When we were kids, PDA meant public displays of affection. Now, apparently, it means pathological demand avoidance — which is significantly less fun at family gatherings.
In this episode of Just the Guys, the guys wander through the tangled forest of demand avoidance, rejection sensitivity, imposter syndrome, diagnosis, stubbornness, anxiety, and why taking out the trash can somehow become an existential crisis.

Is PDA just being hardheaded? Is it anxiety? Is it fear of failure? Is it all caps STUBBORN? The conversation wrestles with the difference between rebellion, overwhelm, autonomy, and nervous-system panic while also digging into how autism, rejection sensitivity, and shame can quietly shape marriages, parenting, work, and identity.

Along the way, there are stories about late-life autism diagnosis, self-worth, being terrified of feedback, spectacular failures, emotional growth, and why understanding the why behind behavior matters more than simply yelling louder about the behavior itself.
Basically: four guys trying to understand why human beings are weird while occasionally making fun of themselves in the process. Which is the whole show.
Topics include:

• Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)
• Rejection Sensitivity
• Autism & diagnosis
• Fear of failure vs defiance
• Emotional regulation & relationships
• Self-worth, shame, and feedback
• Why the trash can became symbolic of all human suffering

Dr. Stephanie welcomes back Dr. Celine Saulnier to discuss adaptive and functional skills.
Dr. Celine is the author of the Vineland Adaptive Skills Scales, Third Edition.
Parts of our conversation look at differences in assessing children and adults when determining adaptive and functional skills. A discussion also includes ADOS, CARS, and MIGDAS-2, and what if an adult gets two different results from two different providers using two different measures?
 
About the Guest:
Dr. Saulnier is the founder of Neurodevelopmental Assessment & Consulting Services. NACS develops, teaches, practices, and advocates for state-of-the-art diagnostic assessments for individuals with autism spectrum & related neurodevelopmental disorders. Prior to NACS, Dr. Saulnier joined the Yale research faculty, where she was both the Clinical Director and the Training Director for the Autism Program, managing and supervising multidisciplinary diagnostic evaluations on individuals with autism spectrum and related disorders from infancy through young adulthood. At the Marcus Autism Center, Dr. Saulnier oversaw all activities related to the characterization of individuals participating in clinical research and she was Director of the Clinical Assessment Core for the Emory Autism Center of Excellence grant awarded by NIMH.
 
Dr. Saulnier is co-author of the gold-standard Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scales, Third Edition, and two books: Essentials of Autism Spectrum Disorders Evaluation and Assessment and Essentials of Adaptive Behavior Assessment of Neurodevelopmental Disorders. She develops, teaches, practices, and advocates for state-of-the-art neurodevelopmental diagnostic assessments, with a particular expertise in detecting the earliest emerging risk factors in infants and toddlers.
 
Contact her:https://nacsatl.com/

Today, Barbara & Dr. Stephanie talk with NeuroDiverse Peer Support Network colleague, Jodi Carlton.
Jodi's book, The Misunderstood Mind, is scheduled for release on October 6, 2026, but pre-orders are coming soon. To follow that launch, go to https://jodicarlton.com/
 Barbara Grant: If you want to do relationship work for your ND marriage, look up Barb at https://bg-hc.com/. Barbara has availability for couples and groups are always forming for wives.
 To see what groups Dr. Stephanie has going: https://www.holmesasr.com/womengroups

