Find Your Dream Job: Insider Tips for Finding Work, Advancing your Career, and Loving Your Job

Have you ever thought about striking out on your own? Maybe you want to start a nonprofit, a private company, or a consulting practice. Perhaps you want to be “solopreneur”--a one person startup.

Whatever road you choose, you need think about carefully about the road ahead. Being a founder offers many benefits, but you should be clear about why you want to do it and understand what it takes to succeed.

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with serial entrepreneur Russ Finkelstein. Russ was co-founder of Idealist.org, as well as several other nonprofit and social good ventures. He also mentors entrepreneurs who are working to build their own startup organizations. Russ has experienced success and failure as a founder and shares his experience with our listeners.

In this 37-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Russ Finkelstein (LinkedIn)Founder and Managing Director, Clearly NextAdvisor, The Talent Philanthropy ProjectCo-Founder, Idealist.orgPortland, Ore.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

--

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:   

This is Find Your Dream Job, a podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want and make a difference in life.

I am Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and our book, "Land your dream job in Portland and Beyond." To learn more about the book and the updated edition that we're publishing in February, visit macslist.org/ebook.

Thanks for joining us today. This week on Find your dream job, we're talking about how to be a founder. Have you ever thought about striking out on your own? Maybe you want to start a non-profit or a private company or a consultant practice. Whichever option you chose, you need to think carefully about the road ahead. Being a founder offers many advantages but you need to be clear about why you want to do it and understand what it takes to succeed.

Our expert desk this week, Russ Finkelstein has helped start two organizations. One was quite successful, the other one failed and now he's part of a third start-up. Later in the show, Russ will share his story and his dos and don'ts for founders.

But maybe you don't want to start your own organization. Maybe you want to be a solopreneur, a one-person start-up. Ben Forstag will join us and he'll discuss a book and resources you can use to launch your own venture for $100 or less. Cecilia Bianco, as she does every week, answers our listeners' question and this week, she'll share with you five key questions you need to answer before you leave your day job and start your own show.

So how about you two, have you ever thought ... Ben and Cecilia about after Mac's list perhaps starting your own organization?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I don't know if that would be the right thought for me, seeing all the different blogs and articles we see about it. I just think I'm not ready for all that risk. I can't think about it yet.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. You think about the risks that's involved. Yeah, I can sympathize. And Ben?

Ben Forstag:     

I want to work for you forever Mac! No, I fantasize sometimes about starting my own business but there are a lot of risks there and at this point of my life, I'm not quite ready to take those risks.

Mac Prichard:

I'll share with you. I've been self-employed now for eight years and when I first started out on my own, I had a day job that kept me busy half-time and then the other half, I was running my public relations company, [inaudible 00:02:30] Communications. People would say to me in those days, "How does it feel?" And I would say, "It's like standing on a dock and you got one foot in a row-boat and it's slowly drifting away from the dock and I've the other foot on the dock and I can't decide where I should shift my weight," and eventually I chose the boat and here we are, eight years later.

Ben Forstag:      

Thanks for making that decision.

Mac Prichard:   

It's great to be here.

Ben, let's take it back to you. I know you have a resource of the week you want to share with us? What have you discovered for us this week?

Ben Forstag:      

Since we're talking this week about going out on our own and doing your own things, starting your own business, being your own boss, I thought this would be a good time to talk about Chris Guillebeau Portland-based entrepreneur, business writer and motivational speaker.

Chris is a really interesting guy. By his own admission, he's never held a regular job. Instead he is consistently found ways to turn his ideas into income, so that he can avoid the regular 9-5 lifestyle. What his real passion is, in addition to business is travel and he probably talks about and writes about how he's been to all 175 countries on earth all before the age of 34.

So my resource this week is actually going to be Chris' website which is chrisguillebeau.com. His last name is French, as you might be able to tell and that's spelled Guillebeau and I'll have the URL in the show notes. His website is the place where you can access all of his products that he makes available. He's got a blog where he talks a lot about work productivity. To some extent he is a what they might call a productivity ninja about how you can be more effective with email and in working in your office, working in your own business and other writers contribute to his blog as well and write about the same thing and almost everyone there ... the way they support this lifestyle is through their own start-up companies and they're all solo entrepreneurs.

Chris also has written several books. A lot of them are pretty well known. Mac referenced one earlier, it's called "The Hundred Dollar Start-Up," and this outlines a general business model for how you can start your own business starting with a blog around a very focused subject and building off from that. He also wrote a book called, "The Art of Non-Conformity: How to live on your own terms by exploring creative self-employment for radical goal setting, contrary in travel and embracing life a constant adventure," and a third book, this one I've actually not heard of. It seems interesting. It's called "Born for this: How to find the work you meant to do."

All these books are available on his website and you can check him out there. He also coordinates several big events and I know, Mac you've been to some of these and Cecilia and I just got back from one. He hosts one called “Pioneer Nation” which is focused around small businesses and improving how you do things, how you launch, how you market yourself. Cecilia and I went to this about a month ago, got a lot of good stuff out of it. Then he has one of the best named events I have ever heard called, "World Domination Summit" every year. I've not being to that one. I know you have Mac.

Mac Prichard:   

I have.

Ben Forstag:  

Can you talk a little bit about it?

Mac Prichard:   

I have been twice and it takes place over a weekend and there are both speakers who talked to a large group and smaller sessions as well and it's very inspirational. I think it offers a lot of benefits. The two that stand out for me are that it provides a weekend that helps you get to think about your goals and purpose in life and where you want to go and provides some ideas about how to get there. Then the second benefit is the community that it brings together and I've stayed connected as many people have who have attended World Domination Summit with what other people call themselves WDSers and they've had some good friendships and good professional relationships come out of both of those.

Ben Forstag:   

Yeah, and one of the recurring themes throughout the events and the books and the blog and this is something we've talked a lot about on our podcast here is really getting focused and knowing what you want to do, what you want to deliver and why you want to want to deliver it. Getting to why is what they talk about a lot.

So, his website, chrisguillebeau.com is really the portal to the books, the blog and the events and I'd suggest our listeners to check it out. I'll have the URL in the shout outs.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. Thank you Ben. Let's turn to Cecilia. Cecilia is our community manager and she joins us every week to answer you questions. What do you have for us this week Cecilia?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Our question today is, I'm thinking about self-employment but not sure if I'm ready. What are the big issues I should consider to make my decision?

First off Mac obviously has a lot more insight into this question as a business owner but I'll give my best answer and then we can hear your input Mac.

In my opinion, you need to start by asking yourself these five questions to determine if your really ready.

Lastly, do you have a backup plan or financial cushion should your business fail?

Mac, how did I do? Did I miss any big issues?

Mac Prichard: 

I think this is a great list and I think you had almost all the main points. One thing I wrestled with is when I was going through this process was mindset. I had always worked for other people and I never saw myself as an entrepreneur and I think in the popular culture, people think business owners are people who are kind of born into it, maybe they have a family that runs a small business or they are going to Silicon Valley and they're going to start a tech company.

I think I would challenge our listeners just to think about experiences they've had in their careers where perhaps they've organized events or helped a non-profit keep going or they've involved in school groups and those all require entrepreneurial skills and when people think of themselves in that light, I think it makes it easier for them to make that leap.

In my case ... I think I've talked to both of you about this. I have been involved in a lot of political campaigns over the years ... Electoral politics is a passion of mine and a campaign is the ultimate start-up because it takes place over a short period of time and requires investors and there is the product, the candidate and you know on election day whether or not you have a sale. That would be the only thing I'd add is mainly a mindset.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Okay, great. Each of these questions, they take a lot of thought and planning to address but once you do, I think you'll have a clear path forward and be able to see if your mindset is in the right place as you mentioned.

One last thing, there's also a ton of resources out there to help you as you think through these things and today you mentioned a great book and two amazing events that are great examples of ways to get help figuring it all out, so looking for those opportunities in huge before you get started and if it's possible, talking to people like Mac and other entrepreneurs and business owners and seeing how they got started, what problems they encountered and things they wish they would have know before jumping in is a great way to evaluate yourself from hearing about their experience.

Mac, Ben, anything to add?

Ben Forstag:      

I would just go back to what I mentioned two minutes ago which is really getting to the question of why. Why are you doing this. One reason for any entrepreneur is going to be income. They need to pay rent and they want to take care of their family but hopefully there is some bigger why behind it animates what you do and the clearer you are about why you are doing this and why you are taking this road less traveled, that's really going to give you the guidance you need when you have a rough patch in your business or when you're struggling. That's going to provide you clarity and inspiration moving forward.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Definitely.

Mac Prichard:   

I think that's spot-on Ben.

Thank you Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, you can email her. Our email address is [email protected]. The segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. We're making the complete Mac's list guide even better by adding new content and making the book available on multiple e-reader platforms.

Now, when we launch the revised version of the book in February of 2016, you'll be able to access Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond on your kindle, Note, Ipad and other digital devices and for the first time, we'll have a paperback edition.

Whatever the format, our goal is the same. We want to give you the tools and tips you need to get in vogue. For more information, visit macslist.org/ebook and sign up for our ebook newsletter. We'll send you a publication updates and share exclusive book content and provide you with special pre-sale prices.

Now it's time to hear from our expert guest. Joining us this week is Russel Finkelstein who is managing director of Clearly Next which helps people of all incomes build life-long fulfilling careers. He is also a senior advisor to Tel Misanthropy which increases investment by funders in the non-profit and social change work force. Russ serves on the national board of the young non-profit professionals network and he was a founder and associate director of idealist.org.

Russ, thanks for joining us.

Russ Finkelstein: 

Thanks for having me. I'm very impressive on paper. Glad to chat with you.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you here. So, starting your own gig. Let's talk about that.

What should people think about? Whether they want to create a non-profit or perhaps a consulting practice or a private company.

Russ Finkelstein:   

I think I always start with the reasons why people want to begin something. I think very often people when they are thinking about making any kind of transition, there is a lack of clarity as to the rational for why they want to do that. So very often someone is like, "I have got the worst boss and I'm going to go and I'm going to make ... I'm sick of having bosses because all bosses are awful. I'm going to go to some other place and start up my own thing and life is going to be easier and plentiful. I'll have my own schedule."

I think there is a notion that ... sort of a simplistic notion that that's going to happen. I think the starting point is understanding, one, why you want to do it and then given that, what's the reality of making that kind of transition.

Mac Prichard:   

So don't flee from something. Actually be working towards something.

Russ Finkelstein: 

Yeah. You have to do your best not to be reactive. It's being proactive to stuff that's taking place in your life, in the given workplace but also understand the kind of lifestyle that you want and how it connects to what it would mean to start-up another endeavor.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. So you've been through this process several times now. What are common steps that worked for you that listeners should consider taking as they think through whether or not they should strike out on their own?

Russ Finkelstein:    

One of the first things, it just comes down to research. It just whatever the en devour is, whether it's in the non-profit sector or consulting or for profit. It's understanding what the void is, what is the thing that you are going to fill. Are you credibly in a position to go and fill that? How easy is it to develop business? How risk averse are you around having to be a rainmaker.

A lot of it is really doing internal work to understand what you want and then the other thing because we do wonderful jobs we'd be lying to ourselves. Like we are an amazing at lying. One of the things when I was working on the start-up that didn't go ... one of the things that's I've always told myself is that, if you work hard enough you can work through anything. And it was one of those things where I reached at a point where I realized with all your possibilities which was the start-up that I hated working on my own. I felt very isolated and even though I had advisors. One thing I would always recommend to people is, have a conversation with people you trust. I always call them people of standing which are people that you communicate well with, you trust and you're not going to be dismissive of. Very often we reach out to people that we're comfortable with, so our parents, our partners, our best friends, sibling ... but it's also very easy for us to dismiss that and dismiss their opinions.

That for me is a really important thing and even in the start-up mode, I had some people that I trusted but I realized actually more than just checking things out and having them vet for me, I had to feel like someone was all in the way that I was. It was just hard for me to do that and I had to learn that.

Mac Prichard:  

So first get clear about the void or the problem. The void you're filling, the problem you're solving but then be clear about what you want out of the experience and turn to trusted advisors to help you think that through.

Russ Finkelstein:   

Yeah. The people who know you best who can push both on your ideas and can give you real feedback on how sustainable those ideas are and then given what they know of you, how realistic it is for you to be that person moving ahead.

Mac Prichard:

How do you find those people Russ? Are these co-workers or ... Obviously they're probably people already in your life or maybe they're not.

What have you seen work well and not wanted for yourself but for others in both identifying these trusted advisors and then building a relationship with them?

Russ Finkelstein:     

Sure, I think people get hung up on this awful word known as mentor. My least favorite words because people have this notion that there is going to be this one person that has all the answers for everything and that they're going to make an official request of someone to be their mentor and they will sit at their feet and learn everything.

In fact what happens is, in life you interact with who have expertise on specific things that you might need ... instead of thinking about one person giving you feedback, it's just really thinking back on the people that you've worked with who have built a relationship with, who trust you that you communicate well with and they may not be able to give you feedback on the totality of something, but they can give you the feedback on pieces of it.

There is a woman I'm working with in Chicago who is working on a start-up and when we've chat about it, she's classic case of the great cutting away of the good. The challenge of I'm afraid of sharing a thing for fear that it might be good enough. With her, I've mentioned a couple of people that she can start with. Like two people who are safe people who are really smart so she can feel really comfortable that, one if they've read through something, it's likely to have been well vetted and two, the other challenge a lot of people have is who are they to do this thing. Who am I to be the founder of this thing. In fact that's going to come up later on when it's time for funding or other kinds of support, that who are you will certainly come up.

But initially, I think very often when people struggle with that, one of the things that I will often tell people about is, think about your friends, think about those people that you really respect and you know that those individuals can chose who they are going to spend time with, who they are going to make themselves available to and if you respect and think highly of those people, then that in itself as a sign that you are onto something, that you are someone who has merit in the world, your ideas have merit in the world and sometimes it's just sort of the latter of confidence and you've got to build a solid initial foundation of sharing with a couple of people and kind of build from there.

Mac Prichard:   

You touched on this. I think some people think a mentorship has to be a formal relationship with an agreement or regular meetings and I've certainly been approached and I know you are often with people who have a specific question about a particular problem and I might not hear from those folks again for months or maybe even several years but I feel good about having that conversation because they've approached me about something I can actually help them with.

Russ Finkelstein:     

And even as a mentor ... There is a gentleman I work with who graduated from MIT early and therefore bright and is working on something that I barely understand. Like I can get maybe 30% of what he's talking about but I can help him with the structure of what he's doing. His ability to get your toaster and your refrigerator talking to one another is completely beyond anything I'll ever be able to grasp but I understand what he needs to move this thing ahead and to feel confident about it and to prioritize things.

So it really is just to understand that different people have different traits but also that he and I communicate really well in terms of process.

Mac Prichard:   

Who shouldn't be a founder? Are there people that should just take themselves out of the running right from the start?

Russ Finkelstein: 

I don't know that there is anybody who shouldn't ever be a founder. I think that it's just a question of understanding the reality. So if you're somebody who for example, doesn't want to ever have to deal with raising money, getting clients any of the associated things that are involved with being a founder, that's going to be difficult.

Maybe you look into co-founder-ship which is a whole other thing given your skill-set. I think you have to ask yourself how comfortable I am playing the kinds of roles that are necessary for that work and just again be really clear about the lifestyle because if someone could decide that I'm going to begin my own consultancy and say, "Okay. I'm going to keep my job. I'm going to do it on the side." Some things are slow build and some things require you to be all in very early on. I think it depends on the nature of that thing and what again, I keep using this lifestyle word but what’s you're mortgage like. How you're taking care of ... you have a family to deal with. What does that take care of in terms of your hours, what does your partner do if you have one in terms of dealing with the bill.

A lot of this stuff involves a lot of other relationships and you're making very specific choices. There was a start-up that we never have mentioned to you. When I was an idealist in the first five or six years into idealist I had been thinking about an idea that since nothing has ever really happened with it. I'm never going to do it. It was in New York City and it was developing something that would be for LGBTQ non-profits.

It was going to be an organization that both built the capacity of the organizations and also run as a volunteer center within that community. I was interested in it and I spoke with people who wanted to be on the board and I was able to do some perspective fund raising and then I got to the point ... I got to the tipping point of defining, am I going to go and be that person or not and I decided do I want that to be who I am, Do I want to be the person who is in front of the cameras, who is doing interviews and that shapes who I want to be in terms of a public person.

Even now with Clearly Next, I'm at a moment where I'm doing this podcast but by large, my preference is a lot of one to one conversation of working with founders, to build big things. I love one to one career conversations but I'm not necessarily the guy who's looking to be the big public speaker. I'm not necessarily somebody who wants to go and have to be heavily published and I'm in a moment where I probably going to have to start doing that which makes me a little bit uncomfortable but I'm working through it. Actually you can see by virtue of my speaking into this microphone.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. It's good to have you work through that and I'm intrigued by your point earlier about co-founders. When does it make sense to invite co-founders and what do you look for when you're doing that?

Russ Finkelstein: 

It is so messy. I think the challenge is distrust. The challenge is if you use someone who ... If there are two people who have come together, who organically have developed in that way, I think that's fine. But if you use someone who is taking a running start at something and you've said, "You know what, I need to have someone with more technical jobs, programming jobs."

Very often you'll see there is an idea person who is maybe comfortable with sort of fund-raising and some elements, I really need to have someone who can code or can do certain types of tech and those kinds of people are very difficult to find because they are very much in demand. But I'd say that the challenge is an equal report in interest in the work itself and developing the trust.

Like early on, with Idealist for example, I remember maybe the first six to nine months in, I had a conversation with Amy and I said ... So my thing is no one will ever work harder than me. I don't ever like it when anyone is working harder than me at any project. We would work from 8AM till 2AM many night during the initial phase of idealist and somewhere I said, "I need you to share power more because I can't continue working this hard and not feel like I have ownership."

I think it can be really challenging for people on the ownership side and depends on the personality of the person who is founding and what they're founding but I think the trust thing that was really huge. There isn't one place to find it. There isn't sites like founder dating or other kinds of sites but it really is, there is a level of trust there and I've known lots of guys speak to founders all the time and that challenge of trust and a lot of people start something but what happens is people ... There is usually a person who's in it way more than the other person. The other person is testing out several things and deciding which one is going to move. So you're always going to feel ...

Basically everything ... I think everything is like dating. You're ready to make a committed relation, you're ready to have a committed relationship, you want to get married and she's like, "You know, this might be good but I want to date five or six other people. Let's see like whether there is attraction and let's see where there is movement," and I think that can be really hard when you're committing and you're there and you're just like, "Well, if she's not available, If I want to do this things that's he's not producing them."

The gentleman that I was chatting about from MIT for example, he gets hit up all the time from people who want to do projects because he can code like crazy.

Mac Prichard:   

So think about trust, and it can be messy and I guess I want to dig in a bit for us because what's the difference between looking for a co-founder and just hiring somebody to help you?

Russ Finkelstein:  

I think the difference is always around relationship. The thing that I was mentioning with Idealist, the notion that someone is really committed in the same way, it could just feel different. It could feel like, you're paying me a salary of X and by the way, the other challenge of course is very often start-up mode whether there is a salary to draw from even. It's always one big issue versus equity or other things.

But I'd say that I think that's a big part of it is the notion of how invested that person is in that work. I think it could just be really difficult. One of the reasons I ended up doing so much senior advisor stuff is I need a lot of people who are starting things and I can go emotionally from zero to sixty on people's projects. I love ideas, I love concepts so if someone starting something that they're really interested in and I naturally gravitate towards, "Okay, let's think about that," and I'm interested in both the programmatic thing but also the emotional well being of the founder because very often founders are pretty emotional sort of fragile states because they have to always offer up this image of "I'm on top of it. I know everything. I'm smiling," and I think that weighs on them quite a bit. That notion of having to be just to know everything.

I was at a fellowship retreat not so long ago with a group of founders of stuff and we had our cohort met and two thirds of the group of ten were just crying over this issue of like how difficult life was and how hard it is to try to always have to have this sort of mental of perfection, of being bright and shining and on top of things and impressing funders and donors and staff.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. It can be challenging to keep the game face on but I think you're making an important point not only for people who are thinking about founding their own organizations or practices but just people in the workforce in general. We don't all have to be perfect.

For the benefit of our listeners, you're first start-up was idealist.org and I know that many of our listeners are big fans of that website where it provides positions for people interested in non-profit work around the world. Then you were involved in another organization called "All you possibilities" and that didn't go so well. We've all had our failures and I certainly have and now you're involved in a new group.

Just quickly Russ, can you take us through those three organizations in just a few minutes. Let's start talk about Idealist. How did you know that was going to take off?

Russ Finkelstein:  

I didn't know it would take off. We never do ...

Mac Prichard:   

But in some point, you open the doors and then you've worked hard and then it wasn't a start-up anymore. It was a successful organization.

Russ Finkelstein:   

After four or five years, we finally had gotten to a place of being desperate for money and we started charging people to post jobs. We had no choice and that took off. But for a very long time, every single time we would see a new big non-profit sector website appear. We would be like, "Oh my God. That one looks way better than ours. That one is going to just kill us. We're never going to be able to last."

