Listen, Learn & Love Hosted by Richard Ostler

My friend John Bushman (30+ years teaching Institute/Seminary) joins us to talk about his new book “King Before Kingdom: Faithful Revival Within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”.

In this episode and his book, John talks about specific areas we can improve our culture so that more feel welcome and needed. John also talks about moving from a checklist/legalistic approach to living the gospel—to making it all about coming unto Christ. John offers valuable doctrinal insights from the scriptures that support this approach—and what we can do better to support others.

If you are looking for a much-needed book to read and share with others, please listen to this episode and read John’s book.

Thank you, John for writing this book, being on the podcast, and your decades of teaching to help others come unto Christ. Your discipleship is so needed in our community. You give me hope.

Links:

John’s website (with links to the book): www.johnbushman.com or https://www.johnbushman.com/king-before-kingdom.html There you can read a sample chapter or listen on audio. Also links to other podcasts and reels on Social Media. Also reviews on Amazon and the many ways to buy the book.

My friend Jon Larsen (married father of three, lives in Cedar City, 25+ years clinical experience) and Brooklyn Larsen (BYU student, early returned missionary from Argentina, service missionary) join us to talk about their new and needed podcast called “Returned Stronger”.

The podcast (and Jon’s life coaching work) focuses on helping early return missionaries find their way forward on principles based on worth, value, and God’s love for them—and how “God never speaks to someone through shame”.

In this episode Brooklyn bravely shares her journey with her mental health and why her mission needed to end to return home to get the necessary care she needed. Brooklyn talks honestly about this difficult road—and what gave her hope including deciding to serve a service mission and start their podcast. Jon talks about his role as her father to love and support her and his clinical expertise to support early return missionaries and their families.

I encourage everyone to check out this episode and connect with the “Returning Stronger” podcast (see show notes). This will help you better love and support the missionaries in your life. And if you are planning on serving a mission, their podcast will help you better prepare for your mission.

Links:

Facebook, TikTok and Instagram: @ReturningStronger

Podcast: https://youtube.com/@returningstronger

Website: https://returningstronger.com

My friend Kari Bates (mother of six, lives in Elko NV, life coach) and Kimberly Bates (HR professional living in NYC) joins us to talk about their new podcast called “Coffee and Cocoa”.

Their podcast focused on how Kari and Kimberly reframed/rebuilt their relationship on five core principles after Kimbery left the Church. They talk about the early years, the mistakes they made, and how they learned and implemented new tools/perspectives to preserve their relationship. And how their relationship is now beyond preserving the relationship but thriving. It is a beautiful family love story. And a story that they felt impressed to share with others through their new awesome podcast.

If you are looking for a real-life story and actionable principles of preserving/growing a family relationship where there are differences in religious and/or political beliefs, I encourage you to listen/connect with their podcast.

Thank you, Kari and Kimberly, for being on the podcast and your much-needed work in our community to build bridges. You two are awesome!

Links:

Kari’s Instagram: @karibatesfamilycoach

Coffee and Cocoa Podcast: https://www.karibates.com/coffee-cocoa-podcast

My friend Jerry Chong (active LDS, Temple worker, many leadership callings, lives in Calgary Canada, convert, powerful advocate for LGBTQ inclusion) joins us to share his story (was on Episode 41, 8 years ago):

Advocacy work with Stake and Ward Leaders across the world (Canada, USA, UK, Brazil, etc)

How to approach stake presidents and ward leaders to engage them in LGBTQ Inclusion and Sensitivity training for leaders and members . The email communications and patience that is required for these meetings to come together .

What he teaches at these meetings

Being a temple worker and explaining his singleness to fellow workers and temple presidencies

Creating boundaries with homophobic church members

Personal sacrifice and loneliness of being celibate—with no hope of companionship if he wants to remain a member is good standing

Series of essays he’s written. E-mail Jerry if you want a copy (see show notes)

Being an ally for transgender/non-binary Latter-day Saints . Arranging video conversations to learn about their lived experiences and the impact of church policies

Hopes to start dating men. Going slow. Would like to be married and share the last chapters of his life with someone

Thank you, Jerry, for being on the podcast. You are one of my heroes—sacrificing so much to be in a position where you can help advocate for better LGBTQ understanding and inclusion. You have blessed so many through your ministry. You are a true disciple of Christ. Honored to have you on the podcast.

