Copywriters Podcast

Do you have an imaginary friend?

Whether you do or not, today we’re going to talk about why a particular imaginary friend can solve one of the biggest problems copywriters are having today.

And that problem is, your copy’s not connecting with the right target group of prospects.

So your conversions are way lower than you’d like them to be.

Now, the perfect solution to that would be to have a real-live focus group of honest, unflinching prospects available to you 24/7. People you could ask about their problems, their fears, their hopes, their dreams.

But… sorry. You can’t.

However, what we’re going to talk about today is the next best thing. And the good news is, you can build this imaginary friend pretty easily from real-world data.

So you get the equivalent of your 24/7 focus group, but it’s not high-maintenance. In fact, it doesn’t require any care and feeding at all.

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Ever spend hours, just waiting for the “perfect time” to start writing?

Maybe first you decide to do a guided visualization. Or answer a few emails. Could be that there’s that perfect song that always gets your juices flowing… or a motivational youtube video you love…

Well…

Here’s a tip: Don’t wait and don’t find an excuse to do something else.

Just start.

I know it sounds crazy. Maybe impossible.

But here’s the thing:

When you’re not writing, it almost never “feels like” the right time to start writing.

And, as it turns out, it’s nearly always better to write something bad than to write nothing at all.

As the great Gary Halbert said, “Motion is better than meditation.”

That is what we’ll talk about today.

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What if you found you were sitting on tons of money that you didn’t even know about?

It sounds like the beginning of a new Netflix series, right?

But this happened in real life to our returning champion, Agency owner and entrepreneur Cath Rehorn.

She will be the first to admit that numbers are not her. She’s a words and people person, not a data ninja.

But she developed a conversation with ChatGPT to get it to review her Stripe data, even though, as she also admits, at first she really didn’t have any idea what she was doing.

And she realized that with minimum effort–like, mainly, sending out a few emails–she could add 54,000 British pounds, or about $70,000 US, to her revenues every year.

And with only a little more effort, she reckoned, she could bring in even more.

Her thought process and how she tackled a clumsy problem with such persistence and humor should be of interest, and possibly very valuable, to anyone who runs a business and even does a pretty bad job of keeping track of their numbers.

You probably remember Cath because her podcast, titled Selling Them With Kindness, got a lot of engagement and some really heartfelt comments from listeners.

Cath’s business is called Kind Copy. She lives in Wales in the UK. She has a true family business, since it employs herself, her husband, her sister and 2 other team members.

Article about how Cath used ChatGPT:

https://catherinereohorn.substack.com/p/i-got-more-clarity-on-my-business?r=1xjc2

Cath’s website: https://kindcopy.co.uk/

Cath’s social media links:

https://x.com/kindcopy

https://www.instagram.com/kindcopyuk/

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Our very special guest today is Angus Fletcher, professor of story science at Ohio State’s Project Narrative. His research has been called “life-changing” by Brené Brown and “mind blowing” by Malcolm Gladwell; has been endorsed by psychologists, neuroscientists, and doctors such as Martin Seligman and Antonio Damasio; and has been supported by institutions ranging from the National Science Foundation to the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences.

In 2023, he was awarded the Commendation Medal by the U.S. Army for his “groundbreaking research” with U.S. Army Special Operations into primal intelligence.

His latest book is called Primal Intelligence: You Are Smarter Than You Know.

There are very few books or writers who have affected me as much as Angus and this book have.

In the few weeks since I have read it, my coaching has changed. My thoughts about intuition, imagination and emotion have changed. I’ve watched close to 20 videos featuring Angus on youtube… and I don’t typically ever watch that many videos about one person.

Dr. Fletcher says that as humans, we think in story, not in words or pictures. He has plenty of research and street cred to back this up. Hollywood studios consult with him regularly. In addition to everything else, he’s a screenwriter, and a very compelling author.

I could go on and on but that wouldn’t leave much time for us to talk, would it?