I'd say it took us a very long time to feel really comfortable with that. We got to a point ... you get to a point where you start to feel a little bit more [inaudible 00:29:11] in terms of how people are very aware of you in certain places. You start hiring people of course, but you feel anxious much of the time and even now and every single one of the things that I participate on this side, you never take for granted that thing is going to take off. You just don't know. You see too many things come and go to be sure of that. So I think that's one of the challenges. I think with all your possibilities, part of it was I just kept waiting for a sign. I got to a place with Becker and [Green 00:29:47] where I was a finalist. It didn't happen. I was like, "Well, I guess that's my sign."

But it was more just like this emotional difficulty of moving ahead.

Mac Prichard:  

I want to talk a little bit about that because we ... I think we all whether we're starting an organization or we're involved in a project at some point we have to make a decision to let go. Tell me when you decided ... First of all what was all your possibilities and very quickly and when did you reach a point where you thought it wasn't just going to go forward?

Russ Finkelstein:     

The idea was that it was an opportunity to go and offer mentorship and locational opportunities advice for LGBTQ young people. I really like the idea of that and connecting people geographically and letting people find based on certain ways that this helps identify whether location or faith or background et cetera.

I've done a lot of work thinking about it. It was a very good idea and I just wasn't at that moment equipped to deliver on. It's one of those things that remains in my head as a thing that I come back to. Conceptually, I tend to have these flashes of ideas of things that I have to do and will sort them out and share them.

I got to a place where I was just like, "Why am I having difficulty moving this thing ahead?" Actually as that was happening, and I was struggling, Elliot who is at Clearly Next, he and I ...

Mac Prichard:   

So he is one of your fellow co-founders at Clearly Next.

Russ Finkelstein:     

He is one of the founders for Clearly Next. That was three of us, Bill as well. We've been introduced about the year and a half prior to a second conversation. The first conversation, it was 20 minutes of him talking at me and then 20 minutes of my talking to him. "Okay. It was great chatting," and it will follow.

Just like we both had a piece and then we were done. Then a year and a half later, a funder said, "You two should talk," and then a year and a half later another someone from a [inaudible 00:31:48] one of those places said, "You guys really should talk," so we spoke again and we were just at different places emotionally. We realized that we were just ... we needed to have another person that we could work with to move ahead.

Mac Prichard:

And this is how you got Clearly Next off the ground.

Russ Finkelstein:  

Yeah, that's how we started really working and he also had previously been a founder and was a recipient of the Ashuka. He had also been accomplished. The other thing that happens ... I mean this is not a conversation about what happens or you could be a one hit wonder, that's a whole other thing.

But I think there is this notion of you've start an organization. Do you have another thing ... Is it an idea that matters enough, is it a thing that you care about enough that you want to go out and you have the energy to do it again.

So when I was at Idealist, I was in my 20s and I had just ridiculous energy for stuff and it wasn't ... There is a thing about social capital. You're less nervous earlier on like "Am I going to look bad or am I going to embarrass myself in front of people," and actually move along further along your career, you have more in clarity about that. So you're more aware than, I think that was another part of the endless possibilities. I was like, "Either I personally do this."

When I talk to people about founding a thing, I always will sort of say, "Here are the three questions," which will be what's the void you're trying to fill, how are you going to sustain this long-term and then I'd say, "Everyone is going to ask who the hell you are to do this." If you can give me those three things, that will take us a long way towards seeing if this makes sense. What's the void, how do you know it's a void, what's the research you've done, how you're going to make sure this is going to continue going long-term, is there a market whether a non-profit or consulting or for profit, how do you know there is a market, how do you reach to that market and then when people look at it at some level, they are going to say, "Why should I listen to you versus the other people?" I think you should always have to come up with the responses to that and that's challenging.

Mac Prichard:   

Those are great questions though and I think that's a great point to close the interview.

Thanks for joining us Russ. You can find Russ online in two websites; Clearly Next and Talent Philanthropy. Those URLs are clearlynext.com and talentphilanthropy.org. We'll be sure to include both sites in the show notes. Thanks Russ for being here.

Russ Finkelstein:  

Awesome. Thanks for having me.

Mac Prichard:   

All right. Take care.

We're back in the studio. Cecilia, Ben what you two think? What are the two take always you got from that conversation with Russ?

Cecilia Bianco: 

The main point it brought home for me is that some people are just suited for this type of path and one way to figure that out that Russ talked about was being okay with not knowing where it's going to go and being okay to take that risk, work really hard and see if it pays off or not because some people just can't be in that type of mind sets so I got a lot from the interview that was probably the main thing for me.

Mac Prichard:   

So don't be afraid to take the risk and go down the road but also recognize that you may find as you do that that it's not the right path for you.

Ben?

Ben Forstag:   

I really liked his point about having a support system around you, whether that is a mentor or a advisor or maybe a board member if you're starting a non-profit. Having a group of trusted people that you can bounce ideas off of and that you can listen to and who can't ignore. I think it's so important because having a support system around you, people who can listen to you, validate your ideas or sometimes play the devil's advocate and say, "That's not a good idea. That is so important to success.

Mac Prichard:

I agree. I think that's excellent advice. Whether you're thinking about starting your own gig or thinking about you're next job..

Well, thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with more tips and tools you can use to find your dream job. In the mean time, please visit us at macslist.org or you can sign up for our free newsletter with more than a 100 jobs every week and if you like what you hear on the show, you can help us by leaving a review and a rating at Itunes. This helps others discover our show and helps us help more job seekers.

Thanks for listening.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

You may want a gig with a cool corporation like Nike, Google, or Apple. Perhaps you’ve targeted a big government agency or a nonprofit. Or maybe your goal is to land a job with small employer. Wherever you’re going, one day you will send your resume to a human resources (HR) department.

For many job seekers the human resources department can seem like a black hole–a place where applications disappear without a trace. But there is a science to working with HR; and, when you know how the process works, a human resources department can be your gateway to a great job.

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac gets the inside scoop from long-time HR professional, Melissa Anzman. After 13 years in corporate human resources, Melissa started a new career as a career advisor, author, and business coach.  Melissa shares her tips on how to navigate the HR hiring process and make it work to your advantage.

In this 38-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Melissa Anzman (@melissaanzman)Principal, Launch YourselfAuthor of How to Land a Job: Secrets from an HR InsiderCopper Mountain, Colo.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

--

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:   

This is "Find Your Dream Job", a podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and our book "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond". To learn more about the book and the updated edition that we're publishing in February, visit macslist.org/ebook.

Thanks for joining us today. This week on "Find Your Dream Job", we're talking about how to work with an employer's human resources department. You may want a gig with a cool corporation like Nike, Google, or Apple. Perhaps, you've targeted a big government agency or a nonprofit or maybe your goal is to land a job with a small employer.

Wherever you're going, one day you will send your resume to a human resources, or HR, department. Many employers rely on human resources staff to advertise, accept, and screen all job applications. Before you get to see a hiring manager, you may have an interview with someone in human resources. Should you try to go around the human resources office and talk to a hiring manager directly? What do you do if the HR people never call you back?

This week, we'll talk about these and other questions with longtime human resources insider, Melissa Anzman. She'll share her secrets for what you need to do when working with an HR department, but first, let's start as we do every week by checking in with the Mac's List team, Ben Forstag and Cecilia Bianco. How are you two doing this week?

Ben Forstag:      

I'm doing good, Mac.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Doing really good.

Mac Prichard:

All right. It's good to see you both. Now, in your careers, have you two applied for jobs through human resources departments? What happened next if you did?

Ben Forstag:      

I remember back before email when sometimes on job listings they would say, "Hand deliver your resume and cover letter to the human resources department." I remember a really cold winter afternoon in Cleveland, Ohio where I went downtown, went into a big office building to drop off a resume, and I got to the human resources department. No one was there.

The door was open. There was a counter, the lights were on, but no one would respond when I was asking like, "Hello? Anyone here?" I ended up just leaving my resume on the counter and walking out.

Mac Prichard:      

You didn't write at the top, "One we must interview"?

Ben Forstag:

That would have probably gotten me better results than I got.

Mac Prichard:

Okay.

Ben Forstag:

The results I did get were ... No one ever called me back.

Mac Prichard:  

Oh. Well, that sounds like a pretty lonely place.

Ben Forstag:     

Yeah. Maybe it was good that I missed that opportunity.

Mac Prichard:  

Yeah. How about you, Cecilia?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah. I've done some online applications to HR departments, but I've never really heard back from them and I never get contact back until I've tracked down a hiring manager on LinkedIn or however you can find 'em.

Mac Prichard:  

Yeah. I've had the most success with hiring managers. As Ben was telling his story, a memory that came to mind was going Downtown before a deadline on a Friday afternoon and dropping off my application. It was at the reception desk. The receptionist had two large boxes and they were filled with dozens of resumes and packets. I never heard back from them, either.

Ben Forstag:  

Was one box labeled "Yes" and the other one labeled "No"?

Mac Prichard:   

No, they were kind enough to wait until the doors were closed to do the sorting. We'll talk about human resources departments because there are ways you can work with them effectively. Melissa knows how to do that and she's going to be sharing that with us. First, let's turn to you, Ben. Every week, you're sharing with us different resources you've found. What have you located this week on the internet?

Ben Forstag:   

Today, we're going to be talking about the website Glassdoor.com. Now, I know we've mentioned this in passing last week, but I think this resource deserves a little bit more attention. We're going to spend a few minutes just chatting about it. Mac and Cecilia, have you guys ever used Glassdoor.com in your own job search or for some other research purpose?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah. I actually look at it all the time. Sometimes to see what employers are posting on Mac's List and making sure they're legitimate. It's just a great resource overall to find out about your local job market.

Mac Prichard:  

I've looked at it too as part of my research to figure out what are good salary ranges for the Portland market. As you know ... In addition to Mac's List, I run a public relations company and I want to make sure that I'm offering the best and most competitive salaries I can. Glassdoor is a great way of helping to determine that.

Ben Forstag:      

Sure. Like many things, Glassdoor has its pros and its cons. I want to sort my conversation today around the good, the bad, and the ugly. The good thing about Glassdoor.com is this is an opportunity to get a sneak peek inside the culture, the salaries, the benefit plans, and the general office environment in lots of different companies. You can go onto the site, you type in a company name, you type in a city, and it spits out a lot of information about what people are getting paid at the organization in general terms, whether they like their office environment, whether they would recommend the job to a friend or a colleague and so forth.

You can see the salary ranges for different job titles both nationally and specific to your city. As we know, the same job title could have vastly different salaries in New York City versus Portland, for example. You can learn about the hiring procedures through people who have been interviewed, find out what the interview process look like in terms of ... Was it a phone interview? Was it in person? Were they grilling you with real hard questions or was it a "get to know you" kind of process?

You can find out how candidates were recruited, whether it was through sending in an application online or they were recruited by a recruiter or at a job fair and so forth. That last piece is really important because if you want to work for an organization like Nike, for example, you might find that sending in an application through their HR system is really not the best way to get a job there. The best way is through a job fair or to talk to a recruiter.

Even if you're not looking for a job, you can use the salary tool to see what other people with your job title are getting paid. As we just mentioned, this is really valuable if you're looking to negotiate for a starting salary or for a pay raise. You can show what your comparables are and say, "This is what the market rate is." Mac, you just mentioned using those comparables to set salary ranges, so it sounds like this is something that you're familiar with job seekers doing.

Mac Prichard:   

It is. Employers, as I mentioned earlier, look at it too because ... When you're hiring staff and you want to keep people onboard, the old role is true: You get what you pay for. You want to make sure that you're offering the most competitive wages and salaries you can and doing this kind of research will help you do that.

Ben Forstag:  

That was the good part. Now, we're going to be talking about the bad part.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay.

Ben Forstag:    

Glassdoor.com ... It really works best for larger organizations. It's not much help if you're applying to a small organization with just a handful of employees. I took the liberty of looking up Mac's List. We're not on there. I looked up Prichard Communications, your other firm, Mac. They're not on there.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay.

Ben Forstag:    

Nike's on there, Intel's on there ... A lot of big Portland firms and firms all around the country and the world are there. The reason for this is because all the data they have is submitted by actual employees or former employees. The larger your workforce, the more likely you're going to have people submitting information about you online.

Also, Glassdoor is not great for nonprofit organizations. I looked up several nonprofits that I've worked with and only one of them was listed there. If you're looking for nonprofit backgrounds, probably a better place to start would be on the 990 forms that you can find on places like Charity Navigator. That's how you would find out what the executive director is being paid, what other high level executives are being paid within organizations.

Mac Prichard:   

Why do you think that's so, Ben? Is it a reflection of the size of many nonprofits? Is that why we're not seeing them pop up on this site?

Ben Forstag:    

I'm guessing so. A vast majority of nonprofit organizations are pretty small. We're talking less than five employees. The same rule that applied to the for-profits: The more employees you have, the more likely you're going to have reviews online? It applies for nonprofits as well. Much of the data, as I mentioned, is provided by current and former employees, so the data tends to be a little bit skewed either very positive or very negative. Not a whole lot right in the middle. You ready for the ugly?

Mac Prichard:  

Sure.

Ben Forstag: 

Okay. The ugly is, if you spend too much time on Glassdoor, you start finding that some of the reviews are very, very negative. People really slamming their former boss or the former organization. They had a bad experience at a company and so, they just want to take revenge. All the reviews are anonymous, so people feel that they can go out and just write whatever they want.

Now, one organization that I worked with in the past was listed there. It was a small organization and there was a very negative review of that organization. There was enough data in this anonymous review that I knew who wrote it. I would suggest if you have something negative to say, think twice before you write anything on Glassdoor.com, especially if you work in a real small organization.

You don't want to burn bridges if you don't need to. If someone can identify you through any information you leave on that site, that really destroys any kind of professional credibility you have moving forward. Certainly you can't use that organization as a reference anymore. That's the good, the bad, and the ugly of Glassdoor.com.

Mac Prichard:  

Thank you, Ben. Do you have a suggestion for Ben? Write him and we may share your idea on the show. His email address is [email protected]. Now, it's time to hear from Cecilia Bianco, our community manager. Cecilia is in touch with you, our listeners, throughout the week and she joins us to answer one of your questions. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week? What's the question of the week?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Oh thanks, Mac. Our question is, "How should I prepare to negotiate my salary?" The main piece of advice I have for this is to do your research and go into a negotiation extremely prepared and knowledgeable. Ben's resource this week is actually a great place to start. Glassdoor, Salary.com, and other websites like these allow you to see what other people in your role are making. You can compare your offer to the local market and see how it matches up.

As Ben mentioned, you can search nationally and locally, so always try to narrow it down to salary specific to your city. Sometimes they don't have enough information to provide an average, but it's still a good practice to always check. Then, an easy to get good local information is to ask your peers, family, friends, really anyone you're comfortable discussing this with in your professional network. That can help confirm or support your online research, too. Ben and Mac, I'm curious if you've used research like this when you've negotiated in past jobs.

Mac Prichard:   

Well, I have to say ... As the two of you speak, I'm just reflecting on the fact that you both have anniversaries coming up after the holidays.

Ben Forstag:

Speaking of which, Mac ...

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah.

Mac Prichard:   

As your employer, I better check out these sites and get ready for those meetings after the Christmas holidays, but seriously ... I am serious on that. I have used research like this in negotiating with employees or when I've had jobs myself and have approached employers. It's good to have the facts in your corner when you're making the case for either a higher salary for starting a position or for an annual adjustment. How about you, Ben?

Ben Forstag:

I haven't. I wish I had this data like three or four years ago. When I moved from Washington DC to Portland, I really struggled because I got a job offer, but because the cost of living is so different between those two cities, it was really hard for me to evaluate what my value was. I was making one amount in DC and for the comparable job in Portland, the job offer said the value was significantly less than what I was making in DC. I just didn't have the data behind me to justify whether that was a good offer or a bad offer.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, definitely. It's really important to know the local market. Then beyond that, I think it's important to think about the job you're negotiating for specifically. Reflect on how competitive the applicant pool was and if the employer's been hiring for the position for a long time. Basically, the harder it was for the employer to find you and hire you for the job, the more negotiating power you're going to have.

I know negotiating can feel really uncomfortable, but it's important to get paid what you believe you deserve. Just prepare yourself to really make it easier because the more prepared you are, the more confident and ease you're going to feel when you start negotiations. Mac, from your point of view as an employer, what types of research or negotiation tactics do you feel are effective?

Mac Prichard: 

I always find it persuasive when someone shows me data for salaries for comparable positions in the local market. It could come from the websites that you cited. I also hear from readers all the time that they often look at Mac's List not because they're looking for work, but they're curious to know what jobs like theirs are paying. Visit websites and job boards to pull those kinds of figures and I think you'll be much more effective in making your case.

Something else I want to say about negotiating salaries ... There's research out there that shows that men are more likely to ask for higher salaries when they are negotiating for a job for the first time or for raises than women. I think the employers expect to hear those requests, so I encourage you whatever your gender. Do your homework. Take some time to study negotiating techniques. It'll pay off because once you're in a job, you're setting a base, a foundation, that will likely be that, a base, for several years upon which annual increases will be made. Don't be afraid to be assertive.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah. That makes sense. I think that one thing we commonly see is that people undervalue what they bring to the table, especially after a long job search or they're just afraid to miss out on an opportunity because of what they want to be paid. Really, as Mac just said, it's better to talk it through in negotiations with an employer rather than accept the job at a salary that's going to make you feel undervalued through each raise because you're not going to get a twenty percent raise ever, likely.

It's better to do it when you're just starting. The worst that can happen is that they say no and you have to compromise. Don't forget that you can also negotiate for better benefits if the salary you want is really just out of reach. Mac and Ben, anything to add? Any last tips?

Mac Prichard:   

I think ... Any candidate is at their most attractive to an employer when there's an offer on the table. That's the time to ... As you say, don't be afraid to ask. The worst thing you're going to hear is no. If you don't ask, you won't get it.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah. That's true. If you're interested in more tips on figuring out how to talk about your value to an employer, you'll find several blog posts on Mac's List if you search for "salary negotiation".

Mac Prichard:   

Well, thanks, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, you can email her. Her email address is [email protected]. The segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond". We're making the complete Mac's List guide even better by adding new content and making the book available on multiple e-reader platforms.

When we launch the revised version in February, you'll be able to access "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond" on your Kindle, Nook, iPad, and other digital devices. You'll also be able to order a paperback edition. Whatever the format, our goal is the same. To give you the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. For more information, visit macslist.org/ebook and sign up for our e-book newsletter. We'll send you publication updates, share exclusive book content, and provide you with special pre-sale prices.

Now, let's turn to our expert guest, Melissa Anzman. Melissa is a certified executive coach who helps people get on the right career track and enjoy success in the workplace. She's worked with hundreds of people to grow their careers to the next level. Before starting LaunchYourJob.com, Melissa spent thirteen years in the corporate world as a human resource leader. She's also the author of "How to Land a Job: Secrets of an HR Insider". Well, Melissa, thanks for joining us today.

Melissa Anzman:  

Thanks so much for having me, Mac. It's always fun chatting with you and your team.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. It's a pleasure to have you here. Well, let's turn to our topic today "human resources departments". I have to say, Melissa. When I was doing my homework, I was looking online on this subject and words like "guards", "gatekeepers", and "black hole" kept popping up when I was searching under "human resources" and job hunter-ing. Why do you think human resources departments have that reputation?

Melissa Anzman:     

Yeah. It's definitely one that's unfortunately common and not very flattering of a distinction. Human resources departments get a bad rap because they really are sort of the face of a lot of behind the scenes work. When you're applying to a job, there's one person in HR that you'll talk to usually when you need help with the application, another person in HR takes care of it and then, there's that comp, compensation person, who does sort of the ... What your offer'll be and so on and so forth.

A lot of times, HR gets a bad rap when it comes to the hiring process because they are the gatekeeper in that they're the first line of defense to get your foot in the door at a company. As you've learned in a previous podcast with Jenny, with Job Jenny I should say, Jenny Foss, the first step is usually the online application system. A lot of times we blame HR, who are people, for things that something a system may have kicked in or kicked out.

Mac Prichard:    I'm glad you brought that up because HR departments aren't going away, so we have to work with them whether we're hiring managers or applicants. Let's talk about how you do that and some effective strategies. Let's start. How do you recommend listeners approach an HR department? What's a good way of getting started?

Melissa Anzman:    

Absolutely. There is a science to working with HR. Unfortunately, the science is going to be tweaked a little bit depending on the company and the size and all of that fun stuff. There's sort of three ways that you can work really well with them in order to get your foot in the door, in order to move along in the hiring process, and so on. The most important one is understanding and realizing your own personal value proposition.

HR ... If you sort of put your feet in their shoes, HR gets a ton of resumes. Lots of qualified candidates particularly for super cool awesome jobs, right? They're also getting those resumes and applications from people who are cream of the crop. Top tier, high potential, great talent. It's up to you to market yourself and really showcase for them. Make it easy for them to say yes to you. Know what value you bring to the table and tell them that early and often and repeatedly during the process.

Mac Prichard:   

What are some practical ways that people can do that? I'm an applicant, I'm not afraid to bang my own drum, or toot my own horn, rather. How can I do that? I've got to fill out a form, I may not be able to get somebody on the phone. What have you as being on the other side of that door inside an HR department seen work well?

