Cider Chat

In this episode hear how brother's Jon and Christopher Piana found their way to Fable Farm and how you can get there and enjoy the bounty too!

Jon and Chris Piana

Hear about:

• Jon and Christopher's back stories
• Fable Farm's Feast and Field Event
  • Every Thursday during the summer months, enjoy out door music, food, cider, and more libations
• The Tasting Room
• The Cave - underneath the huge barn at Fable Farm
• The Quarterly Wine Club
• Foraging Apples
• Native yeasts, apples and grapes
• Co-ferments

Jon opening bottle in Cider Cave

• Ciders
  • Walden (7.0%)
    • A small amount of the 2020 pet nat, Emanation, was barreled down to age an additional two years.
  • Emanation (6.0%)
    • 1-2 years in the bottle, this cider has been rolling out since 2015
    • Apples from Walden Heights Nursery and Orchard
  • Fluxion (6.9%)
    • made with a blend multiple vintages, which is a technique called Solera
    • a spritz of maple syrup is added for the secondary fermentation. At this point the yeast remaining in the bottle get reinvigorated and create bubbles. (this is the short story of what is called traditional method)

Farm Fermentory Barn sand Feast & Field event set up

• Website: https://fablefarmfermentory.com/
• Shop: https://fablefarmfermentory.com/shop/

This 22 acre farm with 8 acres of orchards on a hillside outside of Hardwick, Vermont in the town of Walden was founded by Todd Parlo and Lori Augustyniak. It is a sustainably managed and certified organic fruit orchard and nursery. In this chat, we speak with both founders as they share the history and current educational offerings at WHNO.

Todd Parlo and Lori Augustyniak (w/ frozen jug of apple juice) at WHNO

We also discuss how WHNO was awarded a SARE (Sustainable Agricultural Research and Educational Project) grant to study: The evaluations of apple cultivars for hard cider production in the Northeast. The goal of the project as Todd Parlo states it, is "To increase the pool of possibilities for a cider maker. And to get numbers on the constituents of juices of a variety of apple cultivars."

• 313 apple varieties from WHNO were tested during this project.

Todd in the Walden orchard

The study was completed and as of 2023 the results of the study can be reviewed via this link online.

Walk about the orchard with both Todd and Lori at WHNO and hear about just a few of the 600 apples varieties grown here.

• Website: https://waldenheightsnursery.com/about/

Mentions in this Chat

• Vermont flooding help - Go Fund Me for Henry's Hardware & Den in Cabot
• Fermentis: AC-4. SafCider™ AC-4 stands for Apple Crisp and is one of 3 SafCider™ Yeasts for your cider!
• Visit Idaho and taste the ciders! More info at https://nwcider.com/map
  • Athol Orchards visit this orchard in the Panhandle of Idaho

He both forages apples and has a small orchard planted that he planted four years ago on his farm based in Craftsbury, Vermont. The ciders are both wild ferments and occasionally have cultured yeasts too.

He sells locally at Vermont farmers markets and doesn't have any immediate plans to increase his production which is currently at 900 gallons per year.

Cedar Hannan

Cedar was originally looking at brewing as a retirement goal, but (as he notes in this episode) there are already a fantastic number of breweries in the surrounding area. In addition, the carbon footprint of beer is a bit larger than that of making cider at a local scale. Thankfully for us all, Cedar went with his hunch and is making Wildbranch Cider his full time gig, having quit his IT job.

Each of the following is what Cedar looks for when foraging apples or pears for Wildbranch.

• Flavor - aroma
• Tannin
• Acidity
• Sugar content

• The Spiney - Flagship cider 6.8%
  • Try with cheddar cheese and grilled pork chop
• Golden Russet 8.3%
  • Intense fruitiness, Little bit of cooked apple
• Perry
  • Made with culinary pears - Barlett's and Big Earl (a local variety)

Perry

Contact for Wildbranch Cider

• Website: https://www.wildbranchcider.com/

Mentions in this Chat

• Fermentis: AC-4. SafCider™ AC-4 stands for Apple Crisp and is one of 3 SafCider™ Yeasts for your cider!
• Visit Idaho and taste the ciders! More info at https://nwcider.com/map
  • The Idaho University Extension Program - has a Fermentation Club - Find out about the July 29, 2023 Fermentation class

July 28th - 30th at the Ashokan Center in the Hudson River Valley (on the west side of river) is the first ever NY Apple Camp!

