My friends Dave and Kirty Zimmerman (married parents of four, active LDS, live in Utah County) join us to share their story of loving/supporting their gay son Dallin who came out at age 13 and is currently serving a mission. Highlights include:

* Age 13: “Mom, What if I’m Gay?”

* Dave, Kirty, and Dallin walking that road alone for three years without telling anyone. Very difficult road for all three. Positive and negative ward experiences.

* Watching the “light go out” of Dallin—and how coming out helped everyone

* Dallin (working closely with his parents but letting Dallin take the lead) coming out to family, friends, and his Ward family

* Working closely with the Bishop and Ward Council to counsel together and how to best support Dallin—super helpful

* Helpful Bishop and Stake President

* No pressure for Dallin to serve a mission—yet Dallin chose this so he “could share God’s love with others”

* In the celestial room together with Dallin sharing he will never be able to make the next temple covenant—knowing he won’t be able to make it work with a woman

* Importance of support for LDS parents walking this road—and how the Ward family can make all the difference for their journey with the Church

* Kirty: “Some of the best parts of Dallin are the parts that are gay”

* Importance of letting LGBTQ people use the labels they prefer—and how telling people not to take on a label creates shame—and how that is inconsistent with other LDS groups

This is one of the finest podcasts we’ve done on how to support a queer child (out in early teenage years) navigating that with friends, family, and church community. So insightful—and helps all of us consider what we can do to support closeted families in our circle of influence. Also, one of the finest podcasts to help us better understand, support, and love a younger queer Latter-day Saint.

Thank you, Dave and Kirty, for being on the podcast and sharing your family story. Thanks for your courage to do this. You are helping create Zion. Much love and respect to the Zimmerman family.

Thank you Elder Dallin Zimmerman for allowing your parents to share your story. I feel you are concurrently serving two missions—your mission in South American and your mission with your powerful story being shared—both to help everyone know God loves them.

** Note: Dave and Kirty with be part of a parent breakout session at Gather (Nov 12-14 in Provo, Utah). See show notes for more information and how to register **

Links:

Instagram @dave_zman: https://www.instagram.com/dave_zman

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Dizzi45Z

Instagram @kirtyz: https://www.instagram.com/kirtyz

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kirtyz

Gather Conference Nov 12-14: https://www.liftandlove.org/gather

Faith Matters Episode: https://www.faithmatters.org/p/when-your-child-comes-out-as-gay

My friend Dr. Taylor Petrey (prior editor of Dialogue: a journal of Mormon thought, BA in philosophy and religion from Pace University, and both an MTS and a Th.D. degree from Harvard Divinity School in New Testament and Early Christianity, Professor at Kalamazoo College) joins us to talk about his new Dialogue article called: “History and Theology of Trans and Nonbinary Identity in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (see show notes).

Taylor powerful article takes us through the Church’s history to address transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saint issues starting in the 1970’s through the latest policy statements in 2024 (super painful for many transgender/non-binary folks and their families). Taylor talks about how society generally moved on from the wedge issue of same-sex marriage to a new fear-based wedge issue of transgender and non-binary folks and how that has informed many church members feelings on this topic.

Taylor—through extensive interviews with transgender and non-binary folks—talks about how they feel about being transgender/non-binary and how those insights should help inform us how we should feel about them. Taylor—a noted theologian—talks about possible ways our theology has room for our transgender/non-binary friends.

I learned so many from Taylor. I encourage everyone to read his Dialog article, listen to this episode, and listen to lots of transgender/non-binary to inform our insights/conclusions about these good folks.

Thank you, Taylor, for you much needed work in our community.

Links:

Taylor’s Dialogue Article: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/articles/history-and-theology-of-trans-and-nonbinary-identity-in-the-church-of-jesus-christ-of-latter-day-saints/

Other Dialogue Transgender Content: https://www.dialoguejournal.com/curated-topics/transgender/

My friend Lucas Montoya (gay/queer, mid-20s, lives/works in Texas, RM, University of Chicago graduate) joins us to share his powerful story:

* Founding of “RELIC” by LDS connected students at the University of Chicago (community, support, and Journal)

* Overview of the articles in the RELIC Journal (see show notes)

* Writing is a tool for building community

* Lucas’ own journey to go from deep shame/internalized homophobia—to deep acceptance of his queerness

* Powerful personal revelation—his personal “Pearl of Gay Price”—to accept/love his queerness. This is title of his RELIC Journal article

* How personal prayer helped him in the coming out process (mission president and parents)

* How dating men helped him learn his is lovable—helped him feel hope for this future—“lock box key”

Thank you, Lucas, for sharing your powerful story of self-love and acceptance. Your story helps other queer people find hope in their lives. You are a good man with a wonderful future. Thanks for all you have done to bless so many along the way. Honored to have you on the podcast. Thanks for your efforts to build Zion.

