Find Your Dream Job: Insider Tips for Finding Work, Advancing your Career, and Loving Your Job

Everybody knows that changing jobs regularly is the new normal. The days of working for just one or two employers through your adult life are long gone.

But what about switching not just jobs, but careers? Most of us will be in the workplace for four decades or more, so it’s a choice each of us will face. In fact, we may have three or four distinct careers over the course of our working lives.

This week on Find Your Dream Job, we’re talking about the challenges and benefits of changing your career. Our guest expert is Michelle Hynes a career coach who specializes in helping people in the midst of work transitions. Michelle has, herself, gone through several career changes. She shares her insights on how to reinvent yourself, not just to improve your marketability, but also to increase your happiness.

In this 30-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Michelle Hynes (@mhynesPDX | LinkedIn)Principal, Michelle Hynes ConsultingPortland, Ore.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

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Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

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Did you make a New Year’s resolution to do something different in your career? The list of changes you seek in the next 12 months could include a raise, a promotion, or a new job. Or maybe you want to improve your professional skills by stepping up your networking, increasing your industry knowledge, or adopting new work habits.  

Whatever your goal, you’re not alone. More than 40% of Americans make New Year’s resolutions, according to some estimates. (Alas, research suggests only about 8% of people stick to those resolutions.)

So what are you doing to ensure your professional resolutions turn into a reality?

This week on Find Your Dream Job, Mac talks with Victoria Crispo, career development expert and manager of career content at Idealist. Victoria shares her advice on how to set and attain achievable career goals so that 2016 is a year you move closer to your dream job.

In this 33-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Victoria Crispo (@_AskVictoria | LinkedIn)Manager of Career ContentIdealistNew York, N.Y.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:  

This is "Find your Dream Job," the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of "Mac's List." Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and by our book, "Land your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." To learn more about the book and the updated edition that we're publishing in February, on February 1st, actually, visit MacsList.org/ebook.

A new year means a new start, and as 2016 beings, you're probably making resolutions to something different in your career. The list of changes you want to see in the next 12 months may include a raise, a promotion, and a new job, or maybe you want to improve your professional skills by stepping up your networking, increasing your industry knowledge, or adopting new work habits. Whatever your goal, you're not alone. More than 40% of Americans make New Years resolutions, according to some estimates.

In spite of those good intentions, however, most of us don't have much success in keeping our promises to ourselves. Researchers at the University of Scranton found that only 8% of Americans achieve their goals. This week on "Find your Dream Job," we're talking about resolutions, why most of them fail, and why those that stick work. We're recording this in January, but the issues that we're talking about and the information we'll share with you today you can use in any month.

Our guest expert this week is Victoria Crispo, who will tell us what people who are successful at keeping their resolutions do differently. Cecilia Bianco, our community manager, has advice about what to do if you're thinking about this is the year that you move to a new town. Ben Forstag, our managing director, has 2 blog posts you can use to make difficult career decisions.

All right, Cecilia, Ben, let's talk about your New Years resolutions before we move onto our guest expert and our resources this week. What's on your list?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Well, for me, I try to make my resolutions based on something I learned in the previous year. Last year, I learned that if I don't keep up with having all my work organized, then I kind of start to fall apart. In the coming year, I want to make a huge effort to stay organized throughout the entire year.

Ben Forstag:    

For me, I want to be better about getting out there networking on a regular basis, going to industry events, and just social mixers here in town, just so I can meet other professionals in Portland and in other areas. In the past, I've always done that sporadically, and my goal now is to set a regular schedule, a modest schedule, maybe once or twice a month, but have a schedule and go do that consistently.

Mac Prichard:   

Good. For me, I've found in the past that I have the most success when I just focus on just one or two things, so one of my resolutions last year was to publish the Mac's List book. We brought that out as a PDF this year. The 3 of us have talked about the new e-course that we hope to introduce in the second half of the year, and that's on my to-do list.

I'm curious, before we move on, are there tips that you have for our listeners about once you make those resolutions, the things you do that you find make it more likely that they'll happen?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I find that if I set aside time on my calendar to actually meet that goal, then I'll end up doing it. Setting a weekly reminder on Fridays, or something like that, "It's time to get organized," will keep me on track.

Mac Prichard:   

I'm also impressed, Cecilia, we share our calendars as a team, when I see that you blocked out time on your calendar to do certain tasks. That prevents the rest of us from interrupting you by scheduling meetings or appointments.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, it helps.

Ben Forstag:   

I think for me it's about setting realizable goals for yourself. There's always this inclination, when you set a resolution, to say, like, "I'm going to go from not running ever to running a marathon this year." That's a nice audacious goal, but sometimes it's just too much. It's really hard to reach that goal. The moment you find that you're not on the right step in the progress, you just give up. I would say for me, my goal is not to go to a networking each week. It's once a month, right. It's a modest goal. I can do it. It's achievable, and if I can do that for the next 6 months, then maybe I can adjust my plan and say, "It will be twice a month, now, or 3 times a month, or once every week." Just setting realistic goals that you know you can hit, but that are going to create a real effective change in your life.

Mac Prichard:   

Keep it realistic. Put it on your calendar, and those are ways you can make it happen. Speaking of resources, let's turn to Ben, who is out there all the time looking for tools you can use. What have you found for us this week, Ben?

Ben Forstag:  

This week, we're talking about career resolutions. Resolutions, as you know, often involve some kind of change, taking a new job position, going back to school, confronting your professional challenges, and things like that. Change can be scary, right? Especially if we're talking about taking a step into the unknown, something that you're unfamiliar with, taking that new job, where it's a big question mark of what it's really going to be like. This week, I'm sharing 2 blog posts that I've found that can help you manage your fears and make the right career decisions, the right career decisions for yourself, that is. The first post is from the Life Hack blog, and it's titled, "10 Questions You Should Ask When Facing a Tough Career Decision." The author provides some good, high-level questions you should think about whenever your career is at a fork in the road. I'm going to kind of cover this broadly, here. It's a post I'd suggest you go through and read because the author does go into each of these questions in detail. In general, his questions are:

Simply, these aren't clear yes-no questions. This is not the cheat sheet for making decisions in your life. These are really more open prompts. They get you thinking about the full impact, cost, and benefits of a prospective change. I love how each question frames the decision-making process around your own needs as a professional. I'd really suggest you check that out. Again, it's, "10 Question You Should Ask When Facing a Tough Career Decision," and it's in the Life Hack blog. I'll have the URL to that in the show notes.

Mac Prichard:   

That's a great list. One thought that occurred to me as you were talking, Ben, is a question I saw posed on a different blog, which is: When you think about how you want to be known professionally, whether it's as a manager, speaker, or a writer, ask yourself: How are you spending your time doing those things, and does your calendar reflect that? If it doesn't, then something's out of whack.

Ben Forstag:

Yeah. I think these questions are kind of the micro way of getting at that general, big question in there because I think sometimes that's a little bit too big of a thing to figure out or to put into your mind. This really gets at that. I particularly like the question about, "Does it fit with your brand?" That's just a fancy way of saying, "Does this fit with who you see yourself as and who you want to be as a professional?" Sometimes, people make decisions that don't fit with their brand. I think, at the long run, that's typically a bad decision. It's something you want to think about when you're making that big career change, whatever kind of change that is.

The other blog post I want to share is from the Muse. It's called, "The Scientifically-Proven Way to Overcome Your Career Fears." I'll admit, this title is a little bit click-baity, but I think the content in here is really good. We can excuse that title. We all know that sometimes fear immobilizes us and makes it almost impossible to make a good career decision. I know this has been true for myself in the past. I was once in a job that I was miserable at. Every day was painful to go to work. I didn't like it here at all. I didn't leave because I had this voice in my head that says, "What happens if you leave? You'll never get another job. You'll be destitute on the street." That's all just crazy talk in your head. (laughter)

Mac Prichard:   

I think we've all had that, that vision.

Ben Forstag:   

So we're all a little crazy, right?

Mac Prichard:   

Mine involves sleeping in a cardboard box.

Ben Forstag:

Okay, well maybe we can be neighbors, when we meet. I like this blog because it shares some tips on how you can overcome that knee-jerk fear reaction that you have, which is often not based in anything real. The author borrows from some controlled exposure strategies that psychologists use to treat other fears, like the fear of flying, or arachnophobia. Basically, it's a 3-step process.

1: Analyzing the fear, figuring out where that fear comes from, what it's costing you, how it manifests, and so forth.

2: Creating a plan to slowly expose yourself to that fearful situation so that you can give yourself a little leeway and test the waters without jumping right into something that you find scary.

Then, 3: Executing on that plan in a meaningful way.

I also like that the examples the author uses here about fears in a workplace situation. It's not just about switching jobs, which is a great unknown out there, but also about issues like how to confront a boss that you have issues with, which can be a very scary situation, or the fear of meeting personal professional expectations, which is one I, frankly, struggle with. Again, that blog is, "The Scientifically-Proven Way to Overcome Your Career Fears." It's on the Muse blog. Again, the link will be in the show notes.

Mac Prichard:   

Thank you, Ben. If you've got a suggestion for Ben, please let us hear from you. You can write him to his email address. It's [email protected].

Let's turn to our inbox, the high-tech mailbag, and hear from you, our listeners. Cecilia joins us to answer one of your questions. Cecilia, what are you hearing from listeners this week?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, this week our questions is, "Should people who want to relocate move before they have a new job lined up?" That's a great question. I don't necessarily think there's a general yes or no to this question. It really just depends on your circumstances and how much of a risk it's going to be for you to relocate without first having a source of income. That being said, I do think it's easier to get a job once you're in the city that you want to work in. If you're able to relocate without taking a huge financial or personal risk, I would probably suggest it. Ben and Mac, you've both relocated more than once. Did you move before you had a job?

Ben Forstag:   

Well, I've done both. Back in the early aughts, I was living in Spain. My visa in Spain ran out. I had to move back to the States and didn't have time to find a job beforehand. Without a job, I moved to Washington D.C., somehow convinced an apartment building to let me move in without any provable income. It took me a while to find a job there. It was scary, but in that situation, I didn't really have many other choices, so I did that.

When I moved to Portland, I actually got a job lined up before I moved out here. I think that was a unique situation, though, because first, it's pretty rare, but second, I had a very strong case to make that I was moving to Portland whether I had a job or not. I think that reassured the employer that this wasn't just some flighty application. In the case of moving to Portland, I said, "My wife and I already have plans to move to Oregon. Here's the move date. We've already lined up housing and everything else." The employer knew that I was a real candidate. I wasn't just someone from Washington D.C. applying for a job.

Mac Prichard:

I've been lucky enough to have a job to each city I've moved to for the first time, Washington D.C., Boston, and Portland. I will say when I went to D.C., I had just graduated college and was coming off a political campaign. I had a promise of a job for 4 weeks, and it turned out, once I got there, I stayed at that position for 2 years. I didn't think twice about getting on the Greyhound bus from the Midwest, and I think it was just youthful optimism, not something I'd recommend to everybody.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah. It sounds like good experience. I do want to mention that while it is probably easier to find something once you've moved, we've actually heard plenty of success stories from people who have moved before having a job. We actually just published a post featuring a woman who found a job within a week of moving because of the preparation she did beforehand. If you don't have a job, but you want to move anyway, there are things you can do, like she did, to make it a smoother transition. Doing research on local organizations that you want to work for and getting connected to people who currently work there, that's a great way to start. You can also use social media as a tool to get a pulse on the local job market. On Twitter, it's always worth checking for a hashtag that covers what jobs are available. Then, Facebook and LinkedIn, there are tons of job groups in each city that you can join. You can also follow local companies, which often post if they're hiring on those 2 sites.

One more note: I think if I was planning to relocate, I would probably reach out to recruiting agencies in the town I wanted to live in because they're always looking for talent. They can really help you make the connections you need to before you move. Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Ben Forstag:  

I have a question for you. In the past, when I've applied for a job when I was out of state, I've thought, "Well, if only I had like a P.O. box that said 'Portland' on it when I applied to this Portland-based job." Do you think there's any value in that, or is that just disingenuous?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I don't think it's a good idea to make that up. I think that there's little things you can do, like changing your location online. On LinkedIn, if you change your city, that's a great thing to do. If employers are looking, they'll see, not that you're in that city necessarily, but if they're looking to hire in that city, if you're there, they can find you.

Ben Forstag:      

You've publicly committed to moving to that city.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Right, right.

Mac Prichard: 

I like your suggestion, Cecilia, about connecting with a temporary agency because not only can you make good connections that could lead to a permanent position, but if you do come to a town and you don't have a job there, that's a way of getting work right away, beginning to meet people, and make those connections that you can't do from afar.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah. I think that's really important. The quickest way to find a job is through people you know, so doing what you can to make those personal connections in advance is the best thing.

Ben Forstag:    

I'd just throw out there as well that, from what I know about employers and how they work, if they think you're the right person and you're going to solve their problems, they will wait for a couple weeks or a month until you are able to relocate to the town for them. Obviously, the location differences create a barrier, but it's not an insurmountable barrier. It puts just a little more onus on the job seeker to prove that they are the absolute, unique, right match for that position.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, definitely.

Mac Prichard:   

Thanks for that great information, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, please email her. Her address is [email protected] .

These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." We're making the complete Mac's List guide even better. We're adding new content and publishing the book on different e-reader platforms. On February 1st of this year, 2016, you'll be able to access for the first time "Land Your Dream Job in Portland" on your Kindle, Nook, iPad, and other digital devices. You'll also be able to get, for the first time, a paperback edition. Whatever the format, our goal is the same: to give you the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. For more information, visit macslist.org/ebook and sign up for our e-book newsletter. Once you do, we'll send you publication updates and share exclusive book content, as well as provide you with special pre-sale prices. We're recording this in mid-January. We encourage you to get out there soon because there are great deals coming.

Now, let's turn this week's guest expert, Victoria Crispo. Victoria Crispo is manager of career content at Idealist Careers and author of the "Ask Victoria" advice column, where she answers questions for social change job seekers and career changers. Before joining Idealist.org, Victoria helped non-profit job seekers as a resume writer, career coach, and in higher education. Victoria, thanks for joining us today.

Victoria Crispo:  

Thank you so much for having me, Mac. Great to be here.

Mac Prichard:

It's a pleasure to have you on the show. We're recording in January, and a topic that is on many people's minds are resolutions for the new year. It's also a subject that I think has relevance throughout the year. Let's talk about New Years resolutions, Victoria, and let's go straight to the dark side. Why don't most New Years resolutions work for job seekers, career managers, and just people in general?

Victoria Crispo:  

Sure. I think that there are a couple of important points to keep in mind, actually even before you even start to make the resolution, which will then cause it to be a lot easier to keep. One of those aspects that I think can really help is making sure that the goal that you craft, the resolution that you're trying to achieve, is something that is very specific and also measurable. The measurable piece is important because you want to be able to have a way to know that you're progress and that you are actually making change and seeing improvement. That's definitely one area that is really important as you think about not just keeping your resolution, but the first part is how to create a resolution that you will be able to keep and the other things that are involved in that.

Mac Prichard:  

Let's unpack that for our listeners, because I imagine many people are thinking, "Okay. This is the year I want to get a new job." They write that down. How do they make that measurable and specific, Victoria?

Victoria Crispo:   

Actually, almost just what you said, unpack it a little bit. What are the other details that are going to be involved in getting that job? That might require doing a little bit of research and reflection. First, figuring out what type of job do you want? Beyond that, what are the things that you need in order to get that job? It might involve taking a look at job descriptions that relate to that type of work. What are the responsibilities that are involved? Have you done that type of work before? What are the skills that are necessary? Do you have those skills, or do you have other ones that might be able to serve as a supplement?