Elizabeth Ryan of Stone Ridge Orchard who is producing this event catches us up on the scheduled events and talks.

The weekend begins with an optional tour on Friday focusing on the life of Andrew Jackson Downing. The tour goes to the original site of the Downing Nursery and Downing Park. Then a 2 hour lunch with cider and off to Esopus - where the Esopus Spitzenberg originated from.

• Find the Schedule of events and presentations at https://www.hvcenterforfoodartsandag.org/apple-camp-schedule.html#/
• Tickets at: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/ny-apple-camp-2023-tickets-657779936497

The Friday tour is optional and there is a request for donations of $30.

• Fermentis: AB-1 (Apple Balance) yeast is one of 3 SafCider Yeasts for your cider!
• Visit Idaho and taste the ciders! More info at https://nwcider.com/map

Ben is the Orchard Manager at Eden Specialty Cider based in northern Vermont and shares his insight on cold climate apple varieties and orchard tips. This chat took place at Eden's orchards based in what is known as the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont in the town of West Charleston.

Ben Applegate

There are 50 Apple varieties at the Eden orchard. Here is a list of just some of the apples discussed in this episode:

• Newton Pippin
• Liberty
• Stembridge Cluster
• Rubinette
• Northern Spy
• Trembletts Bitter

Ben discusses which varieties work well in a cold climate, while recommending that as the temperatures continue to rise both in Vermont and globally, he advises to plant trial apples for the changes ahead.

• Why you should do a Soil test before planting and what to do with that knowledge
• Why pruning too early can offset young trees
• Which apple tree damaging insects to worry about

• We learn about the challenges faced by the young apple trees, such as sun scald and fluctuating temperatures
• Scythe and Biological Mowing
• How climate change is affecting traditional production of Ice Cider, which is made by freezing apple juice on the coldest days of the year to freeze the water and then ferment the pure apple juice into what is known as Ice Cider.
• How acidity of the soil directly affects the acidity of the apples
• Selection of apple varieties and rootstock is crucial
• Dwarf tree management
• Incorporating composted teas for apple trees
• The impact of author Micheal Phillips' work

Contact for Ben Applegate

Website: http://edenciders.com

email: mailto:[email protected]

Mentions in this Chat

• New York Apple Camp July 28th-30th, 2023 Registration is open!

The wild "ambient" yeast found on apples, in the air, on cider presses can all contribute to a spontaneous fermentation within the cider must, which is the juice that has been freshly pressed from a fruit such as apples or grapes and is fermenting. In this episode we hear from Hugues Guichard, who works at the Institut Français des Productions Cidricoles a research institute focusing on cider based in Normandy, France.

Hugues presented this lecture at CiderCon 2023, which is hosted by the American Cider Association.

Hugues Guichard at CiderCon 2023

Allowing a cider to go through a full spontaneous fermentation successfully is a growing trend within the industry as consumer continue to seek "natural" ciders. Hugues provides a complete overview of the French cider industry and the science behind spontaneous ferments.

