planting on site. Nile and the foundation he co-founded with his partner, Nancy Hunt, are working with us to reconnect fragmented native woods in a region where less than 1% of ancient woodland remains. We caught up with the multiple Grammy Award winner on his latest visit to find out why. We also hear from David Saddington, trustee of both WAFF and the Trust, on why empowering young people to take direct action is key to this work, and we chat to some of those volunteering at this special event. Please note this episode contains references to drugs.

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Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Nile: But it just made me feel so good. It was so real, it was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin, I was doing music *laughs*.

Nile: So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, 'well, I wish I could play like him, I wish I could do that'. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts.

Nile: We actually had them locked out the studio because we still hadn't finished the lyrics to We Are Family.

Nile: Trees do, all plants, but trees, you know, especially, do so much for life. Let's not just talk about the overall environment, life, all life forms that exist.

Adam: For 40 years, if you've been on a dance floor, you'll have been dancing to the music of one of our guests today. He co-founded Chic, produced and collaborated with David Bowie, Madonna, Richard Jackson, and well, to be honest, too many others to mention. But to give you an idea of the sort of musical success he's had, I can say that he has produced and performed on records which have sold more than 750 million albums and 100 million singles. Born to teenage parents in an environment where drug use was very much part of his every day, he has come from that background with an attitude to life which is as upbeat and as positive as his music. And together with his partner, Nancy Hunt, they have established the We Are Family Foundation, focused on empowering young people around the world. Together, they're in Northern Ireland, in Derry, to support and protect and indeed restore woodland in this country, and indeed Nile is on the Woodland Walks sofa and joined by one of the trustees of the We Are Family Foundation and indeed the Woodland Trust, David. So we'll come to David in a moment. Why don't we start now where it all started with the music? Reading about you and listening to stuff you've done, my impression is you're the most positive person I've read about and that surprises me because of the disjointed background you grew up in. So two questions. Do you think that's a fair description and if so, why?

Nile: So the... the interesting thing about my childhood was that though my parents were heroin addicts, they were extremely loving and they believed in me so much so that, believe it or not, I was never, ever told what to do. They knew that I instinctively would figure it out. Or I was just one of those nerdy, nice kids that they knew would never get into trouble. I mean, I have never stolen anything. I've never, I bullied one kid once and the reason why is because everybody bullied me because I was a nerd. And when I bullied this kid, he started crying and I started crying. He's probably forgotten that incident. I will never forget it. It'll bother me my entire life. I could not believe that I did that. So my childhood was actually on one level very happy, but at the exact same time, and I don't know how these two situations could have coexisted, except only now forensically, but it was super happy, but then I actually called my childhood a fear-based childhood. I was afraid of things, so I did things to make me unafraid or happy. And music was that thing. But it just made me feel so good. It was so real. It was almost like a drug. So my parents were doing heroin. I was doing music *laughs*.

Adam: I mean, it's weird you describe yourself as a nerd. You're the least nerdy-looking nerd I've ever come across, but fair enough.

Nile: Oh God, test me.

Adam: Oh really, okay, we'll do a nerd off *both laugh*. Fair, fair enough. But that positivity, I mean, you talk about being nice, but what I think is striking about your music, and perhaps problematic for some of it, is that it's relentlessly positive. And I think sometimes it's seen as sort of very surface level because of that and yet you talk about the deeper meaning behind the music, which I think some fans of yours perhaps don't see, or that's not what they're getting from it.

Nile: But that's okay, though.

Adam: That's fine.

Nile: It's okay. Yeah, you're so correct. I mean, I'll try and quickly just tell you this story. So when I said I was a nerd, believe me, I studied music on a level that was so intense, that was ridiculous. So I thought it was my job to prove to my tutors and various teachers how smart I was, how well I learned the rules and the discipline of music. I wrote symphonic music when I was a child, I wasn't even 10 years old yet. And I remember I was going to one of my tutors. I was around 22 years old and I was a very serious jazz student. And I went into him one day with a very sourpuss attitude and look, and that was not me. He just was like, no, you're always so happy and you're always so upbeat. What's wrong with you today? And I said, well, look at this ******** pop music that I have to play tonight. Now, maybe I thought it was sort of ******** but maybe I was just trying to score brownie points with him because I always thought being a great musician was being the smartest guy or the greatest virtuoso in the room. So what happened was my teacher, I showed him the list of songs that I was playing that night. And I said, look at what I have to start my set with. This song by The Archies called Sugar, Sugar. He said, yeah, but now what's wrong? Why are you so sad? And I said, because I got to play Sugar, Sugar. You know, I want to play straight ahead jazz. He was like, that's okay that you want to play straight ahead jazz, that's what I love. But why is it bothering you to play Sugar, Sugar? And I said, because it goes, *sings* Honey, do, do, do, do, do, do, oh sugar, sugar, do, do, do, do, do, do, you are my candy girl, and you got me wanting you. And he said, Nile, that's a great composition. I went, you call Sugar, Sugar a great composition? He said, absolutely. He said, what do you think about it? He says, and I went, well, it sucks. It's some ******** bubblegum pop music. And he went, now, do you know that Sugar Sugar's been number one for about three weeks? And I said, yeah, but what does that got to do with anything? And he went, so those millions of people around the world, they're wrong, but you, Nile Rodgers, are right? And all of a sudden I felt, uh-oh, *laughs* something weird's getting ready to happen. So he held me behind my head and he pulled my face close to him and he said, Nile, let me explain something to you. Every record in the top 20 is a great composition. And so remember, we're going back now 50 years. I'm 73 years old, so we're going back a long time. And I say, every record in the top 20 is a great composition? He says, yes. I said, why would you say something so absurd? He says, Nile, because it speaks to the souls of a million strangers. And I literally started crying at that moment because in one spark, in a nanosecond, he explained to me what an artist was. So I always thought that an artist was the guy trying to be the smartest person in the room, that everybody said, well, I wish I could play like him. I wish I could do that. No, it was the person who touched people's hearts. It was the person who made people feel something, be it happiness, be it sadness or whatever. But a lot of my friends who are virtuosos, we just would go, wow, he can play his *** off. That was the thing. We didn't feel anything necessarily. Sometimes we did, but I was determined to try and make people feel something every time. And to me, I wanted people to feel happy because I wanted to feel happy. Why do I want to write sad music?

Adam: So that phrase, speaking to the souls of a million strangers, it's clearly an iconic thing about your music. The other striking thing, I think, which you've talked about, is about life, not just your music, but I think obviously connected, is not about surviving the storm, but learning how to dance in the rain. Is that one of the tenets of your approach to music and life? Are they the same thing?

Nile: That's exactly it. That's why people wonder why I do so much music, and it's because I believe that I could always, I honestly, and this is not an egotistical statement, I always believe that I can add something to the song. I believe that I can make it better, even if it's just a little better, but you can hear it. I mean, five minutes before I came down here, I asked an artist that I sent a piece of music to, I said, you never wrote me back. How do you feel about the guitar streams that I sent you? And Kygo just wrote me, he said, he just literally just wrote me, where the hell is it? I went, cool. He went, oh, yes sir, sounding really cool *laughs*. Minutes ago.

Adam: Okay. So look, we need to talk more about that, but I want, you're here not for the music, but for the work of your, and Nancy, your partner's, foundation. And David Saddington, sitting next to you, is a trustee of that foundation. You also happen to be a trustee of the Woodland Trust as well. So the purpose of the We Are Family Foundation is what?

David: I mean, the We Are Family Foundation, Nile and Nancy started 20, 25 years ago now, which is insane *both laugh*. And Nile, I mean, you'll tell it better than me in terms of sort of your origin story, which came from, you know, a horrendous event of 9/11. And Nile and Nancy wanted to do something positive for the world, to heal the world. And thankfully, you know, when they sort of asked that question around how do we sort of have more peace in the world, how do we have more harmony, young people came out as the answer and actually finding that hope, finding that positivity, finding those solutions. So the foundation really is built upon curating, nurturing and growing this talent and giving these young people visibility.

Adam: And the work that the We Are Family Foundation is starting to do in Northern Ireland, we were today at a planting with Nile and Nancy and you. What is the project here?

David: Yeah, my God, like, you know, I work on climate change every day. It's really sort of hard and difficult, but actually by doing something very local with the Woodland Trust, you make such a tremendous difference, not only just about place, but the communities which you bring along. So this partnership just made a lot of sense. And then when we started talking after that visit around sort of why it made sense to support from the foundation, Northern Ireland came out really as a winner. And the beautiful site we visited earlier in the Faughan Valley is so special because, in a sad way really, because so little of the ancient woodland is left in Northern Ireland, less than 1%. And the vision of the Woodland Trust in Northern Ireland to preserve those tiny fragments of ancient woodland, but protect them by restoring the land around it, letting them expand, is so special. And particularly given that site is, what, I mean, like 10 minutes away from Derry? That's so cool. It is right on the doorstep of so many people to restore such a precious habitat, but make sure that people can actually enjoy it and be part of that as well. Amazing.

Adam: A little before Nile and I sat down to speak, we both visited Faughan Valley Woodlands with a group of young people who were there to help plant some trees. Now, this is an important area. Since 2000, the Woodland Trust has brought small clusters of native woodlands, including Brackfield, Oaks, Red Brae, Burntollet, Killaloo and Auter, all fragmented along the Faughan Valley, which is a site of special scientific interests. And it's been a vision of the Woodland Trust Northern Ireland for well over a decade, really, to try and connect these fragments for both people and nature. And so when I met the younger people who are busy planting trees, I asked them why they felt what they were doing was important.

Speaker 1: So usually it's around every Sunday morning. We go around and it's just odd jobs, like it's never the same thing every week. It's usually planting trees, but recently we've been building fences to keep sheep out and removing tree guards.

Adam: And why are you interested in that instead of watching TV or playing Xbox or whatever?

Speaker 1: Well, I've always kind of liked outdoorsy stuff in nature and usually I wouldn't really do much on a Sunday. So it's just better to get out rather than do nothing on a Sunday morning so.

Adam: And you're about to plant a tree.

Speaker 1: Yeah.

Adam: Do we know what type of tree that is?

Speaker 1: I think it's oak.

Adam: Oh, there we are see, I don't know, but you know, go on plant away.

Speaker 2: I'm Sophie McGee.

Adam: And what are you doing, Sophie?

Speaker 2: Well, we're planting trees today for the 30th anniversary. It's just more interesting because we're actually doing something that's worthwhile for the environment and for ourselves.

Adam: And do you feel you're making a difference?

Speaker 2: Yes, every tree will help. No matter if it's a wee tiny stick or a big massive one.

Speaker 3: Well my name is Evie, I'm 13 years old and I've always been interested in nature and plants and animals and stuff and then my auntie decided, or she showed me the Woodland Trust young volunteers so I thought that sounds right up my street. So I joined, I've only been here for a few weeks and so far I've really enjoyed it. We've been trimming down, we've been trimming away trees that'll grow back to let light into the forest floor. We've been looking at different kinds of moths and caterpillars and we've been for walks and here we are planting trees and meeting celebrities!

Speaker 4: My name's Milo and you know we're with the Woodland Trust, you know, planting trees and stuff because, well, you know, trees are important and they support a lot of species and insects and wildlife and it's great for the water quality and soil erosion in general. And in my opinion personally, I think biodiversity is really important, especially in, the UK and Northern Ireland in general. It's just seem to be really sort of nature depleted and, you know, I kind of want to change that. I think it doesn't seem fair, you know?

Adam: Nile, I think the phrase we've already used many times is We Are Family, the name of one of your most successful songs, but obviously the name of your foundation. And we've talked about your family. That's an obvious theme, family. I'm struck by that because of a disjointed background, even though loving and literarily full. Your family were artists and you had a full and rich literary life. The connection to family, clearly a theme for you. Why?

Nile: It wasn't my idea. It was other people's ideas. And they talked me into it. I, as an artist, I wrote We Are Family for Sister Sledge and for Sister Sledge alone. I didn't write it for the world. I wrote it for them. And they, it was their job to now take it out into the world, which they did very well. But what happened as a byproduct of the composition was just the love that I put into the song that my partner Bernard Edwards and I put into the song, we were trying to talk about this wonderful family, you won't believe this, that we never met. We never met Sister Sledge until they came in to sing the song. The entire album was already produced. We didn't know any other way to make records except for by ourselves. So we made the record and said, okay, now sing this. And they were like, what? We've never been treated like this. We're like, we don't know any other way to make records. Me and Luther Vandross and Bernard Edwards and Tony Thompson, and we go in and we write and produce, and there you go, here's your record. But so the love that we projected onto Sister Sledge was something that we superimposed upon them. We don't know whether they liked each other or not. We just presupposed that they did. And that's what we wrote, this loving, anthemic, wonderful dance song. And Kathy Sledge, at 15 years old, came in and just gave the performance of her life. We actually had them locked out the studio because we still hadn't finished the lyrics to We Are Family *both laugh*. It was the final song that we wrote, right? So we wouldn't let them come in. We're inside trying to be professional. And they're like, why can't we come in and hear what you guys are making as demos? Making as demos? No, we made, it's the record. But anyway, what happened was, as a result of the popularity of the song, this baseball team in America, the Pittsburgh Pirates, adopted it as their theme song. And they're not women, they're men. And we saw these big burly men going, we are family, I got all my sisters with me. And I was like, whoa. And anyway, they won the World Series *laughs*.

Adam: But I mean, that's a fascinating insight how you made that song. But what I'm struck by is that you have talked about this deeper hidden meaning, your phrase, right, behind your songs. So that's an obvious question to ask. You talk about family. It's a key song in your career. It hints of the deeper meaning here is about the importance of your family. And your family are unusual. Super talented people, not particularly stable, I hope that's not insulting or anything. But it's sort of, I'd expect you to maybe be more traumatised by that or to have, but no, it's all good. It's all good.

Nile: It wasn't, you see, it wasn't traumatic because I developed my own survival mechanism and it was actually good. But I don't think you realise this. I said, everybody told me, oh, you got Grammys, you got this, you're the head of the Songwriters Hall of Fame, you're the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, I said, you know what? The thing that I am the most proud of in my life is at seven years old, I set the national truancy record for the United States of America *both laugh*. I cut school 75 days in a row and went to the movies. I learned more at the cinema in 75 days than everybody in my class learned in an entire semester. You could see Fellini, you could see Truffaut, you could see anything. My mom, when she had her second child, suffered from postpartum depression and threatened to murder my brother every day. So after a few weeks, and I can't remember how long it took because I was a child, but after her going to psychiatrist every day, that's how bad it was, they decided that she had to be separated from her children. She was a danger to herself and others. So they sent me off to Los Angeles to live with my maternal grandmother. And my youngest brother, who was just born, was sent to live with his paternal grandparents. And so while I was in Los Angeles, I was treated ah man, boy, talk about bullying. Every place in LA was sort of run by gangs. And I didn't know anything about the gang culture. And I spoke like a New Yorker. And everybody in LA was, you know, street slang. And, you know, and now look at how big hip hop is. You know, that's the way that that everyone spoke. I didn't know half the stuff they were saying. So kids would try and beat me up. They only beat me up once, no, twice, sorry, twice. And then I just decided, I'm not going to where those kids are. I'm going to where adults are. Because I got along with adults and I went to the cinema every day for 75 days straight.

Adam: There's lots to talk about, not much time. But I do want to ask one more question around this sort of area. In actually the podcast we've just done, I spoke to quite a significant business leader who has ADHD. And I said to him at the end of the chat we had, if you had a magic wand and could wave away your ADHD, would you do it? And he went, no, I absolutely wouldn't do it because it's part of who I was, I am, and it's informed and helped me. And I wonder if there's a similar question about your drug past, whether if you could wipe it away, would you?

Nile: Never, never, ever, ever, ever. I, you know, I developed a very horrible drug habit. I actually, my heart stopped six times in one night. I don't remember the medical phrase, but it's called something like multiple drug interaction. Like, so if you take cocaine and then you take alcohol and then you take either LSD or something else, your brain doesn't know which one is dominant, right? So it starts going, it tells your heart, do I expand or contract? I don't know. And every time they tried to revive me, I would only stay alert or alive, my heart would only pump a couple of times and then stop again.

Adam: So what did that bring you as an artist in retrospect?

Nile: Nothing. Because to me, all I remember was driving home, Not getting into an accident, not getting a ticket, driving home, parking in my same parking space, going up to my apartment. However, I mistakenly pushed the number 14 instead of 28. That saved my life. I didn't know that I did, I didn't know I made a mistake. I was so high, I thought 14 was 28. The way that they emptied the garbage in my building, they started at the top and they went down floor by floor. When the elevator hit 14, the doors opened, I fell out onto the floor dead. They just happened to be on the 14th floor and they saw me lying there dead. They go over, I have no pulse. They probably tried to do, I don't know any of this for a fact because I was, out, yeah. So I just assumed they must have tried to help me. They liked me, so they must have tried to do something. Fortunately, the hospital was two blocks away from my house. And they get me to the hospital. The doctors revived me six times. After the sixth time, they figured this is hopeless because they did everything they could possibly do. And he said that, we worked so hard to save your life, but in fact, I was filling out the death certificate and the orderly in the room said, hey doc, we got a live one here. And my heart just started going automatically again by itself.

Adam: Amazing. I want to bring you back to your foundation. So we're here because of the good work you're doing for the environment. But the environmental issue may be relatively new, but you've been a political activist since your early days. This is not a recent conversion. You're super plugged in to these sort of big debates, aren't you? Part of the Black Panthers in your early age?

Nile: Yeah, I was a subsection of the Black Panther Party when I was 16 years old.

Adam: So lots of political issues. Why now the environment?

Nile: It's just one of many issues that We Are Family Foundation supports. You asked me about being a nerd. So I grew up as a scientist. I have a scientific background. So I understand how these things in our environment are fundamentally to life itself. That, if you think about it, in today's world, there are a million different species on this planet, but that's only 1% of all the life that's ever lived on this planet. So it just goes up and down and up and down. And prior to humans, we were never the cause. Now we're the cause of things dying and species going away. Before, it was just the fact that Earth was this very volatile planet and over millions, billions, in fact, years, things were changing. But now we're doing the bad stuff. We're killing ourselves, which is incredible. And it's mainly because most people don't know that all these life forms are dependent upon one another. Last night I heard someone talking about plankton. And I was saying, yeah, well, look at how important plankton is. You know, like hydrogen, we need, we don't have hydrogen, we have no life. You know, it's like, so, I mean, trees do, all plants, but trees, you know, especially, do so much for life. Let's not just talk about the overall environment, life, all life forms that exist.

Adam: We're running out of time. Just one last question each. David, first, you set the context of what that foundation is doing here and what the Trust is doing here. What are your hopes for if Nile, us, we all gather, come back in ten years' time? Your hope for the project by then would be what?

David: I mean, my hope for the project in that time is to see the forest grow, because what I find so encouraging is when you let nature recover with a little bit of help from us, it doesn't take that long to actually start putting it right, you know, to restore those habitats, to protect that ancient woodland, to let it regrow, rejuvenate, with the help of people supporting communities at the same time. It can recover in such a remarkable amount of time, which I just find really quite hopeful and empowering in the world we're in at the moment. Will it restore very precious nature here in Northern Ireland? Will it inspire people to make a difference with all the volunteers we're bringing in? Absolutely. And who knows what the catalytic sort of nature of that will be, which I think is sort of magical to see. So it's a pleasure to bring this partnership together between the We Are Family Foundation and the Woodland Trust and see that grow and grow over the years.

Adam: And I think often with trees, people think it's 100 years, their great-grandchildren will come. That's not the case, is it? 10, 20 years is a reasonable time frame to see significant change in this landscape we just visited this morning.

David: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, some of the trees we were walking around this morning, the beautiful silver birches, which looked like a woodland, were 20 years old. And actually, it is incredible, actually, it doesn't take a huge amount of time for nature to recover.

Adam: Nile, last question. It's been an amazing life. It is an amazing life, perhaps a great life. Your third act? Hard to imagine what new things you could do, but do you, what are the, how do you see your future and what you want to spend that third act doing?

Nile: Wow, I'm doing so much now. I'm almost going back to where I started, which was with theatre performances that are more story-ented instead of just going out and playing a whole bunch of hit songs. I think I got super inspired completely accidentally. I wrote a song for Diana Ross years ago. And the first time I worked for the Prince's Trust, he said, now, my dear fellow, I wish I knew more of your music, everybody seems to love it so much. And then he became the King and he printed out his top 10 favorite songs. Number 3 was one of my songs. And he didn't realise it because, you know, the King, what have you got time to sit around and read, you know *laughs* And I said to him, I said, you know, Your Majesty, I promise you, you know some of my songs. But then his list comes out and my #3 song, I mean my song, Upside Down by Diana Ross is #3. He was like, that's one of my favorite songs, and there's a whole video that we put out of him sort of like doing his best dance to Upside Down. It's quite funny. I just thought that the one thing I've not really explored or worked hard on, I'm at the part of my life where I really do want to do all the music that I can do. And I want it to have the same effect as the pop music that I do. So I want my jazz music to make people feel good. So I did Candy Dulfer's last record and she's just unreal. So that's really, I think, where I want to be. And honestly, and I'm being very, very honest, I never keep track of any of this stuff. I did a conference a few weeks ago, and it was all these billionaires and all these tech guys and blah, blah, blah. And I said, you know, I did the biggest selling Madonna album in the world, we sold 10 million copies. All of my memories are from when I first heard this stuff. And somebody hollered out from the back of the room, 23 million copies, you know Nile, it keeps selling and keeps adding up. And I went, oh. In the first few weeks, we sold 10 million copies. And that's all I remember. And I move on to the next record and the next record and the next record. I had huge success with the last two Beyoncé records. But I've done that, and obviously you can see with Kygo, I continue to do that. That's never going to go away. But when I think in terms of full projects, it's going to be more theatrical and maybe more film.

David: There's about two things as well. There's one thing that you said to me before, which I think is just so great about the foundation, about how you want the foundation to be bigger than the song, which I think is a pretty epic aspiration there to have, the We Are Family Foundation and We Are Family the song, but I just think that's amazing to think around, the impact which has been achieved over twenty-five years and thinking about the years to come, and then secondly, because with your audience, Adam, we have so many obviously sort of people who love getting out on walks and nature. And my goodness, you won't be up as early as this guy doing his morning walks. And you definitely need to follow him on Instagram at a moment because he's on a roll doing sort of walks all over the world.

Nile: It's true. I love, you know, I wake up every morning very, very early. Right now, life and enjoying nature and being out in it is really exciting. Like when I was younger, being indoors, like I used to, there was a joke I used to say, I used to go to like clubs every night and go, ah the great indoors *all laugh*.

Adam: Well, look, a sample of how busy you are is I know you have other meetings to go to and other jobs to do, so I won't keep you anymore. Here's to the good times. Thank you very much indeed, both of you.

Nile: Thank you. I hope I wasn't too long-winded.

David: Thank you.

Adam: You were brilliant. It's a real treat to talk to you.

David: A pleasure.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

Have you ever wondered what trees taste like? That's the thought that spurred our guest, Ben Branson, to launch his latest venture, Sylva. We meet in Essex at his woodland, distillery and lab, where he crafts non-alcoholic drinks that capture the natural flavours of trees. Also the founder of Seedlip, the world's first distilled non-alcoholic spirit, Ben has now turned his focus entirely to nature to make Sylva 'a tree company that makes drinks'. Join us to explore the production process, admire a centuries-old oak that could offer a new flavour, and discover Ben's mission to encourage others to love trees as much as he does. We also learn how Ben's ADHD and autism help fuel his curiosity and innovation, and inspired him to launch The Hidden 20%, a charity, podcast and movement finding and sharing the truth about neurodiversity.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, in today's episode of Woodland Walks, I'm off to see a man who invented the world's first distilled non-alcoholic drink. It was called Seedlip and effectively he created it in his kitchen and took it to 40 countries and in the process, I think it's fair to say, helped change the world of adult drinks and it certainly spurned lots of imitators, which you may well know. He also has a different mission. Really, I think it's fair to say his mission is now at least partly to involve the environment in much of what he does. He has, for instance, won two golds at the prestigious Chelsea Flower Show, and last year launched Pollen Projects, which aims to continue to disrupt the drinks industry, in particular though, by harnessing the flavour powers of trees. And that's something I suppose I've really never thought about. Anyway, so I met him at his farm, his home, his laboratory - they're all more or less the same thing - somewhere in Essex.

Ben: My name is Ben Branson. I'm the founder of Sylva.

Adam: Fantastic. So first of all, we've lots to talk about.

Ben: We do.

Adam: Because we are sitting in an amazing, is this a laboratory?

Ben: Yeah, I guess.

Adam: It doesn't feel like a laboratory, it feels something much more designery. It feels like a Porsche should be made here or something. Anyway, looking over an extraordinary landscape, and we're going to go for a walk through that. But first of all, would you tell me a little bit about what, I suppose, what's brought you here and your history and why, why you're doing what you're doing.

Ben: So I grew up on a farm and my family have been farming up in Lincolnshire for 320 years now. So that's nine generations and we're still farming. And I guess that meant I enjoyed a childhood largely outside and trees played a big part of that. Animals did, fields, produce, and hard work, I guess, not from me, but from my family.

Adam: Right. So did you ever work on the farm?

Ben: I did, yeah. And I would spend summers...

Adam: So you got your hands dirty?

Ben: Yeah, I would spend summers sitting on a tractor or going and sitting with my grandfather on a combine.

Adam: Right. And you came to prominence for something completely different. I mean, not sheep or potatoes or anything, but the non-alcoholic drink called Seedlip. So briefly, how on earth did that happen?

