In this episode, John welcomes Mark Vernon to discuss his two books, 'Dante's Divine Comedy: A Guide for the Spiritual Journey' and 'Awake: William Blake and the Imagination'. They explore the profound psychological, philosophical, and spiritual insights offered by Dante and Blake, touching upon topics like pilgrimage, the imaginal, and the role of the imagination in renewing perception. Mark shares his experiences and how these works resonate with contemporary cognitive science and spirituality. The conversation delves deep into understanding the connections between ancient wisdom and modern thought.

Mark Vernon is a writer, psychotherapist, and philosopher whose work explores the meeting point of spirituality, psychology, and philosophy. Based in London, his background in physics, theology, and psychotherapy shapes a multidisciplinary approach that bridges ancient wisdom traditions with contemporary understandings of the mind and meaning.

🔗 Learn more about Mark Vernon's work: markvernon.com

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Awake: William Blake and the Power of Imagination — by Mark Vernon

The Divine Comedy — by Dante Alighieri

A World in a Grain of Sand — William Blake's poem reference ("Auguries of Innocence")

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00:00 Welcome to the Lectern

01:00 Discussing Dante's Divine Comedy

02:30 Exploring William Blake's work

04:00 Mark Vernon's background and inspirations

07:00 The philosophy and impact of pilgrimage

10:00 Dante's pilgrimage and personal experiences

19:00 The nature of Dante's poem

24:30 Addressing controversial topics in Dante's work

31:00 The in-between and the imaginal

33:30 Triston's predictive processing

35:00 The brain's predictive nature

35:30 Deep learning and pattern recognition

36:00 Metacognition and future self

38:30 Blake's visionary experiences

39:00 The power of imagination

41:02 41:02 "We don't hear sound waves — we hear meaning. That's how strong the imaginal is."

56:00 Confident imagination and fierce critique

—

The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission.

Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships.

—

Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned in this Episode

Pilgrimage as a Path of Transformation

The Divine Comedy as a Map of the Soul

Knowledge Through Transformation, Not Proposition

The In-Between and the Imaginal Realm

Cleansing the Doors of Perception

The Renewal of the Senses

Theoria as Pilgrimage and Contemplation

Innocence, Openness, and Inner Vision

The Descent as a Hidden Ascent

William Desmond – Philosopher of the Between

Charles Taylor – A Secular Age

Henri Corbin – The Imaginal vs. The Imaginary

Ibn 'Arabi – Sufi Visionary of the Heart

Plato – Theoria and the Methu Aixis

C.G. Jung – Synchronicity and the Soul's Descent

Seeing God Again for the First Time – John Vervaeke

The Bhagavad Gita, Chapter 12 – The Faces of God

The Philosophical Silk Road and Pilgrimage as Practice

The Camino de Santiago and Shikoku Pilgrimage

The Covenant of Return – Integration and Homecoming

Threshold and Passage as Spiritual Acts

The Face of the World and the Call to Change Your Life

—

Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon

—

Thank you for watching!

To learn directly from Ethan Hsieh, John Vervaeke and Taylor Barratt, The Lectern is partnering with 5ToMidnight to offer a long form hybrid (online/in-person) practice program called TIAMAT-X. This program brings a full ecology of practices, endorsed by The Vervaeke Foundation to help you develop the capacity to…

perceive what matters

regulate in real time

and act with clarity

…through a cohesive method that weaves together mindful dialogue, embodiment, imaginal practice, and disciplined mindfulness.

Learn more about the program here:

https://www.5tomidnight.org/offerings/tiamat-x

https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x

In part three of the Lectern Dialogues series, John Vervaeke and Ethan Hsieh explore how virtue can be cultivated as a lived, embodied practice through an immersive ecology of education. The focus is on layered accounts of virtue — civic, purification, and illumination — and the role of ritual, altered states, and phenomenology in shaping meaning and sacredness. The conversation also addresses the risks of deification, authenticity loss, and cult dynamics, inviting a participatory, relational understanding of education oriented toward wisdom and agency.

