First Name Basis Podcast

July 26, 2023, is the 33rd anniversary of the Americans With Disabilities Act.

If you're doing the math in your head, let me give you a shortcut: That means the ADA wasn't passed until 1990. 1990?! It took quite a while for Americans with disabilities to officially be named a protected class as neither the 1964 Civil Rights Act nor the 1965 Voting Rights Act included people with disabilities — and the United States still has a long way to go in making our public spaces, businesses and communities truly accessible.

In honor of the 33rd anniversary, I wanted to invite a very special guest — Amy Webb — on the podcast to teach us about how to talk to children about disabilities.

Amy is a DREAM guest of mine. She exudes passion for all of the things that she does, and that's just one of the many reasons why I admire her so much.

Amy is an artist, writer, mother and creator of the blog This Little Miggy Stayed Home. As the mother of a disabled daughter, she advocates for the disability community through her writing and Instagram platform. She is the author of two children's books. Her first, "When Charley Met Emma," teaches children about disability, friendship and inclusion and her second book, "Awesomely Emma," is a sequel that teaches the power of self-advocacy. Amy lives with her husband and three beautiful daughters in Ohio.

This interview is full of Amy's thoughts and wisdom, and she teaches us about:

• Identity first vs. person first language.

• How to respond when our children point out disabilities.

• Why it's important to never ever touch someone's wheelchair without asking.

• The importance of having a plan for supporting disabled children during emergency situations.

• How a place is not accessible if a bathroom is not accessible.

• What action steps non-disabled people can take when we come to a place that is not accessible.

• The intricacies of the "just ask" philosophy

Get our resource email to learn more about the ADA

July is Disability Pride Month, a time to recognize people with disabilities, their inherent worth and their invaluable contributions, as well as to bring awareness to the ongoing fight for disability rights. July 26 is also the 33rd anniversary of the Americans with Disabilities Act being signed into law.

We put together a resource email to help you learn more about the ADA, how you can get involved in disabilities rights advocacy and for ideas on how you can teach children about disabilities.

Head over to firstnamebasis.org/ADA to get the email sent straight to your inbox!

Get your Little Allies Activity Book

If you're looking for activities for your kids or students to do that are both fun and meaningful, we've got something for you!

Our Little Allies Activity Book is now available! It's basically a coloring book that is focused on allyship, and all the activities are based around anti-racism.

The Little Allies Activity Book includes:

• Color by number

• Protest I Spy

• Dot to dot

• Anti-racist word search

• Black history unscramble

• And more!

Get your hands on it today by heading to firstnamebasis.org/store!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

Amy Webb's blog, This Little Miggy Stayed Home

Amy Webb's Instagram @thislittlemiggy

"When Charley Met Emma," by Amy Webb

"Awesomely Emma," by Amy Webb

Y'all, I'm gettin' REAL in this episode.

We always talk about how anti-racism is a journey not a destination, and it's so important to take time to reflect on that journey.

So in today's episode, I'm sharing part of my journey with you!

You may have heard of the Characteristics of White Supremacy Culture developed by Tema Okun. She is a white woman who has been doing DEI work for more than 30 years, and she developed this list of 15 characteristics of white supremacy culture in the early 1990s, but the list has sort of been revived since 2020.

In this episode, I share the 15 characteristics and more about where they came from but I really zero in on two of them — perfectionism and a sense of urgency — to talk about how I've seen them playing out in my own life and use them as a reflection tool.

None of us is immune to white supremacy culture, and I'm no exception. I hope hearing me talk about my own journey gives you the chance to reflect on where you are in your anti-racism journey, including how far you've come and where you still want to go.

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Email [email protected] or visit firstnamebasis.org/workwithme for more information!

Get your Little Allies Activity Book

If you're looking for activities for your kids or students to do that are both fun and meaningful, we've got something for you!

Our Little Allies Activity Book is now available! It's basically a coloring book that is focused on allyship, and all the activities are based around anti-racism.

The Little Allies Activity Book includes:

• Color by number

• Protest I Spy

• Dot to dot

• Anti-racist word search

• Black history unscramble

• And more!

