Cider Chat

Was Aphrodite's Forbidden Fruit a quince or the apple? She's not talking, but cidermakers are in this panel discussion on "Fermenting with Quince" that was recorded for CiderCon2021.

Quince a.k.a. Cydonia oblonga is the sole member of the genus Cydonia in the family Rosaceae. Quince is a 'pomme' fruit with the likes of apples, pears, and medlars. This golden Pomme is having a renaissance of sorts with makers partly due to it aromatic qualities and tannins.

Kim Hamblin and Dan Rinke of Art + Science in Oregon, Steve Selin of South Hill Cider in New York and UK makers Martin Berkley of Pilton's Cider and James Forbes of Little Pomona will discuss fermenting with Quince for this panel discussion that was moderated by Ria Windcaller of Cider Chat.

1. 1. What inspired you to ferment with quince and how long have you fermenting with quince?
   2. How do you source your quince?
   3. Quince varieties used - not unusual for makers to use unknown varieties.
   4. Quince product(s) and how it is made. What is the ABV? Tasting notes: or what should we expect.
   5. Maker Techniques for instance, 100% or blended into cider

Art + Science | Oregon

South Hill Cider | New York

Pilton Cider | Somerset/UK

Little Pomona | Hertfordshire/UK

Mentions in this Chat

• Fermentis by Lesaffre -
  • Q&A #15 - What yeast strain(s) would you recommend for a Cold/sweet/French cider?
    • AB1 ,AS2 sweet complexity,
• Quince Episodes on Cider Chat
  • Episode 248 New England Quince Taste Test 2020
  • Episode 252 #GrowQuince | Part 1
  • Episode 253 #GrowQuince |Part 2 - The Harvest
  • Episode 266 Vermont Quince Co. Elevates a Forgotten Pomme

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Vermont Quince Hosts the New England Quince Taste Test of 2020

Perhaps before you listen to this episode 266 you might like to go to episode 248 to hear the initial blind tasting to compare the notes with this episode.

A mother and son trip to Spain, inspired Nan Stefanik to incorporate Vermont Quince Company was in 2012. Since that time her one person company has not only wowed the foodie market with her many quince marmalades and pastes, but she also secured a Specialty Crop Grant for the #GrowQuince Initiative.

Nan notes that she is "Still amazed that even at her age, she knew so little about quince" which had first been introduce to New England in 1629. At the time quince became a staple as it is a great resource for pectin used in the making of jams. From New England, the quince traveled to Texas in 1850 and then California. The Golden State became a top producer of 90% of the commercial quince on the market. In the mid 20th century the producing artificial pectin led to the demise of quince production.

Nan credits her son for encouraging her to do a bit of market research on Quince. She found that US chefs were sourcing their quince from overseas from Spain, Italy, Australia and New Zealand. The thought of importing this once beloved pomme fruit (in the same family as apples and pears) inspired her to start her business Vermont Quince which produces a lovely assortment of quince condiments and preserves....and she even plays at home with infusing quince to make a delightful liquor.

Aromatnaya

A Russian variety that bears a very large, bright yellow, aromatic fruit with a delicious, lemony flavor. Aromatnaya fruit can be eaten fresh, when thinly sliced and used to make marmalade and jellies.

ID: This variety is typically squat and with ridges like a pumpkin

Kuganskaya

Known to be from the region of the southern Caucasus, north of Turkey and Armenia.

ID: This variety has very smooth skin and doesn't tend to split

Smyrna

Extremely large fruit with light yellow flesh, bright yellow skin. Attractive tree (or multi-stemmed shrub) has dark green foliage & very showy bloom. Tolerates wet soil.

ID: Described by Nan as being a "big honking' fruit that can appear bulbous

van Deman - this quince variety was developed by Luther Burbank, (March 7, 1849 – April 11, 1926) who was an American botanist and horticulturist based in California. Van Deman bears good crops of large and delicious, bright yellow fruit. Expect a spicy flavored from this quince.

Orange

Expect ripening to occur October through December and to also extend through February in some colder areas. The Orange Quince is a self fertile tree and requires 300 chill hours.

