Copywriters Podcast

It’s the sure-fire strategy that makes you overconfident.

It looks like this:

The copy’s loud.

Aggressive.

Alpha-male on a double dose of adderall.

It’s practically SCREAMING at you to buy.

And you know what?

Sometimes it works.

But not most of the time. Especially these days.

Hyper-aggressive copy is just a huge risk you don’t want to take.

And here’s why:

While it’s true that pressure might trigger an action, it almost never creates belief.

And belief is what you need to MAKE the sale… and KEEP the sale.

My co-host Nathan is going to lead us out of the land of testosterone intoxication and into an exciting new world, of calmly and irreversibly creating BELIEF in your copy… so pressure isn’t necessary.

Because when they believe… they buy.

Find out more about Nathan's approach at

https://cultishcontent.com/

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Today we take a deep dive into the part of copywriting that people talk about all the time.

And even though people talk about this all the time, most of them don’t really understand it.

That is, psychology.

Not the kind of psychology you experience in a therapist’s office—although there’s a little bit of overlap.

Not what you’ll find in brightly colored grid of buyer personas.

Not mindset.

No, we’re talking about the psychology that has to do with how people really behave. What actually makes them respond.

This is the kind of psychology that proves out over and over again, through unforgiving tests in the marketplace.

We’ll call it “copywriting psychology.” It’s the psychology behind copy that converts.

And here’s the thing:

It’s not always polite. It may not even be pleasant.

And sometimes, it’s offensive to the way people look at the world.

But copywriting psychology is not trying to win a popularity contest.

Instead, it’s trying to answer a very serious, and sometimes uncomfortable, question.

That is:

Does it convert?

Remember, we’re talking about persuasion in the wild here.

After all, when they’re looking at your copy, your prospects aren’t really sitting in a focus group, ponderously exploring their feelings and trying to express them so as to look good in front of others.

Here’s what your prospects are really doing:

They’re scrolling through emails… half-watching TikTok videos… and trying to remember where they left their debit card.

Copywriting psychology doesn’t rely on a theory or a particular set of beliefs.

It relies on observed and measured behavior.

Therefore, to get really good at this, you learn not to listen so much to what people say… but to pay very close attention to what they do.

When I mentor clients, a large part of what we do ends up coming from developing an almost sixth sense for copywriting psychology.

What we’ll do here today is a crash course to help you move to the next level in this important set of copywriting tools.

So, a couple of resources for you if you really want to get copywriting psychology under your belt.

If you are a working copywriter with at least two years’ experience and in the six figure level of income, you should consider applying for mentoring with me.

I don’t work with beginners, but if you have a successful business and you write copy, or you have a strong freelance copywriting business, check out my mentoring. It’s a serious one-year program and it can easily take you to the next level. It’s expensive, but clients find again and again that it more than pays for itself.

In fact, some of them, who run 9 figure businesses, have stayed with me for years.

And some freelance copywriters have as well.

Now, what we talked about today is just a small part of the copywriting psychology we cover during the year, because most of it comes up when we go over projects and promotions you’re actively working on.

You can find out more, including the application, at https://garfinkelcoaching.com

The second resource is for everyone and I can’t recommend it highly enough, even though I wrote it. This week I got two messages from clients who were bragging they got someone else to get the book.

Why? Because the information in it can really make a big difference in your copy and in your business. And I haven’t seen the same information anywhere else.

Of course I’m talking about The Persuasion Story Code. It’s on Amazon and here’s the link: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CFD2KXNQ

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Sometimes copy fails because it’s just not executed well enough.

And also, copy that simply misses the mark — doesn’t align with the target prospects and what’s on their minds — won’t do well either.

But you can have all the fundamentals in place and done well, and sales can still fail to happen.

Why?

That would be because the strategy behind the copy was weak or even non-existent.

Today, we’re talking about a blind spot that kills a lot of otherwise good copy—and how our special guest today, Jamie Thompson, coaches copywriters how to see what others miss entirely.

