I welcome back psychologist Dr. Chuck DeGroat to continue our discussion on narcissism in religious settings that we began in this episode in February. After recapping our previous conversation about the development and manifestation of narcissism in church systems, we discuss a troubling trend in conservative Christian circles: the demonization of empathy. 

Chuck expresses bewilderment at this rhetoric, suggesting it functions as "an apologetic for apathy" and reflects a fundamental misunderstanding of healthy, differentiated empathy. We distinguish between losing oneself in others' emotions (undifferentiated empathy) versus maintaining healthy boundaries while connecting (differentiated empathy), noting that the critics have created a caricature of empathy as completely ungrounded. This trend is particularly concerning since low empathy is a hallmark trait of narcissism, potentially creating environments where narcissistic leadership flourishes undetected or is even rewarded.

The majority of our conversation happens in the Patreon-only portion, where we explore different types of empathy, and discuss the challenges of identifying narcissistic leaders during hiring processes. We also examine whether power in church settings inevitably leads to narcissism, analyze parallels between narcissistic family systems and church communities, and address what individuals should do when they recognize narcissistic leadership in their church—with Chuck emphasizing the importance of therapy and preparation before any confrontation.

Previous Episode with Chuck:

All About Narcissism (#309)

Chuck's Website | Chuckdegroat.net

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Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this powerful return conversation with Heather Griffin, I revisit our popular "Mount Rushmore" of evangelical epistemology concepts: knowledge is easy, Bible facts, sincerity culture, and sanctified common sense. Heather shares her devastating experiences advocating for abuse survivors within the Anglican Church of North America (ACNA), revealing how institutional structures that appear to provide accountability often fail catastrophically. She describes the ACNA's unique problems where bishops operate with little oversight while clergy take vows of obedience, creating a system where speaking out against abuse can end a priest's career. 

The conversation takes a deeply personal turn as Heather recounts her husband Paul's near-death experience and the beautiful community response that surrounded them—creating a painful contrast with how that same community has failed abuse survivors. Heather's story highlights how even good people who demonstrate Christ-like love in crisis can become complicit in institutional failure when confronting systemic abuse, raising profound questions about spiritual transformation and institutional integrity.

In the second patron-only half of the episode, Heather details her disillusionment with Christian leadership after experiencing narcissistic abuse from a bishop she trusted, explores her crisis of faith in light of these betrayals, and reflects on finding new pathways to spiritual connection despite her profound grief and disappointment.

Previous Episode with Heather | “Bible Truths,” “Sanctified Common Sense,” & “Evangelical Insta-Trust: (#123)

Highlights

12:26 Advocacy Work and Institutional Breakdown

24:19 Challenges within the Anglican Church of North America

45:05 Navigating Spiritual Abuse and Betrayal

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Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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​​In this episode of You Have Permission, I speak with indie Christian recording artist John Mark McMillan and filmmaker Thomas Torrey about Thomas's film "Long December," which explores the story of a musician facing the painful question of when to let go of creative dreams. Thomas shares how the film emerged from his own career crisis when a major project collapsed during COVID, while John Mark reflects on his journey from simply wanting to "pay bills playing music" to desiring Grammy nominations. We explore the psychology behind creative ambition, discussing core beliefs about success, the importance of defining what "arrival" looks like rather than chasing moving targets, and the stoic philosophy that "the work has to be the reward." We wrestle with how identity becomes entangled with creative pursuits and the challenge of finding meaning and contentment whether or not our dreams materialize as we initially imagined.

Long December Film | https://www.imdb.com/title/tt17633766/

John Mark McMillan's Music | https://open.spotify.com/artist/0T1KC0OHfbRO0O5bNH2tek?si=aj6GHoLIRxmLD0Un5XQf6w

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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Laird Edman, Myron Penner, and Kristen Tideman join me to talk about how psychological science has transformed our faith. We discuss how the cognitive science of religion has allowed us to hold theological claims with an open hand while deepening our appreciation for religious practice. Myron discovers that seeing religion as human-made deepens his compassion for believers of all kinds while Kristen's academic journey transforms her from would-be apologist to humble truth-seeker. Laird explains how efforts to 'debunk' religion actually strengthened his faith, and I reveal the counterintuitive way my research on spiritual abuse reinforced my appreciation for religious community.  Our conversation weaves through topics including post-hoc justifications for behavior, religious anxiety, church community, and the natural human propensity for spiritual experience—ultimately showing how psychological understanding can enrich rather than diminish religious life.