ID: round and apple like

Follow the #GrowQuince Initiative by going to the links below as Nan continues to make available more ID tools and info on this once forgotten fruit!

Contact info for Vermont Quince Company

• Shop for all the products Nan discussed and more at Vermont Quince
• email [email protected]
• Facebook page: GrowQuince.

Mentions in this Chat

• Fermentis by Lesaffre -
  • Q&A #14 - Can you explain a little bit about the difference between mineral and organic nutrient/nutrient additions?
• Quince Episodes on Cider Chat
  • Episode 248 New England Quince Taste Test 2020
  • Episode 252 #GrowQuince | Part 1
  • Episode 253 #GrowQuince |Part 2 - The Harvest

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Étienne Dupont took over the Domaine Familial Etienne Dupont in the Pays d'Auge region of Normandy France from his father Louis and grandfather Jules in 1980. Episode 098: Jérôme Dupont | Domaine Dupont is a conversation with Étienne son who sadly passed away in 2018. The recording with Jérôme provides the backdrop of the story behind the Dupont families acquiring the estate or what is called a Domaine in France.

Eitenne Dupont and Benoit at Cave Pepins

In this episode Étienne and I are in the city of Caen and we are visiting Cave Pepin - wonderful store filled with Calvados, Cider, Poire and Pommeau. We are assisted by Benoit or Ben who works at the store and brought us through a tasting of Calvados.

Etienne begins by describing the

• The fruit
• The Yeast
• The Cask in which the Calvados has been kept

If the cask is new wood you will taste the sap which presents itself as grainy.

Classical Calvados - the cask only contained cider and Calvados

Étienne asks if we suspect acetone in the Calvados as we are tasting.

During our first tasting we are delve into the taste and as Étienne says,

"We are fighting the acetone, we are too professional"

• He prefers a quick fermentation of 3 days and then distillation. But alas the rules in Normandy require that distillation now must be done 3 weeks from the point of initial distillation.
• Use clean apples. When Domaine Dupont presses the juice goes directly into concrete vats at the Pressoir and then it is pumped underground via tubing to the pot still.
• The cider is racked off the gross lees at this point, with only the fine lees being distilled
• His preferred temperature to ferment the cider is 22 to 23 degrees celsius (71 Fahrenheit) and no fermentation below 8 degrees Celsius (46 Fahrenheit).

Determining Age of Calvados

• Fine is younger 2-3 years old
• Hors d'Age is at least 6 years old
  • Étienne jokes that Hors d'Age which can range from 6 years to 20 is designed to get you lost. I agree and so best to ask the producer! Or as Étienne says that "You must rely on your palate."

Contact for Cave Pepin

I recommend following - Cave Pepin's Facebook page

Contact for Domaine Familial Etienne Dupont

Website: https://www.calvados-dupont.com/en/ciders-calvados.htm

Mentions in this chat

• Piotr Marzęcki of Polandski Read about Piotr ciders via Cider From Poland
  • Fermentis yeast that Piotr uses for his ciders. UCLM S325
• • Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
  • Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
  • Twitter @ciderchat
  • Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
  • Cider Chat FaceBook Page
  • Cider Chat YouTubeFermentis Q&A #13
    • Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:
      • What are the sulfite additions effects on cider/yeast that you are planning to use?

    Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

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John Bunker, of Maine, Presents: Grandma's Apple Orchard: the perfect orchard with only twelve trees. How did she do it?

John is a Colby alumnus and was presented the 2019 Commissioner's Distinguished Service Award by Governor Janet Mills and Commissioner Amanda Beal for Saving Maine's Apple Heritage. He has also authored two books: Apples and the Art of Detection: Tracking Down, Identifying, and Preserving Rare Apples, and Not Far From the Tree--a Brief History of the Apples and the Orchards of Palermo Maine 1804-2004.

The Palermo Community Library hosted this virtual presentation by John Bunker on Wednesday, February 24th 2021 and granted permission to Cider Chat to edit and repost this delightful presentation. Find the link to this the full Zoom presentation CLICK HERE

"The apples are longing to be planted in your yard.

