In this part one of two conversation, Renee Swanson and Jerry Wise delve into the complexities of narcissism and the concept of self-differentiation. Jerry shares his extensive experience in family systems therapy and explains how self-differentiation allows individuals to grow into their true selves without absorbing the toxicity of others. They discuss the loss of self often experienced by those raised in narcissistic families, the internal messages that keep individuals stuck, and the distinctions between healthy and unhealthy guilt and shame. The conversation emphasizes the importance of personal growth and healing in overcoming the effects of narcissism.

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