Today, I welcome back pediatrician, Dr. Mary H Jones. Mary has been a guest on the show and contributed to Uniquely Us, chapter 11, discussing additional biases and stigma BIPOC individuals can face in getting an accurate diagnosis and accommodations. Dr. Jones shares her experience as a pediatrician and mom of neurodivergent kids and in a neurodiverse marriage.
Today, Dr. Stephanie and Dr. Jones discuss early intervention and how diagnosis impacts accommodations and interventions. Dr. Mary Jones is licensed in over 20 states and specializes in ADHD and ASD diagnosis in children, teens, and adults.
Dr. Stephanie asks Dr. Jones when she uses the three most well-known measures: the ADOS, CARS, and MIGDAS-2
Today, with a focus on diagnosis, Patreon with Dan and Stephanie will discuss a different topic
 About Dr. Mary H. Jones & Bright Starts
At Bright Starts, we’re dedicated to helping children, teens, and young adults reach their full potential through early, accurate ADHD evaluations and autism diagnostic services. We understand that every individual is unique — and so is their journey.
 That’s why we provide personalized evaluations, compassionate guidance, and clear next steps for families navigating developmental concerns.
https://brightstartshealth.com/home
 Dr. Mary "What is Autism?"
https://brightstartshealth.com/about-us
 Mary H. Jones, MD, FAAP
Assesses with ADOS-2, CARS and MIGDAS-2
​
Dr. Mary Jones believes there is greatness in each of us and is passionate about equipping and empowering women to reach their fullest potential. 
Throughout her life and career, she has had the privilege of working to empower and equip women and girls to be their best selves. Dr. Mary has also completed a study in autism as a speciality through PESI, and has become an Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinical Specialist. Her vision is to see women living out their purpose and affecting change in their worlds. She is an NT married to a neurodivergent spouse and the mother of a son on the autism spectrum.

In this episode of Just the Guys, the conversation explores a simple but powerful relational reality: misalignment is inevitable — mismanagement is optional. Whether in marriage, friendships, or team dynamics, people regularly share the same overall goal while differing on expectations, timing, methods, or emotional responses. The group discusses how alignment is less about agreeing on every detail and more about moving in the same general direction while learning to define, notice, and communicate through the inevitable “bumps along the road.” As they note, “You can’t manage something you can’t define,” and many conflicts arise not from disagreement itself but from misalignment going unnoticed, unspoken, unmanaged, or unresolved. 

The episode uses humor and memorable metaphors to drive the point home — especially the idea that avoiding tension only makes it heavier to carry later. “Give me the extra stinky bag… it still has to go out.” Addressing relational drift early, when emotional weather is calm, prevents compounded frustration and protects the connection. Ultimately, the discussion reframes relational maturity as the ability to remain connected even when not fully aligned, recognizing that shared purpose can coexist with different approaches. Managing misalignment well may matter more than achieving perfect alignment at all.

We are so happy to have Tommy & Ginny with us on the show today, sharing their story. Tommy & Ginny share their neurodiverse journey from the diagnosis and freedom from shame in Tommy to Ginny realizing she needed self-care support and a community! They filled in their story with some blogs for us back in 2025.

Check out their blogs:
https://www.christianneurodiversemarriage.com/post/beauty-from-the-rapids-navigating-our-blended-neurodiverse-marriage
https://www.christianneurodiversemarriage.com/post/beauty-from-the-rapids

Today, Dr. Stephanie & Barb discuss the four principles of expectations (outlined in Emotionally Healthy Relationships by the Scazzeros) and apply them to Neurodiverse marriages.

Are your expectations:
Unconscious
Unrealistic
Unspoken
Unagreed Upon

In a discussion over a fast earlier this year, we were facing big decisions and in prayer and fasting together on misalignment and differing views. Dan came up with the idea to do a show on this- when you are in misalignment or competing needs- what do you do? Do you resort to the rules or roles - well, the man wins? Or do you ask God for more guidance? Relationships and slowing down are rarely efficient but always important.

Continuing our Theme this month, looking at how the Church ministers to (or doesn't minister to) the entire body of Christ.
We have on the panel today representatives from Together We Care, SOAR and KeyMinistry/Disability and the Church.
Do you know the difference in Diversity- Inclusion & Belonging? The importance of community!

