This one was an emotional one to make. We sat down with the pastors who are now in transition to another part of their journey. We talk about their impact on us as a couple and on the church, and how we came to know Dr. Jim Wilder, LifeModel Works, Neurotheology, and more! Dan talks about how he went from showing up at church and having intellectual knowledge of Jesus to an attached relationship with Jesus and the impact on him, our marriage, and how he does life and relationships!
 Fall classes are open for registration- we believe change and transformation happens in groups!
www.HolmesASR.com
Groups for Men
Groups for Women
One on Communication- Feedback!
 Dan's groups fill quickly and often have wait lists!
Groups are required for any onboarding work with Dr. Stephanie/Dan.

This month, we examined weaponized Scriptures, and today we talk with Thomas Pryde of Psalm 82 Initiative to talk about, When is it Abuse?
Thomas said a healthy relationship uses whatever power you have to help others, not harm them, and when you love someone, freedom abounds, but freedom is not anarchy. What does that mean?
Join us for the discussion.
We started with the definition of abuse from the Department of Justice website:
https://www.justice.gov/ovw/domestic-violence
Thomas Pryde said that the Abuser
Is Entitled
Wants Control
Uses Coercion
Expects Compliance
How does neurodiversity play into this? We asked Thomas about the crossover of neurodiversity in the dynamics of what he sees over the decades and he sees a high crossover.
If you are in an abusive situation and need guidance or support-
https://www.psalm82initiative.org/refuge
You are in danger:
If you are a domestic violence victim seeking help, here are some resources:

• National Domestic Violence Hotline: Call 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) or chat online for 24/7 support and local advocacy WomensLaw.org.
• DomesticShelters.org: Search for community shelters and programs to connect with local advocates and access tools to escape domestic abuse domesticshelters.org.
• Live Support: Speak to a live advocate through the National Domestic Violence Hotline for confidential support thehotline.org.
• State Resources: Find resources and programs in your state that provide support for women who have experienced abuse Office on Women's Health.
• Comprehensive Resources: Explore various resources for survivors, including hotlines, shelters, and legal assistance domesticviolence.org.

  
Is your marriage difficult or destructive/abusive?
https://www.familylife.com/articles/topics/marriage/staying-married/resolving-conflict/emotionally-destructive-relationship-questionnaire/
 Need Discernment Coaching? Is this autism or abuse?
https://bg-hc.com/
Are you a woman in ministry/mission or married to someone in ministry in an ND marriage needing discernment coaching?
https://jenileerachel.com/contact/
 Are you looking for resources to navigate the court system- what do I need to know? Other Resources for Christian Women in Abusive Marriage:
Sarah McDugal
https://www.wildernesstowild.com/
 Life Saving divorce:
https://lifesavingdivorce.com/about/

Today, Dr. Stephanie is solo, but NDCC welcomes back the Reverend Bruce C. E. Fleming, the Host of The Eden Podcast and co-founder of the Tru316 Foundation. His website is Tru316.com.
 A former Academic Dean and professor of Practical Theology in French-speaking Africa, he is the author of The Eden Book Series that builds on the research of his wife, former Old Testament Professor and full-time clinical psychologist, Dr. Joy Fleming. 
 We will be asking him to share with us life-changing insights Because of Eden 1 Corinthians 11 & 14 and 1 Peter 3.
We go back to Genesis- your view of Genesis 2 & 3 will color your view of other Scripture on men, women, and marriage. We need to TRU up the verse of Genesis 3:16.
Please check out his resources and podcast: https://tru316.com/trubooks/
  Bruce has featured Dan and Stephanie on The Eden Podcast, and he is a returning guest with us now. 

