My friend Trevor Schoeny (RM from Lubbock Texas, returned Dec 2024, from Virgina/DC, BYU student, Age 23) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Trevor starts with realizing he is gay and then coming out to his parents after his senior year (positive experience). Trevor talks about stepping away from the Church (which helped him eventually come back to the Church) and his brave (and somewhat surprising) decision to serve a mission (and walk back into a place of trauma)—because he wanted to help others heal from pain and find love.

Trevor (who reads scriptures throughout the podcast) talks about all the things he learned and taught on his mission including:

* Fear has no place in the Gospel

* His crucible moment when he decided to stay on his mission

* No one should feel they are not celestial material

* Importance of vulnerability

* Finding our story in the scriptures

I was so moved listening to and learning from Trevor—a great man who was been through the “winepress” representing the difficult road of a queer Latter-day Saint—and his ability to help others find hope, belonging and peace. You are a man of great courage.

You are a good man, Trevor. I’m honored to have you on the podcast. Everyone in the Church needs to hear like Trevor as we build Zion. Please listen and share this episode.

Links:

Trevor on FB: https://www.facebook.com/trevorschoeny

Trevor on IG: https://www.instagram.com/trevorschoeny/

Trevor’s e-mail: [email protected]

My friend Matt Higinbotham (RM from Tempe Arizona, returned Feb 2024, from Utah County, BYU student) joins us to share his story as a gay Latter-day Saint. Matt talks about his early years figuring out his sexuality and his journey to realize (and then accept) he is gay. Matt talks about the role of prayer, scripture study, and temple attendance to help feel God’s love, acceptance, hope for his future and the desire to serve/help others (a big reason he did the podcast).

Matt talks about his desire to serve a mission and how that hope eventually became a reality—all while being open with his church leaders about his sexual orientation. Matt talks about the positive and painful experience of being gay and on a mission. Some the negative ones were around gay jokes (missionaries and members) and some of the positive ones were where being open about being gay allowing him to help others know they too could feel God’s love, and acceptance.

Matt talks about how navigating a variety of experience (including Church leader talks that were painful), being an EFY counselor (and teaching the Family Proclamation), seeing the Y lit up in pride colors, unfairness (compared to straight members) of being gay (and not having a path to have a marriage and still fully participate in the Church).

I learned so much from Matt—a thoughtful, spiritually mature, deeply insightful, and remarkable man. You are a good man Matt with a wonderful future. Thank you for blessing so many people on your mission and doing this podcast which will give others hope—and help us better love and support each other as we build Zion.

Links:

Matt on Facebook: www.facebook.com/matthew.higinbotham.5

Matt on IG: @matthiggy134

Matt’s e-mail: [email protected]

My friends Jake and Joe Sharp (identical twins, age 24, from Mesa Arizona, RMs) join us to talk about their life work to help others choose to stay, turn to positive coping behaviors, finding hope and the role of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal from pain.

Jake and Joe start with the story of losing their younger brother Sam to suicide at age 16 while they were on their missions. They talk about the goodness of Sam—as well as the difficult mental health challenges (OCD, toxic perfection, etc) that Sam faced, and all their family was doing to help him find hope. They talk about the heartbreaking pain, anger, and guilt they faced—and how Christ and therapy has helped them heal.

They talk about unhealthy coping behaviors to deal with the pain (pornography use and overeating) and how they learned better tools/behaviors helping to be in a better place. They talk about shame and how that is Satan’s greatest tool to separate us from the love of our Heavenly Parents and the Savior—and how shame has no place in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

They talk about the importance of vulnerability, therapy, fitness, doing a “forgive fast” for ourselves, we are not broken, and our Savior to give hope/peace. If you are suicidal, Jake and Joe’s story will help you. We all invite you to stay. If you are working through grief of losing someone to suicide, their story will help you. If you are working to solve porn use (or better tools to help others), their story will help you.

Thank you, Jake and Joe, for being on the podcast. I learned so much from you. Thank you for your courage to talk about these subjects to give others hope. You are good men doing many hope/healing in our community. Honored to have you on the podcast.

Links:

Jake and Joe’s Instagram and TikTok: @jdoufit

Their Mom’s Podcast (Pam Sharp): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fight-hard-love-much/id1615231547

My friend Dr. Matthew L Harris (Historian, Colorado State University) joins us to talk about his powerful new book called “Second-Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality”— a fifteen-year labor of love. In Matt’s book (which was a powerful read for me), he draws on never-before-seen private papers of LDS apostles and church presidents—including Spencer W. Kimball to help us understand the complexity of ending the ban—something that President Kimball considered long before becoming Church President.

Matt talks about why the ban started, who started it, how it became official doctrine for decades, and what shifted to cause church leaders to end the ban. Matt also talks about why ending the ban didn’t end racist teachings about black people—how all those prior teachings have now been refuted—but still might exists in our culture.

