Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call, text 988 **

My friend JaQuavious Harris (late 20s, lives in Utah, world class runner including a 2:13 marathon finish) joins us to share his story about Jesus being the center of everything and his invitation for all of us to do the same. JaQuavious shares:

Growing up LDS in South Carolina. Mother had him at age 13

Love of running and making his way to BYU

Argentina mission—come home to address mental health

Coming out to himself (and then others) as gay

How his BYU Eternal Families class and constant focus on straight marriage caused him to feel like an abomination leading to believe “I am going to hell and I’m living in hell”

All this led to an unsuccessful suicide attempt

Following all this, he took to social media to help other come unto Christ and find hope

Wise and powerful words from his dying father in 2022

How people can better love and support him

Why he stays an active Latter-day Saint

His impactful and inspiriting mission to help others

Thank you JaQuavious for being on the podcast. Your courage, heart, and goodness inspire me. You are so brave. Your story is helping so many know that God loves them and Christ should be the focus of our lives.

I encourage everyone to listen/share JaQuavious’ podcast and follow his Instagram account.

You are a good man JaQuavious (and a super-fast runner). Honored to have you on the show.

Links:

Instagram: @harrisjaquavious

My friends Patrick Mason (Holds the Leonard J. Arrington Chair of Mormon History and Culture at Utah State University) and Melissa Mason (Clinical Social Worker, Master of Social Work, Utah State University) join us to talk about their new book called “Rooted: Centering Christ in Everything”

The authors share that too often, Latter-day Saints have centered their religious lives on rules, worthiness, obedience, institutional loyalty, and cultural expectations rather than on Jesus Christ Himself. They invite readers to rethink what it means to be a disciple of Christ—placing greater emphasis on grace, compassion, love, belonging, and the transforming power of Jesus Christ.

Their message isn't that commandments, covenants, or Church participation don't matter. Rather, these things should point us toward Christ, not become substitutes for Him. They offer practical suggestions to bring Christ the focus of our church talks, lessons, conversation—and in all aspects of our lives.

This is a super powerful podcast to help all of us better focus on Christ. Thank you, Melissa and Patick, for being on the podcast. I encourage everyone to read their book as we work to become a more Zion people.

Links:

Book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1639935703

New he was different as a child—but felt loved and supported by his family

Didn’t fit in with the boys—had lots of girlfriends (but never romantic)

Felt belonging with the high school swim team

Went on a mission (still closeted) praying “God will finally cure this”—felt “tormented all the time”

Great mission experience—felt brotherhood and belonging

Crushing post-mission life at BYU realizing he is still gay and falling in love with a roommate

Finally had the courage to talk to his BYU bishop about his attraction to men. Bishop rejected him and forced to withdraw from BYU

Jess asks, “what do you do with the Bishop rejects you” and “not even worth trying to help”

Come out to his parents

Started to accept being gay and date men—that acceptance helped him to thrive in school and have hope

Married Alex in 2015—great marriage

“Fully embraced Babylon—eventually “life collapsed”

Unconditional love from family and some spiritual experiences caused him to consider God and the Church again

Starting to attend his San Diego Ward—deep feelings of belonging

Incredible things his Ward did to help him and Alex feel welcome—including assignments for Jess like working tours for the San Diego Temple Open House

Reading the Book of Mormon and knowing God loves Jess

Non-agenda love from his LDS community to both him and Alex

This is one of the best episodes we’ve recorded—Jess is one of my new heroes. Jess is honest about incredibility difficult church and extended family experiences, and how he has been able to get past those experiences to reconsider the Church again and is now feeling love, acceptance, and a needed member of the congregation.

It is the best episode on what a ward family can do to support a couple in a same-sex marriage.

Thank you, Jess, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You are a good man with a great heart, testimony, and ability to give hope to others. Honored to have you on the podcast. Glad you and Alex have each other

Thank you, listeners, for listening/sharing this episode.

Links:

YouTube: https://youtube.com/@sandiegodogdads

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogtopians_of_san_diego

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jess.porter.77

My friend Thomas Hostetter (mid-30s, lives in southern Colorado, engaged to be married to his future husband, deep testimony of the Church) joins us to share his remarkable story, including:

- Growing up and having an interest in men—but never realizing he was gay

- After his mission, falling in love with his straight roommate, realizing he might be gay, and experiencing heartbreak when that friendship ended—driving him back into the closet and leading him to date women

- Long journey dating women and not being able to make that work

- Dating men and feeling genuine connection (romantic, emotional, and physical)

- Deep testimony of the Church and desire for a long-term partnership

- Meeting Al and falling in love—a beautiful and healthy relationship, especially after years of dating experience

- Panic attack as he realized he was not going to be able to fully participate in the Church he believes to be true

- His debut novel, *Grammar of the Scar* (see show notes)

- Backstory of the name of his book—discussion of vocabulary and scars—super unique insights

- Importance of personal revelation and his hope for the future

This episode is full of unique insights to help other LGBTQ folks and all the rest of us. Thomas has been on this road for 20+ years and brings all his lived experiences to his new book and this podcast.

