In a time when influence is currency and spiritual leaders are often shaped by worldly ambition, Kyle Strobel invites us to consider a different path: the cruciform way of the Lamb. Drawing from his book The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb and years of spiritual, theological reflection, Kyle explores how Christian leaders are tempted to use manipulative, domineering, and even demonic forms of power to achieve good ends—and why that inevitably corrodes the gospel.

About Kyle

Dr. Kyle Strobel is a spiritual theologian, writer, and speaker focused on the intersection of spiritual formation and Christian leadership. He serves as an associate professor of spiritual theology at Talbot School of Theology and is the co-author of The Way of the Dragon or the Way of the Lamb, a provocative exploration of power in the church. A scholar of Jonathan Edwards and co-host of several reflective podcasts, Kyle brings academic depth and pastoral sensitivity to questions of character, formation, and the dangers of worldly success in ministry.

Episode note: Apologies for the sound quality. We had some technical difficulties and recorded this on a sub-par recording platform (the free kind ;-) Huge thanks to Chris for being so gracious and adjusting to make this interview happen!

In this compelling conversation, Old Testament scholar and missiologist Christopher J. H. Wright unpacks the Bible’s warnings about idolatry—especially its political forms. Drawing from his book Here Are Your Gods, Wright explains how ancient Israel’s struggle with Baal worship mirrors modern Christian nationalism, prosperity theology, and culture war tribalism. He challenges the transactional logic of false gods, the allure of national deities, and the temptation to baptize political power with religious language. With wisdom, warmth, and prophetic clarity, Wright invites us back to a vision of the living God rooted not in empire or economics, but in justice, humility, and love.

About Chris

Dr. Christopher J. H. Wright is a renowned Old Testament scholar, theologian, and international voice in Christian mission. He serves as the Global Ambassador and Ministry Director of the Langham Partnership, founded by John Stott, and is the author of numerous influential books, including The Mission of God, Here Are Your Gods, and The Old Testament in Seven Sentences. A passionate advocate for biblical justice, global Christianity, and the missional reading of Scripture, Wright combines rigorous scholarship with pastoral heart. He also hosts the podcast On Mission with Chris Wright, where he highlights voices from the Majority World church. His work can be found at ChristopherJHWright.com and langham.org.

In this episode, Old Testament scholar Tremper Longman III joins the show to unpack how Scripture can shape our public and political imagination without succumbing to partisanship or Christian nationalism. Drawing on decades of biblical scholarship, Longman explores how the Bible offers moral and theological wisdom—not direct public policy—guiding Christians toward faithful engagement in a pluralistic society. From discussing the misapplication of Old Testament law to confronting modern idolatry in politics, this conversation challenges listeners to resist culture war mentalities, abandon proof-texting, and pursue a gospel-centered posture of humility, repentance, and love in the public square.

Check out our website at DisarmingLeviathan.com

About Tremper

Tremper Longman III is a distinguished Old Testament scholar and the author or co-author of over 30 books on biblical interpretation, wisdom literature, and theological engagement with culture. Formerly the Robert H. Gundry Professor of Biblical Studies at Westmont College, he has also taught at Westminster Theological Seminary and served as a visiting professor at institutions around the world, including in Korea and China. Known for his work on Ecclesiastes, Psalms, and the Song of Songs, Longman is a trusted voice on how Scripture informs not only personal faith but also our public and political lives. He is particularly passionate about helping Christians read the Bible with wisdom, rejecting simplistic proof-texting and advocating for an informed, humble engagement with today’s cultural and political challenges.

Special Episode! In early 2025, Pastor Gary Mason visited Phoenix for a conference. Caleb joined Lisa Jernigan and Vermon Pierre for a conversation with Gary about his experience pastoring during the Irish Troubles. This discussion weaves together global insights and local applications for fostering Jesus-centered reconciliation. Together, they reflect on how faith communities can become catalysts for healing in divided times.