Ethan Hsieh

Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner whose work bridges performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. As the creator of TIAMAT—a three-tiered developmental framework—he integrates insights from performance practice, cognitive science, and dialogical philosophy to help individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life. Through immersive training containers and collaborative inquiry, he guides participants in mapping their inner experience, expanding their relational capacities, and enacting what he calls "postures of presence." Ethan's approach emphasizes participatory learning, metacognitive mapping, and the cultivation of agency through shared practice. His work with the collective 5toMidnight seeks to foster deliberately developmental communities grounded in relational ontology, where philosophical understanding becomes lived transformation.

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00:00 Welcome to the Lectern

02:00 Exploring virtue and sacredness

04:00 Layers of virtue and practice

06:00 Rituals and altered states of consciousness

10:30 Phenomenology and the sacred

18:00 Transformative insight and lived experience

30:30 Being-in-the-world and interconnectedness

38:00 Framework rejection and deification concerns

40:30 Ego, deification, and demonization

41:00 Virtue and the ego's filtration function

44:00 Addressing cult dynamics

46:00 Identifying healthy traditions and practices

51:30 Realness, resonance, and authenticity

55:00 Logos and the Good

01:06:00 The value of embodied experience

—

Follow John Vervaeke

https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com

https://x.com/DrJohnVervaeke

https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke

https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

—

Thank you for watching!

Thank you for joining us LIVE for this special Lectern Launch Event with Nicole Baden and Dr. John Vervaeke.

Nicole Baden is a contemplative teacher, somatic practitioner, and long-time collaborator within the ecology-of-practices community. Her work focuses on integrating embodiment, meditative discipline, trauma-informed techniques, and transformative dialogue into cohesive pathways for personal and interpersonal growth. Nicole's teaching draws from a diverse lineage of contemplative traditions while remaining grounded in modern cognitive science, offering students practices that cultivate presence, resilience, and deeper relational intelligence.

She serves as a central facilitator in the emerging praxis-based ecosystem surrounding John's work, helping individuals bridge the gap between insight and lived transformation. Nicole has contributed to multiple training programs, workshops, and practice communities dedicated to cultivating wisdom, awakening meaning, and fostering healthier patterns of being in the world. Her approach emphasizes sincerity, stability, and the cultivation of embodied understanding.

Her new channel featuring Dharma talks, guided practices, and reflections: https://www.youtube.com/@TatsudoNicoleBaden

https://youtu.be/csh7WDsEuC4?si=4qD2gfBUw2ds4JWA

Dharma Academy — Nicole's Online School

Courses, teachings, and practice resources offered by Nicole: https://dharmaacademy.com/

Crestone Mountain Zen Center

Nicole Zen practice center in Colorado: https://www.dharmasangha.org/

Silk Road Seminars and Lectern Events are live gatherings where John weaves together his latest theoretical explorations, practical frameworks, and community initiatives with contributions from distinguished guests. These sessions stream live on YouTube and are followed by an exclusive Q&A where participants can ask questions directly to John and his guest. To be included on the Q&A guest list, you can join at the Gamma Tier (and above) on The Lectern: [https://lectern.teachable.com/p/lectern-lounge](https://lectern.teachable.com/p/lectern-lounge)

Free Student Access: Currently enrolled university students at all levels (up to doctoral studies) receive free access to the Q&A. To join, email your proof of student identity to: [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])

If you would like to support John's work purely out of goodwill, please consider joining the Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

John Vervaeke:

Website: https://johnvervaeke.com/

Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrJohnVervaeke

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke

Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

Learn more about the program here: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x

Led by Ethan Hsieh, John Vervaeke and Taylor Barratt, The Lectern is partnering with 5ToMidnight to offer a long form hybrid (online/in-person) practice program called TIAMAT-X.

This program brings a full ecology of practices, endorsed by The Vervaeke Foundation to help you develop the capacity to...

• perceive what matters

• regulate in real time

• and act with clarity

…through a cohesive method that weaves together mindful dialogue, embodiment, imaginal practice, and disciplined mindfulness.

Learn more about the program here: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x

Led by Ethan Hsieh, John Vervaeke and Taylor Barratt, The Lectern is partnering with 5ToMidnight to offer a long form hybrid (online/in-person) practice program called TIAMAT-X. This program brings a full ecology of practices, endorsed by The Vervaeke Foundation to help you develop the capacity to…

perceive what matters

regulate in real time

and act with clarity

…through a cohesive method that weaves together mindful dialogue, embodiment, imaginal practice, and disciplined mindfulness.