I encourage everyone to listen to and share Lucas’ podcast and check out RELIC.

Links:

RELIC website: https://uchicagorelic.org

RELIC Journal: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1UFhYa5kAehdp_mSwfdxvdIfZuTYwjLIH/view

Salt Lake Tribune Article: Salt Lake Tribute Article: https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2026/08/22/lds-students-dallin-oaks-alma/

My friend Olivia Burnett (mid-20s, Utah State graduate, University of Utah MBA) joins us to share her some of her personal story and her groundbreaking and highly successful podcast called “Twenty Something with Olivia Burnett” (see show notes).

* Death of her dad Kevin and the resulting depression

* Super honest and vulnerable sharing of her depression (feeling lost, forgotten and confused), what was helpful, what was not helpful and how things improved

* Positive take on anger—super insightful

* Powerful testimony of God’s love for all of us

* Life in the “messy middle”

* Her new and super successful podcast called “Twenty Something with Olivia Burnett”. Why she started it and what she hopes to accomplish

* Why she stays in the Church and her advice for others trying to stay in the Church

Thank you, Olivia, for being on the podcast and bravely sharing your story. And mega respect for your new podcast—the work you are doing in our community is so needed. Thank you for helping everyone feel God’s love and Christ in their lives. You are awesome.

I encourage everyone to follow and share Olivia’s podcast.

Links:

Instagram: @twenysomething_podcast

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs83WX_XVbjT1VENrzl3TKQ

TikTok: @twentysomething_podcast

E-mail: [email protected]

Olivia’s Dad Kevin’s Obituary: https://www.premierfuneral.com/obituaries/kevin-burnett-2/obituary

My friend Hannah Larson (age 30, lives in New York, RM, founder of Humans of BYU, former seminary teacher, single) joins us to share her story.

Hannah talks about:

Powerful testimony of God’s love for all of us—and deep desire for everyone to feel that .

Author of Diary of a Mormon Girl

Teaching seminary—but being let go after one year. Super traumatizing experience. Put her whole soul into that assignment to help her students feel God’s love and being a safe place.

Experienced pain of patriarchy, went into deep depression, how/why she didn’t leave the church

Proactively met with prior Priesthood Leaders who harder her—mixed experiences—super brave—discussion of gaslighting

How she is now on the margins as an unmarried 30-year-old

How her value isn’t about “who she might be dating”—but her relationship with Jesus Christ

Creating a safe community online & IRL for people in the church who want to discuss the complicated issues (see show notes)

Why so many Gen Z women are leaving the church—and the need for honest conversations

Her upcoming new book about finding God in her romantic relationships and dating experiences .

Hannah is one of our bravely guests as she talks about the patriarchy/sexism/gaslighting that is part of our culture and how she is navigating those issues. Hannah talks about making it “all about Jesus” and how important that framework is to moving forward.

Please check out Hannah’s social media (see show notes) to connect with her needed work in our community. Thank you, Hannah, for being on the podcast. You give me hope. You are awesome!

Links:

Hannah’s IG: @honest_han

Substack: hannahklarson.substack.com

My friend John Bushman (30+ years teaching Institute/Seminary) joins us to talk about his new book “King Before Kingdom: Faithful Revival Within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”.

In this episode and his book, John talks about specific areas we can improve our culture so that more feel welcome and needed. John also talks about moving from a checklist/legalistic approach to living the gospel—to making it all about coming unto Christ. John offers valuable doctrinal insights from the scriptures that support this approach—and what we can do better to support others.

If you are looking for a much-needed book to read and share with others, please listen to this episode and read John’s book.

Thank you, John for writing this book, being on the podcast, and your decades of teaching to help others come unto Christ. Your discipleship is so needed in our community. You give me hope.

Links:

John’s website (with links to the book): www.johnbushman.com or https://www.johnbushman.com/king-before-kingdom.html There you can read a sample chapter or listen on audio. Also links to other podcasts and reels on Social Media. Also reviews on Amazon and the many ways to buy the book.

My friend Jon Larsen (married father of three, lives in Cedar City, 25+ years clinical experience) and Brooklyn Larsen (BYU student, early returned missionary from Argentina, service missionary) join us to talk about their new and needed podcast called “Returned Stronger”.

The podcast (and Jon’s life coaching work) focuses on helping early return missionaries find their way forward on principles based on worth, value, and God’s love for them—and how “God never speaks to someone through shame”.

In this episode Brooklyn bravely shares her journey with her mental health and why her mission needed to end to return home to get the necessary care she needed. Brooklyn talks honestly about this difficult road—and what gave her hope including deciding to serve a service mission and start their podcast. Jon talks about his role as her father to love and support her and his clinical expertise to support early return missionaries and their families.