• Subscribe to the Cider Chat YouTube Channel to be notified when the audio of this lecture synced with the power point slide show goes live to the public.
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• Part I: French Cider Industry and IFPC
• Part II: French Cider ProcessingCider Apples and Harvest

  • Possible contamination by spoiling microorganisms

• Clarification
• Fermentation
• Maturation
• Bottling
• Conclusion

• Hanseniaspora is a genus of yeasts, when there is no sulphites in the must

• Mechnikowia pulcherrima (Mp)

  • On apple and in must (often high population)

  • no development in anaerobioses

• Hanseniaspora valbyensys (Hv) - apiculate yeast

  • On apple and in must, growth in must

  • 1 to 2 weeks then decreases

  • Sensibility to SO2

• Saccharomyces uvarum (Su): fermentative yeast

Bacterias and yeasts in ciders that can create off flavors

• Acetic acid bacteria (Acetobacter). Often described at Volatile Acidity (VA) which lends a vinegary taste to the cider

• Zymomonas mobilis (bacteria). off flavors such as rotten banana, vegetal aromas. There may be a haze formation, high pressure in bottles, and excessive foaming

• Secundilactobacillus collinoïdes - lactic acid spoilage

• Brettanomyces anomala - Volatile phenol

Begin with cidermaking best practices

As expected best practices for all fermentation including a spontaneous fermentation require

• Clean Fruit
• Hygiene in the cidery
• Temperature control

Contact for Hugues Guichard

• email: mailto:[email protected]

Mentions in this Chat

• New York Apple Camp July 28th-30th, 2023
• Nordic International Cider Competition - Deadline for sending entries August 7th,
  • The NICA competition takes place on September 6-9, in Riga, Latvia

Cornell University Associate Professor of Horticulture Gregory Peck Ph.D and Angry Orchard Head Cidermaker Joe Gaynor provide an in depth study of mechanical tools for orchards of all sizes.

The presentation took place at CiderCon2023.

No need to be an orchardist to enjoy this topic on mechanical harvesting of apples. Some of these same tools presented are also used in vineyards for harvesting grapes. Particularly interesting for cider fans and makers alike, is the debunking the myth that apples that fall on the ground can't be used to make cider. Dr Peck provides a great overview on this topic.

• Comparison of Cider Economies of New York, US and UK
• Bush Cider Orchards - wide row spacing for mechanical harvesting
• Cumulative Net Present Value (NPV) using Outsourced Machine Harvesting (~$300/acre)
• Is it Profitable to Grow Cider Apples in NY?
• The cost of hand picking - Labor in America
• Cumulative NPV at Various Returns using Hand or Machine Harvesting
• Tree-row sweeping and picking up
• Harvesting off the ground
• How mechanical harvesting impacts the fruit
• Options for Small, Medium and Large scale operations
• Conclusions of this study

Contact info for Gregory Peck

• eMail: [email protected]
• Listen to an early Episode 198: Becoming a Pommologist with Dr. Peck

Mentions in this Chat

• Scott Farm Go Fund Me for apple lost due to 2023 Frost
• New York Apple Camp July 28th-30th, 2023

On a sloping hill on the east side of the picturesque village of Cambremer sits Domaine Marois. The lead up to the home is formidable with a long drive that leads to the barrel room and production facility for the Domaine. Behind the home is a majestic oak tree said to be over 300 years old.

Antoine Marois in the barrel room at the Domaine

It is here that Antoine and wife Marie Marois reside. Marie is a cider maker in her own right having taken the head cider maker position at Domaine Dupont.

The grand house at Domaine Marois

• Where is Domaine Marois located – here we talk about the area.
  • – what to expect when visiting
• Antoine journey to become a cidermaker after working first with wine.
  • • What Antoine bring to cider that he learned from wine.
• Why haute tige (standard size) trees are important.
• How an orchard benefits from cows in the orchard
• Types of Cider Styles at Domaine Marois.
  • Co-ferments
  • Barrels toasted with apple juice
  • wild yeast and cultured yeaast
    • What to expect in the glass
• Visiting Domaine Marois
• Future plans for Domaine Marois

300+ year old oak tree at Domaine Marois

• Website: https://www.domaine-am.com/
• Visit this Domaine Marois by appointment only

The moped in the barrel room at Domaine Marois

Mentions in this Chat

• International Cider and Perry Competition - Cider Museum | Herefordshire - see the list of winners here
• Recent episodes with UK cider maker Tom Oliver
  • Ep 361 Is SO2 Necessary for Cider Making?
  • Ep 366 Acclaimed Cider with Minimal Intervention | Tom Oliver
• Got a Question about yeast and cidermaking? Send in your questions to [email protected] for the upcoming episode with Fermentis

