Feeling Good Podcast | TEAM-CBT - The New Mood Therapy

What can I do if I relapse?

Good Morning Dr. Burns,

I will make this email quick, as I'm sure you have several other emails to read through.

First off, thank you so much for your research and contributions to TEAM CBT! My mother introduced me to this form of therapy in 2022, and it has been a big help in overcoming my extremely painful perfectionism anxiety. Unfortunately, after graduating from university, I've begun relapsing once again. As such, I would like to ask a few things

Carlos:

(His remaining questions will be answered on Podcast 494.)

1. Is it harder to get out of a relapse than the first time?

I feel as if my relapse has been a lot trickier to get out of, despite the fact I have more tools and techniques.

David's response.

This depends entirely on whether you've done Relapse Prevention Training to prepare for relapses ahead of time. You can read all about it in the last chapter of my most recent book, Feeling Great. You can also learn about RPT on a number of podcasts, and even hear me doing it live with many individuals at the end of their personal work. Here are two examples randomly chosen among dozens I have published.

427: https://feelinggood.com/2024/12/16/426-ask-david-dreading-the-day-solving-mother-daughter-problems-romance-and-more/

389: https://feelinggood.com/2024/03/25/389-the-story-of-amy-part-2-of-2/

And you'll a great many more if you look. Just use the search function on my website and you'll find a wealth of podcasts on RPT.

Short answer: If you HAVE recovered and done RPT (takes 30 minutes) it will usually be much easier for you to smash your negative thought(s), using the same methods that helped you the first time.

If you HAVEN'T recovered and done RPT, it may be much more challenging.

Thanks for the important question, Carlos!

Download the incredible Feeling Great app today for FREE at FeelingGreat.com! This is my $99 GIFT for you.

- Dr. David Burns

Meet the Fantastic—and Controversial—Dr. David Healy Psychiatric Drug Companies-- What Are They NOT Telling Us?

Today, we are thrilled to interview the famed and courageous Dr. David Healy. I have admired his work for many years, but never imagined I'd have the chance to meet him and chat with him.

First things first. You may know Dr. David Healy for some of his highly controversial books, like "The Antidepressant Era," "Let Them Eat Prozac," and "Pharmageddon."

But who is he, really?

According to AI,

Dr. David Healy is a prominent Welsh psychiatrist, psychopharmacologist, and critic of the pharmaceutical industry known for his research on antidepressants, their links to suicide, and exposing industry practices like ghostwriting and disease-mongering, operating through initiatives like RxISK.org to promote drug safety. He has a long history of challenging Big Pharma, facing academic backlash (like losing a University of Toronto post) for his views, and serving as an expert witness in legal cases involving psychotropic drugs, advocating for greater transparency and patient safety.

Healy initially worked with pharmaceutical companies, gaining firsthand knowledge of how SSRIs were marketed despite their trial weaknesses, focusing on the oversimplified serotonin hypothesis.

He then became a vocal critic, highlighting issues like ghostwriting articles and manipulating academic opinion to sell drugs, leading to conflicts with industry-funded institutions.

He founded RxISK.org, a platform for patients to report adverse drug reactions, aiming to make medicines safer.

His strong stance (on research linking SSRI antidepressants to increased suicidal thoughts and urges) led to intense and corrosive controversy, including losing a professorship at the University of Toronto (though later settled as a visiting role) and harassment, noted here and here.

In recent years, he has acted as an expert witness in cases involving drug-related suicides and homicides, bringing issues to regulators.

In essence, Dr. David Healy is a significant, often controversial, figure dedicated to drug safety, academic integrity, and patient awareness in psychiatry, challenging established narratives and industry power.

Taking a deeper dive, AI has added this critically important information:

David Healy has discussed numerous examples of conflicts of interest that mainly involve the influence of the pharmaceutical industry on medical research, publication, and practice.