That would be, of course, strategy and strategic thinking.

Jamie’s a seasoned pro. Headquartered in Edinburgh, Scotland, he’s been writing copy for 10 years and counts among his clients such giants as Amazon, USAID, and Lenovo.

But he’s had many other clients—over 500 in all. And lately he’s made it his mission to teach copywriters how to think like strategists.

80% of Jamie’s clients come back for return engagements. So you’ll definitely want to know some of what he knows.

Follow up with Jamie:

Free course, Think Like A Strategic Copywriter: https://brandnewcopy.com/free-copywriting-course/

Contact: [email protected]

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Three weeks ago, we had a very special Old Masters Series show:

The Art of War, Copywriting Edition.

But we only covered half the book, so that made the previous episode

Part 1.

Today we cover the rest of the book, Chapters 7 through 13.

And that makes today Part 2.

Here’s what you need to know:

The Art of War was written by Sun Tzu (SOOON-tzeh) about 2500 years ago, as a treatise on military strategy.

The Art of War reaches far beyond military warfare, however. Business overachievers like Elon Musk and Mark Benioff, founder of salesforce, are among many who have praised this book.

That’s because the principles in this book are universal and very powerful in any situation where you’re in a struggle–and getting people to buy from the written word certainly counts as a struggle.

Today you'll see exactly how Sun Tzu's principles, when applied to copy, can help you sharpen your copy, position your offers better, and persuade prospects more naturally.

I’ve gotta tell you, I was surprised when I was preparing this how easily his principles can be applied to copy.

Now, there’s a reason The Art of War has lasted for more than two thousand years.

It’s not just because people like reading about swords and spears.

It’s because the way Sun Tzu thought about winning applies anywhere there’s competition — whether it’s two armies on a field, two companies in a market… or you, sitting at a keyboard, trying to out-sell the other guy.

When you’re writing copy, you’re not just “putting words together.” You’re maneuvering. Positioning. Adapting. Watching for the right moment to strike.

If you’ve ever had a great piece of copy flop… or a headline you loved get ignored… or a competitor suddenly steal your customers…

…you’ve felt the same frustration a general feels when the plan falls apart halfway through the battle.

Sun Tzu didn’t leave that to chance. He studied how to win before the fight began — and how to keep control until the very last move.

Today, we’re going to tap into the last seven chapters of his book.

These are the chapters about keeping your opponent guessing… matching your tactics to the exact ground you’re on… knowing when to press hard and when to pull back… and gathering the kind of intelligence that lets you win before the other side knows what happened.

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In the 1980s, before Internet marketing had even really begun, our very special guest today and returning champion was working as a tech writer in the foreign exchange trading department of Bankers Trust in New York.

In his new book “How The Web Won,The Inside Story of How a Motley Crew of Outsiders Hijacked the Information Superhighway and Struck a Blow for Human Freedom,” Ken McCarthy writes:

“Working with foreign exchange traders taught me an important lesson about the need for speed in business: Windows of opportunity open and close fast. That understanding, combined with my ‘discovery’ of the rudiments of direct marketing, has been worth millions to me and a whole lot more to my clients.”

That’s one of the many powerful lessons from Ken’s new book, “How The Web Won.” He’s been around Internet marketing longer than anyone else I know–and possibly longer than anyone, period.

In 1994, he sponsored the first conference about the business potential of the World Wide Web. With keynote speaker Marc Andreeson, at the time, the 23-year old co-founder of Netscape, an early Internet browser and the first important one.

Time magazine pointed out that Ken was the first person to identify the importance and business power of the click-through rate, which today, of course, is the basis of the roughly half-a-trillion-dollars a year Facebook and Google make selling pay per click advertising.

In 2002, Ken started an event called The System Seminar, which I attended a few years later myself. Met Frank Kern, Gary Halbert, Harlan Kilstein, and a whole bunch of other people who were, or became, legends in direct marketing.

We could spend the rest of the show talking about all of Ken’s accomplishments, but I’d rather he tell you about his book, “How The Web Won.”