Melissa Anzman:    

Your resume is your first tool if you're going to go blind. I would say the thing on your resume is I don't want to read a bullet point list of skill sets you have. That doesn't help me as an HR person. What I want to understand ... I want to see results driven, metric driven information on your resume of what you've done. That whole "show, don't tell me" is so important when you're applying.

Another way you can do that is how you follow up. That's sort of the second thing of networking and outreaching. How you follow up, you have to consistently reinforce your value proposition. This is why you have to meet me before you move any further in the process. If you can convince an HR person to do that, you'll go far along because they are sort of that gatekeeper.

To do that, you just have to showcase who you uniquely are. It's your approach, it's leveraging all the tools in your toolbox. If you're online, making sure that you're positioning yourself as a subject matter expert in that field. If you're using just a resume, it's super detail oriented, data driven, metric driven information, so that the HR person is not guessing your capabilities.

You also have a great platform on LinkedIn. LinkedIn allows them to research you whether it's for a first time or they're just looking or they're a sourcer or maybe they're following up on a resume. You really want that to be a good calling card for you as well.

Mac Prichard:   

Know your value, document it with metrics, facts, and figures, and put that in your application, but don't stop there. Look at the other opportunities you have online to make your case through your LinkedIn profile as well as demonstrating your expertise, your leadership, in the field through blogging or participating in forums. Tactics like that. Is that step number one?

Melissa Anzman:  

Absolutely. That is step number one. I would just like to say one more thing on that. When you're writing anything that goes towards your value proposition, make sure each sentence answers the question, "So what?" Why would the resume reader or the HR person care about that sentence or bullet point or metric or whatever that is? Get really tight on your messaging because you don't have a hundred times to make an impression. You really have one. Be super clear and concise and efficient with your words and answer "So what?" every time.

Mac Prichard: 

Great advice, Melissa. Now, what's the next step? The application's in, the online platforms are in good shape. What should an applicant be doing next to connect with HR and get beyond them and in front of the hiring manager?

Melissa Anzman:            

Yeah. The second step is one that I personally dreaded for a long time myself. It's kind of the tried and true step, but it's about networking and outreach. I think the word "networking" in this instance is a terrible fit because what you have to do is you kind of have to pursue or make some outreach or try and get on a first date essentially, right?

You're trying to get this HR person interested enough in you that they want to date you, that they'll ask you out. To do that, you don't just send an email to someone. Although now, you probably do less than that with all the apps out there, but when you're talking about work, you have to follow up. I don't mean you send an email to the [email protected] website.

You spend ... It takes ten minutes or so on LinkedIn and Google to find the email address of a hiring manager or find the email address of the recruiter. You send them a note and you express your interest. You think about your value proposition and you show it to them in your email super short and sweet. Let them have their contact information. You've sort of opened the door for a first date.

Mac Prichard: 

Melissa, I just want to pause there because I can imagine some listeners saying, "Okay. All I have is [email protected]. How do I find the name of the recruiter or the hiring manager? I can figure out how to get their email address once I know the name, but what's the secret to getting that name?"

Melissa Anzman:  

Yeah. I mean, getting the name is hard and I have some suggestions on a post that you can definitely include in the show notes, Mac. Essentially, you have to think like a researcher here. This is kind of a skill that went to the way ... I'm going to sound really old now ... Went to the wayside with the internet and Google.

You need to do your research. That's about searching for the company ... Here's how I'd do it on LinkedIn. I'll search for the company and I'll put sort of the company and the department that I'm interested in, or the department and recruiter. Then, you'll see a list of names that pop up that fit that thing and you want to filter it down to "current", etc, etc.

When you start looking at profiles, LinkedIn gives you some suggestions on the right-hand side. I tend to find the suggestions to be super helpful because good recruiters in particular usually have their "I focus on this area at this company." You can usually find pretty easily the recruiter's name by just narrowing it down on LinkedIn in that regard.

Mac Prichard: 

Good. That's step number two. You've found the person you want to connect with, you've thought about ways to network with them and reach out to them directly, and make that case. What do you do next, Melissa?

Melissa Anzman:      

The next thing is something that people forget. Just completely forget. That's really understanding and knowing your audience. Not all people on the hiring process timeline or the candidate experience are created equal. When you're dealing with a front line, so the first point of contact recruiter, they don't know details about the job you're trying to do.

What I mean by that is they don't know the nitty gritty details of the technical aspects of your role. They have fifty, sixty ... I don't know, hundreds sometimes, at some companies of requisitions open across their table. Their expertise is to recruit, not to know your department. When you talk to them, they are looking for culture fit, your personality ... They're trying to understand if you have the basic skills for the role, so you're using the right jargon and words that describe the position as someone else has described it to them.

They are not at all interested in knowing about the super nitty gritty details that make no sense to anybody outside your industry or your position much less, during that process. As soon as you start talking to that person around things that make no sense to them, you've lost them. They're already tuning out.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. Technical skills matter, but save that for your conversation with the hiring manager. I just want to clarify, Melissa. When we're talking about recruiters, we're talking about people within an HR department who are tasked ... Whose job it is to recruit people for that company. We're not talking about headhunters who might be under contract working outside the company.

Melissa Anzman:              

Absolutely. Sorry for that. Yeah. When I say recruiter, it's always that internal resource within HR that's responsible for getting people in the door for the role.

Mac Prichard: 

Okay. Now, I'm often asked, what about just bypassing HR altogether? I think sometimes people think, "If I could just go around the HR department and get in front of the hiring manager, all my problems would be solved." What's your reaction to that?

Melissa Anzman:  

Well, it's hard. There isn't a one size fits all there. I would say be very careful if you do that, right? You're not going to be creating any friends or anything of that regard to do that. Also, at most companies particularly in different states and just sort of what state laws are and all of that fun stuff, you do have to go through the official hiring process to get an offer.

I am all for you making that first connection, that first introduction, that first outreach, whatever it is with the hiring manager directly, but you should also instantly get on the right train. What I mean by that is get onto the process that the company wants you to go through. If you're a great candidate and you're sort of someone that that person, the hiring manager, loves anyway, it's going to make no difference other than the fact that you're going to actually walk into a company with friends instead of having HR as an enemy.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. I also hear from people who ask me, "What can I do after I've applied for a job and I get a rejection letter from HR? Should I call the human resources department? Should I still try to reach out to the hiring manager?" What options do people have at that point in the process?

Melissa Anzman:

Well, I think it depends on how far along in the process you got. If you just applied and got an auto-generated email or even a personal email saying, "Thank you for your application. We're going in a different direction", that's where the conversation should end. There's nothing you can glean from it. Maybe it was an internal candidate that they hired, maybe you were too late in the process. I mean, there's just so many things and they're not going to tell you. That would be that case.

If you're further along ... Let's say you've been interviewing with them. You've seen somebody in person or you've talked to someone in person. I don't really recommend that you continue the conversation unless something odd happened. Maybe you're just sort of not feeling like you got closure or an answer or something like that, that would be the only case where I would say continue.

Usually, they are restricted by some laws to tell you what went wrong in the interview process, right? They are going to be very careful if you ask them that question. They're not really apt to helping you improve your interviewing skills going forward unless you created a good rapport with that recruiter.

Mac Prichard:  

Okay. Now if you are invited in for an interview, often you start with the human resources department and then, advance on to a conversation with the hiring manager. Are those two different conversations and should people prepare for them in different ways?

Melissa Anzman: 

Absolutely. They are night and day different conversations, or they should be. If they're not ... Take a step back and level set yourself going forward. When you're interviewing with HR ... You need to talk about you and yourself and your personality and your strengths. That kind of focus. Really high level, "I'm a fit for this organization."

When you move to a conversation with the hiring manager, they're thinking about different things. They want to know ... Can you do the job? They're going to ask themselves what a pain or not pain you will be to manage. I know I'm not supposed to say that, but it's true, right? When we're trying to hire someone, we're like, "How much work is this going to be for me?"

You want to make sure your conversations are geared in that regard. They also want to understand more about you as a person. What makes you tick, what motivates you, if you would fit on the team that's already there, as well as those technical skills. It's a very different conversation with the hiring manager than it should be with HR.

Mac Prichard: 

What's the best way to follow up on those separate conversations?

Melissa Anzman:   

I always believed in a thank you note. I have a little template on my site which, again, feel free to include, of when to send an email thank you versus when to send an actual thank you note and when in the process. Any time you talk to or meet with somebody, you absolutely need to follow up. Email is a little bit more instantaneous, so that's great for a lot of different situations, but there are definitely some levels and some roles that you want to write an actual handwritten thank you note.

Mac Prichard:   

We'll be sure to include a link to that page in the show notes. We're coming to close of our interview, Melissa. What are some other things that our listeners should think about?

Melissa Anzman: 

Yeah. I would just say when you're interviewing, we have a tendency as we're very nervous in an interview to ramble on. It's a skill you can absolutely learn and get better at. I always recommend that you practice what I call "STARS". That's a pretty typical term, but it means everything that you answer, every single answer in a interview conversation can be framed around a specific situation or task, the action that you took, and the result to the company for it.

That's only three sentences if you want to be super efficient to get your point across. By doing so, not only are you adding a lot of value to the conversation and making that HR person or the hiring manager love you because they know you know what you're doing, but you're also keeping them engaged in the conversation, which has a lot longer of a tale for your winning, I guess, through the process ... Through your success through the process, I should say.

Mac Prichard: 

That's terrific, Melissa. I know that we've been talking about human resource departments, but ... Would you have different advice if an agency doesn't have an HR department, particularly, the smaller employers? Are there things that would be appropriate to do that you haven't described here?

Melissa Anzman: 

Yeah. I mean, I think when an organization is smaller and don't have the HR resources, usually the hiring manager or someone else is managing the process. You're almost cutting out a middleman a lot of the time, which is great, which is in the favor of the candidate every single time. Instead of following up with HR, go directly to the person that you should be working with or outreach directly to the hiring manager because you have that opportunity.

I would still say make sure you know your audience in the interview process. It may not be an HR person, but maybe you're meeting with a finance person who's going to care a lot about a lot of different things than your hiring manager. Just keep that in mind, but it will play out a little differently by cutting out a middleman.

Mac Prichard:   

Great. Well, thank you, Melissa. You can find Melissa online at LaunchYourJob.com. You can also buy her book "How to Land a Job: Secrets of an HR Insider" at her website and on Amazon.com. We'll be sure to include links to your website and your book in the show notes. Thank you again, Melissa, for joining us.

Melissa Anzman: 

Thanks so much for having me, Mac.

Mac Prichard:

We're back with Ben and Cecilia. What did you two think? What were some of the most important points you heard Melissa make?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I got a lot out of that. I think she has ... An inside view that we don't hear a lot, particularly about not going around HR. Sometimes we hear it's a lot easier if you can get straight to the hiring manager, but clearly that will do more harm than good in the end if you get the job. I thought that was a really important tip.

Ben Forstag:  

I liked that she outlined the process to work with them because I think, in my perspective, it's always been if you send your job application to "careers@", it is the black hole. Nothing's going to happen to it. I've just stopped doing that in my own job searches, but it does sound like there is a process and that if you follow the right steps, you can get some traction going through HR.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah. I think that's an important point and to know the process. There's a leadership talk I attended once at a conference. The one thing I remember ... It was delivered by a retired US Naval Officer. He said, "Learn the system and make the system work for you." Having that insider perspective, Cecilia, I agree is really important. Knowing that process and doing the homework to uncover it and understand it can pay benefits for you down the line.

Good. Well, thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, visit us at macslist.org. You can sign up for our free newsletter there and you'll find more than a hundred new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, please help us by leaving a review and rating at iTunes. This will help others discover our show and help us reach more job seekers. Thank you for listening.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

If you want a job that lets you make a difference in the world you’ll likely consider a career in public service.  

A government job--at the local, state or federal level--can offer you the opportunity to address issues that matter, such as education,  the environment, and homelessness. You can find positions suited to every interest and skill, from art history to zoology. And the work itself can be gratifying.

But getting your first government job can be challenging. The application process usually requires patience and persistence. And managing a career in public service requires thoughtful planning.

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Kirsten Wyatt, assistant city manager of West Linn, Oregon, co-founder of the organization Emerging Local Government Leaders, and host of the GovLove podcast. Kirsten is passionate about helping talented professionals enter the public service sector and shares her tips for anyone looking to get a job in government.

In this 38-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Kirsten Wyatt (@kowyatt & @elgl50)Assistant City Manager, West Linn, Ore.Co-Founder, Emerging Local Government Leaders?West Linn, Ore.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Mac Prichard:

This is "Find Your Dream Job", the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List and by our book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond". We have a new edition of the book. It's coming out in February and you can learn more about it by visiting macslist.org/ebook.

Thanks for joining us today. This week on "Find Your Dream Job", we're talking about government work, how to get it, and how to manage a public service career. If you want a job that lets you make a difference in the world, you're likely to consider a career in public service. A government job can offer you the opportunity to address issues that matter such as education, the environment, and homelessness.

You can also find positions suited to every interest and skill from art history to zoology and the work itself can be very gratifying. Getting your first government job, however, can be challenging. The application process usually requires patience and persistence and managing a career in public service requires thoughtful planning. If you're thinking about applying for a federal job, Ben Forstag has a website that you'll want to check out.

It uses employee surveys to tell you which agencies are the best places to work for different groups, including veterans and women and others. Not sure how to get started pursuing a career in public service? Cecilia Bianco has a set of steps you can follow to get clear about what you need to do next. Then, we'll turn to this week's expert, Kirsten Wyatt. She's the co-founder of a national association for government professionals.

Kirsten will share her advice about how to navigate the government application process and she'll tell you what you need to do to have a successful public sector career. Before we get started, I want to give a big shout out to Cecilia, who last night wowed a crowd here in Portland that was interested in finding work in the nonprofit world. Cecilia, what were some of the ... Did you have a good experience?

Cecilia Bianco:

I did. Yeah. It was a great experience and it was a good crowd. I think they were really engaged with learning about how Portland is different and how you can get a nonprofit job specifically in Portland, which as you know, is mostly through networking and informational interviews.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah. Any other key takeaways you want to share? Either from your presentation or your conversations with people afterwards?

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah. I think the biggest takeaway for me is that people know they need to network, but they don't know how to get started. I think talking about that with them and giving them practical advice was the most important part of the night.

Mac Prichard:

Good. Ben, I know you and Cecilia organize these events throughout the course of the year. Can you tell our listeners more about them and how they can learn more about it?

Ben Forstag:

Sure. Each year, Mac's List organize four different events on our own. They're quarterly based. These tend to be focused around specific topic areas. How to get a job in communications, for example. We also partner with the Nonprofit Association of Oregon and a local incubator group called Hatch Oregon to put on a series of presentations called "Career Pathways to Doing Good in Oregon". That's what Cecilia was speaking at last night and that also happens four times a year.

Mac Prichard:

Good. Well, visit the website if you'd like to learn more about those events and let's turn to this week's regular segments. Every week, Ben is out there exploring the internet looking for blogs, tools, and podcasts that you can use to help in your job search. Ben, what have you discovered for us this week?

Ben Forstag:

Mac, I am so excited to share the resource this week. This is a website I found about three months ago, but I've been holding onto it just for today's podcast. I'm super excited to share it.

Mac Prichard:

I can see you vibrating in the seat.

Ben Forstag:

Yeah. This combines two of my favorite things. One is public service jobs and the other one is data. As you and Cecilia know, I love data. I love looking at spreadsheets and all that kind of stuff.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah. You're definitely a number cruncher.

Ben Forstag:

The resource this week is a website called bestplacestowork.org. This is like a Glassdoor website specifically for federal government agencies. If you are interested in working for the federal government, this is a website you can go to to learn about the internal culture of the government agencies.

Mac Prichard:

Great. For the benefit of our listeners who might not know about Glassdoor, it's a website that has information from employees of companies who share insights into supervisors' styles ... Good bosses, bad bosses, basically, as well as information about salaries.

Ben Forstag:

Yeah, and so this is specifically just the federal government. Each year, the Office of Personnel Management, which essentially manages the entire federal workforce, conducts this survey of all federal workers across three hundred and eighty nine different federal organizations. I mean, they ask a series of questions related to employee satisfaction, employee commitment, and other topics that would measure how good of a workplace this is.

The questions they ask are things like, "Do you recommend your organization as a good place to work? Are creativity and innovation rewarded in your agency? How satisfied are you with your involvement in decisions that affect your work?" These are really kind of getting at what is the day to day experience for workers in these agencies. From these responses, they assign employee satisfaction scores to each federal agency and then, rank the agencies against each other.

Best Places to Work is where the public can go to review all of these scores. Agency rankings are sortable by multiple demographic groups. For example, you can look for the best federal workplaces for women or the best agencies for veterans or the best places for younger workers versus those for more seasoned employees. All these rankings come from the employees themselves saying what their experience there is.

Mac Prichard:

Were there any surprises when you looked at the data or agencies that stood out, Ben?

Ben Forstag:

Well, I was actually going to ask you and Cecilia here what you thought of all the federal agencies out there, do you want to take a guess at which agency had the highest employee satisfaction score?

Cecilia Bianco:

Oh, that's tough. I think I'm going to pivot to Mac on this one. I have no idea.

Ben Forstag:

Okay, Mr. Government Work.

Mac Prichard:

I'm guessing it's not the Veterans Administration.

Ben Forstag:

It is not the Veterans Administration.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah. Okay. I give up.

Ben Forstag:

Top ranked for the last three years is NASA, which is awesome.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah.

Ben Forstag:

They're loving sending people up into space. That's good.

Mac Prichard:

Well, I know we may be dating ourselves here because these podcasts will live on for a long time, but if you've seen "The Martian", that is like a love letter to NASA. It's one of the few movies coming out of a Hollywood studio I've seen in recent years that shows government doing a good job, government actually working.

Ben Forstag:

Hmm. Interesting. I'll have to check that out.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah.

Ben Forstag:

Do you want to take a guess at what the worst ranked agency is? Major agency?

Cecilia Bianco:

Mac, any ideas?

Mac Prichard:

I don't want to disparage any agency, but-

Cecilia Bianco:

Yes.

Mac Prichard:

Guessing and that not being correct.

Ben Forstag:

Well, I'll go out there. I thought it was going to be the IRS.

Mac Prichard:

Oh.

Ben Forstag:

It's not. It's actually the Department of Homeland Security.

Cecilia Bianco:

Hmm.

Ben Forstag:

Again, this is all from the employees themselves voting on their own experience. One of the interesting things here is they rank all these different organizations, the large agencies, the mid-size agencies, and the small agencies. One of the things I really liked about this website because I am a dork like that is all of the small little sub-agencies that exist out there.For example, the top ranked small agency, or sub-component, was the Surface Transportation Board, which I've never heard of. The worst rated government agency of all the categories for every demographic group? This one scares me a little bit. The Defense Nuclear Facility Safety Board.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yikes.

Ben Forstag:

The folks who are working there are not happy.

Cecilia Bianco:

That's not good.

Ben Forstag:

No, it isn't.

Mac Prichard:

What's scary too is I've actually heard of the Surface Transportation Board. I've worked for three transportation projects in my career, so I'm familiar with that one.

Ben Forstag:

Okay. If you're interested in working in the federal government, you should definitely check out bestplacestowork.org to get a feel for the culture in each agency. Even if you're not planning on working for Uncle Sam, I think you can find some good value on this site. Check out the methodology section and the questions included in the employee survey.I talked about some of those questions earlier. There's about fifty four of them that they ask. These are the kind of questions you should be thinking about when you're evaluating your own work situation or perhaps, a prospective employer. It really gives you a sense of what the culture might be in those organizations.

Mac Prichard:

Good. Well, thank you, Ben. Do you have an idea for Ben? You can reach him at his email address [email protected]. He's waiting to hear from you and he may share your idea on the show. Now, it's time to hear from you, our listeners. Cecilia Bianco, our community manager, is here to answer one of your questions. Cecilia, what's your question of the week?Cecilia Bianco:

The question today is, "What's the best way to start my job search?" This week, I know we're talking about government jobs, but I'm going to give you some basic and important tips to get your job search started that will be applicable to whatever field you're interested in. Because I speak with so many people who are looking for work, I pick up the most common problems that they're dealing with.

What I've been hearing a lot lately is people are starting their job search before they actually know what they really want to focus on and what job they really want to be in. This is making it a much longer and more painful process for them. Mac, I know you talk to a lot of people as well. Have you noticed this?

Mac Prichard:

I have. I see it not only in conversations I have with people who tell me about their job search, but frankly, I've experienced it myself. Early in my career, I struggled with goal setting and being clear about what I wanted and probably spent far more time than I needed to on different searches as a result. I'm glad you're bringing this up.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah. It can make it really hard. My first suggestion to people having this problem is, before you even start your job search, take some inventory of yourself and what you really want from a career. The easiest way to start thinking about this is to really figure out your main strengths and your main goals for what job you want right now.

With your strengths, I don't mean thinking about a mental list of your skills, which we see people do all the time. I mean knowing how to talk about your strengths to a potential employer before you start applying to jobs, so being prepared with examples and past evidence that show your strengths rather than listing them off.

As you guys know, almost every job on our list is asking for writing and communication skills, but employers don't want to see a resume or cover letter or hear you in a interview just say, "I'm a strong communicator." They want you to show them rather than tell them. If you're prepared and you know your strengths and you know how you can prove them, that's the best way to nail down what type of job you're going to be good at.