Key examples he has highlighted include:

• Ghostwriting of Articles: Pharmaceutical companies hire medical communication firms to draft research articles or reviews, and then get prominent academics or clinicians to put their names on the papers as the sole or primary authors, a practice known as ghostwriting. The named authors often have little to no involvement in the actual research or writing.
• Hiding or Misrepresenting Data: Drug companies have concealed unfavorable data or miscoded raw data on drug risks, such as the link between antidepressants and suicidal acts. This manipulation can make a drug appear safer or more effective than it actually is.
• Biased Clinical Trial Design: Healy notes instances where clinical trials are designed with "tricks," such as using inadequate or excessive doses of comparison medications to make the company's own drug look superior.
• Marketing-Driven Education: A large portion of continuing medical education (CME) classes for doctors are sponsored by industry. Healy argues this leads to a bias in the information presented to doctors, with an emphasis on the benefits of brand-name drugs rather than an objective assessment of all treatment options.
• Gifts and Payments to Physicians: Drug companies spend billions annually on marketing directed at doctors, including free samples, sales visits, and small non-educational gifts or lunches. Healy points out that while many doctors believe these gifts don't affect their own prescribing, studies show they influence prescribing patterns and create subtle biases.
• Industry Influence on Academia: Healy's own experience with a job offer being rescinded at the University of Toronto, which had received a large donation from a drug company (Eli Lilly), is a prominent case he uses to illustrate how industry funding can infringe upon academic freedom and stifle critical research.
• "Disease Mongering": Healy argues that the pharmaceutical industry often engages in "disease mongering," marketing conditions to the public and physicians to create a market for their products rather than simply addressing genuine medical needs.

So that hopefully gives you some idea of the scope of his work, and his vision of transparency and integrity in the reporting one the effectiveness and risks of psychotropic medications. In our conversation today, he emphasized the importance of listening to patients who describe side effects of medications, such as SSRIs, in described the efforts of Big Pharma to suppress such complaints, giving psychiatrists "talking points" to reassure and quiet concerned patients.

In general, a main focus of his career has been to challenge and confront the efforts of drug companies to suppress negative information about their products and troublesome and dangerous side effects. He said that one of the rationales the drug companies use is to say that disseminating that type of information will discourage many potential patients from using their products, and therefore miss out on the potential benefits of the medications. In fact, they have a name for this, "treatment hesitancy," and discourage open discussion of negative effects for this reason.

I asked Dr. Healy if he's experienced direct negative pushback from drug companies, and he gave a surprising answer—he said no, that the major pushback he's gotten has actually been from colleagues—psychiatrists who have bought the party line disseminated by the drug manufactures.

For example, when he gave his famous talk at the University of Toronto on the increase in suicidal urges associated with SSRI antidepressants, a famous psychopharmacologist, Dr. Charlie Nemeroff, got him fired.

Here's the story on Dr. Nemeroff, According to AI:

In the late 2000s, Nemeroff faced investigations and sanctions from Emory University for failing to disclose significant speaking and consulting fees from pharmaceutical companies like GlaxoSmithKline, raising questions about research integrity and conflicts of interest, notes The BMJ and The New York Times.

Although the antidepressant effects of SSRIs are controversial and hotly debated, their effects on the nervous system are not. Dr. Healy's research indicates that they have a suppression effect on the nervous system, which dulls the senses, and this can happen within 1 to 2 days.

One of the more troublesome of these effects is called "genital numbing," which affects 9 out of 10 people talking SSRIs. This can result in difficulties with sexual arousal and greatly delayed orgasm, and apparently these effects can persist long after drug discontinuation. He said that these sensory effects can develop quickly, within a day or two of starting the medications.

Even more chilling, he said that the problem can actually get worse when you discontinue the medication, and can sometimes persist for life.

In addition, quite a few individuals have "bad trips" on SSRIs, although a minority clearly have "good trips." He said the best thing to do for a bad trip is to take the patient off of the medication immediately—and NOT increase the dose. He confirmed my impression that a common error with all antidepressants is to increase the dose—which simply increases the side effects.

In addition to the genital numbing described above, he said the SSRIs cause "emotional numbing," which means a decreased capacity for joy as well as sorrow.

