Cider Chat

We are Garagiste!

Liza and Eric Coffi - Courthouse Creek Garagistes

Liza and Eric Coffi jokingly call themselves 'Garagistes' of the cider world. Courthouse Creek is a family-run, small agri-business committed to respecting our land and our community. They grow apples and other fruits and vegetables using sustainable, low impact practices, and produce orchard-based cider by adhering to natural methods. Their cidery model is premised upon the small wine boutiques that they are familiar with from their time living in the Central Coast of California.

Liza Coffi at Courthouse Creek Tasting Room

Initial estimation of build out vs the actual time it took

In the orchard: "We planted our first section of the orchard in 2014, and the second section about six months later.. We knew it would take about four or so years to start seeing an appreciable yield for production purposes. It took six years. This past harvest, the 2020 harvest, was the first year where we had enough apples to produce a decent amount of cider. We ended up with three barrels – about 180 gallons."

In the cidery: "The plan was to launch our cidery as true garagistes — producing in our garage. After doing this and making sure there was a market for our product, the plan was to build a production barn and a separate tasting room on the farm by the second year, maybe third year."

Courthouse Creek outdoor tasting room

The Coffi's started producing some cider in the garage in 2014 (which is partly why they are called garagistes!) , but the real first year of production was 2015. That first and second year, 2015-2016, they produced 450 cases, or about 18 barrels. Says Eric, "Because our methods are low-fi (ie, no filtering, no fining, adhering to natural methods), this initial build-out was very basic.

[ The Coffi's had an oak barrel fermenting in their living room - and used the family's two car garage as the cidery. True Garagistes![/caption]

By 2016, they knew their plans had to change. Somewhere in the middle of building the production barn they realized that there was no way they could afford to build a separate tasting room. So, they converted the front third of the production barn into the tasting room. They opened the tasting room in March of 2017 and are currently expanding this tasting room to get to the square footage they anticipated having from inception.

Initial estimate of production (barrels) vs what the actual production is now or where you expect it to grow in next 5 years post covid

We initially planned to reach 3000 cases, or roughly 120 barrels, by year three (2018). Actual production has not hit our target:

• In 2017 season 935 cases (750ml) and 1395 gals in kegged product = 60 barrels.
• In 2018 season 1250 cases (750ml) and 1000 gals in kegged product = 65 barrels
• In 2019 season 1250 cases (750ml) and 1000 gals in kegged product = 65 barrels
• In 2020 season 1050 cases (750ml) and 850 gals in kegged product = 56 barrels

Initial projections included a split of about 75% tasting room sales, and 25% distribution.

Says Eric, "The reality for us is simple—the tasting room model works very well. Indeed, the silver lining of COVID has been a boon at the farm—we had the space in the orchard for people to properly social distance. Our new projections are more of an 85 to 90% tasting room, and the remainder targeted distribution at small, local bottle shops and high-end restaurants."

Equipment you love having on hand from the start

• Barrel steamer

Equipment you would reconsider had you known then what you know now.

• "For the orchard, we didn't need to put in irrigation. We put in a drip line in the first section, but realized we don't need it, we can successfully dry farm in Virginia."
• Purchased a good pump straight away—and do not skimped on a cheaper model. The Coffi's use a pump from US-FIP
• It is important to really map out your production flow so you can get a handle on what you need in regards to hoses, fittings, etc. It is a bit of pain to buy things piecemeal, or on the fly.

2-3 Tips for folks getting into this industry from the Garagistes!

• Know "Your who and why?"
  • Who are you, and why do you want to start a cidery. This is critical for a few reasons. One is that if you know who you are and why you want to do it, it makes it easier to figure out the what—like, what kind of style cider you want to make, what kind of tasting room experience do you want, etc. Another, probably the most important, is that it makes marketing and advertising that much easier—it is far easier to market your own truth than to make up some story and brand after the fact.
• Whatever size production space you think you need, double it.
• After mapping out production flow and get an idea of the volume of cider you anticipate making, make sure you map out your tasting room.
  • IF you are going to rely mostly on tasting room for your stream of income, make sure the tasting room can actually sell your volume. How many seats can you fit in your tasting room? What is the projected average ticket per customer? How many times do you anticipate turning over a seat? If you don't have the room to sell your volume, you won't.

