MOPs & MOEs is proudly sponsored by Teamworks — the performance operations platform trusted by elite military units and professional sports organizations worldwide. Teamworks brings your scheduling, communications, athlete monitoring, and readiness data into one unified system — so your leaders stay informed, your people stay connected, and your unit stays ready. No more scattered spreadsheets or missed messages. Just one platform built for organizations where performance is the mission. Learn more at teamworkstactical.com

We are also supported by TrainHeroic — the coaching and programming platform built for strength and conditioning coaches who train serious athletes. Whether you're programming for a military unit, a tactical team, or individual athletes, TrainHeroic gives you the tools to build and deliver professional training programs, track athlete progress, and communicate directly with your people — all through one app. Your athletes get world-class programming on their phone; you get the visibility to actually coach them. Start your free trial at trainheroic.com

This week Drew and Alex sit down with Libby Alders — chaplain, researcher, library technician, and self-described tri-vocational nerd — to actually figure out what it is, why it matters, and why the military keeps trying to slap a number on something that might not need one.

This one goes deep. Grab a coffee.

What we get into:

What spiritual fitness actually means — Libby breaks it down to four things: knowing what you believe, understanding that beliefs should evolve, being able to coexist with people who believe differently, and being able to recognize harmful or radicalizing ideologies when they show up.

The Spiritual Fitness Survey — an 18-question tool with three subscales: horizontal (community and belonging), mixed (purpose and meaning), and vertical (relationship to the transcendent or divine).

Moral injury versus PTSD, and why the difference matters for who you call. Libby's shorthand: shame points toward moral injury and the chaplain. Guilt and fear point toward PTSD and psych.

Why the research on religion reducing PTSD risk might be missing a confounding variable — moral injury. If the thing that gives your life meaning is also the thing that got violated, you don't have a protective factor. You have an opening.

The 724th Special Tactics case study — how Libby and former podcast guest Chris ran focus groups instead of surveys, built a communication tool instead of a formal metric, and ended up with leadership asking to do their own version because the unit couldn't stop talking about it.

Capability-based blueprinting — what it is, why more of the military should use it.

The interdisciplinary team problem — why nobody knows when to call the chaplain, why over-specialization and over-generalization are both failure modes, and what "informed consumer" training actually looks like in practice.

The table theology tangent — why the ritual of eating together is a human performance intervention that no macro calculator captures.

Mentioned in this episode:

Dr. Harold Koenig, Duke University — geriatric psychiatrist and pioneer in spirituality, religion, and health research

Dr. Warren Kinghorn, Duke — another key name at the intersection of mental health and spiritual health

Capability-Based Blueprinting — developed within CHAMP, Dr. Chamberlain's work

Matt Larson — former podcast guest, moral injury talk from the H2F Symposium coming soon to the MOPs & MOEs Instagram

Charles Vogel, The Art of Community — former podcast guest, Yale Divinity School; the ritual of meals chapter alone is worth the read

Allen Frances, Saving Normal — Drew and Alex's white whale guest. Chaired the DSM-IV committee. By DSM-V, had renounced the whole enterprise. If you know him, please help.

Rants and Rituals — Libby's upcoming podcast. No one take that name.

Views expressed are those of the speakers and do not represent any official organization.

MOPs & MOEs is proudly sponsored by Teamworks — the performance operations platform trusted by elite military units and professional sports organizations worldwide. Teamworks brings your scheduling, communications, athlete monitoring, and readiness data into one unified system — so your leaders stay informed, your people stay connected, and your unit stays ready. No more scattered spreadsheets or missed messages. Just one platform built for organizations where performance is the mission. Learn more at teamworkstactical.com

We are also supported by TrainHeroic — the coaching and programming platform built for strength and conditioning coaches who train serious athletes. Whether you're programming for a military unit, a tactical team, or individual athletes, TrainHeroic gives you the tools to build and deliver professional training programs, track athlete progress, and communicate directly with your people — all through one app. Your athletes get world-class programming on their phone; you get the visibility to actually coach them. Start your free trial at trainheroic.com

Fit at 50 and Back in the Teams — Jamie Monroe Returns

Jamie Monroe commissioned as a Navy SEAL ensign at 50 years old. That sentence alone is worth an episode. But what Drew and Alex actually get into is bigger than the headline — it's about the lies we tell ourselves about aging, what it really takes to stay ready across decades, and why identity might be the most underrated performance variable in the building.

