If you’ve ever second-guessed your sanity, asked Google “Is my husband a narcissist or just an annoying human?” or thought you might be sinning by not cheerfully submitting to your own emotional obliteration, this episode is your wake-up call... with love.

Christian counselor, Kris Reece, is back on the show for part two of our convo about the toxic mind games that keep Christian women stuck, particularly when Jesus is used as the emotional ball-and-chain.

Together, we unravel gaslighting, guilt, spiritual manipulation, emotional immaturity, and why you’re not selfish or sinful for walking away from garbage disguised as godliness.

Key Takeaways:

• Label-Schmabel: Stop obsessing over whether he's a narcissist or just "difficult." The real question is: does he take responsibility or make excuses? That’s your answer.
• Jesus Isn’t Your Abuser’s Alibi: Jesus didn’t die so you could stay trapped in a soul-sucking relationship. 
• Guilt is a Control Tool: Toxic people weaponize your good-girl guilt to keep you stuck. 
• Change the Dance: You can’t make him change. But you can change the steps you’re taking, and that alone can shift the entire dynamic. 
• You’re Not Powerless: If everything hinges on him, you’re trapped. Shift the focus back to YOU: your choices, your growth, your freedom.
• Truth Bomb: It’s Not Your Fault: You’re not responsible for his tantrums, beliefs, or abuse. You are responsible for how you respond and whether you keep playing along.
• Rebuilding Takes Time: Gaslighting screws with your reality. Healing comes as you reconnect with truth, reclaim your identity, and learn to giggle (a little) when grown men act like kindergartners.

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Listen to Part One of my interview with Kris.
• Grab a copy of Kris’ new book, Breaking the Narcissist’s Grip.
• Get her FREE Narcissist Survival Guide. 
• Check out her YouTube channel.
• Connect with Kris on Instagram and Facebook.

Kris Reece is a Christian counselor, author, and speaker who helps believers break free from toxic relationships and codependency biblically and practically. With over 30 years of combined personal and professional experience, Kris has guided thousands through the emotional wreckage left by narcissistic and manipulative relationships. She blends deep biblical truth with real-world strategies to help others reclaim their identity, rebuild confidence, and walk in the freedom Christ offers. Kris is the author of Breaking the Narcissist’s Grip and host of a fast-growing YouTube channel where she equips Christians to set boundaries, overcome manipulation, break trauma bonds, and heal after toxic relationships.

Is it ever okay to walk away from your own mother… or your husband? (Cue the gasps from the peanut gallery clutching their pearls.) If you grew up in church culture, you probably heard that honoring your parents and submitting to your husband meant swallowing abuse with a smile. But guess what? That’s not actually what Jesus had in mind.

In this episode, I sit down with Christian counselor and author Kris Reese (yes, the YouTube powerhouse with over 476,000 subscribers) to dismantle the toxic myths that keep Christian women chained to destructive relationships.

Together, we talk about:

• The big guilt trip – Why Christians confuse “honor” with “obey” and how that keeps grown women stuck in parent-child dynamics with their 70-year-old mothers.
• The covenant conundrum – What makes walking away from a spouse more complicated, and why wisdom (not religious rule-keeping) is the real key.
• The fog machine – Fear, obligation, and guilt: the trifecta abusers use to keep you running in circles like a hamster who just discovered Peloton.
• Boundaries ≠ lack of forgiveness – FACTS: You can forgive your mom and still not show up to her guilt-drenched Sunday dinners. You can forgive your husband and still not share a bed with him while he weaponizes scripture against you.
• Manipulation tactics 101 – Victimhood and scripture-twisting are the go-to moves of toxic moms and spouses everywhere. (“You’re not being a good daughter/wife” translates to: “My control over you is slipping and I hate it.”)
• Trauma bonds and porcupines – Why you might be clinging to the emotional equivalent of a barbed-wire teddy bear, and how to finally put it down without losing your sanity.
• Why Christians stay too long – It’s not because they’re lazy or selfish. It’s because they’ve been conditioned to confuse holiness with masochism.

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Grab a copy of Kris’ new book, Breaking the Narcissist’s Grip.
• Get her FREE Narcissist Survival Guide. 
• Check out her YouTube channel.
• Connect with Kris on Instagram and Facebook.