Ben: Yeah, Seedlip was a, I guess, a series of sort of curious accidents.

Adam: I suppose we should pause, just tell, for those who don't know, what on earth we're talking about, what is Seedlip?

Ben: So Seedlip was the, or is, the world's first distilled non-alcoholic spirit.

Adam: Fine.

Ben: So botanicals, distilled. and made into various different blends that you could have with tonic or in a cocktail.

Adam: Will you get annoyed or too crude to describe it as a non-alcoholic gin?

Ben: Too crude in that it is illegal to describe it as a non-alcoholic gin now *both laugh*

Adam: Oh okay, not just too crude! Okay, incorrect. But okay, in my mind, I saw it as a...

Ben: Akin to.

Adam: Akin to.

Ben: In that, in that world of a clear, botanical-driven liquid.

Adam: Fine. So we know what it is.

Ben: We know what it is. I've never worked for somebody else's drinks business before. I've never worked in manufacturing. Yeah, I learned how to distill ingredients partly through YouTube, partly through a book that was originally published in 1651. I have a 1664 copy of here called The Art of Distillation that details apothecaries' experiments for herbal remedies using distillation. So I, this started with me growing herbs at home and down the rabbit warren of Wikipedia looking at different lists of ingredients.

Adam: So why did you want to do that?

Ben: Because I'm the kind of guy that has a collection of 4,000 1940s Penguin books. And I'm the kind of guy that learned how to do taxidermy in an ancient church on a family farm in Lincolnshire. And I'm the kind of guy that likes to tinker and experiment and go really deep into things that I'm interested in.

Adam: So it was just a, it wasn't, this wasn't, 'I'm going to be a businessman', you just fancied having a go?

Ben: Nothing to do with drinks. I was just curious.

Adam: Amazing.

Ben: And taking mint from my garden and then making a liquid that smells and tastes like that plant was really magical.

Adam: I mean, I don't want to talk about Seedlip a lot.

Ben: Me neither *laughs*

Adam: No, but just, I suppose, the last question on that, it must have come a point at which you've gone, this is a project in my garage to, hey, we could do this. How important was that? How significant a moment was that?

Ben: Yeah, so the two key turning points were one, driving into London to go out for dinner, obviously not drinking alcohol and being served the most disgusting, pink, fruity, sweet, horrible mocktail and thinking, why is it so difficult to get a decent option? That was one key moment. And the second key moment was I made 1,000 bottles of Seedlip two years after I'd started distilling and I thought they'd last six months and they sold out in Selfridges in three weeks. And that went from my kitchen to, yeah, 35 countries and set this movement alight, which is all part of, yeah, we're slowly meandering towards now where we've got to today.

Adam: So you sold that to Diageo?

Ben: I sold the majority of that to Diageo in 2019.

Adam: You own a bit of it.

Ben: Yes.

Adam: And now you're starting a new venture.

Ben: Yes.

Adam: Which is?

Ben: Which is a company called Pollen Projects that has two brands. Seasn, which is a pair of cocktail bitters. So people may know Angostura. Very intense, concentrated, strong liquids that transform your sparkling water or your cocktail. And then my favourite, favourite project, which is Sylva, which is all about trees and making aged non-alcoholic spirits.

Adam: So we'll talk about the trees, we'll, let's go for a trip about that. But before we get into all of those specifics, I think I'm right in saying that you, one of the purposes, one of the sort of foundations of the work you do is a sort of purpose-led business. Again, is that a fair description?

Ben: Absolutely.

Adam: And the business talks about that. Now, I'm a business journalist. It's now ubiquitous for businesses to go, we're purpose-led and we feel we're strong in the community. And one of the problems for journalists, and I think the public at large, is distinguishing between those who have some sort of genuine purpose here and those who feel we need to add that as our marketing strand.

Ben: Yeah.

Adam: Do you recognise that issue and if so, how do you overcome that? It must be very difficult to go, no no, I know everyone's saying this, but I really believe it.

Ben: I am very, very clear that the reason why I'm doing this is because this is a way in which I can express myself. This isn't work for me. This is how I express myself because it's what I'm interested in. I'm very interested in trees and I'm incredibly curious and I really want to learn. And so I believe that trees are this most incredible, underestimated source of flavour, as well as all the other wonderful things that we already know about trees. And I want people to love trees. And so that is, if I can make a product that meets a need in people's lives and tastes delicious and they want to drink again, that for me is a real win-win rather than, I don't know, any other kind of business purposes or made-up, I'm really clear, like half of this is really selfish.

Adam: Selfish in what way?

Ben: In the sense that I want to keep working with trees. And I want to explore trees in my working life rather than it being a hobby at the weekends.

Adam: And is it about that? Is it about like, I like trees and I want to work in the environment and it's great because I've got a sort of commercial reason to do that. Is there something, I get that, is there something also about social purpose, about feeling that the business should do some good or not? I don't mean to judge it in either way because it's perfectly fine for business not to do that.

Ben: Sure. I think it's baked in. Seedlip, Sylva, Seasn. Someone said to me, probably about 12 months ago, they're born good. They don't have any alcohol in them. They are there to offer choice and they are there to include people. That's already baked in, in terms of the product. And so, yeah, there's lots of details we have with Sylva of some of the environmental credentials around our packaging or what we do with our waste, all that, but they are sort of below the surface, as it were. Ultimately, we want people to have a delicious drink and a great option and great choice.

Adam: And how important do you think the public feel that sort of role for companies? It feels to me that certainly since COVID, there was a bigger demand for the public to hear companies stand up for something. Do you see that or do you think that was there and has gone away or what's your view on that?

Ben: I, or we, are big believers that our brands or the company should have a point of view and part of your company having a point of view is how you're positioned in the market and against your competitors and ultimately what makes you unique and different.

Adam: The weather's been so good to us, so I don't want to stay in too long. But I suppose the last question, I read other interviews you've done talking about other business leaders who've inspired you. Who and why?

Ben: So David Hieatt was one of the team behind howies jeans. And then he went on to, he's a Welshman, he moved back to Wales to a town that used to be famous for making jeans. And over a, I don't know, 10, 12 year period, he got that town making jeans again. And those jeans were typically worn by lots of creative people. I hate jeans, so I never bought a pair.

Adam: Sorry, here I am wearing a pair of jeans, you should have said. *both laugh*

Ben: I just hate wearing them. I hate wearing them. And I just followed, I can't even remember how I came across him. I followed his work. He then, I was amazed to be included in one of his, he calls them mavericks and makers. I was included in one of his lists of people doing interesting things. And then I was invited to give a talk at his sort of cult following retreat called the Do Lectures.

Adam: The Do Lectures?

Ben: The Do Lectures. And it's an amazing retreat on a farm in Wales. Everyone's sort of in wigwams and you kind of, you're in this old, old barn giving this, giving this talk. And I sort of plucked up a bit of courage to actually talk to him, but was quite starstruck actually. And I've just followed his writing and and he came out with a brilliant phrase that we used or adopted or adapted, which was Hiut Denim was an ideas company that made jeans. And I loved that. And we adapted that for Seedlip to be a nature company that made drinks. And I've adapted it again for Sylva to be a tree company that makes drinks. And so we are not just our product and the thing that we make, I guess. So David is, he's a wonderful writer, great thinker, and yeah, I love him.

Adam: Okay, brilliant. Which is a good point. You raised the trees, which is why we're here. Let's go hug some.

Ben: That's the most important room. That's the wood room.

Adam: Okay, so this is, right. Sorry, what's the dog called?

Ben: The dog is Pesto.

Adam: Pesto, enormous Pesto. Enormous Pesto. So we're in a shed. That's an ultrasound you can hear in the background, which Ben will explain why. So you've got bits of wood with numbers on, so you're just trying out, oh, so you chipped up the wood?

Ben: Yeah, we chip up the wood, that's plum.

Adam: Right.

Ben: So everything's from the UK. That'll be probably apple... So we process all the wood here.

Adam: Right. And then, okay, so we can hear the ultrasound next door. So you've got lots of chips of apple, let's say. You dry it out in a domestic oven. You've got a couple of ovens. The point of putting it in this ultrasound is what?

Ben: Yeah, so we want to extract the flavour and the character from the wood. So we distill grain in the lab where we just were. And then we fill a keg with the wood chips and the grain distilled. So you've got liquid and wood together. We add lots of oxygen to that to make it a really rich environment. And then we put it in our ultrasound machine.

Adam: And the ultrasound does what?

Ben: And the ultrasound gets into the wood and forces out all of the aromatic compounds. So we're talking esters, the tannins, the colour, all the bits that taste yummy, we take out, and that's cycling on 28,000 kilohertz ultrasound at temperature for varying different amounts of time.

Adam: And then you have a liquid.

Ben: Then we have a liquid.

Adam: Which has got flavours in it.

Ben: Exactly. And then we're separating the wood from the liquid, and we want all the wonderful flavour from the wood to go into the grain liquid.

Adam: And is that literally just, well, I've got a bit of liquid, I'm going to add a bit of flavour to that? Is that sort of...

Ben: Yeah, I mean, this process for me started 14 years ago. There's nobody in the world doing this. I've had to basically develop and create a whole production process.

Adam: Wow, amazing.

Ben: I'm interested in the whole tree, yeah, and what flavour is there in different parts of the tree, different ages of tree, different growing conditions of trees. I mean, the scope when there's 73,000 tree species is enormous.

Adam: So you've got that...

Ben: And then we have silver walnut, which was a very small, we only made 300 bottles. All of the wood comes from here. And that was a real, I wanted to try and capture kind of the forest in winter, so a dormant forest. And that uses black walnut wood, sweet chestnut wood, elm wood. We had an elm tree fall down and so we took some of that. And then we sourced some reindeer moss, which is actually a lichen from Scotland. And so, yeah, silver walnut, which comes in packaging made of the forest floor. So mycelium, you get a couple of glasses.

Adam: So are you never cutting down a tree? Are you taking bits of it?

Ben: I'm not saying we're never cutting down a tree, but we are being very choiceful with how we source and where it comes from. And look, trees are falling down all the time.

Adam: Yeah, no, I understand.

Ben: And we don't need to... Yeah, we can, basically, we can use a very small amount of wood for a lot of bottles.

Adam: And what happens, so you get all this wood, you've chipped it up, you're extracting all the flavours, now you have a lot of wood without any flavour in it. So what happens to all that stuff?

Ben: So the spent wood, two things. One, at the moment, because we are small and new and kind of figuring out what we're doing, everything goes back to the forest. So to compost, back to the forest floor.

Adam: You just spread it around?

Ben: Yeah. What we'd, I mean, we can use it as mulch in the orchard. What we'd love to do is, you know, I know we could dry that wood out and make incense from it, for example. I know that we could dry that wood out and make a surface. And there are lots of, there is terrazzo type products called ferrazzo.

Adam: I don't know what those are.

Ben: Terrazzo is the, you'll see it, it's speckly kitchen surfaces that have got bits of ceramics and yeah, well, somebody's launched ferrazzo with bits of wood in.

Adam: *laughs* Okay fair enough.

Ben: So yeah, I think there's a lot that we could do in the future. We can't eat wood, because our bodies can't process lignin. But in terms of, yeah, the afterlife of what happens when we've extracted the flavour and the colour, there's going to be options.

Adam: So this whole area of using trees for a drink, I've not, I mean, I'm ignorant of loads of stuff, so maybe this is common and I just don't know about it, but how novel is this?

Ben: It's, if you think about maple syrup, birch water, we've tapped trees for a long time. And then you think about aged alcoholic spirits, specifically whisky, I guess. And then you think...

Adam: And oaked wines.

Ben: And oaked wines. Or you think about barbecued food, smoked food. We actually do have this connection and a lot of history in terms of the flavour and power of wood for things that we kind of consume. But in non-alcoholic drinks, yeah, not in the process that we're using or to the breadth of trees that we're working with.

Adam: It's quite primal in a way, the way you describe it there. You can imagine early cooking would have taken place on wood, wouldn't it?

Ben: Yes, yes.

Adam: So, and then we go, oh, actually that tastes quite nice, that sort of woody flavour to it.

Ben: I liken it to, or the picture I have, the most perfect rose-tinted picture I have in my mind is, I am sat by a fire, a wood fire, on a wooden chair, at a wooden table, with a piece of paper, and a pen that uses oak gall ink.

Adam: Right, yeah.

Ben: And I am drinking, probably from a wooden vessel, some Sylva.

Adam: OK.

Ben: And that is, you know, that's kind of, that's pretty heavenly, I think, in my head.

Adam: Have you ever...

Ben: Here's a sweet chestnut tree.

Adam: Have you ever written with oak gall?

Ben: I haven't. Have you?

Adam: Yes.

Ben: Have you! And?

Adam: Yeah, I mean... *both laugh* We just did it in the forest, so I'm sure you can improve the quality of the ink. But it is extraordinary that you go, I think, I could have got this wrong, but I think Shakespeare wrote with oak gall.

Ben: Absolutely. A thousand years of printing history.

Adam: Yeah, I mean, it is extraordinary and it sort of worked. You know, it wasn't great, but then we didn't know what we were doing. So it is interesting that you just go, take that off the tree, grind that up, let's write. And you go, it worked. That's extraordinary that that worked at all, really. So yeah, yeah. *both laugh*

Ben: All because of a little wasp. I mean, it's kind of... Yeah, it is it is wild.

Adam: Amazing. So I know you're running a business and this is both your home and then the business and whatever, but what do you think about the environmental debate? We live in interesting times where, I mean, even really recently, people have been talking about moving to net zero and then lots of very serious political figures talking about, well, no, that's actually not going to work and stepping back from commitments to electric cars, and I think politicians are doing that partly because they feel there isn't the public support for the costs of supporting the environment. What's your take on all this?

Ben: I've been probably a few, maybe three, four years ago, I was really hopeful. I think there was some real energy behind COP and there was some just, there was, it felt like there was just a lot happening. And then the last couple of years, I guess, I felt less hopeful in terms of the, sustainability has lost its edge and lost, maybe just lost being a priority. Or we've got bored of it or lots of things have been set up which are brilliant and there is a bit of lack of interest from the public. Or we've stopped worrying so much about the future of the environment because other things have come in for us to worry about.

Adam: Right, so you think we have a limited scope for worrying and that's full?

Ben: Yeah, I do. So I don't know, I kind of, you know, and it's obviously it's incredibly geopolitical and dependent on the time in terms of who's in charge and therefore what energy this gets given and therefore what then seeps into the media, the narrative, the public discourse on this. And I can't speak for everybody, but if I had a sense, it would probably be, I'm doing my bit now. You told me I need to recycle this or turn this off or get an electric car or I don't know, like I'm doing that.

Adam: Yeah.

Ben: So what are you guys doing? You know, I don't know. Not that I'm not hopeful, but I feel like the sentiment has become less hopeful.

Adam: You think these things change?

Ben: Absolutely. I mean, look at the, yeah, I, if I... hold on to the last 10 years of seeing our attitudes towards alcohol and the non-alcoholic drinks options to now where we are, things can change.

Adam: Yeah. It is interesting. I mean, which way? Because we've got...

Ben: I just wanted to draw this wonderful oak tree to your attention.

Adam: Oh I see, yes. This is something from Harry Potter, the great whomping willow.

Ben: The whomping willow.

Adam: That's right, yeah, which it's not a willow, but go on.

Ben: So our woodpecker...

Adam: Oh, yes, look at that.

Ben: Look at that. I mean, absolutely perfect, perfect hole. So this oak tree, probably at least 400 years old and struck by lightning last year.

Adam: Wow, is that what the damage we're seeing?

Ben: This natural char.

Adam: Yeah, I was going to say, we can see this very charred bit of it. Gosh, and there's bits fallen down, is that from the lightning strike?

Ben: This is what we've taken down.

Adam: Oh, you've taken that down.

Ben: So that is naturally charred. So to me that is...

Adam: Ahh, is that flavour?

Ben: Yeah.

Adam: Everyone else goes, oh my God, the tree got hit by lightning. Ben rushes out and goes, fantastic, a new flavour!

Ben: I am, that takes me to A, we've got some of that back at the lab. So we've, we've seen what it tastes like, which is wonderful. B, this is what barrels do to the, you know, it's what they do to the inside of a barrel, they char it. And 3, I start thinking, how can you engineer lightning to strike wood?

Adam: Right.

Ben: Not a tree, but wood.

Adam: Right, okay.

Ben: To create this natural char.

Adam: Okay, amazing. So we might see that in a drink sometime soon.

Ben: *laughs* Yeah, we love we love this tree.

Adam: You also run, well not run, you present a podcast about ADHD. Is that correct?

Ben: I set up a neurodiversity charity two years ago following my autism and ADHD diagnosis. And yeah, we set up a podcast called The Hidden 20% where on a weekly basis I sit down with everything from neuroscientists to top researchers, psychologists, celebrities, people running neurodiversity charities. And yeah, we kind of try and get to the truth.

Adam: And you having ADHD, is that significant for you?

Ben: It's significant in the sense that I didn't know that I was autistic and ADHD until I was 39. That's quite significant, and that's been a big learning.

Adam: But whether it was diagnosed or had a label or whatever, is sort of separate from what I was trying to ask, you must have noticed some characteristics?

Ben: Oh, I was the last to know, apparently.

Adam: Right. You didn't feel, or even looking back on it now, you don't feel that your ADHD has had some sort of influence on what you've done?

Ben: It's my brain, so it absolutely has influenced everything that I've done. But given that I saw my first psychiatrist when I was 8, and I've seen multiple psychologists, psychiatrists, you know, I've been in rehab in my early 20s, and no one ever, ever had talked about autism, ADHD. And so to get to 39, and I'm not alone, unfortunately, and a huge amount of people who've been missed, because we thought it was only little boys.

Adam: Right. Do you think it's been, whatever challenges or difficulties that's brought, in looking in retrospect, do you think it's brought some positives as well?

Ben: Oh, I think one of the biggest challenges around people and understanding or having more understanding around neurodiversity is that it's not all bad and that it's not a disease. And there are huge, you know, I have, I'm a synesthete, so I can taste colour and I see flavour and colour.

Adam: Ok so that's a very clear benefit isn't it!

Ben: Really helpful. I have a pretty photographic memory, which is incredibly helpful when you're analysing or trying to memorise lots of different plants or trees and behaviour around how a tree performs.

Adam: Seems to me you're also very focused. Is that fair?

Ben: Very focused.

Adam: And that's often a symptom, isn't it, super focus?

Ben: Yeah, so we talk about, in ADHD, people talk about hyper-focus. And in autism, people talk about special interests.

Adam: Right.

Ben: And I have both of those *laughs*. And trees, so trees is my special interest and being ADHD allows me to hyper-focus on that. I'm only learning that I can harness it and use it and I have a really good understanding of how my brain works now and that's massively empowering.

Adam: Okay, brilliant. All right. Well, you've taken us on a circuit. We're back to, not the shed, that's a terrible...

Ben: The lab.

Adam: The barn. Very nice barn. So shall we go back in? Is there something to taste?

Ben: Yeah, I think we should have a drink.

Adam: I shouldn't leave without tasting it. Brilliant.

Ben: No *laughs* You can go and see all this apple wood as well.

Adam: Oh yeah. Oh look, the apple wood van is leaving. So has he deposited his apple wood? Yes. Okay, that was quick. So while Ben prepares some rather nice non-alcoholic tree tipples for us, I wanted to take this opportunity of thanking you for joining us on this particular podcast. And wherever you are and whenever you do it, I wanted to wish you from all of us, to all of you, some very happy wanderings.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

As we head towards the New Year, we catch up with Woodland Trust CEO Darren Moorcroft to reflect on 2025 and look back at some of our favourite episodes. Darren takes us through some of the challenges and successes of the last 12 months and emphasises how the power of public support for woods and trees can create a greener, healthier future for people and nature. We also share some highlights from past woodland walks, including reading a tree with natural navigator Tristan Gooley, a former golf course being transformed into a thriving community space in Cheshire, and a visit to Welsh woodlands with Kate Humble.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, as we head towards Christmas and New Year beyond that, many people will be looking back at what the past year brought them and indeed looking to the next year to see what things they want to do or what challenges they'll face. And I thought this was a good time for us to do that too on this podcast. Now, I have now done over 50 Woodland Walk podcasts for the Woodland Trust and so there's lots to pick from of some of my highlights over those 50 and I want to share just a few clips of those. But before we get to those clips, I wanted to share a chat I had with Darren Moorcroft, who is the chief executive of the Woodland Trust. And I began by asking him for his reflections on the challenges and achievements of the past year.

Darren: So I think throughout 2025, probably the greatest challenges that we've faced have been a range of things, but I'd say probably the greatest has been the kind of political environment in which we're operating. Now as an organisation, we are apolitical so we advocate on behalf of woods and trees and it's felt a little bit like in 2025, there's been a growth agenda that's been versus nature and versus the environment and versus woods and trees, rather than thinking about them being an integral part of and actually underpinning our entire economy. So that's been a real challenge for us to continue to step up to and make the case for why woods and trees for people and nature are so really important. And I think that then plays into some of the great achievements that the Trust has had. It's not only been a case of taking the urgency of the cause that we are fighting for and growing the relevance and resonance of the organisation's voice so that we can stand up for people and who care about trees, the great thing about the Woodland Trust is our supporter base is really ethos sort of centred. So all of our estate is free and open to all, regardless of whether you are a member of the Trust. And that means that people aren't buying their way into the benefits that woods and trees give them. They are understanding that the benefits should be there for everyone and for nature. And therefore, it's really a strong argument when talking to decision makers at any level of government, whether that's local government, metro mayors or in the devolved administrations or Westminster, there's a real power to the voice that the Woodland Trust has for woods, trees, people and nature. And people care about woods and trees, as we saw with incidences like the Sycamore Gap and the Whitewebbs Oak in Enfield. When those trees are damaged, destroyed, then there's a real outpouring of grief, it's fair to say, because people care about this part of our natural heritage, which is really important in their individual lives, but actually for society as a whole.

Adam: Well, there'll be more from Darren a little later on. But first, let's now go to one of my favourite clips. This is from a podcast where I met presenter and naturalist Kate Humble. Well, in early spring I went on a woodland walk in Wales with presenter, author and farmer Kate Humble, who was taking me around what promised to be some amazing woodland with her dogs. But as is increasingly common in these podcasts, We of course had to begin with me getting absolutely and entirely lost.

Okay, this is an absolute disaster. Although I am bad at directions, this is not my fault. So Kate sent me a pin because she said, well, this is going to be hard to find my place. She sent me a map pin. I followed the map pin. Look, I'm here. I don't know if you can hear this. You probably can't hear this. This is the gate that's locked, which is across some woodland path. So I can't get there. And of course, there is no phone signal. So I'm going to have to drive all the way back to some town to find a phone signal and I'm already late. Okay. I have managed to find a village where there is a phone signal. I've managed to call Kate. And Kate...*laughs* Kate has clearly got the measure of me and has told me to give up. And she is now going to get in her car and find me in this village and I will follow her back. In the meantime, we have passed Google Map pins back and forwards, which apparently tell her that I'm sitting outside her house, but I really am nowhere near her house. So I seem to have broken Google, which, well, that's a first. Anyway, I've got a banana here. So if she's a long time, I have dinner. Meantime I'll just wait. This will never happen. This will actually never happen. We found Kate. We found her. So, yeah. So, well, you're leading me off with your two dogs.

Kate: I am. I am. I'm leading you off into one of the most beautiful, I think. I mean, obviously I'm a little bit biased, but it is one of the most important areas of ancient woodland in Britain. This is the Wye Valley. We're the Lower Wye Valley, so we are the bit really where the River Wye is in its sort of last bit of its journey. It's risen in mid-Wales about... 136 miles from here. I know that because I've walked the whole route.

Adam: Really?

Kate: Yeah.

Adam: We're not doing that today, are we? No, we're not.

Kate: No, I promise. I promise, Adam *both laugh* So, yes, and we are basically about 5 or 6 miles from where it flows into the River Severn and then out into the Bristol Channel. And the woods around here are a lovely mix of broadleafs. So we're walking through broadleaf woodland now and this is literally, this is what I walk out of my front door. Aren't I lucky?

Adam: You are lucky.

Kate: I'm so lucky. So we've got a lovely mix of broadleaf woodland now and we're just coming into that time of year, which is the time of year that makes everybody's spirits lift because we are coming into spring. And if we actually just stop just for a second, you can hear that's a blue tit calling. And I mean, this isn't the perfect day for birdsong, but the birdsong is really picking up. And that's the lovely thing about living alongside woodlands. So even in the winter, even when you don't think there are any birds at all, what you hear in these woods is *makes ch-ch-ch noise* That's a very, very bad impression of a great spotted woodpecker. We're going to cut off piste a little bit and head down here.

Adam: Is this a precursor warning that I'm about to get bumps and scrapes?

Kate: This is a precursor warning that you might, yes, you might *laughs*. It's quite a steep descent.

Adam: That's fine. Just as long as, my face is my fortune so as long as that's safeguarded throughout this, that'll be fine.

Kate: *laughs* Of course. It'll be a soft landing.

Adam: Okay, well that's good. Yeah, lots of leaves around.

Kate: Lots of leaves.

Adam: So, I mean, I thought we were going to chat about your conversion to nature and everything, but actually that's a lot of nonsense. This has been a constant in your life.

Kate: Well, it's been, I mean, coming to Wales, so I did live in London, you know, after I left home.

Adam: I mean, you didn't choose a nature career, did you? I mean, you're involved now, we can talk about that, but first, what was your first career?

Kate: Well, I mean, career always seems such a grand word and that you've planned it.

Adam: Yeah, OK. So your accidental career.

