August 04, 2025

Dissent from Moscow to Beijing

2 hours 10 minutes

To the Success of Our Hopeless Cause: The Many Lives of the Soviet Dissident Movement — the Pulitzer Prize-winning book by Professor Ben Nathans — is perhaps the sharpest, richest, and funniest account of the Soviet dissident movement ever written. Today, we’ll interview Nathans alongside the legendary Ian Johnson, whose recent book Sparks explores the Chinese dissident ecosystem.

We discuss…

The central enigma of the Soviet dissident movement — their boldness in the face of hopeless odds,

How cybernetics, Wittgenstein, and one absent-minded professor shaped the intellectual backbone of post-Stalinist dissent,

Why the Soviet Union was such fertile ground for dark humor, and why humor played a vital role for Soviet resistance movements,

How the architect of Stalin's show trials laid the groundwork for, ironically, a more professional legal system known as “socialist legality,”

Similarities and differences between post-Stalinist and post-Maoist systems in dealing with opposition,

Plus: Why Brezhnev read The Baltimore Sun, how onion-skin paper became a tool of rebellion, and why China’s leaders study the Soviet collapse more seriously than anyone else.

Today's episode is sponsored by Alaya Tea, cofounded by ChinaTalk listener Smita Satiani. Alaya Tea ships Indian teas straight from the source, and their products are 100% plastic-free. My favorite is their Assam black tea, which I've been using to make a fantastic milk tea. Go to ⁠alayatea.co⁠ and use the code CHINATALKTEA for free shipping.

Outro music: Владимир Высоцкий - Охота на волков (YouTube Link)

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By Jordan Schneider

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