For this example specifically, you want to really think about any past awards you've received, successful campaigns you've been a part of, if you've increased an online following or even revenue through communications work that you've done. That's one main way to narrow down what your real strengths are is by being able to prove them.

Another reason it's important to know your strengths this well is because you want to find a job that you're going to be good at. Ben, you've touched on this in past episodes. Can you reiterate your thoughts on why people should be in jobs that really fit their strengths?

Ben Forstag:

Yes, Cecilia. I think no one likes going to work and being unsuccessful day in and day out at their job. Any time you can get a job where you're exercising your strengths, you're always going to end up being more productive and probably happier at the end of the day. I talked about the strengths finder test several weeks ago on the podcast and I think what's so great about that is it helps people reframe some of their personality types around strengths and gives them tips on operationalizing how they could use those strengths in the workplace.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah, definitely. I've found that to be true in my current job. I know my strengths are the skills that I need to excel at it, so it makes me happier throughout the day as I'm getting things done.

Mac Prichard:

I'd like to add, Cecilia. I so agree with your point about the importance of showing rather than telling because when people do that, they have a terrific advantage, particularly in the interview process. One thing I've seen candidates do when I've been on interview panels that allows them to show rather than tell is they ask questions about the needs of the employer.They say, "What are your biggest problems?" What happens when that the employer responds is that you get an opportunity to think and reflect about how you have approached that problem before and to tell a story. Not to say, "I've got great communication skills", for example, but "I had an experience like that earlier in my career. Let me tell you how we approached it and how we solved that problem." That's a very unique thing to be able to do and helps you distinguish yourself from the other candidates in the process. It's to your point about the importance of showing rather than telling.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah. I think the way to get good at that is by knowing your strengths really well. That's really the starting point.

Mac Prichard:

Absolutely.

Cecilia Bianco:

The next thing I want to talk about is really knowing your goals because that is really, really crucial. I don't mean long-term where you want to be in ten years. I mean your goals for your career right now and what type of job you want to be in. You want to think about the company culture that you're going to enjoy the most, the impact you want to be making, and what your day to day responsibilities are going to be that you really want to be in charge of and you're going to enjoy day in and day out.

If you think about these things and you have them nailed down, when you go to look at a list of three hundred jobs, it really makes it easier to focus in on the ones that are a right fit for you. When you go into an interview or write your application for a job you know you're the right fit for, we've found that you appear more genuine and you're more likely to get the job because the employers can pick up on that.

It's important to be authentic and show you really are the right fit. You're not just saying you're good at this, you're good at that. You really are good at this and you really are good at that and you really want to be at a company that supports a certain type of environment. Those are my main tips for how you can get started. Mac and Ben, anything to add?

Ben Forstag:

I just want to reiterate your focus on being focused and knowing what you want to be doing for a career. We talk to a lot of job seekers and I completely understand the mentality of "I don't want to close off any options, so I'll do anything" or "I'm open to any opportunity". I understand that. I've been there.At the end of the day, I think employers really want someone who's focused and committed to certain types of work instead of the person who'll do anything or the jack of all trades. It really does shorten the job search process when you do find focus and passion behind that focus.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah. I think that's a very important point you're making, Cecilia. This idea that you really do need to be clear about what you want because employers will pick up on that. They'll pick up on your energy, as you say. You just make it easier for employers to say yes to you when you focus on your strengths and what you're good at and what your passionate about.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah. That's definitely true. Also to Ben's point, when you're focusing really hard on a specific type of job, it makes your next steps easier, which the next steps when you're starting a job search is to target organizations and people you need to talk to that can help you. Really overall, just get some focus before you start.

Mac Prichard:

Okay. Well, that's very good advice. Thanks, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, please email her. Her address is [email protected]. The segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the 2016 edition of "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond". We're making the complete Mac's List guide even better by adding new content and making the book available on multiple platforms.

When we launch the new version in February, you'll be able to access "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond" on your Kindle, Nook, iPad, and other digital devices. You'll also be able to get a paperback edition for the first time. Whatever the format though, our goal is the same. To give you the tools and tips you need to get meaningful work. To learn more, visit macslist.org/ebook and sign up for our ebook newsletter. You'll get updates, exclusive book content, and we'll provide you with special pre-sale prices.

Let's turn to our expert this week, Kirsten Wyatt. She is the co-founder of ELGL, an acronym that stands for Emerging Local Government Leaders. ELGL is a national organization with chapters across the country that connects, communicates, and educates about public service. Now, Kirsten writes frequently about government for the ELGL blog. She also hosts the GovLove podcast and serves as the assistant city manager in West Linn, Oregon. She studied politics at Willamette University and earned a master's in public administration from the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill. Kirsten, thanks for coming to the Mac's List studio and joining us today.

Kirsten Wyatt:

Thanks. It's great to be here.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah. Let's start with some broad questions. Why should somebody consider a career in government?

Kirsten Wyatt:

Well, I think the thing that's amazing about a career in government, especially local government, is that no matter your interest or no matter your passion area, you can find a job. As I was getting ready for this podcast, I was poking around on the county website. They're hiring dentists, they're hiring engineers, they're hiring levy experts, they're hiring budget analysts. Really whatever your passion is, government has a place for you. I think that's really exciting because then you get to have a career where you're exploring your passion, but you're also doing something to benefit the greater good. To me, a local government career is tremendously rewarding. You have a lot of abilities to learn new things and grow your career and grow your personal self. To me, that's why I've pursued a career in local government and why I always encourage other people to look to local government.

Mac Prichard:

Good. If someone is at the start of their career or they're thinking about entering into public service, what are some of the issues they should think about as they lay the foundation for a career in state or local or the federal government?

Kirsten Wyatt:

Well, I think it's important to remember that sometimes you don't just get to walk into a job. This is true in all industry sectors, but in government, often there are going to be minimum requirements related to getting a job. It's important to make sure as you are finishing your college career or building out your resume that you find some ways to get your foot in the door and get some of that relevant experience that government wants you to have when they're hiring.

Mac Prichard:

Let's get tactical for a moment. What are some steps that people can take to get that foot in the door?

Kirsten Wyatt:

One of my favorite stories is of people who decide they want to make that jump into government and so they take time on their own and volunteer at the local level, be it on a city budget committee, on a local planning commission. Using that, their free time, to get that experience that local government wants to see on a resume. You may be coming out of undergrad and you maybe have a lot of really theoretical or philosophical perspectives, but you don't have that kind of boots on the ground perspective.

Taking some time, your own time, to get those relevant skills is really important. I love hearing the stories about someone who dedicated a year of Tuesday nights volunteering on a historic resources board because they really wanted to become a historic planner or something like that. I think that those types of things take a little bit of effort, but it really pays off in the end.

Mac Prichard:

I've seen that happen in the world of politics, too, where people who are active in their neighborhood volunteer for a committee and then, end up working for an elected official at city hall.

Kirsten Wyatt:

Absolutely. That's a great example, too.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah. What advice would you have for somebody who wants to get their foot in the door and maybe they want to make a mid-career change?

Kirsten Wyatt:

That's a tough one. I think one thing we've found from ELGL is finding a way to build a network in local government or in government is a really critical way to make sure you're building out those connections, so people can start to realize that the skills that you have built up over the years in the private sector are transferable to local government. That may mean building a network where the city manager of a certain city knows that you are a top notch communications expert.

Maybe you've only worked for a consulting firm or a private company, but you're able to take those skills and make that transfer over to government. That's what we really try to promote through ELGL is making those sincere real connections regardless of what industry you're in. If you have an interest in public service, we want to help you make those relationships.

Mac Prichard:

Let's talk about the hiring process. When I talk to people who are interested in breaking into government whether they're coming out of college or graduate school or they want to make a mid-career switch, they tell me that they're intimidated. The process seems opaque, hard to understand. Break it down for our listeners. How do government agencies hire and what should people keep in mind when they're starting that application process?

Kirsten Wyatt:

Government hiring processes are horrible, but they are getting better. It was just as recently as two years ago that my own city, we created our first fillable form for our job application. Now, I'm proud to say that our local government as well as many others in the region are adapting a standardized application aggregator called NEOGOV. You can just fill in all of your information and then, use it to apply for many government level jobs.

I was listening to your earlier podcasts and I am also a font snob. What I have found in local government that's hard is that they want you to put your application materials into a standardized format. That doesn't give you a lot of room for creativity or to show your flair. It's also aggravating because you may fill out an application for one city and then, you have to go in and fill out a whole other application for another city, typing in the exact same information.

You don't get to go and pass out a resume. There's a different process and approach and that's just because government wants to be standardized across all of our hiring processes. It can seem more tedious, I think, than just uploading or submitting a resume.

Mac Prichard:

Once people ... If they're fortunate enough to live in a community where you can actually apply online or whether they print out a form and fill it out by hand, what are some strategies and tactics they should keep in mind when they do that?

Kirsten Wyatt:

Well, my number one advice is to understand the form of government that you're applying to. I have seen so many people contact the mayor about a job that they're interested in in a council manager form of government, which is just entirely inappropriate because the elected officials have no role in hiring. Same thing with really wanting a job, but not looking at the hierarchy or the way the organization is structured.

When you're making that call to say, "Hey, I'd love to learn more. I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee and talk about this job", you're calling the entirely wrong person. I think that sometimes just having that really basic self awareness of the job that you're applying for and then, how you go about building that connection or that ... Show your involvement with that organization, you really need to be aware of what you're doing because you can just shoot yourself in the foot right off the bat.

Mac Prichard:

Okay, so don't call the mayor.

Kirsten Wyatt:

Don't call the mayor.

Mac Prichard:

Don't call the city counselor.

Kirsten Wyatt:

No.

Mac Prichard:

Who might you call? Who would it be appropriate to reach out to? Say you see a job at the local parks department and you're very excited about it. You're Leslie Knope. You want to be there.

Kirsten Wyatt:

Well, I think, first and foremost, you reach out to your network.

Mac Prichard:

Okay.

Kirsten Wyatt:

You reach out to that network you've already established and maybe there's someone that works in the adjacent city parks department. You reach out to them first and you say, "Give me the scoop on this job." Then, once you've realized that it's a really healthy and stable environment, then you potentially reach out if your person in your network advises you to to the hiring manager and just say, "I'd love to pick your brain. Learn more."

You also need to be careful and make sure you don't overstep and seem like you're trying to sidestep the actual process that's going on, which again, gets back to why having that network is so important. A great example. In Tualatin recently ... Which is a really well run organization. They have one of the best city managers in the nation. It's one of those places where you want to work. They recently had two jobs come open in a very short span of time. It became really widely known in the local government community before they even advertised those positions. A lot of that is because Tualatin has put themselves into the center of a network where they're sharing information constantly about the work they're doing and the opportunities they have. Once you're able to insert yourself into that network, you're going to find out about things before they're even posted or advertised.

Mac Prichard:

Networking matters. We had another guest on the show, Kirsten. Jenny Foss talked about applicant tracking systems that are very common in the private sector. These are automated processes that look at resumes or other application materials identifying keywords. Is that a practice in government as well?

Kirsten Wyatt:

As we become more sophisticated and we're using tools like NEOGOV, it's becoming more possible or more likely that you're going to see an application screening process that's going to look for those keywords that were in the job description. Kind of echoing what she had mentioned in the podcast, making sure that you're tailoring your resume to that job description that's in that system is key. I mean, but that's kind of common sense. You don't want to just blanket the world with resumes.You want to make sure that if you're applying for a specific job, that you're tailoring your skills and abilities to match. Sometimes with the volume of resumes and applications that are coming in, there needs to be a rational nexus between your application and the job that is being advertised. I think that that's just ... That's not rocket science. I mean, you can go through the job description and find those keywords and make sure that you pull out the talent skills and abilities that you have that match those.

Mac Prichard:

I think that's very sound advice. When I first started applying for jobs in Oregon government when I came to Portland many years ago, I didn't have much success. Someone coached me about the importance of including keywords in my application materials and it made all the difference. I found I started getting interviews after I did that.When people after they've done the networking, they've gotten the lay of the land, maybe they've gotten their name in front of the right people, they've filled out the application materials. Now, they're walking into an interview. What should they expect when applying for a government job? What's different about this world and how can they prepare for it?

Kirsten Wyatt:

I'm seeing a rapidly changing way of interviewing in local government. I think a lot of this is because we're seeing more of a community interest, especially in certain level positions, to make sure that it's not just that that person is going to fit well with the existing staff, but how are they going to interact with their citizen advisory groups or citizen groups that they are expected to work with?

In West Linn, I've seen interview panels that have been comprised just mainly of the supervisor and maybe one or two key staff people. When we get to that department head position or higher, I'm seeing panels, two or three panels, that take a good portion of the day. We're having citizens come in and sit on a panel, we're having peers that have the same position from other local government agencies sit on another panel, plus the department head team really trying to make sure that that fit is there.

I think local governments are becoming more aware that when you make an investment in an employee, you need to make sure you get it right the first time because it's a really expensive mistake when you hire a bad fit. I've seen local governments become stronger at building out a panel or an assessment center-type situation that really helps identify who's going to become a key part of the team.

I've also started to see for more technical positions, more testing and assessment, which I personally am a big fan of. When I was originally hired as a budget analyst in Virginia, I had to do a pretty extensive Excel test. At the time, I was a little surprised by that. In retrospect, it really helped them weed out people who didn't have just higher than average Excel skills. I'm a big fan of that, using those types of tests for finance positions and things like that.

Mac Prichard:

Just to go back to interview panels, Kirsten. When you served on those panels or you've talked to colleagues who have led them, what kind of candidates stand out? What do they do to break out of the pack and stand out as a candidate?

Kirsten Wyatt:

Well, with local government, it is so intensely unique. Every local government likes to think that they are amazing and the only local government that has the best library in the world or the best parks and rec department. They're proud of their history or their historic district or their urban renewal district. The candidates that stand out have done a healthy amount of research.It doesn't mean that they can sit there and recite every fund balance in every account, but it means that they have a real understanding of the community's values. Then, they weave that into their answers. If a community has a strong belief in their historic area, trying to make sure that your answers relate back to that value or that principle that that community holds dear, I think is important.

It shows that you've done some research. It shows that you understand the audience that you're talking to. A really easy way for candidates to do that, especially for those higher level positions, is just go to the budget document or the council goal list. Find out what the priorities are for that year and then, really tailor your responses in your interview to what you're read in those documents.

Mac Prichard:

What kind of role can an online presence play when someone is applying for a job? How can people use online tools to be successful?

Kirsten Wyatt:

This is something I find very fascinating because for a long time, I think those of us in government felt like we shouldn't have an online presence. That we needed to kind of be these really kind of stiff and boring bureaucrats. Lately, I'm hearing from more and more recruiters that they want to see people who have an online presence that reflects their passion and their interest in public service.

One recruiter even told me that they'll look through a Twitter profile. If you're sitting in an interview and you say, "I am passionate about economic development. Economic development is the most important thing and that's why I want this job." Then, they look at your Twitter feed and they realize that all you tweet about are the Kardashians and funny cat pictures, they start to question are you really talking the talk when you are applying for this job.

One thing that I've seen and that I've been very proud of from an ELGL perspective, but just also from seeing how, especially younger people are getting their foot in the door in local government, is using platforms like the Mac's List blog, like ELGL, to write and share information about their job hunt or about their career interests and then, parlay that into opportunities.

One of my favorite stories, and I know we've talked about Josh before, but a young man out of the University of Oregon wanted to work in government, but he had no experience. He had a ... I think just a general maybe political science degree. He needed to get his foot in the door and so, he started writing about informational interviews that we set up for him. ELGL would set him up with different people in the region and he would sit down with them and kind of pick their brain about their job.

It was his chance to kind of get some background about all of the different roles that local government can play. In the course of doing that and writing about it, he had an informational interview with the City of Portland. The woman at the City of Portland was very impressed with his writing ability, also his poise and his presence. She offered him a temporary job and then, that temporary job led to a full-time job.

Now, he's getting his master's in accounting and he has a lifetime of local government accounting in front of him, which may not sound that exciting, but I think it's really exciting for him. It's exciting for me to think about someone with that talent and that drive putting themselves out there and then, parlaying that into a full-time local government job.

Mac Prichard:

I remember that blog series very well. I think it was two or three years ago now.

Kirsten Wyatt:

It was.

Mac Prichard:

Can you remind me? What was the title? Was it "Josh is Looking for a Job"?

Kirsten Wyatt:

It was "Josh's Job Search".

Mac Prichard:

Right. What so impressed me about it was, I mean, he did the informational interviews and he wasn't afraid to reach out to some high level people. Local mayors and senior people in state government, but then, he went an extra step. He did something I hadn't seen done before, which was to write about it. By doing so, he just grew his circle of contacts and his network exponentially.

Kirsten Wyatt:

Well, and I think and as you've discussed in your podcast series "Writing Skills" ... It's something that we all want our employees to have, but sometimes it's really hard to measure because when you submit a writing sample, you submit the very best. When you're doing something where you're actively blogging or sharing information using some of these platforms that we have regionally, you're really showing that you can communicate clearly on the fly. That you're a great communicator.

We had another guy who graduated from one of the top MBA schools in the nation. He moved out to Portland with no job, which many people do. He took a job as a seasonal worker with the parks and rec department in Tigard. Then, by building out his network, by making sure people knew that he had skills and abilities beyond cleaning bathrooms and mowing lawns, he was able to find full-time work using his network that he built through ELGL with the City of Beaverton.

I think, again, it goes to show that sometimes you have to put yourself out there, maybe take a job that you think is beneath you or not exactly what you want. In the process, you're really showing that you're willing to work hard, get the experience you need and then, step into that role where you can make the difference.

Mac Prichard:

Okay. Well, I think that's a great spot to stop at. Our listeners can find Kirsten online at elgl.org. Also, at Twitter: @elgl50. Again, you'll be able to find these links in the show notes. Thanks for joining us today, Kirsten.

Kirsten Wyatt:

Wonderful. Thank you for having me.

Mac Prichard:

Take care.

We're back in the Mac's List studio with Ben and Cecilia. Tell me what do you two think were the most important takeaways that you got from our conversation with Kirsten?

Cecilia Bianco:

I really liked her story about Josh. I think it was a good story to show an example of how someone can show the writing skills that they have and communication skills while building their professional network, which is clearly key no matter what field you're in.

Mac Prichard:

I like that story, too. I remember reading those blog posts and Josh's personality really shone through. I found myself looking forward to the next installment in the series as it unfolded. How about you, Ben?

Ben Forstag:

I was excited to hear that governments are modernizing their application systems through the NEOGOV site and other automated tracking systems because I know that government hiring ... It's a really difficult process to navigate if you're not familiar with it. All that being said, even with the new systems, I know it's a difficult field to get into and so, I think Cecilia's point about networking is really important.

Mac Prichard:

Yeah. I also appreciated her points not only about networking, but just the picture she drew of the process and the different things you could do in reaching out to people, growing your network, how to manage the technical parts of the application. Again, I think I meet people who are interested in working for government, but getting started and navigating that process can be challenging. I think Kirsten has given our listeners a road map for how to move forward.

Well, thank you all for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, visit us at macslist.org. You can sign up there for our free newsletter with more than a hundred new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, you can help us by leaving a review and rating on iTunes. We have almost seventy ratings now and more than fifty comments. That's helped us stay in the top ten in the iTunes career chart. Thanks for listening.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

53 million Americans--one out of three workers--can be classified as freelance entrepreneurs.

A career as a freelancer offers lots of advantages. You work when and where you want. You set your own prices and keep the profits. You choose your clients and your coworkers. (And yes, you can work at home in your pajamas!)

A career as a freelancer has its challenges, too. You have sole responsibility for finding clients, project management, business operations, contracts, taxes, marketing, scheduling, and everything else in what is, essentially, your own small business.

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac chats with Rebecca Shapiro, an artist, illustrator, and career freelancer. Rebecca has worked with the Portland Freelancers Union and is the author of Work Independently & Live Connectedly: 52 Steps to Freelancing Freedom. She shares her experience in the gig economy and offers advice for starting and maintaining a successful career as a freelancer.

In this 32-minute episode you will learn:

This Week's Guest:

Rebecca Shapiro (@rebeccashapiro)Principal, Rebecca Shapiro Art and Rebecca Shapiro IllustrationAuthor, Work Independently & Live Connectedly: 52 Steps to Freelancing FreedomPortland, Ore.You can also connect with Rebecca on LinkedIn and Instagram.

Listener question of the week: 

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com

--

Mac Prichard:   

This is find your dream job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host and publisher of Mac's List.

Our show is brought to you by Mac's List. Your best online source for rewarding, creative and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You'll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice and our new book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond".

Thanks for joining us today. This week on Find Your Dream Job we're talking about freelance work. If you see three random people walking down a street in the United States, one of them likely does freelance work. Thirty-four percent of Americans, 53 million people in all, are freelancers according to a 2014 survey. Now, a career as a freelance worker offers lots of advantages. You work where and when you want. You set your own prices and you keep the profits. You choose your clients and your coworkers and, yes, you can work at home in your pajamas.

