In this episode, Dr. Joel Givens chats with Dr. Aaron Smith about how subtle forms of surveillance, discipline, and normalization (among others) in Counselor Education programs sometimes disrupt students' abilities to develop an authentic counseling self and can recreate traumatic narratives for students that are survivors of racism and oppression. Dr. Givens uses Foucault's philosophies on punishment and discipline to inform their conversation and to explore what these kinds of practices can mean for students of marginalized identities in the classroom and in counseling training clinics. He provides some actionable ways that Counselor Educators can reduce the power hierarchy and prevent the abuse of psychological science that often contribute to oppression in counseling and other fields. They finish by discussing some resources listeners can check out to learn more about Foucault and postmodern narrative work in counseling.

For more on Joel, links from the conversation, and APA citation for this episode visit www.thethoughtfulcounselor.com

The Thoughtful Counselor is created in partnership with Palo Alto University's Division of Continuing & Professional Studies. Learn more at https://concept.paloaltou.edu