In regards to having something that's measurable, it might require having some additional steps before you get to that main resolution of, "I want a new job for 2016." For example, if you see a job description that you're really interested in, and there is a requirement for a certain skill, whether it's computer skills, social media management, whatever it might be, if it's a skill that you don't have, start thinking about what is it that you need to do to get yourself on track and make sure that the resolution that you've developed for yourself is something that you can actually achieve in the time frame that you've given yourself.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. Define what that job is, find out what the typical title might be, look for examples of specific job postings that you might see online on job boards or elsewhere, then identify the skills that are required to do that work, and think about the gaps that you might have than employer might see and how you might address those gaps.

Victoria Crispo:   

Absolutely.

Mac Prichard:  

Okay. You need to be clear about what you want. What are some of the other steps that people need to take in setting these career resolutions?

Victoria Crispo:    

Absolutely. Be clear about what you want and the steps that you may not have thought about beforehand that you'll need to get there. I think it's definitely helpful to build in smaller tasks along the way, things that you can use as milestones, reasons for celebration. You are your best judge as to what that means for you. I can certainly give some examples, but it might be gaining entry into a specific area by volunteering and maybe developing a really great relationship with your volunteer manager, which perhaps then leads to an informational interview with someone else, who can take you to the next step. Having a good idea of what success might look like and also knowing that it might not be the exact picture of what you might think, and how to really determine that you are staying on track. Developing some little, smaller tasks that kind of show you that green light of, "Yes. I'm on the right path. I'm getting someplace," are things that you can celebrate, those little, the small victories that you can celebrate and feel good that you're getting to where you want to go.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. Baby steps can pay off. As you move forward, even though it might be in an incremental way, you'll see the progress. Reading your blog before the show, I know you've talked a lot about the importance and the value of having accountability partners. Tell us about the difference an accountability partner can make in setting these kinds of resolutions or in job hunting in general.

Victoria Crispo: 

I know, for myself personally, I love having someone who I can speak to about the things that I'm looking to do, and someone who is giving me that metaphorical tap on the shoulder of, "Oh, hey. Did you ... ? How are things going with x, y, z?" It is so, so helpful to have someone there in your corner who is able to just be a person who you can check in with and help you evaluate whether you're still on-task. Of course, it doesn't mean that you're going to necessarily take a lot of time out from this other individual. It can be very quick emails. Let's say you, as well, are a writer, and one of your goals is to develop a personal/professional portfolio that showcases the type of work that you do. You might, for example, share a link with your accountability partner.

It can be a very informal, yet scheduled arrangement, where maybe you check in once a week or once every other week, but that there is someone there who can attest to, "Yes. You said you were going to do x, y, z, and you did it." I have definitely found that to be helpful in the past. In fact, there are sites that exist, I don't know if you're familiar with Stikk.com?

Mac Prichard:   

No. Tell us about that.

Victoria Crispo:  

Sure. It's actually Stikk with two k's. It is a way for individuals to set a goal, set the time that they are expecting to complete that goal, and they can set up a referee. That would be, in essence, you accountability partner. If you like, you can also have financial stakes in the game for when you accomplish your goal. I believe it's set up so that you can have that money go to a charity, the charity of your choice. You can also do the opposite, so if you miss your goal, you can have it sent to a charity that you really don't want to support. Therein lies and even deeper blow. (laughs)

Mac Prichard:   

All right. Well, that can be motivating.

Victoria Crispo:  

Absolutely.

Mac Prichard: 

Yeah. I've certainly had good experience with accountability partners. I remember during one job search, there was a friend I would call. This was a long time ago because we were still looking at newspaper classified ads. When the Sunday paper came out, we would call each other and say, "Okay. I saw this position. I saw that position. I'm going to apply for this one or that one." Just that weekly call was very affirming, and it was nice to have that connection. I'm sure you've had this experience too. I've had colleagues who've had good success with job support groups, groups of people who meet together to just keep each other updated on their progress, but also to set goals and exchange tips and other information.

Victoria Crispo:   

Definitely. It's so helpful to have that. I know there are some local job search support groups around here that have been really beneficial for the members. If there's not an in-person group in your area, there may be one online that you can join. That, too, can be effective, if it's a place where you can check in via email or in an online group. I definitely recommend that, as well.

Mac Prichard:  

Okay. Let's talk about mistakes you see people make that they should avoid when setting New Years resolutions for their careers. What stands out for you, Victoria?

Victoria Crispo:

I think the main things that stand out are again, not really doing that leg work beforehand of really discovering whether it's something that you can achieve in the time frame that you've given yourself. In some cases, it might be that there are, again, additional steps that you need to take in order to get to where you want to see yourself next. I think that that is definitely one of the bigger quote mistakes that I see, is not really factoring in some of the other things that might come into play as you're doing the work. I think the other mistake is, while it's great to have a goal, definitely building in some leeway for yourself and not beating yourself up too hard if you don't in fact make it by your set time. Job search is only one part of life. In fact, it's all of the other aspects of living.

If you look at it in a holistic way, all of the other things that affect life, your relationships, your health, et cetera, do have a place in what happens in your job search as well. Sometimes, the drawback that a job seeker may have when they're trying to meet a resolution that they've set for themselves is forgetting those other aspects that come into play and that sometimes you may need to account for unexpected things that come up in life. Just because you haven't necessarily met your goal exactly doesn't mean that you haven't gone any distance whatsoever. I think that seeing those changes and improvements in your life, even if you haven't necessarily gone exactly where you expected to be is something that should be considered, too.

Mac Prichard:   

In summary, be specific, break your tasks down into small, manageable pieces, and be kind to yourself. Realize that you're not going to get it done in one day or one month, but you will make progress if you're focused, over the course of a year.

Victoria Crispo: 

Definitely.

Mac Prichard:   

Victoria, what's coming up next for you and your organization, Idealist.org?

Victoria Crispo:                 

Sure. Next month, we will be running an email-based course called find your fit. I definitely encourage anyone who might be interested in exploring their passions and figuring out where they want to go next professionally to sign up. It is a free course, and we will be making the announcement on our site, IdealistCareers.org, and also, of course, on our email list, which you can subscribe to on IdealistCareers.org.

Mac Prichard:  

Thank you, Victoria, and it's been a pleasure having you on the show.

Victoria Crispo:

Thank you very much, Mac. It's been great talking with you.

Mac Prichard:   

To learn more about Idealist, there are 2 great web pages you can explore. The first one is IdealistCareers.org, that's all one word. IdealistCareers.org. When you go there, you'll find career resources and tools. Idealist has a wonderful job board with, actually, thousands of listings. You can find those at Idealist.org. Victoria is on Twitter, and her Twitter handle is @AskVictoria. We'll be sure to put all of these links in the show notes.

We're back in the Mac's List studio. I'm sitting here with Ben and Cecilia. What did you 2 think of the conversation with Victoria? What were some of the key takeaways for you?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Well, the main takeaway I got, I really like her point about breaking down your goal into steps so you can really determine if it's unrealistic or realistic for you to achieve that goal, and then edit it from there.

Ben Forstag:  

I thought her point about accountability partners was so important, not only so that you've got someone providing some oversight for you and making sure you're staying true to yourself and your goals, but also just so you're not doing this by yourself, right? Sometimes you need another person to share your frustrations or your triumphs with. I think having an accountability partner like that is a great idea.

Mac Prichard:  

I agree. One of the things that I think is surprising to many job seekers, particularly people who have been unemployed for a while, and I certainly have been there. I've gone through 2 long periods of unemployment, is in my case, I'd began to think I didn't have a lot to offer. We all have a lot to offer. We all have lots of experiences and skills, and helping somebody else by being that accountability partner is one of the most important things I think we can do.

Okay. Well, thank you all for joining us and holding us accountable to our weekly production schedule. We'll be back next Wednesday with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, please visit us at MacsList.org, and you can sign up for our free newsletter there. It's published every Tuesday, with more than a hundred new jobs every week.

If you like what you hear on the show, you can help us by leaving a review and a rating at iTunes. I've recently read that more than 80% of podcast listeners find shows on iTunes. By leaving a rating and review, you help us rise in the iTunes rankings, get in front of more job seekers, and help more people. Thanks for your help, and thanks for listening.

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Government jobs are always tough to land. Mastering the oft-byzantine formal application process takes practice and insider know-how. In this bonus episode of Find Your Dream Job, Mac Prichard shares his experience applying for government jobs. Mac has worked in multiple departments for the State of Oregon, as well as for several local and state-level elected officials.

Mac reads "How To Get An Oregon Government Job", his contribution to the Mac's List book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). And while he speaks primarily about his experience in Oregon, the practical lessons Mac shares are generally applicable to any government job, whether at the federal, state or local level.

If you’re looking for more advice on developing a brand that attracts employers, check out Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). The 2016 edition, available February 1, includes new content and will be available on a wide range of e-reading devices, including Kindle, Nook and iBooks. You will even be able to order a paperback edition!

To learn more, sign-up for our ebook mailing list at www.macslist.org/book. When you join this list, we'll send you publication updates, insider ebook content, and special pre-sale price discounts.

Make 2016 the year you land your dream job!

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Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

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You will find competitors in whatever career you choose. No matter how small or niche your field, some people always stand out in your profession.  Education, experience and other advantages contribute to these people’s success, but how you lead you work life can makes a huge difference, too.

One of the best ways to stand out in your field and in your career is through creative collaboration. Embracing mutuality--sharing of your strengths, acknowledging your weaknesses and partnering with others with complementary skill sets--strengthens your professional credentials in an increasingly interconnected economy. And people who can facilitate collaboration are best positioned to solve employers’ most pressing challenges.

This week on Find Your Dream Job, our guest expert is Kare Anderson, Emmy-winning journalist, TED presenter, and author of Mutuality Matters and Moving from Me to We. Kare believes that collaborative problem solving is the key to a dynamic, engaging and impactful career. She shares her thoughts on how to improve mutuality and the value of team collaboration.

In this 32-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Kare Anderson (@KareAnderson | LinkedIn)Journalist and SpeakerAuthor, Moving from Me to We, Mutuality Matters, and moreSan Francisco, Calif.

Listener question of the week:

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

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Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard: 

This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and by our book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond)." To learn more about the book and the new edition that we're publishing February 1, please visit macslist.org/ebook.

Whatever career you choose, you'll find competitors, no matter how small or crowed your field may be, some people always stand out in your profession. Education, experience and other advantages play a part in these people's success, but how you lead your work life can make a huge difference, too. This week on Find Your Dream Job, we're talking about how you can advance your career by combining your strengths with the complementary skills of others. Our guest expert this week is Kare Anderson. She and I will talk about specific steps you can take in your professional life to break out of the pack.

Ben Forstag has several online tools you can use to improve your teamwork skills, and Cecilia Bianco tackles the question that comes up in every workplace: Should you hire family and friends? We're in the Mac's List studio, and I'm here with Cecilia and Ben. First of all, Ben, welcome back from your paternity leave.

Ben Forstag:  

Thank you.

Mac Prichard: 

Congratulations on the new son.

Ben Forstag: 

Thank you. Little Fox, as we call him, is doing very well.

Mac Prichard:   

I love that acronym.

Well, it's a pleasure to have you back. Now, when you two think about peers you've had, either at school or in the workplace or elsewhere, who've stood out, what have you seen them do?

Cecilia Bianco:

I think the biggest thing that stands out to me is how engaged someone is in their field. If someone's really focused on attending events, workshops, and joining the right groups for their career, I think that goes a long way to making them stand out.

Ben Forstag:   

One thing that I've seen that I really like is people who maintain active and high quality blogs. I think this is so important because it shows a dedication. This is something you do weekly or on a regular basis. It positions you as a subject matter expert regardless of how big or small that subject is. It's quite notable when you are the subject matter expert on it. Third, it is a showcase for good quality writing. I think those things are so important, and it's just a great way to position yourself with employers and other professional prospects.

Mac Prichard:   

I think the common denominator that runs through both of the examples that you two have shared, and they're great examples, is a topic that our guest is going to talk about this week, which is the importance of giving to others. She has a book that we'll talk about, "Mutuality," but the idea is this that by helping others and being part of a community, whether it's by writing a blog or participating in professional groups and/or going to events, you're giving of yourself, and you're thinking about the needs of others and how you can help. First, let's turn to you, Ben. I know you have a resource for our listeners this week. What have you found?

Ben Forstag:    

This week I want to share three blog posts all about the importance of teamwork. When I say that word I know some people are rolling their eyes, and other people are getting great big smiles. Teamwork is one of these clichéd words that really divides people. What do you think Cecilia? Are you a teamwork person, or a work alone person?

Cecilia Bianco:

I'm more of a teamwork person. I think, as you said, it's become really important in today's work market. Almost all of our listings have that listed as a qualification: How do you work on a team?

Mac Prichard:  

I enjoy teamwork, too. I have to say when I was in graduate school, I got a lot out of that experience. One of the most important gifts I got was they had us work in study groups, and I had not done that as an undergraduate. That gave me the experience to work with others and helping others in the group, and I found I got a lot more out of my education as a result.

Ben Forstag: 

I'm of two minds when it comes to teamwork. Part of me really sees the value in it. It's undeniable that this is a skill that employers are looking for. I would guess that ninety-five percent of every job description that we get here at Mac's List includes teamwork as one of the things they're looking for. At the same time, when I was in graduate school, team projects were always those projects where I thought, "Oh man, now I've got to do extra work to cover up for other people." It's something that I'm always working on, and I know I can improve on. That's why I thought this was an interesting topic. It also feeds into what we talked about earlier about working with others and giving to others in a team environment.

The first post I want to share comes from the Lifehack blog, and it's called the "10 Things Good Team Players Do Differently." As Cecilia mentioned terms like teamwork and team player are often used so much they lose all of their meaning. I really liked this post because it outlines some basic behaviors that make someone a good team participant. Here are the ten attributes of team players according to the blog: They're reliable. They're unafraid of failure. They share information. They say what they think. They don't dominate meetings. They stay positive. They understand and respect team dynamics. They know when to say "no." They are adept at problem solving. They go the extra mile.

This all sounds great, Mac, right? This is exactly the kind of person you want to hire.

Mac Prichard:  

Right.

Ben Forstag:   

If I had any criticism of this blog piece, it might be that this sounds like the ideal person. A good team player is a just a great listener, does everything right. I do like it because they are concrete things to think about, and how you behave in the office, and how you work with your colleagues. Just things to keep in the back of your mind about how you could improve your relations and your productivity with others.

If you heard that list and you thought that doesn't sound like me at all, my next resource is for you. This is a post entitled, "The Introvert's Guide to Surviving Teamwork, and it comes from the Psychology Today blog. As I mentioned earlier, I actually consider myself something of an introvert, and I know how difficult it can be to assert yourself in a group setting. I like this post because it outlines some mindsets and skill sets and deliberative practices you can use to become an effective team leader.

The general idea here is that introverts play an essentially role in effective teams. You're needed for the team to be effective, and the role you play as an introvert is being the level-headed listener, the aggregator of good ideas, and the implementer of group decisions. I love this quote from the blog. The author writes, "Extroverts love to talk, but are much less enthused about having to walk away and do the work. This is the introvert's chance to shine. You can be the one who puts your hand up and to work on a project offline." I think that's an important thing to keep in mind because teamwork requires different kinds of people. If it's just a bunch of talkers, nothing is going to get done.

Lastly I want to share a blog for how you can talk about your teamwork skills with a prospective employer. As I was thinking about this subject yesterday, it really struck me that what a challenge it is to illustrate your skills as a team player in the interview process, because in most of the things we're doing in an interview is trying to show how great ... like you're the number one guy, you're the expert in everything, you have all the answers, and teamwork is not one of these skills where being the guy with all the answers is an asset. That's often a liability.

This post had some interesting answers on how you can answer behavioral questions related to teamwork. It comes from the biginterview.com blog. I'll have the URLs for all these blog posts in the show notes. It's a very long post, but it includes some sample interview questions around teamwork, discusses why employers are asking these questions, and provides some strategies on how you can best answer these questions in a way that shows the skills you have as a team player without bragging, without going over the top, and really presenting yourself as an ideal candidate for their needs.