Drew and Alex also open with results from a poll that surprised everyone — including them.

What we get into:

How a poll asking which soldier is more operationally effective — perfect fitness score with bad sleep and stress, or minimum passing score with great relationships and recovery — came back 90% in favor of option two. And what that says about what the military actually measures versus what it probably should.

Jamie's road back in — the heart murmur that got him medically declined years ago, the DCO process, three interviews, a full MEPS physical, the SEAL Physical Screening Test, and finally commissioning in front of 70 friends and family at 50 years old.

Why identity is the most underrated longevity tool — Jamie has never called himself old and broken, and he credits that framing as much as any training protocol for why he's still in the game.

The simple running framework that actually works — two easy runs, one tempo, one long run, 15 to 20 miles a week. No pose method required. Just run.

What fitness culture looks like inside the SEAL teams now versus two decades ago — less about getting jacked, more about the HYROX athlete profile. Strong runners who can also move weight. And pull-ups that actually count.

A full breakdown of every major service fitness test — what Jamie likes, what he'd cut, and why the Marine Corps three-mile run might be the most honest single measure of fitness across any branch.

The FAT — Drew and Alex's Fitness Aptitude Test — one rep max deadlift, AMRAP pull-ups, five-mile run. Jamie grades it live, makes some edits, and floats a Cooper Test–style 20-minute max distance format that might actually be the move.

Old generation versus new generation — who's actually fitter? Jamie gives a straight answer.

Mentioned in this episode:

ReadyFit — Jamie's AI-powered military fitness testing app using computer vision to automatically score reps, currently in testing with units at Holloman AFB

Easy Day Sports — Jamie's event production company, including a recent 5K for the Dallas Cowboys over Draft Weekend

The Red Bull Catcher Race — the only race where the finish line chases you

DSI Human Performance & Biosystems Summit — DC, coming up soon. Alex will be there Thursday.

Long and Strong — the Mops and Moes training program on TrainHeroic →

Want to help get Bryson DeChambeau on the show? Jamie's working on it.

Views expressed are those of the speakers and do not represent any official organization.

MOPs & MOEs is proudly sponsored by Teamworks — the performance operations platform trusted by elite military units and professional sports organizations worldwide. Teamworks brings your scheduling, communications, athlete monitoring, and readiness data into one unified system — so your leaders stay informed, your people stay connected, and your unit stays ready. No more scattered spreadsheets or missed messages. Just one platform built for organizations where performance is the mission. Learn more at ⁠⁠https://teamworks.com/⁠⁠

We are also supported by TrainHeroic — the coaching and programming platform built for strength and conditioning coaches who train serious athletes. Whether you're programming for a military unit, a tactical team, or individual athletes, TrainHeroic gives you the tools to build and deliver professional training programs, track athlete progress, and communicate directly with your people — all through one app. Your athletes get world-class programming on their phone; you get the visibility to actually coach them. Start your free trial at ⁠⁠https://account.trainheroic.com/create-account⁠

The Father Figure vs. The Dad Bod — How Parenthood Changes Your Relationship With Fitness

For the first time ever, it's just Drew and John. No Alex, no guests — just two dads talking honestly about what happens to training when kids show up and life gets real.

This isn't a "here's how to stay jacked after having kids" episode. It's more honest than that. It's about shifting your entire reason for training, giving yourself permission to let go of who you were in the gym before kids, and why the example you set matters more than any number on the bar.

Drew is a single dad to a five-year-old girl. John has a three-year-old daughter and an eight-month-old son. Both of them have figured some of this out the hard way.

What we get into:

How both of their relationships with fitness completely changed after having kids — and why that's actually a good thing.

Why Drew stopped caring about PRs and started doing yoga in the garage with his daughter.

John's 12-and-a-half-year streak of daily pushups, the Hugh Jackman Wolverine program, and what 11 days of keto on coconut oil actually feels like.

The girl dad angle — setting the standard for the type of person your daughter grows up to value, and why that starts now.

