NeuroDiverse Christian Couples

Today on ND Couples Coaches' Corner, Dr. Stephanie and Barbara Grant continue the series on the month-long series examining how Scripture is sometimes misused by spiritual authorities—such as clergy, small-group leaders, biblical counselors, and Christian counselors—in ways that shame or further harm those who are already experiencing abuse in their marriages.
In this special series, Twisted Scripture: When the Bible Is Weaponized, we take a careful and thoughtful look at passages that are frequently used in ways that silence the vulnerable or pressure victims to remain in harmful situations.
 Today's Guest: Author of Life-Saving Divorce, Gretchen Baskerville
Some of today's verses included Malachi 2:16 and passages in Mark 10 and Matthew 19 about divorce.
 Short bio
Gretchen Baskerville is a Christian divorce recovery leader and author. She began leading support groups for single mothers in conservative churches in the Los Angeles area in 1998 and now focuses primarily on reaching people online.
 For more than 25 years, Gretchen has helped women and men of faith find strength, courage, and healing through the challenges of life-saving divorce. She listens with empathy to those recovering from domestic violence, betrayal, infidelity, addiction, and emotional abuse.
 A survivor of a toxic marriage herself, Gretchen understands the journey of rebuilding after loss. Following her own life-saving divorce and years as a single mother, she is now happily remarried.
 She is a graduate of Wheaton College with a degree in Bible and Christian Education.
 Definition:
What’s a Life-Saving Divorce?
A Life-Saving Divorce is the opposite of an “I’m bored” divorce, or an “I miss the party life” divorce. It is a divorce for serious reasons: to find relief from a pattern of sexual immorality, physical violence, chronic emotional abuse, felony behavior, family-crushing addictions, or abandonment through neglect and indifference.
 Links to my resources

• The Life-Saving Divorce: Hope for People Leaving Destructive Relationships
• Book (paperback/eBook/audiobook page): https://amzn.to/3J3vXa7
• Audiobook (direct link): https://amzn.to/4f52Mh4
• Website & Blog: https://lifesavingdivorce.com/
• Pastor Education page: https://lifesavingdivorce.com/pastor-education-domestic-violence-biblical-response/
• Gumroad (EPUB + PDF download): https://gumroad.com/lsp
  • For those who share an Amazon account with their abuser.

Social media

• Bluesky: https://bsky.app/profile/lifesavingdivorce.bsky.social
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/lifesavingdivorce
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/gretchenbaskerville/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@lifesavingdivorce
• Twitter/X: https://twitter.com/GGBaskerville
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/gretchen-baskerville-2873591b5/

  If you want to join a class for women with Dr. Stephanie Holmes: https://www.holmesasr.com/womengroups check here for current classes.
If you want to work with Barbara Grant: https://bg-hc.com/

Today, we begin a month-long series examining how Scripture is sometimes misused by spiritual authorities—such as clergy, small-group leaders, biblical counselors, and Christian counselors—in ways that shame or further harm those who are already experiencing abuse in their marriages.
In this special series, Twisted Scripture: When the Bible Is Weaponized, we take a careful and thoughtful look at passages that are frequently used in ways that silence the vulnerable or pressure victims to remain in harmful situations.
Our first conversation features Dr. Steven R. Tracy, author of To Harm or To Heal: The Bible and Its Use in Counseling and co-author with Celestia G. Tracy of Mending the Soul. Together, we discuss two critical topics: spiritual abuse by church leadership in their counseling and pastoral care, and the biblical responsibility of leaders to protect those who are vulnerable. We also address commonly misused teachings about forgiveness and reconciliation and how these passages are often applied in ways that ignore the realities of abuse.

Throughout this month-long series, we will continue exploring other frequently cited “clobber verses,” inviting theologians, pastors, and scholars to help us examine Scripture more faithfully and responsibly.