In this episode, Dan and Stephanie sit down with Dr. Jake Porter for a thoughtful and honest conversation about one of the most debated — and often weaponized — passages in Christian marriage discussions: 1 Corinthians 7.
What did Paul actually mean when he wrote about marital intimacy? How has this passage been misused to justify pressure, coercion, and “duty sex” within Christian relationships? And what happens when mutuality, context, and the heart of the Gospel are stripped away from the conversation?
Together, they unpack the historical and relational context of Paul’s words, explore the difference between covenant and control, and discuss how Scripture can be applied in ways that either foster safety and connection or deepen shame and harm.
This episode is not about dismissing Scripture. It is about reading it carefully, relationally, and in the spirit it was intended.
Topics include:

• Weaponized Scripture in marriage
• “Duty sex” and coercive interpretations
• Mutuality and consent in 1 Corinthians 7
• What Dr. Stephanie has heard in her NeuroDiverse Couples' Work
• Is there such a thing as the sin of withholding?
• What Paul was addressing in the Corinthian church
• How pastors and couples can approach these conversations with wisdom and care

A nuanced conversation about theology, relationships, and the difference between biblical intimacy and spiritual pressure.
 About Dr. Jake Porter:
https://www.daringventures.com/
Scripturally, Pastorally & Clinically Trained:
EducationB.A., Elmira College, triple majors in Psychology, Music, Philosophy & Religion
M.Div., Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Th.M. in Spirituality & Ethics, The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary
M.Ed. in Clinical Mental Health Counseling, Lamar University
Ed.D., The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Dissertation: Affective Social Neurobiology & Student Formation: A Transdisciplinary Multimethod Study
Professional Memberships & AffiliationsLead Professor for the Doctor of Professional Counseling Program  & Assistant Professor of Counseling, Kairos University
Faculty, International Institute of Trauma and Addiction Professionals
Member, Division 47 of the APA: Society for Sport, Exercise and Performance Psychology
Member, Division 43 of the APA: Society for Couple and Family Psychology
Member, Division 8 of the APA: Society for Personality and Social Psychology
Member, Society for the Advancement of Sexual Health
Professional ServiceFounder & President, The International Association of Couple–Centered Recovery®
Board of Directors, The Association of Partners of Sex Addiction Trauma Specialists (APSATS)
Board of Directors, Christian Sex Addiction Specialists International (C-SASI)
Professor of Counseling, Kairos University's Houston Graduate School of Theology
Licensure & CertificationsLicensed Professional Counselor, State of Texas (#78173)
Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, State of Montana (#76171)
Board Certified Counselor, National Board for Certified Counselors
Certified Sex Addiction Therapist – Supervisor, International Institute for Trauma and Addiction Professionals
Certified Multiple Addiction Therapist, International Institute for Trauma and Addiction Professionals
Certified Clinical Partner Specialist, The Association for Partners of Sex Addicts Trauma Specialists
Certified Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Provider, The Integrative Psychiatry Institute 
Licensed Psilocybin Facilitator (FL-12de7070), State of Oregon
Certified Clinical Trauma Professional, International Association of Trauma Professionals
Advanced TrainingsCoachRICE Executive Leadership Coach Training, Rice University
PACT Level III (Psychological Approach to Couple Therapy)
Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy (AEDP) Level I
Gottman Couple Therapy Level I
EMDR Level I (EMDRIA–Approved Training)
Emotionally Focused Therapy (Externship, Core Skills 1-4)
Post–Induction Therapy (The Meadows Model), Pia Mellody 

Today on ND Couples Coaches' Corner, Dr. Stephanie and Barbara Grant continue the series on the month-long series examining how Scripture is sometimes misused by spiritual authorities—such as clergy, small-group leaders, biblical counselors, and Christian counselors—in ways that shame or further harm those who are already experiencing abuse in their marriages.
In this special series, Twisted Scripture: When the Bible Is Weaponized, we take a careful and thoughtful look at passages that are frequently used in ways that silence the vulnerable or pressure victims to remain in harmful situations.
 Today's Guest: Author of Life-Saving Divorce, Gretchen Baskerville
Some of today's verses included Malachi 2:16 and passages in Mark 10 and Matthew 19 about divorce.
 Short bio
Gretchen Baskerville is a Christian divorce recovery leader and author. She began leading support groups for single mothers in conservative churches in the Los Angeles area in 1998 and now focuses primarily on reaching people online.
 For more than 25 years, Gretchen has helped women and men of faith find strength, courage, and healing through the challenges of life-saving divorce. She listens with empathy to those recovering from domestic violence, betrayal, infidelity, addiction, and emotional abuse.
 A survivor of a toxic marriage herself, Gretchen understands the journey of rebuilding after loss. Following her own life-saving divorce and years as a single mother, she is now happily remarried.
 She is a graduate of Wheaton College with a degree in Bible and Christian Education.
 Definition:
What’s a Life-Saving Divorce?
A Life-Saving Divorce is the opposite of an “I’m bored” divorce, or an “I miss the party life” divorce. It is a divorce for serious reasons: to find relief from a pattern of sexual immorality, physical violence, chronic emotional abuse, felony behavior, family-crushing addictions, or abandonment through neglect and indifference.
 Links to my resources