So I will start with something familiar, and soon you will discover how mind-blowingly different some of Angus’s groundbreaking ideas are.

But first, the amazingly familiar part…

Copy is powerful. You’re responsible for how you use what you hear on this podcast. Most of the time, common sense is all you need. But if you make extreme claims... and/or if you’re writing copy for offers in highly regulated industries like health, finance, and business opportunity... you may want to get a legal review after you write and before you start using your copy. My larger clients do this all the time.

1. A lot of people in the direct marketing community have felt boxed-in by the conventional wisdom that the only true kind of story is a hero’s journey. I believe you have a very different point of view about stories, that includes that anatomy of the brain. Could you tell us about it?

2. Let’s talk about primal intelligence. When I first found out about your book and before I read it, my guess about primal intelligence was, well, pretty primal. Lizard brain stuff. That is, the animal description that you either mate with something, or you kill it, or you eat it.

You have a different and I think much more sophisticated and I would say much more useful definition of primal intelligence and it has to do with four qualities of thinking that have nothing to do with logic. Could you talk about that?

3. Our listeners are copywriters and business owners who use direct response copy in their businesses. Pragmatic creativity is high on the list of capabilities people always want to increase. Could you share your thoughts on what creativity is, from the point of view of primal intelligence? And how to increase our abilities to be creative?

4. In your book there’s a surprisingly long list of people, including politicians, scientists and even a famous classical composer, as well as writers, who have mentioned Shakespeare as a major influence in their lives. What is it about Shakespeare’s work that is so valuable to all these people?

5. Can you give us some more tips about using stories in our content and advertising that will capture people’s attention and help us with our businesses?

6. Tell us about your work with Army special operators?

7. Would you like to give us a preview of the book Primal Intelligence?

Links:

Primal Intelligence

https://www.amazon.com/Primal-Intelligence-Smarter-Than-Know/dp/0593715306

Angus’s LinkedIn Address

https://www.linkedin.com/in/angus-fletcher-99713617/

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A lot of people struggle with email marketing. Today’s special guest, Tom Ruwitch, has been at it for a quarter of a century… and he’s discovered some pretty interesting things about using stories to sell, as well.

In 2001, Tom founded an email marketing business called MarketVolt. This was very early in the online business revolution.

His company licensed their software to businesses worldwide, and used it themselves as part of a full-service agency. He sold the business in 2019.

In 2021, Tom launched Implementum, a marketing platform that creates strategy, done-for-you custom campaigns, and provides training.

We’ll talk about that, but first we’re going to talk about his impressive and very useful new book, Story Power Marketing. His simple and practical approach puts storytelling in marketing within the reach of just about anyone, whether you consider yourself a storyteller or not.

Links:

Story Power Marketing:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1964046335

Get a free copy at

https://yourgiftfromtom.com/david

Tom’s Website:

https://storypowermarketing.com/

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As we record this in mid-October, the world has without a doubt gone absolutely bonkers over AI.

People are making all kinds of extreme predictions: Some see a heaven on Earth in a future with AI, and others confidently predict unmitigated disaster.

But how many of these people are talking from actual in-the-trenches experience? Who can take the long view based on what they’ve actually done and seen… and an informed view of what’s possible for the future?

I personally know only one person who fills that bill, and he’s our returning champion. He’s Sam Woods, our very special guest today.

Sam has been in the game for nine years, while most of us haven’t been there half as long.

In fact, when it comes to AI and copywriting, I don’t know of anyone who’s been in it longer than Sam has.

He got started with machine learning in 2016 and generative AI in 2019. He was a pioneer in prompt engineering for AI copywriting, and marketing.

Sam has advised Fortune 1,000 companies and teams across the world, as well as advised and consulted with CEOs and other C-Suite executives.

He describes himself as “a strategic AI architect who advises C-Suite leaders on turning artificial intelligence into their most powerful competitive advantage.”

But more important to us, he’s a seasoned and successful expert using AI for writing copy that gets results.