Please listen and share Jerry’s episode. It will help you be a better ally and will help you if for you are queer Latter-day Saint.

Links:

Jerry’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jerry.chong.52

Jerry’s IG: @mrjerrychong

Jerry’s e-mail: [email protected]

Episode 41: https://soundcloud.com/user-818501778/episode-41-jerry-chong-gay-mormon-convert-calgary-temple-worker

Ministering Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1433556613672143

Richard Ostler Substack on The Family Proclamation: https://substack.com/home/post/p-209436738

My friend Michael Young (active LDS, lives in Florida, Senior Service Missionary) joins us to share his outstanding story navigate being gay for 7+ decades:

Part of the gay New York underworld in the 60s—including visiting Stonewall—but deeply closeted

Career in health care

Helpful therapist to get him through anger and distrust and overcome childhood trauma

Believed in God—and upset with God

Powerful spiritual experience in small Catholic chapel—sins forgiven and a great weight lifted

Getting married to a woman—told her about being gay—good married for 39 years—but ended

Along with his wife, joined the Church in 1983 (living in Ohio) after investigating Church for 18 months

Navigating President Kimball’s teachings about homosexuality (stuff we don’t teach anymore)

Extensive church service (Bishoprics, Temple, etc)

Moving to Florida after his divorce

Coming out to his Ward (positive experience)

Great ward/stake support for LGBTQ members

Wearing a pride pin to Church because “shows God loves all his creations”

Powerful person revelation that God made him Gay and God loves him—he is not broken and doesn’t need fixing

Why he stays in the Church

No one should feel shame for who they are

At age 82, Michael is our oldest queer podcast guest. He takes us back to an era where being gay was much more difficult (gay bashing, fear of losing job). Yet, his story is so similar to other queer Latter-day Saints in the personal revelation they are receiving and the complexity of their journey. Michael is bright, articulate, super insightful, and has a powerful story.

If you are queer or an ally, please listen and share Michael’s powerful podcast—it will help all of us. You are a good man Michael—one of my new heroes. Thank you for being on the podcast. Thanks for all you have done to bless so many during your life.

Links:

Michael on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/michael.young.304565

My friend Tucker Boyle (married father of five, PhD in Leadership Studies, went through a faith crisis/transition) joins us to share his story including:

- How his doctoral research into church history led to a faith crisis

- The pain of that road (emotional, physical, not belonging)

- How the whole process changed him to be more kind, compassionate and supportive of others

- Discussion of going from “melody” to “dissonance” to “harmony”

- Why he won’t go back—so grateful for his faith transition—so much more equipped to help others

- Why he started “Harmony Road Retreats”—a safe place for people in a faith crisis/faith transition/faith journey

- Being a safe person as a YSA Bishop, Institute/Seminary teacher and doing much work to help others walking a difficult road

- Helping people understand how they can calm their nervous system during times of transition

If you are in a faith crisis/transition or want to have more insights to help others, please listen to/share Tucker’s podcast.

Links:

Instagram: @harmony_road_retreats

Harmony Road Retreats website: https://www.harmonyroadretreats.com/

Email: [email protected]

My friend Carlos Toledo (age 28, communications strategist, accomplished businessman, community advocate, son of prominent Brazilian church leaders) joins us to share his remarkable story:

Navigating being attracted to men—outed at age 14/15—unique story

How therapy (not conversation therapy) helped him

Decision to serve a mission—totally out to priesthood leaders

Importance of being impowered—step into it—owning your story

Moving to Utah and being a LGBTQ community leader

Burnout a few years ago—needing to rebuild—super powerful

Difference between being queer in Brazil and USA

Getting through anger

You are a good man, Carlos. Honored to have you on the podcast. You have a great life ahead of you!

