This week on A Productive Conversation, I sit down with Brad Stulberg, author of The Way of Excellence, to explore what excellence really means in a world obsessed with efficiency, optimization, and performative productivity. Brad has spent years studying sustainable excellence across sport, leadership, creativity, and life—and this conversation digs into why excellence is neither perfection nor hustle, but something far more human.

Brad and I unpack the difference between true excellence and what he calls “pseudo-excellence,” why metrics often outlive their usefulness, and how habits like routine, curiosity, and gumption play a central role in meaningful progress. Along the way, we explore why satisfaction outlasts happiness, why flow isn’t always the goal, and how focusing on the task at hand—not the time on hand—changes everything.

Six Discussion Points

• Why excellence must be reclaimed from hustle culture, optimization, and perfectionism
• The difference between efficiency and excellence—and why short-term efficiency often undermines long-term growth
• Metrics, mastery, and knowing when measures help—or get in the way
• Flow versus values-driven excellence (and why not all flow is good)
• Gumption, routines, and building momentum without becoming robotic
• Why satisfaction comes from effort on worthwhile work, not outcomes alone

Three Connection Points

• The Way of Excellence by Brad Stulberg
• The Growth Equation (Blog Posts)
• Listen to Brad's previous appearance on APC

This conversation is a reminder that excellence isn’t about doing more—it’s about doing what matters with care, patience, and intention. Brad’s work offers a compelling counterpoint to the constant pressure to optimize everything, and instead invites us to pursue a more grounded, values-aligned version of success—one that shapes us as much as the work itself.