Who better than that to help us see the bigger picture?

Sam’s website:

https://samueljwoods.com/

Other resources:

https://bionicbusiness.com

https://www.copywriting.ai/

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Our guest today does something I’ve been looking for in a guest on this podcast for a long time–he helps beginning copywriters get started and become success.

Matthew Volkwyn is a coach, copywriter, marketer and entrepreneur. He doesn’t just talk the talk; he walks the walk.

Matt has helped dozens of business coaches rapidly grow their own businesses with email marketing, a he’s built three six-figure businesses of his own.

I invited Matt on after he had me as a guest on his podcast, and I found out he coaches beginning copywriters, which I don’t do myself, since my clients are more experienced copywriters and business owners who use copy.

I suggested he come on and we have a nuts and bolts conversation about coaching copywriters, and he readily agreed.

Matthew’s links:

Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/matthewjvolkwyn

Copy Systems:

https://www.skool.com/copysystems/about

Copy Dojo:

https://www.copydojo.com/

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Have you ever been in a meeting where people are brainstorming ideas, and each idea is more idiotic and off-target than the last one?

It has happened to all of us.

And if you’re an experienced copywriter, sometimes it’s hard to bite your tongue.

Because the cheerful but inexperienced leader of the meeting has announced a rule:

“There are no bad ideas!”

Well, yes there are.

In that meeting, you just heard a whole pile of them.

I can almost guarantee what the problem was.

There are several steps, including a crucial step, that everyone in the meeting never took.

Falling in love with uninformed, aimless creativity is one of the biggest causes of wasted advertising dollars imaginable.

And I’m going to tell you that missing piece, that missing step.

I can’t promise that everyone in the next meeting will take it ahead of time.

But if they do, I promise you’ll get much better ideas, even if you’re the only copywriter there.

Books:

Applied Imagination, by Alex Osborn https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009CXTZ84/

Advertising Headlines That Make You Rich, by David Garfinkel https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00513MQ2G

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Legendary NY Yankee Yogi Berra said it best:

“It’s tough to make predictions, especially about the future.”

He’s right, you know.

But there’s one important exception, and I don’t blame Yogi because, as talented a player and a coach as he was, Yogi wasn’t a copywriter.

So he didn’t know about the important exception we’ll talk about today: showing your prospect a compelling future.

Not every copywriter does this, but if you don’t, you’re missing out… on conversions.

And even if you do, we’re going to talk about a better way to show a compelling future than most people are currently using.

If you like the stories on today’s show and you’d like to find out about a lot more, that will really power up your copy, let me invite you to check out my book The Persuasion Story Code.

It’s on Amazon and we’ll put a link in the show notes.

The Persuasion Story Code

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

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A little over a month ago we did a last-minute podcast about an audacious experiment our special guest today, Nick O’Connor, did with Glenn Fisher and the financial publishing giant Marketwise:

Glenn told us how they put together a special program called Financial Copy U, which would train 12 copywriters ABSOLUTELY FREE on how to write copy for financial publishers.

With the understanding that some graduates might be offered full-fledged copywriting jobs on the spot, depending, of course, how they did in the training.

Now that Financial Copy U is in full swing, we asked Nick to tell us more about what he and Glenn did and are doing right now. Seeing as there’s not enough other solid training for financial copywriting going on right now, at least that I know of, I realize Nick has a lot of valuable information for us.

Among his many impressive accomplishments, Nick was Head of Copy and Publisher for Agora’s financial imprint in the UK, Southbank Investment Research.

Today, as well as co-founding The Fix, he writes freelance for financial publishers in the UK, US and Australia and consults with Agora companies around the world.

Nick told us about the origin of Financial Copy U, why he, Glenn and Marketwise decided to do it, the difference between winning applications to the program and those that didn’t make it, and a lot more.

Great information about financial copywriting and copywriting in general!

For more info about the program:

https://www.financialcopyu.com

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