October 29, 2025

How to Cut Through Workplace Chaos: Nelson Repenning on Lean, Flow & Dynamic Work Design

56 minutes

My guest for Episode #538 of the Lean Blog Interviews Podcast is Nelson Repenning, Faculty Director of the MIT Leadership Center and co-creator of Dynamic Work Design.

Episode page with video, transcript, and more

Nelson describes himself as an "organizational engineer," helping leaders redesign the routines and decisions that determine how work really gets done. He joins host Mark Graban to discuss his new book, There's Got to Be a Better Way: How to Deliver Results and Eliminate the Chaos of Modern Work, co-authored with Donald Kieffer.

In this conversation, Nelson shares insights drawn from his decades of experience studying system dynamics, Lean thinking, and organizational learning. He explains how leaders often fall into the "capability trap" -- spending their days firefighting immediate issues instead of improving the underlying system. From the arms race of hospital alarms to the collapse of fast-growing companies, he connects examples from healthcare, manufacturing, and technology to show why even good intentions can create destructive feedback loops if we don't understand the system.

Mark and Nelson also explore how Dynamic Work Design translates Lean principles like flow, visualization, and problem-solving into knowledge work. They discuss the five core principles -- including "Structure for Discovery" and "Connect the Human Chain" -- that help organizations make work visible, surface problems early, and evolve systems continuously. Listeners will learn how to move from firefighting to focus, and from chaos to sustainable improvement.

Questions, Notes, and Highlights:

How did you first get involved in the field of system dynamics at MIT?

For those unfamiliar, what exactly is system dynamics -- and how does it apply to management and organizations?

Why hasn't system dynamics had the impact on practice that it deserves?

What lessons can we learn from the classic examples you've taught, like the Mississippi River levee arms race or the "People Express" airline simulation?

How do those feedback loops and unintended consequences show up in today's industries, like healthcare or tech?

What led you and Donald Kieffer to write There's Got to Be a Better Way? What core problems were you trying to address?

Can you explain the "capability trap" and how firefighting keeps organizations from improving?

Why is it so hard for people to commit to prevention and long-term improvement when firefighting feels more rewarding?

How does Dynamic Work Design help leaders "structure for discovery" and surface problems earlier?

What role does psychological safety play in making it safe to raise problems?

How do you define "Dynamic Work Design," and what makes it different from traditional management systems?

Why is it important for leaders to "go see the work" firsthand?

Can you walk us through the five principles of Dynamic Work Design -- and how they connect to Lean?

What does "Connect the Human Chain" mean, and why do so many organizations get communication wrong?

Can you share an example where these principles led to measurable improvement -- such as the hospital case you mentioned?

What can leaders learn from Toyota and other high-reliability organizations about making improvement continuous rather than episodic?

How do leaders shift from reactive, one-off change programs to daily, ongoing learning?

What message do you hope managers take away from There's Got to Be a Better Way?

This podcast is part of the #LeanCommunicators network.

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By Mark Graban

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