Hear from Dorsey and daughter Brittany, the mother and daughter team at Korkdick Family Farm with Baba Yaga as their guide. Dorsey is a long time apple fan and even attended Peter Mitchell's cidermaking courses in the UK early on making her one of the first American's to take the UK course. Brittany studied agriculture and the two together make a dynamic team. Their main crop is apples and they apply holistic orchard practices.

Illustration for story of Kordick Family Farm called; Baba Yaga's Apples of Eternal Youth

• The story behind Kordick Farm
  • Baba Yaga inspiration
• How it works for a mother and daughter team – do you have help?
• The orchard,
  • number of apple varieties and pear (southern apple varieties?)

Garlic growing between Apple Trees on top of the hay mulch

• • root stock that works.
  • orchard practices
    • What do you no longer do and what is working (why) in our warming climate
    • Root stock used for that climate

The Kordicks practice intercropping between apple trees

• • Who is your market
  • What you sell
  • Kordicks Esty story
• Advice for new orchardist and women in particular who are interested in following a similar path.

Baba Yaga Renditions designed by Brittany Kordick

Contact info for the Kordick Family Farm

Website: https://www.kordickfamilyfarm.com/

Etsy Store: https://www.etsy.com/shop/KordickFamilyFarm?ref=shop_sugg

Mentioned in this Chat

• 312: Some Angels are Dressed Like Bears | Michael Phillips 1957-2022

The Northern Spy is a delightful apple used both for baking and cidermaking! At one time it was a major export commodity due to its lack of bruising when packed in barrels. As far as apples go it is a winner for so many reasons, yet no one knows why it is named Northern Spy. there are certainly many hyposthesis on the subject. In episode 226: Northern Spy and the Underground Railroad Ryan Monkman of Fieldbird Cider reads a fictional essay on the topic (do listen as it is grand).

Kerry Anne Wilkins

In this episode we hear from Apple Sleuth or self proclaimed "Malus Absurdum" Kerry Anne Wilkins who is on the trail of the Northern Spy. Professionally Kerry works as a hospice nurse, but her love of apples and set her on a journey to find the story behind the naming of the Northern Spy.

Herman Chapin is responsible for propagating the Northern Spy

• Meeting the John Bunkers, a premier Apple Detective
• What we know so far about the Northern Spy's history
• Apple Sleuthing tips
  • Libraries
  • Oral History
  • Newspaper
  • Cemeteries
  • Land maps
• Tracking the Northern Spy to East Bloomfield, New York
• A Martha Steward faux pas that needed to be corrected
• The Northern Spy marker in East Bloomfield
• Herman Chapin and the Chapin family connection to the Northern Spy

] East Bloomfield road marker reads:

The original Northern Spy Apple Tree Stood about 14 Rods south of this spot in a seedling orchard. Planted by Herman Chapin about 1800 The Early Joe and Melon Apple also originated in this orchard.

Kerry is still on the quest to discover the history of the Northern Spy and hopefully the reason why this apple was named as such. If you have info please send it along her way. Recipes, book mentions, oral tales are all welcomed.

Contact info for Kerry Anne Wilkins

email: [email protected]

Want Kerry's postal address to send a letter? Contact [email protected]

Mentions in this Chat

• Listen to episode 290 with Tattiebolge CiderWorks Acme, Pennsylvania - as mentioned in this episode it is building out!
• Canuck Cider Cup winners for 2023
• Who is John Bunker America's Apple Detective? There are many episodes with John feature. Begin with this one https://ciderchat.com/028-john-bunker-apple-identification/ and then google Cider Chat John Bunker for more from this American treasure of a man!
• Bottles on My Desk - Listen to the latest episode at the Cider Chat YouTube Channel via playlist "bottles on my desk"