Get your hands on it today by heading to firstnamebasis.org/store!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

White Supremacy Culture by Tema Okun

One Right Way Along with Perfectionism, Paternalism, and Objectivity by Tema Okun

Sense of Urgency by Tema Okun

"Tema Okun on Her Mythical Paper on White Supremacy," Deconstructed Podcast

Bevelyn Afor Ukah

Song Credit: "Clapping Music" by BrightestAvenue and "Sunshine" by lemonmusicstudio

Parents of Black children are all too familiar with "The Talk."

"The Talk" where they teach their kids not to have their hands in their pockets at a store. "The Talk" where they teach their kids how to act around police in an attempt to keep themselves safe. "The Talk" where they teach their kids about the racism they're already experiencing and will continue to experience.

But the truth is, "The Talk" isn't something that only families with Black children should be having — it's something white children and other Children of Color should be hearing about as well so they can be part of the solution.

And this week on the podcast, I have a powerful interview with author Alicia D. Williams to talk about "The Talk," which is the subject and title of her new children's book.

Alicia is an award-winning author of books that offer understanding, empathy, hope and inspiration, including "The Talk," which received a Coretta Scott King Author Honor. She is a graduate of the MFA program at Hamline University and an oral storyteller in the African American tradition, and she lives in Charlotte, North Carolina.

In the interview, we talk about:

• The story behind her book "The Talk"

• Why white children and other Children of Color need to have the talk as well

• Tips for how to have the talk

• How to teach children about the police

• How to talk to kids about the dangers of racism while also helping them feel safe

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Email [email protected] or visit firstnamebasis.org/workwithme for more information!

Get your Little Allies Activity Book

If you're looking for activities for your kids or students to do that are both fun and meaningful, we've got something for you!

Our Little Allies Activity Book is now available! It's basically a coloring book that is focused on allyship, and all the activities are based around anti-racism.

The Little Allies Activity Book includes:

• Color by number

• Protest I Spy

• Dot to dot

• Anti-racist word search

• Black history unscramble

• And more!

Get your hands on it today by heading to firstnamebasis.org/store!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

Alicia's website

Alicia's Instagram account @authoraliciadwilliams

"The Talk" by Alicia D. Williams

All of Alicia's books on the First Name Basis Bookshop

"Watering flowers while Black: A pastor shares his story of wrongful arrest," by Jonathan Franklin, NPR

Song Credit: "Clapping Music" by BrightestAvenue and "Sunshine" by lemonmusicstudio

You probably learned in school all about the story of Francis Scott Key watching the "rockets red glare" and "bombs bursting in air" as a prisoner on a British warship and turning the experience into "The Star Spangled Banner." But, in reality, there is a lot more to this story than you learned about in history class — and a lot of what you did learn in school was false.

In this replay of one of our Untold Stories episodes, we unpack the man behind "The Star Spangled Banner," how it became our National Anthem, and whether it truly represents American values. It's the perfect episode to revisit for the Fourth of July holiday.

Juneteenth Jubilee

Juneteenth was on June 19th, but there is still time to celebrate — in fact, the Fourth of July is a great time to talk about Juneteenth! We have an exciting program to help you celebrate! Juneteenth Jubilee gives you everything you need to have a meaningful Juneteenth celebration dinner.

It includes a cookbook, a cooking show with my dad, a meal planner, reflection questions and more! Trust me, this is something your family is going to want — both for the yummy food and for the impactful conversations.

Even if you didn't celebrate on the actual day of Juneteenth, it's not too late to take the time to celebrate and reflect. So click here to invest in this resource to create a meaningful celebration for your family!

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Email [email protected] or visit firstnamebasis.org/workwithme for more information!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

Annotated National Anthem

"The Short History of the War of 1812 in Maryland"

"Star Spangled Bigotry: The Hidden Racist History of the National Anthem" by Jason Johnson

"What So Proudly We Hail," Documentary from Morgan State University

"Francis Scott Key Opposed 'Land of the Free'" by Jefferson Morley, Zinn Education Project

"Where's the Debate of Francis Scott Key's Slaveholding Legacy" by Christopher Wilson, Smithsonian Magazine

"Star Spangled Banner Born From a Drinking Song 200 Years Ago," NPR

"The Fight for the Anthem" by Felicity Knox, Towson University

Oscar Stanton De Priest

"Mississippi Lawmakers Pass Resolution Paving Way to Remove Confederate Symbol from State Flag" by Brittany Shammas, The Washington Post

Song Credit: "Clapping Music" by BrightestAvenue and "Sunshine" by lemonmusicstudio

Happy Pride my friends, especially to the LGBTQ+ members in our community!