Kate: So my accidental career. Well, I had this idea that I wanted to work in television, although, again, I don't really know where that came from. We're going just down here. Part of me also wanted to be a safari guide.

Adam: Right, good. I can see the appeal of that.

Kate: I went to, when I was 19, having never really been abroad at all, because again, our generation didn't really go abroad as a matter of course, and so I went to Africa when I was 19.

Adam: Sorry, we're not talking on a holiday?

Kate: No. It was a, it was a, it was probably a rebellion *laughs*

Adam: You went as far away as possible, I'm not going out for the evening, I'm popping off to Africa.

Kate: I'm popping off to Africa and I don't know when I'll be back. One of those.

Adam: Good exit line.

Kate: And I think it was that journey that turned my mind to really re-look and re-examine the natural world and think, it's extraordinary, it's extraordinary. It's mind-blowing in every way. And yeah, so even though I then came back and thought, I want to have this sort of career in telly, what I really wanted to do in my career in telly was work for the natural history unit.

Adam: Right. And is that what you did?

Kate: No.

Adam: And do you feel, I mean, you feel passionate about it. Do you feel evangelical about it?

Kate: Yes.

Adam: So what, do you have a prescription to help to bring others on side?

Kate: I wish it didn't mean, I wish you didn't have to ask me that question. I wish it didn't have to be an on side.

Adam: Do you feel that's an unfair question?

Kate: No, I don't. I think it's a very fair question because lots of people don't feel or don't, perhaps don't experience it, experience the advantages of the natural world or they haven't been given the opportunities to properly understand the impact that it can have on us and all those impacts are positive. I mean there's loads of science and you know it was talked about endlessly during the pandemic about how green spaces are good for our mental health, blue spaces are good for our mental health, being outdoors, being in nature, listening to birdsong, seeing plants grow, all those things are good for us. But we've got to a place where we've been so divorced from it, where we look for our pleasures in shopping malls and online, and we forget that actually all we need is right here.

Adam: One of the themes that has come up over our 50 or so podcasts many times is the fact that a lot of people feel rather lost in the environmental debate. They know there's problems but don't feel they can do very much about it. And that's an issue I asked Darren Moorcroft, the Woodland Trust CEO, to address.

Darren: I suppose in the face of some really big challenges that we face from climate change to nature loss, it can sometimes feel that that is such a big job, what can an individual do to play their part? And that might be that they can plant a tree if they have the opportunity, or if they're managing land, they are able to integrate trees into that land. But lots of us don't have that opportunity. So being a supporter of the Woodland Trust, giving a membership to the organisation, regular contributions adds real value. And it adds real value in a number of ways. The first of which is it gives that greater sense of voice when we as an organisation and me as chief executive can walk into what can be considered the corridors of power and say people care about woods and trees, they care about nature and they care about the benefits of those woods and trees for people. So it gives a real point to the sword when we're doing our advocacy. But the other way as well is, if you don't own large parts of, chunks of the UK, then actually what your contribution can do is be placed together with lots of others and we can make a difference with you and on your behalf. So, the individual, most individuals across the UK can't restore peatland. They can't plant new forests. But we can and we have done and we will do and continue to do so. And the only way we can do that is through those contributions that individuals make, which may on the surface only look like a small part of a bigger jigsaw, but without those small pieces, we don't able to create the picture that everybody wants to see in the landscape.

Adam: Well that's Darren talking about landscapes, which reminded me of another podcast in which I met a famous explorer who had, I suppose, relearned the skill of navigating the landscape without any tools, maps, compasses or computers.

Well today I'm off to meet a writer, navigator and explorer who has led expeditions in five continents and I'm told he's the only living person to have both flown solo and sailed single-handedly across the Atlantic. He's known as the natural navigator because he has learned how to find your way through the natural world, really by looking at the clues that nature provides us.

Tristan Gooley: There's a very widespread feeling that we ought to connect with nature, that we should feel something, that if we just go and stand in a wood, that it should somehow magically make us feel something. But actually, our brains have evolved to be doing things and to be understanding things. And if we think about the animal kingdom, which we're obviously part of, we're not the fastest by a long way. We're not the strongest by a long way. We don't have the best senses. But the one thing we do really, really well, our one trump card, is an ability to take in a landscape and understand the patterns and build a more interesting and meaningful picture from what we see than any other creature can. So every single organism, including every single tree, is full of meaning, which is another way of saying nothing is random. And if we just come around the side of this one, I'll be able to show you, hopefully, and this one will be a good one to... So a nice introduction to the idea that that nothing is random is that if you ask anybody to draw a tree, you'll get a symmetrical tree. Symmetrical trees, of course, don't exist. When we think about it, we know that. Every single tree appears as a unique individual, and that means that there's a reason for all the asymmetries and the differences we find. I mean, as we look at this one here, we can see it's not symmetrical. There's more tree on the left side as we look at it, pretty sort of, pretty clear asymmetry. So noticing that it's not symmetrical on its own is not fascinating. But knowing that we get most of our light from the southern side and that every tree is harvesting light, we put those two pieces together and that tree is clearly showing us that south is out this way.

Adam: Right. Is that true?

Tristan: *laughs* It is, it is, yeah. I'm pretty confident on that one.

Adam: Now, while a lot of the work of the Woodland Trust involves protecting what we have, a lot more is about creating new woodland in areas which didn't previously have it. And that's why I wanted to include this exciting podcast about a whole new landscape creation programme.

Well today's podcast is a bit of an unusual one because I'm off to an abandoned golf course in Cheshire overlooking Liverpool, not far away in fact, and the vision is to create this once golf course into a thriving mosaic of habitats, including lush broadland, woodland, grassland meadows and wooded glades dotted with wild flowers. Throughout the site, they're creating a network of grassy paths so people can walk through them and get far-reaching views of the Welsh borders, the Western Pennines and the Bowland Fells, along with, of course, Liverpool and the Mersey Estuary. And very excitingly, the man actually who's all the tree planting there is also in a band and it's his music and his band's music you can hear in the background. More about that a little later.

Tim: Imagine you've got an oak tree. And that throws down 40,000 acorns in usually every four years. So it doubles its weight above ground.

Adam: Sorry, 40,000 acorns?

Tim: 40,000. A mature oak, yeah.

Adam: It's worth pausing on that.

Tim: *laughs* I know, it's incredible isn't it.

Adam: A mature oak drops 40,000 acorns a year?

Tim: Every four years, roughly.

Adam: Because it doesn't do it every year, do they?

Tim: No. So, it has what they call a mast year, which is the year when everything's come together. It's usually based on the previous weather, weather conditions. So, that doubles the weight of the tree above ground, that throws all those acorns. Now you imagine they're gonna be a couple of centimetres apart on the ground. They're not all going to make it. What they're hoping is that something will take those away. So, a jay or a squirrel, they'll move those acorns away. Not all of them will get eaten. In fact, jays let the acorn germinate, and then they eat the remains. So, they wait to see where the oak tree comes up and then they come back and eat the remains of the cotyledon. So, you imagine if all those were going to germinate, there'd be a mass rush, and what they're waiting for is for the parent plant to die. And if that falls over, then they can all shoot up, but they're not all going to survive. So maybe only one, maybe two will survive out of those 40,000 if they're close to the tree. Now, what we're doing here is, imagine there's the parent plant, the parent plant's not here. We've already spaced these out by this distance already. So, we've given them a better chance.

Adam: Fantastic. Well, it's been a great day for me, a half day out here, and I'll definitely return. It's an amazing, amazing, positive place, isn't it? And the sun has shone on us, sort of metaphorical smile from above. Brilliant. Thank you very much.

Well from Liverpool, let's go back to the home of the Woodland Trust in Grantham, back to its CEO, Darren Moorcroft, for a final word from him.

Darren: I think my message for everyone as we enter into 2026 is think about the difference that you can make and how the Woodland Trust can help you. Now that might be providing a membership subscription to the organisation in order for us to underpin the work that we do. It may be taking advantage and being one of the 7,000 plus schools and communities that we saw in 2025 stepping up and asking for free trees to plant into their community. Or many other ways, but the real difference that you can make is to stand up for woods and trees and the conversations you have and the actions that you take, because we as an organisation are fighting for the health of people and the planet with every tree. And that means improving the lives of people where they live, improving the lives of nature where they live, and also making sure that we broaden and deepen the support that woods and trees get so that when people say should we protect that tree, the automatic answer is yes. Should we restore that woodland? The automatic answer is yes. And should we create more woods and trees? Absolutely, the answer is yes. So that would be my message to people going into 2026.

Adam: And so, if you can afford it and want to become a member of the Woodland Trust, they would very much like to have you join up and in fact, maybe give it as a gift this Christmas. But even if you can't afford it or don't want to, just by being the voice of nature, you will be one of its greatest friends. From all of us, to all of you, this year and next, can I wish you many happy wanderings.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

Dive into the inspiring story of Hall Farm Estate in Devon, a fairytale land once owned by Trust founder Ken Watkins. We meet current custodian, tenant farmer Seb, to discover how crucial conservation work is continuing here as the 300-acre farm integrates more trees into a regenerative farming system. As we walk through picturesque heathland and wood pasture on the edge of Dartmoor, Seb tells us of the ambitious plan to get an astonishing 20,000 new trees in the ground and how they'll benefit his cows and the local landscape. Full of enthusiasm and love for the land, he hopes the project will encourage more landowners to adopt tree‑rich, nature‑friendly approaches.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

We're supporting the sharing of farming activity at Hall Farm thanks to funding from Dartmoor's Dynamic Landscape, made possible with the National Lottery Heritage Fund and National Lottery players.

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, for this podcast we're going to Hall Farm Estate in Devon, which is very special. It once belonged to the Woodland Trust founder, Ken Watkins, and it's where he brought to life his vision to protect and restore nature, which is continuing today. Five decades later, that vision is still at the heart, really, of what the Woodland Trust does. Now, the farm I'm going to sits on the fringe of Dartmoor at Harford. It's made up of Gorage Waste, Hall Plantation, Kingswood, and Hall Farm. And there's a rich mix of habitats, it includes ancient and veteran trees, mature hedgerows, ancient woodland, and even, so unusual, not just in the UK, but of course in the world, it also includes temperate rainforest species. And what's going on at Hall Farm is particularly exciting, and I think it's fair to say ambitious as well, because in addition to continuing the conservation work that Ken Watkins started, it integrates woods and trees within regenerative farming. And so it's bringing together a proper commercial farm and a sense of looking after the land and the environment around you in a very particular way. I'm going to find out how that works and to meet the people doing it. If you want to know where Hall Farm Estate is, if you know what you're doing with maps, it is grid reference SX632592, map reference explorer 28, OS Land Ranger 202. Or you can just go to the Woodland Trust website and look up Hall Farm Estate. That's woodlandtrust.org.uk. Enough from me. Let's go to the farm.

Seb: Good morning. I'm Seb Powell and me and my partner Freya have just, well, six months ago taken on Hall Farm, the tenancy at Hall Farm. And we're going to show you around.

Adam: Brilliant. And we're starting at the, his is really lovely. There's old farm buildings over there. It's all super picturesque, much more picturesque than many of the farms I've been on.

Seb: Yeah, it's definitely a special place. I think, I mean, the first time I came here, I fell in love with it pretty much instantly. And I think it has that effect on most people. It's described as a fairytale land, I think, in a sort of historic book about Hall Farm. And why is that? I suppose it's just rich in natural character. There's these old walls, there's a beautiful lea, I think we'll walk past in a minute, so you've got this trickling sound of water in a lot of the parts of the farm. Lots of trees, obviously. And we're on the edge of the moor.

Adam: We're going to go for a walk, but we're starting with a map to explain where on earth we are, the sort of... the journey we're about to go on. So just talk me through what we're going to see here.

Seb: The map shows us, obviously, the farm, it's 300 acres of which about 80 acres are woodland and the rest is pasture. So it's an upland farm. And then we've just thought, well, how can we integrate all sorts of different types of tree planting? So on this map, we have an idea here, which is in one field called the dehesa, which is based on a Portuguese, Spanish, like cork oak, not plantation, but where livestock would basically live in amongst the woodland. So we're going to try and do that here. Not with cork oak, but with native oaks, but also walnut trees, for example.

Adam: Oh, look, is that a neighbour passing through?

Seb: That is actually, we've got an event here today, they're demonstrating the use of no fence collars. So yeah, part of the farm actually is we have quite a lot of sort of outreach stuff going on and it's great, it gets us involved with all the neighbours.

Adam: Brilliant. Okay, so that noise of that Land Rover is a bit of the outreach. Very good. Okay, so you've got... That's about, okay, that's a great place to start. I want to talk to you about that. So lead on to wherever we should go first.

Seb: Well, let's go, we're going to go down the hill a little bit. We're going to go to a place where trees have already been planted about 40 years ago. So when we were coming up with this map and the ideas of what we're going to do, we looked at what was here already and trees have already been incorporated here and we thought, well, we can learn from this. That's what we're going to do.

Adam: Lead on. So one of the special things about this farm is its use of something called silvopasture. So what is that?

Seb: Silvopasture, in essence, is integrating trees and livestock. So it's sort of bringing woodlands, where woodlands meet pasture, I suppose, and trying to integrate the two, merge the edges of where those blurred lines of woodland in theory can come into field and think of all sorts of ways how we can sort of recreate that.

Adam: Okay, so I'll hold on. So, okay, so what is the purpose of silvopasture? Is it just a charitable thing to get trees into the ground or is it a different type of farming? I don't quite understand the benefit.

Seb: Yeah, it really is a different type of farming where you incorporate trees into the farming system and then the trees will have benefit to the farming system or the livestock in the system. So in our case, we've got cattle and they will benefit in a dry, hot year from the shelter of the trees. And in the winter, if the cattle are outdoors, they will benefit from the, as you know, the trees acting as a windbreak.

Adam: Which sounds sort of obvious and easy. So why doesn't everyone do that? I mean, just a tree providing free shelter rather than having to take the cows into barns or something. It sounds like a cheap way of doing it. Why isn't everyone doing this if it's so straightforward?

Seb: Well, I think it's an old practice and most people know that, you know, we're in a modern time where we don't always use old practices anymore. So there's a bit of a revival of what in Devon used to be called the Devon Barn, which is basically just cattle up against the hedge. And we're just trying to revive that really and use it with a modern twist, incorporating trials of how trees could, you know new tree planting, not just traditional hedges, could be incorporated into fields in trees.

Adam: And how complex is it? I mean, the way you describe it sounds very simple. Look, we need some shelter. We'll chuck some trees in the ground and wait a few years and then there'll be shelter. Is it that simple or is there something more complex going on?

Seb: I think in essence, yeah, it is really simple. I mean, decide where you want the trees and plant them. The only complexity probably comes in is how long is it going to take for those trees to grow? Did you decide that where you planted them was actually the place you wanted them or are you going to go in five years and decide that you want them over there? And are they going to be eaten by anything? Are they going to survive? Is there going to be a drought? So there's challenges, but I think that's part of our sort of journey in a way, is also to learn from the process.

Adam: I want to ask you some more of that, but we've come to, not a puddle, I'd say this is a minor lake we've got to cross here! Okay, so there's a fence. So we're going to open the fence. Oh, are we going to climb across that?

Seb: Yeah there's a very cleverly perched...

Adam: Okay, right, we're crossing. Sorry, I'm just concentrating so I'm not talking or holding the microphone. We're crossing a sort of little stone bridge, which is very nice. I thought I was going to have to try and leap across that. Okay, so yes, we're talking about planting trees and everything. Is there any downside to it at all?

Seb: I think in the short term, if you look at it, you look at tree planting with like a conventional farmer's hat on, you're losing potentially productive land. So you've got to wait, you've got to offset that, you know, for maybe five or ten years, there's going to be less, this land is going to have less pasture. And we're going to accept that and realise that, but in 10 years' time, there's going to be these trees and they're going to offer all these benefits. Does that make sense?

Adam: Yeah, it does. Very good. Okay, we're through the... wettest part without opening to a much broader field. Is this one of your fields?

Seb: This is, yeah, this is Welsh Hill, and this is actually one of the first fields, or the first field, where we put the cattle into when we moved here, because there was some grass here. And the cattle, the first thing they did was, in fact, we let them into those woods, which are about 40 years old. And they went in for the shelter, because there was a howling easterly wind, and they started calving in there.

Adam: Wow, that's so the cows here are living outside all the time. Is that the idea?

Seb: Yeah, try and keep the cattle out for the whole year.

Adam: And the advantage of that is what?

Seb: Well, so having the cattle out all year, the main benefit to us is it simplifies the system. In a traditional farming system, you'd make hay or silage or whatever to feed the cattle when they're in the barns in the winter. You'd also have to bed them. And there's a whole process there involved that you're making hay and then you bring it in, then you're feeding it every day in winter, then you're mucking out the sheds, then you're spreading the muck. We've kind of turned it a little bit on its head, and this isn't a new practice, it's just a practice that's being revived. You could call it regenerative agriculture if you want. You could call it traditional farming, you could call it organic farming. But basically it's just a very low input approach which simplifies our life and means that the cattle actually also have a simplified life as well. They're outdoors doing what they want to be doing.

Adam: That sounds amazing. It just sounds so obvious to me. I'm just thinking it can't be that obvious because otherwise everyone would be doing that. And it sounds like your response to that is, well, people are just stuck in their ways. That's not how a lot of farmers behave because that's not how they behave, is it?

Seb: Yeah, very good question and possibly one I can't answer. All I know is that it's working for us and that we try and upsell our end product as best we can, so we're getting the most value we can for our milk and our beef, and reduced as much as we can the costs involved in producing those products. So outwintering the cattle, having the cattle grazing, having, you know, I quite often think of myself as a human muck spreader, but I'm not muck spreading, I'm just moving the cattle, if that make sense. Is it replicable? I don't see why it isn't. And there's more and more farms now that are realising that they could actually adapt this system with whatever numbers of cattle you have. And actually, weirdly, works better with higher stock numbers, believe it or not. So the concept of mob grazing, which you might have heard of, which is something we're using to graze our cattle, which is basically move them around in little mobs so that they put fertility into the soil in concentrated doses, and then they have the soil and the grassland has maximum rest period. It's basically replicating what happens in like the Savannah where like herds are, will they be wildebeest?

Adam: Yeah. Wildebeest in the Savannah, yeah, not in Devon, but in the Savannah, yeah.

Seb: That's what they're doing. And they are like having that sort of almost like slash and burn effect like happens in the Amazon of rejuvenating the soil and then giving it a rest. So we're just duplicating something that is a natural process.

Adam: Great. So, but you've not got any trees in this field. I can see a couple over there.

Seb: Yeah, interesting. So there's existing tree planting that's happened before us. So 200 years ago, maybe plus, where the temperate rainforest down in the valley along the River Erme has been buffered with trees. And we're going to basically do another tranche of buffering that woodland again, so doing our little bit to extend existing woodland around this farm.

Adam: And it's interesting, you said that the trees over there were pre-existing, but you said how long ago?

Seb: I think only 40 years ago.

Adam: Yeah, that's what I thought you said. I mean, I think often we think about forests and trees, I'll plant them now and it's always that old phrase, you know, you plant it there for your children, not you will never benefit from the shade. But these aren't small trees, these are huge trees. And that's grown in a few decades. That's surprising, isn't it?

Seb: Yeah, it's surprising and it's also quite topical in that I think the person who had the foresight to get those trees planted was Ken Watkins, who's founder of the Woodland Trust. So we can learn from what his vision was on this farm. He was like, I think trees might fit in the corner of this field. Little did he know that 40 years later, a farmer comes along and he's like, they're really useful and we're going to put our cattle in there. In the summer, I think it was August, the cattle were here and I actually came to check them and I couldn't see them anywhere. And initially they were all in the bottom of that barn. And the reason they were in the bottom of that barn was because it was a cool place. They'd all crammed into the bottom of the stone barn. But then I thought, well, why don't we let them into the trees? They don't have to be jammed in the bottom of a barn. So we cut open the fence of this 40-year-old tree planting and they went in.

Adam: And they don't damage the trees?

Seb: I mean, these are now established trees. You know, they're, what are we talking, they're like 12, 15, 20 metres high. If anything, they have, like the trampling effect they have in there is almost having a positive effect. The hooves will clear a bit of ground. In theory, then if we close that off, there would be some natural regeneration would happen. You know seeds could take in the areas that the cattle had disrupted the surface of the ground.

Adam: Okay, where to?

Seb: I think where we're going to go next is into a place called Blacklands Corner, which is at the bottom of a really beautiful bit of heathland. Quite wet.

Adam: Okay, I'm prepared for wet. Off we go. Okay, so we've come into what we were talking about, the wood pasture, which is lots of trees and some grass. So the cows come in here and graze amongst the trees. All very picturesque, isn't it? It's a beautiful part, I wish I had a proper, we were just saying, I wish I had a camera crew here, we could have made a beautiful video, so maybe next time. But it's a nice place to pause for a moment, just as the cows find it nice, I too find it nice to stop here. I'm just interested in how, your journey here. So were you always a farmer or were you always interested in this area? What brought you to this farm in Devon?

Seb: Good question. I was brought up on a farm. My dad was a farmer and then we left the farm. I loved everything about the farm and I followed my dad like, you know, like he was just everything he did was gold. And we left the farm when I was about 10 and I just always knew I wanted to farm. Skip forward 20 years, I did all sorts of other things, driving buses around Scotland and tourists around South America and having a great time and avoiding real life. And then I met my partner Freya and someone inadvertently said, you don't fancy milking cows? And I said, yes, that's the ticket. And then it all began eight years ago and we bought some cows and away we went.

Adam: That's a huge change from driving tourists around the Highlands of Scotland and Latin America to farming in Devon. What is the appeal of this lifestyle then for you?

Seb: I think, I mean, I've got a lot of nostalgic memories, I suppose, of growing up on a farm. I love the outdoors. I've always loved the outdoors. I like good food. Farming combines a lot of those things. It's loving the outdoors, like you're basically just, you're in the outdoors, so you're doing something really nice, feels wholesome. It's quite direct, what you're doing, you know, producing food whilst looking after a beautiful place. It just ticks a lot of boxes of things that I'm interested in, really.

Adam: One always hears it's a hard life being a farmer, is it?

Seb: Depends which day you ask a farmer on, I suppose. I think you can sometimes find yourself being a bit of a jack of all trades. So, one day you might be trying to work out your invoices or, the price of your yoghurt and the next day you're trying to work out where you're going to plant however many trees. I think yes and no. There's lots of amazing moments of beauty and then there's bits where you're like, God, what am I doing? Normally I start off at get the kids off, they're off at 7.30 to school, and I go off and get the cows and milk the cows. We only milk the cows once a day, so in theory, when you milk them, could be midday, could be six in the evening. So kind of the system we're designing is also one that's sustainable for our life, if that makes sense.

Adam: Okay, that also surprises me. You see, I'm a city boy, I used to present breakfast news and we had to start at 3.30 in the morning. And I always thought, me and the milk farmers, we're up at 3.30 in the morning, but that's not true. It's just breakfast news presenters who are starting that shift. So that's really interesting. So this farm is different and special because of its connection to the Woodland Trust. How did you get involved in the Woodland Trust and, not your farming journey, but what made you interested in the importance of trees?

Seb: I think I've always known that trees are important. They're a good thing. I was actually born in Finland and Finland is covered in trees. So whether it's like in my genetics, I don't know. But as we started farming, we soon started integrating trees as part of our farming. And now, being tenants of the Woodland Trust, we've got the full backing of all their, I suppose, knowledge and know-how and passion to support us in integrating more trees.

Adam: I mean, we never want to be too political, but we happen to be talking on the day that I hear the Conservative Party is perhaps thinking of dropping net zero targets for lots of reasons that they feel will be popular amongst a lot of people that are worried about cost of energy and the competitiveness of British industry. But I think it'd be worrying to a lot of the environmental movement. So I'm just interested in your view, not on that policy, but generally on how tuned in the nation is to the environmental message, do you think everyone's on board, there's still people to be brought over, or that it is a live debate? And you know, well, maybe planting trees everywhere isn't the right thing. I don't know. What's your view about this debate in the nation and what people feel about it?

Seb: Interesting. Definitely a political question, which I don't feel I'm very connected to, living out here in like a bit of a rural idyll. I'm also conscious that some of our customers are, it's quite a niche custom, you know, if you decide you want to eat good food and you're willing to pay a little bit more for it, that's already a decision or almost a liberty that you're able to do. Actually, just driving back to the farm yesterday, I was thinking that we're still reliant on fossil fuels, like we still use, you know, we've got our car we use to take the kids to school and we've got the pickup we use to take the cattle to slaughter. So there's always more we can do. I think we need to keep focused on those targets and maybe we need to raise the profile of what's currently going on to reach those targets. For example, what we're trying to do here, which is low input farming and tree planting.

Adam: Talking of which, whilst we're paused here, we've been talking a lot about planting trees and the importance of trees on farms like this. What's the scale of the plan here? I mean, how many trees are we talking about you planning on planting and the sort of timescale we're talking about?

Seb: So the plan we've got is take our 300 acre farm, I think a third of it will have trees, new trees on, in various different densities. So some will be really low density, like, you know, 25 trees in a small field. Others will be 1,000 stems per hectare, which is, if you're in old money per acre, that's like 2,500 trees per acre. It's quite a lot of trees. In total, I think it's 20,000 trees we're going to plant, is the plan, all going well over the next two years. So 10,000 trees a year.

Adam: Wow. That's not just you and Freya planting those, are you?

Seb: No, I'm hoping that all the Woodland Trust volunteers are going to come along and have a day out and anyone else who's interested.

Adam: I was going to say, because you should be busy planting, you shouldn't be talking to me, go get a shovel! Okay, that's a lot of trees. And the sorts of trees going into the ground here are what?