Thank you, Thomas, for being on the podcast. You are inspiring. You are a good man, and I’m glad you and Al have found each other. I’m glad you have “someone who wants to love you back.” You are a good man.

I encourage everyone to listen to and share this episode, and to read Thomas’s book.

**Links**

Thomas’s debut novel, *Grammar of the Scar*, by T.H. Calder, on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0HN8SLZZ6

Thomas on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thomash.hostetter

YouTube of this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRmvSvqs-zU

My friend Jess Porter (oldest of six, Hong Kong RM, married husband in 2015) joins us to share his super unique and remarkable story including:

Knew he was different as a child—but felt loved and supported by his family

Didn’t fit in with the boys—had lots of girlfriends (but never romantic)

Felt belonging with the high school swim team

Went on a mission (still closeted) praying “God will finally cure this”—felt “tormented all the time”

Great mission experience—felt brotherhood and belonging

Crushing post-mission life at BYU realizing he is still gay and falling in love with a roommate

Finally had the courage to talk to his BYU bishop about his attraction to men. Bishop rejected him and forced to withdraw from BYU

Jess asks, “what do you do with the Bishop rejects you” and “not even worth trying to help”

Come out to his parents

Started to accept being gay and date men—that acceptance helped him to thrive in school and have hope

Married Alex in 2015—great marriage

“Fully embraced Babylon—eventually “life collapsed”

Unconditional love from family and some spiritual experiences caused him to consider God and the Church again

Starting to attend his San Diego Ward—deep feelings of belonging

Incredible things his Ward did to help him and Alex feel welcome—including assignments for Jess like working tours for the San Diego Temple Open House

Reading the Book of Mormon and knowing God loves Jess

Non-agenda love from his LDS community to both him and Alex

This is one of the best episodes we’ve recorded—Jess is one of my new heroes. Jess is honest about incredibility difficult church and extended family experiences, and how he has been able to get past those experiences to reconsider the Church again and is now feeling love, acceptance, and a needed member of the congregation.

It is the best episode on what a ward family can do to support a couple in a same-sex marriage.

Thank you, Jess, for being on the podcast. Your story will help so many. You are a good man with a great heart, testimony, and ability to give hope to others.

Honored to have you on the podcast. Glad you and Alex have each other

Thank you, listeners, for listening/sharing this episode.

Links:

YouTube: https://youtube.com/@sandiegodogdads

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dogtopians_of_san_diego

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jess.porter.77

YouTube on this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZKHR7AOAbwg

My friend Heidi (straight) and Daniel (gay) join us to share their powerful story including:

* Daniel came out to Heidi about 6 years ago, after 18 years of marriage

* Their marriage today is more honest, healthier, and stronger than it has ever been

* Things that helped Daniel end shame, find hope, and why he came out to Heidi.

* How Heidi (who became a Marriage and Family Therapist during this time) navigated her honest feelings “no one believes in my marriage” and a discussion on “what are my tears about”—and learned to address and understand them.

* How they have seen God's hand in their individual journeys

* How/why they gradually started sharing their story with others and things people did to support them in being so vulnerable

* Why Heidi started Complex Couples Coaching and a podcast for others facing uncertainty in their relationships (link below)

* Super helpful insights about coming out to their children (4 boys and 1 girl) and their children’s love and acceptance of their Dad—and how being a great Dad is not connected to sexual orientation.

* Daniel's deep acceptance of himself—including not “waving a wand to have this taken away”

This is a super powerful podcast—one of the best mixed orientation marriages podcasts we’ve done. It also has super unique and helpful insights from Heidi—the straight spouse learning about all this after 18 years of marriage and navigating all those emotions/questions.

Thank you, Heidi and Daniel, for sharing your story and all you are doing to help us create Zion and come together as the same human family.

Note: Heidi and Daniel will be in a breakout session at Gather on Friday November 13th (see show notes for registration info and a 20% discount).

Links:

Complex Couples Podcast: https://www.complexcouplescoaching.com/podcasts/complex-couples-podcast

For coaching with Heidi: https://www.complexcouplescoaching.com/coaching-application

Gather Conference: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather (use code OSLTER26 for a 20% discount)

My friends Dr. Lance Peterson and Dr. Angela Baerwolf join us to talk about their new research called “Acceptance Journeys of LDS Families of their LGB Child: An Interpretative Phenomenological Analysis”. Their article is published in the “Families in Society: The Journal of Contemporary Social Servies” (see show notes).

Lance and Angela talk about how their team (which includes Sarah Chan Peterson and Katelyn Opperman) conducted qualitative research from ten of the brave stories shared on our podcast and using those stories to create four key themes of parents acceptance and love for their LGB child.

In the podcast, they discuss the methodology (super fascinating), research, and their finding around these four themes:

1) Self-education and internal growth

2) Creating support and finding community

3) Encouraging and Supporting Spirituality

4) Sacred Advocacy and Spiritual Work

I learn so much from their research. If are a parent, ally, or friend to an LGB person, I encourage you to listen to their podcast and check out their research. It will help you and empower you to better support the good LGB/Queer people in your life—and also give you ideas on how to be a “pioneer” to help others.