Cecilia Bianco:

Your point about focusing on behavioral interview questions I think is really important because if you're trying to act like a team player in an interview, the best way to do that is through examples, so being prepared with examples that show you're a team player is a great way to go.

Mac Prichard:   

I think your point, too, Ben, about how in interviews there's a tendency to try to please the prospective employer by saying I can do everything and I'm a star in everything. I think smart employers know they're not going to get a hundred percent of everything that's in a job description, and a candidate can't do everything. I think it's important for candidates to remember that, because if they are hired, they will be part of a team. They will have strengths that they can bring to that group, but they can't do everything. If they're managers themselves or they become managers one day, they're going to recognize the value of being able to identify strengths in others, and draw people out in those strengths, and give them opportunities to display them.

Ben Forstag:      

Really, that's the value of teamwork essentially. It's a way to maximize people's strengths and cover up their weaknesses by combining compatible strengths and collaborating that way. Before I leave I just want to share this one awesome quote that I came across. It's about the value of teamwork, and this comes from Bill Gates. He said, "Creativity is less of an individual characteristic than it is an emergent property that surfaces when people convene around a problem." I think that kind of gets at the heart of why most employers nowadays want you to be a good team player because it helps you come up with unique, good solutions to problems that individuals by themselves can't figure out.

Mac Prichard: 

I think together a team is stronger and an organization is better for it. Well, thank you Ben. Ben is always looking for suggestions, and he's always thrilled when he hears from people who have ideas for him, so please write him. You can reach him at [email protected]. Now let's turn to you, our listeners. It's time to hear from Cecilia Bianco, our community manager. She's going to reach deep and far into the mailbag, and pull out this week's question. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week?

Cecilia Bianco:

Actually our question this week came from Twitter, not the mailbag, and it's, "Is it a bad idea to accept a job working for or with family members or friends? What should I consider before accepting?" I personally worked at a family business, and I know it can definitely create tension among other employees. There's a lot to consider and talk about before you accept the job. The most important thing you can get do is set boundaries with the family member or friend before you actually take the job. Ben, I know you've worked with family before, too. What ground rules did you have in place to make it a successful experience?

Ben Forstag:  

A few years ago I was working at a nonprofit, and my father actually got hired by the nonprofit as a consultant to do some sales work for them. It was a tense situation, but we made it work, and mostly because we had a couple informal rules. One of them was when he started I made it clear that I had no managerial authority over him, and he had no managerial authority over me. We worked in two separate departments and had two separate people that we reported to, which helped.

I also removed myself from pretty much any decision that had to do with what he was doing. You're not always able to do this in an organization. Fortunately in the organization I was with there were enough other people that could pick up the slack, and I could step out of some conversations simply because I just didn't want to be involved with that piece.

Then the third one, and I think this is the most important, is I made a deal with my father. We weren't going to talk about work when we weren't at work. I think it's important to have a work life and a private life. If your private life turns into a second work life because all the same people are in both camps, you lose that area to decompress and to relax. Off hours we didn't talk about work. If he had a complaint about work or I had a complaint about work, we didn't talk about it to each other. We just pretended that that didn't exist. It was a unique situation, and we made it work. I think it really depends on your own specific circumstances, though, of whether it's a viable option.

Cecilia Bianco:

Those are all great suggestions. I think the most important main thing to consider is if you're confident that you and the family member or friend in question can treat each other as you would any other coworker or boss. Knowing everything you know about them, as I'm sure you know your father very well, are you going to be able to put aside that knowledge and treat them unbiasedly? Especially once office conflict comes up or any situations arise, you want to be able to treat them like you would a coworker that you haven't known your whole life. Mac, have you ever worked with a family member?

Mac Prichard:  

I have. My dad had rental properties from many years. He would hire my brother and I and I think my sisters as well to paint apartments, move tenants and put up wallpaper. I wasn't good at any of those things. My sister, Katie, is a star at wallpaper, and she is still papering walls decades later. We all had jobs, but we tended to ... After a stint with my dad, I worked in restaurants or in other places.

Cecilia Bianco:

Was it a good experience or a bad?

Mac Prichard: 

It was a good experience. He was basically a small business owner, running his rental properties. Being part of that, going with him, watching him work with tenants, deal with leases, purchase properties, work with realtors, he brought us all along, and we got to watch that firsthand and participate in it. I think we learned some valuable lessons as a result.

Cecilia Bianco:

In that situation it sounds like it was beneficial because you were probably given a little bit more opportunity to learn since it was your father who was the boss rather than maybe another boss.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. I certainly learned from my other jobs in high school and college, but I think a family member is always going to take more of an interest in a relative, a child or other relative. Many families, I think, want to see their kid succeed in that business as well, and so they want to make that happen.

Cecilia Bianco:

That makes sense. Two different situations but the same answer. It's okay to accept a job from a family member. Our main point of advice is just to sit down, and get those ground rules in place, and make sure you're on the same page about how you want the work relationship to go.

Mac Prichard: 

Well, thanks Cecilia. If you've got a question for Cecilia, you can send it to her via Twitter and also by email. Her email address is [email protected]. Cecilia, for the benefit for our listeners who on Twitter, how can they reach you via your Twitter handle?

Cecilia Bianco:

They can tweet @Macs_list, or they can tweet me personally @Ceciliamfbianco.

Mac Prichard:   

These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of our book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond)." We're taking a complete Mac's List guide and making it even better. We're adding new content, and we're publishing the book on multiple eReader platforms. There's a new version of the book coming in February of this year, February 1 actually. For the first time you'll be able to access "Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond)" on your Kindle, your Nook, your iPad and other digital devices. Up till now it's just been available as a PDF. Now for the first time you'll be able to get a paperback edition. Whatever the format, our goal is the same, to give you the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. To learn more, go to our website. Visit macslist.org/ebook, and you can sign up for our eBook newsletter. We sending out publication updates now, and we're sharing exclusive book content. We're also providing pre-sale prices that are available right now.

Let's turn to this week's guest expert. Kare Anderson is a public speaker, author of "Mutuality Matters" and other books, and an Emmy award-winning, NBC and Wall Street Journal reporter who now writes for Forbes and Huffington Post. Kare's TED talk called The Web of Humanity: Becoming an Opportunity Maker has attracted more than 1.7 million views. Her diverse set of clients includes Salesforce, Novartis and Skoll Foundation. Kare, thanks for joining us.

Kare Anderson:

I'm honored. We share an interest in making our work serve the greater good.

Mac Prichard:   

I appreciate having that bond with you. I've been very impressed reading your blog over the years about your writing about the importance of human connection, and how much it matters to us all, and what a difference it can make in our careers. One of the topics that you've addressed is how people can stand out in their job search, at work, or in their career by making the most of their social connections. Tell us more about that Kare.

Kare Anderson:   

I believe it not only makes your life more nourishing, but you stand out when you cultivate relationships with people who have adjacent talents to yours and when you cite and praise the thought leaders and the people in your line of work, your profession, your industry or company. Whenever you shine a spotlight specifically praising people for actions they took, especially in front of people who matter to them, you shine too. I think people notice you. It's always nice to have people offer you a job before you're looking for it even if you don't want it, and that's one way to do that.

Mac Prichard: 

I think many people will hope that will happen, that someone will approach them and offer them a job. That might happen by posting a resume or a profile on LinkedIn, or getting in touch with an executive recruiter. They just have to sit back and wait for that call, but in your writing you have a different perspective. You say that you can make that happen but there are steps that people have to take. Can you tell us more about that?

Kare Anderson:  

One of them is I believe in clarity and specificity. The more you're clear and specific on your talents, and the flip side where you're not, the more you might see situations, markets that people are trying to serve, new markets they might be entering, what's missing in their company that might leverage more value or visibility to their current customers and prospects. Then when you do that writing about those situations, if you're prone to writing, is helpful or citing them.

When you're talking to customers say, "Just as so and so does this and this company does this, we fill in the gap in between, and we think we want to meet the high standard they do," specifically citing the benefits of companies that you might want to be in or how [to serve 00:19:30] situations makes people more aware of you. I think it's good to also be proactive and be on the lookout for leaders of companies that you admire and say, "That's a company I like. I like what they're doing. I like the way they do that. I wonder if there's a way my talents could serve them." So there are ways to be proactive, but also, of course, ways to be clear and concrete and specific when you're being interviewed.

Mac Prichard:   

Tell us more about examples of that. If someone goes to a professional association, they see people who are those kinds of leaders you described a moment ago, and they think they can be of help to them, or they're not sure how they can be of help. Let's break that into two parts. First of all, they know they want to be of service to someone. How can they figure out how they could be beneficial to them, and then how might they do that?

Kare Anderson:  

First of all, learn a little bit about ... that person does well or something where you think there's a gap for them, and when you're at a conference or a social gathering say, "I've long admired your capacity to do this. I wonder if we could talk a bit about it because I have a shared interest in serving that market or in that situation, and I want to give you some suggestions and see what you thought of them. I'd love your candid advice frankly." What if ...? If they say that, say, "What about this? What if we did that?"

Recently I'm a big fan of analytics [geeks 00:20:56] for example. I think there's certain occupations where there's growth, and they're certainly one of them. If they say "I notice you have a great product. I notice that you get a lot of good testimonials. That shows that you're doing a lot of things right. Would you be interested in exploring how to understand more deeply the profile of the kind of customer you serve, the traits they have in common both as it relates to your product but also in other parts of their life?"

For example, I found out a team I work with of analytics geeks that surgeons happen to like fine wine and male surgeons especially. They also like certain lines of clothing when they're out of the hospital. So when the analytics said we've found this out about the profile of the customers you're serving, these surgeons, can we propose that we join with your marketing people to find efficient ways to reach them in other unexpected places and to perhaps partner with some of the organizations that reach them in those situations so you can stand out more? So they were coming at it differently.

Or thinking about a nursery. I'm working with a nursery. There's five outlets. I suggested to them stand out, not only sell plants but offer three options to keep your business growing. Offer to sell the service of people who will plant the plants for them, whether it's for an individual organization or to create a landscape design that can go with the plants and/or provide regular maintenance plus suggestions of when to add what kinds of plants to their business landscaping or their home. That way the person offering that, they may be a landscaper, they may be someone who's just seeking more work at a basic level planting plants. I admire the people saying, "Let me help you differentiate your product by what I can do to help you. So that was just two examples.

Mac Prichard:   

Those are great examples. What I like about those as you were talking is that you're thinking about the needs of the person you want to help.

Kare Anderson: 

Yes.

Mac Prichard:   

You have the services they might require. Whether it's you're running a business and you're trying to identify the needs of potential or current clients and how you might need them, or you're looking for work and you want connect with a potential employer, it all comes back to the needs of the person you want to have that relationship with, and how you can help meet them.

Kare Anderson: 

That's very well put. I call it triangling, triangle talk. First referring to you, say, "Is this an interest of yours?" or "I noticed you're doing this. Am I on target? May we talk about something a way I think ...? I know a person who could help you or I could." So it's you, me and then us, which is increasingly rare in our culture by the way.

Mac Prichard:  

I think making those connections with others and being a kind of broker can make a huge difference. You've written about the work of Adam Grant, a professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, about the value of giving to others without any expectation of getting something in return. You've talked about that in your book, "Mutuality." Can you tell us more about the book, the main idea? I know you've got some practical steps in that book that you share with readers about how they can act on that idea.

Kare Anderson:    

I'd be glad to. One of the things that's important about Adam is he said givers are among the least and most successful, so it's how you give. Because one of my hot buttons, which I'm trying to work on, are people who are unhelpful givers. They give something that clearly demonstrates they don't really know you, and so you try to act genial back. But in "Mutuality Matters" I believe the future in our increasingly connected world is to cultivate relationships with people of complementary talents around sweet spots of mutual interests. The more you do that you'll have more lenses on a situation. You can innovate faster. You can see an opportunity or solve a problem better.

In that attitude you don't do it just when there's a crisis. You do it ahead of time. You can, in effect, becomes what Joe Calloway calls a 'category of one,' where you're the only person that combines a strength, that's somewhat unique, with a network of people where you can call on them, and they will call on you. It's not quid pro quo, but it's an ebb and flow of mutuality over time. Thus you can stand out wherever you are at any level of a large company or small one.

That's why I like intranets, by the way, for companies because an intranet is a internet within a company. A lot of them ... badly designed so it looks like more work, but when it's done right, and this just makes my heart sing, when you can ask for help internally from each other, you see who keeps asking for help but doesn't ever get asked for help, and you see who's the most helpful. Again going back to Adam, he said it's not leaders we should look for in an organization, but who offers the most helpful assist most often. They provide the assistance that people want. They add the missing link. They help become the glue that holds groups together. That, I think, is increasingly what individuals need and organizations need to stay agile.

Doing that is in your enlightened self-interest. I also think it makes for less conflict and more conviviality when you're speaking to a part of someone saying, "You can do this." Like I'm a fast thinker. My business partner's a slow thinker. Doesn't mean one's smart and dumb. I'm an extrovert. In some situation he's an introvert. We're now realizing the reverse may true. But we can do and see things that the other person can't and vice versa. That's my wordy way of saying why I like mutuality. It also makes it fun because you say, "Oh my gosh, I never would have thought of that.

Mac Prichard: 

Our skills and our weaknesses can complement others when we're part of a team. I wanted to get back to your book. You had talked about specific ways in the book that people can promote mutuality. Can you tell us more about some of those steps?

Kare Anderson: 

I think the first thing in promoting mutuality is to speak to the side of someone you most like and admire, especially when they're not demonstrating it, because it's not how people feel about us when they first meet us. It's how they feel about themselves. I think [citing 00:27:47] to two or three other people, one of my favorites, a thing that three unexpected allies could do together around a sweet spot means they often will like the experience they have on one action, and they'll like you for making it happen. Those are two ways to spur mutuality and where they're more likely to be pulled toward you and think of you. If you give enough other people what they need in their life, you often get what you need, even before you know you need it, from people you sometimes didn't think could provide it. I think that makes for a productive and satisfying life [in 00:28:20] mutuality.

Mac Prichard:   

I think that's well said. Well, we'll include links to your book and to the two authors you mentioned as well. Thank you for joining us today, Kare.

Kare Anderson:   

I thoroughly enjoyed it, and I love your notion online of work backwards. I call it reverse engineering. Have that end goal in mind for you and your team.

Mac Prichard:  

Well, thank you. You can find Kare online at her blog, Moving From Me To We and at her website sayitbetter.com. We'll include links to both of these sites in the show notes. Thank you again for joining us today, Kare.

Kare Anderson:   

I was honored Mac. Thank you and thank the team.

Mac Prichard:  

We're back in the Mac's List studio with Ben and Cecilia. What do you two think? What are some of the important points you heard Kare make?

Ben Forstag: 

I really liked the idea that she put out there that there's a huge professional value to networks, and not just for advancing your own career but as a service in and of themselves. One of the key ideas here is that your unique skills and your ability to bring in other people with their own unique and complementary skill sets, that's a huge asset for a professional for solving problems on the fly. It's something, frankly, we don't think about our networks like that very often, but we should.

Mac Prichard: 

I agree with you Ben. I think each of us is a kind of impresario or broker person who knows lots of people with skills and can bring folks together to solve problems. When we do that, it does create opportunities for us.

Ben Forstag:   

And there's a value-added for being that person who can bring everyone else together.

Mac Prichard:  

Right.

Cecilia Bianco:

Your last point, that's what I took away from the most, thinking about who's the most helpful around you. If you are that person that's providing the most value and help, then you really stand out and are someone people are always thinking about.