Learn more about the program here:

https://www.5tomidnight.org/offerings/tiamat-x

https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x

In part two of the Lectern Dialogues series, Ethan introduces two ex-participants, now facilitators-in-training, Rens and Ellie, as the discussion continues on how to bring virtuosity to virtue and transform philosophical understanding into a way of life. The focus is on Ethan's TIAMAT process, a three-tiered pedagogical approach integrating performance and cognitive science into living practices. The conversation dives into the importance of overcoming habitual thought patterns, unlocking agency, and the participatory nature of this transformative work. Through shared experiences and reflections, they contrast the program's approach to that of traditional therapy, emphasizing complexification, relational ontology, and distributed trust and empowerment. The episode illustrates the depth and communal aspects of Tier 2 of TIAMAT and its impact on personal growth and relationships.

Ethan Hsieh

Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner whose work bridges performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. As the creator of the TIAMAT process—a three-tiered developmental framework—he integrates insights from performance practice, cognitive science, and dialogical philosophy to help individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life. Through immersive training containers and collaborative inquiry, he guides participants in mapping their inner experience, expanding their relational capacities, and enacting what he calls "postures of presence." Ethan's approach emphasizes participatory learning, metacognitive mapping, and the cultivation of agency through shared practice. His work with the collective 5toMidnight seeks to foster deliberately developmental communities grounded in relational ontology, where philosophical understanding becomes lived transformation.

—

00:00 Welcome to the Lectern

01:00 Introducing Ethan's collaborators: Rens and Ellie

02:00 The TIAMAT process: Integrating virtuosity and virtue

03:00 Ethan's journey and collaborations

07:30 Rens's and Ellie's backgrounds and contributions

11:00 Meta maps and philosophical frameworks

12:04 "Meta maps are a kind of structure for your metacognition to be able to at least have touch points to map your experience."

15:00 The role of participation and feedback

26:00 Therapy vs. TIAMAT: a comparative discussion

40:00 Exploring ambiguity and complexity

42:30 Therapy and empowering agency

46:00 Deliberately developmental civilization

47:30 Shadow work and its misconceptions

52:00 Tier two dynamics and personal growth

01:06:00 Facilitating and participating in growth

—

Follow John Vervaeke

https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com

https://twitter.com/vervaeke_john

https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke

https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

—

Thank you for watching!

In this livestream, John relected on the past year, walk through important updates to the Lectern platform, preview upcoming courses, and share a major announcement:

Led by Ethan Hsieh, John Vervaeke and Taylor Barratt, The Lectern is partnering with 5ToMidnight to offer a long form hybrid (online/in-person) practice program called TIAMAT-X. This program brings a full ecology of practices, endorsed by The Vervaeke Foundation to help you develop the capacity to…

perceive what matters

regulate in real time

and act with clarity

…through a cohesive method that weaves together mindful dialogue, embodiment, imaginal practice, and disciplined mindfulness.

Learn more about the program here: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/courses/tiamat-x

This is John's second video essay, and it delivers a thorough critique of contemporary theories of meaning in life. With his student Arjun Arora assisting, John dismantles the standard psychological and folk categories — purpose, coherence, significance, and mattering — showing why they fall short of capturing the depth of what "meaning" actually is.

Arjun Arora is a cognitive science and physics scholar whose work bridges science, philosophy, and the search for meaning. As a student collaborator of Dr. John Vervaeke at the University of Toronto, Arora explores questions at the intersection of cognitive science, metaphysics, and existential psychology. His research focuses on the nature of meaning in life.

The Blind Spot

Meaning in Life: An Analytic Study

Charles Taylor

Michael Levin

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00:00 Welcome to the Lectern

01:16 "What makes a life worth living, even when we are faced by frustrations, failures, and our faults?"

01:30 Meet Arjun Arora 03:00 Critiquing the standard model of meaning in life 04:30 Purpose and orientation 06:00 Coherence and its challenges 08:00 Significance and mattering 11:30 Meaning in life vs. meaning of life 14:30 Worldviews and meta meaning systems 17:00 The role of affordance and adaptivity 22:00 The normativity of meaning in life 47:00 The developmental dimension of meaning in life 52:00 Exploring the connection between wisdom and meaning 52:30 Modal confusion and existential modes 53:00 The having mode vs. the being mode 53:30 The cost of modal confusion 55:00 Existential resilience and meaning in life 58:00 The normative aspect of meaning 01:04:00 The role of trust and belonging in meaning 01:08:00 The problem with the current meaning in life construct 01:12:30 The need for a new metaphysics 01:43:00 The importance of phenomenology in meaning 01:45:00 Concluding thoughts and future directions

—

The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. Become a part of our mission.