One of the main activities in David Healy's life has been listening to patients, rather than discounting their complaints when they describe negative effects of medications.

When asked about what alternatives to drugs he might recommend to someone struggling with depression, he said that sometimes, just doing nothing will be helpful, since most mood problems clear up spontaneously in 12 to 14 weeks. He said that most are simply human problems, not "mental disorders," but real-life problems, like relationship conflicts or social issues.

Although we did not discuss it extensively on the show, I would point out that skillful, drug-free therapy with TEAM CBT can sometimes help as well, and that recent research has confirmed rapid often dramatic mood improvements with individuals using the Feeling Great app, which has been entirely free to anyone since the summer of 2025.

Finally, we do not advise anyone to discontinue or modify the dosages of any medications you have been prescribed without consultation with your doctor. The information in the Feeling Good podcast is of a strictly educational nature, and is not intended as treatment or medical advice.

We thank you for listening to today's shocking but incredibly important dialogue with one of the pioneers and champions of greater ethical integrity and transparency in the psychiatric profession. It is sad, indeed, that we don't have more visionary critical thinkers like Dr. David Healy!

David (H), Rhonda, and David (B)

Ask David, #491, featuring our beloved Dr. Matthew May. Can Introverts be helped? How can we enhance our happiness? What's the best movie to watch if your father rejected you? How can I identify my feelings?

The answers to the first two questions are brief and were written prior to the show. Listen to the podcast for a more in-depth discussion of each question.

Today's Questions

1. Anonymous asks: Can an introvert become more extroverted? Or are these personality traits "fixed" and unchanging?
2. Seve asks: I know that TEAM can be super helpful for negative thoughts and feelings, but what are the best tools to enhance happiness and become the person we want to be?
3. I have a patient whose father rejected her when she was young. What would be a good movie that I could recommend for her?
4. Anonymous asks: I don't know how to identify my feelings. Can you help?

Today's Answers

Question #1

Anonymous asks: Can an introvert become more extroverted? Or are these personality traits "fixed" and unchanging?

Dear Dr. Burns,

I hope this message finds you well.

I would like to ask you a question regarding personality traits. Some articles suggest that introversion and extraversion are relatively stable characteristics—meaning that an introverted person cannot truly become more extroverted, and vice versa (or at least not to a great extent). They also propose that introverts tend to lose energy in social situations and recharge when alone, whereas extroverts gain energy from social interaction.

I'm very curious to know your thoughts on this topic. Do you believe an introverted person can become more extroverted? And in your view, is an introvert's need for solitude more of a true "need" or a "want"?

Thank you very much for your time and for the inspiration your work has provided to so many of us.

Warm regards,

Anonymous

David's reply

If you like, I can make this an Ask David question for an upcoming podcast! It's a cool question and raises many questions: Do "personalities" even "exist?" Is this like the question, "Do we have a self?"

It also focuses on the issue of whether we can change and grow, or whether there is some invisible barrier beyond which we can grow any further, due to some inherent "limit" due to our "personality type."

Best, david

Question #2

Dr. Dear David:

I know first-hand how helpful TEAM CBT can be to address negative thoughts and emotions but our path to a happier life and to the person we want to be never really ends. Are there any other tools that Dr. David may have come across and can suggest for someone's growth?

Thank you,

Steve

David's Answer

Great question, and I'll give you a (hopefully) great answer on the podcast! But here's the quickie answer. Focus on one specific moment when you'd like to be feeling happier, or when you need help on become the person you want to be, and then use a Daily Mood Log, Habit / Addiction Log (HAL), or Relationship Journal, depending on what's needed.

This is the exact same fractal concept we use in all of TEAM CBT!

Warmly, david

Question #3

Hi podcast crew: I have a patient whose father rejected her when she was young. What would be a really good movie to recommend do her?

David's Answer

Sadly, I lost my notes from this podcast, but in general David and Matt found this question somewhat offensive, as it suggests you can chase a problem (father rejected me) with a method, in this case recommending a good movie.