I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with the “Returning Stronger” podcast (see show notes). This will help you better love and support the missionaries in your life. And if you are planning on serving a mission, their podcast will help you better prepare for your mission.

Links:

Facebook, TikTok and Instagram: @ReturningStronger

Podcast: https://youtube.com/@returningstronger

Website: https://returningstronger.com

My friend Kari Bates (mother of six, lives in Elko NV, life coach) and Kimberly Bates (HR professional living in NYC) joins us to talk about their new podcast called “Coffee and Cocoa”.

Their podcast focused on how Kari and Kimberly reframed/rebuilt their relationship on five core principles after Kimbery left the Church. They talk about the early years, the mistakes they made, and how they learned and implemented new tools/perspectives to preserve their relationship. And how their relationship is now beyond preserving the relationship but thriving. It is a beautiful family love story. And a story that they felt impressed to share with others through their new awesome podcast.

If you are looking for a real-life story and actionable principles of preserving/growing a family relationship where there are differences in religious and/or political beliefs, I encourage you to listen/connect with their podcast.

Thank you, Kari and Kimberly, for being on the podcast and your much-needed work in our community to build bridges. You two are awesome!

Links:

Kari’s Instagram: @karibatesfamilycoach

Coffee and Cocoa Podcast: https://www.karibates.com/coffee-cocoa-podcast

My friend Jerry Chong (active LDS, Temple worker, many leadership callings, lives in Calgary Canada, convert, powerful advocate for LGBTQ inclusion) joins us to share his story (was on Episode 41, 8 years ago):

Advocacy work with Stake and Ward Leaders across the world (Canada, USA, UK, Brazil, etc)

How to approach stake presidents and ward leaders to engage them in LGBTQ Inclusion and Sensitivity training for leaders and members . The email communications and patience that is required for these meetings to come together .

What he teaches at these meetings

Being a temple worker and explaining his singleness to fellow workers and temple presidencies

Creating boundaries with homophobic church members

Personal sacrifice and loneliness of being celibate—with no hope of companionship if he wants to remain a member is good standing

Series of essays he’s written. E-mail Jerry if you want a copy (see show notes)

Being an ally for transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saints . Arranging video conversations to learn about their lived experiences and the impact of church policies

Hopes to start dating men. Going slow. Would like to be married and share the last chapters of his life with someone

Thank you, Jerry, for being on the podcast. You are one of my heroes—sacrificing so much to be in a position where you can help advocate for better LGBTQ understanding and inclusion. You have blessed so many through your ministry. You are a true disciple of Christ. Honored to have you on the podcast.

Please listen and share Jerry’s episode. It will help you be a better ally and will help you if for you are queer Latter-day Saint.

Links:

Jerry’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jerry.chong.52

Jerry’s IG: @mrjerrychong

Jerry’s e-mail: [email protected]

Episode 41: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-41-jerry-chong-gay-mormon-convert-calgary-temple-worker

Ministering Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Richard Ostler Substack on The Family Proclamation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-209436738

My friend Michael Young (active LDS, lives in Florida, Senior Service Missionary) joins us to share his outstanding story navigate being gay for 7+ decades:

Part of the gay New York underworld in the 60s—including visiting Stonewall—but deeply closeted

Career in health care

Helpful therapist to get him through anger and distrust and overcome childhood trauma

Believed in God—and upset with God

Powerful spiritual experience in small Catholic chapel—sins forgiven and a great weight lifted

Getting married to a woman—told her about being gay—good married for 39 years—but ended

Along with his wife, joined the Church in 1983 (living in Ohio) after investigating Church for 18 months

Navigating President Kimball’s teachings about homosexuality (stuff we don’t teach anymore)

Extensive church service (Bishoprics, Temple, etc)

Moving to Florida after his divorce

Coming out to his Ward (positive experience)

Great ward/stake support for LGBTQ members

Wearing a pride pin to Church because “shows God loves all his creations”

Powerful person revelation that God made him Gay and God loves him—he is not broken and doesn’t need fixing

Why he stays in the Church

No one should feel shame for who they are

At age 82, Michael is our oldest queer podcast guest. He takes us back to an era where being gay was much more difficult (gay bashing, fear of losing job). Yet, his story is so similar to other queer Latter-day Saints in the personal revelation they are receiving and the complexity of their journey. Michael is bright, articulate, super insightful, and has a powerful story.

If you are queer or an ally, please listen and share Michael’s powerful podcast—it will help all of us. You are a good man Michael—one of my new heroes. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thanks for all you have done to bless so many during your life.

Links:

Michael on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michael.young.304565