CORRECTION: In an earlier version of this episode, our guest incorrectly stated that in the case of a hung jury, a defendant cannot be retried without risking double jeopardy. This is incorrect. If the jury hangs, then the defendant can be retried. We have edited the episode to remove this and apologize for the error.

It’s nearly time for the jury to begin their deliberations. They’ll file into a backroom at the courthouse, and SBF’s fate will be in their hands. But what goes on behind those doors? How will the jury get to its verdict? Trial consultant Ellen Leggett returns to the show to talk through the process with Lidia Jean Kott.

This conversation was recorded on October 27 and updated on November 1.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

We're finally in the home stretch. Today the prosecution finished their cross examination of Sam Bankman-Fried, the defense followed up with a redirect, and then both sides rested. It’s Michael’s last day at court, but Lidia Jean will attend until the bitter end. They sit down to talk through the trial day’s events.

This conversation was recorded on October 31.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Sam Bankman-Fried finishes direct and faces withering cross-examination by the government’s chief prosecutor, Danielle Sassoon. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean Kott share notes during lunch, then Lidia Jean sits down with Pushkin financial reporter and host Jacob Goldstein to talk through the day’s events.

This conversation was recorded on October 30.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

The day is finally upon us: Sam Bankman-Fried takes the stand. Michael Lewis and Lidia Jean meet up after a long day in court and discuss everything that went down.

This conversation was recorded on October 27.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Michael Lewis finishes his book tour and joins Lidia Jean Kott in court. His timing, as usual, is impeccable. The government rests its case. And then, everyone thinks Sam Bankman-Fried will take the stand. Instead, in a surprise twist, Judge Kaplan sends the jury home. LJ and Michael meet up on the courthouse steps to talk through the day’s events. 

This conversation was recorded on October 26.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

After a few days off, the trial resumes tomorrow, October 26. The prosecution has said they will likely be ready to rest their case by midday. Michael Lewis, Lidia Jean Kott and Rebecca Mermelstein, a partner at the law firm O’Melveny & Myers, sit down to analyze the prosecution’s case and talk about what might happen next, including the possibility of Sam Bankman-Fried taking the stand.

This conversation was recorded on October 23.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Voices of the victims of Sam Bankman-Fried’s alleged crimes have been few and far between during the prosecution’s presentation of its case. On today’s show, Lidia Jean Kott sits down with Jake Thacker, a tech worker from Portland, Oregon who borrowed money to bet big on FTX, only to be left holding the bag. He says he’s now bankrupt and unsure whether he’ll be able to keep his home. 

This conversation was recorded on October 23. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Another week come and gone, and like everything SBF, it wasn’t without a healthy dose of drama. Lidia Jean Kott catches Michael Lewis and Jacob Goldstein up on all that has gone down. 

This conversation was recorded on the evening of October 19.

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

To access bonus episodes, and to listen to all of our coverage ad-free, sign up for Pushkin plus on the Against The Rules show page in Apple Podcasts or at Pushkin.fm/plus.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

When nerdy gamer Sam Bankman-Fried rocketed to fame as the world’s richest 29-year-old, he pledged to donate his billions to good causes. But when Sam's crypto exchange FTX collapsed, billions of dollars went missing, and Sam was in handcuffs, those who knew him were left wondering — who was Sam really? A well-meaning billionaire who made a mistake? Or a calculated con man? From Wondery and Bloomberg, the makers of The Shrink Next Door, comes a new story of incredible wealth, betrayal, and what happens when “doing good” goes really, really, bad.

Binge all episodes of Spellcaster ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery App or on Apple Podcasts. Listen to Spellcaster. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Today on the show, Michael talks with Matt Levine, business columnist at Bloomberg News and author of the newsletter “Money Stuff.” Matt knows more about how crypto markets work than just about anyone else. And also about how they don’t work. Like when there’s a more than eight billion dollar hole nobody seems to have been able to fill. Matt and Michael talk trial, SBF and FTX. 

This conversation was recorded at 2pm on October 17. 

Questions for Michael? Submit them by clicking the link in our show notes or visiting atrpodcast.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.