Seb: It's predominantly native trees. So we're wanting to recreate the trees that fit into this landscape, like, we're in the national park, so there's also like a visual, it's got to look aesthetically okay, but we can also play within that little bit with, I mean, something really interesting we've been looking at actually with the Woodland Trust is climate projections for 2080 and what temperature are we going to potentially be dealing with and what tree species might like it here. So we spoke earlier about this idea of the Spanish dehesa, which we've called now the Devon dehesa, which is, in theory could have a few cork oaks in there and in 2080 they might be doing just fine.

Adam: So actually you're planting trees really to anticipate climate change and which might do well in half a century's time or so. So that's really interesting. So sort of the Spanish cork oaks might go in here. And predominantly you've talked about native trees. What sort of trees are we talking about?

Seb: Yeah, so there'll be, I mean, we're looking here at oaks, hazels, what else have we got? There's a lot of beeches here, but I don't think we're planting too many beeches. Yeah, rowan, willow, wlder, alder.

Adam: Right. All of them. Rowan, my favourite, I think. Rowan, my favourite. Okay, very good. Where are we off to next?

Seb: I think we're going to go through this little heathland, which is again one of my, one of my favourite bits of the farm. We're going to pop out and we should see the cows, which...

Adam: Cows, of course. We've been talking about cows and I've not seen any. It could all be an elaborate con, that he hasn't got any cows, so we will have a look *laughs* I spy cows in a field. They're all sitting down. How long would they be in this field for before you rotate them?

Seb: This field, they'll probably be in, they went in Tuesday morning. Where are we, Thursday? I'll probably move them this afternoon or tomorrow morning.

Adam: So they're only two or three days in a field?

Seb: Yeah, and the rotation speeds up at different times of the year. So now the grass growth is slowing down. So the rotation will either, like, we either start excluding fields or we'll go faster and then totally stop. And then you'll see as we go into the next field, you'll see bits that we've made for hay and where we're going to graze in the winter, which will be rolling out bales of hay called bale grazing. A bit of a revolutionary practice.

Adam: Tell me about that, but I tell you what, strikes me is I know nothing about cows. Could you give me a one-minute primer? You're just closing the gate, hold on. Now, yes, what do I need to know about cows in a minute or so?

Seb: I can tell you about our cows?

Adam: Yes, yeah, your cows.

Seb: So we've got, what breed have we got? We've got Jersey crosses, which are like a New Zealand cross. So they did originally come from Jersey.

Adam: Jersey crosses?

Seb: Yeah.

Adam: I think they said Jersey clotted, like that's where clotted cream comes from, straight out the cow. Okay, Jersey crosses.

Seb: Kiwi crosses, you can call them as well. So they're bred predominantly in New Zealand on a place which is very wet and grows lots of grass. And that's all they do. So we've got Jerseys, we've got a Beef Shorthorn bull, which is a British breed. And so then we have these crosses, which we get a Jersey and a Beef Shorthorn cross, which is the little calf you're looking at here.

Adam: Right, so are there bulls as well? No, there won't be bulls in this.

Seb: The bull is with the milking herd, which is the other gang we'll go up and see in a minute. These are all the young stock, so these are all sort of 15 months old. There's younger calves, the smaller ones, which some of them have just been weaned. And there's a few beef suckler cows in here. So the big shorthorns, the big red cows in there, they've got their calves on them all the time.

Adam: And that's also different here, isn't it? Because often in large scale dairy farming, the calves get taken away from the mothers very early on. But you don't do that, do you?

Seb: Yeah, so that is a practice that actually Freya has like basically insisted we start with because she's a mother. We thought that it would have, yeah, it would go down well with some of our customers and it has done. We try and keep the calves on their mums. So we're basically sharing the milk up to three or four months. At three and a half months old, the calves are basically drinking all the milk. So then we go, all right, we're going to now sell some of that milk. But it's definitely better than, or we feel it's better than, weaning them at, you know, a day old and then having a whole other process of having to rear those calves on milk, which is a process. You need someone to do that. Whereas the cows are just producing milk anyway.

Adam: Interesting. And so again, ignorant question, but these are not bulls, they're cows, but they've got horns.

Seb: Yeah.

Adam: So it's not just bulls that have horns, cows have horns?

Seb: Cows can have horns, yeah. Again, another practice that we've thought we don't really feel we believe in or fits with what we're doing, de-horning cattle, we think they've got horns for a reason, like they grow, let's let them have them. We don't, we're not pushing our cattle in any way that they're stressed, so they're not coming to basically jab us with their horns. Touch wood!

Adam: I was going to say, it's interesting because I think quite recently I've started reading about how dangerous cows are and how people don't, they wander across fields and don't realise these are big animals and they can squash you and stuff. Is that something you have to be aware of when you're dealing with them?

Seb: I mean, I'm totally at one with these guys and they know me and I know them and yeah, I never had any issues. If you have to get them all into a little pen for some reason, like the one day the vet's here to do the TB test or something, that's a bit of an unusual situation. You're getting them in and it's not their normal sitting out in the field. They could be a bit edgy and you might not want to be in amongst them. So yeah, I think it's just, yeah, I mean, footpaths, that's quite often what comes up, isn't it that people are walking through fields of cows and the cows, if anything, are just curious, they're coming over and it's probably just daunting to have 10 big cows come to you. Your instinct is to run away. But more often than not, I think, cattle are pretty friendly, and if anything, they're scared of humans.

Adam: Well, personally, I think it's always better to be safe than sorry, and I'd advise people to be careful of cows. They are large animals, after all, but I know I'm a bit of a townie, so it's not my natural environment. Anyway, that all aside, what is happening here isn't just important in its own right, but as a sort of model for what others can do. So for those with land, those farmers interested in this kind of approach, what are the lessons that have been learned here that could apply elsewhere?

Seb: I suppose really just to be open-minded to some small changes, or big changes. I don't think there's any prescriptive size of change that counts as a valid change, you could plant an acre of trees and that's brilliant. You could plant 300 acres of trees and that's amazing. So, I mean, do whatever feels right for your farm or for your circumstance. Yeah, so the Woodland Trust are obviously our landlords here, so we have them on speed dial, but any farmer can go to the Woodland Trust for advice on tree planting. And it's great advice, I mean, I'd say hand on heart, even though you don't always speak totally openly about your landlords, like the advice they're giving us, you know, as outreach advisors is amazing and has given us basically the confidence to go and plant the 20,000 trees we've just basically signed up to plant and the what and the how and the where of how to do it.

Adam: Which is a lovely way of ending. And of course, the Woodland Trust website has tons of information you may find useful and it's a great organisation to be part of anyway. So, until next time, wherever you are, whatever you're doing, happy wandering.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

You might look at everyday items in a different light after this episode, as we hear best-selling author and Woodland Trust ambassador, Jonathan Drori CBE, reveal some of the fascinating things we make with plants. From the well-known coffee bean to the tree bark that's used in spacecraft, he shares some of the amazing relationships between familiar objects and the natural world as we meet beneath a beautiful beech tree on Parliament Hill in London.

These stories and more feature in Jonathan's latest book, The Stuff That Stuff Is Made Of, which aims to spark an interest in nature for younger readers. He explains how discovering the wonder of nature in a fun, exciting way as a child can inspire a lifelong connection, just as it did for him. We also discover why fruit is sweet, the value of the mandrake plant, how beech is thought to resist lightning and more.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust, presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Jonathan Drori CBE, is a man of many talents. He's a trustee of the Eden Project and of Kew Gardens, a member of the Royal Institution, a man who used to be a senior commissioning editor at the BBC, and he's also an ambassador for the Woodland Trust and a best-selling author of books such as Around the World in 80 Trees and his latest, The Stuff That Stuff Is Made Of, a book for younger people about the plants in their lives and the things they make which are all around them. And whereas these podcasts often take me on long journeys, this time, well, it's just a hop, skip and a jump away in London at Parliament Hill, where we met to talk about his book and the things we didn't know about the stuff around us all. Right, we are... it's a bit windy right here. It actually sounds windier than it is, but we are in Parliament Hill, or thereabouts, with Jonathan Drori, who has written the stuff that stuff is made of, and is also a big noise, essentially, in the Woodland Trust itself, of which we can talk lots about. But we're standing by a beech tree. So, Jonathan, why did you write this book?

Jonathan: I wanted to do something that would make kids kind of interested in the natural environment. Starting with the things they're interested in, which are kind of ice cream and chocolate and sport and dinosaurs and all that kind of thing. And use their own interests to sort of spark other interests in nature, in trees and plants, and also actually in history and folklore and culture, which are all sort of bound up with those things. One of the things I've tried to do with the book is to explain things from the plant's point of view as well as from a human point of view. So there are all these qualities that we desire plants for, whether that's sort of sweet things to eat or things to build with or things to make musical instruments out of. And they're all in the book and that's fine. But I've also tried to explain, you know, why has bamboo evolved in the way that it has? And why has a beech tree evolved the way it has? Why does chocolate have sweet mush around the seeds? You know, why do the grasses feed us? Why is sugar cane sweet? And why do we love it?

Adam: And so through this book, you're trying to attempt to do that by explaining stuff like tea and chocolate, indeed, where it comes from.

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, there are 30 different species that I deal with in the book. And on the right-hand side of the page, there's a whole lot of information about the way that the plant grows, how it's cultivated, the relationships that it has with other plants, with the little critters that might pollinate it or disperse the seeds. And on the left-hand side, there's a whole lot of stories about the plant, all kinds of kind of fascinating facts and really about the human relationships with that plant.

Adam: Do you think we have lost that connection with the plants around us. So that this sort of stuff might have been really obvious a few generations ago or not.

Jonathan: *laughs* A leading question, m'lud! Yes, I mean, you know, with urban living and things being in packets at the supermarket, you know, we perhaps don't think very much about where the basic materials for our existence come from, whether it's things we eat or things we build with or things that we just sort of like looking at and playing with.

Adam: Is it important to know those connections? I mean, you as someone who likes nature, I can understand why you might feel that's important. But is it important for us all to rebuild that connection?

Jonathan: I think that my love and interest in nature came from my parents, actually, at the time, dragging me around Kew Gardens and Richmond Park and telling me stories about the trees and plants that were growing there. And they did that in such a way that I would be interested because they knew who I was and so they found the things that would sort of excite me. And I think I want to do the same for young people so that they grow up with a kind of interest and admiration and some sort of understanding of nature. But you can't sort of ram it down people's throats. It needs to be fun.

Adam: Yeah. But why is that important? I understand that's what you want to do, but why is it important?

Jonathan: Well, we've only got one planet. And if we don't look after it, then, you know, our lives and livelihoods are doomed. So that's the sort of very basic reason. And also we are part of nature, so just, not having an understanding or rejecting nature is kind of rejecting part of ourselves, I think.

Adam: So it's a soft environmental message here. And that's also seems to me important because, well, from my perspective anyway, it feels like a lot of environmental charities and environmentally minded people push a sort of narrative, the world could end, it's all a disaster. And actually, I worry that, although it's well-meaning, it might turn people off. Now that isn't what you're doing with this.

Jonathan: No, there's none of that in the book, none of it at all. What I've tried to do is to excite people about the stories of pollination, of the little critters that live in and around plants, the relationships that the plants have with other plants and so on in the environment, and make that sort of exciting and fun and interesting enough that people will just say, say to themselves, that's kind of something that's worth protecting. Maybe they won't think that for 10 or 15 years.

Adam: There's lots of interesting stories here. I think the one that really struck me, I think, was about vanilla. So vanilla, obviously, people use it in cooking, they might use essence of it or whatever. But am I right in saying, you think it's in the book, you actually go, there was a boy, and you name this boy... oh sorry is that a bird I can hear? *laughs* sorry!

Jonathan: It's the parakeets.

Adam: Oh it's the parakeets, I thought there was a squeaky wheel behind me! No no. All right, parakeets in the background. A named boy who taught the world how to pollinate vanilla. Tell me that story.

Jonathan: Yes, it was an amazing story actually about vanilla that in about the sort of 1840s, when they brought vanilla plants over from Mexico where they were native, to Africa where they wanted the plantations to grow and the little bee that pollinates vanilla didn't really travel. And so they had to find something else that would pollinate the vanilla plants so that the vanilla plants would propagate and grow. And sadly, they couldn't find any insect that would do that. No local insects would do this in Africa or outside Mexico. So all the vanilla plants had to be pollinated by hand. And it was a 12-year-old boy, Edmond Albius, who worked out how to do this. And by basically sort of cutting a bit of membrane and then squidging the two bits together and right to this present day, that's the way that vanilla is pollinated, by hand. And that's why it's so expensive.

Adam: It's amazing, isn't it? Apart from the vanilla story, do any others stand out in your mind? Is there ones your favourites?

Jonathan: Oh, it's like asking your favourite children, isn't it? I mean, there are all sorts of things in there that I notice when I talk to young people, to sort of eight, nine-year-olds, they sort of come alive. Those who've read the Hogwarts stories and Harry Potter, they're amazed to discover that mandrake is actually a real plant. And of course, mandrake used to be very, very valuable because it was one of the very few plants that could be used as an anaesthetic. And people used to, back in the Roman days, they used to mix it with wine and then sort of do minor operations and things. Don't try this at home! It's actually a real plant. It grows somewhat, I've seen this in this country, but it grows in Italy quite well and it has these rather sort of mind-altering attributes to it, which are a bit odd.

Adam: So it might be used by people who want that sort of druggy effect, but does it have any other purpose?

Jonathan: Well, not now, but it was an anaesthetic, and anaesthetics were so sort of unlikely, you know, if you think about it, you take something and it makes the pain go away, that people associated the plant with witchcraft, especially as it gave you the impression of flying. And so a plant that could alter your outlook and the way that you see the world so profoundly, and the way you perceive it so profoundly, was associated with witchcraft. And people made all sorts of stories about the mandrakes that they, that when you pulled it out of the ground, they said, that you could hear it scream because sometimes the roots look a bit like a person, especially with a bit of judicious whittling. And so people would say you've got to get a dog, tie the dog to the mandrake root and then kick the dog or throw it some food and it pulls it out. And the scream, they said, of a mandrake root could make you, could kill you.

Adam: And weren't they doing that to stop people, scaring people away from getting their valuable mandrake?

Jonathan: That's right. It was such a valuable plant that the ideal thing to do would be to put these superstitions around, these notions around, so people wouldn't pull them out, because it's very valuable.

Adam: Hippy dragon sort of thing. Well, look, we are here in London, a park in London, a beautiful park. But you've taken me to one of the few trees that actually appears in the book, because so many of the, well, I think almost all the trees really, you wouldn't find in the UK, is that right?

Jonathan: Well, you can certainly find eucalyptus. You can, you know, it's not a native, but you can find them here. And any other trees that are in there, you'd certainly find in botanic gardens. And there are fir trees, Christmas trees in there as well. But here we are by a lovely, lovely beech. And I mean, there are lots of reasons I love beech trees. In the book, one of the reasons that it's in there is because beech wood is made for, is used for veneer and it's used for making furniture and so on in a sustainable way, so it's a very pleasing wood.

Adam: And why is it good for furniture then?

Jonathan: It's stable, it doesn't shrink too much.

Adam: Is it bendable, is it one of those trees that you can...

Jonathan: Yeah and you can sort of use steam to bend it into the shapes that you want. And there are these fantastic machines that make veneer by sort of peeling off a kind of onion ring, rotating the trunk and then sort of peeling off the wood underneath to make veneer. As I say, using sustainable beech forests. But one of the things that I love about the beech is the link with superstition because in Germany, and actually in quite a few countries in Europe, there's this saying that lightning never strikes a beech tree. And in actual fact, lightning strikes beech trees just as often as any other trees that are of similar height. But beech trees seem to survive. And the reason they survive is because of this wonderfully smooth bark. The bark continually renews itself, unlike other trees. And so you've got a layer that is sloughing off all the time and leaving this very smooth bark. And that smoothness means that during wet weather, during a storm, the outside of the tree has a continuous film of water on it. It's wet all the way and that can act as a lightning conductor, whereas the craggy old oak, that has dry bits in it and so the electricity from a lightning strike is diverted through the middle of the tree and would blow it asunder. So the beech tree can survive.

Adam: Fantastic. Talking about the bark on the tree, one of the other things I spotted in your book was, I think it's cork trees and how the bark of that is special in the way we use it, but also in the way that the tree regenerates, just explain a bit about that.

Jonathan: Yes, I mean, most trees, if you sort of cut a whole ring around the tree, it'll die. But cork actually regenerates itself. So you can harvest the cork every 10, 12 years or so. And cork forests in the Iberian Peninsula, in Portugal and in Spain have a fantastic sort of ecosystem around them. The lynx and wild eagles and all sorts of wonderful things that live in and around. And also pigs go rooting for the for the acorns. And that ecosystem is a very important one. And it depends on us all using cork. So don't use plastic cork.

Adam: Right. Oh, I was going to say, unfortunately, a lot of wines now have plastic.

Jonathan: Try and go to the ones which are made out of proper traditional cork. And you're doing the planet a service by doing that. Another interesting thing about cork is that it's a fantastic insulator and it's actually used in the nose cones of spacecraft.

Adam: So why? That is, I did read that and that was extraordinary that something as advanced as a spacecraft would be using cork. It seems unbelievable.

Jonathan: Well, you know, millions of years of evolution have given the cork oak this way of resisting fire. So it's got tiny, tiny air pockets, minuscule microscopic air pockets in a non-flammable kind of medium. And that is an amazing insulator. And it's light, it chars on the outside and then flames just can't get through.

Adam: And it's soundproofing isn't it?

Jonathan: Yes, it's used in recording studios.

Adam: Yes. Well, when I was 17, I took a fancy to corking my whole bedroom in cork tiles, which looked terrible to be honest *laughs*. It took my father years to pry it off the wall again.

Jonathan: Was that in the seventies perhaps?

Adam: Yes exactly. It was trendy then for a short period.

Jonathan: Roman women used to wear cork-soled sandals, which you can still get, but so they didn't sort of walk in the poo and whatnot. But they're very good, very light, very insulating.

Adam: One of the ones I suppose we should talk about, interesting, is cotton, because it has an interesting background, a natural background, but also one, of course, deeply connected with slavery and everything.

Jonathan: So, you know, it was used in... South America among the Aztecs and so on to make armour actually. They made very, very thick cotton twill that they used as armour. And then it became fabulously valuable in the sort of 17th, 18th century especially, as a textile for our clothing. And unfortunately, as you say, it's got this link with slavery along with sugarcane and tobacco, these were the big crops that people grew, slave owners grew, in the Caribbean and in the southern states of North America, and then made the finished products in Britain that were then sold all over the world.

Adam: And I mean, you have some nice, lovely illustrations here of actually the cotton on the plant and it's a puffball. It doesn't look real, actually.

Jonathan: It's bonkers! It's an absolutely bonkers plant.

Adam: Yes but didn't people, when they first saw it, thought they were actually little sheep or something?

Jonathan: Yes *laughs* Well, the writers of the time, you know, they were all sort of knew that they would get a big audience if they made up some stuff so I'm not sure whether they really believed it. But certainly there was a textbook of the, I think it was the 17th century or early or late 16th century, where they sort of wrote, had diagrams of, because they thought it must be some kind of wool, they had diagrams showing little tiny sheep at the end of twigs on the plant *laughs* which supposedly would, you know, sort of the twigs would reach the ground in the evening and then the little sheep would, I don't know, wander off or something.

Adam: No one actually ever believed this, you're saying?

Jonathan: Well, I mean, no, well, I think it was created as a spin, but I think a lot of people did believe it, actually, in the same way that they believed in sea monsters and all those sort of naval stories that were brought back. And it was a very, yes, people believed all sorts of kind of nonsense and about where cotton came from. But the plant itself is very real and quite an odd one because you have these lovely sort of pale creamy flowers. It's sort of quite big, the size of a walnut kind of thing, you know. And then you get the seed pod which is absolutely bursting with all the fibre inside and the fibre's there to help the seeds carry on the wind. That's what the plant wants it for. But these burst open with this sort of great wodge of, I suppose, it looks like cotton wool. And it pretty much is cotton wool. And then the seeds are removed in a process called ginning. And the fibre that's left is then spun into thread.

Adam: Amazing story. The last one I suppose I really want to talk about is something you started with saying, you know, engaging younger people in things they know like chocolate. Chocolate doesn't come from Tesco or Sainsbury's, it comes from the cacao plant. Now, tell me a bit about that, but specifically what surprised me, if I remember this correctly, you said the chocolate we know was invented in England, is that right?

Jonathan: Well, the chocolate bar was invented by Fry back in the middle of the 19th century. And before that, people would have chocolate drinks, which were quite popular, especially at the time when coffee houses were very sort of blokey places.

Adam: This is about the 1800s, is it?

Jonathan: Yeah. Coffee houses were places where, you know, men would go.

Adam: Yeah, they were they were risky places, they were sort of like pubs almost, you know, like...

Jonathan: Yes, whereas families and women would go to chocolate houses. And some of those chocolate houses then became, you know, well-known clubs in London around Pall Mall and so on. They, but chocolate originally from Central America was a drink that would be taken quite bitter, mixed with maize, very, very nourishing, and was sometimes coloured with red dye, sort of symbolizing blood. And it was part of kind of rituals that they had where they, some of them were quite unpleasant rituals actually and then when it came, when chocolate came through the Spanish to Europe in the sort of 16th century, people immediately started adding sugar and milk and things to it, made it a lot more palatable.

Adam: Right. So it wasn't just the chocolate bar, so we really made it into the sweet drink that everyone knows. Maybe not England, but Europe.

Jonathan: Yes, and the and the chocolate bar was, that started in Britain. That was a British thing, with Fry and I think you can still get Frys chocolate?

Adam: Yeah, I was going to say, I do see it every now and then. It's not as popular as Cadbury's and all the others, but one does still see it.

Jonathan: You know, if you think about it from the plant's point of view, the reason that it's got this amazing fruit, which is about the size of a junior rugby ball, that grows very peculiarly on the stem of the plant, on the tree trunk, the reason it's got this amazing fruit is so that it can find something to be attracted to it that will disperse the seeds. That's why fruit is sweet. And the original thing that dispersed these fruit were probably sort of large, large mammals, which may not be around anymore. But the fruit is, the seeds are in this sort of sweet mush inside the cocoa pod. But your sort of big mammal would come along and gulp the whole thing down because it's lovely and sweet and then poo out the seeds somewhere else or spit them out because the seeds themselves are very bitter. And with coffee and chocolate and quite a few other things like apples even, the seeds are very bitter but the actual fruit is lovely and sweet. And the reason for that is so that something gobbles it but doesn't chew up the seeds. And then those get either spat out or pooed out together with a bit of fertiliser.

Adam: Right, amazing. And also, I mean, we've talked a bit about the social aspects of a lot of these plants. Chocolate itself had a huge social impact, wasn't it? It was seen as sort of an alternative, wasn't it, to alcohol and sort of bringing people into the fold of the righteous living and away from terrible drinks.

Jonathan: Yes, yeah, and it's a much gentler drink than coffee, which would have been quite a strong stimulant. Chocolate also has stimulants in it, but it's a bit more gentle. Yeah.

Adam: So it's an interesting book. I know this is part of something very important in your life about reconnecting with nature and spreading that message. Are you optimistic that things are looking up in that way, that people are engaging more?

Jonathan: I think, you know, I could make an argument for being pessimistic or optimistic, depending on the day, actually. But I do notice that young people have a kind of care for the environment that seems to be growing. And I think that's for obvious reasons, that they see it as their future. I'd say, essentially, I'm an optimist. And when you see plants growing and think about, the fact that they've been growing for zillions of years and will be growing for zillions of years, that is a sort of kind of optimistic thing. I think that young people are much more caring of the environment and sort of interested or I would say open to being interested. So if you kind of open their eyes to things, they're genuinely keen to know more and to do something. So all these schools projects that there are, all these things that the Woodland Trust actually does with schools are very, very valuable because I think with a lot of young people it just needs a little bit of a nudge and they're quite willing to go in a good direction.

Adam: That's a great note to end on and we've, I was worried this morning it looked like it would pour down but we've been spared that. So Jon, thank you very much.

Jonathan: Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us and do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite woodland walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of 5 minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special. Or send us an e-mail with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to [email protected] and we look forward to hearing from you.

Join us at Bradgate Park in Leicester with Jules Acton, author, former podcast guest and Trust ambassador, while our regular host Adam enjoys a summer holiday. We meet senior park ranger Matt who gives us a tour as he explains his role in caring for the site and its amazing trees. We've come to the park to see one in particular: a magnificent 830-year-old oak. It's in the running for Tree of the Year 2025. This year's contest celebrates our cultural connections with trees, shining a light on those that are local landmarks, sources of passion, inspiration and creativity. Find out what makes Bradgate Park's oldest oak special and vote for your favourite by 19 September.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Jules: Good morning. I'm Jules Acton. I'm an ambassador for the Woodland Trust. I've been in this job for 10 years this month and it's been a fantastic 10 years. I've loved every day because I get to meet some amazing trees and woods and even more than that, I also get to meet lots of amazing people who love trees and woods and who are inspired by them. So Woodland Trust members, other supporters, staff and volunteers. And I think one of the reasons people love trees so much is not just for the fact they provide all the wonderful services they they store our carbon, they provide fresh air, they can help filter pollution. But they're also absolutely entwined in our culture. And that's been taking place over hundreds and thousands of years. So our, particularly our native tree species tree species are absolutely embedded in our culture, and every old tree has a story to tell. Now, the reason we're here today is that we're going to talk about Tree of the Year and the theme of the Tree of the Year is culture and the way trees are embedded in culture. Ten magnificent trees have been chosen by a panel of experts. Each has a wonderful story to tell, and members of the public can go and vote for their favourite tree on the Woodland Trust website.