Kris Reece is a Christian counselor, author, and speaker who helps believers break free from toxic relationships and codependency biblically and practically. With over 30 years of combined personal and professional experience, Kris has guided thousands through the emotional wreckage left by narcissistic and manipulative relationships. She blends deep biblical truth with real-world strategies to help others reclaim their identity, rebuild confidence, and walk in the freedom Christ offers. Kris is the author of Breaking the Narcissist’s Grip and host of a fast-growing YouTube channel where she equips Christians to set boundaries, overcome manipulation, break trauma bonds, and heal after toxic relationships.

You know how sometimes life gives you lemons and then instead of sugar for lemonade, the church hands you a moldy marriage book and says, “Submit harder”? That was my reality. In this episode, I take you back to a hotel room where I was nine months pregnant and seriously questioning if I wanted to keep living. 

Instead, I stumbled my way out of despair and into freedom thanks to a stack of books, a laptop, and eventually, the real God (not the mean knock-off version I had been worshiping).

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• The two hotel rooms that changed everything: one where I nearly gave up, and one where I finally woke up.
• How books became my lifelines (thank you, Google rabbit holes).
• The moment I realized the “god” I was serving looked suspiciously like my abusive husband. 
• Why leaving my marriage also meant leaving behind a toxic image of God.
• What it really means to be a butterfly (It’s not about fluttering around in a meadow. It’s about fierce, unapologetic freedom).

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Who’s Pushing Your Buttons
• Foolproofing Your Life
• Check out a related Flying Free Podcast episode, “We Are Like the God We Worship,” and then check out my comprehensive list of the best books for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages. 

What happens when you grow up in hyper-conservative church culture, marry your Bible camp sweetheart at 20, and then spend decades swimming in a poisoned pond of patriarchy, affairs, gaslighting, and spiritual abuse? Jennie’s story is a real look at what it takes to finally climb out of the muck and into fresh water.

If you’ve ever wondered, “Is it me? Or is this whole thing just completely bonkers?” then pull up a chair. Jennie’s journey from silent suffering to empowered freedom will resonate with every woman who’s ever been told to “submit more, pray harder, and wear longer skirts” while her husband runs wild and gets a pat on the back from church elders.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode: 

• How a “perfect Christian marriage” turned into decades of betrayal and control.
• The role toxic church teachings played in keeping Jennie (and her kids) trapped.
• Why standing up for her daughter was the unexpected turning point that led Jennie toward freedom.
• The difference between swimming in poisoned pond water and finally breathing fresh air.
• How Flying Free gave Jennie the tools, words, and community she needed to rewire her brain and rebuild her life.
• The power of “just the next step” (because I hate to break it to you, but God doesn’t hand out the whole escape plan on a silver platter).

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

Some other survivor stories to give you hope: “Military Marriage Abuse: Elizabeth’s Story,” and “Escaping the Man Everyone Admired: Lisa’s Story.”

Do you ever feel like you’re drowning in guilt, shame, and Christian “shoulds” while trying to survive a toxic marriage, a brutal divorce, or the aftermath of both? What if I told you that letting go, accepting reality, and loving yourself isn’t just a cliche, but it can actually change everything?

In this episode of Flying Free, I dive into the “Let Go, Accept, and Love” tool (a.k.a. LAL, because who doesn’t love an acronym?). Plus, you’ll hear how one brave mama used these steps in the middle of a soul-crushing custody battle, and she came out stronger, freer, and a whole lot wiser.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode: 

• Why believing the actual good news (and not the toxic “dirty worm theology”) matters more than you think.
• The three steps of the LAL tool
• How one Flying Free member used LAL to survive a painful separation from her child with compassion instead of despair.
• The messy, real-life lessons another member learned during her custody evaluation, and why showing humility beats trying to look like “Super Perfect Christian Mom.”
• Practical ways to prepare for divorce and custody evaluations without losing your sanity.

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Check out the Divorced Christian Woman Podcast, my newest podcast specifically for divorced women rebuilding their lives.
• The Mirror Bible is a refreshing Bible translation I highly recommend. 
• Go follow Gretchen Baskerville’s YouTube channel. Also check out a recent interview I did with her, “Do Marriage Intensives Help to Heal Abusive Marriages?”
• Need a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst (CDFA)? Rhonda Noordyk will help you with financial clarity and advocacy in divorce.

Have you ever felt like you're starring in a rerun of your own life? Same arguments. Same heartbreak. Same fake flowers and empty promises. It’s called the abuse cycle, my friend.