Links:

Carlos on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/carlos.toledo.19.98

Carlos on Instagram: @thecarlostoledo

My friend Dr. Seth Bott (PhD in Music Arts and Organ Performance, Director of Music, late 30s, Choir Master and Organist at St. James Episcopal Church, organ instructor, frequent performer in LDS spaces like education week) joins us to share his powerful story:

Growing up in Castle Dale, Utah—dream of being a Tabernacle Organist

Knowing he was gay—never going to tell anyone—believe just being gay was a sin until an Elder Holland talk

Great mission, great experience at BYU (undergraduate and graduate degrees). Dream of being a Tabernacle Organist on track

Friends getting married, not able to make it with a girl, desired companionship, finally started to come out

Positive coming out experiences with family—including very tender experience with his Dad

Dating men, being in an 11-year relationship which ended, his current partner Michael (super good relationship)

Finding new dreams—not going to be a Tabernacle Organist

Respect for LDS Church and respect for all paths that LGB Latter-day Saints walk

Going back to his childhood ward in Castle Dale with his boyfriend for his parents’ homecoming and performing a musical number during the service. Love and acceptance for both of them—a little slice of Zion.

Thank you, Seth, for being on the podcast. Respect for all your accomplished in your life with music, teaching and leading with love—like Jesus does. You are a good man and are doing so much to make this world a better place.

Links:

Seth’s Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/seth.bott.5

Seth’s IG: @sethgbott

Church News Article about Seth: https://www.thechurchnews.com/living-faith/2024/09/18/organ-virtuoso-series-concert-2024-salt-lake-tabernacle-organ-seth-bott/

Seth's YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@sethbottmusic780

My friends Jeremy Kerrigan (gay, on episode 761, chiropractor) and Sara Kerrigan (straight, teacher, mother of 5) joins us to share their story:

Why their marriage ended—the right outcome for both of them

Why they remain best friends—and why their communication, honesty and vulnerability is even better now

How we can better support couples that divorce including more listening, curiosity, and less advice

How we can do a better job of not choosing sides in some divorce situations

How their values remain the same—even though their beliefs have changed—super powerful perspective

Supporting their kids (oldest is on a mission)

This is not an episode advocating for divorce. However, this is a reality for some couples. Jeremy and Sara bravely share their story helping us to see what kind of a relationship is possible after divorce in some situations. Their journey is a beautiful love story.

Thank you, Jeremy, and Sara, for being on the podcast. Your story is so needed in our community. You two are remarkable people.

Links:

Jeremy on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drkerrigan

Sara on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ctrsara

Jeremy on IG: @jeremykerriganaz

Sara on IG: ctrsara

My friend Chris Bissett (lives in Raymond, Alberta Canada, married father of 5, serving in Bishopric) joins us to share his story including:

Realizing he is gay before his mission—learning how to balance his faith and his sexuality alone and dealing with the shame. Navigating things in the church that were helpful and some other things that were hurtful

“Rage praying” and getting an answer “God was OK with me being gay”

Coming out to his wife Becky in the first year of their marriage—wanted to be honest and have a relationship on trust

While his wife is very supportive, he recognized he didn’t give her a choice, learning that a marriage of love needs to be built on truth (authenticity) and choice.

Helpful meeting and getting great advice with Elder Holland early in their marriage

Eventually couldn’t keep being gay on the “back burner”—needed to come out more openly

Taking away the shame—living with confidence

How he moved from seeing being gay as a “sacrifice” to moving toward “consecration” and using being himself as a gay member to build Zion

His powerful Wayfare Article called “Light in a Watery Darkness, Finding a Way with Consecrated Identity” (see show notes).

Chris shares a super insightful story with unique insights and perspectives—all coming from a place of no-shame, integrity, and confidence. I learned so much from Chris. If you are an LGBTQ Latter-day Saint, Chris’s story will help you. And Chris’s story will help you if you are looking to better understand and support our LGBTQ friends.

You are a good man, Chris. Honored to have you on the podcast!

Links:

Wayfare article: https://www.wayfaremagazine.org/p/wilt-thou-suffer-that-we-shall-cross

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chrisbissett