Today, Dr. Stephanie Holmes talks with Occupational Therapist, Kelly Mahler. The topic is interoception! Every neurotype can struggle with it, but we find neurodivergent folks can have a few more challenges with interoception.

Defined by Kelly's website: Many people notice these feelings in their body with the help of an important sense… a sense called… interoception.
Don’t let the name fool you. The word interoception might not sound very sexy or important. But this sense is a really big deal. Interoception has a huge influence on many areas of our lives, like self-regulation, mental health, and social connection.
 About our Guest:
Kelly Mahler, OTD, OTR/L, earned a Doctorate in Occupational Therapy from Misericordia University, Dallas, PA. She has been an occupational therapist for 20 years, serving school-aged children and adults. Kelly is the winner of multiple awards, including the 2020 American Occupational Therapy Association Emerging and Innovative Practice Award & a Mom’s Choice Gold Medal. She is an adjunct faculty member at Elizabethtown College, Elizabethtown, PA as well as at Misericordia University, Dallas, PA. Kelly is a co-principal investigator in several research projects pertaining to topics such as interoception, self-regulation, trauma & autism.

In this holiday-themed episode of Just the Guys, the conversation centers on thankfulness—not as a sentimental add-on to Thanksgiving, but as a practical tool for navigating the chaos of family gatherings. Drawing from Dr. Jim Wilder’s teaching on appreciation as the spark that “turns on our relational circuits,” the guys explore how gratitude transforms not just moods but entire relationships.
 Greg admits that even when overstimulated, “I still made the turkey; it’s my job”—a wry reminder that responsibility and love can coexist with limits and self-awareness. Jeremy reflects on the sobering truth that “what you complain about today might be someone else’s answered prayer,” while Kevin shares how recovery and thankfulness helped him replace counterfeit joys with authentic connection. Dan rounds out the discussion with insights on starting the day with intentional gratitude as a way to short-circuit negativity before it starts.
 From Western novels as an escape hatch to unexpected hugs from kids, from box breathing to pecan pie, the guys trade stories of how thankfulness shows up in real life—sometimes messy, sometimes humorous, but always transformative. With family gatherings looming, they offer encouragement to embrace both the people you love and the people who stretch your patience, not as problems to solve but as relationships to nurture.
 The takeaway? Joy rarely arrives by accident—it’s cultivated, like Greg’s turkey, with intentional care.

Today, Dr. Stephanie and Barb talk with Dr. Jill Corvelli about the ND Compass charting stages of relationship progression for ND couples.
Stages of Relationship Progression:

• Romance

• Power Struggle

• Stability

• Commitment

• Co-Creation

  About Our Guest:
Jill Corvelli, PhD, LPC, is the creator of ND Compass, a structured methodology designed to
support neurodiverse couples in relational healing. With over a decade of experience working
with hundreds of couples in thousands of sessions, she has developed a systematic approach that integrates Liberating Structures, Differentiation, and Somatic Self-Energy Activation into a phased, neuroaffirming therapeutic framework.

Originally developed to stabilize couples during the Power Struggle stage of relational
development, ND Compass has expanded to support couples across all five stages of relational growth.

Dr. Corvelli is a University Supervisor at Northwestern University’s Family Institute, where she
trains and mentors graduate-level clinicians. She is experienced in Internal Family Systems
(IFS), EMDR, and Ketamine-Assisted Psychotherapy (KAP), and has extensive experience
integrating neuroscience, somatic work, and relational models into therapy.
As a national trainer and consultant, she teaches therapists how to bridge the gap between relational stabilization and deeper inner differentiation work, ensuring that neurodiverse couples experience developmental growth in a way that is accessible, paced for their nervous systems, and structured to honor their unique lived experiences.

Couples Institute:
https://www.couplesinstitute.com/therapists-toolkit-for-neurodiverse-couples/?srsltid=AfmBOorpmFwzP_PTwfWel2FDkhyt83uX3mD94qGEseYBQxdEliisZmYi
 ND Compass:
https://www.ndpartnersinstitute.com/about

We are welcoming back Dr. Lehman with so much positive feedback about his first time on the show. Last show with Dr. Karl, we specifically spoke about the trauma from the perspective of the non-autistic woman married to an autistic man. Today, we shift the focus to potential traumas the autistic man may have, where simple feedback and simple emotions can trigger trauma in the autistic spouse, with a brief discussion on brain anatomy and how trauma develops and the differences in processing in the autistic brain. While we did not get enough time to go through all the steps of healing, we introduce that laying new circuits are possible and healing old trauma and wounds is possible!
 About Our Guest:
Dr. Karl Lehman is a board-certified psychiatrist with 35+ years of experience and more than 40,000 hours of clinical experience. He has worked tenaciously throughout his career to integrate his personal Christian faith with medical science, modern mental health care, and his rigorous scientific training. He has researched and worked to integrate faith-based emotional healing with insights from psychological and neurological research. Dr. Lehman is also deeply committed to his own growth and healing.
Dr. Lehman has been married to Charlotte for over 30 years, and they work as a team to apply everything they learn about growth and healing in the context of their marriage.
Author of Outsmarting Yourself and The Immanuel Approach.
 Podcast links from podcasts we mentioned about autistic brain neurology:
Pt 1 with Dr. Lehman
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/unresolved-trauma-s-impact-on-marriage-with-dr-karl-lehman--66548811
 Enemy Mode with Dr. Wilder
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/escaping-enemy-mode-with-dr-jim-wilder--52449734