They want you to put down your roots with them here in your Community now

When Dostoyevsky wrote about the renewal in the orchard, he talked about 100 years.

That hundred years is now.

He knew that he was speaking to us now, he meant us.

We are it."

• Out on the limb apples
• Maine Organic Farmers and Gardeners Association

More chats with John Bunker on Cider Chat

• 016: John Bunker | Super Chilly Farm, Maine
• 028 John Bunker | Apple Identification Where to Start

In humanities renewal, let the apple trees lead the way.

Mentions in this chat

• Fermentis Q&A #12
  • Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:
    • What is the reasoning behind adding adding Sulfites to the fresh pressed apple juice before fermentation?

  Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

  Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

  • Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
  • Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
  • Twitter @ciderchat
  • Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
  • Cider Chat FaceBook Page
  • Cider Chat YouTube

Up to this point we've all been reliant upon drawings and descriptions from historical books and "those in the know" to identify specific apple varieties. Today, as you will see below, there is now an option to have an apple's parentage checked via the DNA.

Cameron Peace PhD of Washington State University's presentation on "The Reconstruction of the Apple Family and other cider genetics". This video is synced with the power point presentation presented by Dr. Peace at Franklin County CiderDays 2019.

Cost of DNA profiling to determine identity and/or parentage is currently $120 per tree (sorry). Your photos and background stories of each mystery tree to be tested are welcome and requested – I'm interested in learning about each tree and joining you in making discoveries. Please note that this is NOT a commercial service but rather a research opportunity. Besides genetics answers provided back to you, knowledge of public interest might be revealed such as filling of gaps in the cultivated apple family tree. DNA profiles of apple tree submissions (your name redacted) are added to a larger dataset (publicly accessible by scientists) and might be used as examples in future scientific presentations and studies. To obtain leaf sample collection instructions, please email me at [email protected]

Heritage Orchard Conference

For a recently recorded and complementary talk by Dr. Peace on "Apple Identification with DNA: Identity and Parentage Revelations using New Tools" and other great talks by heritage apple experts, please see the Heritage Orchard Conference webinar series based out of the University of Idaho.

Here is one of the first webinar on the series. This one below is on Sleuthing for Lost Apples.

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A virtual cider is a cidery managed out of someone's else's cidery, or winery and in some cases a brewery. This week's featured guest is Ryan Monkman of FieldBird Cider in Prince Edward County Ontario. I met Ryan in 2018 and visited his Virtual Cidery host Keint-He Winery. The location was ideal being close to where Ryan lives making it very easy for him to manage the barrels of cider stored in the amazing underground barrel room.

Ryan Monkman

The arrangement or agreement is key to the success of this cidery model. Ryan discusses the following options to consider.

1. The virtual maker (VM) does sales, while the host does packaging.
2. The VM does everything.

Virtual Makers must decide: How involved do you want to be?

Benefits of the Virtual Cidery Model

• Low risk
  • - you get to test your brand and product without having to set up a full brick and mortar site
• Low financial up front costs
• The VM and host have the potential to do collaborations.

For Ryan, he found three key areas to consider

1. People : Can you get along with the people who work there and the owner?
2. Equipment: is the host site equipment going to meet the VM needs?
3. Maintenance: If equipment breaks, can you wait till the host fixes it?
4. Plan for unexpected costs - If the barrel steamer is broke, it is in everyone's best interest to get it fixed instead of waiting for the host who might be strapped for cash.