Why being "there" after a brutal training session isn't the same as being present.

Facing your own mortality when you become a parent — and why that's less dark than it sounds.

The stroller as a training tool, hiking in dresses, and using your kid as a weight because she thinks it's hilarious.

The Open by Andre Agassi, early sports specialization, and why making fitness fun early beats everything else.

Mentioned in this episode:

Mass Hysteria by Michael Blevins — All In Performance, required reading for girl dads

The Open by Andre Agassi — John's current read, highly recommended

Long and Strong — the Mops and Moes training program on Train Heroic

Phil Collins, Tarzan, Brother Bear, Robin Hood, The Wild Robot — Drew has opinions

Want a program that fits real life — not a perfect schedule that doesn't exist?

The Mops and Moes bundle on Train Heroic is built for people with actual constraints. Flexible, auto-regulated, and designed to keep you moving no matter what the week throws at you. 

→ Get access here!

Views expressed are those of the speakers and do not represent any official organization.

MOPs & MOEs is proudly sponsored by Teamworks — the performance operations platform trusted by elite military units and professional sports organizations worldwide. Teamworks brings your scheduling, communications, athlete monitoring, and readiness data into one unified system — so your leaders stay informed, your people stay connected, and your unit stays ready. No more scattered spreadsheets or missed messages. Just one platform built for organizations where performance is the mission. Learn more at ⁠https://teamworks.com/⁠

We are also supported by TrainHeroic — the coaching and programming platform built for strength and conditioning coaches who train serious athletes. Whether you're programming for a military unit, a tactical team, or individual athletes, TrainHeroic gives you the tools to build and deliver professional training programs, track athlete progress, and communicate directly with your people — all through one app. Your athletes get world-class programming on their phone; you get the visibility to actually coach them. Start your free trial at ⁠https://account.trainheroic.com/create-account⁠

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Cognitive Performance vs. Mental Skills Training — Are We Getting It Wrong?

This week Alex and Drew sit down with Kat, a cognitive performance specialist, to ask a question that sounds simple but isn't: are we actually training cognition — or just calling things cognitive training?

The answer, it turns out, is mostly the latter. We're buying expensive tech, running chess drills, and staring at doorknobs. And almost none of it transfers to performance when it actually counts.

This one gets into near vs. far transfer, why brain training apps don't work the way we think they do, what orbital warfare has to do with any of this, and why expertise might be the best fatigue management tool we have.

If you work in human performance, coach athletes, or just want to understand why the thing you're doing might not be doing what you think it's doing — this episode is for you.

Mentioned in this episode:

Chase & Simon (1973) — the foundational chess study on expert vs. novice memory

NASA Task Load Index (TLX) — search it, bookmark it, the website is genuinely excellent

The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Mueller — referenced again, still relevant, still not on the podcast

Think and Fight Drills / Maneuver Chess — US Naval Institute Press, Marine Corps Times, War on the Rocks

Cognitive Performance Training Level One — listed as a resource on the H2F mental domain page, worth reading critically

NeuroTracker — they're welcome to come on and make their case

Ready to train with a program that actually makes sense?

The Mops and Moes bundle on Train Heroic — built around real principles, not gimmicks. Get access here!

Views expressed are those of the speakers and do not represent any official organization.

MOPs & MOEs is proudly sponsored by Teamworks — the performance operations platform trusted by elite military units and professional sports organizations worldwide. Teamworks brings your scheduling, communications, athlete monitoring, and readiness data into one unified system — so your leaders stay informed, your people stay connected, and your unit stays ready. No more scattered spreadsheets or missed messages. Just one platform built for organizations where performance is the mission. Learn more at https://teamworks.com/

We are also supported by TrainHeroic — the coaching and programming platform built for strength and conditioning coaches who train serious athletes. Whether you're programming for a military unit, a tactical team, or individual athletes, TrainHeroic gives you the tools to build and deliver professional training programs, track athlete progress, and communicate directly with your people — all through one app. Your athletes get world-class programming on their phone; you get the visibility to actually coach them. Start your free trial at https://account.trainheroic.com/create-account

MOPs & MOEs delivers our training through ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠TrainHeroic and you can ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠get your first 7 days of training with us FREE by clicking here.⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠

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The New Army Combat Field Test — What It Is, What It Isn't, and What We Actually Think About It

This week Drew and Alex break down the new Combat Field Test — the Army's second mandatory fitness assessment for combat arms soldiers that nobody asked for and everybody has opinions about.