Join us as we work to distinguish between Scripture that heals and Scripture that has been twisted in ways that harm. Steven R. Tracy - CBE International
Steven R. Tracy is a professor of theology and ethics at Phoenix Seminary and co-founder of Mending the Soul Ministries. He is the author of "Mending the Soul: Understanding and Healing Abuse" and co-author of "Marriage at the Crossroads" (forthcoming, InterVarsity). Tracy's work focuses on providing education and resources for the church and community on abuse, sexuality, and healthy intimacy. He has extensive experience in pastoral, classroom, and clinical settings, bringing over 40 years of experience to his work with Mending the Soul.

When we were kids, PDA meant public displays of affection. Now, apparently, it means pathological demand avoidance — which is significantly less fun at family gatherings.
In this episode of Just the Guys, the guys wander through the tangled forest of demand avoidance, rejection sensitivity, imposter syndrome, diagnosis, stubbornness, anxiety, and why taking out the trash can somehow become an existential crisis.

Is PDA just being hardheaded? Is it anxiety? Is it fear of failure? Is it all caps STUBBORN? The conversation wrestles with the difference between rebellion, overwhelm, autonomy, and nervous-system panic while also digging into how autism, rejection sensitivity, and shame can quietly shape marriages, parenting, work, and identity.

Along the way, there are stories about late-life autism diagnosis, self-worth, being terrified of feedback, spectacular failures, emotional growth, and why understanding the why behind behavior matters more than simply yelling louder about the behavior itself.
Basically: four guys trying to understand why human beings are weird while occasionally making fun of themselves in the process. Which is the whole show.
Topics include:

• Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA)
• Rejection Sensitivity
• Autism & diagnosis
• Fear of failure vs defiance
• Emotional regulation & relationships
• Self-worth, shame, and feedback
• Why the trash can became symbolic of all human suffering

Dr. Stephanie welcomes back Dr. Celine Saulnier to discuss adaptive and functional skills.
Dr. Celine is the author of the Vineland Adaptive Skills Scales, Third Edition.
Parts of our conversation look at differences in assessing children and adults when determining adaptive and functional skills. A discussion also includes ADOS, CARS, and MIGDAS-2, and what if an adult gets two different results from two different providers using two different measures?
 
About the Guest:
Dr. Saulnier is the founder of Neurodevelopmental Assessment & Consulting Services. NACS develops, teaches, practices, and advocates for state-of-the-art diagnostic assessments for individuals with autism spectrum & related neurodevelopmental disorders. Prior to NACS, Dr. Saulnier joined the Yale research faculty, where she was both the Clinical Director and the Training Director for the Autism Program, managing and supervising multidisciplinary diagnostic evaluations on individuals with autism spectrum and related disorders from infancy through young adulthood. At the Marcus Autism Center, Dr. Saulnier oversaw all activities related to the characterization of individuals participating in clinical research and she was Director of the Clinical Assessment Core for the Emory Autism Center of Excellence grant awarded by NIMH.
 
Dr. Saulnier is co-author of the gold-standard Vineland Adaptive Behavior Scales, Third Edition, and two books: Essentials of Autism Spectrum Disorders Evaluation and Assessment and Essentials of Adaptive Behavior Assessment of Neurodevelopmental Disorders. She develops, teaches, practices, and advocates for state-of-the-art neurodevelopmental diagnostic assessments, with a particular expertise in detecting the earliest emerging risk factors in infants and toddlers.
 
Contact her:https://nacsatl.com/

Today, Barbara & Dr. Stephanie talk with NeuroDiverse Peer Support Network colleague, Jodi Carlton.
Jodi's book, The Misunderstood Mind, is scheduled for release on October 6, 2026, but pre-orders are coming soon. To follow that launch, go to https://jodicarlton.com/
 Barbara Grant: If you want to do relationship work for your ND marriage, look up Barb at https://bg-hc.com/. Barbara has availability for couples and groups are always forming for wives.
 To see what groups Dr. Stephanie has going: https://www.holmesasr.com/womengroups