We, instead, would recommend TEAM CBT, which is real therapy, and not gimmicks. Movies can be rewarding, but that's not the same as effective therapy!

Rhonda asked David and Matt what was wrong with recommending a movie in the same way we recommend books for clients to read. Have a listen to hear their response.

Question #4

Anonymous asks: I don't know how to identify my feelings. Can you help?

David's Answer

Rhonda said one of her clients could not identify their feelings, unless they have the Feelings Chart in front of them. David thought that anyone could identify their feelings and explained.

One simple way is to identify a specific moment when you were upset and wanting help. Think about what was going on, who wee you with, where were you, etc.

Then review the Feeling Words charts, which I will link to, to see how many, and which ones, resonate with how you were feeling at that time, or how you may still be feeling.

Feeling Words Chart with Five Secrets, v 2

Another way is to draw a Stick Figure of yourself, and put a bubble above its head. Then imagine the Stick Figure is upset and put the Stick Figure's negative thoughts and feelings in the bubble. They don't have to be your feelings and thoughts, just make some up.

Do it now—on paper! DON'T just think about it. That never works!

Have you done it yet? No? That's what I suspected.

If you ever DO want the answer to your question, so the stick figure on paper and then write me back. Thanks!

Finally, you can listen to the podcast on "I Feel" Statements, and spend one week telling five people a day how you feel, using words from the Feeling Words Chart. For example, when checking groceries you could tell the clerk, "I'm feeling happy because we have such beautiful weather today." Or, "I'm feeling really frustrated with politics this morning!" Or whatever.

Thanks for listening today!

Matt, Rhonda, and David

Sexting, Bullying, and Social Media-- A Compassionate, Practical Guide for Parents of Teens

Today, we welcome back one of our favorite guests, Taylor Chesney, director of the Feeling Good Institute in New York City. Taylor specializes in TEAM-CBT with children and adolescents and brings a rare combination of clinical expertise and real-life wisdom as the mother of four.

Parents everywhere are worried about social media, sexting, porn, bullying, and the fear that their kids are doing "who knows what" behind closed doors. In this episode, Taylor offers a refreshing and deeply practical message: the solution isn't better apps, stricter rules, or surveillance—it's connection.

Why Blaming Technology Misses the Point

Teen brains are still developing. They're impulsive, thrill-seeking, and wired for belonging and validation. Give teens instant access to peers and social media, and mistakes are inevitable.

Taylor emphasizes that technology itself isn't good or bad—it amplifies what's already happening in a teen's emotional world. The real question isn't how to eliminate technology, but how parents can guide kids in using it safely and thoughtfully.

The Real Protective Factor: Communication

Parents often ask, "What app should I install?" or "How do I stop this?" Taylor suggests these questions lead to dead ends.

What truly protects teens is a relationship where they feel:

• understood rather than judged
• supported rather than interrogated
• safe coming to parents after a mistake

As Taylor explains, for most teens it's not if they'll face a difficult online situation—it's when. The goal is to make sure they come to you when it happens.

How to Talk So Teens Will Open Up

Using the Five Secrets of Effective Communication, especially the Disarming Technique, parents can shift from policing to coaching.

Instead of:

• "Why were you on your phone?" Try:
• "Help me understand what was going on for you."

This approach reduces secrecy and increases trust.

Porn, Sexting, and Shame

Discovering porn or sexting can trigger panic and anger in parents—but shaming almost always backfires.

Taylor suggests responding with curiosity and empathy:

• "What was that like for you?"
• "What do you understand about the difference between porn and real intimacy?"

Sexting often begins innocently—seeking connection, validation, or closeness—but once an image is sent, control is lost. Open conversations help teens think ahead without feeling judged or controlled.

Parents can also teach teens simple, self-respecting responses like:

"I care about you, but I don't need to send that to prove it."

Bullying and Online Drama

Online bullying mirrors real-life dynamics—but faster, more public, and more permanent.