Contact for FieldBird Cider and Ryan Monkman

Website: https://fieldbird.ca/

Address:

1385 Highway 62 Prince Edward County, ON

Mentions in this chat

The Building a Cidery Series Part 1-7

• 255: Trademark Law | Building a Cidery Part 1
• 256 Securing a Trademark | Building a Cidery Part 2
• 257: Courthouse Creek Garagistes | Building a Cidery Part 3
• 258: Ragged Hill Design | Building a Cidery Part 4
• 259: Artifact Cityscape | Building a Cidery Part 5
• 260: Eris Brewery and Cider House | Building a Cidery Part 6
• 261: Yonder & The Source | Building a Cidery Part 7

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Yonder Cider is made at the production facility in Wenatchee, Washington. Cider are made with both culinary and classic cider varieties that co-owner Caitlin Braam, who is our featured guest in this episode, says is key to the Yonder label. Wenatchee is also the home of Snowdrift Cider Company where Tim Larsen is based and who also co-owns Yonder. Listen to episode 37 featuring Tim Larsen to learn more about his background and why this region of Washington state is so important the apple industry of the Pacific Northwest.

Caitlin Braam

The Source is a separate business, but also based at the Wenatchee site. Sourcing juice is jargon widely used in the cider industry for makers needing to "source" juice from orchards to make cider. The Source provides both customized blends and apples to makers.

The Source in Wenatchee

The future looks bright despite the closing of the Yonder Bar on February 15, 2021.

• The garage bar for Yonder was set up in Caitlin's own garage in response to Covid. Despite the overwhelming support of neighbors, one anti cider fan was out to close the "garage bar" and the city finally conceded.

Later this year (2021) a new Tasting Venue will be opening with ample outdoor seating. This new site is a collaboration with Bale Breaker Brewing and will be located in the Ballard Brewery District of Seattle, which is 15 minutes to the north of the Seattle Fish Market.

Expect 6200 feet of outdoor space and a shared Tasting Room inside.

Thinking out Yonder of the Box

Because of licensing regulations, Caitlin had to secure the licensing for a distillery so that the Bale Breaker and Yonder project could work.

Contact Yonder Cider and The Source

https://www.yondercider.com/

https://www.thesourcecider.com/

Mentions in this Chat

• Alma Cider and Beer Bar - 904 N. Virgil Ave. LA, CA
  • Telephone323-522-3362

• Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:
  • Q: Which yeast should I use to expand the attributes of the cider

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Eris is the name of the goddess of chaos. Her splendor in creating chaos is exactly why co-owners Michelle Foik and Katie Pizza named their craft beer and cider bar Eris, but there is more. Katie's "elevator pitch' for Eris tells it all saying, "Eris is a brewery, cider house and full service restaurant all under one roof in Chicago."

Eris situated in the Howler Building

Michelle and Katie began conceptualizing Eris back in 2014, though the actual name of the bar came about much later. It took four years before they could opened the door in February of 2018. The building itself was originally used as a Masonic Temple. Today, the cidery is situated in the basement, the brewery and restaurant on the first floor and the second floor is sighted to be a 200 person event space. There is also outdoor seating, which got a major boost when infrared heaters were added this past November, making the covid safe space super toasty even in the winter months!

Katy Pizza and Michelle Foik

What equipment feel out of favor?

• The cross flow filter is used to ensure that the cider stays stable on the shelf. Michelle found that it couldn't keep up with the flow of cider being canned.

Tanks through the window

What equipment did they get right?

• Building for the future by having a 30 barrel brewery and enough tank space in the cidery to avoid the need to scale up for a very long time. Both women noted that with the cidery in the basement they had only one shot to get the tanks in. To do so later would be impossible. That said, perhaps they could have gotten away with a smaller brewing system, but something tells this podcasters that in time they will be very happy to have the larger system in the long run.

] Summer Patio and now a winter patio too with infrared heaters outside at Eris

Contact for Eris Brewery and Cider House

Website: https://www.erischicago.com/story

Address: 4240 W Irving Park Road, Chicago, IL 60641

Telephone: 773-943-6200

Mentions in this Chat

• Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:
  • Q: I though Apples were filled with nutrients, so do I need to add nutrients to the ferment and if so which ones?

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Soham Bahatt and Jake Mazar co-founded Artifact Cider Project in 2014. The cidery was originally located in the city of Springfield, Massachusetts, then moved out towards Boston and eventually back to western Massachusetts. Today, Artifact has two locations, a Tasting Room and production facility in Florence and one in Cambridge.