So Ken, welcome, and congrats on your new book!

1. So in 1993, you attended a conference called One BBS CON. I’m not sure from your book if that was the moment that changed your life, since you’d been doing some pretty good pulling rabbits out of hats with direct marketing before then. But could you talk about if that was an inflection point and how what you learned at that conference influenced you going forward?

2. Could you talk about being invited to Dan Kennedy’s conference in 1993? I can’t imagine a lot of the hard core direct marketers who paid $5000 to be there were all that receptive at that time to what you had to say. Were they?

3. Until 1989, it was forbidden by the U.S. government to use the Internet for commercial purposes. How fast did that change in the 90s, and what were the key moments for that? How did your San Francisco conference fit into all of that?

4. When did Internet marketing as we know it today really start to get traction?

5. What would you say was the big mistake made by many of the companies that went bankrupt in the dot-bomb of 2000 – and how long did it take for the direct marketing way of thinking take to catch on?

6. What prompted you to launchThe System seminar in 2002?

7. Any other key moments between the early days and today, that you’d like to talk about?

Ken’s book, How The Web Won

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DM2GN91Q

HowtheWebWon.com

Get in touch with Ken at: https://kenmccarthy.com

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$6.7 million.

That’s how much mega financial publisher Marketwise paid out to copywriters in royalties in 2024.

And now they’re making an offer so good we had to rush today’s special guest, top copywriter and best-selling author Glenn Fisher, on the show to tell you about it.

The offer is simple, yet overwhelming: FREE training from Marketwise to 12 lucky copywriters… and one of them will be offered a chance to write copy for this publishing giant.

Glenn will tell you all about the training in just a few minutes, but let me tell you first about Glenn:

He knows the value of training himself, because he trained with legends Bill Bonner and Mark Ford at Agora. He then went on to run one of the Agora businesses in the UK.

He wrote Amazon best-seller The Art of the Click, which was also translated into Chinese and Korean.

And, he co-created Financial Copy U with Nick O’Connor and Marketwise, where they will be mentoring 12 writers over 12 weeks, for free, starting in early September.

So if you want to put your name in the hat, today would be a good day.

Links:

Financial Copy U: financialcopyu.com

The Fix, Glenn’s and Nick’s other program: thefixcopywriting.com

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Most copywriters know the classics of our field—but today we’re drawing from a master whose work predates modern advertising by more than two millennia. In this episode of Copywriters Podcast, we’re unpacking Sun Tzu’s The Art of War—a book written over 2,500 years ago, yet still shaping strategy for business titans like Elon Musk and Marc Benioff.

While it was originally written as a guide to military conquest, The Art of War has long been praised for its universal principles of strategy and persuasion. The battlefield may have been different, but the parallels to winning in business—and especially in copywriting—are undeniable.

In this episode, we’ll show you how to translate Sun Tzu’s wisdom into practical tactics for the written word. You’ll discover how ancient principles of planning, positioning, and persuasion can sharpen your copy, strengthen your offers, and give you the edge in today’s competitive marketplace.

What’s surprising is how naturally these lessons map to the challenges copywriters face every day. From anticipating objections, to winning quickly before attention fades, to making your offer feel like the natural choice—Sun Tzu laid out the playbook centuries before advertising even existed.

This is part one of a two-part series, covering the first six chapters of The Art of War. If you’ve ever felt like writing copy is a battle for attention and trust, this episode will give you a fresh perspective—and some timeless strategies—to help you win more often.
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It may have been the furthest thing from what he was thinking when our special guest today, John Caprani, ventured into copywriting.

But he’s come up with a fascinating specialty that’s worth paying attention to, and that’s Local Celebrity Advertising.

See, we all know what so-called “omnipresence” is online. That’s when your prospects see you everywhere, and so they become familiar with you, in the same way they become familiar with a celebrity.

John was working as a construction project manager in 2016 when his boss asked him to start selling projects, too.