About Gary:Rev. Dr. Gary Mason is a Methodist minister and founder of Rethinking Conflict, a Belfast-based initiative focused on reconciliation and peacebuilding. He played a pivotal pastoral role during the Irish Troubles, helping to bridge deep divisions between Protestant and Catholic communities in Northern Ireland. With decades of experience in political peacemaking, Gary now advises governments, faith leaders, and community organizations around the world. He is recognized globally for his work in conflict resolution and the role of faith in healing fractured societies.

About Lisa:Lisa Jernigan is the co-founder and executive director of Amplify Peace, a global movement dedicated to promoting peacemaking through education, immersive experiences, and community engagement. With decades of experience in church leadership and global missions, Lisa empowers individuals and churches to be transformative agents of peace and justice. Her work spans international conflict zones and domestic communities alike, with a focus on elevating marginalized voices. Lisa is also a sought-after speaker and podcast host committed to reimagining leadership through the lens of compassion and equity.

About Vermon:Pastor Vermon Pierre is the lead pastor of Roosevelt Community Church in downtown Phoenix, Arizona, where he is committed to gospel-centered ministry and multi-ethnic community transformation. A graduate of Princeton University and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, Vermon is also a thought leader in the areas of racial reconciliation and justice within the church. He is the author of Dearly Beloved and serves with The Gospel Coalition, contributing to national conversations on Christian ethics, leadership, and urban ministry. Through preaching, mentoring, and public engagement, Vermon fosters a church culture grounded in both biblical truth and restorative action.

In this episode, pastor and theologian David Fitch joins Caleb Campbell to explore the nature of power from a biblical perspective. Drawing from his book Reckoning with Power, Fitch outlines the distinction between worldly power—marked by coercion and control—and godly power—defined by presence, mutuality, and love. With insight drawn from scripture, history, and modern-day examples, he challenges the church to reject the allure of political dominance and instead embody the relational, redemptive power of Christ. The conversation also tackles the role of ideology, division in the church, and practical ways Christians can resist power grabs and live faithfully in today’s cultural climate.

About David:David Fitch is a theologian, pastor, and professor passionate about equipping the church to live faithfully in a fractured world. He holds the Lindner Chair of Evangelical Theology at Northern Seminary in Chicago and is the author of several influential books, including The Church of Us vs. Them, The End of Evangelicalism?, and Reckoning with Power. Rooted in the Anabaptist, Holiness, and Pentecostal traditions, Fitch brings a unique perspective that bridges academic theology and pastoral practice. His work often centers on power, ideology, and the church’s witness in a post-Christendom culture. He writes regularly at his Substack, “Fitch’s Provocations,” and is a sought-after speaker on faith, politics, and church renewal.

In this episode, Caleb Campbell sits down with Dr. Matthew Boedy to explore the roots, evolution, and rising influence of the Seven Mountains Mandate—a strategic framework behind modern Christian nationalism. Based on his new book, The Seven Mountains Mandate: Exposing the Dangerous Plan to Christianize America and Destroy Democracy, Boedy unpacks how the movement aims to control key spheres of cultural influence—including education, media, politics, and more—not through mass conversion, but through institutional takeover. Together, they examine the movement's theological roots, political momentum, and the real threat it poses to democratic pluralism, offering listeners a clear-eyed understanding of what’s at stake and how to respond with wisdom and courage.

About Matthew:Dr. Matthew Boedy is a professor of rhetoric and composition at the University of North Georgia and a leading voice on the intersection of religion, politics, and culture. Known for his sharp analysis of Christian nationalism and its evolving strategies, he is the author of The Seven Mountains Mandate: Exposing the Dangerous Plan to Christianize America and Destroy Democracy. Boedy's work draws from historical context, theological critique, and cultural commentary to illuminate the growing influence of dominionist ideologies in American public life. Through writing, speaking, and media engagement, he equips communities to recognize and thoughtfully resist extremist religious movements that threaten both faith and democracy.