Spoiler: the bar might be set so low that it barely changes anything. But the conversation around why that keeps happening is worth having.

What we get into:

What the CFT actually is — seven events, one running clock, pass or fail. And why if you can run a 10-minute mile you're probably fine.

Why the EIB standard is the same test, with body armor and a helmet, three minutes faster — and what that says about how easy the CFT bar actually is.

The Pygmalion effect — every time the Army lowered the standard, it told the force exactly what it thought they were capable of.

Why one soldier who enlisted in 2019 and served until 2023 only took one PT test in four years of infantry service. Because we kept changing things.

The medic problem — combat is literally in their MOS name, and they're not on the list.

Why 13 Bravo cannon crew members aren't considered combat arms but Army divers are, and what that says about how this list gets built.

The case for publishing MOS-level fitness score averages so soldiers can see where they actually stand relative to their peers.

Whether having the Pentagon direct fitness culture is a good thing — and why for some services it might be the only thing that's actually moved the needle.

Mentioned in this episode:

Secretary Hegseth's September 2025 memo — Military Fitness Standards for the Department of War

ACRT — the earlier Army competitor to the ACFT that never made it

DA Pam 611-21 — Military Occupational Classification and Structure, Alex knew the number off the top of his head

AFT Insight — aftinsight.com, free AFT score interpreter and training programs

BUSAR — their proposed fitness test that requires a picnic table and holds up surprisingly well

Tyler Vargas Andrews — Whistling Death on Instagram, lost an arm and a leg at Abbey Gate and still goes harder than most people with all four limbs

Melissa Stockwell — Paralympic triathlete, showed up to a climbing gym without a prosthetic and just climbed anyway

The Tyranny of Metrics by Jerry Mueller — referenced again, Jerry please come on the podcast

MOPs & MOEs is powered by TrainHeroic, the best coaching app on the planet. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to get 14 days FREE and a consult with the coaches at TrainHeroic to help you get your coaching business rolling on TrainHeroic. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

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Drew was recently to challenged to share how the process of creating this podcast has changed his coaching. We've learned a lot along the way, some which has reinforced what we already believed, but we've also changed our minds on plenty of things.

On this week's episode we dive into what we've learned from all our guests and conversations. Just like our classic closing question, we frame it in terms of what we've changed our mind on and what we've doubled down on. Whether it's our own training, our approach to coaching others, or even how we view "experts," we take a look at how putting these conversations together have helped us understand this space a little better.

Thanks to everyone who has joined us on this journey, especially those of you who have shared your thoughts, insights, recommendations, and more!

MOPs & MOEs is powered by TrainHeroic, the best coaching app on the planet. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Click here to get 14 days FREE and a consult with the coaches at TrainHeroic to help you get your coaching business rolling on TrainHeroic. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ 

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On this episode we're diving into the Russia-Ukraine conflict. Inevitably that conversation involves a little bit of drone technology talk, but we focus mostly on the human demands of this kind of warfare. When every single piece of equipment, food, etc. has to travel the last several miles on foot, what does that require of the individual soldier? When there is near constant visual and thermal surveillance, how do operations have to adapt? We break down all that and more, with some time saved at the end to talk about the ACFT implementation, since our guest played a key role in that as well.

Major General Kline graduated from Shippensburg University, Pennsylvania in 1992 and was commissioned as a Field Artillery officer where he served three years as a Fire Support Officer and later a MLRS platoon leader before transferring to the Aviation branch until his promotion to Major General.

Major General Kline commanded tactical aviation units at the company, battalion, and brigade levels. His aviation command assignments include A Company, 5th Battalion, 158th Aviation Regiment in Germany; 5th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment (Task Force Eagle Assault) in Fort Campbell, Kentucky and the 3rd Combat Aviation Brigade located at Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah, Georgia. 