Ben Forstag:  

I liked her point also about ... she called it intranets, and a lot of organizations have those, but there's also a lot of communications tools out there. One is called Slack. It's like a chat tool that organizations use so their teams can collaborate openly. The idea that when you put it out there into your network that, "I need help with problem X" and other folks jump and address that problem for you, that mutuality there, that give and take of each person contributing their unique skills, that's where the magic happens. The more we can facilitate that process through technology and through our own willingness to embrace that, the better results we're going to have both professional, personally and for our organizations.

Cecilia Bianco:

I agree. As Kare said, it definitely makes your work life a little bit more fun.

Mac Prichard:  

Well, thank you both, and thank you our listeners. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find that dream job. In the meantime visit us at macslist.org where you can sign up for our free newsletter. It comes out every Tuesday, and there are more than a hundred new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on the show, please let us know by taking a moment to visit iTunes and leave a rating and review. The benefit of that is that it helps us help others because the more ratings and reviews we receive, the higher we rise in the iTunes charts, and the more people learn about the show. Thank you for listening.

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According to one estimate, 80% of employers Google candidates before inviting someone in for a job interview. What will people see when they Google you? Photos from your college spring break trip to Mexico or an up-to-date LinkedIn page? What impression will you create online? That you’re the life of the party or an accomplished professional?

Using social media in your job hunt isn’t only about playing defense. Facebook and other personal accounts can make a big positive difference in your career.

This week on “Find Your Dream Job” Mac talks with Joshua Waldman, CEO and founder of Career Enlightenment, about how to use social media in your job search. Joshua is the author of Job Searching With Social Media For Dummies, and he’s also written for Forbes, Huffington Post, Mashable and the International Business Times. Joshua’s career blog, CareerEnlightenment.com, won the About.com Reader’s Choice Award for Best Career Blog 2013. When he’s not writing, Joshua presents keynotes, trainings and breakout sessions around the world.

In this 28-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Joshua Waldman (@joshuawaldman | LinkedIn)CEO & Founder Career EnlightenmentPortland, Ore.

Listener question of the week:

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

“Wing it” and “job interview” are two phrases that should never go together in the same sentence. Before you walk into an interview, you need to prepare yourself, do your homework, and practice what you will do and say.

But how do you prepare responses when you don’t know the questions? And what, besides having good answers, contributes to a successful interview?

This week on Find Your Dream Job we talk about the interview process and share tips on making a great in-person impression with a prospective employer. Mac chats with executive recruiter and career coach, Janet Brumbaugh, of Janet Brumbaugh and Associates. Janet helps her clients hone their interview skills by video-recording them in mock-interviews; she then reviews the tape with the jobseeker, to identify mistakes and opportunities for improvement. In this episode, Janet shares her expert advice on how to your own interview performance and outcomes.

In this 33-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Janet Brumbaugh (LinkedIn)PrincipalJanet Brumbaugh and AssociatesWest Lynn, Ore.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

HAPPY NEW YEAR! We hope you all had a festive holiday season and that you're staring 2016 re-energized to build the career of your dreams!

To kick off the new calendar year, the Mac's List team is sharing a bonus episode of Find Your Dream Job, featuring one of our most popular guests, Aubrie De Clerck of Portland-based Coaching for Clarity.

In this 3-minute episode, Aubrie reads "Portland's Threads--and Yours", her contribution to the Mac's List ebook, Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond).

If you’re looking for more advice on developing a brand that attracts employers, check out Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). The 2016 edition, available February 1, includes new content and will be available on a wide range of e-reading devices, including Kindle, Nook and iBooks. You will even be able to order a paperback edition!

To learn more, sign-up for our ebook mailing list at www.macslist.org/ebook. When you join this list, we'll send you publication updates, insider ebook content, and special pre-sale price discounts.

Make 2016 the year you land your dream job!

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:   

This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List.

On this bonus episode of Find Your Dream Job, we're bringing back one of our most popular guests, Aubrie De Clerck of Coaching For Clarity. Aubrie is included as one of the local job search experts in Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond), and in today's episode, she'll share her contribution to the book with you, our podcast listeners.

Here's Aubrie De Clerck reading "Portland's Threads--and Yours", from Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond).

Aubrie DeClerck:

In any search, it's up to us to tell our story: Who we are, what we can do, and how we stand out in doing it. Our story is not simply about identifying transferable skills. To find fulfilling work, we need to communicate our threads, the things we're best at, the things we can't stop doing even if we try, the things we do naturally are gifts in a way that creates confidence in ourselves and shows our value to an employer.

Take Portland as an example. We all know about keeping the city weird, but what is consistent about the town that filters into all the community does? What are Portland's threads? Here are two: unrestrainable creative self-expression, and ongoing commitment to environmental protection. How do we know with confidence that this is truly what Portland is about? If we were writing a resume for Portland, we would give specific examples.

For unrestrainable creative self-expression, think about our food and drink: Microbreweries, coffee roasters, adventurous, award winning restaurants and farmer's markets. As for the arts, International Film Festival or Jazz Festival, Tango Fest and monthly art walks. Our annual events that include the Bridge Pedal, the PDX Adult Soap Box Derby, Tour de Coops and Time-Based Art Festival. Then our iconic local businesses: Powell's Books, food carts, Hollywood Theater, and Voodoo Doughnuts.

As for our ongoing commitment to environmental protection, we have compost at the curb. Sixty-three percent of all of our waste is recycled. Investment in public transportation, including our new MAXX Orange Line, strong urban growth boundary, buffer bike lanes, LEED certified buildings and more. With clear examples identified, how do you assign value to them? What do these threads mean about Portland?

To me, they create a great quality of life and keep our community vibrant, essential components for a city I choose to live in.

As you create your personal brand, ask yourself: What are my threads? How do they give value to others?

Mac Prichard:  

If you're looking for more expert advice and insider tips like those that Aubrie just shared, check out Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). This is the definitive guide for finding meaningful work, whether you're in Portland, Oregon, Portland, Maine, or anywhere in between. We're making the book even better. The 2016 edition will include new content and be available on a wide array of e-reading devices, including Kindle, Nook and iBooks, as well as a paperback edition. For more information, visit www.Macslist.org/ebook.

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See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

How do you get a nonprofit job? This is a big question that we hear from all kinds of job seekers: recent college graduates, corporate employees who want to switch careers, and government workers who want to continue to serve the public.

Like the question, the nonprofit sector is big. Almost 11 million Americans work for nonprofits in all kinds of jobs, from running soup kitchens and serving Girl Scouts, to managing organizations with billion dollar budgets.

Starting and maintaining a nonprofit career can be challenge. There’s a lot of competition for social good gigs, and professionals in the private sector may perceive cultural barriers to entry into the nonprofit space. Plus, there’s the question of how to making a living while working for a nonprofit.

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with a nonprofit expert: Allison Jones, Marketing and Publications Director at the Nonprofit Technology Enterprise Network. Allison previously worked at Idealist.org and as a career-focused journalist. In this episode she discusses the different pathways to entering the nonprofit sector and her tips for building a rewarding social good career.

In this 34-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Allison Jones (@ajlovesya | LinkedIn)Marketing & Publications Director Nonprofit Technology Enterprise Network (NTEN)New York, N.Y.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

--

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:   

This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and our book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond)." To learn more about the book and the updated edition that we're publishing in February, visit macslist.org/ebook. One of the most common questions we're asked at Mac's List is this, "How do I get a nonprofit job?" It's a big question, and we hear it from all kinds of people. Recent college graduates, corporate employees who want to switch careers, or government workers who want to continue to serve the public. Like the question the nonprofit sector is big, almost 11 million Americans work for nonprofits in all kinds of jobs, from running soup kitchens to serving Girl Scouts. We don't have all the answers for you today, but we can help you get started.

Joining me as our expert guest this week is Allison Jones. She's the Marketing and Publications Director at NTEN. That stands for Nonprofit Technology Enterprise Network. We also have the Mac's List team Ben Forstag our Managing Director and Cecilia Bianco, our Community Manager, and they have resources and answers to questions about the nonprofit sector. Let's get started and begin by checking with the Mac's List team. Cecilia, Ben, how are you two this week?

Ben Forstag:      

I'm doing awesome.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Doing really good Mac.

Mac Prichard:   

Good. Well let's talk about nonprofits jobs. Now tell me, have either one of you worked in the nonprofit sector?

Ben Forstag:      

I spent 15 years in the nonprofit sector, in Pennsylvania, in Spain, in DC and most recently here in Portland.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay, and do you have one big lesson from that experience you want to share with our listeners about your time in the nonprofit world?

Ben Forstag:      

I think the big thing that I share with people is that a lot of times there's a stereotype that nonprofit careers, you can't do well in them. That you have to be the starving artist of sorts, but I think nonprofits are becoming increasingly professionalized, and you can have a career in which you do well for yourself and do good for the public as well. It's a really rewarding career.

Mac Prichard:   

How about you Cecilia?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I haven't worked for a nonprofit previously, but through my work at Mac's List I've met a lot of people who are in that sector, so I'm pretty familiar with that, and I would agree with Ben, that that's a big misconception that's starting to change.

Mac Prichard:   

I've worked for one nonprofit directly and like you Cecilia worked with a lot of different nonprofits as a vendor and partner, and I have seen a professionalization of the sector throughout my career and it's a good sign to see. Let's turn to Ben, who every week is out there exploring the internet looking for resources you can use, whether it's a blog, a podcast, or other tool. Ben what do you have for us this week?

Ben Forstag:      

So because we're talking about nonprofits this week, I wanted to spend a little time talking about the website Charity Navigator, and how it can be a resource for people who are looking for jobs in the nonprofit sector.

Charity Navigator as I'm sure you know is mostly known for its scoring system for charities, foundations and other registered nonprofits. Each year they review the public filings for thousands of local, regional, and national nonprofits, and they award stars based on each organization's financial viability, transparency, program spending, and other factors. These stars have become quite a big thing in the nonprofit community, as a star rating can have a major impact on potential donors. I know in my own experience, one organization I was in went from three stars to two stars. It raised a lot of questions from our donors about what's going on.

Mac Prichard:   

It's a tool that Charity Navigator often comes up in the media when it releases its information about the percentage of a budget a nonprofit spends on fundraising, and there are organizations out there that spend far too much on development and not enough on services, and that's one of the facts that Charity Navigator tracks.

Ben Forstag:      

I should say that Charity Navigator is not without its challenges. There's some serious questions out there in the media and in the nonprofit community about how exactly they give these ratings out, but for today's purposes this is the big site that people go to for evaluating nonprofits, so we're going to use that as the source. While Charity Navigator's primarily a tool for donors, it can also be very useful for job hunters. You might recall that several weeks ago we talked about the website Glassdoor.com, a website with salary, hiring, and internal culture information about different employers. At the time I mentioned that Glassdoor didn't have a lot of information about nonprofit organizations, particularly smaller nonprofits.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah that's definitely true.

Ben Forstag:      

Yeah and that's a function of a lot of nonprofits tend to be smaller to they have fewer employees and ex employees to fill out Glassdoor evaluations. Well Charity Navigator does have a lot of this information that Glassdoor's missing, giving potential job seekers a great sneak peek into how those organizations operate. They do this by pulling information from each organization's 990 Form, which is a public financial document that nonprofits are required to file each year by the IRS. On Charity Navigator you can find out fairly detailed information on the nonprofit's financial and management history, which is really important when you're looking for a stable workplace. You can also see roughly how much money you spent on programming versus administrative or fundraising expenses as Mac pointed out, and what programs received the most support within the organization.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Ben, can't you get a lot of that information just from the nonprofit's website?

Ben Forstag:      

Good question Cecilia. Sometimes you can. While it's generally a best practice to include this kind of information on an annual report on the company website, not all organizations do this. You know, everyone's trying to put their best foot forward when it comes to their website and their public presence. In general I think the information on Charity Navigator tends to be a bit more impartial and data-driven, omitting a lot of that marketing jargon and cheerleading that you might find on those organization's own website.

You can also get a sense of what the salaries are within a given nonprofit. If you go to the full 990 Form, which is available on Charity Navigator, you can see the organization's annual budget and the salary of top leadership. It's not going to tell you everyone's salary, so don't go looking for what the secretary's making, but from this information you can infer a general salary range for other positions in the organization. For example if the Executive Director is only making $45,000 a year, it's probably unlikely that a Program Director is going to be making the same amount.

This kind of benchmarking I found really valuable when I was looking for nonprofit jobs. I had a real firm minimum salary requirement, and many times the nonprofits I was interested didn't list their salaries on their job postings, and a quick check on Charity Navigator told me if it was worthwhile applying for a particular position in that organization.

If you're looking for nonprofit jobs I'd really encourage you to spend some times exploring the opportunities available on Charitynavigator.com, and I'll have the link in the show notes.

Mac Prichard:   

Great, well thank you Ben. If you have a suggestion for Ben, write him directly and we may share your idea on the show. Ben's address is [email protected]. Now it's time to turn to you, our listeners. Cecilia Bianco our Community Manager is here to answer one of your questions. Cecilia what do you hear from our community this week?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Our question this week is, "How important is volunteer experience when applying for nonprofit jobs?"

We get this question a lot because volunteering, a lot of people don't necessarily want to do it, but it can be really worthwhile. From the people I've talked to, I think volunteer experience can be a bit of a leg up when you're applying for a nonprofit job. When there's a large pool of applicants who are all saying that an organization's cause is their passion. Showing that you've donated your free time towards this cause is definitely going to help you stand out, but the importance of volunteering also depends on what type of work experience you already have. You might have already worked in that nonprofit's area, so volunteering isn't as important because you're already showing that you're passionate enough to pursue a career in it.

What do you two think, do you think volunteering is necessary?

Ben Forstag:      

I don't think it's necessary but I think it's a good idea. I think this is a form of networking that doesn't get employed enough. When you volunteer for an organization you shouldn't do it to get a job, but it certainly gets your name out there and you get to meet other staff members and other people in the community, and in doing so I think you improve your brand and your standing within that community and within that organization, so that if or when a job opening does become available you're a known commodity and someone that they know and trust with that position.

Mac Prichard:   

It's also a way of covering gaps in your resume. You can volunteer for a position at an organization that you want to have experience with to make those contacts, and obviously you do it in order to be of service, but while you look for work having even a part-time position, volunteer position within an organization, gives you a credential you can use to plug those gaps because sometimes, particularly for people mid-career, job searches can take three, six or even nine months.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah definitely. I think if you're unemployed and looking for a nonprofit job, volunteering is a win-win because you're adding to your resume and showing how much you want your work to support a certain cause, and as Ben said it's a great way to meet people who might be able to advocate for you when you go to apply at a certain organization. They might know someone who knows someone who works for your dream nonprofit and it can be really beneficial to volunteer because of this. I know I've heard plenty of stories of this happening in our nonprofit community, so it's definitely a win-win.

Mac Prichard:   

Good. Well thank you Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia please email her. Her address is [email protected].

The segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of "Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond)." We're making the complete Mac's List Guide even better by adding new content and making the book available on multiple e-reader platforms. When we launched the revised version in February 2016, you'll be able to access "Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond)" on your Kindle, Nook, iPad, and other digital devices. You'll also be able for the first time to order a paperback edition. Whatever the format our goal is the same. To give you the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. For more information visit Macslist.org/ebook and sign up for our ebook newsletter. We'll send you publication updates, share exclusive book content, and provide you with special pre-sale prices.

Now let's turn to our guest expert Allison Jones. Allison is passionate about making the world a better place. As a proud nonprofit geek she has built her career in the sector, helping organizations leverage communications to fulfill their missions. Currently Allison is the Marketing and Publications Director at NTEN, and that stands for the Nonprofit Technology Enterprise Network. Before that she worked at Idealist.org where she launched and managed Idealist Careers, a publication for purpose-driven professionals. Allison thank you for joining us.

Allison Jones:   

Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited about this conversation.