It was a logical transition to starting his own copywriting business a couple years later. He ran the gamut of direct response copywriting. Niches like health, wealth, relationships. Fairly familiar stuff.

But last year he found something he really liked–promoting US home service businesses become really well known in their physical, local communities with a method he calls Local Celebrity Advertising.

He’s joining us today to tell us all about it.

Here’s what we asked him:

1. How did you get into the idea of the Local Business Celebrity Program?

2. Could you walk us through a case study or two? Not just the numbers but also comments people have made to you; comments customers or people in the community have made to them; any funny or unexpected things that have happened that you'd enjoy sharing.

3. Did you try anything else before for local marketing that didn't work? Why do you think it didn't work?

4. What are the big mistakes you see other people making in promoting local service businesses?

5. What are some insider tips for video marketing you could share with our listeners?

6. What are some direct marketing ideas that you think more people should embrace and implement?

7. Tell us more about your program; who it's for and who it's not for; how it works; and how people can contact you if they're interested.

If you’re interested in his Local Celebrity Advertising service on Facebook & Instagram for 90 days, he’ll send you the equipment you need so you can record professional videos with him right from your office computer.

You can reach John by sending him a friend request on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jdcaprani
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One way that AI can save you from expending massive amounts of blood, sweat and tears is a way that a lot of people aren’t using.

And that involves its incredible ability to analyze, find trends, and organize information.

On the face of it, all that sounds pretty boring and hardly applicable to copywriters and business owners.

But today’s returning champion, Cath Reohorn, has used her impressive imagination to come up with some incredibly simple, smart and powerful ways to use AI that are VERY interesting… and could be useful to you as well.

You probably remember Cath because her podcast, titled Selling Them With Kindness, got a lot of engagement and some heartfelt comments from listeners.

Cath’s business is called Kind Copy. She lives in Wales in the UK. She has a true family business, since it employs herself, her husband, her sister and 2 other team members.

What’s even more impressive, they grew with organic marketing to over £1m/month before she ever ran an ad.

Today, we dig into Cath’s personal, practical AI innovations.

–

Cath’s website: https://kindcopy.co.uk/

Cath’s social media links:

https://x.com/kindcopy

https://www.instagram.com/kindcopyuk/

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Can you picture yourself having the guts and imagination to bring 14 of the top copywriters in the business together to share their best action steps using AI to make money and/or save time?

I certainly couldn’t, but our guest today is an adventurous man and a successful copywriter-wrangler. Because he did it.

Please welcome John McIntyre, who recently invited me and a host of others. This wasn’t a theoretical roundtable.

Each of us had to give ONE workflow, technique, or method we were using AI to make our own copywriting business better. Some of the other guys were David Deutsch, Bob Bly, Daniel Throssell, Chris Orzechowski, and

Jon Benson–to name a few.

We each had 45 minutes to jump right into it. John encouraged us to treat it like a mentoring session with him on our topic. No fancy sets, no intro, no slide decks–just real, hands-on stuff.

I’ll confess, I spent the entire available time in the 24 hours before my session preparing. Because, and here’s a secret, it takes a lot of prep to make a session look spontaneous, if it’s any good.

My session was how to get Chat GPT to pull persuasion stories out of you, in your own words. I would say it was a success.

And John’s a highly successful copywriter in his own right, as well as a terrific interviewer.

But today we turned the tables on him and interview him about what he learned producing and promoting AI Copywriting Secrets.

This is what we asked him:

1. What prompted you to put this together in the first place?

2. What did you find people had to say about when NOT to use AI, as well as how they use it themselves?

3. What was the most surprising thing you heard from the interviews?

4. What were the most valuable things you heard about using AI?

5. How did what you heard from us change how you look at, or use, AI?

6. Based on what you learned, what advice would you give to a copywriter who’s been hesitant to even try AI up to this point?

7.You know this program better than anyone. Could you give us a quick tour of what’s in it overall and what someone either with little experience, or with a lot of experience, will get out of it?

Here’s a link to find out more about the program:

Get It Here

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