Taylor shares concrete skills teens can use:

• Pause before responding
• Don't engage when emotions are high
• Exit or mute toxic chats
• Involve an adult early

Helpful phrases teens can practice include:

• "This chat is getting mean—I'm stepping out."
• "I'm not comfortable with this."
• "Let's take a break."

The Big Takeaway

Mistakes—by teens and parents—are inevitable. The real danger isn't errors; it's secrecy.

When kids know they can come to their parents without fear of shame or punishment, they make better decisions and recover more quickly when things go wrong.

As Taylor puts it: "The kids with the best relationships with their parents make the best decisions."

Thanks for listening, and heartfelt thanks to Taylor for this wise, compassionate, and deeply reassuring conversation.

— David, Rhonda, and Taylor

Download the amazing Feeling Great app today for FREE at FeelingGreat.com! This is my $99 GIFT for you.

– Dr. David Burns

Meet Richard Lam-- Master TEAM CBT Teacher and Therapist!

Today we chat with Richard Lam. Richard is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in private practice in Mountain View, California. He is a graduate of Palo Alto University. He currently provides short-term therapy for anxiety, OCD, habits/addictions, depression, and relationship concerns using Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. Richard also trains other therapists in David Burn's model of CBT called TEAM-CBT Therapy. He is a certified Level 5 Master Therapist and Trainer in TEAM-CBT Therapy.

And today, Richard has gifts for you! They are fantastic! See below!

I began by asking Richard how he got interested in teaching. When he was first learning, he was tutored by Dr. Angela Krumm, an advanced TEAM CBT practitioner and one of the three founders of the Feeling Good Institute. He was loving the training, but one day she said, "That's all I can teach you. Now you have to start teaching!"

And that started the wagon rolling down the hill. Richard is particularly interested in developing free self-help tools for patients, but also runs a special training class for TEAM CBT therapists who themselves want to become trainers. It meets in-person at the FGI office on Mondays from 12 to 2 PM. If interested, contact Richard (contact information is at bottom of show notes.)

Richard is one of our most articulate TEAM CBT teachers, and is renown for some of his live demonstrations of specific techniques, like Forced Empathy. He has created a series of multi-page interactive teaching guides for a variety of techniques, so you can learn exactly how to do the Double Standard Technique, or the Externalization of Voices in a simple, clear, step-ty-step manner. Here are links to several examples. Check them out and feel free to share them with your patients if you are a TEAM therapist.

These links are all kick ass! Check them out and do the exercises. You'll be glad you did!

• Link to Double Standard Technique
• Link to Externalization of Voices
• Link to Externalization of Resistance
• Link to I Feel Statements, Part 1
• Link to I Feel Statements, Part 2
• Link to Feared Fantasy
• Link to Forced Empathy
• Link to Forced Empathy Handout
• Link to Future Projection, for Habits
• Link to Paradoxical Ultimatum

Richard tells us that mental health works a lot like physical health. When we don't regularly care for our bodies, things start to deteriorate and the same is true for our minds. These tools give you a way to keep nurturing your mental health so you can maintain a strong, healthy mind.

Richard and I also discussed Acceptance--one of the most difficult concepts for patients and therapists alike to "get." I was delighted to learn he has a five-point plan to help people grasp this concept.

Richard's Five Steps to Acceptance

1. The Win-Win Principle: How can I see this loss as a win?

In high school, Richard had a patient whose heart was set on making the varsity basketball team, and was heartbroken when he only made the junior varsity team. But then he got to thinking that it would be fun to be the start on the JV team because his best friend is also going to be in JV. He relaxed and started to enjoy his practices with the team.

And

He was promptly promoted to the varsity team!

2. Remember the butterfly effect!

Richard described getting angry and frustrated when he was late for an important appointment, and the car in front of him was moving slowly and caused a delay at a red light. His first impulse was to get angry and insist it SHOULDN'T have happened. But then, in reflection, he thought: "Wait a minute. This delay will change the entire trajectory of the rest of my life. And who knows, this could have save my life from some future tragedy if the trajectory of my life had been on time."