Contact Courthouse Creek Cider

• Website: https://courthousecreek.com/
• Buy Courthouse Creek Cider

Mentions in this Chat

• CiderCon2021 February 3-5, 2021 - A virtual trade conference for the cider industry hosted by the American Cider Association
• New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now.
• Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:
  • Q: What temperature should one's apple juice be at before pitching yeast?
• Eliza Greenman - grafting orchards - https://elizapples.com

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Securing a Trademark

This episode is Part 2 of the series "Building a Cidery". In Part 1 episode 255 "What is a Trademark" and "Why it matters" was presented by attorney Kevin Regan. Both episodes on Trademark Law were originally presented by attorney Kevin Regan at CiderCon 2020.

If you would like to view the power point presentation that Kevin is referring to during this lecture, you will find it as a free download at the Cider Chat Patreon page. While there, please consider becoming a patron of Cider Chat to help keep this chat on the air.

Take the steps to secure your trademark

Brand names and images become a part of an owner's persona. Getting the public emotionally attached to a brand is a good thing and exactly what one might hope to have happen when building a business. Securing one's brand is time well spent.

There are steps that one can take now, whether you have been in business for 20 years or are in the startup phase, to set a solid foundation for your brand. Kevin delivers tips and info to help navigate the key steps to Building a Cidery.

In episode 256, Kevin shares the steps necessary to secure a trademark.

• Common Law Trademarks
• TM vs R on your brand
• Use and Commerce in trademark law
• Intent to Use applications
• Consent agreement with trademarks
• Distinctive Trademarks
  • not generic
• Descriptive Trademark
• Policing your trademark

Contact Kevin Regan

Website: https://lowegrahamjones.com/attorneys/kevin-regan/

Cell: 206 601 -5180

Mentions in this Chat

CiderCon2021 February 3-5, 2021 - A virtual trade conference for the cider industry hosted by the American Cider Association

New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now.

Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:

• Q: Do you need to rehydrate dry yeast?

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
• Cider Chat FaceBook Page
• Cider Chat YouTube

Trademark Defined

This episode kicks off a new series called "Building a Cidery". This episode and #256 are both on Trademark Law as presented by attorney Kevin Regan at CiderCon 2020.

If you would like to view the power point presentation that Kevin is referring to during this lecture, you will find it as a free download at the Cider Chat Patreon page. While there, please consider becoming a patron of Cider Chat to help keep this chat on the air.

Why Trademarks Matter

Brand names and images become a part of an owner's persona. Getting the public emotionally attached to a brand is a good thing and exactly what one might hope to have happen when building a business. Securing one's brand is time well spent.

There are steps that one can take now, whether you have been in business for 20 years or are in the startup phase, to set a solid foundation for your brand. Kevin delivers tips and info to help navigate the key steps to Building a Cidery.

In episode 256, Kevin shares the steps necessary to secure a trademark.

Contact Kevin Regan

Website: https://lowegrahamjones.com/attorneys/kevin-regan/

Phone: 206 601 -5180 Mentions in this Chat

CiderCon2021 February 3-5, 2021 - A virtual trade conference for the cider industry hosted by the American Cider Association

New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now.

Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:

• Q: Do you need to rehydrate dry yeast?

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
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Blending as Maker like Chef

Blending is a key part of cidermaking. It can take place at the pressing of the apple juice prior to ferment or after the cider has finished fermenting. Knowing when to blend is not something you can learn from reading a book, because is not a strict science. To blend well requires a fine palate, a developed nose and a bounty of apple knowledge.