To celebrate Pride, I wanted to share an episode from my Bite-Sized Black History program that features a Black American who was LGBTQ+.

So today, we're learning about Glenn Burke, who was the first openly gay Major League Baseball player!

Glenn Burke was an amazing athlete and always the life of the party. He wasn't afraid to be his authentic self, even when people were discriminating against him. He is even credited with creating the high-five!

Glenn's life was cut short by AIDS, and I've included in this episode some insights and lessons I learned from an LGBTQ+ activist for talking to kids about AIDS, which I hope are helpful to you as a parent, teacher or caregiver.

And I hope by listening to Glenn's story and reflecting on his life that we can be part of creating change so that others don't have to go through the same things he did.

Get your FREE coloring page to go along with the episode

Glenn Burke's story is part of my Bite-Sized Black History program, where I feature 28 different Black Americans who you may have heard of but who have largely been overlooked in the history books.

Each person is featured with a mini podcast episode, coloring page and reflection questions to help the kiddos in your life really learn about these amazing people in a meaningful way.

And to go along with this episode, I'm giving away the coloring page and questions that go along with Glenn Burke's episode!

Head over to firstnamebasis.org/mlb to get your copy sent straight to your inbox, and be sure to head over to firstnamebasis.org/blackhistory to learn more about Bite-Sized Black History.

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Email [email protected] or visit firstnamebasis.org/workwithme for more information!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 6, Episode 4: "Say This, Not That When Someone Comes Out to You" with Elena Joy Thurston

Listen to this letter that Billy Bean, the second openly gay player in the MLB, wrote to Glenn.

Watch Glenn Burke up to bat in the 1977 World Series.

Resources for teaching children about HIV/AIDS:

This video explains what HIV is.

Here is a StoryCorps episode about losing family during the AIDS epidemic

This video is about how to protect yourself and others from HIV.

This video is about what it's like to live with HIV.

This video is a segment from the Today Show called "Looking Back on 40 Years of the AIDS Epidemic."

The Reagan administration's response to the AIDS epidemic was rooted in homophobia. You'll see that through this video.

I really love amaze.org for all of the different topics they cover about sexual health.

Song Credit: "Clapping Music" by BrightestAvenue and "Sunshine" by lemonmusicstudio

This episode is a special one to me, one dedicated to all of the Black and Brown moms out there.

A lot of my Black and Brown friends who are stay-at-home moms in the thick of it with tiny kiddos have told me that they feel like they're not doing enough to contribute to the anti-racism movement.

For my friends and anyone else in this community who reads that and thinks "that's me!" I have a message for you that I hope you hear loud and clear: Being a Black or Brown stay-at-home mother is an act of resistance, an act that is SO IMPORTANT to the movement.

Please note that I am not putting down working moms down at all! I AM a working mom, and my mom was a working mom. I just don't think Black and Brown moms in particular don't hear enough that they are part of the movement and that what they are doing in their homes is such an important act toward justice and anti-racism.

Press play on the episode to hear more about what I mean. It's one you're not going to want to miss!

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Email [email protected] for more information!

Check out our summer sale

Ally Elementary Jr., Ally Elementary and Juneteenth Jubilee are all available RIGHT NOW! And to make that news even better, we're running a HUGE sale now through June 23!

With Juneteenth right around the corner, you can get $25 off Juneteenth Jubilee to help you plan the perfect Juneteenth Dinner.

Or you can get $75 off Ally Elementary Jr. or Ally Elementary, and when you purchase either of those programs, you'll get Juneteenth Jubilee FOR FREE!

No coupon code needed — the deal will automatically load itself into your cart.

If you're interested in bringing anti-racist education into your home or classroom, now is the time to get them! Summer is a great time to start using these programs in your home or to prepare to use them in your classroom.

Head over to firstnamebasis.org/allyelementary to learn more or to get the programs!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 2, Episode 26: "My Working Mom: Chasing Her Dreams"

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 2, Episode 14: "What Is Privilege And What Do I Do With It?"

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 4, Episode 8: "Can We Talk About White Privilege?"

"White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack" by Peggy McIntosh

Song Credit: "Sleeper" by Steve Adams" and "Dive Down" by VYEN

Did you read the title of this episode? It's a doozy!