We are here in Bradgate Park car park. It is a golden morning and we're surrounded by trees. I can see oak trees, hawthorns, birches, hazels. It's absolutely gorgeous with the dappled sunlight falling down on us through the leaves. We're here to meet a particularly special tree. It's Bradgate Park's oldest oak tree, and it's about 20 minutes walk from the car park. So I see my colleague Natasha. She's over there waiting at the edge of the car park, waiting for Matt. Hello Natasha.

Natasha: Hello. Ohh hi!

Jules: Can you tell us a bit about your role, Natasha and what you do at the Woodland Trust?

Natasha: Yeah, I'm a social media officer, so I just help create and schedule all social media content, jump on whenever there's an opportunity like today.

Jules: And today you're going to be helping with the recording.

Natasha: Yeah, getting a few clips behind the scenes of how we record the podcast so we can share that and a few bits for our website as well and YouTube.

Jules: Thanks Natasha. Now I think we have just seen somebody drive up who might well be Matt. He's he's appeared in a very groovy looking buggy. And here we go. I believe this is Matt. Hello.

Matt: Good morning, Jules.

Jules: Hello, Matt, hi, lovely to meet you.

Matt: Nice to meet you. Welcome to Bradgate Park.

Jules: Thank you. Can you tell us a little bit about your role, Matt?

Matt: So yeah so I've I've worked at Bradgate Park for just over 20 years now and main sort of roles on on the site are woodland management and caring for the ancient trees that we've got that that are of European importance. And I also get quite involved with the drystone walls and repairing them. I lead a a group of volunteers on a Thursday and as we go across the site, I'm sure I can show you some of the work that we've been doing.

Jules: Oh brilliant, and you're going to particularly show us a very special tree, I believe.

Matt: Yes, I believe we might be able to find that. Yeah, the tree is approximately 830 years old. It predates the Magna Carta and I'd certainly like to take you to the tree and tell you a bit more about it.

Jules: All right. We're just getting ready to go and all around us are people enjoying the park, there are some people walking up hills. There are lots of dogs. There's one very cute little brown dog that's having a little dip in, in a little stream, a little brook, really at the edge of the park and it's already quite a warm day, so I think it's having a nice little cool down.

We're back en route towards the special tree with the beautiful drystone wall to our right and across to the left are, well there's a tree, there's a plantation, and then there's also a sort of a bit of a wood pasture environment would you call it Matt, with some native trees dotted around in the landscape?

Matt: Yeah, very much so. So this is Hallgates Valley. We're looking across to Dale Spinney. The park itself is 830 acres, of which spinneys represent about 10% of the parkland area, so it's quite a large proportion. All the spinneys were planted on the, on the hilltops across the park, that's that's not just by chance. And they were created around about 1830s-40s by the 6th early of Stamford and and now we see the spinneys that we've got here today so you've got quite a mature, mature standard trees. Quite a lot are softwood, but then we've got a mixture of hardwoods in there. We certainly replant hardwoods in the spinneys.

Jules: How would you define a spinney as opposed to, you know, other kinds of woods?

Matt: Nice easy question *laughs*. I would I would say you've obviously got different names of woodlands and you know we're, we're, we're in Charnwood Forest, but a a forest isn't just trees, it's clearings. And I would say a copse is a small woodland. I would say the spinney is is probably like slightly larger than that and then you go up towards a wood. I could be totally wrong! *both laugh*

Jules: I like it though. So Matt you say, you've you've been here 20 years.

Matt: Yeah, 22.

Jules: 22. So you obviously love it. And what is it that keeps you here?

Matt: I was born in Leicester and came here as a young child playing and you know to end up working here as a job, it's certainly a nice place to be coming to and huge, beautiful surroundings, fresh air and and then I've I've just got a real passion for particularly the a lot of the heritage crafts that we keep alive on the estate. So yes, we go down and we manage the woodlands, but we're actually carrying out coppicing operations and that, they go back to the Stone Age and and then other work on the site for instance drystone walling, which we're approaching a gap now that we've been repairing and is obviously another heritage craft, and for me, I I just think it's really important that we're passing on these skills, heritage crafts on to the next sort of generation.

Jules: That that's brilliant. And do you do you train sort of volunteers or or is it staff members in in this kind of thing?

Matt: I've trained up to Level 2 in walling. That's something I I went up to Derbyshire to do. We've actually got another chap on site now, Leon. He's, he was in the armed forces and and and Leon is doing his levels in walling as well. I believe he's already got Level 1 and 2. He's working towards his 3, we might be able to pop and see him in a bit, but I guess the focus should be trees today *laughs*.

Jules: Yeah, well if we have time, that'd be great. See how we go.

Matt: This is certainly a large gap of wall that we've been doing on the estate. We've got 17 miles of drystone wall to maintain. The deer park itself goes back to 1241, but it's, the boundaries changed slightly over over the years and the largest extent of the deer park was probably around about 1550 and that would have, certain parts of the boundary are drystone wall and and that's obviously what what we're left with today and we need to maintain that. Not only does it keep the deer inside the park, which is obviously beneficial for a deer park, it's fantastic habitat for various, you know, sort of reptiles to live in and adders, grass snakes, things like that.

Jules: Fantastic, so we're looking at at one of the drystone walls and it's I'd say about shoulder height, would you say and it's a grey sort of almost sort of slaty looking stone actually, do you, can you tell us what kind of the stone it is?

Matt: Yeah so on on this side of the park, it's it's it's it's a little bit more slaty towards Newtown Linford, that's that's more of a granite, the walling that we do on the, that we we do on the park is is called random coursed walling. So yes, as we build the wall up, you start with the larger stones at the bottom and as the as the wall tapers up, it angles in, that's called the batter of the wall, you can see the frame we've got and that that we're working to, we've got the building lines in. So this one is 80 centimetres at the bottom, tapering up to 40 centimetres at the top. Originally this was actually a lime mortar wall and a lot of walls on the park are lime mortar, but it is possible to rebuild dry, but we do a mix a mixture of both on the estate.

Jules: That's great and it's just lovely to see these heritage practices being kept alive and you mentioned the coppicing as well, which is absolutely very much part of woodland culture going back centuries. I believe it goes back to the Vikings, maybe even earlier, I don't know if you know anything about the history of it, Matt?

Matt: Yeah, well, certainly the Stone Age coppicing going back, going back to the Stone Age, it's the process of cutting the tree down to ground level. Not all trees will coppice, certainly oak will. That's where Copt Oak gets the name from, coppiced oak. Hazel is the primary tree species that we are coppicing, certainly in Swithland Woods and we've got a management plan in place. We've we've just come to the end of a 10-year management plan that was supported by, there's a lady called Liz Sharkey who comes up with a great plan for us. We're just starting in, in November will be the next 10-year plan and the intention of that is to create the most diverse habitat that Swithland Woods is and it will create a mosaic of habitats, different age stands within the structure of the woodland and and part of that will be coppicing rotation and that will open up and the the the floor of the woodland, let light in and that will benefit bluebells and wood anemone and all the related bird species and invertebrates.

Jules: This is all music to our Woodland Trust ears. Thank you, Matt. Shall we continue on our little tour?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I will turn this very loud... *banging*

Jules: *laughs* I'm not actually sure how to get out the car, but ohh, OK, yeah, yeah. Natasha's on it. Thanks Natasha. OK, so we are walking up to not the tree we're here to see, but we couldn't resist this one because it's really special and it's a gnarly oak tree, kind of growing out of what looks like a big craggy load of rocks. Yeah, Matt, could you tell us a bit more about this tree?

Matt: Yes, I can. So it's English oak and some of the, it's growing out of granite and some of the rocks on the park are actually some of the oldest rocks, certainly in Britain and and the world, 560-million-year-old rocks that we've got on the park and it's all part part of the designation, actually, of the park, it's a SSSI, geological interest in the park and also the veteran trees are also part of that designation and we have just become a National Nature Reserve as well, Bradgate Park.

Jules: Well, congratulations! Could you just explain the SSSI to us just so people understand what the abbreviation means?

Matt: It's a Site of Special Scientific Interest, so there's many layers to Bradgate Park, people might just want to come have a nice walk, enjoy the views, and people that might be more interested in the geology of the park, so we get a lot of people that are coming out and looking at the rocks and looking for fossils and they're able to from that age, the rocks on the park and then other designations that we've got are related to the ancient trees and and that all forms a a bigger picture that makes the park so important that it has to be protected.

Jules: Fantastic. And one of the things that I've just noticed on both this very old oak tree and also on the rocks are, there's a lot of lichens. They're gorgeous. So they're sort of just splattered with them, some of them just look like, like, little sort of paint splats, don't they? They are different colours, we've got white ones, green ones on the rocks, I'm looking at, sort of greyish ones. Some are crusty, some are very flat, which is I think the nature of lichens. Do you know much about the lichens?

Matt: I certainly know that we need to keep the lichens exposed to the sunlight, so we have to clear bracken so they're not getting shaded out. They take a long time to form and I certainly know that they need good clean air. So that is a good sign, if you're seeing lichens, you're in a good place as a human being.

Jules: Yeah, absolutely. And and one of the things about oak trees as well is because they, they're long-lived trees, they provide particularly important habitat for lichens, cause some, many lichens are really, really slow growing, so they need a very slow, you know, stable habitat, so whether it be the rocks or or the very old tree and you'll get different species associated with the different environments as well.

Matt: Yeah, exactly right. And and you can see as well as the being lichens on the rock, you look up into the oak tree and in to the, up the, into the crown of the tree and we are seeing lichens on on the oak tree.

Jules: Yeah. Aed one of the other things about lichens is that they are also embedded in our culture as well, so we use them to to make dyes, some people cook with them, so again, a bit like bit like the oak trees and and other native trees, they're really entwined in our cultural history. This isn't the tree we're here to see, but it's absolutely marvellous! So I, gosh, I hope this becomes, goes on the Tree of the Year shortlist at some point because it deserves it!

Matt: Well, it's nice to have more than one entry.

Jules: Yeah, that would be good, wouldn't it?

Matt: I guess it would in in increase the chances of winning, but seeing as it's the first time you've come to the park, Jules, I thought you may as well see this.

Jules: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it. It looks quite elephantine from this, elephantine I should say, from this angle with this sort of like this great, long limb sticking out, it's almost like a trunk isn't it and up into the into the blue.

Matt: It certainly is, and I think that's certainly going to be the word of the day. I'm not, I'm not certainly going to try and trump that!

Jules: OK, yeah, let's, let's, let's try and use it again, in the next stop! *both laugh* OK. We're going back to the car now the the buggy, the T, TVA. No, the, what is it?

Matt: The ATV *both laugh* As we go back towards the ATV, we can see a absolutely stunning tower on a hill. It's gorgeous. It's kind of like, well it looks like it's in a fairytale to me. Could you tell us a bit about that?

Matt: So Old John Tower was, they started building it 1784 and and it is a folly and it was somewhere that the Greys, the owners, the Earls of Stamford could entertain guests and around the base of the tower, the rear is the remnants of an old racetrack, at the side of the tower, there's an old stable block and the Greys were certainly great horse fanciers and they entered racehorses into various events and along the the the old racetrack there's still remnants of old furlong markers and they were able to entertain the guests, stand up on the the roof of the of the tower and get an idea of of how good the how well the horses were performing.

Jules: Brilliant. And and the the Greys being the family of Lady Jane Grey, is that right?

Matt: Yes, that's right yeah.

Jules: OK. So it's it's absolutely stunning. It looks like the sort of, yeah, if you're drawing a scene in a fairytale, you'd be drawing a little turrety round tower on top of a hill, wouldn't you? And there'd be probably Rapunzel at the top, letting down her hair. On this occasion we've got a, on this occasion we've got a a very fit looking person who's just run a ring around the bottom of the tower and is now running towards us, obviously making use of this wonderful environment to to keep up their fantastic fitness. Right. OK. Now we are going back to the vehicle. And I think is next stop the the tree, our destination?

Matt: Yes it certainly is.

Jules: OK, OK, brilliant. I think I've actually worked out how to get in this time, which is ohh no, Matt's letting me in, thank you, what a gent, thank you. Right, we are now out of the vehicle and we are walking towards the special tree. And how long, how much of a walk is it from here?

Matt: So I can see it already and I'd say we're only about 200 yards away from it.

Jules: *laughs* Ohh, I still haven't seen it!

Matt: I'm I'm I'm deliberately walking in a way that it's going to appear.

Jules: Oh he's hiding it from us.

Matt: Yeah. There we go, fallow deer.

Jules: Ohh, there's ohh my goodness two fallow deer. The beautiful spotty backs, sort of trotting away. And then they've stopped and have given, they're looking at us. They're not too shy, actually are they?

Matt: No, no, they're not.

Jules: They look just like double Bambi. They're very beautiful.

Matt: You'll you'll you'll notice on all the trees, and there's about a dozen smaller oak trees that we planted, and these are about 30 years old now. Again, you can see how we've we've literally topped the smaller trees and and that's because we don't want to leave these trees just to get huge a. and maidens and straight and tall. So we want these to be stunted and more open grown. And so we've cut the tops off and and thinned them slightly. And then, again, we're hoping that that will make them longer lived.

Jules: Yeah, yeah. And of course, the oak trees love a lot of light, don't they? And these have got quite a lot of light and space around them.

Matt: Yes.

Jules: Ohh, I can see it now. Oh my goodness. What a beast. How fantastic. So it does, so it's the Bradgate Park's oldest oak, isn't it, so does it have a name, another name beyond that?

Matt: I think people people give it various names but it's just 'the oldest tree in the park' *laughs*

Jules: Yeah, yeah.

Matt: Trying, I suppose for many years we've tried to keep it a bit bit sort of secret. That's probably for the benefit of the tree and certainly, the fact that it's within a spinney, people aren't walking up to it, and that's helped the tree. I feel that it's in a, it's obviously found some good growing conditions and despite the general habitat of the park being poor, upland soil, shallow, it's found some incredible growing conditions here it's been sheltered so that it's not being exposed to too much, too much wind force. And also it's it's nice and open so as the, as you know sort of from midday to right through into the evening, it's gonna get plenty of light as well. So there's I think there's been a number of factors that have certainly helped to prolong the life of the tree.

Jules: Yes, absolutely. Wow, it is a stunner. So just to try and describe this tree, it it's immensely tall. It's probably about the size of a, what about the height of a house would you say?

Matt: Yeah it's a good, good 45 feet.

Jules: Yeah. And it's got a very gnarly bole. I call it a bole rather than a trunk because it's really big, broad, and it's kind of split into two, kind of more than two. And it's got some dead branches coming out the middle. It's got one gorgeous, great, long, twisted limb reaching out. And it's that that's they're they're propped up, but it's kind of snaking, isn't it, ooh, it's elephantine that's what it is! Yeah, let's use our favourite word of the day.

Matt: I'd I'd say it's definitely elephantine *both laugh*

Jules: Yeah. And you can see kind of, it looks like there's faces everywhere, aren't there? It's like in that they've dead bit of branch there, you can see like a sort of twisted sort of face and a great long nose. And ohh it's, what a beautiful beast. So Matt, could you tell us a bit about its cultural connection to human beings?

Matt: Well, it certainly, it it was aged back in 2014 by a tree consultancy called Bosky and we we obtained a grant funding to tag and map many, many trees across the estate of this, being one of them, and it was it was aged at 818 back then, which puts us at around about the 830 mark now. In terms of relations to humans, it predates the Magna Carta and one of the most notable former residents of Bradgate Park obviously being Lady Jane, when she was a child living on the park, the tree would have already been quite a mighty oak of about 300 years.

Jules: Gosh, so, so Lady Jane Grey would have known this tree.

Matt: Yes, yeah.

Jules: She would probably sat underneath it.

Matt: Which is somewhat remarkable.

Jules: Yeah. Maybe had a little picnic under here. *Matt laughs* That's what I would have done. Fantastic. And it's wonderful that you're protecting it and actually, despite this sort of really craggy bole, it's it's looking in pretty good health, isn't it, it's got loads of leaves all around. Are you feeling sort of confident about its its future given given how it is?

Matt: Well, certainly, yeah you you've you've pointed out the props and these props have been in place supporting certainly this this limb. If we walk around the other side of the tree, you can you can get a bit more of an impression as to what the props are actually achieving for the tree and in due course, and I believe we'll we'll probably upgrade these props, which are basically telegraph posts with Land Rover tyres that have been cut, which is certainly an effective way of doing things, but we have evolved the propping techniques that are now, you can see the tree in the distance over there by the compound that's called the Pheasant Garden. And there's a there's an oak tree there that supported by a prop and that is manufactured using metal, sort of steel work and then there's a cup section that's manufactured and then that that's a more sympathetic way of actually supporting that bough.

Jules: Yeah, yes.

Matt: Regarding, you know the actual cover of the foliage, like you say, totally agree that it's it's still got reasonable foliage cover, certainly certain things that we do have to watch out for is shade. And that is partly why we've cut the tops off the trees around it. But also you can see where we've got a bit of interference here with this Scots pine at the back.

Jules: Oh yes, it's actually actually touching I think, almost touching.

Matt: So that is something that we would look to keep keep in check. So this Scots pine, as as lovely as it is, that Scots pine is more like 70 years old, and we wouldn't want that to be shading out so that's something we'll we'll probably climb up there and just cut that, cut the limb off off the Scots pine and stop that, because you can see if we just leave that doing what it's doing, it's going to start shading out and it's really important that we keep the living mass of this tree, so there's a balance there between the living mass and the dead mass of the tree, the static mass. And it's that balance as a ratio for the tree, you know, if you, if you look at a younger tree there, you can say that almost almost 100% of of the of the crown of that tree is alive. Whereas you look at this tree and you start thinking maybe 50%. So the closer that ratio between the living mass and the dead mass is, the closer that gets more like to a one to one, then the the tree will will then gradually just just just be going into decline. So you know, the tree will not live forever but I'm pretty confident it's going to outlive us guys *laughs*

Jules: Yes. It's an amazing thought, isn't it? And it's obviously very loved and and and I think the importance is is not just about the tree itself, is it? So really ancient oaks like this, they support enormous numbers of species, some of which only live on ancient oaks. So that's why we need to protect this tree as much as we possibly can and also bring on those veteran oaks of the future that you you, you're, you're that you're you're doing just that, aren't you, here in the park. Absolutely vital.

Matt: Yeah, very much so, very much so. As we've driven across the park, we've seen various planting that's been supported by the Tree Council. And like you say, that has, that certainly has been planting more oak trees, but then also other nectar bearing species, rowan, blackthorn, hawthorn, gorse. And these are all important, like you say for the deadwood insects that, that, that live within the ancient oak tree and and then as the tree gets older it then develops more veteran features and those crags, holes are very important roosting habitats for, certainly for owls and bats.

Jules: Yeah. And so oak trees in the UK collectively support more than 2,300 species, some of which are completely reliant on oak trees. They couldn't survive without oak trees, and one of the things we were talking about earlier as we drove up was the fact that there are, you know, some, some beetles, for example, some longhorn beetles, for example, they spend their lives as larvae living in deadwood. But then the adults, they need nectar when they grow up, so again, it's really important to have those nectar sources nearby isn't it?

Matt: Yeah. So very, very much is. Yeah. And that's what we're looking to do on the park we are we are planting those, those supporting plants.

Jules: Fantastic. Wonderful. This incredible tree that we're standing in front of is one of the ten contenders in this year's Tree of the Year competition and the theme of this year's competition is culture and the the the the history and culture associated with trees in our world. Ancient oaks are absolutely threaded in our culture. I'm particularly interested in them, I wrote a book about about oak trees called Oaklore, and one of the things that I talked about was the way that the oak tree intertwines with our lives with with lots of different species, but also with human lives and with our culture. There were so many stories associated with the oak tree. One of my favourites is the story of Charles II and the Boscobel Oak. So before Charles II was, became king he was fighting the parliamentarians and he took a terrible drubbing at a battle. And he needed to escape. And he escaped to Boscobel House. And he was with this soldier called Colonel Careless, and this soldier suggested that they hide in the oak tree overnight rather than the house. And they did. And even though the parliamentarian troops were were wandering nearby, they didn't find the king and his soldiers, and they escaped. And eventually they returned and that led to the restoration of the monarchy. The thing I like about this story is the cultural links then go on and on. Because at that point, a day of national celebration was declared throughout the land, and that was 29 May and that became Oak Apple Day and everybody would party and if the best people at the party, the coolest people at the party, they waved oak branches and wore oak leaves and and if you were super cool, you had lots of oak apples on your, so little galls on your oak branches. And if you didn't have little symbols of oaks, then others were apparently within their rights to take a bunch of nettles and and and attacked you with nettles, which wasn't so nice. So it was also called Nettle Day. It was also known as Pinch Bum Day and Maids Ruin Day. The story goes on, but the other sort of fun cultural connection to that is it also came, it also brought about lots of pubs called the Royal Oak, and the last time I looked there were about 400 oak trees, 400 sorry pubs called the Royal Oak throughout the land, so the cultural tales just go on and on. And that's just the oak tree. But all of our native trees have some fantastic stories associated with them in. In fact every old tree has a story to tell. It's like us, like every older person, we've all got a story, a history to tell. Yeah. OK.

Matt: So yeah, we're just walking back from the oldest tree now, and we're just sort of musing over just that connection that human, humans have got to trees. I think it's the fact that an oak tree can sort of live centuries and really, that puts our lifetimes somewhat in perspective. And the fact that an oak tree can just go from the tiniest of acorns to a huge mass of of timber and that is just really fantastic, how you could you could cut open a tree and see all those different tree rings, those years of growth and then just sort of put that in context, what was happening was, was it Dick Whittington that was the Lord Mayor of London for the last time, was it was it the Battle of Agincourt, was it the Magna Carta? And and it's for people like you that actually write books about it, Jules, that can say it a lot better than me *both laugh*

Jules: No that was brilliant and we're not gonna cut this one in half though are we, Matt?

Matt: No, we're certainly not. And the fact that it's hollow, we just can't see those rings anymore.

Jules: No. Thank you. Brilliant. Right. This is our final leg on our walk and we're now in a polytunnel and it's really warm because the sun's beating down outside and it smells gorgeous and and we are surrounded by lots of little trees. Matt, can you tell us a little bit about these?

Matt: So the polytunnel was funded by the Tree Council and it's just very important that we're growing on oaks for the future from acorns that have been collected on site. So they've got the genetic continuity of the long-lived oak trees and hopefully they'll grow and carry on into long into the future.

Jules: And are they, is it a a mix of acorns from all different trees in in here or is it, or is, are you, are you taking them from specific trees?

Matt: It's yeah, it's a bit of a mix. Sometimes, you know, where where we can and where they're viable, if we if we get to the acorns from a veteran tree before the deer, then that's certainly something that we we're looking to grow on. So generally that's what we're that's that's where we'll try and harvest them from that, we've put a frame down before with a bit of a grill, so we can collect the acorns, but then they don't get eaten and that's certainly quite a good technique. And and then we we we grow on from the old trees where we can, yes.

Jules: They're really lovely. So we've got really tiny little trees with, some of them have got like, you know, about 5 or 6 leaves. And then they go up to sort of above our just above our heads. And I think what always strikes me is the, the the diversity in in leaf shape and colour that you that you see all around you. So even the same place within within oak trees, it's incredible, the different shapes and sizes you get, isn't it?

Matt: Yeah, it really is. And you know, look, looking some of the some of the oaks have been collected from Swithland Woods as well. And and where you've got a stalked leaf, that is a sessile oak.

Jules: Ah yes.

Matt: And and where you've got a a leaf that's coming off that isn't stalked, that is an English oak, but but that will have a stalked acorn.

Jules: Yes. So that's the the key way to tell the difference isn't. Yeah, brilliant. Thank you. I love it. The Bradgate Park oak is one of ten iconic trees across the UK in the running for the Tree of the Year competition. Other examples include the Tree of Peace and Unity in County Antrim. That's an iconic lime tree, I say a lime tree, it's actually two lime trees which are fused together so that the trunk has become bound as one and it's, they've become inseparable and as such they've become a symbol of harmony and hope. So newly married couples sit beneath that tree for a blessing and it became a particular symbol of peace and reconciliation when Tony Blair, David Trimble and John Hume met here in 1998 at the signing of the Good Friday Agreement. Another example is the Argyle Street Ash in Glasgow. This tree is growing right next to some historic flats and it's seen as a symbol of local resilience. It has survived all kinds of things, including Victorian industry, the Clydeside Blitz, recent development and so far, ash dieback. One of its cultural connections is that it was featured in a 1935 book by James Cowan. The book was called From Glasgow's Treasure Chest and in it he describes the tree as 'quite the most graceful ash I have seen'. Well, that's enough of me. Meanwhile, thank you so much to Matt and Natasha. It's been great fun talking trees with you.

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Tinuke Oyediran is on a mission to explore all of the UK's temperate rainforests, so for our latest episode, we showed her around magical Bovey Valley Woods in Devon. Tinuke is an adventurer and former professional roller skater, and was a contestant on the BBC's Survivor UK show. She's really passionate about nature, pushing boundaries and sharing her experiences to educate and inspire online communities.

As we take a riverside ramble through the rainforest, we hear Tinuke on her wild adventures, the healing powers of nature and her efforts to address the lack of representation in the great outdoors. We also hear about her life-changing experience on Survivor UK, how being outdoors helped her to cope with trauma, past and future adventures and the three Guinness World Records she holds!