Our guest was identified on the autism spectrum with the label he prefers, Asperger's Syndrome, and began his identification journey of what it means to be on the spectrum. As we conclude this month's focus on attachment, Michael shares from his book, Sacred Attachment, that discovering God's love, affection, and delight in us was life-changing. Michael shares many insights, but leans in on his definition of humility and how it is key to attachment to oneself and others.
 About our Guest:
Michael John Cusick
Michael John Cusick is the CEO and founder of Restoring the Soul, an intensive counseling ministry in Denver. He is a licensed professional counselor, spiritual director, and former assistant professor of counseling at Colorado Christian University. Michael is the author of Surfing for God, and his articles have appeared in prominent publications such as Relevant, The Huffington Post, and Red Letter Christians. He and his wife, Julianne, have two grown children and live in Littleton, Colorado. You can find out more about Michael and his resources at: https://restoringthesoul.com/

Continuing this month's topic on attachment and attunement, we have with us today the Life Model Works Executive Director, Marlene Allen. So many of our clients and listeners ask how I can have joy in pain or return to joy when things seem hopeless. Isn't that like just being happy and faking it until you make it?
No!
Today, we talk about adversity, pain, and lament, and how they differ from complaining and venting, which are stuck in disgust or contempt. Lament is a release and offering, and complaining amplifies your pain and can blind you.
So join our discussion today to learn more about:

• Self-attunment

• Attunement to God and developing iSight, is Immanuel always with me?

• How does pain impact me?

• Lamenting vs Complaining

 About our Guest:
Marlene Allen currently serves as the Executive Director of Life Model Works. She is an author, teacher, mentor, networker, licensed minister, and joy-starter. She graduated from McNeese State University in her home state of Louisiana. Her passion for teaching spiritual principles to young people led to a forty-plus-year journey of serving in schools and churches. During her 16-year service as a missionary in Southeast Asia, Marlene was introduced to Life Model Works and finally found the language to articulate the value of joy that she carried within her.
 Before becoming executive director, Marlene was a relational practitioner and served on the Life Model Works Board of Directors. She firmly believes that Life Model Works’ relational tools will help us better represent the Lord on the Earth.
 Residing in Aurora, Colorado, Marlene is a mom to four amazing adults, Rachell, Victoria, Kia, and Moses, and is called ‘Momma Marlene’ by a host of others. She is the creator of Doodles at Relational Wholeness Doodles and the author of the children’s book Candlestick City, available on Amazon.

Life Model: https://lifemodelworks.org/neurotheology/
 Many of Dan & Stephanie's courses use Life Model Books or ministry partners such as Deeper Walk or Thrive Works.
Chapter 5 of Uiquely Us relies on some of these principles!

This month, we are focusing on Attachment! Dan invited a previous guest and attachment expert, Dr. W. Jesse Gill, to join the guys to talk about attachments. What do powder milk biscuits have to do with attachment? Just the Guys cast Greg, Jeremy, and Clay discuss with Dan and Dr. Gill thoughts and questions about attachment.
 Dr. Gill's site: https://www.facetofaceliving.com/our-story

7 Keys to Intimacy: https://www.facetofaceliving.com/shop

And Dr. Gill has a new book on our leadership!

Attachment to God!
What a huge topic to cover! Today, Dr. Stephanie and Barbara talk with Geoffrey & Cyd Holsclaw about intimacy and attachment to God.
We continue our month-long deep dive on ATTACHMENT/INTIMACY.


Topics in our discussion:
 Right brain vs left brain stuff- logical approach to knowing about God, to relational attachment to or with God.
The old marriage triangle of husband and wife at the bottom, as you grow closer to God, you grow closer to each other. What is right and wrong about that
Barriers to attachment with God?
How church trauma or trauma in a marriage can impact one's view of God or attachment to God.
   About our Guests:
Geoff Holsclaw (PhD) is an author of multiple books, a visiting professor of theology at Western Theological Seminary, and co-founder of the Center for Embodied Faith (embodiedfaith.life). Co-author of the forthcoming Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection.
 Cyd Holsclaw is an author, spiritual director, and pastor. She is also a trauma-informed, Jesus-centered, professional certified coach focused on embodied practices and building a secure attachment to God. Co-author of the forthcoming Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Move You into Confident Faith, Courage, and Connection.
Learn more at www.cydholsclaw.com