3, Growth mindset

I have always thought of this important idea in simple terms. There is really no such "thing," from a Buddhist perspective, as "success" or "failure." These are just experiences. But often things do not turn out as one hoped. Instead of caving in, giving up, or feeling depressed or frustrated, although those are perfectly reasonable human experiences, you can accept your failure and view it as an opportunity for growth and learning. Our 9 month old grandson has reminded me that when we are learning to walk, we "fail" constantly, falling over, etc. But these are steps in learning that eventually culminates in the ability to walk--which is a miracle!

4. The spiritual view

Acceptance can be thought of as letting go of judgement. Richard treated a woman who was angry at God because she could not have children, and she had always dreamed of having a big family. But from a medical perspective, her anger and constant agitation were actually the main reason she couldn't get pregnant. Shen she began working on reducing her anger using TEAM CBT, she was able to relax, and accept her fate with greater in peace.

And then she suddenly got pregnant!

I, David, have seen this on many occasions. Check out Podcast #7f9, one of our most popular podcasts ever, with Daisy: "What is the Secret of a Meaningful Life?" Or Podcasts 268 - 269, featuring live work with our beloved Dr. Carly Zankman. Or #349: "What if my family rejects me?" All of these podcasts were amazing, and resulted in rapid pregnancies!

5. Empathy vs anger

Richard described getting VERY angry when someone broke into his car and stole a bunch of stuff, but then asked himself why they did it. He realized that they were probably struggling and desperate for money--for drugs, for food, for family. Understanding someone's story can help lower the anger that you feel.

Richard, Rhonda, and David

Let's face it. We ALL procrastinate. Attempts to "help" nearly always backfire.

Dr. David Burns gets it. Procrastinators don't want help — they want something that actually works. In his upcoming free webinar on February 25, Dr. Burns introduces his paradoxical approach and ten powerful TEAM CBT tools that deliver results.

Sign up now at FeelingGoodWebinar.com.

Everyone is welcome! Therapists can purchase two CE credits if they attend the live event.

See you there!

(featured photo shows David, his wife Yvonne, and son, Joey, when young)

Meet the Incredible Dr. David Antonuccio, Part 2 of 2 Shrink, Songwriter, and Hero

Today we continue our conversation with my dear friend and esteemed colleague, Dr. David Antonuccio, a true scholar, clinician, researcher, musician, and champion of scientific transparency.

The Nicotine Patch Study

David revisited his landmark research on the nicotine patch, a costly trial involving roughly 600 participants who were randomly assigned to receive either a real nicotine patch or a sham patch. The goals were to assess safety and efficacy.

The safety data looked reassuring. However, the efficacy findings were unexpected: the placebo patch worked just as well as the active nicotine patch in reducing smoking. The sponsoring company published the safety data but refused to publish—and refused David access to—the efficacy findings, which showed no advantage for the nicotine patch. You can check the link to the NEJM article here.

David writes: "Notice the 48 week follow-up data were excluded in this paper despite the fact that they were available. That really annoyed me. I also now believe that the original version of the paper was ghostwritten and ghost analyzed by the industry folks.in other words. I'm not sure that the authors ever had access to the "raw" data before they were analyzed."

This was important because there was a decrease in smoking DURING the study among those wearing the patch, and getting their "fix" of nicotine that way. . . but what happened AFTER the study?

David writes: "Here is the link to the follow up paper that emphasized efficacy and included the 48 week follow-up data."

Notice that this paper was not published until three years later, when the Nicotine Patch had already been heavily advertised and sold on the market. This early experience in his career revealed the tension between marketing interests which focus on sales, and scientific interests which focus on truth and transparency—a daunting and frustrating pattern that would emerge again and again in his career.

Expert Testimony in a Tragic Criminal Case

David then described expert testimony he provided in a deeply troubling legal case. A 72-year-old woman, happily married for 50 years and a respected kindergarten teacher, had recently been prescribed Paxil, along with Ambien and Ativan.

She abruptly, and without memory, woke up in the middle of the night and stabbed her husband 200 times and was subsequently arrested for homicide.