Makers are much like chefs in a kitchen. They both may be following a recipe, but the final product is reliant upon their own palate and understanding of the ingredients. Michelin Star chefs don't happen over night and neither do fine cidermakers.

Featured Guest in this Episode 254

For this episode on blending, I wanted to hear from Chuck Shelton of Albemarle Ciderworks & Vintage Virginia Apples. Chuck credits author of Apples of North America: Exceptional Varieties for Gardeners, Growers, and Cooks Tom Burford (1935-2020) a champion of heirloom apples and author of Ben Watson author of Cider, Hard and Sweet: History, Traditions, and Making Your Own (Second Edition) and Peter J.Hatch, author of The Fruits and Fruit Trees of Monticello who also happens to be a professional gardener and historian in the restoration care at Thomas Jefferson's Monticello.

Albemarle produces both single varietal ciders and blends. I have found the ciders from this Virginia cidery that is family owned to be perfectly balanced representation of what Chuck refers to as American Cider.

Chuck Shelton

Also joining this chat is maker David Timmerman. Chuck wanted David to join in because as he puts it, "His palate is better than mine."

David Timmerman Filling Albemarle Press

I met David myself at the 2018 CiderCon in Baltimore, Maryland and then again when he came along on the 2018 Normandy Cider Tour that I led via Totally Cider Tours. Like Chuck, I agree that David has an exemplary palate and is just simply a fine person - making this working relationship at Albemarle a perfect blend.

David Pressing Red Flesh 2019

Contact info for Albemarle Ciderworks and Vintage Virginia Apples

Tasting Room and Information

2545 Rural Ridge Lane North Garden, VA 22959 Tasting Room Hours and Information

Office Phone: 434.297.2326 Tasting Room Phone: 434.979.1663 Email: [email protected]

Mentions in this Chat

CiderCon2021 February 3-5, 2021 - A virtual trade conference for the cider industry hosted by the American Cider Association

New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now.

Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:

• Q: Does Fermentis have liquid and dry yeast for sale and what is the difference?

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
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Harvest the brightest fruit on the Quince Tree

In late 2019, Vermont Quince Company was awarded USDA-funded Specialty Crop Block Grant Program funding through the Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets (VAAFM) to support commercial and backyard growers by compiling and disseminating resources and expertise about growing quince in New England. Knowing when to harvest is key to this discussion!

On March 8, 2020, the #GrowQuince initiative kicked off in West Townshend with a roundtable discussion featuring regional quince growers, followed by a scion exchange. This episode and the upcoming episode 253 is from the West Townsend forum.

Part 2 Factors for the Harvest of Quince

This episode follow up from Part one where Zeke Goodband led us through tips on propagation. In Part 2 he provides tips on when this aromatic fruit is ready to be picked

Additional Topics in Part 2:

• Different varieties
• Cracking of fruit
• Markets for quince
• Storage
• Cold temps before harvest
• Grafting

Contact info for Vermont Quince Company

Website: Vermont Quince

email [email protected]

Facebook page: GrowQuince.

Mentions in this Chat

New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now.

Fermentis by Lesaffre -This week's Q&A with Kevin Lane from Fermentis:

• Q: Are all Fermentis yeast cultures gluten free? For instance, if I choose a yeast typically used by brewers such as a Saison culture can I assume that it too is gluten free?
  • A: Yes, all Fermentis yeast are certified gluten free that are specific for cider.

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
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#GrowQuince - it is easy to do!

In late 2019, Vermont Quince Company was awarded USDA-funded Specialty Crop Block Grant Program funding through the Vermont Agency of Agriculture, Food & Markets (VAAFM) to support commercial and backyard growers by compiling and disseminating resources and expertise about growing quince in New England. The #GrowQuince is helping to spotlight this forgotten fruit

On March 8, 2020, the #GrowQuince initiative kicked off in West Townshend with a roundtable discussion featuring regional quince growers, followed by a scion exchange. This episode and the upcoming episode 253 is from the West Townsend forum.

