In this episode, philosopher Michelle Panchuk joins me to discuss the "just world hypothesis" — the belief that people get what they deserve in life, similar to karma. Michelle, whose early scholarly work on spiritual abuse helped inform my own research on measuring spiritual abuse, shares how the just world hypothesis can subtly infiltrate spiritual teachings with the belief that God will always offer a sense of His presence during difficult times — implying that those who don't feel God's presence must be spiritually deficient.

This creates what Michelle calls a "spiritual version" of the just world hypothesis, adding layers of shame and self-doubt to existing suffering. Particularly harmful for survivors of spiritual abuse, this belief contradicts historical accounts of devoted believers experiencing spiritual darkness. 

In the patron-only second half, we explore the neurobiology of spiritual experience and how spiritual abuse impacts both religious practice and critical thinking.

Michelle's Faculty Page

Highlights

02:53 The Just World Hypothesis Explained

08:57 God's Silence and Spiritual Relationship

17:46 The Uneven Distribution of Spiritual Experiences

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this episode, I sat down with Chuck DeGroat, known for his work on narcissism in church contexts, for a wide-ranging conversation about the intersection of narcissistic patterns and religious communities. Chuck shared insights from his clinical experience about how narcissism often emerges as a trauma response and explained the crucial distinction between narcissistic tendencies and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. We explored how narcissistic leadership patterns can manifest across the theological spectrum, from conservative to progressive spaces, and how congregations adopt collective defensive postures that both attract and reinforce narcissistic leadership styles. Using Mars Hill Church as a case study, we examined how an "at war with culture" mentality can drive church growth while simultaneously undermining empathy and authentic community engagement. The conversation concluded with a rich exploration of psychological and theological integration, drawing parallels between Internal Family Systems therapy and how different religious traditions handle internal contradictions. This discussion proved so fruitful that we've planned a follow-up episode focusing specifically on spiritual harm and abuse, which will be available to Patreon subscribers.

Chucks Website | Chuckdegroat.net

Episodes Mentioned:

Episode #187 with Molly Lacroix | Un-Shaming Each Part of Ourselves

Highlights:

11:20 Narcissism in Church Communities

24:33 Theological Connections Between Empathy and Narcissism

32:34 Narcissism and Church Dynamics

43:30 Spiritual Abuse and Community Dynamics

50:35 Integration and Multiplicity in Spirituality

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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It’s time for another Generation Gap Culture Hour where I sit down with Josh Gilbert and Tony Jones to talk about current culture from across our 20-year age perspectives.

In today’s episode we talk about:

In the patron-only second half, we get more in-depth discussing Joe Rogan's recent interactions with Christian figures, and examining the intersection of apologetics, early Christian history, and religious experience.

Highlights:

05:45 Political Concerns and TikTok Ban Discussions

14:47 Dude Lit, Books, Movies & TV Shows of the Year

23:53 Joe Rogan's Cultural Impact and Christianity

Best of Book:

Byung-Chul Han: A Critical Introduction (Josh)

We Were Soldiers Once... and Young (Tony)

Best of Series/TV Show:

Ripley (Dan)

Keep Sweet: Pray and Obey (Tony)

Presumed Innocent (Josh)

Rock - Spotify

Rock - Apple Music

Pop - Spotify

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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I sat down with Micha Boyett, author of Blessed Are the Rest of Us and host of The Slow Way podcast, to explore the tension between millennial evangelical dreams and the realities of modern parenthood. We dove into how our generation's almost cinematic vision of "changing the world" manifested through movements like Invisible Children, Shane Claiborne's work, and TOMS Shoes – a fascinating confluence of entrepreneurship and world-saving ambitions. Micha shared her journey from being a 13-year-old Southern Baptist girl with limited ministry options to navigating suburban motherhood and raising a child with both Down syndrome and autism. We discussed how her experience has transformed her understanding of meaning, purpose, and what it means to live a life of impact. 

In the Patron-only second half, our conversation deepens into questions of disability, human value, and finding new meaning in the Beatitudes.

Micha's Instagram | @michaboyett

Ace's Instagram | @acefaceismyfriend

Highlights:

04:54 Generational Expectations and Identity

20:13 The Complexity of Disability in Society

30:04 Anxiety and Parenting Challenges

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this timely conversation with returning guest Bonnie Kristian, we explore libertarianism and its evolving role in today's political landscape. Moving beyond the dated "socially liberal, fiscally conservative" cliché, we discuss how true libertarianism centers on skepticism of government power, while distinguishing it from a newer "folk libertarianism" emerging among younger Americans. Bonnie helps clarify how traditional libertarians focus specifically on limiting state power and coercion, whereas this new wave represents more of a cultural backlash against elite institutions. Through our discussion of government intervention, institutional trust, and policy, we explore the challenge of maintaining necessary social structures while remaining appropriately skeptical of institutional overreach. This conversation illuminates why different forms of libertarian thinking are resonating with many Americans today, while helping me better understand my own evolving thoughts on these complex issues.