In the second Patron-only half of the conversation, we discussed church community, intergenerational relationships, embodied cognition, and the evolution of agency detection mechanisms.



Highlights:

02:52 Cognitive Science of Religion: Understanding Belief

12:07 Psychological Insights and Spiritual Growth

21:08 Religion as a Human Construct

41:19 The Role of Humility in Belief Systems

YHP Episodes Mentioned:

Episode 288 | Dan Made His Own Enneagram

Episode 253 | Still Christian & Way Humble About It!

Episode 191 | All About Ritual (with Laird Edmund)

Episode 80 | Myron is a Demon Skeptic (with Myron Penner)

Episode 41 | Cognitive Science & Religious Belief (For Beginners) (with Myron Penner)

Episode 39 | Psychedelics & Other "Spiritual Technologies" (with Sarah Lane Ritchie)

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this episode, Dan sits down with legal scholar and author Jeffrey Rosen to discuss his book The Pursuit of Happiness: How Classical Writers on Virtue Inspired the Lives of the Founders and Defined America. Starting from Rosen's background as a secular Jew who studied Puritan theology at Harvard, the conversation weaves through classical virtues and their relevance today to the American founders' surprisingly ecumenical approach to religion and morality. They explore the tension between Christian concepts of perfect holiness and classical virtue ethics' focus on finding the golden mean, with Rosen even sharing a song he wrote to help remember Aristotle's virtue framework. The discussion reveals how the founders were more interested in finding common ground between different wisdom traditions than enforcing rigid doctrine, leading to insights about religious freedom and the First Amendment. Throughout, they examine how ancient ideas about self-mastery and virtue remain relevant for navigating our modern pluralistic world, with practical applications from Benjamin Franklin's virtue journaling as well as contemporary approaches to living well.

Highlights

19:56 The Power of the Mind and Self-Mastery

27:35 Exploring Classical Virtues

34:17 The Golden Mean and Emotional Moderation

47:04 Navigating Pluralism and Moral Flexibility

52:23 The Founders' Vision of Virtue and Freedom

Jeffery on X | @Rosenjeffrey

Books Mentioned:

My Voice Will Go With You

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Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this episode, I talk with Stephen Keech, frontman of metalcore band Haste the Day, about maintaining Christian faith in a scene where many have moved away from religious identification. Stephen shares his journey from rigid evangelical beliefs to a more nuanced, "malleable" faith that has allowed him to adapt while keeping his core convictions. We explore why Christian bands thrived in heavy music (the natural synergy between spiritual warfare themes and metal's intensity), the market forces that initially pushed bands to identify as "Christian," and the judgmental culture that drove many artists away. Stephen discusses his transformative encounters that challenged his inherited viewpoints, his shift toward Eastern Orthodox theology, and how fatherhood redefined his purpose after leaving the "ministry platform" of being in a Christian band. Throughout, we examine what it means to be "Christ-like" in today's polarized world while acknowledging the complexity of maintaining faith in creative spaces increasingly skeptical of Christianity.

Stephen's Website | Stephenkeech.com

Stephen on Instagram | @stephenkeech

Episode Mentioned:

Episode #118 | I Don't Believe in that God: Joey Holman

Episode #139 | Christian Heavy Music: Theology, Attachment, Power

Highlights:

02:58 The Evolution of Christian Metalcore

11:52 The Tension Between Faith and Performance

23:57 The Malleability of Faith

51:00 Experiential Faith: Tent Poles vs. Picket Fences

01:09:48 The Moral Dilemma of Modern Christianity

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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Comedian Jenny Zigrino joins me to discuss comedy and mystical spirituality. Drawing from her background in Reform Judaism and early exposure to yoga, Jenny articulated how she combines traditional religious practices with what she calls "woo" elements like moon rituals and meditation. We discussed the relationship between scientific and spiritual frameworks, with Jenny making interesting arguments about celestial influences on human behavior and challenging my skepticism about astrology with observations about the moon's documented effects on Earth. The conversation took a more personal turn when she shared about her sister's passing, leading to thoughtful reflections on how people use spiritual frameworks to process loss and find meaning in tragedy.