As convoluted as "The Untold Story of the Story That I Told" is, I couldn't resist calling this newest episode that because of the WILD ride I went on making it.

Years ago I made an eBook called "Rise and Resist" where I highlighted five different Black people who were alive around the time of Juneteenth. I told their stories and really wanted people to use this eBook to be able to share stories of Black resistance with children and students.

I was planning on using one of those stories in today's episode as a way to illustrate how talking to kids about slavery can be complicated, but when I opened the book, I was astounded. I could not believe some of the stuff I wrote!

There were things in there that I would never say today — things I would cringe about if someone else said them, but I double cringed knowing that I wrote them!

So this episode is a little bit of what I had planned, but also a little bit of me correcting what I got totally wrong.

I hope this episode reminds you how anti-racism is a journey. It's about growth. And the best thing we can do is keep moving forward and keep trying to grow. Sometimes we'll be in a position where our growth is evident, even if it's a little embarrassing, but it's worth it. If we're not trying to make change, speaking up and telling stories, then we might miss the opportunity to try to make things right — which is something I'm trying to do today!

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Email [email protected] for more information!

Check out our Summer Sale!

We have a surprise for you — Ally Elementary Jr., Ally Elementary and Juneteenth Jubilee are all available RIGHT NOW! And to make that news even better, we're running a HUGE sale now through June 23!

With Juneteenth right around the corner, you can get $25 off Juneteenth Jubilee to help you plan the perfect Juneteenth Dinner.

Or you can get $75 off Ally Elementary Jr. or Ally Elementary, and when you purchase either of those programs, you'll get Juneteenth Jubilee FOR FREE!

No coupon code needed — the deal will automatically load itself into your cart.

If you're interested in bringing anti-racist education into your home or classroom, now is the time to get them! Summer is a great time to start using these programs in your home or to prepare to use them in your classroom.

Head over to firstnamebasis.org/allyelementary to learn more or to get the programs!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

First Name Basis Bookshop

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 1, Episode 3: "Talking to Your Children About Slavery"

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 3, Episode 26: "What is Juneteenth and How Can I Celebrate?"

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 3, Episode 7: "Service, Not Saviorism"

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 5, Episode 7: "The Untold Story of Rosa Parks"

"How the Word Is Passed: A Reckoning with the History of Slavery Across America," by Clint Smith

"They Were Her Property: White Women as Slave Owners in the American South," by Stephanie E. Jones-Rogers

"The 1619 Project: A New Origin Story," by Nicole Hannah-Jones

"Stamped from the Beginning: The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America," by Ibram X. Kendi

Juneteenth Strawberry Lemonade Cards by First Name Basis

Richmond was the second largest city in the South when Virginia seceded

Virginia was the largest Confederate state

NAACP Culpeper Branch style guide for writing and teaching about slavery

"Against Wind and Tide: The African American Struggle against the Colonization Movement," by Ousmane Power-Greene

"How a Movement to Send Formerly Enslaved People to Africa Created Liberia," by Becky Little, History.com

Elizabeth Van Lew, American Battlefield Trust

Elizabeth L. Van Lew, Library of Virginia

"American Police," Throughline Podcast, NPR

Article about Mary Jane Richards dated Oct. 7, 1865 in The Anglo-African

Info about the history of The Anglo-African

Song Credit: "Sleeper" by Steve Adams" and "Dive Down" by VYEN

I've been thinking a lot about coded language lately.

If you're unfamiliar with that term, coded language is when someone is talking negatively about a marginalized group without explicitly saying who they're talking about — but the "code" is that other people in the dominant culture know exactly who they're talking about.

While coded language is seemingly neutral, it is actually very harmful. In this episode, I share the story from my own life that is the reason why coded language has been on my mind, and you'll also hear:

• What coded language is generally

• What racist coded language is specifically

• What to do when you hear racist coded language

• Break down a few examples of codes language

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Email [email protected] or head to firstnamebasis.org/workwithme for more information!

Check out our Summer Sale!

We have a surprise for you — Ally Elementary Jr., Ally Elementary and Juneteenth Jubilee are all available RIGHT NOW! And to make that news even better, we're running a HUGE sale now through June 23!