Mac Prichard:   

I know our listeners are too. We talked earlier about this in the show. We get this question a lot at Mac's List, how can I get a nonprofit job. With our listeners thinking about that, what do you encourage them to consider when they look at a career in nonprofits?

Allison Jones:   

Sure. My first gut reaction is to say well be more specific, right, because I think a lot of folks when they decide that they want a nonprofit job they usually coming from a place of ... Maybe they have a personal moment, that made them want to enter the social sector so maybe they noticed something in their community, they have something happen in their personal lives, maybe just like, "I want my work to be different," or perhaps they met someone who seemed to have a really awesome career in a nonprofit and it made them think differently about what their own career could be, which are all great starting points, but I think the nonprofit sector is so big that to say that you want a nonprofit job doesn't actually get you very far in terms of finding a job that you want. The first thing I would say is to be a bit more specific.

Mac Prichard:   

That's a great point. What steps have you seen people take to get specific? How do people narrow down on a particular goal?

Allison Jones:   

There are a couple things you can do there. If you're completely new to the sector and you're not quite sure where to start, I actually encourage folks to just look through job descriptions. Get a sense of what's out there by seeing what's out there, and that might sound a little tedious but there's an activity from NYU Wagner where they encourage you to do exactly that, to collect at least 50 job descriptions and then analyze them for patterns. You're drawn to this organization because of it's cause, so you notice that you really like organizations that focus on poverty or the environment or what have you. You're drawn to this job because of the work itself, so perhaps you notice that you really enjoy writing and a lot of the jobs that you point out are jobs that require writing, or even you're drawn to a job because of where it's located. You're passionate about certain areas. Looking for patterns in the things that you're drawn to. If you feel as if you're just completely coming at it with fresh eyes for a new career, I think that's one way to start.

Another way to start is to actually talk to people who seem like they have interesting careers in the nonprofit sector in the form of informational interviews. I give a lot of informational interviews and I've gone on a lot of informational interviews, and they've been really, really helpful for me and my career.

Mac Prichard:   

We're big fans of informational interviews here at Mac's List, and I want to return to your point too about job postings. There are a lot of job boards out there aimed at nonprofit careers. Do you have any favorites that you want to give shout-outs to?

Allison Jones:   

I used to work at Idealist.org.

Mac Prichard:   

One of our favorites.

Allison Jones:   

I was there for three and a half years and even before I started working there that's what I used to find opportunities so definitely Idealist being one of my top favorites.

Mac Prichard:   

Great, and it pains me to say this Allison but I know there are people out there who haven't heard of Mac's List or Idealist.org. Could you tell people about Idealist and why it's such a great place, because we're big fans of it.

Allison Jones:   

Sure. Idealist.org is a global nonprofit that connects people to resources and opportunities in the community they need to take action on causes they care about, so what this means is we're really not well known for our job board, and I haven't checked the stats lately because I don't work there anymore but when I left there were well over 12,000 nonprofit jobs. Actually not just nonprofit jobs but 12,000 jobs in nonprofit social enterprises and government agencies, listed around the world, and there are also thousands of volunteer opportunities, thousands of internships, and if you're curious just about organizations, if you just want to know what kind of organizations are out there doing work in causes that you care about, I think there were over 100,000 organizations using the sites so you could look up profiles of organizations just to get a sense of who's doing what, so it's a really great place to just go and start looking for ways to get involved.

Mac Prichard:   

Great, and to your earlier point it's a great place to find those job postings and begin to identify those posts, look for those patterns. Any other sites you want to give a shout-out to before we get back to informational interviews?

Allison Jones:   

Other then Idealist, this may sound really strange but I've heard good things about finding opportunities on Craigslist. It's another way, particularly for smaller cities I think that tends to be a go-to for a lot of people posting opportunities.

Mac Prichard:   

Good. One other suggestion that comes to my mind is I know every state has a nonprofit association. Sometimes they have different names. Many of them do operate job boards.

Allison Jones:   

Yes. Also add to that NTEN also has a job board. Particularly if you're interested in opportunities in tech. I think one other way is to look for organizations that have a very specific focus, either in a cause or a profession, so if you're interested in social work looking at social work associations, if you're interested in technology looking at NTEN, that kind of thing. Organizations that act as associations or gatherings for folks in specific places. They tend to also list opportunities as well.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay good, so people have taken the time, they've looked at job postings, they've identified positions, they've discovered those patterns that you've described, now they're ready to go do informational interviews. What are your top three informational interview tips for people who either want a career in the nonprofit sector or want to make a mid career switch into the nonprofit world?

Allison Jones:   

I think the first is to just prepare. Thinking of what you want to get out of the interview and craft some really great questions. For example, my favorite question is, "What do you wish someone had told you before you got into this field? Where were you before you got to this organization and this position?" Finding out about people's career paths I think is a great way to let you know the different ways that people arrived in their work, and that can give you insights in terms of the kind of skills that you need to brush up on. If you're having these informational interviews and everyone's telling you for example, "Yeah if you want this role grad school is really important," then you know that perhaps grad school is a step that you might want to take. For me I think these informational interviews are also very surprising in the sense that in quite a few fields people have various pathways they take, and I think that that's something that makes the nonprofit sector somewhat unique in the sense that there's no ... If you want to work in a nonprofit sector this is the specific path that you must take.

Of course that varies depending upon certain roles, but I think you'll in informational interviews and the kinds of roles that you're looking for you can really get a sense of the different pathways to finding a great career and getting insight as far as what people in your chosen profession have to do, what certain kinds of organizations are looking for, and their candidates. Preparing for informational interviews to get a sense of pathways and honestly what it takes to excel in a certain role is a really great way to make a use of them.

Mac Prichard:   

One question I hear from listeners when I encourage them to do informational interviews is they say to me, "How do I know that was a successful meeting? What should I expect to get out of that conversation?" What do you tell people when they ask you that question Allison?

Allison Jones:   

I think you get what you put into it, but I think for me, when I've gone on informational interviews, I tend to go in with a very specific need, and specific questions, and I feel successful at the end if I'm able to take another step towards what I came to the informational interviews for. For example, you never go into a informational interview asking for a job. That's just sort of ... You can ask about people's paths, what it takes to build a career in this field, what hiring managers might look for, but it's generally known that you don't ask for a job right then and there. What I found in my experiences of going on informational interviews is I felt comfortable ... I usually end up with clarity or a way to take action on something in my career. That has looked like, "Oh I thought I wanted to work at this kind of organization but I actually don't anymore," or, "I thought that I wanted to go to grad school but I don't anymore," or, "I've just learned there are plenty of opportunities in this particular field that I didn't consider before and I want to add that to my search list." It gives me clarity and I think that a successful informational interview gives you clarity and makes it easier for you to take another step toward where you want to be.

Mac Prichard:   

I think you're making an important point because often people tell me they want to stay open to all options and one of the benefits I see from informational interviews is it provides that clarity, that direction, and gives you insights into what doors you should continue to knock on and those that maybe that you want to keep closed.

Allison Jones:   

Exactly.

Mac Prichard:   

I bet you get this question a lot about profit jobs, I hear it to. What about salaries? What expectations should people have if they want a career in the nonprofit world, or they're thinking about moving into that sector?

Allison Jones:   

I think a couple things. One is to know ... How do I say this. I think at first it starts with you being clear about what your non-negotiables are, right. If there's a limit, if there's a minimum that you must have in order to take care of yourself it's okay to turn down jobs if they don't reach that minimum or they don't meet that minimum. The reason why I bring that up first is because I've found that people tend to be a bit more, you know if they're committed to a cause and want to make a difference they tend to overestimate their ability to deal with a certain salary, and they end up getting very frustrated, especially when you're working on something that doesn't necessarily have an end in sight. If you're working on eradicating poverty you may have milestones and goals over time, but obviously you're not going to see the end of poverty at anytime over the course of working at an organization. Being clear about what you need in terms of salary and in terms of other benefits is very important.

I also encourage folks to think, and I just mentioned this, to think in terms of total compensation. If the salary issue comes up and its not what you'd like it to be, it meets what you need but not what you want perhaps, in my experience I've found folks are very open to different kinds of benefits and to just having that conversation. All that being said I actually believe that you can have a great salary in the nonprofit sector, you just have to look and you have to ask, and that can be really tough. You can do research. There are some websites like Salary.com. You can look at an organization's 990s and 990s I think only tell you folks who are making over $100,000 at the organization if I'm not mistaken, but that can still give you a sense of, if you are going for an executive position or if you want to get a sense of the top salaries that does give you a good picture of what that looks like. There are ways to get a sense of what salary options are in terms of your research but definitely going in with a sense of what you need is very important.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. What are some of those other benefits besides salary that you can get from the nonprofit world or that you should ask for? Again, I think people are reluctant to ask for things and when they're in a negotiation for a position that's when they have that opportunity and I think they're either reluctant to step up and ask or they don't know what to request. What sorts of things can people ask for in addition to money?

Allison Jones:   

Vacation days. And sick days, I've definitely seen that. Any other ... Help with transportation, so if folks depending on where you live, covering gas or your public transportation cost is another thing. Professional development support and resources. What funding is on the table for you to go to conferences and get the PD that you need to excel in your work. There are a bunch of different things and you can definitely do some research on that, but just again the point is to be very clear about what's most important to you.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. People come to nonprofit work often because they have a calling or they want to make a difference. They feel a sense of purpose, but the job search basics still matter don't they?

Allison Jones:   

Absolutely, absolutely.

Mac Prichard:   

What are the ABCs that you can't ignore, whether you're looking for nonprofit work or any kind of job?

Allison Jones:   

I think first of all following directions is really important and it's funny, when I worked at Idealist, I was able to talk to quite a few hiring managers and I hired some folks from my team as well, and it's surprising how many folks don't follow directions, whether it be, "Answer these three questions in your cover letter," and people just aren't doing it. Stuff like that. Not following directions is not just a matter of the hiring manager's trying to test you, but also it's more of a matter of this actually helps us read applications and select candidates easier and faster if you follow directions. Making sure you do what's being asked of you. Tailoring the cover letter and the resume to the job itself and that in and of itself can be a bit of a conversation but what that really means is you're looking at the job description, what are they looking for the candidate to do, what kind of candidate are they looking for, not just in terms of qualifications but also in terms of attributes and characteristics. Are they saying they need someone who can thrive in a fast-paced environment, or are they saying that they need someone who's collaborative? Being able to indicate not only your successes as they pertain to the needs of the job but also your ability to fit in in terms of the attributes and characteristics that a person will need to do in that work.

Focusing on your accomplishments. This is something that I've seen in a lot of resumes where it's just like, "I worked at X place and I did X things," versus, "I worked at X place and did X things which resulted in increasing revenue, decreasing turn-over," whatever have you, but making sure it attaches to some key accomplishments. Being clear about why you want to work there should be in your cover letter. For organizations that are mission-driven, who their entire purpose is to have an impact I think being clear about why you want to work in that cause, why with that organization, and not just because it seems like a cool place to be but really something specific is important. Finally just proofreading. Error free, easy to read, decent margins, those are also really important things.

Mac Prichard:   

We're coming to the end of our interview, but there is one question I want to raise that we get a lot. It's from people who have been in the private sector for five, ten, fifteen years and they want to make the transition into the nonprofit world. They tell us they struggle, they're not sure how to describe what they've done and make it appealing to nonprofit managers and hiring managers. How have you seen people address that Allison?

Allison Jones:   

In a few ways, and first I actually want to ... There's someone in particular who I just thought of, Heather Krasna. She's a dean at Columbia University School of Public Health. She is brilliant at this sort of thing, really working with sector-switchers so I definitely recommend her as a resource.

Mac Prichard:   

Let's get a URL from you and we'll put her in the show notes.

Allison Jones:   

As far as just making the sector switch, first I think networking is really important. I think having people who can give you an inside look as to what's required to work in a nonprofit because I think in some ways there is some suspicion of private sector folks. Are you coming here because you want a break? Are you coming here because you think it will be easier? There's some suspicion I think from nonprofit folks. Not all the time and not in every case, but just the wondering of ... You need to be able to answer that question of why. Why are you making this switch and being very honest about that. I think making language tweaks in your resume, cover letter, so instead of saying things like, "client or customer," you might want to say, "community or constituent," or something like that where it makes the most sense to do so.

The transferable skills are important as well, so things like if the job you're going for requires you to be a great public speaker, that's something that you can call out in your resume and cover letter as things you've done in different contexts so it's a skill that you don't necessarily need to have developed in the nonprofit sector. You could have developed it anywhere. But you want to make sure you pull that out or call that out rather in your materials as something you have done in different contexts and they've still resulted in great things. Finally getting nonprofit experience where you can. Obviously finding a full time job is awesome and ideal, but if you've been on a board, if you've volunteered, if you've offered your consulting services pro bono, those are all experiences that are valuable because they indicate that you've done some work before trying to apply for a job, that you have some experience with a nonprofit sector and that you're not just coming at it blind.

Mac Prichard:   

Great. Well I think that's the perfect place to stop. Thank you Allison so much for joining us.

Allison Jones:   

Oh no problem. Thanks for having me.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. You can find Allison on Twitter. Her Twitter handle is @ajlovesya, and she also has a LinkedIn profile. We'll include links to both her Twitter account and her LinkedIn page in the show notes. Thank you Allison Jones.

Allison Jones:   

Thank you.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay we're back with the Mac's List team. Cecilia, Ben, what are some of the key takeaways from our conversation with Allison?

Cecilia Bianco: 

What I took away was that no matter where you're at informational interviews in the nonprofit world are the best way to get connected, and I think she made a lot of good points about how to go about that and why it's so important, because we know from talking to the Mac's List community a lot of people are getting jobs through meeting people in the community and the easiest way to do that is through informational interviews.

Mac Prichard:   

Good. Ben how about you?

Ben Forstag:      

I liked her point about how important it is to follow instructions in a job posting. It reminded me of a job I used to work at where as part of the hiring process they would put in slightly anachronistic rules into that job posting and one of the ways they weeded out if the applicant was detail oriented, was, did they follow the rule. Things like, "Put this as the subject line in the email when you email in your resume and application." They wouldn't even open up an email unless it had the right subject line in it. I think it's important to really read through the application, make sure you're following all the instructions they give, because there is a reason behind those instructions and oftentimes it's just to winnow out the numbers of applicants.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah, I thought she had good practical suggestions both on informational interviews and the application process that would apply not only to the nonprofit world but the private sector as well.

Ben Forstag:      

Yeah, definitely.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah, so good stuff. Well thank you both, and thank you our listeners. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime you can visit us at Macslist.org where you can sign up for our free newsletter with more then 100 new jobs every week, and if you like what you hear on the show please help us by leaving a review and a rating at iTunes. This helps others discover the show and helps us help more job seekers. Thank you for listening.

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Millennials, the 54 million Americans born after 1980, now account for more than a third of the workforce in the United States. Perhaps more than any generation, millennials stand out for wanting meaningful, purpose-driven careers. And they have brought new ideas about decision-making, management style, and work-life balance into the workforce.

Millennials face challenges, too. Many started work in the middle of the Great Recession, which may result in up-to $100,000 of “lost” wages during their lifetime. Those lucky enough to find jobs were often overqualified. And there’s a stereotype that millennials are high maintenance and overly demanding.

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Paul Angone, an author, career coach, and advocate for millennial workers. Paul has dedicated himself to helping millennials overcome their fear of insignificance and find purposeful work. He believes that the secret to a great job is building your “signature sauce”--aligning your strengths, skills, and values around a need or problem that can be solved.

In this 34-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Paul Angone (@PaulAngone | LinkedIn)Founder, All Groan UpAuthor, All Groan Up: Searching For Self, Faith, and a Freaking Job! and101 Secrets For Your TwentiesSan Diego, Calif.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

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Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:   

This is Find Your Dream Job, a podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and our book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). To learn more about the book and the updated edition we're publishing in February, come to our website. Just visit macslist.org/ebook.