Part 1 #GrowQuince - Disease/Pest Management

Nan provides an overview of the #GrowQuince goals and then renown horticulturist Zeke Goodband who has extensive experience growing quince for over 25 years leads this conversation.

Contact info for Vermont Quince Company

Website: Vermont Quince

email [email protected]

Facebook page: GrowQuince.

Mentions in this Chat

New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now.

• Fermentis by Lesaffre -
• Q&A on yeast in this episode:What Fermentis yeast cultures are best for creating a dry finish to my cider?I typically use a blend of apples that are high in acid and very low in tannin
  • Answer: Fermentis AB1 and AC4
  • Find all your cider yeast needs via Fermentis

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
• Cider Chat FaceBook Page
• Cider Chat YouTube

Kertelreiter Cider

Kertelreiter Cider is based in the village of Schefflenz in North Baden, Germany. The cidery came about when Irishman Barry Masterson fell in love with a German lass and moved to her homeland to raise a family. Though Barry's first love was beer, this full time land surveyor found himself eyeing and then eventually fermenting the ample supply of culinary apples in his area.

Barry Masterson and reworked cider presses

Kertelreiter is as Barry puts it is "tiny". Considering that in 2017 Kertelreiter produced close to 1000 liters (L) , about 220 gallons "tiny' is likely a good description, but it also lends the maker time to hone one's skills.

Says Barrys, "We'd doubled the orchard size in early 2019, and had been thinking about selling our cider. I had planned to step up to 2000 liters as a start. However, the harvest was really poor as a result of a combination of stress from drought the previous year and if I remember correctly a disagreeable frost. Because we had excess capacity due to the lack of apple, I went begging for Perry Pear trees to harvest from. In the end we managed just short of 1000L again allowing up to produce enough to make a start with selling."

To supplement the apple harvest, Perry Pears are used for both making Perry and to add structure such as tannins to the cider.

Anu, the dog, and a Perry Pear tree

Barry estimates that, "If the orchard at Kertelreiter carried a full load, we could easily make 5000L (1320 gallons) or more. But for the moment, I'm happy to stay small..."

Kertelreiter has a full line up of Ciders, Perry and Fruit Ciders, such as Out of the Sun, a cider with quince!

Harvest rights for orchards in Germany for Kertelreiter

Barry and his wife were concerned about the amount of fruit going to waste, especially as the local town hall stopped auctioning off harvest rights, so they have tried to fill this gap by creating a local fruit tree exchange. This means they try to connect people with trees that are not being used and people who would like fruit for making their own juice or cider. It's early days, but Barry is confident they can build a good catalog, and maybe combine it with teaching people to make their own cider to encourage use of fruit that would otherwise go to waste."

Providing structure in Kertelreiter ciders

Barry add Perry Pears to his cider to bring in some tannins and he also uses wood aging to add structure to some of his ciders. For instance using an ex Cabernet Sauvignon Barrique, and a really old German cider barrel that he says helps mature and soften the acids in his ciders. And he's been using oak chips and other kinds of wood to add other dimensions, while trying to keep the fruit to the fore".

Organic Tools apple picker upper - contact Barry for more info

Contact Kertelreiter Cider

website: https://kertelreiter.de/en/home/

Address:

• Kertelweg 4
• 74850 Schefflen

Telephone +49 (0)6293 927512 email: [email protected] Twitter: @kertelreiter Barry's Twitter Feed: @barmas

Mentions in this Chat

Tip of the glass to the following sponsors of this episode 251

• New York International Cider Competition - February 21, 2021 3rd Annual New York International Cider Competition for commercial makers. Judges are real buyers making this competition stand apart from all others in cider. Send in your ciders now
• Fermentis by Lesaffre - Find all your cider yeast needs via Fermentis

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
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• Cider Chat YouTube

We are celebrating the 250th episode of Cider Chat.