Matt discusses key questions like was the ban doctrine or policy? Was it “just not time yet to end the ban”? And other important questions. Matt also talks about the importance of proximity by senior church leaders to those hurt by the ban and how those stories/experience changed hearts and were key to considering lifting it.

Matt also shares insights on possible parallels to the priesthood ban and the experience of LGB Latter-day Saints who may also feel like “second-class saints”.

I learned so much from Matt’s book and loved having him on the podcast. I encourage everyone to read his book and then consider what each of us can do to better support those of the margins.

Links:

Matt’s book at Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/019769571X

Matt’s webpage: https://matthewlharris.org/

My friend Richard Hanks (mid 60s, retired business executive, active Latter-day Saint/former Mission President) joins us to talk about his biography of his father Elder Marion D. Hanks (beloved general authority—called at age 31—who lived from 1921-2011) in his book called “To Be a Friend of Christ: The Life of Marion D. Hanks.”

Richard talks about his father’s unique approach to the gospel and his work—focused on following Christ—advocating for: increasing the church's humanitarian efforts, Christian service by full-time missionaries, acceptance of those on the fringes, the creation of singles wards, combining High Priests and Elders quorums, adapting garments to local climates, civil marriage before sealings, a kinder and more merciful approach to repentance, and a strong/vocal desire to end the priesthood ban—all while being deeply committed to the Church and supportive of its leaders.

Richard talks about key areas of his father’s ministry including “aggressive Christianity versus aggressive proselytizing”; “souls versus statistics ”; and “this is the only true church/others are wrong" versus "The more excellent way.” He further talks about his father’s work to focus the mission of the Church on Christ, bring the Christus to Temple Square, teaching faith over dogma and certitudes, and principles to help those with legitimate concerns stay in the Church.

I was always aware of and grateful for the ministry of Elder Hanks, but it wasn’t until becoming familiar with Richard’s book about his father, that I realized how unique, progressive, and needed was his ministry in the Church, all he accomplished, and the many lives he blessed being laser focused on helping people "Come unto Christ."

If you are looking for hope for the future of the Church and how your contributions are needed, I encourage you to read Richard’s book. Thank you, Richard, for making this book possible, and for your work to create Zion.

Links:

Richard’s book at Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1560854723

Contacting Richard: [email protected]

My friend Hailey Kynaston (Anaheim California RM, BYU-I marriage and family studies major, grew up in Davis County) bravely joins us to share her story. Hailey starts with her journey coming to terms with her sexual orientation during her high school years, dating girls secretly, as well as dating boys. Hailey talks about her journey to attend her YSA ward, working to gain a testimony and ultimately serving a successful mission.

Hailey talks about the transformative experiences on her mission that helped her develop a deeper relationship with Christ, find more hope/peace, and clarity about her future—including keeping her covenants and hopes to marry a man in the temple.

Hailey shares her post-mission coming out post (super powerful—with a focus on her primary identity as a daughter of loving Heavenly Parents—insights about our Savior—and hopes for her future).

Hailey talks about the support she feels at North Star and its upcoming conference (Feb 27 – March 1st) and the YSA group she is leading. We both invite you to consider attending North Star this year (see show notes for more information).

Thank you, Hailey, for being on the podcast and your courage to share your story. You are brave and courageous—and you being open helps so many.

Links:

Hailey’s Facebook: www.facebook.com/hailey.kynaston.33

Hailey’s Instagram: @hailey_kyn

Hailey’s e-mail: [email protected]

North Star Conference: northstarconference.org

My friend Candice Clark (mother of 5, lives in Iowa City, Iowa) joins us to share her story of her journey to love, understand, and accept her queer kids—and the blessings of using their preferred pronouns.

Candice is open about the sometimes choppy road to using preferred pronouns—but talks about how that brought improved relationships and more love, open communication, and genuine family unity and understanding. She shares ten messages a queer person might hear when we use their pronouns:

You know yourself better than I know you.

I would rather change the way I speak about you than hurt you repeatedly.

Your sense of safety is important to me.

Your identity is real and should be acknowledged.

I want to teach everyone around me to respect you.

Being uncomfortable is fine if I avoid being offensive.

I can hear you talking and I am really listening.

Being who you truly are is not an inconvenience to me.

I would prefer if you kept being honest with me.

I am an ally, a friend, and someone you can trust.

Candice talks about her journey to encourage extended family to also use preferred pronouns—a journey that has been very difficult at times and required Candice to extend skills of grace, listening, and bridge building. Candice talks about how it is a journey worth undertaking. Candice talks about her podcast “No Empty Chairs: For Moms Whose Kids Don’t Come to Church,” becoming a life coach, and her role in and the purpose of the Facebook group “Bridges: Support for Latter-day Saint Parents of Adult Children”.