Millennials, the 54 million Americans born after 1980, who came of age in the New Millennium, now account for more than a third of the workforce in the United States. Perhaps more than any generation, Millennials stand out for wanting meaningful careers, and lives that balance career and family. They are also the first generation digital natives. Millennials face challenges, too. Many started work in the middle of the Great Recession, and entering a labor market during a recession can mean up to a hundred thousand dollars in lost wages during a lifetime. Those lucky enough to find jobs were often overqualified, and there's a stereotype out there of Millennials as high maintenance workers who are overly concerned with titles and status.

This week on Find Your Dream Job, we're talking about Millennials and the search of meaningful work. Joining us for our interview segment is Paul Angone. He's an expert on Millennials and the author of 101 Secrets for Your Twenties. Ben Forstag has a book for us that any generation can use to map out a career for meaningful work, and Cecilia Bianco has a question from a new college graduate just beginning a career.

But first, let's check in with the Mac's List team. I think we have all three generations represented here.

Ben Forstag:   

I think you might be right.

Mac Prichard: 

For the benefit of our listeners, do people want to self-identify?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I'm a Millennial.

Mac Prichard:  

Okay, good. Ben?

Ben Forstag:  

I was born in '79, so I'm right at the cusp between Generation X and Millennial.

Mac Prichard:  

I'm a solid Boomer. I was born in 1958, so we have good representation here.

Let's move on with our topic this week. Ben, you're out there every week looking around the internet and what have you found for us this week?

Ben Forstag:      

Mac, can you hear this sound?

Mac Prichard:  

That's very analog of you.

Ben Forstag:

It is, yes. I'm sure they have this book in digital format as well, but this week I'm talking about the physical book, and it's called Answering the Three Career Questions: Your Lifetime Career Management System, and this was a book that was recommended to me by Russell Terry, one of our long time listeners. The book is by author Bruce Hazen, and it's a really interesting read. The author has a very clear goal with this book, and it's to help people avoid the one-job-in-a-row trap. Too often, people see their career as simply the narrative of all their jobs, one after another, and you sometimes see that in their resume. Hazen says that people should really see their career as something different than the sum of their jobs. It's really a holistic narrative about what you find important, what you find interesting, engaging and satisfying as a professional. In a sense, he's flipping this on its head. The career should dictate what jobs you have and not vice versa.

This is a concept I know we've talked a lot about in the podcast. In episode 2, Dawn Rasmussen called your career "the stream that runs beneath your current job", and even some of the practical tips we've provided around branding, resume building and interviewing, you can see this recurring theme of your career being a driving narrative behind your professional life.

In his book, Bruce Hazen frames career management around three questions that professionals should regularly ask themselves. Those questions are: One, is it time to move up? In other words, do you need a development strategy to progress in your current organization? He makes a really interesting distinction between promotion and progression here. Promotion is about moving up in an established organizational hierarchy; getting a promotion essentially, while progressing is about improving your own subjective satisfaction with your job. He has this great quote: Up has dimension and not just direction, so moving up could mean adding complexity or authority to your work, enriching the job you've got, a lateral move to a job you like more, changing location, or even in some cases, moving down the hierarchy to a job that you prefer.

Mac Prichard:   

I think as people think about their goals, it's important to remember titles alone aren't going to bring you satisfaction. Sometimes I think people think the only change that's a good one is one that has you moving up the hierarchy of your organization, but sometimes you might have other goals. I think for example, when I was working in the governor's office, I had an opportunity to take a position in politics with a group of state legislators and I turned that down to work for the State Purchasing Bureau. People said, "Why would you do that? Isn't that a step down?", and it was actually what I needed at that time, which was steady work, well-paying work, and it was a great opportunity for the year that I did that. Eventually it led me to another position in communications, which has been my career, but people I think here, Ben, shouldn't get hung up on just always moving up and up and up.

Ben Forstag: 

Yeah, and I know in my own career, there have been a couple of times when I've taken a step down the hierarchy, or at least as it looked on paper or as it played out in my paycheck. At the time, a lot of people scratched their heads and I even questioned that, but in the long run, that ended up being the best possible move I could make because I ended up liking the new job more, and it helped me transition into new fields that I might not have been able to do so otherwise.

The second question here is, is it time to move out? Is it time to move to a job that better aligns with your interests, passions and needs? Do you need a strategy to transition into this new organization or field? The question here is really fit. Does your current job or organization fit with who you are as a person? Hazen provides different tools to ascertain fit, with a lot of tests around measuring work values and ethics and things like that. He also outlines strategies for professionals who realize their current position isn't a good fit for who they are.

Cecilia Bianco: 

I think this one's great and it would be so good if people would sit down and do these tests before they start looking for a job and interviewing, because if they know what they want as far as fit, they're going to have a much easier job search.

Ben Forstag: 

Yeah, I think fit is so important, and I know I've been in jobs where I just haven't been a good fit for the organization and it wasn't my fault or the organization's fault, it just wasn't an alignment. If you can get clear about what a good fit is before you start the job, that's clearly a benefit.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah.

Ben Forstag:    

The third question here is, is it time to adapt your style for greater success? That is are you in the right position, but not getting the right traction or the right results in that position? This question is really aimed at people who have the right technical skills to succeed, but need a new approach to their colleagues or to their organization. Hazen shares a couple of different strategies for using your skills in interacting with others, all with the intent of improving your productivity and satisfaction with your current job.

When I talked to our listener Russell about this, I asked him why exactly he liked this book so much, and this is what he said: "I found it helpful to break things down to three basic questions and to emphasize that through our careers, we keep coming back to these same three questions."

I really, really liked what Russell said here, and I totally agree with him. I think the strong point about this book is that it does bring all these questions back into the center of the conversation over and over again, so I strongly suggest to anyone who is looking at career management tools, check out this book. Again, the book is called Answering the Three Career Questions: Your Lifetime Career Management System, and it's by author Bruce Hazen, and we will have a link to the book in our show notes.

Mac Prichard: 

Thank you, Ben, and thank you, Russell, for that suggestion. Do you have a book or a podcast or website that has been helpful to you in your job search or managing your career? Let Ben know about it. You can write him directly, and his email address is [email protected].

Now let's turn to you, our listeners. Cecilia Bianco, our community manager is here, and she answers one of your questions. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, our question this week is how can I stand out as a recent college graduate? I personally think the best way to stand out as a recent grad is to have an established and strong personal brand, so your goal should be, if an employer looks online for you, are they going to view you as a professional or a college student? Obviously, the goal is to look like a professional, even if you haven't graduated yet. Are they going to be able to tell what your career interests are based on what they find about you online?

Something I was required to do in my college program before I graduated was to create a personal website that showcased my experience and my goals for the future, and this was a great way for me and my classmates to really stand out. It made us look a bit more polished and prepared to start job searching because it forced us to figure out the type of job and industry that we could realistically apply for and have a good chance of getting. Beyond just building your personal website, your social media profiles, your resume and cover letter and your business cards should all fit with this personal brand that you're building for yourself.

One girl in my program I was very impressed with. She created a logo for herself and used it to build a template for her website application material and it really made her stand out. She had no trouble getting interviews because her branded materials made her look like a seasoned professional rather than a college student or a recent grad. Mac and Ben, what are your thoughts on how college grads can stand out?

Ben Forstag:  

I think the number one way that anyone can stand out, whether you're a college grad or an established professional, is good writing. It is so rare to find someone who can write concisely and clearly nowadays, and anyone who does that is a real valued commodity I think in almost any organization, so whether that writing shows in your portfolio or the writing sample you submit as part of your application or even the language you use on your website, the more you can showcase good writing ability, the more you'll stand out with employers.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, that's definitely true, and building a personal website is one way to get your writing and your message about yourself really clear.

Ben Forstag:  

Yeah, and definitely good writing is part of the brand that you present about yourself.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah.

Mac Prichard:  

Yeah, I think good writing is always effective, no matter what your age or what stage you are in your career. For recent college graduates, it's a tactical tip, but one thing that can make them stand out I think, Cecilia, is just having a business card. It's old-fashioned, but it fits in with your earlier point about having a strong personal brand. When I meet recent college graduates, often they don't have cards, but they either ask for mine or would I offer them a card. There's an opportunity there to be on equal footing by sharing a card of their own. It's easy to do and is a way of distinguishing yourself.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, definitely. The people in my program, since we all had cards, when we would get sent out to networking events, we would talk about how some of the employers, they would be shocked when we handed over a business card, and we hadn't graduated yet, so that's definitely really important.

Ben Forstag:   

Two points about business cards: One is they do make you feel like a professional when you have them and you start handing them out. You feel like hey, I've made it. The other one is you can get business cards really cheaply online, like ten dollars will buy you five hundred business cards, so it's definitely a good investment and a really cheap investment as well.

Mac Prichard: 

Yeah, and you can get them for free. There's services that do that, but they're branded by the company that produces them, and I think spend the five or ten dollars it takes to get one with your own personal brand.

Ben Forstag: 

Definitely.

Mac Prichard: 

Okay, well, thanks, Cecilia. That was a great question. If you have a question for Cecilia, you can email her. Her address is [email protected]. I noticed today on Twitter, Cecilia, one of our listeners was tweeting at both of us, and she said that she'd sent you several questions.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Oh, yeah, I already got her questions.

Mac Prichard:   

Terrific. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of Land Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond). We're making the complete Mac's List guide even better. We're adding new content and we're making the book available on multiple e-reader platforms. In February, we'll launch a new version of the book, and you'll for the first time be able to access it on Kindle, Nook, iPad and other digital devices, and for the first time, you'll be able to get a paperback edition. Thank you, Ben, so whatever the format, our goal's the same. We want you to have the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. For more information, go to our website. Visit macslist.org/ebook. You can sign up for our e-book newsletter, and when you do that, you'll get publication updates, exclusive book content, and we'll provide you with special pre-sale prices.

Now let's turn to this week's guest, Paul Angone. Paul is a leading voice to and for millennials. He loves helping millennials uncover their unique signature sauce to find where their passion, purpose and career collide.

Paul is a best selling author of 101 Secrets For Your Twenties and All Groan Up. He's also a national speaker and the creator of AllGroanUp.com, which has been read by millions of people in more than 190 countries. Paul, thanks for joining us today.

Paul Angone:     

Oh, thank you for having me. It's an honor being here.

Mac Prichard:  

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. Now Paul, millennials stand out for a number of reasons, but what is most striking I think about this generation is their desire for work that has purpose. Why do you think it's such an important value for millennials?

Paul Angone:    

Yeah, that's a great question. You're right. When I look at all the research I've done over the years, all the blog articles I've written, all the emails I've received from millennials, really all over the world. I don't think this is just solely in the United States where we're at, but I think this is worldwide. If I distill it down I think one of millennials' greatest fears is insignificance. Is this feeling of I'm doing work that has no point and my life is kind of meaningless. I'm just showing up everyday going through the motions.

I think millennials are truly at their core for the most part really driven by trying to find this meaningful work. Trying to find purpose and trying to do something that feels like man, this really means something important to me and I'm not just getting a paycheck or working for the corner office. Millennials really aren't wired that way. They have different motivators than just a pay hike. They really want to find work that is drenched in purpose.

Mac Prichard: 

How do you see millennials get clear about that purpose? What do people who are successful at chasing their purpose do?

Paul Angone:  

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? That's the tough one. It can become very difficult. I know for myself it was a very frustrating process in a sense because I loved hearing about I want to follow my passion, I want to do work I'm passionate about, but I was really struggling with how do you figure that out. How do you find what you're passionate about? I didn't have a clue.

I was going through college doing all the right things, getting the good grades, trying to pick the right major, pick the right internship, taking these steps. I felt like if I just kept taking the right steps up there somewhere was going to be success. Up there somewhere was going to be my passion. Yet when I got up there I still felt as lost as ever. Maybe even more lost because I didn't know what my passion was.

For me, and I think for a lot of millennials going through the same kind of process, is that it is a process. It takes time and it takes one thing in particular that I don't think a lot of us think about or want to think about, but I think one of the really big clarifiers to finding your passion is failure. I didn't really want to hear that or understand that when I was searching for my passion, but I think failure becomes that great clarifier.

Because when you've failed at something but yet you want to keep doing it, well then you've found something, there's something there that you're really truly passionate about.

Mac Prichard: 

Let's explore that because I think that's one thing that many of us are taught to avoid at all costs is failure.

Paul Angone:     

Exactly. Yeah.

Mac Prichard:  

Why do you think it makes such a big difference for people who are trying to find their purpose?

Paul Angone:

I think it's easy to say that you're passionate about something or you're excited about something that you are achieving a lot of success in. Or maybe you're getting accolades for or getting good grades or you're getting money to do it, but when those externals start going away or in my case I really wanted to write a book.

I was passionate about wanting to help specifically twenty-somethings that were struggling in kind of the what now of life after college. Yet for years I couldn't get a publisher to say yes to anything I was writing. I couldn't get people to return emails. I thought my email was broken at one point because I couldn't get anybody to return an email of mine.

I quickly realized that I was truly passionate about this topic, about helping twenty-somethings, about trying to write and speak to them because even through all the no's and rejections I still kept showing up and I kept writing and I kept pursuing it and hammering away at it. I really figured out that that was something I was truly passionate about.

Where other ideas that I had, other pursuits, business ideas, things that I did when I hit those first couple of obstacles like all of us will, I quickly quit. I quit that dream. I went another way because really I wasn't in it for the right reasons. I wasn't truly passionate about that endeavor. Like I was when I was writing and trying to really reach twenty-somethings.

Mac Prichard: 

Okay, so there's a big difference between enthusiasms and passion. Tell us how can you figure out what is your passion. Does it require failure or is there a shortcut?

Paul Angone:  

Well, I think we'd all be lying to ourselves if we thought failure wasn't a part of it. You know?

Mac Prichard: 

Okay.

Paul Angone: 

Just like any good entrepreneur, and I've actually tried to infuse more of this in my lifestyle, I never thought of myself as an entrepreneur before, but I've kind of become and entrepreneur through circumstances. I'm trying to develop more of what I call an entrepreneurial mindset. I think what entrepreneurs are really good at and what they understand is that failure is just that learning process and when they release products even in the business realm they beta test products. They release version 1.0.

Basically they release something that they know is not complete, that they know is not perfect, that they know in some respect will fail and that's kind of the point because they know that they'll learn so much through the process and the feedback and the test groups and those kinds of things that when they create version 2.0 it's going to be better.

I think for all of us, whether we're an entrepreneur or not, when you're pursuing something and you feel like yeah, this is something. I feel alive when I'm pursuing this. I feel passionate, these words that we say. It's not having that fear that you're going to fail. Because the possibility for greatness and embarrassment both exist in the same space. You really can't have one without the other.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. For millennials who want to pursue their passion, and I meet many every day who do, they should expect fear and that failure will be part of that process. It's a good feedback mechanism. It shows you that you're on the right path particularly if you persist and you keep getting up even when you're knocked down.

Now, once people have figured out they need to follow that passion and be persistent about it, what are some of the other career challenges you see for millennials?

Paul Angone:

Yeah and I think following your passion and pursuing that, it's such a big overwhelming word.

Mac Prichard:   

It is, yeah.

Paul Angone:     

I even have to break it down. That's why I love talking about this metaphor of finding your signature sauce because it gives me a great mental image of what I think the metaphor looks like. When I talk about finding your signature sauce I mean the blend of ingredients that are coming together within each person to create that kind of flavor, to create that passion, to create that signature sauce that they want to serve to the world so to speak.

I think even in this idea of finding your passion, I think we can unpack that even more for millennials or for really anybody and break down I think some key ingredients that go into that. For one of those as millennials are pursuing their career and trying to find jobs that align with that, one I think it's really a simple way is finding something that your strengths and your skills align with.