Today's podcast kicks off a new series, running through November 3rd, and concludes with Dr. Karl Lehman. This 6-week series focuses on identity, attachment, wounds, lament, and securing our attachment in Christ, not your marriage.
In this episode of Neurodiverse Christian Couples, hosts Dan and Stephanie welcome back neurotheologian Dr. Jim Wilder for a deep dive into identity formation, attachment, and the brain, especially as it relates to neurodiverse individuals and marriages.
 Dr. Wilder explains how our identity develops from infancy through adolescence, highlighting key brain regions (like the orbital prefrontal cortex, corpus callosum, and mirror neuron system) and how they contribute to our sense of self and our ability to connect with others. He discusses what happens when these developmental processes are disrupted or different — as is often the case in autism, ADHD, and other developmental differences — and how this affects relationships, emotional regulation, and group belonging.
 The conversation explores:
 How attachment and caregiver attunement in infancy shape emotional identity.
Why the adolescent brain shifts focus from Who am I? to Who are my people? — and how failing to find a “herd” can impact identity.
The biological and neurological reasons why change (especially in neurodiverse individuals) takes time, encouragement, and community rather than just “trying harder.”
Why accountability in the traditional sense often fails, and how a supportive group offering healthy correction is much more effective for growth and transformation.
How autism impacts the identity center of the brain and its implications for marital relationships
  This episode sets the stage for a series on identity and attachment, touching on grief, resilience, and sacred attachment, with upcoming guests offering complementary perspectives.
 If you’re curious about how brain development, faith, and neurodiversity intersect — especially within marriage and community — this episode provides both insight and encouragement.
 About Our Guest Dr. Jim Wilder:
Dr. Jim Wilder has been training leaders and counselors for over 30 years on five continents. Jim grew up in South America and is bilingual (English/Spanish). He is the author of nineteen books with a strong focus on maturity and relational skills. Dr. Wilder has served as a guest lecturer at Fuller Seminary, Biola, Talbot Seminary, Point Loma University, Montreat College, Tyndale Seminary, and elsewhere.
  Dr. Jim Wilder has extensive clinical counseling experience and is the chief neurotheologian of Life Model Works, a nonprofit working at the intersection of theology and brain science. Life Model Works builds on the fifty-year legacy of Shepherd’s House, which began in the 1970s as a ministry to street kids in Van Nuys, California.
 In those early days, Jim worked with the team of volunteer counselors and Fuller Seminary faculty to build a counseling center to help broken people recover from negative habits, addictions, abuse, and trauma. By the 1990s, Jim was Assistant Director and later Executive Director of Shepherd’s House, helping hundreds of pastors and churches with their toughest counseling cases.
 Jim was intimately involved in 1987 when Shepherd’s House conducted a careful review of why some people with the same level of trauma and treatment recovered, but others did not. The results of this case-by-case study became The Life Model, a new recovery model. The Life Model study findings were published in Living from the Heart Jesus Gave You.
 Other podcasts we referenced:
Escaping Enemy Mode Podcast:
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/escaping-enemy-mode-with-dr-jim-wilder--52449734
 What is LifeModel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOcc2QJ0tTg
 Fear Bonds and Love Bonds with Dr. Wilder
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/fear-bonds-love-bonds-and-q-a-with-dr-jim-wilder--57526192
 Dr. Wilder's Books for 2026 Courses
Life Passages of Men
Growing a More Human Community

Today, Dan & Stephanie try to cover a difficult topic using stories that can happen with neurodiverse couples and weaving in the story of Elizabeth Holmes/ Theranos after seeing the documentary on HBO Max about remembering differently, different priorities, and lying to oneself.
 Often, the couple remembers something differently (more often than not) and gets stuck in the weeds on whether a fact is true or not true instead of solving the actual problem or coming up with a future solution from hindsight learning. Many of our couples get stuck in what is sin, what is a lie, when is this a character flaw or issue?
 Stephanie began the discussion by setting up some Gottman research that states 69% of couples' issues are perpetual and unsolvable, so what do you do?
In neurodiverse couples, you can guarantee that you will remember situations and events differently.
You can count on the two of you to have different perspectives and priorities- what do you do?
Looking at the definition of a lie:
General Definition:
A lie is generally defined as a false statement made with the intent to deceive someone.
It involves making a statement that the speaker knows to be untrue, to cause the listener to believe it is true.
Lies involve the intention to deceive or omit something so as not to have a penalty or consequence.
What to do?
 After listening to the documentary The Inventor: Out for Blood in Silicon Valley, Dan and Stephanie arrive at different places where they believe Elizabeth Holmes (no relation) is lying with intent. Is she lying to herself? Stuck in dreams or expectations that will never be? Lying to others? What do you think?
What do you do when you remember differently and need to solve a problem, or you have differences and wants and needs and priorities?
Dan and Stephanie also talk about the perspective gap and learning from it, and how to stay relational when you disagree.
An older podcast called Stuck in the Weeds is mentioned- you can find that here:
https://www.spreaker.com/episode/stuck-in-the-weeds-communication-collaboration-misfires--64597917
 Find the entire catalog here:
https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/neurodiverse-christian-couples--4992356
or from our home page
www.christianneurodiversemarriage.com
 Find out what courses are available at www.holmesasr.com