If you are looking for a real-world story of better supporting the queer people in your life, please listen to Candice’s podcast and connect with her resources.

Thank you, Candice, for being on the podcast. You are awesome. Your work is so needed in our community!

Links:

Candice’s web page: candiceclarkcoaching.com/

Candice’s FB Page: www.facebook.com/candiceclarkcoaching

Candice’s Podcast: candiceclarkcoaching.com/?page_id=78

Bridges FB Group: www.facebook.com/groups/1139458306236720

FB Group for LDS Parents with LGBTQ children: www.facebook.com/groups/WalkWithYouLDSParentsOfLGBTQ

My friends Emilie Call (married mother of 4) and Ashlie Sanders (married mother of 3) join us to talk about their podcast they founded, and co-host called “That’s Church Podcast” which builds bridges of understanding to other faiths (and people of no faith) and to better support people within our own faith (such as LGBTQ folks). They also share their personal stories navigating complicated topics in our faith and how their work has helped them stay in our Church.

Emilie and Ashlie talk about the next event at Compass Gallery in Provo, Utah on March 8th(National Women’s Day)—speakers and purpose-an awesome event that I encourage you to attend. Also, Ashlie talks about the IG account (@the_nuanced_mormon) to explore diverse spiritual journeys.

If you are looking for two thoughtful voices in our faith community doing much needed bridge-building work, please listen to this episode and connect with their podcast and consider attending their event on March 8th

Thank you, Emilie and Ashlie, for being on the podcast. You two give me hope.

Links :

That’s Church Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/thats-church/id1711856369

That’s Church IG account: @thatschurchpodcast

A That’s Church Experience - Divine Feminine & Women Empowerment tickets: tinyurl.com/empower2025

My friend Liberty Hansen (age 20, lives in Spanish Fork Utah, Richmond Virginia RM) joins us to share her story of returning home from her mission after two months because of a desire to improve our culture to help others walking this road.

Liberty talks about how much she loved missionary work—but suffered from panic attacks and feelings of suicide—and feelings of drowning. She talks about difficult experience on her mission where she didn’t feel safe or supported. An exception to that was one of her companions—still a dear friend—and all this companion did to help her.

Liberty talks about coming home and the support she received from her family and ward. She talks about how she handled the airport, her first week back in the Ward, her homecoming talk and the good/not helpful comments. Liberty also talks about why she stays in the church—even though she feels so level of being let down by the Church.

Liberty talks about a new Instagram account she started (see show notes) where other early release missionaries share their stories.

If you are an early release missionary or working to better support someone walking this road, please listed to Liberty’s story and connect with her Instagram.

Thank you, Liberty, for being on the podcast. You are brave. You are awesome.

Links:

Liberty’s Instagram: @finding.the.purpose

My friend Hayden Clark (age 30, married, father of one, lives in Mesa Arizona, former Utah Dixie State University football player, Phoenix firefighter and paramedic, stake high councilor), joins us to share his journey to understand and solve his porn use. Hayden talks about his early exposure to porn (age 7) and how this became a coping mechanism to deal with life. Hayden talks about not opening up to his wife about his porn use before their marriage—but finally having the courage to talk about this once married.

Once Hayden opened up to his wife about his porn use, that opened the door to do the needed work to solve it. Hayden talks about therapists (including Sara Brewer’s program) which helped him understand his porn use was really a coping mechanism (or “buffer”) to deal with/escape the challenges of life. With that reframing, Hayden talks about the things he did to improve himself to be closer to sobriety.

In addition to good therapy, Hayden also talks about the role of The Atonement of Jesus Christ and how reading the Book of Mormon helped him. Hayden also talks about why his wife and him started a podcast, why he is talking about this at church (including his high council talks)—all because of his desire to help others.

If you are working to end porn use (or other unwanted coping behaviors like overeating, drugs/alcohol, caffeine, excessive social media use, etc) please listen to Hayden’s story. It will help you. And if you are looking to help others, Hayden’s story will help you better help others.

Thank you, Hayden, for your courage to be on the podcast and share your story. Respect. You are helping so many!

Links:

Hayden and his wife Dylan‘s podcast called: This Is Livin’ : podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/this-is-livin/id1770163904

Sara Brewer: centerforovercoming.com/

Other Richard Ostler solving porn podcasts: listenlearnandlove.org/solving-porn-use

Richard Ostler chapter on solving porn: www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/nrfb3jzluzrj2sp8ihrfo/Chapter-4-Ending-Pornography-Use.-Listen-Learn-and-Love-Improving-Latter-day-Saint-Culture.pdf?rlkey=dqxcrtvxcmu6u3ppkig3kh82p&dl=0