The Patron-only second half of our conversation centered on a detailed exploration of tarot cards, including a live reading for my podcast's future, as well as a broader philosophical discussion about consciousness, death, and the limits of human knowledge.

Highlights:

08:48 Exploring Reform Judaism and Spiritual Practices

14:45 Understanding Tarot and Its Therapeutic Value

19:02 The Influence of Religion on Personal Beliefs

26:13 The Nature of God and Suffering

Jenny's Website | Jennyzigrino.com

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

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In this third appearance on You Have Permission, Dr. Terry Shoemaker of Arizona State University joins me to discuss the parallels between religion and sports as described in his new book Religion and Sports: The Basics. We look at four key parallels between religious and athletic life: rituals, devotions, identities, and communities. From early morning Arsenal fan gatherings to how families connect through college football despite tense religious differences, we unpack how sports can serve many of the same social and psychological functions as traditional religion — often with lower stakes. With the similarities of how sports and religion both create calendrical rhythms, foster community bonds, create transcendent experiences, and require devotion, sports offer unique opportunities for connection across ideological divides.

Highlights

05:49 Rituals in Sports and Religion

11:49 The Role of Identity in Sports Fandom

28:45 The Power of Community in Sports

42:12 Devotion: Sports as a Modern Religion

Terry's Book on Sports | Religions and Sports: The Basics

Terry's Faculty Page

Terry's Amazon Book Page

Dan's Substack Piece | In Defense of Sports

Past Episodes with Terry:

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

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In this episode, philosopher Michelle Panchuk joins me to discuss the "just world hypothesis" — the belief that people get what they deserve in life, similar to karma. Michelle, whose early scholarly work on spiritual abuse helped inform my own research on measuring spiritual abuse, shares how the just world hypothesis can subtly infiltrate spiritual teachings with the belief that God will always offer a sense of His presence during difficult times — implying that those who don't feel God's presence must be spiritually deficient.

This creates what Michelle calls a "spiritual version" of the just world hypothesis, adding layers of shame and self-doubt to existing suffering. Particularly harmful for survivors of spiritual abuse, this belief contradicts historical accounts of devoted believers experiencing spiritual darkness. 

In the patron-only second half, we explore the neurobiology of spiritual experience and how spiritual abuse impacts both religious practice and critical thinking.

Michelle's Faculty Page

Highlights

02:53 The Just World Hypothesis Explained

08:57 God's Silence and Spiritual Relationship

17:46 The Uneven Distribution of Spiritual Experiences

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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In this episode, I sat down with Chuck DeGroat, known for his work on narcissism in church contexts, for a wide-ranging conversation about the intersection of narcissistic patterns and religious communities. Chuck shared insights from his clinical experience about how narcissism often emerges as a trauma response and explained the crucial distinction between narcissistic tendencies and Narcissistic Personality Disorder. We explored how narcissistic leadership patterns can manifest across the theological spectrum, from conservative to progressive spaces, and how congregations adopt collective defensive postures that both attract and reinforce narcissistic leadership styles. Using Mars Hill Church as a case study, we examined how an "at war with culture" mentality can drive church growth while simultaneously undermining empathy and authentic community engagement. The conversation concluded with a rich exploration of psychological and theological integration, drawing parallels between Internal Family Systems therapy and how different religious traditions handle internal contradictions. This discussion proved so fruitful that we've planned a follow-up episode focusing specifically on spiritual harm and abuse, which will be available to Patreon subscribers.

Chucks Website | Chuckdegroat.net

Episodes Mentioned:

Episode #187 with Molly Lacroix | Un-Shaming Each Part of Ourselves

Highlights:

11:20 Narcissism in Church Communities

24:33 Theological Connections Between Empathy and Narcissism

32:34 Narcissism and Church Dynamics

43:30 Spiritual Abuse and Community Dynamics

50:35 Integration and Multiplicity in Spirituality

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Follow Dan on IG: www.instagram.com/dancoke/

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Faith deconstruction resources: www.soyouredeconstructing.com/

Edited by Josh Gilbert (joshgilbertmedia.com -- he is accepting more work!)

Join the Patreon for exclusive episodes (and more) every month: patreon.com/dankoch

Email about the "sliding scale" for the Patreon: [email protected]

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