A career as a freelancers has its challenges too. You do all the administration and marketing for your business and this could take up to 25% or more of your time. You can't bill those hours to your clients. You also have to produce more revenue. Charging an hourly rate that equals your old annual salary won't cut it because now you have to cover your own sick leave, vacation, benefits, and payroll taxes. This may mean that you have to earn two to two and a half times the amount of your former salary.

In the next thirty minutes we'll address these and other important issues for freelance workers. Whether you're about to strike out on your own or you've been working for yourself since the Carter administration, Ben Forstag has found a website with ideas you can use to make any freelance business more efficient and profitable. If you're a freelance worker who is an artist, designer or film maker I don't have to tell you the difference a portfolio can make in landing your next gig. One reader asked us however, "Can I just present my work online or do I need a printed portfolio?" Cecilia Bianco has the answer.

Let's start as we do every week by checking with Mac's List team; Ben Forstag and Cecilia Bianco. Cecilia, Ben how are you two doing this week?

Ben Forstag:  

I'm doing awesome.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Doing good Mac.

Mac Prichard:   

Good. Well, it's a pleasure to see you here in the studio. This week we're talking about freelancing and I have to ask you both, have either one of you worked as a freelancer? Cecilia?

Cecilia Bianco:

No, I haven't but I've definitely considered it and I know a lot of people who have.

Mac Prichard:   

There are no freelance babysitting jobs in your past?

Cecilia Bianco: 

No.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. I haven't worked as a freelancer myself. I have taken the odd contract job while I look for a permanent position. Like you, I haven't worked as a freelancer. How about you Ben?

Ben Forstag:  

I've taken odd contract jobs between permanent positions, but when I think of freelancing I think of the folks who are doing this as an ongoing career. I've never done that. Actually, my wife is a freelancer and she has a rule in our house that one of us has to have a full-time, permanent stable job. Since she's already got the freelancing gig that leaves me to come into work everyday.

Mac Prichard:  

Yeah. Well, we're glad to have you. My wife, too, is a freelancer and we have the same arrangement. I imagine when we talk to our guest expert this week we'll hear more about how that can help a couple because often when one member of the couple has a permanent job they bring benefits, health insurance and other advantages to the table that help freelancers get going. Let's turn to our regular feature with Ben, who every week is exploring the internet looking for podcasts, books and other tools you can use in your job search.

Ben Forstag:   

Let me say up front that I don't know a whole lot about freelancing as a permanent career. In preparing for today's show, I reach out to some of my friends who are freelancers and asked them for suggestions about what blogs they read, what podcasts they listen to and so forth.

Today, I want to recommend a blog and an accompanying podcast that are designed to help people address some of the challenges that are inherent when they're running a freelancing business. The blog is called doubleyourfreelancing.com and it's written by Brennan Dunn, a long-time freelance software designer. The blog tackles questions like how to find clients, how to market yourself, how to price your services, how to manage projects and workflow, how to do your estimated quarterly taxes which I know is a challenge for my wife, and other basic tips on how to improve the efficiency of your freelancing business. Brennan only posts a handful of times each month, but each entry is really nicely written, well thought out and comprehensive. Some of the posts are almost long form in their length. You could spend fifteen, twenty minutes going through some of these posts. I particularly like the post entitled, "The best networking hack I've ever used." I'm not going to share with you what that hack is. You'll have to go and read the blog, but I thought it was a really interesting approach in how to make lasting connections with professional contacts. In his case, this is how to make connections that will turn into future business.

Brennan's blog has an affiliated podcast called, "The Business of Freelancing" which is available on iTunes. The focus here is on interviews with fellow freelancers and the discussions surround how to improve clients relations and business practices. It's a well produced podcast and they release episodes every two weeks or so. I suggest you check out these two resources. The blog is doubleyourfreelancing.com and the podcast, available on iTunes, is "The Business of Freelancing".

Mac Prichard:   

Thanks Ben. I had a chance to look at that website this week when you flagged it for us. I was impressed by the quality of the information and the large number of articles. I know people like to get content in different ways, so not only are there articles but there's a podcast. For those who like structure, there's also a course with a curriculum that looked very useful as well. Now it's time to hear from you, our listeners. Let's turn to Cecilia Bianco our community manager. It's time for her to answer one of your questions. Cecilia, what do you have for us this week?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Our question this week is, "Do I actually need an e-portfolio and a printed portfolio?" Personally, I think everyone should have an online portfolio. It's a more in depth and visual version of LinkedIn where you can expand on your skills, your past work and your personality. It's a great tool to show a potential employer why they want to interview you before they actually meet you. It's a brief look into who you are as a professional and it can be really important in securing an interview.

Ben Forstag:  

Cecilia, let me interrupt here. I know LinkedIn has a projects section, can you do most of what you're talking about on that tool?

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah, you definitely can do most of this on LinkedIn but an online portfolio is more of a personal website where you can showcase your brand and your personality in a more creative way. There's easy ways to do this using WordPress or Squarespace. Both platforms are super easy and low-cost. I think I pay $30 a year for my customized site. I think that being able to create a well put together personal website shows your skills as far as creativity and visual storytelling, which is another bonus to it. It's another thing for when employers Google you, because we know they all do, it adds something to Google when your name's searched and it's a great tactic to control your online reputation.

Mac Prichard:   

What about printed portfolios, Cecilia? I know most employers are going to Google people and look at their LinkedIn profile, but when you have a meeting with an employer do you think it makes sense to bring one in?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I think it depends on what field your in. Printed portfolios are really only necessary, in my opinion, for people in a visual field like photography or graphic design. Otherwise, it's really challenging to make it appealing to an employer. To bring in a portfolio full of written content is not that fun to look through and it's not that fun to create. In my senior year, we were required to make one and I majored in public relations, so a lot of my work was news releases and written content. Printing that out and arranging it nicely in a portfolio was pretty difficult and it just doesn't seem necessary in a written field when you can display that information online in a more appealing way. I think printed portfolios are necessary for some fields and not for others. Well, what do you think about that actually Mac because you run Prichard. Are you impressed when someone brings in a printed portfolio?

Mac Prichard:  

Generally, it's someone who is a designer and they will have a book with samples of their work. I do enjoy going through the book with them. The advantage of that is they're telling a story and they're sharing examples of their work to make their points about that story. I have seen those portfolios at a university that writers have used and I think there is some advantage in, again telling that story, it's a way of doing it but it's not the only way. The short answer to your question, Cecilia ,is I think it's a must for designers and photographers. There could be some value for writers, but I think there's so many opportunities to do that online and there's only so many hours in the day. I agree with you. I would give precedence to an online portfolio.

Cecilia Bianco: 

Yeah. I agree.

Mac Prichard:   

Thank you, Cecilia, and if you have a question for Cecilia you can email her day or night. Her email address is [email protected].

The segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's Lists Guides, publisher of our new book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond". The Mac's Lists Guide can be the tools you need to get the job you want. We show you how to crack the hidden job markets, stand out in a competitive field and how you can manage your career. The book has eight chapters and in each one experts share job hunting secrets like how to hear about jobs that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. To download the first chapter of the book for free visit macslists.org/macslistsguides.

Now, let's turn to this week's expert. Rebecca Shapiro is the author of, "Work Independently and Live Connectedly: 52 Steps to Freelancing Freedom". She's also a former regional organizer for the Freelancers Union and a fine artist, illustrator and community manager. Rebecca offers experiential art in public spaces and for events and she also makes custom illustrations for medical textbooks, e-books, murals and cards. Rebecca, thank you for joining us here today.

Rebecca Shapiro:  

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah, it a pleasure to and thank you for coming to the Mac's List studio. Let's start with freelancers in general. Is there a typical freelance worker out there in America today?

Rebecca Shapiro: 

Well, actually there's 53 million of us in the United States right now. One out of three workers is an independent worker, so they're a freelancer whether they're working part-time or full-time. There is a typical freelancer out there and I think there's a bunch of us because we are finding ways to create livelihood for ourselves.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. I think when people hear freelance they think a writer, someone in the creative field. What other kinds of careers might lend themselves to freelance work?

Rebecca Shapiro:

Well, that's a really good point because when I first started working with Freelancers Union I always considered myself an entrepreneur because I couldn't find any other word to describe what I was doing. I thought freelancers applied to copywriters and maybe a graphic designer, but really it's anybody who's working independently for themselves, like I said full-time or part-time, so it could be taxi drivers, babysitters. It could be somebody who is a copywriter, I've worked with a lot of copywriters, illustrators, web programmers. It's everybody. Anybody who is creating income for themselves is considered a freelancer.

Mac Prichard:   

Now, you're the author of a book about freelancing and you have practical tips in that book about what freelancers can do, in fact, one for every week of the year. What's striking about your book is its emphasis on community, relationships and collaboration. Can you tell us more about why you focus on those themes?

Rebecca Shapiro: 

Probably because if you don't have relationships you basically have yourself and you're unemployed. You need those relationships to have partnerships with other people so that you can work on projects together, to have clients and healthy robust relationships with those clients so they keep coming back. Then, the other relationship that I think is really important is the relationship with yourself. You really have to know yourself. I joke sometimes that working for yourself is almost like a spiritual path because you have to have so much awareness about who you are, the way that you work and what you like and what you don't like in order to have a healthy freelancing business.

Mac Prichard:  

Now, every time there's a recession I think when people lose work they think, "Well, maybe this is the time to strike out on my own." Is there a particular kind of mindset you need to be successful as a freelancer?

Rebecca Shapiro:   

Absolutely. You and I spoke about this earlier, I really have a soft spot for the people that have been laid off and have either been so discouraged that they can't find work or just kind of give up and they decide to go into freelancing. I think it's really important when you find yourself in that position, or if you're just choosing to go out on your own, that you find a community of freelancers in which to participate because you can have conversation with people and find out what's working and what isn't for them and build experience for yourself and figure out like, "Okay, this piece might work well for me. This piece isn't going to work so hot." You can put together, cobble together, this business for yourself so that you're successful.

Mac Prichard:   

Learning how to be a freelancer it's not only a mindset, but it requires a set of skills. I run two small businesses, Mac's List as well as a public relations company, and I had worked for large organizations for many years; non-profits and public agencies. I needed to learn how to create and run a business and that was different from the technical skills I had. Do you find that successful freelancers have to go through a similar process?

Rebecca Shapiro:    

Absolutely. In fact, the learning curve is really pretty big. That again is why the relationship building piece is so important that you sort of find your tribe or your educational group or your mentors that are going to help you be successful with your freelance business. Part of that is also finding your support team.

For example, taxes is something I'm not interested in nor am I very good at so I see my relationship with my CPA as a collaboration. It's a very good one and he makes sure that I don't get into trouble and that I save a lot of money on my taxes. That's one example. If you can find ... I think it's really important for you to to be able to realize if you're going out and becoming a freelancer or starting out look for communities that you can jump into and then definitely look for ways that you educate yourself on as many things as possible.

Some good places to look would be the classes at CreativeLive or on Skillshare. They have a lot of entrepreneurial business freelancing type classes that they teach as well as specific skills that you might need. Let's say that you wanted to go into graphic design but you were kind of wobbly in one area of it. You could look for some specific classes that would help you build up your skillset.

Mac Prichard: 

Okay. There are resources out there to help you with your technical skills, whatever service you might be offering to clients, but you also need to connect with others in the community to work on your business as well.

Rebecca Shapiro:  

Absolutely. I think the more support that you can get for setting up a healthy structure for your business the better. If you can learn how to do things like time management ... At lot of times when people ... And this is a key point, a lot of times when people are leaving their desk job they try and recreate that environment working on their own and it's not a very efficient way to work. Learning how to shift out of the worker mindset into "I actually run my own business mindset", there's a difference between those two. When you can go to groups, for example Freelancers Union has I think sixteen cities around the country where freelancers of all different types get together and they communicate and talk about their businesses. Then, you can learn from those people that are doing it well. Also, a lot of them are very honest about the mistakes that they make. I think that's really valuable. These conversations are part of having a healthy freelance economy in each of our cities so when we can have these honest conversations about what works well, but also what kind of mistakes to avoid and personal stories about what went wrong can really help you figure out how to run your business better.

Mac Prichard: 

As you talk about learning those skills, I'm reminded that old habits die hard. When I was in my early thirties I had the good fortune to go to graduate school full-time and I worked in government for almost ten years. It was a masters in public administration program. It took about a month, there were a group of us who had worked in government, even though classes didn't start until 9:30 we all showed up at school at 8:00. We just were trained to do that and it took us a while to get into the student mindset. I imagine it's challenging for people to get into that freelance mindset if they treat it, as you say, just like a job.

Rebecca Shapiro: 

It is. The more that you can read ... There's so many great blogs out there including Freelancers Union. If you just Goggle freelancing resources there's a lot of great information out there that will help you start to think about running your freelance business differently. It helps you start to shift your mindset so my recommendation is read as much as you can and talk to as many freelancers as you can and it'll start to get you changing those habits that you talked about.

Mac Prichard:   

You have a book and it has actionable steps, and we'll be sure to mention it in the show notes, but Rebecca of those fifty-two steps are there two or three that you always recommend that people can use if they are starting out as freelancers or maybe they're experienced freelancers and they just want to take their business up a notch.

Rebecca Shapiro:  

One that I frequently run into, especially when I was working with freelancers, is to set healthy boundaries. That's part of taking care of yourself, but also it's also part of taking care of your business. When you can set healthy boundaries and let your clients know that you are not available 24/7 every single day of the week, you don't end up resenting them and you end up being able to take care of your time so that you have time away from your clients and doing actual work. It also helps your clients know that you value them and that you also take your business seriously.

Setting up those healthy boundaries is really important and an easy way to do it is just to have a policy where you talk about your payment policy and when you're available and all that sort of stuff. You can put that on your website. You can put it in your contracts. You can have it in your face to face conversation when you're talking with a client before you get started because so many freelancers make the mistake of bending over backwards. Especially when they're starting out, they'll do everything for their client. What you've done is you've successfully trained your client to realize that you're going to go two hundred extra miles for them. You can't sustain that and then you end up screwing up later on down the road. Everyone gets really frustrated and disappointed so it's better to just set healthy boundaries right in the beginning.

Mac Prichard: 

I think that's excellent advice. I work with other public relations agency owners and small business owners and they all tell me that they expect vendors, whether they are freelancers or small businesses to have contracts and scopes of work and to send out invoices at a certain time. I would say to freelancers or people who are thinking about doing this who are listening, this is how business is done. It's normal. Your customers won't be surprised when you do set those boundaries or set those expectations.

Rebecca Shapiro: 

One of my boundaries, and I've had to turn away work, is I use a contract. I always use a contract. There have been some high profile people that have said, "I don't want to sign a contract." I've actually stepped away from the work. It's a hard decision but it's a policy that I have because I know that the contract ... So many things change over time of the project, it's hard to remember where you started and the contract is a way to protect yourself as well as the relationship with your client. I'm really glad you brought that up.

Mac Prichard:  

I, running my own small business, made the mistake once of not having a contract and we can share horror stories about that after the show.

Rebecca Shapiro: 

Yeah. All it takes is one time.

Mac Prichard:  

Yeah, you learn. I'm conscious of the fact that our time has come to a close and just thinking about our listeners who are thinking about doing this and they may have very practical questions. Why don't we just go through a short list?

Rebecca Shapiro:  

Okay.

Mac Prichard:   

Your best advice for people who are thinking about getting started, what are one or two things they could do right away or they should address?

Rebecca Shapiro:  

Okay. The first thing that they should do is they should go find a group. Go find their tribe. Whether it's Freelancers Union or maybe it's a co-working space, there's a lot of co-working spaces that have a community component and an educational piece to it. Get online and in person and look for those types of communities. That would be the first thing that I would absolutely do.

Then, the second thing I would do is get really clear on what it is, what is the product or service that you want to provide for somebody? Then, look for other people that are doing something similar in your community that you could actually sit down and just talk to them. Find out how their doing it. You know, it's funny it's really hard for us to ask for help, but I've found that almost everybody wants to help. It's kind of a nice way for people to realize that you're not invincible and that you're accessible. Ask for help and people ... I've actually have never found somebody who's said, "No".

Mac Prichard: 

That's been my experience too, but I'm glad you're bringing that up because I think a lot of people hear that advice and think, "Well, why would a potential competitor give me advice? Why would they be helpful?" What's been your experience there, Rebecca?

Rebecca Shapiro:   

I'm a big advocate of collaboration versus competition. In the traditional business realm it's more like you have to be bigger, better, faster, badder than your competitor. When you're a freelancer you're both a person and a business and so this can feel contradictory. I find that going to your competitors, even when they're working in the same field you each have different strengths, and you may find that you can create a relationship where you can work together. I've had that happen to me several times and they've turned out to be really satisfying working relationships and even a couple of them have turned into personal friendships. Don't be afraid to go talk to people that are in your field. Conversely, I encourage freelancers, because we like to hang out in our field especially when we are networking, to step out of that comfort zone and look in different fields and pick one person every once in a while that you can work with that's vastly different that you are. What you can do is look for strengths in that person and strengths in yourself and see where you can meet up.

Mac Prichard:  

That's how you get started and collaboration is very important. Don't be afraid to reach out to competitors for advice. What about finding customers? How do people find customers who've never done this before?

Rebecca Shapiro: 

Gosh, that is such a good question. There's a couple ways. One, of course, is to have an online presence. You guys have talked about this actually in some of the past podcasts that you've listed that I found was really a great resource. Also, again when you go to these networking events ... Don't let the word networking make you blanch and kind of shy away, just reframe it as an opportunity to make friends and meet interesting people. Most of my work has been through word of mouth and so going to these events, going to conferences, meeting up with people for coffee it gives you a chance to get to know one another. You never know. It's what I call building a reciprocal network. You never know where that relationship is going to lead. Again, I've found most of my clients through word of mouth and through other people, so that relationship piece is one of the key ways that I find my work.

Mac Prichard:   

What about people who have had a traditional job and they want to match their old salary. Is that realistic in the first year? How do you do it? Is it something that you have to invest time in? What do you see out there?

Rebecca Shapiro:  

That's a really good question. I see both. Every once in a while there's that unusual person who just, they do fabulously well. When I was at the Ted conference earlier this year, there was a gentleman who was talking about businesses and whether they flew or didn't fly. It was all about timing. The ones that really took off, it was just perfect timing. It didn't matter if their brand was spot on or anything, it was just timing. I think sometimes that plays a really huge part in somebody being massively successful. I would encourage, this has been my experience as well, it takes a while. Be patient and definitely plan for unexpected contingencies like new relationships or maybe you have kids or maybe there's unexpected events that happen, people die, or there's accidents or things like that that may have an impact on your work. You want to plan ahead for those, but I think it's really important to look at this as like this is a long term relationship that you're having with yourself and what kind of things you want to put out in the world and your business. It takes a while to build that up. Especially if you're just starting out.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. Well, thank you Rebecca. Anything else you'd like to add?

Rebecca Shapiro: 

Just that I am really pleased that you all are doing this. I think it's a really great resource. One of my favorite things to do is to look at other business models and ideas and lift them and apply them to my own life, and so even though some of the former podcasts have been about more traditional job finding, there's been some really terrific suggestions and tips in there that I've been able to apply to my freelancing work. I really appreciate the resource that you guys offer.

Mac Prichard:  

Thank you. I appreciate you being here and sharing your wisdom with our listeners. You can learn more about Rebecca at her website, it's rebeccashapiroart.com. You can find her book on Amazon. The title again is, "Work Independently and Live Connectedly: 52 Steps to Freelancing Freedom". We'll also include links to these two resources as well as Rebecca's LinkedIn, Instagram and Twitter accounts in this week's show notes.

We're back with Ben and Cecilia, so what did you two think? What were the most important points you hear Rebecca make?

Cecilia Bianco: 

I really liked her points about networking and having the mindset that you're just going to a party to make some new friends and not looking at it as an awkward business gathering. I thought her points about that were really great.

Mac Prichard:

I agree Cecilia. When people hear networking I think they break into a cold sweat sometimes. It's about relationships. We're all human beings and we all enjoy and get energy from connecting with others and that's what happens when you network effectively.

Ben Forstag:     

I think the key point was that when you're freelancing you're essentially running your own small business. When you're making the decision of whether you want to go in the freelance direction or not, thinking about all the other pieces that have to be wrapped around that; the accounting, the business practices, the invoicing, the contracts. All of that. It's kind of the whole small business package so it's a big task.

Mac Prichard:   

It is. I do find in large organizations there are people who have spent their careers in jobs but they have an entrepreneurial bent. They know how to set goals, build teams, collect resources. I say that because if there are listeners out there who are thinking to themselves, "I don't have the skills it takes to run a small business." Take a second look at your experiences and your background and what you're doing, even if you're in a large organization. You may surprise yourself. Probably, if you are successful, have many of those entrepreneurial skills.

Ben Forstag:   

Definitely, and I think it has to be said that this is a direction the labor market is going in in general. You hear people talk about the Uberization of the economy, that we're all turning into essentially gig workers where we kind of do the patchwork, DIY career thing. Having these skills and having the backbone to engage in that "I'm going to do it on my own approach." I think that's a real asset you could have.

Mac Prichard:  

Okay. Well, thanks.