I think for a lot of us we become passionate about something and we want to keep pursuing it when we feel like we're good at it, when we have some skill sets that resonate with that, that we have some strengths that we really lend to this arena that makes us feel good when we're doing it because we're achieving some sort of success in that endeavor.

It doesn't have to be all about failure, you know? There is the skills and strengths that are a part of that. Then another crucial ingredient I think that aligns with that is your values.

Mac Prichard:

Lets talk about values and the difference they can make, Paul.

Paul Angone:

Yeah. Yeah, to make it personal for me and when I started realizing this is I felt like a strength of mine, and this can be up for debate and your listeners can debate this if they want, but I felt a strength of mine was communication. I felt like I loved speaking, I loved writing, I loved communicating ideas.

I always thought I should try to do a sales job because then I'd be in front of people, I'd be speaking, I'd be using that strength of communication. Yet I took a couple sales jobs and I was absolutely terrible as a salesman. I was just terrible and I hated it. I didn't enjoy it. I started realizing that I had a value of being authentic. Authenticity was a really crucial value of mine.

Actually in a couple sales jobs when I felt like I was selling something that I didn't really believe in and I felt like I was being inauthentic it actually kind of undercut my strength. My strength was no longer that strong because my value was more important to me. Really it was that value of authenticity aligning with my strength of communication and then that was where my sweet spot was. When I really get passionate about something like helping people, helping twenty-somethings, giving them hope and truth and hilarity, I get excited about that because I really believe in it. It really ties in with my value.

Mac Prichard:  

Okay, so I want to move onto some other topics, but before we leave this idea of the secret sauce and the ingredients, you talked about the importance of skills and strengths and recognizing values. Are there one or two other key ingredients you want to share with people?

Paul Angone:    

Yeah, I think another really big one that was really the driving force behind me pursuing and pushing through obstacles is I think people when they find a passion and when they talk about something they're passionate about, a lot of the times it directly relates to a need or a problem that they really want to fix. We see needs and problems very differently depending on our background, our story, where we're at, the way were raised. All the different intricacies that make us us.

Even you and I mac, we might see problems and needs in a very different way. I think for all of us, when you're pursuing something that is bigger than yourself, and it doesn't have to be huge. You don't have to be changing the world here. Maybe it is, but maybe it's even a problem that you see in your current job. Maybe you see something that can be optimized and could run smoother.

Or maybe it is that you see homeless people in your community and you see that as a huge need that you want to do something about. I think sometimes when we take our strengths and our skills and we take our values and then we align those with really serving or trying to solve a need or a problem, man, I think that will push you through more obstacles than anything. That's really what my story was about was pursuing a need and a problem where I felt like there was a lot of people that needed this information and needed kind of this hope and insight.

Even if I was getting rejected I felt like this is such a big issue, I'm going to keep doing it because if I'm not going to do it, who else is? I have to keep hammering away at this. I think something will work out.

Mac Prichard:  

I think that's excellent advice both from a strategic point of view, but for job seekers in general because when employers are looking for help they've got a problem. They have a need that has to be addressed. Understanding that need and knowing how your strengths and your skills can help solve that problem I find puts candidates who can do that at the front of the crowd. So excellent advice Paul.

Paul Angone:

Exactly.

Mac Prichard: 

Let's talk specifically about millennials and maybe some tactile things. Is there one thing that you recommend every millennials do to get a better job? Or just a job.

Paul Angone:    

Yeah. Yeah, there's so much nowadays and I guess I'll hone in on one thing. Typically when we're talking about the job search and all this it can be very overwhelming, but we all know that a lot of job opportunities, we've seen the stats, they'll come through networking or through relationships. I know for myself, networking was always challenging for me because again, it's kind of that value of authenticity, but I think a lot of millennials feel this way where it can kind of feel inauthentic.

Or you're going to a networking event and maybe you feel like that used car salesman that's pushing your business card to everybody and trying to get an opportunity or trying to make a pitch, your elevator speech so that you can get that job. Really for me, when I started thinking about it more as what I call relation-shipping, so not networking per se, but relation-shipping. Why I call it that is because I feel like when you're focused on building just relationships and giving to people and adding value and when you're meeting people you're not just pitching them on your elevator speech about how amazing you are, but you're just asking them questions about how amazing they are for the first five minutes. You don't say anything about yourself.

That becomes such a more effective way to build relationships, but also in a turn, a byproduct of that is people like you more. They want to help you. Now when they have a job opportunity maybe they think about your first because people love being able to talk about themselves. If you can ask them good questions and focus more on relation-shipping, building value added relationships, man, I think that's really going to set you apart instead of talking about yourself and being a me monster at a networking event.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. I think that goes back to your earlier point, Paul about thinking about the needs of others and their problems and how you can help solve them.

Paul Angone:     

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mac Prichard:   

Not thinking just about your own needs.

Paul Angone:   

Exactly.

Mac Prichard: 

Yeah. Well, your first book was 101 Secrets For Your Twenties. Can you do a lightning round of those secrets for us?

Paul Angone:

Oh sure. Yeah, there's 101 of them so it's always hard to pick my favorites. I think one of them that has resonated with a lot of people is to watch out for what I call the new OCD. Which it's not the OCD as we typically think of, but it's obsessive comparison disorder. I think for a lot of millennials especially this is so prevalent nowadays, especially through social media.

I think for any of us that is going through transition, that is maybe trying to change jobs or you feel like well, I'm not doing my passion right now. I'm working in a coffee shop or I'm selling insurance. I'm not really that excited about my life. It can become very hard when you're looking at social media and you're looking at the perceived amazing-ness of everybody else's lives and what we're showcasing on social media.

Which isn't always the most accurate truth that I think most of us know, but it doesn't feel that way sometimes. Watch out for what I call obsessive comparison disorder. Because if you're always measuring yourself up to the images that people are putting up on Instagram or are on Facebook, you're always going to feel lacking or you're always going to feel like I'm not enough. I think that's a really big one.

Mac Prichard:  

Okay. Excellent advice. We're coming to the end of our interview, Paul. Tell me, what's next for you? What do you have coming up?

Paul Angone:  

Yeah, for me I'm really excited actually about an online course that I've started called Finding Your Signature Sauce. I just took my first group of students through it just now and it's been amazing to be able to walk through this process with people and go on a deeper level than just through blogs or books, but actually have a personal relationship and get to know a lot of people.

That's probably the thing that I'm most excited about right now is just refining that and really helping people through that process of finding your signature sauce and all that entails.

Mac Prichard: 

Great. Well thank you, Paul. Tell our listeners how they can find you online. Where can they learn more about you, your books and your work?

Paul Angone:    

Yeah, they can find me at my main website is AllGroanUp.com and groan is spelled like you're groaning in pain, All Groan Up. I like to say that it's pun-derful, is my go to joke. Yeah, All Groan Up. They can find me on Twitter at Paul Angone, A-N-G-O-N-E or they can find me at SignatureSauce.com. Any of those websites or through Twitter. Reach out if you have questions. Id love to connect with you.

Mac Prichard:   

Great and we'll be sure to include those links in the show notes. Thanks for joining us this week, Paul.

Paul Angone: 

Thank you, Mac.

Mac Prichard:  

Well, we're back with Cecilia and Ben. Tell me, what do you think we're the most important points you heard Paul make?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I really liked his point about how to tell what your real passions are. He mentioned that if you fail at something and you keep doing it because you enjoy it so much, that's how you can tell that you're passionate about it. Following that I think is really key when you're a millennial trying to find the career you want.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. I identified with that too. In my 20s and 30s I worked on a lot of election campaigns. I worked on a lot of losing campaigns and I kept showing up every election cycle. We won some, but I was so passionate about that work and the opportunity it offered to make a difference I kept signing up for campaigns even when we lost.

Ben Forstag:      

I liked his point about finding a problem that needs to be fixed. I know for me personally that resonates because I find the most enjoyment in my work when there is this problem. It doesn't need to be a giant problem. It could be how to increase the open rates on an email for example, but having that problem to explore and to test things out, that really animates a lot of where I find enjoyment in work.

Mac Prichard:  

Good. I think that was good advice not only for millennials, but for any generation. Well, thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime visit us at MacsList.org where you can sign up for our free newsletter with more than 100 new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show you can help us by leaving a review and a rating at iTunes. This helps other job seekers discover the show. It helps us help more people. Thank you for listening.

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When you hear the phrase “technology sector” you probably think of multi-billion dollar companies like Google, Apple, or Facebook. But you don’t have to be in Silicon Valley to work in tech. There are opportunities across the globe, both in offices and in working at home. It is one of the fastest growing labor sectors, and the jobs pay above average salaries.

And it’s not just for startup founders, engineers, or coders. The experiences, skills and values that serve you in one field--whether it’s marketing, sales, communications, HR or anything else--can be used in the diverse tech field.

This week on Find Your Dream Job, Mac chats with Albert Qian a high-tech digital marketing and product marketing manager, and founder of the tech-centered job community, Albert’s List. Albert has helped professionals around the country find rewarding work in the technology space. In this episode, he shares tips on how you can make the jump into big tech.

In this 34-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Albert Qian (@albertqian | LinkedIn)Founder, Albert’s ListAuthor, The Social Media EcosystemOrange County, Calif.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:

This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and by our book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. To learn more about the book and the updated edition that we're publishing in February, visit macslist.org/eBook.

Thanks for joining us today. When you hear the phrase "technology sector" you probably think about multi-million dollar companies like Google, Apple, or Amazon. You don't have to be in Silicon Valley or Seattle to work in tech.

It's no wonder many people move to these places to work for technology companies, however. This sector grows faster than the rest of the economy and the jobs pay above average salaries, but there are opportunities across the globe, not just California or Washington state.

It's a field not just for startup founders, engineers, or coders. This week on Find Your Dream Job, we're talking about tech jobs. Ben Forstag has an online site you can use to find the highest paying jobs in the sector. Cecilia Bianco has answers for what you need to do when any employer googles you. Finally, I'll talk to an engineer who helps people find tech jobs in Silicon Valley and elsewhere.

First, though, let's start as we do every week by checking with the Mac's List team. Ben, Cecilia, how are you two doing?

Ben Forstag:

I'm doing great.

Cecilia Bianco:

Doing really good, Mac.

Mac Prichard:

Good. It's great to have you both here in the studio. Now, tech jobs. Before you all came here, did either one of you work in the technology sector?

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah. I actually had an internship at a startup in college. It was called NOUO and it was a database for everything going on at the university restaurants, bars, and what to do on the weekend. It was an interesting experience.

Ben Forstag:

When I was in college, I was an intern at Compuware in Detroit. They are a software services company. I was in the marketing department so I wouldn't call it a tech job per se but it was where I first learned how to use HTML which has been a great skill for me.

Mac Prichard:

I have not worked in the tech sector. I had the good fortune, way back in the early 80s when IBM first introduced their PC's, to work at a non-profit that actually bought them. That was, in those days, bleeding edge technology. I learned all about floppy disks and Wordstar 3.0.

Speaking of discovery, let's turn to Ben who's out there every week looking for resources that you, or listeners, can use. Ben, what have you learned for us this week related to technology?

Ben Forstag:

Mac, since today we're talking about technology I wanted to share two different blogs that I found, specifically blog posts, around technology. The first one comes from Glassdoor.com which is a resource we talked about last week. This comes from their blog which is around all kinds of workforce issues. This blog is the 25 highest paying jobs in demand. It's a list of the highest paying jobs that there's a huge demand for, as you would guess.

The key takeaway of this job post is that almost half of the jobs listed were in the tech sector. I wrote out the top tech jobs. They are software architect, software development manager, solutions architect, analytics manager, IT manager, data scientist, security engineer, hardware engineer, database administrator, and software engineer. I don't know what most of the jobs do, I'll admit, but these are all jobs where the average salary is well over $100,000 a year.

There's clearly a lot of money and opportunity in the tech sector. Thirty years ago our parents or grandparents might have been urging us to go and be doctors or lawyers because they thought that's where we were going to make a lot of money and take care of them in their old age. Nowadays, parents are probably urging their kids to go off to Silicon Valley and become software engineers and analytics managers because that's where all the money's at.

Mac Prichard:

That's an impressive list. I know we'll include that in the show notes, too.

Ben Forstag:

I'll include this specific URL to this blog post in the show notes.

The key, I think, here is knowing the coding languages that are most in demand, if you want to get into the tech sector. I did a little bit of googling and what I found were the most in demand languages were SQL, Java, JavaScript, C#, C++, Python, Ruby on Rails, and iOS Swift.

Cecilia, I saw you shaking your head when I read that list. Do you know any of these coding languages?

Cecilia Bianco:

(laughs) No, I don't. I did recently discovered that Mac's List runs on SQL. While I have no idea how to run it or anything about it, I know what it's called.

Ben Forstag:

You know we've got it. How about you, Mac?

Mac Prichard:

I'm doomed because I don't recognize any of these languages. I have some Spanish but I don't think that's going to cut it.

Ben Forstag:

Ten years ago, I thought I was really advanced because I know HTML. No, I don't know any of these either so I'm doomed as well.

Here's the good news for all of us in this room and all of our listeners, you can learn almost all of these languages online, in your home, in your pajamas, and often for free, which brings me to my next blog resource for the week, which is a blog post on a website called hongkiat.com. That's H-O-N-G-K-I-A-T .com. (I don't know where these names come from!)

The blog is the top 10 websites to learn coding, interactively, online. There are a lot of different websites out there where you can take courses, where you can learn just about any one of these languages, and other tech skills. Some of these websites you may have heard of before, Code Academy, Codetree, Treehouse, or Khan Academy. Khan Academy, I know, has been making the news a lot recently because they teach just about any subject you want to learn.

The really cool thing about this is most of these sites offer at least some free training. You can scale up and pay for extras, but the baseline on most of them is free. The one reason I really like this hongkiat.com blog post is it gives a good summary of what each site teaches in terms of what languages you can learn, price point of what you can get for free and what you have to pay for, the teaching methodology, and the difficulty level for each online course. They have a matrix at the bottom of the blog post that displays all this information in a really easy and intuitive way. I would suggest you check out this blog post. It's, again, the top 10 websites to learn coding, interactively, online. I will have the URL in our show notes.

Mac Prichard:

Great. I know that our listeners will look forward to seeing that. Thanks, Ben. If you have a suggestion for Ben for a resource you think would be valuable to our listeners, write him. His email address is [email protected].

Let's turn to you, our listeners. Cecilia, our community manager, is here to answer one of your questions. Cecilia, what are you hearing, this week, from our listeners?

Cecilia Bianco:

This week our question is, "I have an upcoming interview and I'm curious how I should prepare my online profiles. What are employers looking for when they google my name?"

I think they're looking for a few different things, but the main reason an employer is googling you is to check your credibility. They want to see what pops up when your name is googled. Are you saying who you say you are? Do your online profiles align with what you've said about yourself thus far in your cover letter, resume, and any other correspondence you've had with them. Especially if you're applying for a tech job, this is important because you want to make sure what's popping up in a google search, that whatever comes up shows your credibility in your field. Are you a part of online tech groups? Online communities that are having conversations around the technology sector? Are you tech savvy and active online in social media, and with tech writing?

Firstly, I think to prepare you should start by googling yourself and seeing what pops up. From there, you can focus on what you need to improve. Mac and Ben, I know I've googled my own name before, have you googled yours?

Ben Forstag:

I have. Unfortunately, or fortunately, I've got a last name that is not very common and it's probably the case that I know, or am immediately related to, any Forstag out there in the world. If you are a Forstag and you don't know who I am, please give me a call so we can chat. I have googled myself. I get the usual mish-mash of old posts that I've written for Mac's List, or other websites, my social media profiles, press releases I've written for other organizations.