About our panelists
Jilliam Palmiotto/Together We Care
Jillian Palmiotto is the Founder and Executive Director of Together We Care, a Georgia-based nonprofit that equips and empowers families impacted by disabilities through strategic planning, advocacy, and practical support. With over a decade of experience in special needs ministry, Jillian also serves as the Special Needs Inclusion Coordinator at West Ridge Church and as the Executive Director of the Together Conference. Her passion for building inclusive communities is fueled by her personal journey as a special education teacher and disability ministry leader. Jillian brings a wealth of knowledge, compassion, and real-world expertise to every conversation—helping families, churches, and organizations navigate complex systems with hope and clarity.
 Doc Hunsley/SOAR
Stephen “Doc” Hunsley, M.D. is the Executive Director and founder of SOAR Special Needs in Lenexa, Kansas. SOAR (Special Opportunities, Abilities, and Relationships) serves over 1500 individuals with special needs through regular respite events and the nation’s largest Disability Day Camp. Doc is currently assisting over 725 churches locally, nationally, and globally in starting a Disability Ministry. Doc also organizes the Wonderfully Made Conference held annually every October in Kansas City. Doc is a USAF veteran and a retired disabled pediatrician while his wife, Kay, continues practicing pediatrics. They are proud parents to three beautiful children: Luke, Mark, and Sarah. The Hunsley’s middle child, Mark, is presently running the halls of heaven. During Mark’s five-year earthly stay, he gave his family the opportunity to learn from and love a child with autism.
 Dr. Steve Grcevich/Disability & the Church/Key Ministry
Dr. Steve Grcevich is a child and adolescent psychiatrist with 40 years of experience as a clinician, researcher, and professor who serves as President and Founder of Key Ministry. He plays a lead role in Key Ministry’s work to support churches in evangelism and outreach to the mental health community. He is the author of Mental Health and the Church (Zondervan), the first comprehensive model to guide churches in their mental health outreach and inclusion efforts. In his role with Key Ministry, he has been invited to speak or create resources for the American Association of Christian Counselors, the Christian Medical Dental Society, the Colson Center, the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention and the National Association of Evangelicals. He currently serves on Focus on the Family’s Physician Resource Council and is a widely requested speaker at national ministry conferences.

Today is a different feel for Just the Guys with guest panelists John Fela & Rev. Josh Davis.
This month, we are putting the focus on disability, differences, and diversity, and the Church at large!
Dan, John & Josh share personal and lived experiences, father, pastor, spiritual director, coach, and advocate experiences!
What is grief? Is that wrong? Does Grief mean God didn't do something good for me?
How is the CHURCH doing in supporting families with a member (or members) on the autism spectrum?
The Guys talk about what went well, the guilt they carry for what they didn't know at the time, forcing assimilation/masking in the 'church environment' as well as what they know now, and how churches can better come along with children/teens/families.
 John Fela:
John Fela (M.Ed) is a national disability advocate, working with both faith-based and non-faith-based disability organizations. He previously worked for Joni and Friends, a global disability ministry. Prior to that, he spent almost 20 years in education, serving in a variety of roles as a classroom teacher in both public and private school settings, as well as being a mentor teacher and school director. He holds certifications in both Montessori and traditional teaching methods and is trained in a variety of specializations, including ESL and Special Education.
John is a public speaker, a blogger for a variety of disability advocacy platforms, and the author of Faith Like My Father, a memoir of his journey as a parent of a child with a disability. John lives in Lyons, IL, with his wife, Faith, and is father to his son, Christopher (ASD/NS).
https://johnfela.com/contact/
 Josh Davis:
Josh Davis is not just a pastor—he is an advocate for neurodivergent individuals, using his platform to share hearts, build bridges, and encourage understanding in a world that often overlooks the unique experiences of those with autism and ADHD. He invites you to explore your own faith, engage in self-discovery, and discover the endless possibilities that lie ahead as you seek a deeper connection with yourself and God.
Don’t miss out on the ongoing conversation about faith and neurodivergence.


To connect further, find Josh on Facebook, Instagram, or email at: [email protected]. Or, for personal encouragement on your own neurodivergence journey, consider booking a spiritual direction session with Josh on Patreon.
Listen to NeuroDivergent Faith podcast at:
https://www.buzzsprout.com/2441513/episodes/16504569-discovering-autism-adhd-through-faith-josh-s-journey-of-self-discovery