Well, thank you all for listening. We're grateful to the scores of people who've left ratings and reviews for our show on iTunes. This helps others discover the show and helps us help other job seekers. If you have a moment, please visit us on iTunes and leave a rating and comment. We'll be back next Wednesday with more tips and tools you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, visit us at macslist.org where you can sign up for our free newsletter with more than a hundred new jobs every week. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next Wednesday.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Local radio station KINK 101.9 recently interviewed our very own Mac Prichard, founder of Mac's List! Host Sheila Hamilton spoke with Mac about how Mac's List started, what we offer today, and key job-hunting tips in today's local market.

The broadcast originally aired Sunday, November 15, 2015.

We want to share this interview with you, our podcast listeners, as the material covered in the broadcast is broadly applicable to all job seekers--whether you are based in Portland or anywhere else.

In this 14-minute episode you will learn:

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like the show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

FULL TRANSCRIPT

John Sepulvado:

This is “Find Your Dream Job,” the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I’m John Sepulvado, producer of the podcast.

I’ve temporarily taken over hosting duties for this special bonus edition of Find Your Dream Job.  You see, our usual host, Mac Prichard, has turned into a radio star!

Sheila Hamilton:

It is such a pleasure to welcome into my studio, Mac Prichard, who is a long-time friend, the author of "How to Find Your Dream Job in Portland", the author of the Mac's List, the CEO of Mac's List I suppose you call yourself-

Mac Prichard:   

I'm the publisher, yes.

Sheila Hamilton: 

And a person who really is so important, so key in knowing if you want to work in Portland because you seem to have tentacles all throughout our community. It's so good to see you again.

Mac Prichard:   

It's terrific to see you again, Sheila.

Sheila Hamilton: 

Why did you ... I knew you back in City Government, we were both covering City Government a long long time ago, why did you decide to move into employment and helping people secure their dream jobs?

Mac Prichard:   

Well, I went down to Salem after City Hall when you and I worked together, and I after working for the governor and as a spokesman for different state agencies, I took a position with Portland State and I wanted to stay in touch with my colleagues in Salem. We all get job postings, they all cross our desks occasionally, so in order to remain connected with people I just started forwarding the postings I got to a few dozen people in Salem. As the years went by, and Mac's List is a 14 year overnight success, I started hearing from employers I didn't know and people I didn't know who said, "Add me to your list". It grew slowly, at the end of eight years we had less than a thousand names but right now we have more than twenty thousand, and we have about eighty thousand people who take advantage, visit Mac's List, the website, the social media accounts, and the newsletter, and the podcasts.

Sheila Hamilton: 

Now, I noticed your strength seems to be in non-profit and government work, but you're also doing private business now it appears, right?

Mac Prichard: 

We are and I think you know, Sheila, I run two small businesses. One is macslist.org, which is the online community for people looking for rewarding creative work in Oregon and beyond, and the other is Prichard Communications, it's a public relations company that works with foundations, non-profits, and other social change organizations, and my career- I'm in my fifties now, has always been about making a difference on issues I care about or in the community where I live and work, ideally both, and I have used my communication skills to do that and what also connects both companies is we're really good at connecting people because we find when we connect folks, whether it's through our public relations work at Prichard Communications or at Mac's List, great things happen.

Sheila Hamilton: 

If a person's coming to Portland and they want to know what the variety of jobs that are available, do they need to sign up for your list?

Mac Prichard:

Yes, we have a free newsletter. It goes out every Tuesday at 2PM Pacific Time, and they're typically about a hundred new jobs there every week, and you'll find three or four hundred on the website which is also free at macslist.org, but the newsletter comes out every Tuesday.

Sheila Hamilton:    

And then are you actually connecting people with jobs that you think that you're like, "Your profile looks to me like you'd be really good over there", or are you leaving that up to them to do?

Mac Prichard:   

We're leaving it up to the job-seeker. As we've done this work, we've learned an old lesson which is ... And I had this experience too. Most people, including me at the start of my career, we don't know how to look for work, and so it's not a skill that's taught in schools or universities, and we learn it by trial and error. That's certainly what I did, and so in addition to the job listings, we have a blog, a book, and a podcast that shares the tips and tricks people need to not only find their next job, but have a great career.

Sheila Hamilton:  

What I loved, and I just listened to the podcast a couple of weeks ago, is you're providing content on that podcast that isn't just applicable to Portland, you're providing job-seeking tips and tricks of the trade that's applicable to anyone seeking a job in any part of the country.

Mac Prichard:

And that's by design because we do hear from people across the United States and the information that we're sharing can be used by anywhere.

Sheila Hamilton: 

On your podcast you have structured it in a really interesting way. You kind of do the state of the job thing, you divide it into little specific tips, what people do wrong. What have you found to be the most popular segments on the podcast?

Mac Prichard: 

Right now we're hearing great things about the expert interviews, people are hungry for that knowledge. Connecting people with those experts has been popular. We've also had good feedback about the information that my colleagues share, Ben Forstag every week shares blogs or books or websites that people can use in managing their career, and Cecilia Bianca, our community manager, she hears from listeners and readers all the time and she every week answers one of their questions.

Sheila Hamilton:   

I want to get in to some of the do's and don'ts of the modern job search. It's so interesting because I haven't had to look for a job in almost ten years, but I'm constantly reading blogs and journal articles about job searching. I don't know why, it's just an area of interest to me. It seems to me that the old adage of being personally connected is still very true.

Mac Prichard:   

It is and we strongly encourage people to follow an 80/20 rule. There's an estimate out there, nobody knows for certain, but up to 80% of all jobs may never be advertised, and it's not because there's some giant conspiracy, it's because it's human nature. People hire people they know, or they hire people who are recommended to them by others who they know and trust. Your challenge as a job-seeker is to crack that hidden job market, and the best way to do it is to spend up to 80% of your time networking, volunteering, doing informational interviews, so that you're building relationships and people are connecting with you.

Sheila Hamilton:   

And the other 20% of the time?

Mac Prichard: 

Look at job boards and there are many boards out there. Mac's List is one, lots of niche boards, whatever your professional, there's undoubtedly a niche board connected to it. There's also don't ignore traditional newspapers and whether online or in print because positions do get posted there, but most people because they don't know otherwise, they spend 100% of their time responding to job boards and newspaper ads. They really should only be spending about 20 to 30%.

Sheila Hamilton:    

Wow. I want to talk about the generation of kids that just came out of college, 2008 to 2012, I just heard dismal statistics about their ability to actually find meaningful jobs. Have those improved at all in the last two years for that section of graduates who came out of college with a lot of debt and not a lot of hope in terms of the economy?

Mac Prichard: 

There's research out there Sheila, which you probably seen that says whatever your generation, if you graduate during a recession, that's going to have a long-term affect on your earnings, and so that timing can be unfortunate. Your challenge if you're in that generation or graduating during the middle of a recession is to get really good about your job hunting and career management skills to make an extra effort because the market is always competitive, but it's especially competitive when the unemployment rate is as high as it was several years ago.

Sheila Hamilton:    

There's another segment of job-seekers that I'm really concerned about and that's people in their fifties who end up getting laid off from a job and then they're highly skilled and yet seen as perhaps too expensive, perhaps getting into an age when they might use up medical resources, is there any advice you could give to that segment of job-seekers?

Mac Prichard:   

I'm in that demographic group myself, I'm in my mid-fifties, and again mastering job hunting and career management skills is going to serve you very well, and it is challenging. Again, there's research that shows it's harder for people at that stage of life to find a next opportunity and that means you need not only to work harder, but you need to work as smart as possible.

Sheila Hamilton: 

When most people are thinking about job searching, it's when they lose a job.

Mac Prichard: 

Right.

Sheila Hamilton: 

Do you advise people to be searching for your next job while you still have a job?

Mac Prichard: 

I do and again, I speak from personal experience. Twice I've collected unemployment at different points in my career. Once I exhausted my benefits and it wasn't because I was sitting on a beach in Thailand. I was out there looking hard, and so I know how scary it is when you cash that last check and you're not sure what might happen next. From that experience and they both happened once in my twenties and once in my early thirties, it reinforced for me personally how important it is to think about career management and it's just from my father's generation, somebody who graduated from college in 1952, you really would go to a company and stay there most of your life, but for my generation and young adults now it's not true. Making career management part of your professional life is just essential.

Sheila Hamilton:

Is there an advisor that you can hire. I know that you can join your list, that you can read a lot of books, but should you have a professional in your corner?

Mac Prichard:

It can help a lot and you have a lot of options, so for those who went to college, connecting with your university career service office while you're both a student and an alumni can be very helpful. The first time after I cashed my last unemployment check in my twenties, my wife was working at Northeastern University in Boston and someone in the career services office agreed to meet with me. It was so helpful, Sheila. She took me through a goal-setting process, taught me the basics of networking and informational interviewing, and with that coaching I landed a job in about two months.

Sheila Hamilton:      

That's fantastic.

Mac Prichard:  

There are professionals out there who do this as a living, resume writers, career coaches, and as with any vendor you should shop around and be clear about what your needs are and interview people and get references, but they can be very helpful.

Sheila Hamilton:     

Lastly, I just want to talk about Portland as I'm seeing it and I kind of try to pay attention to what's happening here. We are still really strong in the cultural creative realm where young people are coming and starting their own very small businesses. We're not that strong in terms of big companies coming here and developing a Fortune 500 and hiring hundreds of people. Is that model gone? Do you think that model is not really going to be the thing that drives Portland jobs anymore?

Mac Prichard: 

Well, who knows if there's a Jeff Bezos or another CEO in Portland today who's going to create that company, so a lot of it depends on the community and the people within it, but I think small business have always been the largest employers overall. That's not a change and I think that is one of Portland's strengths actually compared to other regions. It's a place where I hear from employers and I experience this as an employer myself where you can start things and when I moved here from the East Coast in 1991, I was impressed by how open the political system was. People would make time to talk to me and I hear from other people in other fields that keep having that experience, and I think that's one of our biggest assets both economically and culturally.

Sheila Hamilton: 

Mac Prichard is our guest today. I want to take the time to allow people to find the podcast, find the list, find all the resources, so why don't you talk about those spots now.

Mac Prichard: 

Visit macslist.org/KINK, we've set up a special landing page, Sheila, for listeners who and if you visit that you can download a free chapter of our book. You'll also find links to the podcast. Every Wednesday morning we post a new episode. The list, the podcast, the blog, which is at macslist.org, they're all free and we would love to hear from people.

Sheila Hamilton: 

You also have it available on iTunes as well, right?

Mac Prichard:

We do.

Sheila Hamilton: 

Called?

Mac Prichard:

"Find Your Dream Job".

Sheila Hamilton: 

"Find Your Dream Job". Mac Prichard, it's been so good to see you again. Congratulations on the new endeavor.

Mac Prichard: 

Great. Thank you, Sheila.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Writing a winning, stand-out resume can feel like a roadblock to overcome in your job search. Often people experience what we call “resume writer’s block” when applying to a job, especially when dealing with online application systems.

To simplify the process, look at your resume as a marketing document that is used to sell yourself to a potential employer as the best fit for the job.Is your resume “smack in the forehead” obvious? Will it get you an interview--or even better, hired for the job?

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Jenny Foss, a longtime recruiter, job search strategist, and voice behind popular career blog JobJenny.com, which has been named among the Top 100 Career Blogs by Forbes magazine. She also is the author of several job search books, including the Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit and the Ridiculously Awesome LinkedIn Kit.

In this 33-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Jenny Foss (@JobJenny)Founder, JobJenny.comPresident, Ladder Recruiting GroupPortland, Ore.

Listener question of the week:

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

Special offer: The latest book from JobJenny.com recently launched, and she’s offering a special deal for all “Find Your Dream Job” listeners! Use discount code “Macslist” when you check out for $15 off the cost of JobJenny’s new book The Ridiculously Awesome Career Pivot Kit, as well as all the guides in her online shop!

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW: 

Mac Prichard:                     

This is Find Your Dream Job, the podcast that helps you get hired, have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host, and publisher of Mac's List. Our show is brought to you by Mac's List, your best online source for rewarding creative and meaningful work. Visit macslist.org to learn more. You'll find hundreds of great jobs, a blog with practical career advice, and our new book, "Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond." Thanks for joining us today.

We all learn about job openings in different ways. Maybe a headhunter calls you out of the blue or you may find a perfect gig on a job board, or even the old fashioned way, in the classified ads of your local newspaper. However you discover an opportunity, you can be certain you'll be asked to send your resume. What you do next can make a huge difference in your success. Should you write a custom resume for every job? Do employers want to see one or two pages? What format makes the most sense, chronological or functional? Maybe, just maybe, the Reese Witherspoon character in the movie Legally Blonde was on to something when she printed her resume on pink scented paper. After all, it got her into Harvard Law School, didn't it?

This week on Find Your Dream Job, we're talking about resumes. We'll start with the mistakes that can send your application straight to the wastebasket. Ben Forstag has three cool resources you can use to avoid resume disasters that even seasoned professionals make. Cecilia Bianco tackles a resume question we get time and time again here at Mac's List, one page or two. Later, we'll be joined by our guest expert, Jenny Foss, founder of JobJenny.com and the author of The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit.

First, let's check in with the Mac's List team, Ben Forstag and Cecilia Bianco. Crew, how are you doing this week?

Cecilia Bianco:                    

We're doing good.

Ben Forstag:                         

Yeah, having a great week.

Mac Prichard:                     

Good. We had a lot of fun earlier in the week. For people who are in the Pacific Northwest, you may be [inaudible 00:02:12]. We do events occasionally, about eight times a year and we had one this week on Careers in New Media.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Mm-hmm (affirmative), how to start or restart a career in communications.

Ben Forstag:                         

Yeah, it was a great event. We had a 160 people there, a great panel of experts in the field, a lot of great networking. It was real fun.

Mac Prichard:                     

For people who can't make the trip to Portland, I think there is a recording, isn't there, Ben?

Ben Forstag:                         

There will be and we'll put that on our website once it's available.

Mac Prichard:                     

We're not encouraging you to plan your next vacation around the Mac's List schedule, but-

Ben Forstag:                         

Why not?

Mac Prichard:                     

-But if you are headed to the Pacific Northwest or you're just here in Portland or working in state or Oregon, pay attention to our blog. You'll see plenty of notice about events. Again, they happen about eight times a year and we would love to see you there. Let's turn to this week's topic, resumes. Okay, Ben, what resources do you have for our listeners?

Ben Forstag:                         

Mac and Cecilia, have you ever typed resume tips or resume advice or resume help into Google.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Oh, yeah.

Ben Forstag:                         

Mac?

Mac Prichard:                     

I have, yeah.

Ben Forstag:                         

You get like a bazillion results?

Mac Prichard:                     

Yes.

Ben Forstag:                         

They all say different things?

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Yup.

Mac Prichard:                     

Yeah.

Ben Forstag:                         

Or sometimes they say the same thing, just in different ways?

Mac Prichard:                     

Right, a lot of conflicting advice out there.

Ben Forstag:                         

Yeah, so what I've done this week is I picked that three blogs that I thought were particularly good around resume advice and I'm going to briefly talk about each one of those. The first one comes from the Monster.com blog and it's called Twelve Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won't Catch. The thing I like about this is it's very concise, tight, and pretty conservative list of things you should watch out for. I'm not going to go into each one of the mistakes they say you can make. I'll leave that for our listeners to discover, but I think this is a good list to start with.

The other thing I like about this is even though they frame it as horrible mistakes, a lot of these things are tips you can do to write a better resume. It's not all negative. There's some positive spin on it as well.

Mac Prichard:                     

You have to have a favorite typo that you saw though in that blog post. Did one stand out?

Ben Forstag:                         

It wasn't typos as much. My favorite piece of advice, and this is just a personal irk I have is using Times New Roman font, which is the default font on Microsoft Office products, or at least it was back in the day. One of their suggestions is just don't do that. Pick another conservative font but not Times New Roman. It's just too standard.

Mac Prichard:                     

Well, my favorite typo happened when I worked in the governor's office and we had a news release about public health. Somebody left out the L in public, so there's much hilarity after that. Fortunately, the governor had a great sense of humor.

Ben Forstag:                         

I don't get it, Mac. Just kidding. (Laughing) Okay, the …

Mac Prichard:                     

We'll let our listeners puzzle over that one. All right, so Twelve Horrible Resume Mistakes Spell Check Won't Catch.

Ben Forstag:                         

That's on the Monster.com blog.

Mac Prichard:                     

All right, and that will be in the show notes.

Ben Forstag:                         

All of these will be in the show notes because I'll spare you the long URLs. The second one I wanted to point out was Six Words that Make Your Resume Suck. Now, these aren't dirty words or swear words, but they are mundane expressions that litter a lot of mediocre resumes. Let me go back. This is from the Squawkfox blog which is primarily a personal finance blog, but the writer put quite a few blog post together about resume writing. Let me just go through quickly these words, they're actually phrases, that make a resume suck.

There's things like, the phrases, "Responsible for," "Experienced in," "Excellent communication skills," "Team player," "Detail-oriented," and "Successful." Now, the author's issue with these is not that the concepts are bad; it's just that you're telling people about what you do instead of showing experiences that display those skills. Her emphasis is don't tell people you are responsible for something, just tell them what you did. Don't say that you're a great team player. Show an experience that shows that you're a good team player. Employers can read between the lines and figure things out.

The last blog post I want to share about, this is one that I particularly liked because I'm someone who learns best through practice and I like this post because it gives me a chance to apply the do's and don'ts of resume writing. It's Can You Find All the Mistakes on this Job-Seeker Resume? This is available on the Quint Careers blog. Essentially, they give you a resume and challenge you to go find all the problems with it.

Mac Prichard:                     

This is like finding Waldo in your resume?

Ben Forstag:                         

It's a little bit easier than finding Waldo. Some of them are really clear. Like at one point, I think they used Comic Sans as the font.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Oh no, not Comic Sans.

Ben Forstag:                         

I see you're a type snob. You're just like me, Cecilia.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Yup. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mac Prichard:                     

Yeah. Let's dig in to that a little deeper. I didn't know you were so passionate about Comic Sans.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Oh yeah. I wrote a blog post about how you should not use Comic Sans. It's just the worst font ever. It just looks like so unprofessional. It's comical to me.

Ben Forstag:                         

Yeah. Unless you're like writing a poster for a lost dog or something or the carnival is coming through town, don't use Comic Sans.

Mac Prichard:                     

All right.

Ben Forstag:                         

In this sample resume, some of the mistakes are really easy to find. Some of them take a little bit more investigation. I believe the author said there were 15 different mistakes in the resume. I only caught 14. I think it's worthwhile to go through and test what you've learned through reading the other materials that's on the Internet and what you hear today. That's again on the Quint Careers blog. I'll have the links for all three of these blog posts in the show notes.

Mac Prichard:                     

Great. Let's be sure to link to Cecilia's post-

Ben Forstag:                         

Of course.

Mac Prichard:                     

-Of Comic Sans. That one must have slipped on me because I don't remember it. I look forward to reading it. Well, thanks, Ben. If you have a suggestions for Ben, and I think you are hearing from listeners now where this is Episode 9 that we're recording.

Ben Forstag:                         

Yeah. I want to give a quick shout out to our listener Russell who was the first person to reach out to me with a suggestion for a resource. He suggested a book which I will definitely be reading and share my thoughts on at a later date.

Mac Prichard:                     

Okay. Ben is standing by his computer. We've heard him on the keyboard before so if you've got an idea for the show, his address is [email protected]. Now let's turn to you, our listeners. Cecilia, let's talk about resumes and what's your resume question of the week?

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Yeah. The question this week is "Does my resume have to be one page?" We get this question all the time and people are always Googling this. I don't really think that resumes have to be one page. I do think that aiming to keep it to one page is a good tactic to help you focus your resume to each job that you're applying for. Lately, I've been reading a lot of articles about this and they're saying that the one-page resume rule is dead. While that's hard for me to believe because previously people were saying resumes longer than a page are thrown out, not even read. I think that it might be true. Would either of you throw out a resume if it was two pages long?

Ben Forstag:                         

I don't know if I'd throw one out. I do know that if it was a hard and fast rule, you can't have a two-page resume, I would never have a job. My resume is two pages and I think it's a pretty focused resume at that. I try to put only things in that are germane to the job I'm applying for or have been applying for. The best thing I've heard about this, I think it was actually Job Jenny who said this. That the important thing is the quality, the focus of the material in that resume, and you can't imagine any employer saying, "This is the perfect candidate for resume," but their resume is two pages long. No. That doesn't happen.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Yeah.

Mac Prichard:                     

I'm in the two-page resume camp. Mine personally has been two pages, in part, because I'm much farther along in my career. I agree with Ben that if you've got the background and the skills and the experience to justify it, two pages is okay.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Yeah, I agree. I don't see an employer throwing a resume out for this reason, especially if all the experience is valid. I think the one-page rule is more for new graduates and students, because I think they're the groups that will tend to list more things on their resume that they need and just add duties and responsibilities that aren't really helpful to them. I think it depends what your background is, but it's definitely not a hard and fast rule anymore.

Ben Forstag:                         

I can see that making sense for a new graduate, somebody who doesn't have a whole lot of experience.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Yeah, definitely.

Mac Prichard:                     

Okay, so two pages is okay, but think carefully about your content and make the best case possible.