I would like to make one quick addendum to your suggestion, though. When you google yourself, I think it really helps if you're in blind mode or user mode on your browser because Google remembers a lot of your search history, and that doesn't show you what everyone else out in the world is looking for or finds when they type in your name. If you use, I think it's called "Guest Mode" in Chrome, or Blind Mode in other-

Mac Prichard:

I think it might be called Incognito.

Ben Forstag:

Incognito Mode in Chrome. That cleans the slate and shows you what everyone else in the world sees when they google your name. It's a good way to see what other folks see.

Mac Prichard:

I have googled myself and it is a good practice because you want to see what others will see about you. I made a deliberate effort some years ago to make sure I filled out online profiles for common sites like LinkedIn, Yelp, Facebook. Those are the ones that pop up.

Cecilia Bianco:

I saw a lot of the same stuff when I googled myself. Past work, past blog posts, and all my online profiles came up, which I think is a good thing. After you google yourself, you want to figure out where you can improve what's popping up on Google. The first and most important thing to focus on is LinkedIn because you can get the most value out of an employer looking at your LinkedIn profile and it's really common to want to see that. If your LinkedIn profile isn't popping up, what you want to do is change the URL on your LinkedIn profile to include your full name. That way, it'll make you a little bit more searchable. That's pretty easy to do. You just hit edit profile and you'll see it pop up so you can make a change to that long URL.LinkedIn is very important to make sure that's popping up. It's good to have your profile setup and ready to go for an employer to see before you even apply for the job, because they might google you right when they see your resume. You want to be prepared for that. Once LinkedIn's taken care of, you want to see what other social media accounts of yours are popping up, if they are. You want to make sure you don't have anything on those accounts that you don't want an employer to see.

If you're using Twitter and Facebook, you want to make sure your privacy filters are set to only show things to strangers that you want them to see. They can be great tools to support your credibility because if you're showing on all your social media platforms that your interests and passions and things you like to talk about are the same in what you've said in your job application, that demonstrates that you're a credible applicant and that they're going to trust you more. You want to make sure those are all cleaned up before you apply. If you don't have time to clean them up before applying, just make sure your privacy filters are locked tight with just what you want them to see.

Mac, we've talked about this before. I know you've googled past job applicants. What were you looking for when you did that?

Mac Prichard:

Two things. One, I wanted to see that track record of accomplishment or experience in the area for the job that they were applying for. I think you're making a really important point, Cecilia, about the importance of showing rather than telling. People can say that they're interested in a topic or they have experience in an area, but if you go online and you see that they've actually done work and there are examples of that work then that's very powerful.

The second thing I'm looking for is what clients and colleagues will see when they google that person because if I do higher than candidate, as an employer, they're going to become part of the time. The image that they're projecting to the world becomes part of our company's brand. I want to make sure that that aligns with the values and the mission of our firm.

Cecilia Bianco:

That's definitely really important. One last tip, the more profiles you're active on and feel comfortable with an employer seeing, the better. This gives you the most control over what's going to pop up into the Google search and what they're going to see when they google you. Overall, the easiest way to control what an employer will see if they google you is to google yourself and then determine where you can improve.

Mac Prichard:

Good. Well, thank you, Cecilia. That's excellent advice. If you have a question for Cecilia please email her. Her email address is [email protected] segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. We're making the complete Mac's List guide even better by adding new content and making the book available on multiple eReader platforms. In February of next year, we'll launch the revised version of the book and you'll be able to access Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond on Kindle, Nook, iPad, and other digital devices. You'll also be able to get, for the first time, a paperback edition. Whatever the format, our goal is the same, to give you the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. For more information, visit macslist.org/eBook and sign up for our eBook newsletter. We'll be sending you publication updates, share exclusive book content, and provide you with special pre-sale prices.

Let's turn to our expert guest this week, and that is Albert Qian, who is a high tech digital marketing and product marketing manager. He's originally from Silicon Valley and he now works in Orange County, California. He's also the founder of Albert's List, a Facebook Jobs Community with more than 10,000 members that includes recruiters, hiring managers, job seekers, and more. Through the use of social media, Albert has helped fellow group members find work at companies like eBay, Google, and GoPro. Albert, thanks for joining us.

Albert Qian:

Thank you for having me on, I really appreciate the time.

Mac Prichard:

It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Let's talk about tech jobs. When people think about technology they think, "These jobs are in Silicon Valley, they're for coders, engineers. If you don't have a degree in electrical engineering you're out of luck." What's been your experience?

Albert Qian:

My experience is that when you look at the entire technology and high tech ecosystem for what's out there, there's actually a lot of opportunities available even for people who aren't engineers. I was out at the Golden State Warriors basketball game on Sunday and I ran into somebody who is a designer, so User Interaction Designing, UI, UX, that kind of thing, which is a really hot field right now in the area of high tech. You have a lot of people who need to design their websites, their web applications, there mobile applications. When I asked her what her background was she said that she was somebody who had gotten a degree in counseling psychology with an emphasis on education. I've seen similar stories where people who have psychology backgrounds also get jobs where they're in project management, PMP roles where they're working on, and with, engineers on getting a lot of products to market. There's a lot of different areas.

Mac Prichard:

Let's pause there for a moment, Albert. I can imagine our listeners thinking, "I've picked up my BA in Psychology. How do I make the leap into design work and doing user experience testing?" How do people make that journey?

Albert Qian:

I think the journey is made where you think about a product as just an end user, right? Many of us have smartphones today. We, no doubt, use a bunch of different applications whether it's on our phone, or on the web, we're all Facebook users, Twitter users, Uber users, things like that where we're using all these different apps. The way where we can apply a Humanities degree into a technology job is by applying our very own experience. Obviously, there's a little bit of knowledge in needing to know how some of this technology works and domain knowledge will always set you apart, but because we're all the end user of so many different types of technology today, we can always have the power and the ability to share these with the technology teams that we work with, and take those ideas into fruition into a product.

Mac Prichard:

Technology matters but so does human experience and understanding human behavior is always a marketable skill in technology.

Albert Qian:

Right now, you see a lot of technology that's out there on the market, a lot of prospective users. It takes a keen human eye to be able to look in-between, where you have the ability to use that technology, the solution to be able to really get users to come and user the product and stay using the product.

Mac Prichard:

For people who don't have psychology degrees, I know there are a lot of other opportunities in technology. Can you talk a little bit about that and the kinds of backgrounds and skills that help people thrive in this sector, outside of engineering.

Albert Qian:

I've seen people who have English degrees get jobs where they're doing things like technical writing, they are marketing specialists where they focus on writing collateral, or doing blogging content for a lot of technology companies that realize that they need to find a way to reach a broader audience. There are folks who can go into technology sales. If you're able to speak the language and also use your charisma in being able to sell technology products to others, that works as well. There's everything along the lines of the post-engineering process. Once you create a product, you've got to find a way to sell it. Selling the product includes everyone from product marketers, to sales folks, to people who manage social communities, to people who do the accounting/finance stuff in high tech, and really everything in-between.

Mac Prichard:

How do you see people break into that world, Albert? Whether it's after they've graduated or perhaps they're mid-career and they experience in another field but they want to break into technology. What do people that stand out or are successful at that do?

Albert Qian:

I think understanding the important of a particular domain is important to start out with. I think knowing what and why the technology is important is something that people are always looking for. Even though we live in such a technologically connected world a lot of people are great at using the technology but they don't understand why the technology is important from a business perspective.

Mac Prichard:

Albert, when we're talking about the domain, explain that for our listeners?

Albert Qian:

A domain would be a technology area. For example, one that I'll use is cloud computing…

Mac Prichard:

There's a lot of opportunity there and it's important to know the field that you want to focus on. What about training if you want to break into technology, there are code academies out there, online training schools, how helpful can those be to people who want to work as programmers, particularly those who didn't have that training in college and, maybe, want to make a career switch?

Albert Qian:

I think it's an interesting way to go about switching from one career into another. I've spoken to people who have taken these courses and people who are naturally interested in programming and they see people in these courses ... I've seen the example where these types of courses can really be beneficial for somebody who is interested in coding. One of my friends from college decided to go and take one of these 12 week boot camp courses. Now, he leads a technical team at a startup out in Santa Barbara. That's an example of where it is successful. Another one of my friends took one of these courses as well and now she has transitioned from an account management sales role into a product management role for a company out in Boston, Massachusetts.

Have there been successes? Absolutely. I think, on the other hand ... I've spoken to programmers, as well, who look at this type of audience and they question whether they really get a lot of effective training out of it. On one hand, while you do know how to code, your ability to be creative within this coding knowledge is somewhat limited because you're working from a very limited perspective where, maybe, understanding coding isn't necessarily a natural forte of yours. This goes back to the original point where within technology and the technology sector, there is not necessarily a need to just become a programmer and that's just technology in its whole.

As we've discussed throughout this podcast ... If you have the skills to be able to write, you can be a marketer, you can be a technical writer. If you're a person who can talk to people and to a very good job on that, you can be a salesperson. You can be an account executive, you can be a business development individual within any of the companies that work in tech out there. If you have in degree in, say, accounting or finance, you can go work in a money perspective in many of these different companies. You can do very well for yourself. Programming doesn't have to be the end-all, be-all. However, there are a lot of different resources out there for people who want to pursue that path.

Mac Prichard:

When does it make sense for people to get training in programming? If they want to be a programmer? Can that be an asset if they want to be a project manager or work in marketing or sales or communications in tech?

Albert Qian:

I certainly think that being technical is very helpful, especially in an area where you might interface with a lot of engineers. If you are a web marketing individual and you want to launch a product, being able to talk about the interactive features of a website may help a lot. Being able to talk about how something can be marketed as a product marketer when you're interfacing with your social media manager who may know how to code can be really helpful once in awhile. A lot of the jobs these days are merging together. Your technical writer may need to know how code works and write about how that works from purely a writing perspective.

Mac Prichard:

Coding can help, and other skills matter a lot, too. If someone is thinking about getting training in coding, and you mentioned your two colleagues that have had a positive experience, what advice do you have for people who are shopping around for either an online course or a boot camp or a code academy? What should they look for?

Albert Qian:

For the boot camps that exist in 8 to 12 week increments, a lot of them have interesting payment plans where either you give them the $15,000 to start and they put your through that process. Or, there are ones that take a portion of your salary when you start. That's one pricing model that exists out there. Another model out there that exists are the massive open and online courses, the MOOC's, that exist. You can go to websites like Coursera, or Code Academy, or U-2-me.com and you can pay for anywhere from $30 to $200 to $300 course where you can do self-directive learning on coding. I think when you're doing the coding learning process, it's always important to have a project in mind that you're doing.If you're just doing the code to learn how to code, you don't really get much out of it. If there's a website that you'd like to make, or a business that you have that you'd like to improve upon and develop a web application, or a mobile application, I believe that's usually the best way to take and the best course of action to approach with when it comes to learning how to code and gaining technical knowledge.

Mac Prichard:

Have a project that engages you and actually produces a result. Stepping back to shopping for a course, you mentioned 3 different options, and they have 3 different price points, obviously, but are there any warning signs that people should look out for when they're considering signing up with one of these boot camps or an online course?

Albert Qian:

There's a lot of financial consideration. For example, there's a lot of these coding academies that have popped up in the last couple of years that have already seen their doors close. If you're learning how to code and you go to one of these coding academies that ends up closing after you leave, you may be no better than where you began. I think name recognition counts a little bit. I think understanding the practical outcomes of what you're learning is also important as well. If you're going in and you know you want to do front end web development, knowing the right types of languages that you're going to be taught is a very important first step. That's one thing as well. Looking at reviews from students who have attended in the past and seeing where they've landed and going with that as well.

Mac Prichard:

Look for companies that have a track record, have good reviews, and can talk about their outcomes and how they've helped students.

Albert Qian:

It also doesn't hurt ... If you do want to go on Coursera or u2me and you find yourself a $15 course that teaches you how to code, you can't really lose with that. Having a little bit of extra knowledge never hurts.

Mac Prichard:

Let's move on. In our earlier conversation before this interview, what struck me was when we were talking about how people find tech jobs, you brought up a lot of techniques that I hear about any job search. One point you made that stuck with me was that networking still matters. Can you talk more about that and how networking can make a difference in getting a tech job?

Albert Qian:

Networking can make a difference because you put yourself in front of a live person. If you email people, they have the option to ignore you. If you call people, they have the option to never return your voice mail. Putting yourself in front of another individual and putting your best foot forward is always a plus. Humans respond very well when they see somebody that impresses them. Going out there and giving out your business cards in a reasonable method, obviously, and immersing yourself in front of a lot of people who speak tech, perhaps even a lot better than you do, is really a great way to start. If you're in a major metropolitan area around the country, there are quite a few, actually, events one can attend on a bi-monthly basis. They can meet up with people who work in technology.

Mac Prichard:

Ours is a national audience. I know you're in California, but are there groups that you see that operate across the country that our listeners might want to check out?

Albert Qian:

Yeah. One major one that I've gotten to know a little bit here in my time in Orange County is called Workbridge Associates. They host an event in all major cities across the country called Tech In Motion. Tech In Motion is a monthly networking event. Sometimes, they have content, sometimes they don't. Various technology professionals in technology marketing, people who program, all get together to share insights, exchange business cards, and get to know each other.

I think, just from my understanding, they've got people in Seattle, Portland, the Bay Area, LA and Orange County, Chicago, Tampa Bay, New York City, Austin, Texas, and so many more.

Mac Prichard:

Excellent. We'll be sure to include that in the show notes. We're coming to the end of our interview, Albert. What else would you like to share with our listeners?

Albert Qian:

I'd like to invite any of your listeners to look at joining Albert's List. We, are you've mentioned, are that marketplace where we bring together job seekers, recruiters, and numerous opportunities. Like what you do with Mac's List. We have a main California group that you can find under Albert's Job Listings and Referrals. We also have groups that cover Seattle, Austin, Chicago, and New York City. We invite you to join. You can go to our main Facebook group at bit.ly/findyournextjob. That's B-I-T . L-Y / find your next job. All one word. You can also visit us online at albertslist.org. We currently just have a signup page for our email list. We send out emails every 2 to 3 weeks which includes everything from an update on the jobs report that the US Labor Department sends out every month to highlights of jobs that have been posted in our group, to upcoming live networking events, mainly available in the San Francisco Bay Area, where you can meet other professionals and get referred, and just get to know the people in your community.

Mac Prichard:

We'll be sure to include both of those links in the show notes. Albert, thanks so much for joining us this week.

Albert Qian:

Definitely. Thank you, again, for having me.

Mac Prichard:

Great. We're back with Ben and Cecilia. Now, what did you two thing of the conversation with Albert? What were some of the most important points you heard him make?

Cecilia Bianco:

I really liked what he had to say about applying for a tech job just with experience with human behavior and human experience and what a user experiences on a website. I think that's good to have in your mind going into an interview at a tech job. I think it can be a lot more valuable than I ever thought it was from what he said.

Mac Prichard:

I think you're right. Working the technology sector isn't just about coding. The experiences and values that can serve you in one field, whether it's marketing, sales, project management, human resources are also valuable in the technology sector. What about you, Ben?

Ben Forstag:

I think Albert went back to one of the golden rules of job searching which is networking and how important it is to network within the field that you're interested in exploring. I like the way he put it when you show up at a networking event, it's really hard for people to ignore you. It's an opportunity for you to present yourself in a positive light in front of people who matter and decision makers at companies.

Mac Prichard:

I agree. It doesn't matter what the sector might be. Human connection still matters. People always will tend to hire people they know or people that are recommended to them by people they trust.

Well, thank you both, and thank you, our listeners, for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, visit us at macslist.org where you can signup for our free newsletter with more than a hundred new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, you can help us by leaving a review and rating at iTunes. This helps others discover our show and helps us help more job seekers. Thanks for listening.

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