Each season we invite The Nose to come on into the Cider House recording room and have a chat. We also have the opportunity to hear a bit more on how The Nose became The Nose! She even has a special tip on how to train your own nose!

We take look back at Season 5 of Cider Chat and look forward to the year ahead in Season 6!

Check out the New**** Cider Chat Swag featuring the Cider Zone Apple!

Cider Zone t-shirt - Cider Chat Swag[/caption]

Mentions in this Chat

• Clarkdale Orchard
• SpaceTime Mead & Cider Works
• EsoTerra Ciderworks
• InCiderJapan
• Duckchicken Cider
• Ross Cider and Perry Company
• Process NMR Analysis

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
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Old School Cider for Modern Times episode 249 is about this cider podcaster's backstory on making cider over the course of 26 years.

This episode was inspired by my good friend Ryan Monkman of FieldBird Cider in Ontario. It was his idea to interview me about my backstory in cider as this podcast rolled up to episode 250. Seeing that I never turn down an opportunity to talk with Ryan so of course I said "Yes". Ryan came to the recording with 4 categories of questions.

• How
• Wild
• Why
• Mystery Box question

I hope you enjoy this special episode with guest interviewer Ryan Monkman and myself as we take you behind the scenes of Cider Chat and how we got here.

A box of Golden Hornets

Ryan Monkman, FieldBird Cider

Mentions in this Chat

• FieldBird's Flock once a month cider special - providing you a chance to get select experimental bottles
  • Go to http://eepurl.com/hj2EZX and sign up now for Flock news!

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

• Listen also at iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher (for Android), iHeartRadio , Spotify and wherever you love to listen to podcasts.
• Follow on Cider Chat's blog, social media and podcast
• Twitter @ciderchat
• Instagram: @ciderchatciderville
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The New England Quince Taste Test 2020 was hosted by Vermont Quince. Nan Stefanik founded Vermont Quince in 2012 and coined the hashtag #growquince Her passion for this pomme is contagious and her quince based products help to further showcase the versatility of the quince.

This year's New England Quince Taste Test was a virtual event. Boxes of quince juice, raw quince and poached quince were sent out to a group of tasters that included chefs and author of Simply Quince Barbara Ghazarian who is also known as the "Queen of Quince". A box was also sent to Cider Chat central where The Nose and Ria tasted and filled out the Taste sheet to be sent back to Vermont Quince. Do expect a follow up summary of the tasting results once the results are in.

List of Quince varieties in the 2020 New England Quince Test

• Aromatnaya
  • A Russian variety that bears a very large, bright yellow, aromatic fruit with a delicious, lemony flavor. Aromatnaya fruit can be eaten fresh, when thinly sliced and used to make marmalade and jellies.

• Kuganskaya
  • Known to be from the region of the southern Caucasus, north of Turkey and Armenia.
• Orange
  • Expect ripening to occur October through December and to also extend through February in some colder areas. The Orange Quince is a self fertile tree and requires 300 chill hours.
• Smyrna
  • Extremely large fruit with light yellow flesh, bright yellow skin. Attractive tree (or multi-stemmed shrub) has dark green foliage & very showy bloom. Tolerates wet soil.
• van Deman - this quince variety was developed by Luther Burbank, (March 7, 1849 – April 11, 1926) who was an American botanist and horticulturist based in California. Van Deman bears good crops of large and delicious, bright yellow fruit. Expect a spicy flavored from this quince.

Poached Quince

Quinces are gritty, astringent, and hard even when ripe. The bitter astringency is as a result of the tannins. The tannins in the quinces are destroyed when cooked, while the delicate rich flowery aroma of a raw quince is maintained, turning the hard, tannic, astringent fruit into a softened and milder flavored fruit.

The testers did not know what variety corresponded with the samples provided, making this a "blind tasting"

This episode is a condensed version of the taste test conducted by The Nose and Ria.

Help Support Cider Chat Please donate today. Help keep the chat thriving!

Find this episode and all episodes at the page for Cider Chat's podcasts.

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