In combat, Major General Kline served as the Executive Officer for 5th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment in Tikrit, Iraq from 2005-2006; Deputy Brigade Commander for 101st Combat Aviation Brigade in Bagram, Afghanistan in 2008; Battalion Commander of 5th Battalion, 101st Aviation Regiment at FOB Wolverine near Qalat, Afghanistan from 2010-2011; and Commander of Task Force Forge in Helmand, Afghanistan from 2015-2016. 

Uniquely, he also represented the United States in direct communication with the Taliban Political Commission (TPC) in Doha, Qatar in 2021. 

Specific to this podcast, he was Alex's commander at CIMT as his final command, overseeing the implementation of the ACFT and H2F. After leaving command but before retiring, he was the Army lead for the Ukraine/Russia Lessons study focused on capturing the lessons from that conflict, which is what we'll be focusing most of today's conversation on.

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This week's episode is a little in house debate. We got the MOPs & MOEs team together to hash out a sticky topic: Is walking exercise?

We certainly get into more nuance on than that. Is walking EFFICIENT exercise? WHO is walking appropriate exercise for? What does research say about various walking PROTOCOLS? There are layers to this conversation, and we peel several of those layers back.

If you want to dive into some of the research we mention that assessed Interval Walk Training, here are a few of the papers you can look up:

Nemoto et al, 2007

Nose et al, 2009

Morikawa et al, 2011

Karstoft et al, 2013

Jakobsen et al, 2016

Kitajima et al, 2023

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In this week's episode we deep dive the fitness test used by Backcountry Search and Rescue (BUSAR). They are a non-profit 501(c)(3) organization comprised of members with extensive backcountry and outdoor experience, as well as specialized professional expertise from the NPS, Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force. Members also have experience in aviation, tracking, survival, firefighting, law enforcement, and medical professions.

Their unique fitness test consists of the following:

• Burpee pack pullups - as many reps as you can do in 10 minutes with your SAR pack (~ 20 lbs.) - minimum 50

• 225 pound trap bar deadlift - as many reps as you can do with good form in 1 minute - minimum 15

• 3 mile pack test with 45 pounds in under 45 minutes (USFS pack test), followed by additional 30 minutes up and over a picnic table with your SAR Pack (~ 20 lbs.) and a 45# kettlebell or dumbbell

  
  

Andrew Herrington grew up a free range kid, shaped by Boy Scouts, wilderness, and hard less. A near-fatal rescue at 17 locked his purpose in for good. With nearly two decades in Smokies Search & Resuce, he became a master of survival. His specialties include land navigation, tracking, swiftwater, hunting, trapping, and wildland fire operations. A former backcountry ranger, hog hunter, and wildland firefighter, he blends instinct with experience. As founder and leader of the team, he trains others to think, adapt, and move. Known as an empathetic problem solver, he builds teams under pressure. He doesn't just solve rescues, he forges heroes.

Greg Grieco learned early that standing still gets people hurt. As a former wildlife ranger in the Smokies, he tracked and trapped conflict bears relying on his photographic memory and encyclopedic mind to outsmart the beasts before they could cause more problems. A university of Tennessee football alum, Greg brings power, speed, and fearless momentum to every mission. He specializes in land navigation, rapid decision making, and reading terrain like an open book. When hesitation creeps in, he pushes that team forward.

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On this episode we're sitting down with three leaders from the Arctic Wolves: 1st Brigade, 11th Airborne Division. They have allowed units across their brigade to conduct "offset PT" which - importantly - is not just "reverse cycle PT" but rather a flexible approach to when physical training is conducted. Their initial pilot showed huge improvements not just in fitness, but across sleep, nutrition, and even social connections.

COL Christopher Brawley, the Brigade Commander, had already implemented this model successfully at 1st Ranger Battalion, so he knew the potential it presented to building trust and organizational performance.

CSM Jeremiah Waggoner, a multiple time Best Ranger competitor, was focused on the physical fitness expectations for the formation, as well as keeping NCOs in charge of leading training of all types.

Dr. Ellie Van Luit, the brigade's H2F Program Director, saw H2F's role as enabling and supporting this effort, but she emphasized that it was a brigade initiative, not an H2F initiative.

You can find the full results of the initial pilot on our free downloads page.