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, today I am meeting a professional roller skater, which is a first for me anyway. She was also one of 18 contestants marooned on a deserted location in a BBC reality show which saw people divided into two groups and tasked with competing in a range of challenges in the hope of eventually winning the title of sole survivor. She's meeting me on what I hope to be a less arduous but no less interesting adventure visiting a really, a really very rare sight, a temperate rainforest here in the UK in Devon.

Tinuke: Yeah. So my name is Tinuke. I am an adventurer, I'm an online storyteller, triple Guinness World Record holder randomly enough, I'm completely obsessed with being in the outdoors and outside of my comfort zone, so being here in a new temperate rainforest is a great start.

Adam: Right. Well, I've I've gotta first of all, you you threw away the line 'a triple Guinness World Record holder'. So I've gotta ask you about that. What what's the three world records you hold?

Tinuke: I know. So it's I I used to be a professional roller skater in chapter number one.

Adam: Wow.

Tinuke: And it's the most cartwheels, the most burpees in a minute on roller skates and then the most spins on the e-roller skates in a minute as well. I did them all in lockdown, so I was just like on a mission. I had time.

Adam: OK. And e-roller skates are battery powered are they is that what they are?

Tinuke: Yeah, yeah, they're like, they're like a little, like, roller skate segway things that you put on your feet. It's pretty epic. You can go, like, up to 40 miles an hour. It's like proper adrenaline.

Adam: Wow. So I mean, I know we're here to talk about forests and the outdoors.

Tinuke: We are indeed.

Adam: But I have to, I've never met a professional roller skater before, so I just I have to begin with a couple of questions about that. So how how did that come about?

Tinuke: So I I used to be in a show called Starlight Express, which is a musical.

Adam: Oh yes, of course. Who doesn't know Starlight Express!

Tinuke: Literally.

Adam: So so but you were a roller skater before that.

Tinuke: I wasn't. I was a dancer before that. I I change my mind a lot as you *laughs*

Adam: Ah so is that how it works, I often wondered that because they they go through a lot of roller skaters and I thought, that's a limited pool they're fishing in so so they get dancers and teach them how to roller skate.

Tinuke: Yeah. Yeah, they train us up and then if you can do the, if you can roller skate by the end of the sort of like training up then you go on to the show. And I did that for two years in Germany and then I came back to the UK and was a professional roller skater for like, 10 years, which was great.

Adam: Amazing. Are you still, are you still doing all of that?

Tinuke: I do sometimes yeah, I have I have a little cute troop of hula hoop gals who I meet up with every now and then and, like, do some fun jobs with. Yeah.

Adam: OK, good. Alright. And I promise not to ask you anymore about roller skating. Right. So you are an adventurer. And I know you are on is that right, a sort of mission to to look at the temperate rainforests and and forests of the UK?

Tinuke: I am indeed. Yeah, that among many other missions. So I suppose I could go in how I started, which follows on from the roller skate story, is I went on a show called Survivor on the BBC. Essentially, it's a show where *laughs* they basically just like strip you of all your human rights and desert you on an island and you have to survive in the wilderness out there. So I had a love of the outdoors and forests and woodlands and the wilderness, everything before. But that's what sort of shifted it into making it a bit of a mission to explore.

Adam: And how did you how did you do? For those who haven't been following Survivor, which is a massively popular programme, but for those who don't know it, how did you do?

Tinuke: I did good. Yeah. Yeah, I did good. It was absolutely brutal in, both physically and emotionally. It's quite it's quite a hard show in terms of like, ohh tactics and things like that. So that was quite tough, but I loved being, living in the wild, building shelters, catching food and yeah, just living out there. That was, that was incredible.

Adam: Had you done anything like that before?

Tinuke: So I had recently gone and lived out in a a beautiful forest near Stonehenge for a week on my own as you do *laughs* and that was a lot of shelter building and bushcraft skills and all of that, fire making, so I I...

Adam: And you just taught yourself this? I mean you just turn up and yeah, I'm gonna sit in the forest now for a week, I better learn how to build a fire or what? *both laugh*

Tinuke: Yeah, like some London City babe, just like, where am I? I had done some, like basic skills and and beforehand, so I did know what I was doing. I'd done lots of shelter, building and stuff like that before, but yeah.

Adam: And what was, so you said, catching your own food, this is killing animals and eating them, is that?

Tinuke: We we, no, we we had, it was I I wasn't, you're not allowed to, I wasn't allowed to catch them and eat them. So I had things with me that I brought in, rabbits and then I forest forage-ed, foraged, foragaged? Foragaged a lot.

Adam: Whatever. I know what you mean *both laugh* Very cool.

Tinuke: Yeah. Yeah, that was crazy.

Adam: And so so that's your background. Lots of different bits to that obviously. And and this latest adventure to sort of travel around the UK an look at forests. Why why that particularly?

Tinuke: Yeah. So I first of all, I think it was just online I saw something. This must have been a couple of years ago, something about like UK rainforests and I was just like, what? I had no idea at that point that there were rainforests in the UK and I started off with a rainforest actually not too far from here, which was the first one I went to go visit and and I just started learning all about it. I I do lots of storytelling online and sharing with my community and like educating people about what we can find in the UK. And so that was my first obsession where my rainforest addiction begun and then since then, I've gone up to lots of them in Scotland. Yeah. So yeah, that's where it all kind of began.

Adam: So very good. And so it is a, I mean it's it's a surprise I think to most people to be honest that there is a a temperate rainforest in in the UK at all. And it's that in particular which you are looking at on this, you know, adventure, this tour of the UK, not forests in general, it is rainforests.

Tinuke: It is rainforests, yeah.

Adam: And there's a lot of talk now about the sort of mental wellbeing, and in fact, only a few weeks ago, when the King had some problems with his recurring cancer, he and some other members of royalty I think were talking about the healing powers of being out in nature. So it's sort of a very topical thing. What's your take or experience of that?

Tinuke: Yeah. Forest bathing is a thing. I love it. All about sort of bathing your senses and being in the forest, obviously. But my personal journey with nature and healing is a very strong one and is definitely rooted in why I do what I do and why I've chosen this as a career. So when I was about 28, I went through quite a traumatic time where I lost all of my sort of like initial close family. So my cousin, brother, my mum and dad. And I was super young obviously at the time and I started going out into nature as what I thought was like a way to escape my reality. And I went on lots of crazy adventures, hiking, going into the Grand Canyon, going hiking around Iceland. And it was sort of what I thought was a way to get away from everything. But it just became my biggest healing tool ever, and I have recently liked to call it adventure therapy or adventure healing and and it's all about putting yourself out of your comfort zone, being somewhere where you're not normally are, going out into nature forest bathing, hiking, breathing, experiencing aura of nature, looking at an unbelievably tall tree or, you know, a huge beautiful valley like the one that we're in today.

Adam: And and it's interesting so you, I mean, you were a dancer and and a roller skater, so you're obviously a physical person anyway,

Tinuke: 100% yeah.

Adam: So that was so, but there seems to be a distinction you're making between the sort of exercise you might do as part of your dancing and roller skating, and the sort of exercise that is involved in going to a forest or on a hike or something. Why is that different? Because we talk about exercise and the endorphins anyway, so you get that whether you're in a gym or running in a forest. What's different about being in a forest?

Tinuke: So I I do like the idea of moving forwards, so I do lots of processing whilst I'm hiking so there's a there's a thing, if I go on on a little bit of a tangent, it's called it's a therapy called EMDR, where

Adam: N?

Tinuke: EMDR.

Adam: M for mother. EMDR yes.

Tinuke: Yeah, where it's all about rapid eye movement. So you might follow your end of your finger and you go left, right, left, right. It's all about combining the left and right hemisphere of your brain whilst you're processing something traumatic and you can also do it whilst you're tapping and you can also do it whilst you're walking so that's what I started to do whilst I was hiking out in nature.

Adam: And what does that do so why, why is that helpful?

Tinuke: The traumatic memory normally gets stuck in the right hemisphere of the brain because that's where emotions and and all of that is governed and so obviously, feelings of anxiety and all the things that can come with going through something traumatic. So by processing whilst you're stimulating the right and left hemisphere of your brain, walking, looking, tapping, side to side, it just helps blend blend it into one and that's what I that's what that's why I've picked hiking and being outdoors.

Adam: Very nice. And you, have you found a difference?

Tinuke: Completely, 100%. It's like absolutely changed my life, especially especially obviously since I went through all of that. I like doing something, as you said, I'm a physical person, but I like doing something that's quite hard. I like it to be quite challenging, like a challenging hike or a long one, and then at the end of it, it's just building up that resilience that I'm capable of getting over hard things, I'm capable of being a little bit uncomfortable when it's pouring with rain. I've gone camping, there's loads of midges, blah blah, blah and then it's type two fun, you know?

Adam: Right. Type two fun?

Tinuke: Type two fun.

Adam: I can, never heard of that. Right. That's that's fun with a bit of an obstacle?

Tinuke: That, that's that's the type of fun that you get in the outdoors a lot where you might be like, why am I camping in this rainforest and it's pouring with rain. But then afterwards, you're like, wow, what an incredible experience.

Adam: It was actually fun, oh good alright. Well we're just coming up to a big, let's go, just try and avoid that. So yeah. OK. So so you have found that to be a real benefit to you.

Tinuke: Yeah, it's definitely changed my life and my outlook on things. And also it's it's what I've learned about myself is that I'm capable of pushing through uncomfortable moments, and it's like cold, hard evidence for myself that I'm capable of doing that. So it's definitely been a massive like trauma recovery tool for me, yeah.

Adam: That's it's interesting. You also talked right at the beginning of this little walk about how, I think you wanted to demonstrate to your community the benefits of nature and the outside. So, so so for what what community are we talking about, to be in, because we want, everyone is part of lots of different types of communities. So so what community are you talking about?

Tinuke: So for me like representation of BIPOC people, people of colour, especially in the UK, mainly city dwellers don't have as much experience with the outdoors so,

Adam: So you're talking about, you are talking about lots of different,

Tinuke: Yeah

Adam: You're not talking about an ethnic community or anything,

Tinuke: No no no.

Adam: You're you're saying young people, people from different,

Tinuke: Yeah. People of colour, people of colour, especially like for me obviously like black women doing adventurous stuff is not normally what we get up to *laughs*.

Adam: Is it not?

Tinuke: Not, not not in comparison to,

Adam: So why, why is that then why do you think that is?

Tinuke: Lots of different reasons. Lack of representation in the outdoor scene is a huge thing across like the media, and also just when you come to a rainforest like this or a space, it's very different to be here when you're the only person of colour here, lots of people feel like they are a bit out of place, wouldn't know how to get here, wouldn't know that it was a thing that you could do, wouldn't know the benefits of it and and also it's if it if your if your peers and your family don't, don't go and spend much time in nature, you don't have that incentive to or need to know that you can do it. But in recent times it's definitely changing, which is amazing. And there's some incredible groups that are popping up. Black Girls Hike is an incredible one.

Adam: Is that the name of the group?

Tinuke: That's the name of the group, Black Girls Hike. Yeah.

Adam: And that's a a physical group of people, of black girls who go hiking.

Tinuke: Yeah, kayaking, camping, all sorts of things. And it's yeah, specifically for people of colour to like understand what it is and how amazing it is to be out here. I went on a camping trip with them last year. It was like 80 women or most of most of them it was all their first camping trip and and that was amazing.

Adam: And what about age then as well? Because I was struck by how younger people are very to my mind, very politically engaged with the environment, but less actually engaged, so they, it tends to be older people, in my experience who are part of the environmental charities, I mean, I suppose first of all, do you think that's right or am I wrong in your view or, and so what what do you know about the engagement of of younger people, of all colours and and sex and gender, of of people of your age group. Do they tend to talk about the environment? Is that a a dull subject to them?

Tinuke: No no, it's it's not a dull subject. It's a big subject. Obviously this is our reality and it's gonna be the reality of our children and our children's children and much more than it would be for someone older. So it is a big topic of conversation, especially the world that I'm in at the moment, meeting so many people who love the outdoors. It's definitely a subject that is brought up a lot, definitely, and it's it's definitely a thing of why I started the rainforests and going around the temperate rainforest because they're so endangered and it is a massive topic of conversation.

Adam: And and are people optimistic about it or are they, is it is it all disaster prone. I I I fear sometimes that the environmental lobby talks so much about the problems it's a bit of a turn off to be honest. But you've been talking very positively about the role of it all.

Tinuke: So I suppose I'm trying to put a positive switch on it by talking about it a lot and promoting everything that I do online. For example, I just went to Kilimanjaro two weeks ago and that was the whole reason I went there was because in a couple of years, well in, there won't be a glacier at the top of it anymore. The snow would have melted. So I was on a mission to do it before the glacier had melted and I talk a lot about it whilst I'm doing it. And suffering a lot actually up there. Adam

Adam: Suffering from the cold and the,

Tinuke: And the altitude and everything.

Adam: How how high is Kilimanjaro?

Tinuke: It was like three, 3,870 something metres.

Adam: Right, and and you walked up.

Tinuke: I did, very, very slowly *laughs*.

Adam: I was going to say, how long did it take you to get there?

Tinuke: It took me seven days to get there and down. Yeah, it was a little bit mad.

Adam: With a group, or?

Tinuke: With a group, yeah. And I got a chest infection on day two.

Adam: Oh wow.

Tinuke: It was it was like one of the hardest things I've ever done. And that's when you're like, yeah.

Adam: That's type two fun, isn't it?

Tinuke: That is type two fun *both laugh*

Adam: Sorry I have paused because we are right by a beautiful bridge. Isn't that lovely? Doesn't that look like a a sort of something

Tinuke: Like the Hobbit

Adam: It does, you know what it does, like a Hobbit right out of Hollywood.

Tinuke: Or like there'll be a troll underneath.

Adam: Yeah. Who knows? Maybe there is a troll and we need to answer a a riddle before we cross. Yeah, let's take a photo here. But it's a good point because I think you're massive on social media, so we'll take a photo here. Maybe you'll put it on social media, but what are your social media tags? And if people want to follow you?

Tinuke: So it's Tinuke, which is T-I-N-U-K-E underscore Oyediran, O-Y-E-D-I-R-A-N. And that's all over the place.

Adam: It's all over, on all platforms.

Tinuke: On all of them, it's the same.

Adam: You're you're you're everywhere. Right. Let's take a photo.

Tinuke: Yeah.

Adam: OK, right. Well, let's go over the troll bridge. Oops OK there we are.

Tinuke: We're not going to go for a wild swim?

Adam: Well, I'm very happy to to

Tinuke: To not *laughs*

Adam: To to try and find a towel for you on your exit, but I won't.

Tinuke: You can cheer me, cheer me on but not take part, partake

Adam: Yeah, I'm a, I'm a supporter of your wild swim as opposed to a participant.

Tinuke: Fair enough.

Adam: I would like to stand in the middle of that river. I'm not going to because I don't know what I'm doing. Anyway so you, you've got we talked about the adventures you've done on TV and elsewhere. You've got some other adventures coming up. What are they?

Tinuke: I do. I do indeed. I have some lots of UK hikes coming up, which you can always join me on. You can follow me on my Instagram and come,

Adam: When you say join you and you mean not just turn up and sort of follow behind you in a sort of creepy manner. This is an organised this is an organised thing.

Tinuke: No *laughs* yeah yeah organised hikes

Adam: Fine. OK organised. I thought, just go, oh look there she is, just follow her *both laugh*

Tinuke: Join me, join me. I'm also going to Iceland, which I'm inviting everyone to come along with me. That's in October, I'm going doing the Annapurna Trail in Nepal, sort of around around Everest. I'm doing that in November, also inviting everyone to join me. And then my big birthday party next year is going to be to Everest Base Camp, which is April next year. So you've got a whole year to train up.

Adam: And if people are interested in joining on these adventures, they contact you via all your social media platforms.

Tinuke: They do indeed.

Adam: Fantastic. How long have you been involved with the Woodland Trust for.

Tinuke: Probably about a year now.

Adam: So not not long and how did that happen?

Tinuke: I think it was I actually I think it was initially when I first saw a reel about temperate rainforest and I contacted and said I'm going off on a mission to visit them all. Can I come to all of yours and do you want to join in in any way? And yeah, it's been it's been really exciting since then. Yeah.

Adam: So I mean, you've talked about trying to encourage people from your communities to come along on a similar journey metaphorically as well as I suppose physically. What would your message be to them to to persuade them this is maybe something worth getting involved in?

Tinuke: The benefits for me have completely changed my life in an amazing way and I can't help but not share it. So come and try it out. Get outside your comfort zone a little bit if this is something that you're not used to trying, you definitely won't regret it and it's always nice to go with a group, so yeah, make new friends.

Adam: From all of us to all of you, thanks for joining us and as ever, happy wandering.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you.

Our latest episode comes from a rather unexpected venue: a former Chelsea Flower Show garden! Now located in London's Notting Hill, it's where we meet Danny Clarke, garden designer, TV presenter, and self-confessed tree hugger. As we explore the public woodland-themed garden, Danny explains how it tells the stories of injustice against humans and nature. He created the garden as part of his work with Grow2Know, a charity dedicated to making nature more appealing and accessible to a wider audience. It's a subject close to his heart and as he tells us about his childhood and the meaning behind his moniker, The Black Gardener, his passion is clear. Danny finds comfort and joy in nature: the sound of birdsong, the smell of tree bark, the texture of soil. And he's doing his utmost to help as many people as possible, regardless of background, to find that joy too.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, today I'm off to meet someone much closer to home than normal. I can do it on the tube rather than going on the train. I am meeting Danny Clarke, who is a British garden designer who shot to fame in 2015 as BBC's Instant Gardener. Since then, he's been on our screens with a host of popular garden makeover shows and horticultural advice. He joined ITV's This Morning's presenting team, and he is now a member of Alan Titchmarsh's Love Your Garden team as well. In fact, in addition to all of that, he helps run a charity known as Grow2Know which, whose heart I think really lies in reclaiming space and reconnecting people with nature and each other. And it's one of those projects I think I'm going to see him at really very centrally, in London, in Notting Hill, where they have tried to bring some green space, some nature right to the heart of the city, and include all the local communities.

Danny: My name is Danny Clarke. I'm a garden designer and TV presenter.

Adam: Lovely. And we are meeting in what is now fashionable Notting Hill, wasn't always the case when I was growing up around this area, actually, so, but but we're we're in an urban garden that is your design.

Danny: Well, not the whole garden, not the whole space. I mean, this is Tavistock Square. Yeah, uh, but we've, um, kind of elicited a section of it to rehome our Chelsea Flower Show garden from 2022, which is which actually is a Grow2Know project, of which of which I'm a director of.

Adam: So I what wanna know about Grow2Know. But you you've already mentioned the garden and we're standing right by it. So. Well, why don't you describe it to begin with. So people get a sort of visual image of what it is we're standing next to.

Danny: OK, so basically your corten steel structure, it's dominated by a corten steel structure. And that's supposed to represent two things, a) the mangrove restaurant, which was a place that was owned by a West Indian immigrant in the late 60s/70s that was brutalised by the police. And so it's telling that story. And it's also telling the story of man's injustice to nature. So what we see here really is a corten steel structure, which represents the roots of a mangrove tree. And as you can see, it looks quite brutal and and and the top where the trunk is, it's actually been severed, which actually represents what, you know, man's kind of lack of, shall we say, I don't know, respect for nature.

Adam: So it's it's a political, I mean, it's an interesting installation, if that's the right word, in that it's it is political in this with this sort of small P, not party political, but it's sort of reflecting the societal challenges that this area certainly went through. But you it's interesting, you talk about the trunk, is it is it also a tree? I mean this is a sort of tree podcast. Is there a reference in that as well?

Danny: Yeah, that's a reference to the tree, so that the reference to the tree is that it is a mangrove tree alright, so mangrove and mangrove restaurant. Yeah, so it's kind of a play on words, if you like. So we're telling it's really about storytelling. So we're telling two stories here. We're telling the story of man's brutality against man and man's brutality against nature.

Adam: Wonderful. So you run this organisation? What's it called again?

Danny: It's called Grow2Know. I don't actually run it, I'm a director, so I'm I'm I'm it's so it started well, it started soon after the Grenfell fire in 2017.

Adam: Which is also I mean this is not far from here as well.

Danny: It's not far from here. It's just up the road. And I was horrified by what unfolded like many people were. And I felt quite powerless. So I thought, you know what I'll do? I'll get in touch with the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, where the tower resides and see if I could help in some way, maybe use my expertise as a garden designer to maybe build a small, I don't know, small garden and I spoke to our head of greening guy called Terry Oliver. There's lots of emails flying backwards and forwards. And he was eulogising about this young man called Tayshan Hayden-Smith, 19, single father and who lives near the tower who knew people who perished in the flames. And he turned to gardening or guerilla gardening. I don't know if you know what that is? It's gardening without permission.

Adam: Well, yeah. A friend of mine does that actually near where I live, and sort of grows plants, actually vegetables and potatoes in the street trees. I'm I'm going I don't wanna eat your potatoes! But anyway, I get it. It's an interesting sort of little subculture, guerilla gardening.

Danny: He was just drawn to it. I think it's probably because his mum used to was into nature when Tayshan was very young and she used to point things out to him. Like, look at that tree, isn't that wonderful? Look at that sunset, isn't it lovely? And this, this kind of instilled into his sort of consciousness. And he just naturally just felt he needed to just go out and find a piece of land, community space, pick up litter, syringes, maybe go to the garden centre, get some fading plants and just pretty the place up as best he could, and he got a lot of healing from that and people will be attracted to him. So there'll be this conversation going on. Sometimes people will stay for a minute, then go off again. Others will probably stay and help him along the way. You know? You know, to to transform the space as best they could. And he got a lot of healing from that.

Adam: And and and you, you and your colleagues sort of created this charity around.

Danny: So so no, no. So o what then happened was that I... he wanted to know if I'd like to meet this guy, and I'm thinking to myself, you know, I've been meeting a guy that's got all sorts of issues that I might not be able to deal with. But I had this outline of him, and when I met him, there was none of that. He's the most amazing, well-put-together, guy – young man – I've ever met really. And I, cut a long story short, became his mentor, and we've just been on this fabulous journey ever since. And this is part of it. So one day, Tayshan said to me, he'd like to form a nonprofit. We didn't have a name for it at the time, but it did become Grow2Know, and and he wanted to show the wider, more people wanted to make it nature more inclusive, and he because he got so many benefits from it, he wanted the other people to enjoy, you know, the curative effects of gardening and being in nature – cause we all know it's good for the mind, body and soul. So that's how Grow2Know was born. But we've actually sort of gone on from that now. We're more than just a a gardening collective. We're more pace-making, change making. We're out there to sort of change the narrative, if you like. And we're kind of an activist group and we're just trying to make nature more appealing to a wider audience.

Adam: And how how are you doing that? I mean, you've clearly got this garden here. But in trying to sort of bring urban communities closer to nature, how are you doing that?

Danny: Yeah. Bring, bring, bring communities closer to nature.

Adam: And how do you do that?

Danny: By having spaces like this. So we've got spaces, quite a few spaces that we've converted in this area and this is just one of them. So it's about bringing people into nature and making it more diverse and more accessible. And in many ways, that's what we're about.

Adam: And so I'm interested in in your view about urban communities, youth communities, diverse communities.

Danny: That we're all drawn to nature. You know, we, we we all needed part of it in our lives. That's what lockdown taught us, that it was very important for us.

Adam: So it's not a challenge for you to bring them into your world. You think they're already there?

Danny: No, the people are already there. It's it's just giving them access to these spaces. I mean, for example, excuse me, in the north of Kensington where, let's say it's less affluent than the South, people have the equivalent of one car parking space of nature or greenery that they can access. In the South, which is a lot richer by the river, you know, you've got the like, well, the Chelsea Flower Show is actually by the Thames River, and where people like Simon Cowell and David Beckham have properties, so you get an idea.

Adam: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes.

Danny: We all know how wealthy that area is. They've got on average half a football pitch of nature they can access, or greenery. So that tells its own story and and the life expectancy between the people in the north of the borough and the south of the borough, there's a 15 year difference, so you're expected to live 15 years longer if you live in the south than you are in the north.

Adam: It is and I hadn't thought of that before you said that, but it is an interesting part of London, this, because Kensington has this sort of reputation of being very posh and everything and the David Beckhams and the what have you. But it is a very divided sort of part of London, isn't it? With the very rich and really the quite quite poor and disadvantaged as well, all within the same borough.

Danny: It is, there's a big difference and I think you'll probably find it's the biggest, there's a bigger disparity here than any other borough in in the country.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting. So also, oh, well, why don't we have a walk? We'll walk through through your garden whilst we're talking about this. So also just tell me a bit about, so we we you you very eloquently describe the the the metal sculpture we're we're sort of walking under now, but a bit, the planting as well. So you've got sort of beds of bark here which make it look very nice.

Danny: Yeah. So we're we're kind of going with the woodland theme cause as you can see there's lots of trees around here, cause I'm I am a bit of a tree hugger and I love trees. That's my thing.

Danny: And we didn't want to, I mean, the, the this garden, although it was our Grow2Know show garden at Chelsea, we haven't actually transformed it in that form. It's the planting is completely different because if we did that, it would jar with what's around. So we've gone with the space. So although yeah, it's all good.

Adam: It's all quite green and evergreen.

Danny: So the actual structure is the same, but that's all that's that's that's similar. Every, everything else is different. And of course we've had to adapt it as well because the garden that we had at Chelsea had ponds. So for health and safety reasons, we couldn't have that here. So we've gone with the woodlandy theme and so there's rhododendrons, there's ferns.