In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, Caleb Campbell speaks with Holly Berkley Fletcher about her journey from missionary kid in Kenya to CIA analyst to outspoken critic of Christian nationalism. Holly reflects on her evangelical upbringing, her experiences with authoritarian regimes, and how the language of faith is often weaponized to serve political power. The conversation dives into her personal reckoning with evangelicalism, the ethical challenges of public service, and her fierce commitment to democracy, justice, and telling the truth—even when it's costly.

About Holly: Holly Berkley Fletcher is a writer, historian, and former CIA analyst who brings a unique voice to conversations about faith, politics, and public life. Raised as a missionary kid in Kenya and trained as an American historian, Holly spent nearly two decades working as an Africa analyst for the CIA. She now writes at the intersection of theology, democracy, and justice, contributing regularly to The Bulwark and her Substack, A Zebra Without Stripes. Her forthcoming book, The Missionary Kids, explores the personal and political legacy of evangelical missions and what it means to grow up in a faith tradition grappling with power.

Podcast Episode Description:In this episode of Disarming Leviathan, Caleb Campbell talks with Todd Wilson about his reflections on C.S. Lewis’s political thought. Todd shares how his long-standing interest in Lewis, combined with a background in politics and pastoral ministry, led him to explore Lewis’s views on democracy, hierarchy, and human nature. Together, they discuss how Lewis’s writing—rooted in a medieval worldview—can help Christians think more carefully about political power, equality, and the role of the church in a democratic society.

Todd Wilson Bio:Todd Wilson is a pastor, theologian, and reader of C.S. Lewis, with a particular interest in how Lewis understood politics, hierarchy, and human nature. A graduate of Wheaton College, Todd has spent years reading and reflecting on Lewis’s work, especially its political and social dimensions. He argues that Lewis’s medieval framework offers important insights into how Christians might engage with democracy and power today. Todd is the co-founder of the Center for Pastor Theologians and leads Integrated Leaders, a coaching and consulting organization focused on helping leaders grow in depth and integrity.

American boys and men are struggling. Journalist, pastor, and mom Angela Denker joins us to discuss her new book Disciples of White Jesus and the forces shaping the hearts, minds, and identities of young men in America today. From Christian nationalism to isolation and loneliness, Denker helps us trace both the radicalization and the redemption stories unfolding in churches, schools, and homes across the country.

About AngelaAngela Denker is a Lutheran pastor, journalist, and author of Disciples of White Jesus: The Radicalization of American Boyhood and Red State Christians: Understanding the Voters Who Elected Donald Trump. With a unique voice at the intersection of faith, politics, and culture, Angela brings the heart of a pastor and the curiosity of a journalist to some of the most urgent issues facing American Christianity today. Her writing has appeared in The Washington Post, Sports Illustrated, Sojourners, and The Atlantic, and she travels widely speaking to faith communities, educators, and leaders seeking to understand and heal the fractures in American life.

In this episode, New Testament scholar Nijay Gupta joins us for a thought-provoking conversation on how the early church encountered and interacted with political power. Drawing from historical context and biblical insight, Nijay helps us explore how the first Christians navigated empire, authority, and allegiance—and what their example might mean for the church today.

About Nijay

​Dr. Nijay K. Gupta is a distinguished New Testament scholar and professor at Northern Seminary, renowned for his expertise in Pauline theology, early Christian ethics, and the historical context of the New Testament. He holds a PhD from the University of Durham. He has authored several influential works, including Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church, which highlights the significant roles of women in early Christianity. Beyond his writing, Dr. Gupta co-hosts the "Slow Theology" podcast, contributes to Bible translation as a senior translator for the New Living Translation, and actively participates in scholarly communities such as the Society of Biblical Literature and the Institute for Biblical Research. His commitment to academic excellence and inclusivity continues to shape contemporary biblical scholarship and church practice.