With Juneteenth right around the corner, you can get $25 off Juneteenth Jubilee to help you plan the perfect Juneteenth Dinner.

Or you can get $75 off Ally Elementary Jr. or Ally Elementary, and when you purchase either of those programs, you'll get Juneteenth Jubilee FOR FREE!

No coupon code needed — the deal will automatically load itself into your cart.

If you're interested in bringing anti-racist education into your home or classroom, now is the time to get them! Summer is a great time to start using these programs in your home or to prepare to use them in your classroom.

Head over to firstnamebasis.org/allyelementary to learn more or to get the programs!

Articles, Studies, & Podcasts Referenced in the Episode

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 5, Episode 8: "White Children and Uncomfortable History: What Do We Do?"

Definition of coded language from Language, Please

"7 Harmful Racial Discourse Practices to Avoid," National Education Association

"Ten Stages of Genocide," The Genocide Education Project

Song Credit: "Sleeper" by Steve Adams" and "Dive Down" by VYEN

Bite-sized Black History

Bite-sized Black History is a podcast just for kids that empowers you to teach the little ones you love about brilliant Black Americans who have been largely overlooked by our history books. We featured 28 different people, one for each day of Black History Month! Invest today and use the coupon code BLACKHISTORY15 for 15% off until February 22nd.

Buy Bite-Sized Black History!

We take purchase orders! If your a teacher or librarian interested in submitting a purchase order please email us at [email protected]

Check out all 28 episodes of Bite-Sized Black History below!

Season 1 Episodes

Episode 1: Wilma Rudolph

Episode 2: Richard & Mildred Loving

Episode 3: Garrett Morgan

Episode 4: The Hines Brothers

Episode 5: Claudette Colvin

Episode 6: Sidney Poitier

Episode 7: Charles Drew

Episode 8: Marie Van Brittan Brown

Episode 9: Bayard Rustin

Episode 10: Norma Merrick Sklarek

Episode 11: Bessie Blount

Episode 12: Ella Baker

Season 2 Episodes:

Episode 1: Dr. Debi Thomas

Episode 2: Mary J. Wilson

Episode 3: Ronald McNair

Episode 4: Eartha Kitt

Episode 5: Azellia White

Episode 6: Dr. Kenneth & Dr. Mamie Phipps Clark

Episode 7: Lyda Newman

Episode 8: Gwen Ifill

Episode 9: CJ Jones

Episode 10: Marva Collins

Episode 11: Ernestine Eckstein

Episode 12: Charles L. Sifford

Grand Finale Episodes:

Episode 1: Gerald "Jerry" Lawson

Episode 2: Lois Curtis

Episode 3: Glenn Burke

Episode 4: Eloise Greenfield

Song Credit: "Sleeper" by Steve Adams" and "Dive Down" by VYEN

It's been a few months since we moved across the country from Arizona to Maryland, and I've gotten questions from so many of you wondering how we like our new home. So this week for our Season 7 finale, my husband Carter and I are giving you all the details!

We're telling you all about our opinions on the East Coast, things we miss about Arizona, how we've made friends and what we like most about our new surroundings.

Plus, I'm giving some exciting updates about some changes to the podcast next season and what you can expect from First Name Basis in the coming months. Press play to hear it!

Invite Jasmine to work with your school!

Are you a parent or teacher who wants to help your school turn good intentions into positive action by making anti-racist education a priority? First Name Basis is here to help!

Jasmine Bradshaw, the host and founder of the First Name Basis Podcast, is an anti-racist educator and former second-grade teacher who has a passion for helping schools make real change. Whether you're looking for a keynote speaker at your next PTA event, want to implement our Ally Elementary curriculum at your school, or need someone to consult with your school and provide teacher trainings, Jasmine is your go-to resource.

Head to firstnamebasis.org/workwithme or email [email protected] for more information!

Articles, Studies & Podcasts Referenced In The Episode

First Name Basis Podcast, Season 6, Episode 7: "We Are Moving Across the Country"

About Progress Podcast: "The Science of Making (and Keeping) Friends as an Adult" with Dr. Marisa G. Franco

Shameless Mom Podcast: "Kat Vellos: Secrets to Cultivating Better Friendships"

Our realtor in Maryland, Mac McCord

My photographer friend Molly Hunter

Song Credit: "Sleeper" by Steve Adams" and "Dive Down" by VYEN