There was no jury trial; instead, a plea bargain was used to determine sentencing. Dr. David Antonuccio was called as an expert witness in her defense. He described Dr. David Healy's research documenting a significant increase in both suicidal and violent urges among some patients taking SSRIs, especially Paxil. He argued that this woman's bizarre behavior was consistent with a drug-induced dissociative or fugue state.

Based in part on David's testimony, the charge was reduced to manslaughter, and the judge sentenced her to time served, allowing her to return home to her children.

For more on this topic:

• David Healy's Research on SSRIs and Homicidal Urge
• SSRIs Called on Carpet Over Violence Claims

Black Box Warnings and Patient Rights

David also emphasized the urgent need to revise Black Box warnings to reflect the full range of possible toxic or dissociative effects of psychiatric medications—not just suicidality. He has long advocated for a Patient Bill of Rights to ensure scientific transparency and informed consent.

A Surprising Conversation with Dr. John Nash

David shared a fascinating personal story about calling Dr. John Nash, whose life inspired the award-winning film A Beautiful Mind. In the movie, Nash's recovery from schizophrenia is portrayed as medication-dependent. However, Nash told David directly that this was not true—the medication narrative was added to the script, possibly out of concern that portraying his recovery without meds might discourage viewers from taking prescribed medications.

Nash said: "What saved me was the support of family and friends."

Music, Truth, and "Buzz"

David is also a talented songwriter. One of his songs, "Buzz," addresses the emotional and ethical issues surrounding electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). The inspiration came from a man in the Midwest who was legally ordered to undergo ECT against his will. A widespread public outcry ultimately convinced the judge to rescind the order.

Forgiveness and "In the Air Tonight"

One of David's favorite songs is Phil Collins' "In the Air Tonight," which he sees as a deeply spiritual musical meditation on forgiveness—a theme David considers one of the most powerful psychological forces we possess. David explains that the Phil Collin's song is about forgiveness, but more indirectly and specifically about the songwriter's inability to forgive.

And yes—David sang it live for us on the podcast!

You might be interested in this chapter that David coauthored on

the science of forgiveness

Thank you for joining us today. And heartfelt thanks to you, Dr. David Antonuccio, for your gifts of enlightened skepticism, ethical courage, incisive scientific thinking, and soulful musical talent.

David, Rhonda, and David

Stories from a Giant and Gadfly Discover the Protest Music of RainFall!-- like "The Antidepressant Blues!"

Today, we are delighted to spend some time with a dear friend and highly esteemed colleague, Dr. David Antonuccio. David is a retired Clinical Psychologist and Professor Emeritus in the Dept. of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences at the University of Nevada, Reno, School of Medicine.

In addition to his academic work, David had his own clinical practice for 40 years. He has published over 100 academic articles and multiple books, primarily on the treatment of depression, anxiety, or smoking cessation. Since his retirement from practice in 2020, he has been making music as part of a duo called RainFall, with his musical partner Michael Pierce. Their music can be found on Spotify, Apple music, and Soundcloud, among other streaming services.

I first became familiar with David when a colleague recommended his article entitled: "Psychotherapy versus medication for depression: challenging the conventional wisdom with data," which was published in Professional Psychology: Research and Practice way back in 1995. The article blew my socks off.

In the first place, he had come to the many of the same conclusions I had come to, that antidepressants had few "real" effects above and beyond their placebo effects. However, he also had incredible insights into some of the problems and loopholes with drug company research studies on antidepressants, so I tried to get as many colleagues and students as possible to read that article.

Here is the article link

Although I had never met David, he became my hero. One day, while I was giving one of my two-day CBT workshops in Nevada, I was singing his praises and urging participants to read that classic article, but, unexpectedly, some people started chuckling.

At a break, I asked someone why people had been laughing. They said, "Didn't you know that David Antonuccio is here attending this workshop? He was out visiting the bathroom when you were singing his praises, so he didn't hear you!"

And that's how we met!