Cecilia Bianco:                    

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Mac Prichard:                     

Great. Thanks, Cecilia. If you have a question for Cecilia, her email address is [email protected]. These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List Guides, publisher of our new book, Land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. The Mac's List Guide gives you the tools you need to get the job you want. We'll show you how to crack the hidden job market, stand out in a competitive field, and how to manage your career. The book has eight chapters. In each chapter, expert shared job hunting secrets like how to hear about jobs that are never posted and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. You can get the first chapter of the book for free. Just go to macslist.org/macslistguides.

Now, it's time to hear from our expert and we have a terrific expert joining us today. Jenny Foss is a long time recruiter, job search strategist, and the voice behind the popular career blog, JobJenny.com. It's been named one of the Top 100 career blogs by Forbes. She's also the author of several job search books including one we're going to talk a lot about today, The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. Jenny, thanks for joining us.

Jenny Foss:                            

Thank you for having me.

Mac Prichard:                     

Yeah, it's a pleasure. Now, Jenny, a resume is a short document. Whether it's one or two pages and our listeners heard earlier we're on the two page camp here at Mac's List, but it ranges between 500 to 1,000 words. Why is it so hard to write one?

Jenny Foss:                            

It's hard to write for a lot of reasons. Number one, a lot of people have a level of discomfort to say the least when it comes to writing about themselves in a way that's going to properly market themselves to whatever audience that they're trying to go after. It feels awkward. We've been trained as we grow up not to brag, not to boast, and frankly, this is exactly what you need to do in a strategic way when you're constructing a resume. Then the secondary challenge is we don't understand how the game works a lot of the time. We don't understand how resumes can exhaust our works and what it will be your resume is going to be reviewed on and how to get it through the system, how to make it enticing to the human reviewers. It's so hard for a lot of people, even people who are exceptional writers because there's just so much to consider when you're constructing one.

Mac Prichard:                     

Okay, you flagged a lot of good points there. Let's separate them and break them down a bit. Let's talk about …

Jenny Foss:                            

Let's break it down.

Mac Prichard:                     

Yeah. We'll put it into short manageable chunks, which I think may be one of the tactics that you recommend in resume writing. I want to go back to a point you made about strategy. I think sometimes people think a resume is just about reciting facts. Jenny, tell our listeners why a "just the facts, ma'am" approach is usually not effective when you write a resume and the advantages of making strategic choices.

Jenny Foss:                            

Because it's a marketing document. It's a marketing document that you're using to try and entice an audience, a decision maker. It's not an autobiography. It's not a list of every last thing you ever did. It's a marketing document and therefore you have to figure out what does my audience care about or what will they likely care about or be looking for and how can I position myself as a logical match or as a great solution for those things that I know that they're going to care about. Yes, please lose the list mentality when it comes to a resume.

Mac Prichard:                     

Okay, so think about your audiences, their needs, the problems they have, and how you can solve them. You mentioned earlier automated tracking systems and automation is everywhere in the workplace including the human resource office. When computers review our resumes, what can we do to stop a machine from sending our resume straight to the slash pile?

Jenny Foss:                            

In a perfect world, you bypass the machine all together and you get right to the decision maker or somebody in the HR team. However, I know that that's unrealistic in a lot of instances. If you are intending to send your resume through an online application process, you have to assume that's going to go through an applicant tracking system, which is the database that sits at the front end of the recruitment process and looks for best matched candidates. Primarily, you want to make sure that your resume is robust in keywords that are common and specific to the type of job you're pursuing and also that you've got standard headers, you've got straightforward formatting because the system won't easily read and parse if you've got a resume that's got wild graphics or an unusual font.

Mac Prichard:                     

Again, think about your audience and strategy and think about the automation or the algorithms that might be scanning your resume. What about when people get stuck? You talked about how people should approach writing, but are there tips and tricks you have for people who just can't get started or are spending way too much time in their resume?

Jenny Foss:                            

One of the best things to do if you can't figure out what to highlight is to study three, four job descriptions that are very appealing to you, lay them out side by side and figure out what are the overlapping requirements or preferred qualifications that keep coming up on these job descriptions that are attracting me. That's probably a very good indicator of what these decision makers are going to be looking for and what the scanning software is going to be reading for. Make sure that you position yourself as a solution or as a match to those things. If you're feeling stuck, it might just be time to review some job descriptions before you make yourself crazy trying to figure this all out.

Mac Prichard:                     

Now, in addition to your books and working with job seekers as a counselor and coach, you've worked as a recruiter. You talked to employers a lot. When you speak to employers, what do they say about resumes that stand out? What do people do to make their resume stand out and what are some of their complaints that they share with you about resumes that they don't take a second look at?

Jenny Foss:                            

The most basic rule of thumb as to what makes a great resume, and this comes from feedback from my corporate recruiting clients or corporate decision makers and from the work I've done for the last several years as Job Jenny, is the easier you can make it for your target audience to make a quick connection between here's what we need and here's what Mac Prichard can walk through our doors and deliver, the better the odds are that they're going to invite you in for an interview. That's all you're using this resume for is to land an interview.

You want to make sure that you make perfect sense and from a reviewer stand point, they want to quickly scan your resume and see how and why you are a good fit for that job. They're not going to deduce that for you. They're not going to say, "Oh, well, he's done this. Maybe he can do this. Oh, he's got this background. Perhaps he'd be able to go do this." You've got to make it what I call smack in the forehead obvious why you're there and why they should contact you.

Mac Prichard:                     

We've talked about strategy, audience, content. What about layout and design? How much time should people spend not only looking a thing about topography, but rules and colors and paper?

Jenny Foss:                            

Well, it's an interesting question because the answer depends on if you are intending to apply for jobs through an online application or if you're always going to get that resume to a decision maker directly via email or handing it over. The reason there's a difference is when you're giving it to somebody directly, you've got plenty of latitude in how you can design it, how much layer you can have on it if you're using color and graphics and things like that, because it's not going to go through the resume scanning software.

However, most of us, at least some of the time, are applying for things online and so you have to be very mindful to make it straightforward in layout, common PC fonts. You've got to save it in a doc format and you need to understand how the scanning software works because then you can make sure that you're laying this thing out in a way that's actually going to be applicant tracking system friendly.

You know what, Mac, I understand. Like everyone might be sitting there thinking, "Well, that sounds like a big pain in the butt." Yeah, it is, but it's a bigger pain in the butt if you aren't getting through the resume scanning software over and over and over again because you've got some layout issues or formatting issues.

Mac Prichard:                     

A lot of our listeners apply for jobs at smaller organizations, non-profits or public agencies or private employers, how widespread is the use of automated tracking systems in resume review?

Jenny Foss:                            

Very. I think it's 70 to 80 percent of companies and recruiting agencies are using some form of software to help them manage their recruitment process. In smaller companies, say you see something on Craigslist or Mac's List and that gives you a direct email address to send to a human, then you can use your stylized format resume and save it as a PDF so it will retain the design elements no matter what platform the other person is looking at it from, but then it's less of an issue. If you don't know or if you are applying for something through an online application as opposed to emailing it to someone, you should probably assume that there is some kind of scanning software at play.

Mac Prichard:                     

We're talking today, Jenny, about resumes, but you can't manage your career or look for your next job effectively without having a LinkedIn profile. Talk to us about the difference between a resume and a LinkedIn profile.

Jenny Foss:                            

Well, for job seekers, the main difference is with LinkedIn, you're trying to entice a recruiter or a hiring manager to get to your profile and then once they do, to learn enough about you to whet their appetite to contact you whereas with the resume, you're telling it all. I don't want to say at all but it's a more comprehensive view of you.      

LinkedIn, I use the analogy often, if your resume is your Wall Street Journal version of you, LinkedIn is more the USA Today style. It's a little bit more bite-sized, a little bit more conversational because the platform is designed to facilitate conversation, and … This is important to remember … no recruiter wants to scroll until the end of time to get to the bottom of your profile. They're going through a lot of LinkedIn profiles every single day. You want to find that balance between giving them enough information so they know what you're about without torturing the reviewer with a really super long LinkedIn profile.

Mac Prichard:                     

You mentioned that a resume should be more comprehensive. What kind of personal information should people include in a resume in your experience? What should they say about hobbies or interests, travel, that kind of thing?

Jenny Foss:                            

I think some of that is dependent on the type of industry you're in and the type of role you're gunning for. For instance, if you're a high level executive, chances are you don't need to include a lot about, "I like listening to music with my kids." I mean that's just weird. If you're applying for, say, a role in a lifestyle company which we have plenty of those out in the Oregon market, maybe you include that you're a kayaker or you do dragon boating because that could actually be a great conversation starter.

I would say you always want to gauge and certainly never include anything that could be controversial or polarizing. I mean generally speaking, like political and controversial clubs, associations, things like that, probably best to leave them off.

Mac Prichard:                     

We're coming to the close of our interview shortly. I want to though move into a rapid fire round, Jenny.

Jenny Foss:                            

Okay, yeah.

Mac Prichard:                     

Ask you some common resume questions that we get at Mac's List.

Jenny Foss:                            

Yeah, go ahead.

Mac Prichard:                     

Cecilia and Ben and I hear this a lot at our events and our one-on-one meetings with people. What's your best advice about how listeners should address the following: gap years.

Jenny Foss:                            

Your best defense is almost always a good offense. If there's a quick and easy explanation that you can add to one or the other of the jobs, the earlier one or the one that preceded it, say like, "Following a family relocation to the Pacific Northwest, accepted a role as blah, blah, blah" or "Following a full-time enrollment in the XYZ program …" What you're doing is explaining the gap without apologizing for it.

Mac Prichard:                     

How about time spend raising children or caring for a parent or family member?

Jenny Foss:                            

Again, best defense is a good offense. "Following an extended illness or caretaking assignment for an ill family member, blah, blah, blah" or if you have 6, 7, 10 years that you haven't done anything in the workplace but maybe you went back to school for a while, sometimes it's better to rearrange the sections of your resume, put the education at the top and the experience lower so that instantly when the reviewer looks at it, they understand that you've actually been a student for the last 3, 4, or 5 years. It eases the gap and it gets that right in front of their eyeballs high up in the resume. Consider the order if you have some time off.

Mac Prichard:                     

Okay, speaking of order, strategic objective at the top or not at all?

Jenny Foss:                            

Not at all. I would do … Well, because we all know that your objective is to find a job and most every objective is just fluff and no stuff. Why not use that area at the top of your resume to do more of a career summary that highlights who you are and in what you specialize with your specific target audience in mind. You have a perfect opportunity to showcase you as a solution to those very things that you know your future employer is looking for in a summary section.

Mac Prichard:                     

For people who are sending their resume electronically, PDF or Word file?

Jenny Foss:                            

Word.

Mac Prichard:                     

Why not a PDF?

Jenny Foss:                            

Some applicant tracking systems, particularly those that are old and/or way less robust, so you're thinking small organizations, they have a difficult time reading and parsing the information in a PDF into the correct data fields. Your best bet is to go with a doc file.

Mac Prichard:                     

Final question, Jenny. A lot of our listeners are interested in career changes. What's your advice about how to write a resume as people prepare to make a career pivot?

Jenny Foss:                            

Well, you need to not only make yourself make sense for the new industry that you're going into, in whatever way you can, but if you have some background that actually might make you even more advantageous of a candidate than somebody who perhaps has taken a linear path through that industry that you're trying to break into, spell out how that equation works; like X + Y equals an even more appealing candidate. For instance, say you've been an engineer and you're trying to break into accounting and maybe you have been doing the books at your wife's photography business for the last 3, 5 years.

First of all, you make sure you showcase that prominently on your resume. In that summary section, you spell out that you've got the engineering experience plus the bookkeeping experience and then what does it equal. Find some way in which your experience as an engineer or as whatever you've been in the past actually has given you some background that will make you better at what you're doing as an accountant than maybe somebody who's just taken that linear path.

Mac Prichard:                     

Okay. Well, thank you, Jenny. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. For people who want to learn more about Job Jenny and her books and her services, visit JobJenny.com. Jenny, I know when you and I talked before the show, you have a special offer for our listeners that you want to tell us about it?

Jenny Foss:                            

Sure. We have just recently launched our latest book which is The Ridiculously Awesome Career Pivot Kit. As you mentioned, we also have a couple of other titles including The Ridiculously Awesome Resume Kit. We have set up a discount code or a promo code which is simply Macslist, all one word, and any of the listeners who would like to have a $15 discount off of any of our books which are in the shop, just use the Macslist discount code at check out and you'll get $15 off through the end of December.

Mac Prichard:   

Great. We'll be sure to include that in the show notes along with the instructions about how to take advantage of that offer. Thank you, again, Jenny.

Jenny Foss:          

Thank you. You guys have a good one.

John Sepulvado:                

Hi, I'm John. I'm the producer of Find Your Dream Job. I want to encourage you to go iTunes and rate the show. You can leave a comment because when you do this, you help others find out about Find Your Dream Job. People like PDX Media, that's their username, she says, "I'm skeptical of podcasts that take my valuable time repeating information I've already read on the web, but this show is exactly the opposite. Mac and his team have created an essential job seeking tool with valuable tips, advice, and analysis in a perfectly sized show. Bravo!" PDX Media, thank you. You can join her and more than 50 others who've left comments. Go to macslist.org and find the link to our iTunes page. Do it now and share this with your friends because everyone should have a chance to find their dream job. Now, we return back to the show. Here's Mac Prichard.

Mac Prichard:   

We're here in the studio with Ben and Cecilia. As you two reflect on the interview, what were some of the key takeaways for you?

Ben Forstag:       

I think the big one for me was keeping your resume in the Word file format. I had always thought that the PDF format was best just to keep the formatting stable when you mail it. That was a new one for me.

Cecilia Bianco:  

Yeah, same. That was interesting. I also thought probably her most important point was that a resume is a marketing document and it's now somewhere you're going to list everything you've ever done. You need to be strategic with it and not just have an autobiography.

Mac Prichard:   

Yeah, I so agree with you, Cecilia, because I do think people think it's a kind of laundry list of career responsibilities, not even accomplishments. To your point, the more strategic someone can be and to think of it as a marketing document, I think the more successful they'll be.

Cecilia Bianco:  

Yeah.

Mac Prichard:   

Okay. Thanks for listening. We're grateful to the scores of people who have left ratings and reviews for our show on iTunes. This helps other discover Find Your Dream Job and we appreciate it. If you have a chance, please visit iTunes and let us know what you think. Feel free to leave questions and suggestions for the show and we'll be sure to act on those. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job. In the meantime, you can always visit us at macslist.org where you can sign up for a free newsletter with more than a hundred new jobs every week. Thanks for listening.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Sometimes you take a job solely for the paycheck. But, at its best, work is about more than just financial advancement. A rewarding job engages you in a personal way, drawing on your strengths and passions, and challenging you with interesting, meaningful projects.

The key to landing a “dream job” is understanding your own interests, abilities, and needs. Only when you know what you truly want from from work will you able able to target the job opportunities most likely to make you happy.

Are you clear about what you want from your job?

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac talks with Aubrie De Clerck, a Portland-based career coach, about how to focus get clear about your work goals. Aubrie believes that everyone can have a career that feels authentic and purposeful. When job seekers identify the the work-life elements they most value, it creates a focused roadmap for meaningful work.  

In this 29-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Aubrie De Clerck (@AubrieDeClerck)Principal, Coaching for ClarityPortland, Ore.

Listener question of the week:

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Most colleges and universities provide career advising services to their current and former students. Yet only 10-20% of all college students or alumni ever use of their university career center.

Are you making the most of your alma mater?

This week on Find Your Dream Job Mac chats with Linda Williams Favero, director of alumni career services at the University of Oregon. Linda discusses how career centers function, the services they provide for students, and the opportunities available to alumni. She shares tips on how to make the most of your university career, even if it's been many years since you graduated. Linda also talks about the importance of maintaining a connection with your alumni networks. As she notes: “Ducks like to help Ducks... and you’ll find that at any university.”

In this 29-minute episode you will learn:

This week’s guest:

Linda Williams Favero (@LindaFavero)Program Director, Alumni Career Services, Career Center and Student Life, University of OregonPrincipal, Linda W Favero | Organization + Individual DevelopmentPortland, Ore.

Listener question of the week:

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!Opening and closing music for Find Your Dream Job provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

In Find Your Dream Job, Episode 005, the Mac's List team shared the the importance of keeping up-to-date on new social media tools. In this special bonus clip, we discuss one of the newer platforms in social media: Snapchat. Once a domain solely for intrepid youth, Snapchat is now increasingly being adopted by companies and professionals.

Cecilia Bianco shares one example of how a nonprofit, DoSomething.org, uses Snapchat, to connect with a younger audience and build a support base.

Do you have a question you'd like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac's List Community Manager at [email protected]. 

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you'd like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac's List Managing Director at [email protected].

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

--

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Ben Forstag:

Hi, Cecilia. Today, we were talking about different social media platforms and the topic of Snapchat came up, and maybe I am outing myself as an old guy who doesn't get it, but I really don’t understand the value of Snapchat. I understand how it works, that the pictures self delete, but how could a professional or an organization use this to an effective end?

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah, definitely. A lot of organizations are actually using it effectively, and one non-profit in particular has done some really cool things with it. It's called DoSomething.org, and it was Valentine's Day, and they were Snapchatting throughout the day and all of their Snapchats culminated in this live event, and they used Snapchat to get people to come to the event. It's just another way to engage with your fans and if you grow a large audience base on Snapchat, if your audience is in that age group where everyone's on Snapchat, it’s a great way to engage with them and you can do really cool things, like have an all-day online event, and then bring it in person. It's just a new creative way to do something for your fans.

Mac Prichard:

The reason organizations are going to that platform is because that's where their audience is, essentially.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah, I think that's definitely true. Probably from 13 to 23, everyone’s on it. I'm on it, and I don't even know why, but I know I follow a lot of organizations and I can see what they're doing, what campaigns they're working on, and it’s a very personal approach, I think, to social media.

Ben Forstag:

Hey, Mac? Thirteen to 23, I'm not in that demographic group.

Mac Prichard:

Neither am I, but I think a lot of our listeners want to work with young people and they want to work with organizations that are involved, or help and serve young people, and I think it may be a different platform, but the principle's the same, whether it's Facebook or Snapchat. If the employers you want to hire you are in that world, it’s to your advantage to be there.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah.

Ben Forstag:

You go where the market is.

Mac Prichard:

Exactly, and you don’t have to be 13 to 23 to want to work with young people. There are lots of people my age or younger or older who want to do that kind of work, and being on Snapchat could help them build relationships.

Cecilia Bianco:

Yeah, it's probably more like 13 to 30, actually, just to correct myself, because I’m thinking of my sisters and my cousins, and they're in their 30s. They'd be offended if they heard me say 23, so 13 to 30.

Ben Forstag:

Unfortunately, I still don’t fall in that demographic group! But thanks for clearing that up for me.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Finding a job can take a lot of work. But what if you could get in front of a recruiter--someone who is paid to find great employees? Like a fairy godmother, couldn't a recruiter make your wish for a dream job come true? And by doing so, save you a lot of time and effort?

The truth is, recruiters can make a big difference in your job search, but they can't do it all.

In this 32-minute episode you will learn:

• What recruiters do, who they work for, and how they get paid
• How to find the right recruiter for you and your industry
• How to start a relationship with a recruiter or recruiting firm
• What you should (and shouldn’t) expect from a recruiter

This week’s guest:

Steve Potestio (@Potestio)Partner and CEO, Mathys+PotestioPortland, OR

Listener question of the week:

• How can I keep up with new media jobs?

Do you have a question you’d like us to answer on a future episode? Please send your questions to Cecilia Bianco, Mac’s List Community Manager, at [email protected].

Resources referenced on this week’s show:

• Mashable.com - 20 Tools to Show Off Your Portfolio
• The Deeply Graphic Design Podcast
• Social Media Examiner
• Mashable.com
• Inc. Magazine
• Forbes Technology
• SnapChat
• Canva Free Online Photo Editor
• Hootsuite Social Media Management
• Edgar Social Media Management
• The Business of Strangers (2001)
• Mathys+Potestio
• Find Your Dream Job in Portland (and Beyond): The Complete Mac’s List Guide

If you have a job-hunting or career development resource resource you’d like to share, please contact Ben Forstag, Mac’s List Managing Director, at [email protected].

--

Thank you for listening to Find Your Dream Job. If you like this show, please help us by rating and reviewing our podcast on iTunes. We appreciate your support!

Opening and closing music for “Find Your Dream Job” provided by Freddy Trujillo, www.freddytrujillo.com.

FULL TRANSCRIPT BELOW: 

Mac Prichard:

Welcome to Find Your Dream Job. We're the podcast that helps you get hired and have the career you want, and make a difference in life. I'm Mac Prichard, your host. I'm the publisher of Mac's List. On today's show, we're discussing how to work with an executive recruiter.

Looking for a job is hard work. You know that. We've all been there. Before you set on to your first application or you go to an interview, you need to confirm your career goals, and you have to update your online profiles. You need to network. You need to do lots and lots of networking.

Again, that's a lot of hard work. Not surprisingly, many of us, including me, have wondered, "Isn't there another way--an easier way--that lets you cut to the front of the application line?" What if you could get in front of a recruiter, somebody who is paid to find great employees? Like a fairy godmother, couldn't a recruiter make your wish for a dream job come true, and by doing so save you a lot of time and effort?