• The Life-Saving Divorce: Hope for People Leaving Destructive Relationships
• Book (paperback/eBook/audiobook page): https://amzn.to/3J3vXa7
• Audiobook (direct link): https://amzn.to/4f52Mh4
• Website & Blog: https://lifesavingdivorce.com/
• Pastor Education page: https://lifesavingdivorce.com/pastor-education-domestic-violence-biblical-response/
• Gumroad (EPUB + PDF download): https://gumroad.com/lsp
  • For those who share an Amazon account with their abuser.

Social media

• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/lifesavingdivorce.bsky.social
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lifesavingdivorce
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gretchenbaskerville/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lifesavingdivorce
• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/GGBaskerville
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gretchen-baskerville-2873591b5/

  If you want to join a class for women with Dr. Stephanie Holmes: https://www.holmesasr.com/womengroups check here for current classes.
If you want to work with Barbara Grant: https://bg-hc.com/

Today, we begin a month-long series examining how Scripture is sometimes misused by spiritual authorities—such as clergy, small-group leaders, biblical counselors, and Christian counselors—in ways that shame or further harm those who are already experiencing abuse in their marriages.
In this special series, Twisted Scripture: When the Bible Is Weaponized, we take a careful and thoughtful look at passages that are frequently used in ways that silence the vulnerable or pressure victims to remain in harmful situations.
Our first conversation features Dr. Steven R. Tracy, author of To Harm or To Heal: The Bible and Its Use in Counseling and co-author with Celestia G. Tracy of Mending the Soul. Together, we discuss two critical topics: spiritual abuse by church leadership in their counseling and pastoral care, and the biblical responsibility of leaders to protect those who are vulnerable. We also address commonly misused teachings about forgiveness and reconciliation and how these passages are often applied in ways that ignore the realities of abuse.

Throughout this month-long series, we will continue exploring other frequently cited “clobber verses,” inviting theologians, pastors, and scholars to help us examine Scripture more faithfully and responsibly.

Join us as we work to distinguish between Scripture that heals and Scripture that has been twisted in ways that harm. Steven R. Tracy - CBE International
Steven R. Tracy is a professor of theology and ethics at Phoenix Seminary and co-founder of Mending the Soul Ministries. He is the author of "Mending the Soul: Understanding and Healing Abuse" and co-author of "Marriage at the Crossroads" (forthcoming, InterVarsity). Tracy's work focuses on providing education and resources for the church and community on abuse, sexuality, and healthy intimacy. He has extensive experience in pastoral, classroom, and clinical settings, bringing over 40 years of experience to his work with Mending the Soul.

When we were kids, PDA meant public displays of affection. Now, apparently, it means pathological demand avoidance — which is significantly less fun at family gatherings.
In this episode of Just the Guys, the guys wander through the tangled forest of demand avoidance, rejection sensitivity, imposter syndrome, diagnosis, stubbornness, anxiety, and why taking out the trash can somehow become an existential crisis.

Is PDA just being hardheaded? Is it anxiety? Is it fear of failure? Is it all caps STUBBORN? The conversation wrestles with the difference between rebellion, overwhelm, autonomy, and nervous-system panic while also digging into how autism, rejection sensitivity, and shame can quietly shape marriages, parenting, work, and identity.

