NATO’s future remains in doubt as Donald Trump again threatens to pull U.S. troops from Europe. But the practical stakes of these debates aren’t always clear. What military capabilities does Europe stand to lose? How long would it take to replace them? And how might Russia exploit any gap? 

Sophia Besch, a German expert on European defense policy who has worked inside NATO, joins The World Unpacked to explore U.S. pullout scenarios — up to and including Russian attacks on the Baltics. She and host Jon Bateman dig into Europe's historic rearmament, its chance to invent a new way of war, and why peace in Ukraine could unleash new dangers. 

Find the episode transcript and streaming audio, and get the show direct to your inbox, here: https://carnegieendowment.org/preview/podcasts/the-world-unpacked/how-europe-fights-russia-without-the-us 

Host: Follow Jon on X: https://x.com/JonKBateman 

Guest: Sophia Besch: https://x.com/SophiaBesch