Highlights

03:28 Understanding Libertarian Identity

09:59 Election Results and Libertarian Impulses

18:43 Therapy, Psychology, and Libertarianism

25:18 Resource Distribution and the Veil of Ignorance

35:30 Trust in Institutions vs. Individual Thinkers

Bonnie's Substack | Bonniekristian.substack.com

Previous YHP Episodes with Bonnie:

Episode 21 | To Consider Inerrancy, Infallibility & Inspiration

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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Turn your brains on for a fascinating conversation with scholar and author Tara Isabella Burton (Self Made, Strange Rites, Social Creature) about one of the core tensions in modern spirituality: does it matter more if a religious or spiritual practice works, or if it's true? Drawing from my experience as a therapist and Tara's background in theology, we explore how this plays out in everything from manifesting culture to ancient religious practices. I share my more pragmatic perspective, focused on what actually helps people in therapeutic settings, while Tara makes a compelling case for why we can't separate spiritual practices from their truth claims. We dig into the placebo effect, positive thinking, the limits of pure pragmatism, and whether spiritual practices might "work" precisely because they align with deeper truths about reality. It's a nuanced discussion that challenges both pure pragmatism and rigid orthodoxy, suggesting these seemingly opposing views might actually complement each other in surprising ways.

Tara's New Book | Here in Avalon

Tara's Website | Taraisabellaburton.com

Highlights

12:10 Modern Spirituality and Individualism

21:05 The Intersection of Faith and Truth

30:12 Pragmatism in Therapy and Spirituality

45:03 The Pursuit of Happiness and Material Success

01:07:10 Exploring the Tension Between Ancient and Modern Wisdom

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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Spencer Bland joins me to discuss his journey through various Christian denominations as a southern-based comedian who now takes a more open-ended approach to spirituality. We explore how he uses his religious background as source material for his comedy, including a hilarious story about a demon named Kyle, while maintaining a thoughtful and nuanced perspective that honors personal experience rather than broad critique. Our discussion brings up the parallels between comedy and therapy as tools for processing religious experiences and how humor can help acknowledge both the absurdity and significance of our past. 

Spencer's Instagram | @spencerspicy

Highlights

08:57 The Role of Humor in Religion

17:49 The Intersection of Comedy and Religion

31:02 From Pastor to Comedian

54:54 Healing from Religious Trauma

01:10:07 Reflections on Mission Trips and Cultural Christianity

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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Around Christmas, we often rebroadcast a favorite episode. This year, we’re revisiting an episode about nurturant versus authoritarian religion, one of my personal favorites and a listener favorite too. It’s especially relevant now as many of us reflect on family dynamics over the holidays—parenting, upbringing, and how we think about God. The episode is both practical and theoretical, with insights for parents and anyone thinking about their own childhood.

Original Show Notes:

John Sanders joins me to drop one of the single most helpful distinctions I have ever heard in discussions of religion and culture. His identification and explanation of Nurturant and Authoritative approaches to religion, politics, parenting, and more has been kicking around my head daily for 6 weeks now. You should not skip this episode. And you should probably support indie publishers and buy his book Embracing Prodigals

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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Over breakfast in San Diego, I sat down with returning guest Kristen Tideman to analyze the 2024 presidential election through fresh eyes. Drawing from a 15-speaker mega-panel Kristen had just attended at the American Academy of Religion conference, we explored several alternative frameworks for understanding the election results. We discussed the concept of "vibes-based voting" using David French's curling analogy, which suggests voter sentiment (like a curling stone) can only be marginally influenced by campaigns. This led us to examine how feelings about the economy, nostalgia, and desire for change played a bigger role than explicit policy positions. We challenged the prevailing white Christian nationalism narrative by looking at immigrant voting patterns, and explored Trump's appeal as an "avatar of hope" for voters frustrated with cultural constraints. In the Patron-only second half, we delved into identity politics, anti-elite sentiment, and potential voting reforms. While more political coverage surely lies ahead, this conversation helped foster greater understanding of how we arrived at these results.

Kristen's Company Website | tidycocreative.com

Highlights

04:20 The Impact of Politics on Daily Life

09:42 What is “Vibes-Based Voting?”

16:10 Beyond White Christian Nationalism

25:14 Trump as an Avatar of Hope

34:11 The Role of Identity in Politics

___________________________________________

Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this episode, I speak with Kristian Smith, a fifth-generation Baptist preacher doing groundbreaking work at the intersection of Black church traditions and progressive theology. While many white religious deconstruction journeys (including my own) focus primarily on intellectual and theological questions, Kristian explains how Black church deconstruction involves much deeper communal and embodied dimensions. The Black church has historically served as more than just a religious institution—it's been the heart of Black community life and one of the few spaces where Black Americans could gather with true autonomy. Kristian offers a fascinating framework that separates spirituality from theology, arguing that while Black church spirituality (including its emotional expressiveness, music, and communal experience) has direct links to African spiritual traditions, its theology was largely borrowed from white evangelicalism. His work focuses on preserving these life-giving cultural and spiritual elements while developing new theological frameworks that better serve people's full humanity. Our conversation opened my eyes to the unique dynamics within Black Christian communities and the diverse ways people experience faith transitions, particularly when religious identity is deeply intertwined with cultural preservation and community belonging.

Kristian's Instagram | @kristiansmith

Kristian's Podcast | Holy Smokes: Cigars and Spirituality

Highlights

09:05 The Emotional Weight of Leaving the Black Church

18:06 The Disconnect Between Black and White Deconstruction Spaces

30:00 Progressive Theology and the Black Church

44:56 The Vision for a Progressive Black Church

52:36 Navigating Leadership Dynamics in Multicultural Spaces

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

Or Twitter: twitter.com/DanKoch

Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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