Along the way, there are stories about late-life autism diagnosis, self-worth, being terrified of feedback, spectacular failures, emotional growth, and why understanding the why behind behavior matters more than simply yelling louder about the behavior itself.
Basically: four guys trying to understand why human beings are weird while occasionally making fun of themselves in the process. Which is the whole show.
Topics include:

• Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)
• Rejection Sensitivity
• Autism & diagnosis
• Fear of failure vs defiance
• Emotional regulation & relationships
• Self-worth, shame, and feedback
• Why the trash can became symbolic of all human suffering

Dr. Stephanie welcomes back Dr. Celine Saulnier to discuss adaptive and functional skills.
Dr. Celine is the author of the Vineland Adaptive Skills Scales, Third Edition.
Parts of our conversation look at differences in assessing children and adults when determining adaptive and functional skills. A discussion also includes ADOS, CARS, and MIGDAS-2, and what if an adult gets two different results from two different providers using two different measures?
 
About the Guest:
Dr. Saulnier is the founder of Neurodevelopmental Assessment & Consulting Services. NACS develops, teaches, practices, and advocates for state-of-the-art diagnostic assessments for individuals with autism spectrum & related neurodevelopmental disorders. Prior to NACS, Dr. Saulnier joined the Yale research faculty, where she was both the Clinical Director and the Training Director for the Autism Program, managing and supervising multidisciplinary diagnostic evaluations on individuals with autism spectrum and related disorders from infancy through young adulthood. At the Marcus Autism Center, Dr. Saulnier oversaw all activities related to the characterization of individuals participating in clinical research and she was Director of the Clinical Assessment Core for the Emory Autism Center of Excellence grant awarded by NIMH.
 
Dr. Saulnier is co-author of the gold-standard Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scales, Third Edition, and two books: Essentials of Autism Spectrum Disorders Evaluation and Assessment and Essentials of Adaptive Behavior Assessment of Neurodevelopmental Disorders. She develops, teaches, practices, and advocates for state-of-the-art neurodevelopmental diagnostic assessments, with a particular expertise in detecting the earliest emerging risk factors in infants and toddlers.
 
Contact her:https://nacsatl.com/

Today, Barbara & Dr. Stephanie talk with NeuroDiverse Peer Support Network colleague, Jodi Carlton.
Jodi's book, The Misunderstood Mind, is scheduled for release on October 6, 2026, but pre-orders are coming soon. To follow that launch, go to https://jodicarlton.com/
 Barbara Grant: If you want to do relationship work for your ND marriage, look up Barb at https://bg-hc.com/. Barbara has availability for couples and groups are always forming for wives.
 To see what groups Dr. Stephanie has going: https://www.holmesasr.com/womengroups

Today, I welcome back pediatrician, Dr. Mary H Jones. Mary has been a guest on the show and contributed to Uniquely Us, chapter 11, discussing additional biases and stigma BIPOC individuals can face in getting an accurate diagnosis and accommodations. Dr. Jones shares her experience as a pediatrician and mom of neurodivergent kids and in a neurodiverse marriage.
Today, Dr. Stephanie and Dr. Jones discuss early intervention and how diagnosis impacts accommodations and interventions. Dr. Mary Jones is licensed in over 20 states and specializes in ADHD and ASD diagnosis in children, teens, and adults.
Dr. Stephanie asks Dr. Jones when she uses the three most well-known measures: the ADOS, CARS, and MIGDAS-2
Today, with a focus on diagnosis, Patreon with Dan and Stephanie will discuss a different topic
 About Dr. Mary H. Jones & Bright Starts
At Bright Starts, we’re dedicated to helping children, teens, and young adults reach their full potential through early, accurate ADHD evaluations and autism diagnostic services. We understand that every individual is unique — and so is their journey.
 That’s why we provide personalized evaluations, compassionate guidance, and clear next steps for families navigating developmental concerns.
https://brightstartshealth.com/home
 Dr. Mary "What is Autism?"
https://brightstartshealth.com/about-us
 Mary H. Jones, MD, FAAP
Assesses with ADOS-2, CARS and MIGDAS-2
​
Dr. Mary Jones believes there is greatness in each of us and is passionate about equipping and empowering women to reach their fullest potential. 
Throughout her life and career, she has had the privilege of working to empower and equip women and girls to be their best selves. Dr. Mary has also completed a study in autism as a speciality through PESI, and has become an Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinical Specialist. Her vision is to see women living out their purpose and affecting change in their worlds. She is an NT married to a neurodivergent spouse and the mother of a son on the autism spectrum.