Thank you, Lance, Angela, Sara, and Kate, for your much needed work. You give me hope. I encourage everyone to check out this episode and their research.

Links:

Research link (behind a paywall): https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/10443894261471608

Social Work Collaboration on Religion, Sexuality and Gender: https://sites.google.com/view/socialworkcollaborative/home

Lance Peterson’s e-mail: [email protected]

Lance’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lance-peterson-phd-licsw-b5a147b

Angela’s email: [email protected]

Angela’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angelabaerwolf/

Angela’s article based on her dissertation: LGBTQ+ youth experiences of the COVID-19 pandemic as observed through gender-sexuality alliance advisors

Dr. Jennifer Dobberfuhl Quinlan (PhD in Instructional Psychology and Technology from BYU, MTC Director managed the language curriculum development across more than 60 languages, mother of 3, early 50s,) joins us to share her story including:

* Being sexually fluid

* Having few resources and others with the same shared experience to give perspective and hope

* Lots of advice from people—much of which was painful—but also giving grace to them

* Dealing with and working through shame of not having it all figured out

* Working through her darkest days being suicidal—how she felt “my life was ruining the lives of those around me”.

* How she found a way forward with hope—and how her story gives hope to others

Managing her “toolbox”—great insights

* Upcoming Gather Conference (Nov 13-14, 2026, see show notes)

This is one of the bravest stories ever shared—the first with someone being sexually fluid. I learned so much from Jennifer.

Thank you, Jennifer, for being on the podcast and helping our LGBTQ friends find hope in their story by listening to the principals, perspectives, and gospel insights you shared. Your story also helps us allies better support the good LGBTQ friends and family in our lives.

I encourage everyone to listen to Jennifer’s podcast and attend Gather.

Links:

Gather Conference: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather

Jennifer’s email: [email protected]

This is a short podcast where I read excerpts from three Substack articles on this subject:

Substack excerpt one: My thoughts on this subject as a former YSA Bishop

Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/thoughts-on-masturbation-after-serving

Substack excerpt two: Anonymous male: “My lifelong struggle against masturbation and shame, and how individuals, families and the church as a whole can reduce the shame around masturbation.”

Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/overcoming-masturbation-and-shame

Substack excerpt two: Anonymous female: “I wanted to expand this great dialogue about masturbation to address the underlying reasons many YSA’s turn to this in context of their alternative choices.”

Full Substack: https://papaostler.substack.com/p/how-it-feels-to-be-an-older-24-ysa

Note: My Substack is free and will always be free

** This episode talks about suicide. If you are suicidal, please call/text/chat *988 ***

My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (twin brothers in their 20s, from Mesa Arizona, brother Sam died by suicide 16 while they were missionaries) talk about their work:

* Being mental health advocates and fitness coaches to help others find hope and end shame

* Helping those who are suicidal find hope and how Sam tied his identity to perfectionism

* Normalizing honest and vulnerable discussions—how these are healthy male attributes

* Coping with grief—how they turned to overeating and pornography use—how they learned to heal through Jesus and therapy

* How shame dies in opening up and vulnerability

* Their work to support the LGBTQ community

* What we can do in our families and church communities to make it safer for suicidal folks to open up

Jake and Joe are on a mission to bring people closer to Christ, reduce shame, role-model vulnerability, and help others find hope. I am deeply moved by and supportive of their work. They inspire me.

Please listen/share this episode and contact with their social media platforms (see below). And (as mentioned in the podcast) if you are in a position to help them set up a 501c non-profit (or help an any way you feel inspired) please reach out to them. I feel impressed their work is just beginning in our community.

Thank you, Jake and Joe, for all your great work. Honored to have you on the show.

Links:

Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit

Earlier episode 811: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/episode-811-jake-and-joe-sharp-lost-brother-sam-to/id1347971725?i=1000691741343

Richard Ostler Substack on masturbation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-215364913

My friend Pam Shepherd, a communications professional at George Mason University and a sixth-generation Latter-day Saint, joins us to share some of her journey growing up Mormon while not always feeling like she fit the traditional Mormon mold. Pam talks about navigating that experience at BYU and later as a young single adult in the Washington, DC area. She also discusses her desire to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women (ages 18-29) on a variety of issues. That curiosity led to a research project for which she is currently seeking anonymous survey participants (see show notes for details).

Thank you, Pam, for sharing both your personal story and the motivation behind this important research. Your experiences navigating life both within and outside traditional Mormon expectations give you a unique perspective as you seek to better understand the experiences of Gen Z Utah Latter-day Saint women. I appreciate your willingness to undertake this work and contribute meaningful data to an area where little research currently exists. It was a pleasure having you on the podcast.

If you are a Gen Z LDS woman, I encourage you to fill out Pam’s survey.

Survey: https://gmu.az1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_eE9q7qaZAsdbAHA

Email: [email protected]

Instagram: @pammyshep