Adam: I was gonna say quite a lot of ferns and some also some big stones here as well, which sort of nice, nice bit of sculpture.

Danny: Yeah. That that's a bit of a coincidence really, because.

Adam: Because they're just there.

Danny: These were already here, but believe it or not, we had stones this size in our Chelsea Flower Show garden. We didn't transport them from there to here. These were already here and we've just kind of re- sort of jigged them. Re-placed them. Just to make it all look a bit more appealing. But we actually had these at Chelsea as seats in the central area underneath the structure. But now they're actually sort of dispersed in the beds and they make great features and and having them there actually helps move the eye around the space.

Adam: Yeah. So I mean what, ecology and and concerns about the environment. Clearly a a big issue at the moment. What what's your sense about how the people you work with and and talk to feel about that and engage with it? Are you optimistic about that engagement and and what difference that might make? That was that was my phone. I'm sorry, I should have should have put that on silent.

Danny: I'm working with amateurs Ruby! Ohh.

Adam: Yeah, I know, I know. I know. You know what? When I'm out with the film crew, you have to buy the round of drinks if that, 'whose phone went?' Right, you're buying a round the, yeah, we're we're we're right by the...

Danny: Yeah, well, and it's and it ain't cheap.

Adam: OK. I'll put it on silent now. That'll teach me. What was I saying? Yeah, so. Yes. I wonder whether you're optimistic about that reengagement? Cause the way you're talking about it is very positive actually. Everything you've said is very positive. Is that I, I want to get a sense of is that because you're a positive guy and you or, you know, you're trying to look on the positive side, or you genuinely feel no, no, this, you know, these communities are engaging and that's a great thing, not just for them. But for nature, because if people support nature, nature's got a sort of pal hasn't it.

Danny: Yeah. And I think people are engaging and and do you know what? I mean I'm all for getting young people involved in nature as much as I possibly can. I think that's very, very important. I think we gotta get them out at a a very early age, the earlier the better because then it sort of stays with you for the rest of your life. If you are not sort of involved in it at young age then you're not, you're less likely to be interested in it later on in life. But I think people generally are engaged in nature. They do need a bit of green. Yeah, I think we're naturally drawn to it. I know when we put it, for example, installing this garden here, the amount of people that are coming out and saying what a wonderful job we were doing. And you know this sort of thing is much needed in this space. And it's also by doing this, it's encouraged the cause. This is a council owned area. It's encouraged the council now to reconfigure the whole of this area to sort of give this more of a sense of place.

Adam: I mean, it's interesting you say that. I have to say my experience is not that, it's that young people I meet and I don't meet as many as probably you do, so I will accept that maybe you have a more expert view on this. But my experience is that younger people are engaged with the politics of nature like they're very into green politics maybe and talk about it, but you don't see them a lot in the woodlands.

Danny: Oh, absolutely.

Adam: It's actually older people I see in the woodlands and it's the young people are sort of politically going, yeah, yeah, that's cool. But actually, I don't see them at these sort of events and they might grow into that. But so is that I I'm just wondering whether you recognise that or you think no, no, that's not what you see. They are actually out there and I'm just seeing, you know, a sort of different view.

Danny: I think I think they are. I think they are out there. Obviously there are a lot of young people aren't kind of, don't, aren't as engaged with nature as say I was when I I was a lot younger. I mean you don't see them outside sort of playing around, kicking the ball, climbing trees like we would do, going off of bike rides into the fields.

Adam: Are you a country boy, then are you? Or you grew up in town?

Danny: No. In fact, my my childhood was very I I moved around a lot cause my dad was in the army. So lived in Belgium, Germany, Malta, all those sort of places. But we were never encouraged to be indoors. We were always thrown outside. I mean, I remember even at the age of 8 or 9 just disappearing for all day. My parents would never know where I was. But you know, I'd I always came home. I never came to any harm. But I think these days I think parents are kind of very worried that that something might nefarious might happen to their children and and the kids aren't given the freedom that we were given, which is a shame. So they're not exposed to nature as much on their own. I mean, I do see kids going around with their parents on walks and stuff like that, but it's not quite the same as being able to explore on your own. You know, children naturally want to sort of push the boundaries. We really need to let kids do their own thing, explore more. It's a growing experience and you know, and we all need it. We all need to be out and about and you know, listen to the tweet, I mean, tweeting of the birds, you know, feeling, feeling the wind on our on our faces, the warmth of the sun on our skin, all those things that you know, just feeling the texture of the soil, the texture of the bark on the trees. It's lovely. I love doing that. When I hug a tree, you know. Just to smell the bark. It's lovely. It's comforting. And that's because I was exposed to it when I was a child. And you know it, it gives me those fond memories and and because of that it's it's very calming and and and a great stress-buster.

Adam: I follow you on on Instagram. You got a good Instagram following and your Instagram handle, if anyone wants to do that, is?

Danny: The Black Gardener

Adam: The Black Gardener. So that, which itself is an interesting sort of handle. So you're making, I don't know, is that just a random handle or are you making a point about, oh I am the black gardener. That's that's a statement.

Danny: *laughs* Well I am. I am what it says on the tin.

Adam: No, no. But look I'm a bald, I'm a bald reporter *laughs*. My handle isn't bald reporter, right? So it feels like you're saying something about that that's important. And I just...

Danny: It is it is, it is important.

Adam: Unpack that for me. Why is, why did you choose that, why is that connection to gardening, to nature and the lack community and your heritage? Why is that important?

Danny: It's important because there are few black people who are in my industry, so that's why I'm The Black Gardener. So I got the idea from a guy called so, The Black Farmer.

Adam: Yeah, famous range of sausages.

Danny: That's right and I saw that he was having success with his name and the reason he calls himself The Black Farmer, cause at the time he's the only black farmer in the country, so hence The Black Farmer. Black gardeners, professional black gardeners are as rare as hen's teeth. So I thought to myself, why don't I call myself the black gardener?

Adam: But why? Why do you think it is then? Cause that goes back to our earlier conversation. About sort of other diverse communities.

Danny: It could be some psychological reason, maybe from the days of slavery. Where working the land is seen as servile. Parents don't want their children to be working the land. They want their children to do something respectable like be a doctor or lawyer or something like that, so they tend to veer them away from doing something which is connected to the land, and and I think maybe that could be a reason, I mean I did have a conversation with somebody via Twitter in the States about it, and she said it's the same there. People of colour tend not to want to go into land-based industry. I mean I've I've only ever and this is only about two months ago, I saw my first black tree surgeon. Yeah, and and you know my plant wholesalers. I've spoken to them about it and they said, you know what, we've got thousands of people on the books and they can only count on one hand the amount of people of colour who are actually in the land-based industry. But also you you've gotta see it to be it as well, you know.

Adam: What do you mean?

Danny: Well, what I mean is if people see me in this space, then it's gonna encourage them to be in this space.

Adam: I see, it normalises it more.

Danny: It it normalises it more. I mean, I I go into the countryside. I mean, I'm a member of the National Trust, RHS. And I go and visit these great gardens and I walk around. I'm obviously in nature, and I very rarely see people of colour. I I I was in, where was I? Sissinghurst, a little, Sissinghurst Gardens a while back. And I must have been there for a good four or five hours. And I was the only person of colour who was walking around that space. So I I want people to see me in those spaces and that hopefully will encourage them to think, well if it's for him, why can't I go there as well.

Adam: Yeah, very cool. So I mean addressing, I mean that community and or anyone who's sort of listening to this podcast then. What would your message to them be about, maybe about that you've learned from your experiences engaging with gardens and trees and nature that you'd encourage them to do, or ways of getting involved, any anything you'd want to say to them?

Danny: Just just go out and enjoy the space, you know? Don't be put off because you feel it's not for you. It's for everybody. I mean, nature shouldn't have any boundaries. It's there for everybody to enjoy and you get the benefits from being out there. It's it's it's all good for us. I mean I would really like to see more people engaged in gardening or horticulture as a way of earning a living. Because for me it's it's not a job. It's just what I do. It's what I enjoy. I've got a real passion for it. I love it and I like to see other people, whoever they are. It it doesn't have to be a colour thing. It it, I'm talking about young, old, I'm talking about gay, straight, whatever, whoever you are, it's there for everybody to to enjoy.

Adam: Brilliant. Well, it's been a real treat meeting you. Thank you very much indeed. Under your wonderful sculpture in your garden in the centre of London.

Danny: Yeah, you're most welcome.

Adam: Thank you very much. Remind me of your your your social media handles.

Danny: It's The Black Gardener. I'm I'm on Facebook and I'm on Threads.

Adam: On Threads, now there's something I haven't heard for a long time!

Danny: Yes. Yeah *laughs* So there you go. There you go.

Adam: Right, The Black Gardener, thank you very much indeed,

Danny: You're most welcome.

Adam: Well, thank you very much for listening to that and those bangs you might have heard in the background were a sign that we should go because that was the the local bin men coming along to collect the rubbish *laughs*. Anyway, thanks for listening. And wherever you're taking your walks, be that in real life or just with us on the Woodland Walks podcast, I wish you all happy wandering.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the Visiting Woods pages. Thank you.

Buckland Wood is no ordinary wood. This is magical temperate rainforest, a rare habitat not just in the UK but in the world. Cloaked in lush lichens and mosses, dotted with stone walls and bridges and with a beautiful river rambling through, it already looks and feels like a special place. But the Trust has big plans for its future. Join us to explore with rainforest guru Sam, who tells us about the bid to restore this globally important site and its huge potential to connect people with nature, store carbon and boost biodiversity. Hear why temperate rainforests are so special, along with pine marten reintroductions, backpacks on beetles and much more!

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: For today's woodland walk, we are heading into the rainforest, but I am not going very far. Well, I'm going quite far, but not to the Amazon, or South America. I'm going to to the temperate rainforest, which isn't as well known, but is actually even rarer than the tropical rainforest. It's also known as Atlantic or Celtic rainforest. And as I said, exceptionally rare. You do find it on the West Coast of Scotland, North and West Wales, Devon, Cornwall, Cumbria, parts of Northern Ireland, which sounds like a long list, but it really isn't. And what's wonderful actually is that Britain is really the place in the world to find these things. We have a very high proportion of the global area of temperate rainforest. I'm heading to Devon to see some temperate rainforests. Anyway, enough from me. Let's go talk to an expert about Devon's temperate and exciting rainforest.

Sam: So I'm Sam Manning. I'm the project officer for the Woodland Trust Rainforest Recovery Project. We are here in Buckland Wood, which is a new Woodland Trust acquisition on Dartmoor in the Dart Valley.

Adam: Fantastic. And it's it's super new because the place we came down didn't seem to have a sign on it or anything. So when did the Trust acquire this?

Sam: So we've literally just acquired this this month and it's an extension really of two other sites that we own in the Dart Valley, Ausewell Wood, which we bought about five years ago and Grey Park Wood, which we've owned for a couple of decades.

Adam: Right. And and what are we gonna do? Where are you taking me today?

Sam: So we're going to have a walk around the wood and I'm going to show you some of the aspects of the restoration work that we have planned here, we're going to go down to the Dart River, which is a really special river. It's 26 miles long. Very, very ecologically biodiverse, very important for, in terms of temperate rainforest, and look at how we can restore that through various different natural flood management methods.

Adam: Right. Lead on, Sir. So you already mentioned the keyword temperate rainforest. Is that what this is?

Sam: Yeah. So this is sort of prime what we call hyper-oceanic temperate rainforest.

Adam: You just have to say that slowly. Hypo what?

Sam: Hyper-oceanic.

Adam: Hyper-oceanic, OK.

Sam: Yes. So there's there's two different kinds of temperate rainforest broadly. There's southern oceanic, which is any rainforest woodland that receives over 1.5 metres of rainfall a year.

Adam: Right.

Sam: Or hyper-oceanic and that is 1.8 metres of rainfall and above, so slightly techy and scientific. But what it means is is that you get two distinctly different communities of lichens or lower plants, which is what makes these woodlands particularly special.

Adam: Sorry, I've already forgotten. Are we in the rain type of temperate rainforest that gets more rain or less rain?

Sam: More rain.

Adam: More rain.

Sam: Yeah it rains a lot here.

Adam: So that's the the non-oceanic one gets more rain.

Sam: The hyper-oceanic gets a lot of rain, yeah.

Adam: Hyper-oceanic. OK, so you can see I'm a poor student. OK. So, but luckily extraordinary, I mean, it's a bit there's a chill, but it's it has been lovely weather and it's definitely dry today.

Sam: Hmm yeah, this is this is quite strange for Dartmoor really, I think this is sort of the driest March in 60 years or something. So we are we are beginning to experience much, much drier springs and summers, but one of the functions of these rainforests is they are very, very good at producing their own rain and and in 2020, during the COVID lockdown, there was a real blue sky dry sort of drought level day in that March-April period. And I remember walking through this valley in the middle of the day and there was a thunderstorm and that was occurring nowhere else even in Devon or the wider country. And that's because they're effectively these sponges that accumulate a lot of rain in winter, store them, and then produce them more in summer.

Adam: Wow. And and I mean also we we think of rainforests as basically Brazil I suppose. But but we have temperate rainforests in the UK and my understanding is, I mean, they're extraordinarily rare on a, not just the UK, a global level. Just give us a sense of how special and unusual these environments are.

Sam: Yeah, that's right. So they're they're found only on 1% of the earth's land surface. So they are rarer by area than tropical rainforest.

Adam: Right. Do you happen to know? Sorry, are we going down there?

Sam: Down there yeah.

Adam: OK, so 1% temperate rainforests. Do you know what tropical rainforests are to give us a sense of proportion?

Sam: I actually don't know that, but I suspect it's probably around somewhere between 10-15%.

Adam: OK, well, I'm not gonna hold you to that *both laugh* but but that gives us a sort of sense of just how rare these are and tropical rainforests are fairly rare anyway, but OK. So these are very, very unusual environments. And what are you trying to do here then?

Sam: Well, a lot of these temperate rainforests are ancient woodlands, but they are plantations on ancient woodlands, so they are woodlands that have existed in perpetuity for as long as records go back. But a lot of them, as you can see here, have been coniferised, so they would have been cleared of their native tree species like oak, to be replaced by non-native timber crops from places like the Pacific Northwest, which which that's also ironically a temperate rainforest landscape, but those species are not co-adapted to the species we have here. So you you get these plantations that are very, very unbiodiverse, very dark, very shading and really don't work in tandem with a lot of the light-demanding rainforest species that we have, like rowans, hawthorns, oaks, that kind of thing. Of those sites I've talked about, almost half of it is conifer.

Adam: So your your first job, ironically, is to take trees out?

Sam: Well there'll be a sort of two-pronged approach really of using natural processes to diversify the forest, make it more structured, diverse. But we will need to intervene at certain times, particularly if we have really, really rare species. So in Ausewell for example, there's a species of lichen called bacidia subturgidula, so it's got a mad Latin name,

Adam: Wow, OK I'm definitely not saying that *laughs*

Sam: *laughs* But that species, for example, we have a quarter of the entire world's population of that species of lichen in Ausewell.

Adam: Right in Ausewell, which is quite a small place.

Sam: Yeah, exactly. That's about 100 hectares, so...

Adam: And that's a quarter of the global population of this lichen is in that...

Sam: Of that species, yeah. So when it comes to that, it's really about almost surgically intervening.

Adam: That's interesting. Let's let's carry on, you you better lead on, I've no idea where I'm going. So but that's interesting because I I can see planting trees, I've never heard of people actually planting like them, I didn't think that was even possible.

Sam: Yeah. So we call it translocation and and that's really only a last a last sort of nuclear option really when it comes to lichen conservation, if we have a tree where they have a really, really rare form of, a rare population of a species, then moving that to another tree may be the difference between that going extinct or not. But here now we've had this happen, what we're going to be doing is seeding it with those rainforest tree species to start to get that regeneration and there's loads over here.

Adam: What I'm still not clear about is why is the rainforest so special? It might be, oh it gets a lot of rain, who cares? A place gets a lot of rain, so does Wales, so does a lot of bits of London. It's clearly something special, it's not the trees, so what, why is having a temperate rainforest actually a good thing, what makes it special?

Sam: Well, there's there's there's a few different things. One of them is, and this is the real key one we focus on, is the biodiversity value. So the real bad, Britain in general is quite a wildlife poor place. We have quite a low species diversity, but these rainforests are absolute wells of biodiversity globally. The key ones are these epiphytes, so we're talking about lichens, bryophytes, so those are the mosses, liverworts and hornworts. Britain has over 2,000 species of lichen, it's one of the most biodiverse places on Earth in terms of lichen species, so we're really punching above our weight in terms of biodiversity in that sense, and they're only really found in these temperate rainforest habitats.

Adam: And lichen, I love lichen, and it's a real sign of air purity and everything, they're beautiful. How much do they support, like wildlife? I'm not aware of animals feeding off lichen very much, I don't think it has much nutrients in it?

Sam: Not too much at a macro level, but if you were to delve into that microscopic world, they are absolute keystone species in terms of forming the bedrock for so many invertebrates for so much sort of microbes. But they're also functionally, and this is something I'm I'm really passionate about, is looking at these forests in terms of what they can give to us functionally and the environment functionally, they are really good at fixing nitrogen. They're very, very good at fixing carbon, but but so in terms, that's what that's what makes temperate rainforest really good in terms of climate change mitigation is they hold that water, but they also are incredible carbon stores far more carbon is stored in these forests than traditional forests in the UK.

Adam: And that's lichens playing a big role in this?

Sam: A huge part, yeah, because of the pure, like the biomass of those lichens and mosses.

Adam: Ohh interesting. OK, so where are we going?

Sam: So I would quite like to go down to that river.

Adam: I'd love to go down to the river! Can I just ask, we're not going that way, are we??

Sam: No, I think we're gonna, that's one we may drive down, I think.

Adam: Drive down there?? No no we're not going to drive down there, that's not possible! *both laugh*

Sam: Yeah, we might have to go to a scenic detour around.

Adam: OK, well, there let's go down to the river. You have to lead. You look like...

Sam: So I think if we head up back to the car, shoot down, yeah.

Adam: OK. Ohh I see. OK, OK. But we're not driving down this this hill.

Sam: No, no, I think let's go down to the main Dart actually and then you can...

Adam: OK. And then get and get back, OK. Brilliant. We have come down to the river, remind me what the river is called?

Sam: This is the Webburn.

Adam: The Webburn, which leads into the Dart. We are on proper Hobbit territory now. A moss-covered stone bridge over the Webburn. We passed a little a beautiful little cottage, actually there's a number of beautiful cottages here. So explain a bit about where we are.

Sam: So we're stood on the Webburn, the Webburn watercourse and just behind us is the confluence of where it enters the Dart River and this kind of where it feeds into our aspirations for the restoration of the site. It's what many people would consider to be quite a natural looking river or natural looking watercourse. But this really as you can see it's very straight, it's very cut down into into the ground. So we call that incision and that's a product of centuries of draining and of artificial domestication of this watercourse to allow the land around it to be drier, which makes it more kind of productive for forestry.

Adam: So that's not natural?

Sam: No.

Adam: Are you gonna do anything about that? I feel like a teacher, 'are you going to do anything about that?'!

Sam: *laughs* That that is the plan.

Adam: How how do you change, I mean, the river has cut, therefore quite a a deep edge into the land. What would you be able to do to to change that then?

Sam: Yeah. So a couple of years ago I went out to the Pacific Northwest, Canada, Vancouver Island to see their temperate rainforest and have a look at how old growth sort of ancient temperate rainforests function, but also how they restore them. And they, I asked them to take me to a river that was their best example of a really healthy rainforest river with really good salmon populations with great biodiversity that would have been unaffected by humans. And they took me to a place called Lost Shoe Creek. And and from the bottom of the watercourse where it entered the sea to the head waters, it was, you couldn't see the water. It was absolutely covered in wood, so huge trees that had fallen in, trees bank to bank, pinned against the bank. And what that does is it creates a much more dynamic river system that doesn't go in a straight line, but also holds back a lot of the gravel with the sediment and the silt that in this kind of river is making its way to the ocean. And causing a lot of damage.

Adam: So it's allowing or maybe placing actual dead trees into into the water and we can see one tree's already there, presumably that just naturally fell in.

Sam: That's right. Yeah. So if we left this for 1,000 years, it would fill, it would be effectively be a giant log jam, and we'd start to get a lot of that naturalised process happening. And then you get much more biodiversity because there's more invertebrates in the river, there's more shelter for fish and birds, there's more habitat. But what we're effectively planning on doing is is doing something what people call stage zero restoration, so taking, accelerating that that thousand-year process and taking it back to a more naturalised river.

Adam: It's such a a spot. I think it's time for a bit of social media video, so I'll film that and you can see that on the Woodland Trust and my sites, and then we'll crack on. Sorry, I know this is really important, but this is an amazing fallen tree over a drystone wall covered in moss, I mean, I just had to stop for a moment. Look, you talked about lichen. I know, I ask you a question then stop you answering it *both laugh*. I love this lichen, it's all on this tree. It is really, really beautiful.

Sam: So this is called seastorm lichen which is one of the few lichens that has actually a romantic sort of English name that isn't Latin.

Adam: Wow. Well, very cool. Whilst you're talking, I'm gonna take a photo. OK. Yeah, go on, seastorm lichen.

Sam: Yeah, and and so a lot of the lichens will, as you can see, grow on the branches where the light is greater. So there's almost a canopy world of biodiversity up there, and what we're doing by increasing the light levels is, is drawing these lichens down to the forest floor by increasing the light levels. But this is a really, really good example of the kind of levels of deadwood we actually want to aspire to. So in, as you can see, in most of the forest, it's completely denuded of deadwood. So we'd be lucky if we get sort of 5 cubic metres of wood per hectare. In the forest of, the temperate rainforests of Canada, they have sort of 600 cubic metres a hectare of deadwood. So you you could barely even move through their forest.

Adam: And that's super, because often people want the deadwood cleared cause you go, 'oh well it's untidy', but that's a sort of oasis of of biodiversity.

Sam: That's right. It's a whole layer of ecology that we're missing from our forests. And we recently did a study on something called the blue ground beetle, which is a an endemic rare species to temperate rainforests. We didn't know where they went in the day, so we didn't really know anything about them, they're very elusive. They come out at night, walk up the trees, and they reflect the moon off of their blue, kind of shiny carapace. They're our biggest beetle. So we did a study with Exeter University where we put GPS tracking backpacks on them.

Adam: On a beetle?

Sam: On a beetle, to find out where they went. And lo and behold, we found that they were going into these deadwood habitats and so it just it just shone a light on how important increasing deadwood in these forests is for all of those species.

Adam: Amazing. All right. I I do encourage you to follow the Woodland Trust's social media, Insta and all the rest of them and my Bluesky and Twitter or X or whatever it is you wanna do. And I'm now gonna take a photo which hopefully you'll see on any of that social media. So do follow them all. And we're going to take a pause as I pose *laughs*. Right, I'm back from my photographic expedition. Right. So you can answer the question again now about this public debate about access and and what have you. Go on, you lead on whilst we're talking.

Sam: So yeah, Dartmoor is really kind of the centre of gravity for a wider story around public, an increasing demand from the public to access land for wellbeing, recreation, connection to nature, that has been kind of growing here, particularly in this area.

Adam: Right.

Sam: There are, I think we actually sorry, we do need to go that way, I think they've blocked the path.

Adam: OK fair enough.

Sam: We're not having to scramble.

Adam: And I think we're going back to where we came from. Alright. Although that path there looks blocked.

Sam: This one looks good. Yeah.

Adam: Oh OK.

Sam: Go through this end.

Adam: Through the little stone wall. OK. Ruby's following doing social media. Ohh OK. Yeah, sorry, carry on.

Sam: So, I suppose the concern of some people might be that increasing footfall, public access to these really important fragments of temperate rainforest, it could have a damaging effect on the biodiversity here. But the reality is that in order for people to connect with, understand and care about nature, they need to have access to it. And so we need to bring people into these habitats in a sensitive and considered way to educate people about them, but the other key thing is we need to expand these habitats. So we're part of something called the South West Rainforest Alliance. And our goal collectively is to increase the amount of temperate rainforest in Devon and Cornwall, to triple it by 2050.

Adam: OK. I mean that's worth pausing on that for a moment. That's an extraordinary task. I mean it sounds a bit, I have to say I'm a bit sceptical about that, it sounds like you plucked that out the air. How on earth would you get to tripling the cover you've got?

Sam: Well, we think we can do that mostly through buffering existing temporate rainforest, so planting around them which can then make those bigger, better, more connected, but also just by introducing trees into farmed landscapes but not in a way that damages the farming. So agroforestry. But also the inclusion of hedgerows that connect up those fragments and there's been a lot of work that's being done currently in partnership with Plymouth University to model how we would do that effectively.

Adam: And the other thing that strikes me when we talk about ancient woodland, we're talking about, well, we can't create ancient woodlands, the clue's in the name, it's got to be ancient. It is different for temperate rainforests, isn't it? These things which I've heard about are achievable in a relatively short period of time. Is that right?

Sam: That's right. So we think we can create new temperate rainforest within our lifetime. So within a kind of 40-50 year woodland establishment phase and as part of the Rainforest Recovery Project, we have a strand of work that we're calling the temperate rainforest creation trials and that includes long term scientific research to tell us how best we can create rainforest the quickest. So is it doing closed canopy woodlands like this or is it individual trees in farmland? Or is it open space woodlands or maybe even natural regeneration?

Adam: Amazing. We're by the river. Let's move on with our tales from the riverbank. One thing I I wanted to ask you, I arrived here last night. And I met well, an old friend of mine called Chris Salisbury, who runs a local sort of adventure, an ecological company, taking people for adventures in the woods and telling stories and all sorts of really interesting things, and he was telling me two things that he's noted. One is the reintroduction of pine martens which I think is talked about, but also he's seen wild boar in these woods and I've never heard of that. Are those, have have you come across those stories?