Soham Bahatt at Artifact Tasting Room and cidery in Florence, Massachusetts

1. What kind of scale are we looking at [for the size of a cidery]?

2. What are our goals?

Soham looks at the question of "What does it take to grow a 100 year company?"

• Make sure the cider is good
• Make sure we are listening to our customers
• Don't out grow our suppliers

Baseline equipment and strategy tips for a small scale cidery start up

• Focus on sourcing your raw material, which for a cidery is apples
• Equipment
  • IBC tanks are used widely in the industry for start ups and ongoing ferments
  • Tri clamps - don't cheap out on quality
  • Decent pump - all makers in this series stress the need to have a quality pump
  • Bottle by hand. Canning can come in later as it takes a bit of capital to get this jump started
  • Don't worry about a filter - use the luxury of time and let the cider settle to gain clarity

Equipment that Soham doesn't like?

• Filter - plate and frame is a pain in the butt
• Artifact used a lenticular filter for a while and now has a Cross Flow Filter

Contact Artifact Cider Project

Website: https://www.artifactcider.com/ciders

2 Locations

• The Cellar in Florence
  • 34 N. Maple Street, Suite 15, Florence, Massachusetts 01062
  • (617) 544-3494
• The Station x Central Square
  • 438 Massachusetts Avenue, Cambridge, Massachusetts 02139
  • (617) 714-4076

Mentions in this Chat

• Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:
  • Q: Can I use a "beer yeast" or "wine yeast" in my cider?
• Ria's CiderCon2021 Notes from the Virtual Conference 2021CiderCon | Day 1 2021CiderCon Day 2 Notes 2021CiderCon Day 3

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Steve Garwood is the Head Cidermaker at Ragged Hill Cidery. He and his daughter Anne Garwood Hampp who manages Sales and Marketing and orchardist Keith Arsenault form the Ragged Hill Cider Company in West Brookfield, Massachusetts. Keith began planting the orchard back in 1984. Find Apple Varieties at Ragged Hill Orchard on their page at New England Apple Association There are 15 acres of apples which are all dwarf tree (predominantly) and they are trellised.

Anne Garwood Hampp, Louise and Steve Garwood. Photo taken in November 2020

Apples trees had to be removed (gasp!) to be build the current cidery alongside the Farm Store.

• The shed roof cidery dimensions are 20' wide x 75' long x 12' high
• The cold room stores around 20,000 bushels which allows for apples bin to be stored 4 at a time on top of each other

Steve ideal storage area would be 40' wide x 60 long x 15 high with no posts to maneuver the fork lift around

The cidery is very well insulated: 6 inches of foam in the walls and 12 inches in the ceiling.

Says Steve, "Since one long wall is shared with our cold storage which has a tremendous thermal flywheel effect , we figured the cidery wouldn't get TOO cold in the winter, but the first summer we realized that we needed to keep the cidery cool because mold was growing everywhere. So we installed a wonderfully efficient Mitsubishi mini-split system with this fantastic gadget called a COOLBOT. The coolbot allows us to hack the mini-split and operate it below its normal operating temperature to keep the cidery at 55 degrees year 'round.

At the same time it gives us heat and AC in the tasting area. We generate all our own electricity (and sell it as well) so it's all 100% green energy."

Ragged Hill also "farms photons". In the way back of the orchard there is an array of solar panels that allows the farm to sell back energy into the grid.

Ragged Hill Cidery and Orchard - Tasting Room to the left and Farm Store to the right

1. Apple processing
2. Fermenting and cellaring
3. Bottling and Lab.

Plus, #4 & #5 - Laboratory and Tasting Room

Contact Ragged Hill Orchard and Cidery:

• Address:
  • 94 John Gilbert Road, West Brookfield MA 01585

Mentions in this Chat

• CiderCon2021 February 3-5, 2021 - A virtual trade conference for the cider industry hosted by the American Cider Association
• New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now.
• Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:
  • Q: What temperature should one's apple juice be at before pitching yeast?
• Eliza Greenman - grafting orchards - https://elizapples.com

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• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
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