Join Awaken to Meaning to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships.

—

Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned in this Episode

Philosophical Silk Road

Intersection of Neo-Platonism and Judaism

Ibn Gabirol's philosophy of matter and form

Fountain of Life and the concept of God

Dialogical nature of reason

Jewish mysticism and its influence

Potentiality and actuality in Neo-Platonism

Receptivity and creativity in philosophy

Coupling of form and matter in existence

Desire and the divine essence

Logos as the "virtual engine"

Purpose of mankind and knowledge

Self-organization and complexity

The mystery of the divine and analogy of language

Ibn Gabirol (Avicebron)

Sarah Pessin – scholar, Theology of Desire

Zevi Slavin – host/interlocutor

Andalusian thinkers

Fountain of Life

Selected Poems of Ibn Gabirol

Theology of Desire

Books and literature on Ibn Gabirol generally

—

Follow John Vervaeke: Website | Twitter | YouTube | Patreon

—

Thank you for Listening!

Thank you for joining us for our monthly Silk Road Seminar!

Today's guest is @JonathanPageau Jonathan Pageau is a Canadian artist, writer, and public thinker exploring the patterns that unite art, symbolism, and meaning. As an icon carver and lecturer on symbolic thinking, Jonathan has become a prominent voice in the growing movement to recover traditional ways of seeing the world. His work brings together theology, myth, and modern culture to help audiences rediscover the sacred patterns underlying reality.

He is the host of The Symbolic World, a popular podcast and YouTube channel where he examines culture, art, and current events through the lens of symbolism and story. Jonathan's insights have made him a sought-after speaker at universities, conferences, and major podcasts, including appearances on Jordan Peterson's podcast and The Portal with Eric Weinstein.

Beyond his media work, Jonathan is a skilled icon carver in the Orthodox Christian tradition, producing liturgical and commissioned pieces that embody the very principles he teaches. He is also the editor of The Orthodox Arts Journal and co-founder of Symbolic World Press, which publishes works on theology, philosophy, and art that bridge ancient wisdom and contemporary experience.

Silk Road Seminars are a live event where John weaves together threads from his various theoretical conversations along with a distinguished guest. These hour-long conversations are live on Youtube followed by an exclusive Q&A, where you can ask questions directly to John and his guest. To be entered onto the guest list for these Q&As, you can sign up at the Gamma Tier (and above) on The Lectern at https://lectern.teachable.com/p/lectern-lounge Currently enrolled university students at all levels up to doctoral studies get free access to the Q&A. To gain access to Silk Road seminars, please email your proof of student identity to [email protected] to be added to the guest list and watch previous seminars as well!

If you would like to donate purely out of goodwill to support John's work, please consider joining our Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke.

The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. https://vervaekefoundation.org/

If you would like to learn and engage regularly in practices that are informed, developed and endorsed by John and his work, visit Awaken to Meaning's calendar to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. https://awakentomeaning.com/join-practice/

John Vervaeke:

https://johnvervaeke.com/

https://twitter.com/DrJohnVervaeke

https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke

https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

Something is coming: https://lectern.johnvervaeke.com/p/whatnext

What if mastery isn't about perfection—but about transformation?

In this episode of The Lectern, John Vervaeke is joined by Ethan Hsieh to explore how the cultivation of virtuosity—typically associated with the arts—can become central to philosophical and existential growth. Ethan introduces his Tiamat process, a three-tier developmental framework integrating performance training, cognitive science, and dialogical practice.

Together, they explore what it means to live a deliberately developmental life, moving beyond therapy into embodied transformation. Ethan draws from his background in acting, pedagogy, and philosophy to offer a new model of self-cultivation rooted in agency, feedback, metacognition, and trust.

Ethan Hsieh is a facilitator, educator, and philosophical practitioner whose work bridges performance, cognition, and transformative pedagogy. As the creator of the Tiamat process, he integrates insights from embodied practice, developmental psychology, and dialogical philosophy to help individuals cultivate virtuosity as a way of life. Ethan is also a co-founder of Five to Midnight, a community of practice that fosters relational, developmental growth through shared inquiry.