Today, I welcome back pediatrician, Dr. Mary H Jones. Mary has been a guest on the show and contributed to Uniquely Us, chapter 11, discussing additional biases and stigma BIPOC individuals can face in getting an accurate diagnosis and accommodations. Dr. Jones shares her experience as a pediatrician and mom of neurodivergent kids and in a neurodiverse marriage.
Today, Dr. Stephanie and Dr. Jones discuss early intervention and how diagnosis impacts accommodations and interventions. Dr. Mary Jones is licensed in over 20 states and specializes in ADHD and ASD diagnosis in children, teens, and adults.
Dr. Stephanie asks Dr. Jones when she uses the three most well-known measures: the ADOS, CARS, and MIGDAS-2
Today, with a focus on diagnosis, Patreon with Dan and Stephanie will discuss a different topic
 About Dr. Mary H. Jones & Bright Starts
At Bright Starts, we’re dedicated to helping children, teens, and young adults reach their full potential through early, accurate ADHD evaluations and autism diagnostic services. We understand that every individual is unique — and so is their journey.
 That’s why we provide personalized evaluations, compassionate guidance, and clear next steps for families navigating developmental concerns.
https://brightstartshealth.com/home
 Dr. Mary "What is Autism?"
https://brightstartshealth.com/about-us
 Mary H. Jones, MD, FAAP
Assesses with ADOS-2, CARS and MIGDAS-2
​
Dr. Mary Jones believes there is greatness in each of us and is passionate about equipping and empowering women to reach their fullest potential. 
Throughout her life and career, she has had the privilege of working to empower and equip women and girls to be their best selves. Dr. Mary has also completed a study in autism as a speciality through PESI, and has become an Autism Spectrum Disorder Clinical Specialist. Her vision is to see women living out their purpose and affecting change in their worlds. She is an NT married to a neurodivergent spouse and the mother of a son on the autism spectrum.

In this episode of Just the Guys, the conversation explores a simple but powerful relational reality: misalignment is inevitable — mismanagement is optional. Whether in marriage, friendships, or team dynamics, people regularly share the same overall goal while differing on expectations, timing, methods, or emotional responses. The group discusses how alignment is less about agreeing on every detail and more about moving in the same general direction while learning to define, notice, and communicate through the inevitable “bumps along the road.” As they note, “You can’t manage something you can’t define,” and many conflicts arise not from disagreement itself but from misalignment going unnoticed, unspoken, unmanaged, or unresolved. 

The episode uses humor and memorable metaphors to drive the point home — especially the idea that avoiding tension only makes it heavier to carry later. “Give me the extra stinky bag… it still has to go out.” Addressing relational drift early, when emotional weather is calm, prevents compounded frustration and protects the connection. Ultimately, the discussion reframes relational maturity as the ability to remain connected even when not fully aligned, recognizing that shared purpose can coexist with different approaches. Managing misalignment well may matter more than achieving perfect alignment at all.

We are so happy to have Tommy & Ginny with us on the show today, sharing their story. Tommy & Ginny share their neurodiverse journey from the diagnosis and freedom from shame in Tommy to Ginny realizing she needed self-care support and a community! They filled in their story with some blogs for us back in 2025.

Check out their blogs:
https://www.christianneurodiversemarriage.com/post/beauty-from-the-rapids-navigating-our-blended-neurodiverse-marriage
https://www.christianneurodiversemarriage.com/post/beauty-from-the-rapids

Today, Dr. Stephanie & Barb discuss the four principles of expectations (outlined in Emotionally Healthy Relationships by the Scazzeros) and apply them to Neurodiverse marriages.

Are your expectations:
Unconscious
Unrealistic
Unspoken
Unagreed Upon

In a discussion over a fast earlier this year, we were facing big decisions and in prayer and fasting together on misalignment and differing views. Dan came up with the idea to do a show on this- when you are in misalignment or competing needs- what do you do? Do you resort to the rules or roles - well, the man wins? Or do you ask God for more guidance? Relationships and slowing down are rarely efficient but always important.