Sam: Yes, so we were actually involved in the reintroduction of pine martens last year and that was a partnership between us and Devon Wildlife Trust and various other charities. And and that was a sort of very controlled planned, strategic reintroduction of a species that's been really successful. We've brought the public along with us, and they're now part of that increasingly biodiverse and resilient temperate rainforest landscape.

Adam: Right before we move on to wild boar, just educate me, what is a pine marten? Not sure, not entirely sure I know what one is.

Sam: A pine marten is a mustelid, so it's in the same family as sort of the badger, the stoat, the weasel.

Adam: Right, what's it look like?

Sam: It's it's sort of the size of a small cat, it's brown with a white bib and it looks quite a lot like a weasel, but it's larger, but they're very much arboreal mammals, so they spend most of their time in the trees.

Adam: And were they native to this land?

Sam: Yes they were.

Adam: Hunted out were they?

Sam: Hunted to extinction for their pelts and and things like that. Yeah.

Adam: So you're reintroducing them. How successful has that been?

Sam: That's been really successful. So we've reintroduced 15 animals to Dartmoor last year and we think that that will be enough of a seed population for them to start spreading naturally now.

Adam: OK. And I've heard about what, the reintroduction in other parts of the country of pine martens. Wild boar. A a harder issue I would have thought 'cause these are quite big beasts?

Sam: Yes.

Adam: Did, did any, presumably the Trust didn't introduce them? No.

Sam: No. So they haven't been, in the same way as pine martens were, formally introduced. There's been more of a sort of natural creep, or in some cases, so there's a term that people use now called 'beaver bombing', which which people use completely straight faced in a lot of circles now. And that is effectively guerilla reintroduction of species.

Adam: Right. OK. So these are just people who feel that they should be rewilded and just did it without any any authority or talking to the local community they just brought them in?

Sam: Exactly without going through that sort of more defined process.

Adam: And and look, clearly this is not a Woodland Trust policy, so I'm not asking you to defend it, but but the effect of that, I mean, have you noticed anything?

Sam: I think, I mean, it's a huge subject, but I think in general, if you don't bring communities along with you by educating them, by mitigating the effect of a species, it it can damage the movement in in the longer term. The other thing I'd say about boar and those larger sort of herbivores, which would have been a really important part of our ecosystem for diversifying them and keeping that process going, they will really struggle unless we have bigger, better, more connected woodlands that are more natural anyway.

Adam: Right. I understand. So we're just going through talking about this being the rainforest, but it has been amazingly dry in the spring and now you can hear that in the crunchy undergrowth of very dry leaves. You're gonna, I'm I'm an idiot anyway, but I'm concentrating on too many things so I've forgotten the name of the river for the third time *laughs*.

Sam: It's the Webburn.

Adam: The Webburn, why can't I remember the Webburn? All right. We've come down to the Webburn, to the riverbank side. It's beautifully clear this water, isn't it? There I mean it, it's it's wonderful clear. I so want to stand in that and then I'll have wet feet for the rest of the day and the journey back to London. So I'm not going to do that. How much of a threat is this sort of environment under?

Sam: So temperate rainforest once covered about 20% of the UK and they would have clothed our western seaboard which receives that amazing sort of oceanic rainfall and temperature we've been talking about. That's been reduced now to about 2% in the UK.

Adam: OK, from 20 to 2%?

Sam: From 20 to 2, so 90% loss.

Adam: Over what sort of period?

Sam: So we're talking about millennia really. So this is they would have been at their zenith about 5,000, 6,000 years ago during the Bronze Age and that progressive multi-generation story of increasing farming, of draining, of forestry, has led to the fragmentation that we see today. In Devon and Cornwall, we think it would have covered about 75%. That's now been reduced to about 8%. So a similar 90% loss both regionally and nationally.

Adam: And are you optimistic that that's about to change? Are we now seeing a different story?

Sam: I feel really optimistic, but mostly that's because I think we're facing a lot of these holistic problems at the moment around the biodiversity crisis, around climate change, and I think rainforests are an actually incredibly cheap, scalable way of restoring nature, which will help us with the biodiversity crisis, but also protect communities from climate change. By doing some of this rewetting work, by increasing increasing tree cover, we can massively reduce flooding and massively mitigate the effect of drought on our farming and on our communities as it gets worse. We are hoping to raise £2.8 million to help us achieve the goals we have here and and the site will be open once we've achieved that goal towards the end of the year. And people can go to woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest to find more about that appeal.

Adam: So just repeat that website again so if people want, if they, if you've got your pen or your computer keyboard ready, here is the website to go to.

Sam: Thats woodlandtrust.org.uk/southwest

Adam: And they can learn learn more about it, but also contribute there can they?

Sam: That's right. Yeah. And if they want to learn more about the Rainforest Recovery Project, we are launching a website this week called rainforestrecovery.org.uk.

Adam: So by the time you hear this podcast, all of that will be available to you at the moment I can edit it all together. It is an amazing, amazing site. I am really privileged to be here. What a wonderful place. Sam, thank you very much indeed.

Sam: You're welcome.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you are listening. And do give us a review and a rating. If you want to find out more about our woods and those that are close to you, check out the Woodland Trust website. Just head to the visiting woods pages. Thank you.

Spring is in the air! Join us at Londonthorpe Wood, Lincolnshire to enjoy the wellbeing benefits of woods while using all our senses to check for signs of spring. We seek out frogspawn, song thrushes and blackthorn blossom for Nature's Calendar, a citizen science phenology project which tracks the effects of weather and climate change on nature across the UK.

Keeping your eyes and ears peeled to record for Nature's Calendar doesn't just support science. Discover new research that shows how engaging all our senses on a woodland walk is good for our wellbeing, and how different levels of biodiversity in each wood can impact the positive effects of being in nature.

Don't forget to rate us and subscribe! Learn more about the Woodland Trust at woodlandtrust.org.uk

Transcript

You are listening to Woodland Walks, a podcast for the Woodland Trust presented by Adam Shaw. We protect and plant trees for people to enjoy, to fight climate change and to help wildlife thrive.

Adam: Well, this month I'm off to Grantham in Lincolnshire, which is a bit to the right of Nottingham and quite a bit below Sheffield, if you're not clear on your geography. Anyway, I'm here to investigate a Woodland Trust project called Nature's Calendar, which tracks how the seasons are changing over time and if, for instance, the timing of spring is starting earlier. Now, if that is happening, that's not a minor thing, because all of nature depends on, well, the rest of all of nature. So if one thing changes, it can cause big changes everywhere. Now, this is all part of citizen science, and if you don't know that phrase or haven't heard it before, it means the data is collected from people of all ages, backgrounds, abilities, not necessarily by scientists, in fact, probably not by scientists. Anyone can volunteer and the volunteering work is incredibly important. Volunteers have been recording the changing seasons with Nature's Calendar for 20 years, and the database they have built contains 2.9 million records. It's believed to be the longest written biological record of its kind in the UK, and it's used by researchers from across the world to explore the effects of weather and climate on timings in wildlife. And a brief word for those who like new words, here's one for you: phenology. That's what this project is all about. The study of seasonal changes in plants and animals from year to year. Phenology. Now, that word was invented by a botanist called Charles Morren in around 1849. But even before they had a name for it, people were busy recording what was happening in nature and Britain was really at the forefront of much of this work. Robert Marsham was Britain's first phenologist, doing his work before the name was invented for his field of study, and he recorded his quote 'indications of spring' from around the year 1736. Anyway, all of that is a huge historical meander so let's get to the events of today with a real meander around Londonthorpe Woods with one of the Woodland Trust's experts.

Here we are. Whenever you're ready!

Sally: Okay, I'm Sally Bavin. I'm a monitoring and evaluation adviser for the Woodland Trust and we are currently at Londonthorpe Woods, near Grantham.

Adam: Right, well, thank you very much for joining me here. It's a chilly day, but we're good on the, we're good on the rain for the moment. So what is the purpose of what we're doing here? Where are you taking me today and why?

Sally: We've we've come out to the woods today to enjoy some of the wellbeing benefits of visiting woodlands and particularly looking out for signs of spring using all of our senses. So, yeah, it should be quite a quite an enjoyable one.

Adam: Fantastic. And this fits in with part of a campaign the Woodland Trust is running. Is that right?

Sally: Absolutely, yes, so we have at the moment we're asking people to look out for the vital signs of spring, as we're calling it. So we've picked out three things of interest that are frogspawn, the song of the song thrush returning for the spring, and the first blackthorn flower.

Adam: Right. And that's what we're going to try and spot today.

Sally: We will have a go. Yeah, we might be a bit early for some, but this is the the interesting thing to see what's out and about at the moment.

Adam: And on a previous podcast we were here together looking to sort of identify trees. I'm going to be super impressed if you can identify birdsong as well. Are you good at that?

Sally: Well, I know the song thrush. That's the one we're listening out for *laughs* so I'm not too bad. You'll have to test me as we go along.

Adam: Okay, so we're at Londonthorpe Woods, which is, happens to be near Grantham, which is where the Woodland Trust is actually based. So all very lovely. Which way?

Sally: I assume we're editing lots of…

Adam: No, no, no, all this confusion is, is in *both laugh*. That way.

Sally: Okay.

Adam: Right. If you're hearing noises off, it's because Alex from the Trust is joining us. She's part of the brains of the operation and also doing social media videos. So I'm gonna look particularly daft with my, headset on, talking into a little box. Anyway, so, okay well, we're already leaving the woodlands. That was a quick visit. We're crossing the road. Is it because there's a pond over here?

Sally: Yes. So the first thing we're going to look for, is frogspawn. And as we are walking towards the pond, I could tell you about some research that the Woodland Trust has funded, but let's wait till we get away from the road.

Adam: I was gonna say we just crossed not a very busy road that got very busy as we were crossing it. Okay, let's go through here, away from the road and into another bit of woodland.

Sally: So I think to get to the pond, I think it's that way. And then that way.

Adam: Okay, you're not filling me with confidence. You've only taken two directions, and you're not sure of either of them at the moment, but okay *both laugh*

Sally: Yeah. So as we're walking along, the idea is to be using all of your senses to engage with the landscape that we're in. So I've just seen a robin fly past there, but, yeah so…

Adam: But robins aren't a sign of spring?

Sally: They sing all year round, they're a good constant through the winter. Thank goodness for the robin otherwise we wouldn't really have much birdsong in the winter at all.

Adam: And they look lovely, robins, but actually they're they're quite territorial, they've, a lot of them come to my bird feeder in my garden and they're, they're proper brave! I mean, I'll go out and the robin looks at me like, come on, get the nuts out, get the seed, they're not scared. They're quite territorial, looks like quite territorial birds, I think. But go on, you you were wanting to tell me?

Sally: So one of the birds that we're listening for is the song thrush. That is because, it's a bird, which generally, it starts singing early spring, and it's a species that's been recorded for Nature's Calendar for many years now. So it's one that we're asking people to look out, to listen out for even, engaging all your senses, because it's quite a distinctive song, so if we do hear one, then that would be great.

Adam: And then where do they go then, in the winter, then, migratory, migratory, oh, gosh, I can't even say that word properly. But anyway, they're not always here, perhaps is a better way to describe them.

Sally: We do have resident song thrush, but it's the singing behavior that starts in the spring.

Adam: Oh does it? And is that all about attracting, you know, mates?

Sally: Yeah, yeah, it's the the springtime rush for romance, yeah.

Adam: Right okay and is it the boys or the girls doing the singing? Or is it both?

Sally: I believe it's the males, but, yeah, I'll have to check that one.

Adam: Okay. I'll check.

Sally: It's usually the males.

Adam: Is it? Okay.

Sally: But the robins are the exception where females and males both sing.

Adam: Actually, do you know what? I've got such a bad memory, but I, we came here, and I remember stopping at this tree because I think you were explaining to me, was it, a little, I've forgotten the name, but the things that you crush up and make ink with that Shakespeare used to write in.

Sally: Ah, oak galls.

Adam: Oak galls! Oak galls. And I think they were around here. No, this is not an oak?

Sally: No…

Adam: Okay. But this is, that's right, I think oak galls, which was a great little episode all about, and I've got one on my desk still from this woodland.

Sally: Oh, you've not used it for writing yet?

Adam: I haven't ground it up to try and make ink, no. Anyway, sorry, I was interrupting. So yes so so the birds don't leave us, but they do start singing, right? A very muddy bit.

Sally: Very muddy.

Adam: Okay, you might hear some squelching. Oh, blimey.

Sally: So that's some good sensory experience there as well all the squelchy mud.

Adam: Okay, so tell me a bit about, this woodland that we're in whilst we're going up to find the pond.

Sally: So this is Londonthorpe Wood. It's the closest woodland to our Grantham head office, which is lovely. It was it's a woodland creation site, but it's getting, on I think it's roughly about 30 years, probably since it was planted now. So, it's really, you know, well established now, we can start to see lots of different types of habitats. We've got some glades, which is open areas within the woodland, with some nice grassland habitat. There's some dense areas, like these sort of thickets of blackthorn, which we could be checking for blossom. I can't actually see any at the moment yet. I think we're perhaps a bit too too early.

Adam: Well, we're going just off the beaten track a bit here into a lovely pond area where, oh, it's it's actually, this is an outdoor classroom it says, so we'll go through this gate and walking up here, there's a good sized pond and a platform, I've lost the word, a wooden platform so you can sort of stand out a bit and it's here that we're hoping to see frogspawn, one of the early signs of spring, even though it's a bit chilly today. So we'll have a, yeah, I'm already getting a shake of the head so okay. Which is a shame, because it looks like there are no frogspawn here at the moment. So one of the early signs of spring is not here. But I suppose just the absence of that spring, is itself interesting, I mean, and in itself, one observation, of course, isn't scientifically significant, but actually, I think what is perhaps really important is that, global warming, changing seasons aren't linear. So we're also getting we may be getting an early spring, but also we're getting more volatile periods perhaps. So it's just up and down. And perhaps that's what we're seeing anyway. No, no frogspawn today. Let's move on.

Sally: It's an unusually hilly wood for Lincolnshire.

Adam: Yeah. Oh, right. Is Lincolnshire, meant to be fairly flat?

Sally: A lot of it's flat, yeah, but Grantham is on this, sort of geological feature called the Lincoln Edge, and it's sort of one big long hill that runs through the county, sort of south to north. And we just happened to be, have found it to climb.

Adam: Right. So what is the purpose of this then? Presumably it's partly scientific because you're getting data from a from a lot of people around the country. Is it something else apart from that?

Sally: Nature's Calendar as a project? Yeah, so, like you say, it's it's primarily it was set up to be a phenology project. So studying how the changing climate is affecting the changing seasonal events and affecting what time of year they occur. But it's also a really good opportunity for, because obviously it's volunteers that, you know, look out for these things and we need eyes and ears all over the country looking out for these things, and something that you get back from it as a volunteer, is that opportunity to have that bit of extra motivation to keep your eyes and ears out, looking at nature regularly, and with a sense of purpose to do that, which I think is a really good opportunity for people to, to help their own wellbeing. So it just kind of really fits well with what we know from research is, the way to get the most out of time in nature, which is using your senses to engage with it, finding meaning in it, and connecting with other people around it as well. So you become part of this, you know, community of people contributing and giving back as well. So you're providing your data that's, you know, an opportunity for you to, to contribute to something bigger than yourself and to, to have that sense of purpose, with what you're doing. So it just brings it more, yeah, it brings it alive for people, I think, because a walk in the woods, if you're not necessarily engaging with your surroundings, you could miss a lot of the beneficial species that that research showed when people engage with them, they really benefit from.

Adam: Brilliant.

Sally: I, I, one thing, oh, shall we sit on this log, that'd be a nice little, I mean, it looks a bit prickly around it, but nice to just sit and chat because we've had a lot of hills!

Adam: It does have a lot of, yeah, we have had a lot of hills.

Sally: So the research that the Woodland Trust funded, I just wanted to talk about what we're hoping to actually do with these findings and sort of why it's all important. So, the mapping that the researchers at the University of Kent have done, to identify those hotspots of, where woodlands are really rich in biodiversity and the biodiversity that people relate to for wellbeing experiences, it really it fits in with the Woodland Trust's focus on being really interested and driven to improve the quality of woodlands rather than just the quantity. So while we do need to increase woodland cover, as you know, just pure hectarage, we need more woodlands, it's really about the quality of those woodlands that we're creating and protecting and restoring woodlands that we already have. So this research really shows how it's important for people that the quality of woodlands is there. Just it just shows how important things like our new woodland creation guide are, which, set out guidelines for how to create a new woodland in a way that's most likely to help it develop into a woodland that's going to be thriving with wildlife in the future.

Adam: And what sort of person gets that guide, is that just for professional sort of people who are setting up massive woodlands across the country, or is it something you you might be able to do as a community project or if you've got a large bit of land yourself?

Sally: Yeah so it's available on our website so anybody can download it and it's aimed at anybody who's creating a woodland so the principles can be taken on board and scaled up or down to whatever's necessary. So, yeah, that's available on our website.

Adam: And, and in the time that, that this Nature's Calendar has been running, have you noticed any differences?

Sally: I've been with the Woodland Trust for five years, and so I've been recording frogspawn as my main…

Adam: That's your, that's your go to.

Sally: Yeah and I like it because it's very, well it's literally black and white *laughs*. You can, it's there or it's not there, one day it's there. So…

Adam: And what, have you noticed anything in that time?

Sally: Yeah, in my, I mean, a five year span, I suppose there's, there's quite variation and this is obviously just my one record, so it's anecdotal but but there are analysis provided on the website of all the woodlands, the, the Nature's Calendar data and yeah, so I think the first time I recorded it was about 10 March, something like that. And in some years I've recorded it as early as Valentine's Day so that's already past now so this year is obviously a later one. So you know, it, it shows that there is that, the the data from Nature's Calendar is part of it contributes to the State of UK Climate report and the JNCC Spring Index, which is the kind of, the measure that they use to look at the effect of climate change on biodiversity.

Adam: Sorry what's the JNCC?

Sally: JNCC is the… Joint Nature Conservation Council. That's probably, that might be wrong!

Adam: Maybe, something like that. We don't guarantee that by the way, if you're listening, it's just what we think. Anyway, okay, the JNCC…*both laugh*

Sally: It's a sort of government organisation.

Adam: Doesn't matter, I'm sure they're very important. Anyway, the JNCC, I interrupted your your train of thought. The JNCC says what?

Sally: The spring index has moved forwards by more than eight days over I think it's the last 30 years, I think is the data that they use.

Adam: And is that a lot? Is that significant? I'm not sure?

Sally: It's it's significant when you think that birds will time their nesting, to within a peak kind of abundance of caterpillars, which are all also dependent on the phenology of leaves emerging.

Adam: And an eight day difference makes a difference?

Sally: So yes, yes, studies of birds like blue tits, which we've said are, you know, so important for people's wellbeing to be able to see birds like that around, yeah studies have shown that they do suffer in years where, the, the leaves burst too early. That means the caterpillars come out too early, and then they are not in sync with that, pattern for when they're, raising their chicks in the nest because they need a huge amount of food to be able to raise to, to raise a clutch of, of chicks. And they do it over a spell of just, you know, 2 or 3 weeks. So a week is a big difference when you think that that's...

Adam: Right so that makes it, okay, that's it in context. So they're they're really peak feeding for these young chicks is 2 or 3 weeks. So if, if spring is moving eight days that's over half your feeding time to get a sort of young chick away and stable, is actually there's no food. That's the difference between living and not living, presumably that's a big deal?

Sally: Yep, yeah, exactly. And you know, the sort of potential knock on consequences of food chains being disrupted could go much beyond there but I think there's a lot more that we don't know yet. And that's probably just as concerning as what we do know.

Adam: Okay, yeah, I didn't, I have to say when you say eight days over 30 years, I went, well, I don't know, how significant is that. But when you say they've only got two weeks to feed these chicks at their peak, that suddenly makes it much more worrying.

Sally: Yeah, absolutely.

Adam: Okay. All right we've had our little rest.

Sally: I think we're getting rained on now aren't we.

Adam: Oh are we? Oh no.

Sally: I don't know I thought I felt a few spots.

Adam: Right. Where to now? Now why am I asking you, you've no idea!

Sally: I think this takes us to, this takes us back.

Adam: You've no idea. I've got to stop asking you.

Sally: We, I can remember on the…

Adam: We're just going to go forward. And if you, if you find this at some future period, send our love to our families and loved ones.

Sally: Yeah we're still wandering.

Adam: Yeah we're wandering and we just left this under a tree.

Sally: Oh, yeah, I definitely felt rain.

Adam: Okay. A little bit more mud. Whoops. Yeah. My first slide. Oooh.

Sally: Oh look at these. Look at the snowdrops.

Adam: Oh yeah. Snowdrops.

Sally: Now that's a Nature's Calendar event that you can record. But because they're already out we've missed it.

Adam: Alright. Oh gosh I saw that little, there's loads of snowdrops! They're all over there. So that's an early sign of spring.

Sally: Yeah so next year you have to keep an eye out before, you know, in like January.

Adam: Oh so it's not a sign, it comes before spring really. The snowdrops end of winter really.

Sally: Yeah. Well, it all depends where you sort of draw the line, doesn't it? It's all a continuum, really.

Adam: Aren't they beautiful? Gosh.

Sally: And for Nature's Calendar what you, the the key point at which you know, okay, they're officially open is when the flower is actually open like that and you can see in the middle, not, just when they poke through and they're still closed like that one.

Adam: Right.

Sally: Yeah. That's a lovely display of them.

Adam: Yeah. All over. Look, they're on the other side of the path and all these brambles as well. Very nice. It's emerging now.

Sally: Top of the hill, can see, we've got a vantage point now, see where we are, out of the woods. Okay. I think that must be about their peak. You know, we're seeing them on their best, best few days.

Adam: So downhill now? He says hopefully.

Sally: Yeah. Downward stretch.

Adam: Okay. All right. We're going downhill. And whoa ho ho ho ho ho ho! That's like the Vicar of Dibley when she just disappears down a hole, which is much, well it's not quite as dramatic as that, just my foot went into it, not my whole body, but, you know, I don't know if you can hear this, but there we are. It's going through my shoes. I've got wet feet. Whoa ho ho! *both laughing*

Sally: This is a wet bit. We should have brought some tarpaulin just to slide down this hill shouldn't we.

Adam: Sorry? Whoa! Okay, we're all going over. Oh ho ho ho ho!

Sally: You're doing the splits.

Adam: Give me a hand, I've got my legs going different directions. Thank you very much. Thank you very much. Whoa, oh whoa! *both laughing* Sorry! Sorry sorry sorry sorry about that.

Sally: Oh, dear. Perhaps this was a mistake.

Adam: It's not just me.

Sally: I wonder if there's such a thing as mud skis.

Adam: Yes. There we are. Go on then, so yeah, so what's the…

Sally: What, why, why does it all matter?

Adam: Why does it matter, all of this then?

Sally: Well, for the Woodland Trust, it's really important to our vision and our mission, we want to create a world where woods and trees thrive for people and for nature. And so there's been quite a lot of work looking at the ecosystem services that are provided by woodlands in terms of carbon and flooding and all of those sorts of things. And a lot of mapping work has been done already to help us prioritise, you know, where is it best to create, protect and restore woods to deliver those particular priorities of different ecosystem services? But this is the first time that human wellbeing has been kind of mapped in that way, to be able to provide insight into, you know, these are the areas that need to be targeted and prioritised to increase biodiversity, particularly in areas where people have not got such high quality woodlands to visit necessarily.

Adam: So an important piece of work scientifically, but a great thing for people to be involved in as well.

Sally: Exactly. And and another thing that was really an interesting finding, so the researchers analysed their map of woodland wellbeing quality against the indices of multiple deprivation, which is some socio-economic data that's in a sort of mapped, format. And they looked to see whether there was a relationship between the quality of woodlands in an area and the socio-economic status. And they found that there is a relationship. So unfortunately, areas which are have a lower socio-economic status also tend to have the lower quality woodlands, which is, you know, it's not fair. And it's, something that, you know, it's opened our eyes to that to now allow us to think about, you know, how is it best to to sort of consider that when we're targeting where to create woodlands and enhance biodiversity in general. So, so yeah, it's really important for people I think, this is this is a really important piece of work, to help us deliver for, for people and nature.

Adam: And if people want to get involved in spotting the early signs of spring, how should they do that?

Sally: You can go to the Woodland Trust website and go to Nature's Calendar, you'll find the link on there, and there'll be all the information there about how to sign up and what different events you can record and how to do it. Lots of information on the website. *dog barks*

Adam: Wonderful. We've got a keen dog who wants to get involved clearly as well. And so go to the Woodland Trust website and you can follow them on social media, Insta and the rest, no doubt as well. Thank you very much.

Sally: Thank you for coming on a walk with us.

Adam: Thank you. I returned to the car park muddier, a little wetter, but we have missed most of the rain so that is really good.

Sally: It's just starting now. Thank you.

Thank you for listening to the Woodland Trust Woodland Walks. Join us next month when Adam will be taking another walk in the company of Woodland Trust staff, partners and volunteers. And don't forget to subscribe to the series on iTunes or wherever you're listening to us. And do give us a review and a rating. And why not send us a recording of your favourite Woodland Walk to be included in a future podcast? Keep it to a maximum of five minutes and please tell us what makes your woodland walk special or send us an email with details of your favourite walk and what makes it special to you. Send any audio files to [email protected] and we look forward to hearing from you.