Learn more: http://5tomidnight.org

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00:00 – Opening and intentions

03:00 – Ethan's background in theater and philosophy

07:30 – What is Tiamat? Three-tiered developmental model

11:00 – Mapping metacognition through embodied practice

14:00 – Why "meta-maps" matter

17:00 – Habituation and interrupting automaticity

20:00 – Tiamat vs traditional therapy

24:00 – Participatory transformation and co-regulation

29:00 – Why agency must be distributed

1:00:00 – Where transformation lives: tier two dynamics

1:05:00 – Closing reflections

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Tiamat Process – Ethan's developmental model blending performance, cognition, and feedback

Meta Maps – Tools for mapping metacognition and lived experience

Postures of Presence – Ethan's term for enacted, relational awareness

Five to Midnight – Ethan's practice-based community: http://5tomidnight.org

Deliberately Developmental Civilization – Concept by Ken Wilber & Dustin Dene

Unified Theory of Knowledge (UTOK) – Metatheoretical cognitive framework: https://unifiedtheoryofknowledge.org

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Ideas, People, and Works Mentioned: Tiamat process Virtuosity and virtue Meta maps and metacognition Postures of presence Embodied transformation Relational ontology Distributed agency Participatory knowing Deliberately developmental civilization Complexification and growth Therapy vs. transformative practice Feedback and co-regulation Performance and philosophy Five to Midnight Unified Theory of Knowledge (UTOK) Ken Wilber Dustin Dene John Vervaeke

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Follow John Vervaeke: https://johnvervaeke.com https://twitter.com/DrJohnVervaeke https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

Thank you for joining us for our monthly Silk Road Seminar! Today's guest is Elizabeth Oldfield.

Elizabeth Oldfield is an experienced leader, writer, consultant and podcast host with a passion for intelligent public engagement on issues of reconciliation, identity, and healing our common life. She is currently working with a range of organisations and individuals as a coach and consultant focused on building clarity, courage and connection.

Elizabeth appears regularly in the media, including BBC One, Sky News, the World Service, and writing in Prospect Magazine, UnHerd and The Financial Times. She also hosts The Sacred, a podcast, events and visual content brand which creates space for a wide range of guests to reflect on their deepest values. For ten years she was Director of Theos, the UK's leading religion and society think tank, where she was repeatedly accredited by Best Companies as a 3* (world class) manager, reflecting her commitment to building and leading flourishing, high performing teams. She spent the first part of her career working at the BBC in television and radio, contributing to programmes including Beyond Belief and the Moral Maze, as well as Radio 3 and 4 documentaries. She is motivated by the dearth of real wisdom in public life, by a desire to increase empathy across our deep differences and the way spirituality can help individuals and societies flourish. She has a masters in Theology and the Arts and lives in an intentional community in south London.

She has spoken with John previously on UnHerd and you can watch the full conversation here: https://youtu.be/SGCVcMFCd7o?si=pTU2cCbcgR1Nj2xF

Silk Road Seminars are a live event where John weaves together threads from his various theoretical conversations along with a distinguished guest. These hour-long conversations are live on Youtube followed by an exclusive Q&A, where you can ask questions directly to John and his guest. To be entered onto the guest list for these Q&As, you can sign up at the Gamma Tier (and above) on The Lectern at https://lectern.teachable.com/p/lectern-lounge

Currently enrolled university students at all levels up to doctoral studies get free access to the Q&A. To gain access to Silk Road seminars, please email your proof of student identity to [email protected] to be added to the guest list and watch previous seminars as well!

If you would like to donate purely out of goodwill to support John's work, please consider joining our Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke

The Vervaeke Foundation is committed to advancing the scientific pursuit of wisdom and creating a significant impact on the world. https://vervaekefoundation.org/

If you would like to learn and engage regularly in practices that are informed, developed and endorsed by John and his work, visit Awaken to Meaning's calendar to explore practices that enhance your virtues and foster deeper connections with reality and relationships. https://awakentomeaning.com/join-practice/

John Vervaeke:

https://johnvervaeke.com/

https://twitter.com/vervaeke_john

https://www.youtube.com/@johnvervaeke

https://www.patreon.com/johnvervaeke