Recruiters can make a big difference in your job search, but they can't do it all. This week, we're talking to a recruiter, Steve Potestio. He's one of the best in the business. He works with digital firms and writers, graphic designers, and other creative workers all across the country. Steve is going to share with us what recruiters can do and what they can't do, and how you can make the most of that experience.

First, let's check in with the Mac's List team. Joining me as always in our downtown studio here in Portland, Oregon are Ben Forstag, our management director, and Cecilia Bianco, our community manager. Hello Ben and Cecilia.

Cecilia Bianco:

Hi Mac, how are you?

Ben Forstag:

Hi Mac.

Mac Prichard:

Good, I'm doing well. Confess, have you had that fantasy that the phone is going to ring one day, and it will be a recruiter offering you your dream job?

Ben Forstag:

During my last unemployment stint, which was about four months long, I had that fantasy every day, or that hope at least.

Mac Prichard:

How about you Cecilia?

Cecilia Bianco:

I actually really haven't, but I've talked to a lot of recruiters through my job at Mac's List, and I think it's a dream a lot of people have.

Mac Prichard:

There is real value when working with a recruiter. They can make a huge difference, but like anything, you don't want to rely in just one strategy alone. I've never actually been approached by a recruiter about a job, though I have been contacted by different recruiters looking for candidates. Cecilia, you're out there in the community a lot. What's been your experience working with recruiters?

Cecilia Bianco:

They're always just looking for it seems very specific people to their agency. Anytime I get an email from one of them, they have almost an exact person in mind with certain experience.

Mac Prichard:

I find that too. I also find that they contact people like us, because they're looking for recommendations about trusted candidates, people who fit that criteria. Even if the phone rings, and they're not offering a job, but if it's a recruiter at the other end of the line, I think there's a real value in building that relationship. We'll talk more to Steve about that later in the show.

Before we do that, let's check in with Ben, because when it comes to online career resources, Wikipedia has nothing on Ben Forstag. Every week, he explores the internet looking for blogs, podcasts, and other tools you could use in your job search. Ben, what have you uncovered for us this week?

Ben Forstag:

Mac, given the theme of today's show, I wanted to share two different resources that I thought might be particularly useful to anyone exploring a career in creative services, so graphic designers, writers, anyone who does creative things for a living. The first one is a blog post I found on the mashable.com website. Cecilia, I know you go to Mashable every day.

Cecilia Bianco:

Often.

Ben Forstag:

This is a site that's about all things digital and media. It's a great tool. This blog post comes from 2013. It's 20 Tools to Show Off Your Portfolio. If you're going to be working in the creative industry, that really means you need to present your work on the web so that everyone could see what you do. The online platform you use to show off your work might be just as important as the material you're showcasing.

As you can imagine, it doesn't matter how good the work you put on it is if your website looks dated, or if it doesn't work. That's going to not reflect well on you as a professional. This blog, the 20 Tools to Showcase Your Portfolio, it outlines 20 different platforms you could use to showcase your art, your writing, whatever creative output you have.

I'll admit, I don't have a portfolio myself. Cecilia, I know that you do. What platform do you use?

Cecilia Bianco:

I actually have a customized WordPress platform, but I think about every single journalism school student at University of Oregon all used this Cargo Collective. It's definitely one of the easiest tools to make one.

Ben Forstag:

Mac, when you're looking at candidates for contract work or vendors, is there a given platform that you prefer, or is it just whatever you find?

Mac Prichard:

One feature I like about LinkedIn is there is portfolio section. I don't think it's on your list. LinkedIn is always a stop for an employer who is checking on the candidate. In addition to the good ideas on your list, I would encourage candidates to think about using the portfolio section of LinkedIn.

Ben Forstag:

On LinkedIn, you can add projects now. I know I uploaded some magazines that I edited in my previous job there. That's a great tool as well.

There are 20 different platforms here that they suggest. Some that are more known, some that might be new on the scene, tools like Carbonmade, Behance, Dribbble, that's with three Bs, Dunked to Viewbook, and Cargo Collective.

Again, this is post is on Mashable. It's 20 tools to showcase your portfolio. It's another blog with a really long URL. We'll include this in the show notes, or you can Google it on Mashable.

The other resource I want to share with you is a podcast I discovered recently.

Mac Prichard:

Another podcast, you're listening to other podcasts.

Ben Forstag:

I'm cheating on the podcast. When you're done with this podcast, when you've downloaded them all, and listened to them all and rated us positively, you can go check out this other podcast. It's called the Deeply Graphic DesignCast. This is a podcast for graphic designers, web designers, and visual designers.

It's produced by a graphic design studio in LA called The Deep End. The episodes explore different design-related topics from finding better clients to online portfolios, hot trends in design, and making sure you get paid for your work, things like that.

I've always had a fantasy of monetizing my hobby of painting, and so I like hearing these things on how other people are doing stuff in the creative arts. Don't worry Mac, I'm not going anywhere. I'd get to sell a single painting in five years. Like our podcast, they answer listener questions.

The nice thing about this podcast is it's been around since 2011, and they regularly produce episodes. They've got 95 episodes. It's about one every week. It's a great resource, a fun little podcast, entertaining. I suggest you check it out. Again, the Deeply Graphic DesignCast, and we'll have the link to that in the show notes.

Mac Prichard:

Those are great suggestions. I didn't know that you painted. I look forward to seeing some of your paintings one day.

Ben Forstag:

I'll bring you over to the studio someday.

Mac Prichard:

Do you have an idea for Ben? Just write him. You can reach him at [email protected]. We may share your idea on the show. Now, we want to hear from you our listeners. Let's turn it over to Cecilia, our community manager. Cecilia, what's the question of the week?

Cecilia Bianco:

Our question this week is, "How can I keep up with new media jobs?"

To get a new media job, the most important skill you can have is knowing how to tell a visual story. New media has largely turned into visual communication. As we all know, in this office, we've done presentations about this. Being able to use the tools and platforms available to tell a visual story is the key thing.

You want to be comfortable with video editing tools, even if it's just a simple as iMovie on your Mac computer. I know Ben is a pro at iMovie. Also photo editing tools such as the Adobe suite with InDesign and Photoshop. There's also a lot of online tools that are free and easier to manage than Adobe. Overall, the more skills and tools you master, the better off you're going to be.

Mac and Ben, I'm sure you both have some go-to resources to keep up with new media. Do you have any favorites?

Ben Forstag:

To be honest, my resource for all thing social media are probably my teenage nieces and nephews. They know about these things well before I do certainly. I remember a few years ago when my nieces were trying to show me about Snapchat. At that time, I thought, "Well, this is the silliest thing I've ever seen. Why would you ever need to know this?" From what I've been told, this is now a platform that lots of professionals are using. I know my favorite baseball team has a Snapchat account. I know several serious journalists do Snapchat accounts. It's a serious thing. I guess what I'm saying is I should be listening more to my nieces and nephews, take what they say seriously.

Cecilia Bianco:

Definitely, Snapchat has become important along with a lot of other platforms. With new media, there is always a new platform that people are jumping on and using. To stay up to date with those, you need to have some go-to resources beyond your nieces and nephews probably. I would suggest a few E newsletters such as the Social Media Examiner. Ben mentioned I'm a big fan of Mashable, Ink Magazine. The Forbes technology section is also great. Mac, do you have any to add?

Mac Prichard:

I just want to support your point that it's so important to keep improving our skills. One trend I see in social media platforms is tools that used to be standalone applications increasingly are being incorporated into Facebook, Instagram, and the other big popular apps. As we reach out to people online, taking advantage of those tools gets a lot easier, because they're much more intuitive, and simpler, and easier to use than say Photoshop even three to five years ago.

Cecilia Bianco:

I agree. With some of the platforms like Canva is basically Photoshop, but it's free. It's very easy to use. You can teach yourself in an hour. It can be really intimidating to try and learn those tools, but I think if you set small goals like signing up for new newsletters, or mastering a new skill every month, it becomes a lot more manageable.

Mac Prichard:

That's excellent advice, breaking tasks down into smaller achievable pieces, whether it's mastering a new skill or taking the next step in your job search.

Ben Forstag:

I know we've talked about social media tools in previous episodes, but let me just ask you Cecilia. If you had to pick the top three that someone should be comfortable using, what would those top three social media tools be?

Cecilia Bianco:

I would definitely pick at least one photo editing, one video editing, and then probably one management tool. Canva for photos, iMovie for videos, and maybe HootSuite or the new Edgar social media management tool would be key.

Ben Forstag:

Thanks.

Mac Prichard:

Great advice. It's very telling and right on target that two of the three you mentioned were visual tools, because so much online communication and so much media work now is all about visuals except of course this podcast. There is that.

These segments by Ben and Cecilia are sponsored by the Mac's List guides. We're the publisher of a new book, here at Mac's List. It's called land Your Dream Job in Portland and Beyond. You'll find in our guides, the tools you need to get the job you want. We tackle the questions that are on your mind. How do I find about hidden jobs? What can I do to standout when I'm competing against dozens of other people for the same position? What do I need to do next to manage my career? In our book, there are eight chapters. You'll find experts who share insight or knowledge about how they learn about jobs that are never posted, and what you can do to interview and negotiate like a pro. Check it out for yourself. You can download the first chapter of the book for free. Just go to our website. The address is macslist.org/macslistguides.

Steve Potestio co-owns Mathys and Potestio. It's a recruitment firm for the creative and digital industries. His company has offices in Portland, Austin, and Los Angeles. Steve knows how recruiters work. He's worked with more than 100 agencies, and he's helped place thousands of professionals into jobs. He's also been a copywriter, a graphic designer, a project manager, an account manager, and he was the director of operations for a large digital agency during the dot-com era. Steve, that's quite a background.

Steve Potestio:

Thank you.

Mac Prichard:

Thank you for joining us. Let me start with one example I think people have in their heads when they think about recruiters. I'm going to into the way back machine. There is a wonderful movie starring Stockard Channing. It's called the Business of Strangers. It came out in the early 1990's. It's about corporate intrigue, and it reflects popular ideas about corporate culture in those years.

In the plot, Channing is a high-powered executive. She hears rumors that she's about to lose her job. The first thing she does is she picks up the phone, and she calls a recruiter. They both traveled to an airport. They have a meeting in the lounge. He brings his briefcase, and he reaches into it. There he has job openings that pay six-figure salaries. They talk about what position she might take next if she indeed loses her position inside the company.

That's one way people think of recruiters. What would you say to that popular image, Steve?

Steve Potestio:

I'm laughing because if that was the case, that would be cool that we just have a briefcase full of jobs. That's cool. That is I think a common misperception of our industry. We are actually out there beating the bushes every day trying to build relationships with companies so that we do in fact have opportunities. We're not walking around with briefcases full of them. We're not having any clandestine meetings.

Actually, a good recruiter would probably do a little bit more than the recruiter in the movie. That is really establishing a relationship with the individual, and talking about their needs and what they're looking for, and what's a good fit for them prior to opening up that briefcase, and just start trotting out a bunch of jobs.

Mac Prichard:

Let's put aside the Hollywood image. Let's talk about how the business really works. Tell us about the recruitment business and how you look for candidates, and what you're looking for.

Steve Potestio:

One thing about a recruiter to realize is the recruiter serves two masters. On one side is the individual, the candidate that is looking for a job. On the other side is the hiring company, the business client. A good recruiter is trying to build relationships, and understand both equally so that they are able to put the two together successfully.

Generally, the client company, the hiring company is the firm that pays our bills if you will. It is natural that recruiters could lean toward that side, and really focus more on servicing that side. I think the best recruiters really walk right down the middle of the street.

Mac Prichard:

You talked about the firms that you work for. They're the ones who are paying you. How do you get paid? I know there are different forms of compensation for recruiters.

Steve Potestio:

There are different types of recruitment. There is different types of, I guess, logistical types of jobs. You're going to see recruiters that work on full-time salary positions only. You're going to see recruiters that will also work on contract type assignments, and then recruiters that will work on both.

Some of it is what situation are you looking for as an individual, and then finding the recruiter that works within those situations. If you're looking for a full-time job, the recruiter is paid if a candidate that they have introduced is selected and hired by that client company. That client company will pay that recruiter or recruiting firm a fee for having found that individual. Recruiters work on what's called contingency placements. They do not get paid until they have successfully placed someone into a job.

Mac Prichard:

I think the other approach is called the retainer. Can you talk about the differences between a firm that works on retainer versus contingency? Is there any advantage to a job seeker to work with one firm over another?

Steve Potestio:

Being a good recruiter, the candidate probably won't necessarily know the difference if that recruiter is on a retainer or on a contingency. That should be something that they don't really necessarily even have insight into.

A retained search generally is limited to executive level, C level types of positions. Most companies will not pay for a retained search if they are looking for staff level or management level unless again it's an executive suite level position. For example, in my business, we haven't had a retained search in probably five years.

Mac Prichard:

I'm often asked when I meet with people informational interviews, and this is a question Cecilia who talks to our community all the time also receives: how do you approach a recruiter? Getting back to that image of the fellow with the briefcase, even if that's not the reality, there are advantages in having a relationship with the recruiter. Walk us through how someone should find someone in their field, and how they might approach a recruiter.

Steve Potestio:

One of the most important things is finding someone in your field. The reason that is so important is because the recruiter should understand you, and your background, and your experience better than someone who may be has not been exposed to the type of work that you do.

Finding someone that understands the type of work that you do is pretty key. They should then also have a client business hiring company relationships in that same industry. They're going to be potentially more equipped to be able to assist you. Then it's just a matter of reaching out to that person, whether it's LinkedIn or email or a phone call.

Again, I reference maybe good recruiters and maybe not so good recruiters, but I think a good recruiter is somebody who is looking out for your best interest, and maybe willing to talk to you even if they don't have something immediate that potentially fits their needs or your needs, an immediate potential job opportunity fit.

A recruiter should invest the time to meet with you, get to know you, because they may have that opportunity for you in one week, or one month, or three months. Some recruiters fall into the trap of only working on what's in their immediate workload, and not looking down the road.

Mac Prichard:

Look for a way to establish a long-term relationship with the recruiter. Let's back up Steve. I'm just thinking of our listeners. They love actionable ideas. They want practical instruction about concrete steps they can take next.

Imagine that one of our listeners is sitting in front of a computer. They want to find the recruiter in their field. What do they do next? Do they go to Google? Do they go to LinkedIn? Walk us through how you would actually identify say a recruiter in your field? I know you work with digital creatives, designers, writers, and similar professions.

Steve Potestio:

On my LinkedIn account, I have an ability to do advance searches. If you don't have that ability, I think you have to pay for that. I would go to Google, and I would Google and find out the companies. Then I would go to LinkedIn, and I would look at the company profiles, and I would look at the recruiter profiles, and again, trying to find individuals or recruitment firms that specialize in your area.

Mac Prichard:

I'm a writer. I sit down, and I Google executive recruiters, or recruiters, writers, the community where I live in, whether it's Portland, Oregon, Chicago. I know you have offices in Austin and Las Vegas as well. Up pops the name of several firms and recruiters, how do I approach these people? Do I send an email? Do I make a phone call? What's the practical way of doing that?

Steve Potestio:

I'll back up again too. The first thing that you should be doing is looking at your own toolbox, and making sure you're ready to contact the recruiter. That recruiter, one of the first things they're going to do is they're going to examine your resume. They're going to examine your background. They're going to go on to your LinkedIn profile. If they see things that are a mess, or they're not seeing the type of professional that they feel that they can comfortably represent, they may be less inclined to respond to your inquiry. Again, a good recruiter and a good recruitment firm will respond to every single person that reaches out to them, but many don't.

Mac Prichard:

What is helpful to you as a recruiter? What kind of requests do you like to receive? After people have paid attention to the basics, and they put their LinkedIn profile in order, do you like to get a phone call, an email? What works best?

Steve Potestio:

An email works best because that enables the recruiter or the recruitment firm to take a closer look at the individual's background, and to really assess their ability to help that person. A phone call, they're still going to ask for some time to dig a little deeper into the individual's background. I don't want to discourage people from not picking up the phone, but the recruitment firm really needs to evaluate their ability to assist the individual.

If they don't feel like the individual has the right background, and they in turn don't have the right client base to assist that individual, they should hopefully be pointing them in a different direction. A lot of it is really evaluating their ability to help that person.

Mac Prichard:

That's the best way to approach you. What mistakes do you see people make when they attempt to work with recruiters?

Steve Potestio:

I don't know the mistakes that they make when they initially reach out, but I think people need to have realistic expectations of what a recruiter or a recruitment firm can do for them. We cannot manufacture job opportunities for them. We may have that briefcase full of job openings, but if none of those job openings match that individuals' background and what they're looking for, then it doesn't matter that we have a briefcase full of job openings. They're not the ones for you. People just need to be realistic that yes, we are out there doing everything we can to build relationships with clients so that chances are greater that we may have opportunities for you, but it's never a given.

Mac Prichard:

A number of possibilities, people can approach you all, begin to build a relationship. There might be a suitable opening, and it might actually lead to a job offer. In other instances, people may go down that path, and not get an offer, or there may not be openings at the moment. For those who don't get a job out of this process, what's the best way to build and maintain a long-term relationship with the recruiter?

Steve Potestio:

I'm glad you asked that. I've been doing this, gee, longer than I've carried a [inaudible 00:27:29] over close to 20 years. Smart candidates and smart recruiters do look at it as a long-term ongoing proposition. There are many people that I have placed into jobs. They have in turn called me and asked me for new hires for their department or their company. In turn a couple of years down the road, they may be a candidate again.

A good recruiter would want to invest that time and would want to keep tabs on your career. I think being a good candidate working with the recruiter, you keep that recruiter up to date in terms of what you're doing on your own. Again, a recruiter or a recruiting firm is one avenue that you should be pursuing. It's definitely something to pursue, but it's only one avenue in your job search.

Mac Prichard:

I'm glad you made that point, because I think sometimes people tend to put all of their eggs in one basket, whether it's focusing on a recruiter or one opportunity at one organization, which could be attractive, but you'd never know what might work out. It's always good to be pursuing how to find several different opportunities.

Steve Potestio:

What happens when you don't is it's the old image of the person at home waiting for the phone to ring on Friday night to see if they're going to get that one date that they've been after. That one person doesn't call. Will stay home for the night?

Maybe that's a bad analogy, because then that means that person is pursuing many, many, many potential suitors. Maybe that's a bad analogy, but at the same time, the job seeker does need to pursue many different avenues unless they want to just be in a long and prolong job search.

Mac Prichard:

That's an excellent point to stop at. Steve, how can people learn more about you and find you online?

Steve Potestio:

Our website is a great way to connect with us. We actually are also very active on social media. We have a very vibrant Facebook page. We do a lot of tweets. Our website actually posts a lot of information that is similar to Mac's List geared toward professional development and helping people. Really, that's the best way to connect with all of the various channels that we are trying to put information and content out to.

Mac Prichard:

That's terrific. Thank you for your time Steve.

Steve Potestio:

Thank you Mac. I appreciate it.

Mac Prichard:

We're back in the studio with Ben and Cecilia. There's a lot of food for thought there from Steve, wasn't there?

Ben Forstag:

There was.

Cecilia Bianco:

Definitely a lot of questions I had about recruiters, he covered it all.

Mac Prichard:

I just want to thank you all for nodding knowingly. I expect you don't know who Stockard Channing is.

Ben Forstag:

No idea.

Cecilia Bianco:

I have no idea.

Mac Prichard:

You had to be there back in the 1990's. She was huge.

Ben Forstag:

I was there just, I guess, not paying attention to movies.

Mac Prichard:

I went too far too many movies. Actually, I was looking up this movie. I couldn't find it in the Wikipedia. I had to find it elsewhere. It's obscure, but well worth the watch. It does underscore a popular image we have of recruiters. I think Steve has helped us understand that working with the recruiter can be valuable, but you don't want to rely just on recruiters.

Ben Forstag:

I thought the most interesting was how recruiters get paid. I didn't really know that much about recruiting. I always had this vague idea that they would take a percentage of my salary. I don't know where I got that notion, but it's good to know that the job seeker is not the person who's paying for that service. It's usually the employer.

Cecilia Bianco:

I agree. I have that question too. I've always wondered what the actual breakdown was. It was interesting to hear exactly where the money goes and how they make their money, because it seems in my opinion that recruiters usually cater a lot to the job seeker, but really, their paying customer is the employer.

Mac Prichard:

One thing to keep in mind if you're contacted by a recruiter. Steve talked about this. The recruiters that are hired on contingency, a company may work with two or three recruiters for the same position, so a recruiter can be an advocate for you. If however you don't get hired or one of the candidates doesn't get hired, they don't get paid. It can be a tough business.

Again, working with the recruiters can be rewarding, and we encourage our listeners to explore that. Steve had some very practical ideas about next steps you could take if you want to do that.

Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with more tools and tips you can use to find your dream job.

In the meantime, as always, visit us at macslist.org. You can sign up there for our free newsletter, where you'll find more than 100 new jobs every week. If you like what you hear on our show, help us out by leaving a review and a rating at iTunes. We're determined to crack the top 10 list in the career section of iTunes. To do that, we need your help. Please take a moment, and we'd appreciate it. This will help others discover our show and share the information. Thanks for listening.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.