I couldn't believe my good fortune in meeting this brilliant and humble man in person. And to my good fortune, we became good friends right off the bat and eventually did a lot of fun professional work together, like our exciting conference challenging the chemical imbalance theory of depression which we called the Rumble in Reno.

I was also proud to be included as a co-author in a popular article with David and William Danton reviewing the brilliant work of Irving Kirsch. Kirsch had re-analyzed all the data on antidepressants in the FDA archives and concluded that the chemicals called "antidepressants" had few, if any, clinically significant effects above and beyond their placebo effects. In that paper, we also emphasized the ongoing power struggle between the needs of science and the needs of marketing. Science is devoted to discovering and reporting the truth, based on research, regardless of where it leads, while marketing, sadly, is ultimately loyal to the bottom line, even if deception is required.

Here is the link to our article:

And here is the full reference:

Antonuccio, D. O., Burns, D., & Danton, W. G. (2002). Antidepressants: A Triumph of Marketing over Science? Prevention and Treatment, 5, Article 25. Web link: http://journals.apa.org/prevention/volume5/toc-jul15-02.htm

I was sad when David retired from his clinical, teaching, and research career a number of years ago in order to spend more time on creating and recording music because, a passion he'd put on the shelf during the most active years of his career. I felt we'd lost an important and courageous leader in the behavioral sciences, and felt an emptiness, like an important pioneer was suddenly missing.

The following link provides a highly readable brief overview of

David's career focus and interests.

I was thrilled to learn just recently that David has partly resumed his role as gadfly of the behavioral sciences, rejoining the fight for science, ethics and for truth, regardless of where that leads or whose feathers are ruffled.

And now, we sit down together to reminisce about his personal life and experiences with many of the greats in our field, like Dr. David Healey, Irving Kirsch, and others who have also stood up for the truth, based on their research, in spite of intense opposition from the establishment.

And, today David also brings us his music, with his colleague, Michael Pierce, RainFall.

Some of his music has psychiatric / psychological themes, like his "Antidepressant Blues,"

Some of David's music has humanistic and political themes. He said:

Here's a song we just released yesterday that i will assume would not be relevant to the podcast. It is called Final Embrace and was inspired by a heart-breaking international wire photo of a Salvadoran immigrant father hugging his daughter, both deceased, in the rio grande in 2019.

Here's the link to the original news story.

David's two-man group, RainFall, wrote and recorded the original acoustic version of this song in 2020. He explains:

We decided to record a more dynamic updated version of the song with some electric guitar chords, electric bass, and drums. We are calling it "Final Embrace Electric". The story is still heart-breaking, and it still makes me cry to sing it.

Here is a link to the new version of the song,

And here are the heart-breaking lyrics:

Final Embrace Electric (For Oscar and Valeria)

By RainFall (David Antonuccio and Michael Pierce)

I'm sorry I couldn't help you

I'm sorry you lost your life

You took a deadly risk

I'm sorry for your wife

What were you supposed to do?

Stay home and watch your family die?

Or take a chance at freedom

Reach for the sky

Some say you should have known better

They say that you are a criminal

But they don't know your fear, your pain, your hunger

For them it's the principle

Some say we were here first

It's not our problem

Despite your dire thirst

We're full, no more asylum

Let's ask them what they would do

If their family were faced with danger

If they're honest, they'd take the chance

Hope for kindness from a stranger

You tried to get in the front door

But it was slammed closed

So you swam the deadly current

Despite the perilous flow

You never lost your grip

Though the river was not crossable

Only another parent can know

How that is even possible

Everyone can tell you loved your daughter

Even in that place

You never let her go

It was your final embrace

I'm sorry I couldn't help you

I'm sorry you lost your life

You took a deadly risk

I'm so sorry for your wife

Everyone can tell you loved your daughter

Even in that place

You never let her go

It was your final embrace

Your final embrace

It was your final embrace

It was your final embrace

Thank you for joining us today. Stayed tuned for Part 2 of the David Antonuccio interview next week!

David, Rhonda, and David