In this episode, I dive deep into an exercise that one of our Flying Free members shared in the private forum. She mapped out her relationship’s specific abuse cycle, and what she discovered was pretty important.

Nothing changes when nothing changes. Oof. That one landed.

What you’ll learn:

• The Three Phases of the Abuse Cycle
• What HE Does vs. What YOU Do in each phase, and why it’s crucial to spell it out.
• How this member's personalized cycle became her key to awareness, and eventually, empowerment.
• The Denial Trap: Why “love doesn’t keep a record of wrongs” is not a permission slip to forget he’s hurting you.
• The radical difference between surviving the cycle and disrupting it with intentional action.

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

Check out some other related Flying Free Podcast episodes: “Interrupting the Abuse Cycle” and “How to Change Yourself While Still Stuck in an Emotionally Abusive Marriage.”

Ever fallen for someone who looked flawless on paper, but in real life turned out to be your personal nightmare with a Christian smile slapped on top? 

In today’s episode, I sit down with Maile, a bright spark in our Flying Free community, who thought she’d landed in God’s will when she married her second husband. Instead, she found herself suffocating under spiritual gaslighting, emotional sabotage, and escalating violence, all hidden behind the shiny veneer of “good Christian marriage.”

This is a real story of what it looks like to wake up, break free, and rebuild your life, even when you’ve already done the divorce thing once before, and the church ladies are clutching their pearls at you for round two.

In this episode:

• The red flags Maile ignored during dating (love bombing, control, snooping)
• How spiritual abuse kept her stuck under the “good Christian wife” lie
• Why COVID became the unexpected wake-up call she needed
• How she found the courage to leave, even after already being divorced once
• What freedom and faith look like on the other side of abuse

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Book mentioned: The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel van der Kolk.
• Some other survivor stories: Shelley’s story and Stacie’s story.

Have you ever crawled your way out of an emotionally abusive relationship, finally free, only to be met with cold shoulders, Christian cliques, and confused stares from the very people who should’ve been first in line at your welcome-back party? 

Or maybe you’ve thought about getting out, but your instincts all tell you that you’ll lose everyone you love in the process?

In this episode, I answer two listener-submitted questions that go straight to the heart of what so many Christian women wrestle with post-abuse: rejection from family, exclusion in church, and the confusion that comes with trying to be a decent human in the aftermath of emotional trauma.

We talk:

• The underbelly of emotional immaturity
• Spiritual bypassing in religious circles
• What “grace” actually looks like (hint: it’s not begging for scraps)
• And why your healing is not up for debate

This one’s for every woman who’s been ghosted by her family or made to feel like a spiritual pariah in the church lobby.

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Get a free chapter of my book, “Is It Me? Making Sense of Your Confusing Marriage” and companion workbook when you hop on my mailing list. 
• Listen to some related Flying Free Podcast episodes, including “Why Being Rejected by Your Church and Family Hurts So Bad” and “When You’ve Been Hurt by Church.”

So you’re getting out of your emotionally and spiritually abusive marriage (congratulations, by the way, you’re a hero), and you think the hard part is over? Honey, buckle up. This episode pulls back the curtain on what actually goes down in family court and why women like you and me need to step into the CEO role of our divorce process.

I talk with Amy Polacko, a woman who’s been through it, wrote a book about it, and now helps other women survive it. We cover everything from strategic silence and choosing the right attorney, to the "he’s such a good guy" nonsense that courts just eat up.

Here’s the low-down: You could be framed. Literally. Not metaphorically. Actually framed. So let’s talk about how to not let that happen.

Key Takeaways: 

• You must be the CEO of your divorce. Do not—I repeat, do NOT—hand the wheel to someone else and hope for the best.
• The justice system isn’t always just. Especially if you're a woman who dares to leave an abuser.
• Document everything and hire smart. Get a coach before you get an attorney. Better yet, get Amy. 
• Abusers have a playbook. And Amy knows what’s on every page.
• Your “Christian” husband might still screw you over. Faith language doesn’t mean he’s safe. It might just mean he’s scarier.
• Kids grow up. Even if you lose custody, there’s hope. Connection isn't court-mandated, it’s soul-deep. We’ll talk about what to do if the unthinkable happens.

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

• Check out Amy’s website and get some one-on-one coaching with her.
• Get Amy’s FREE resource, 10 Divorce Mistakes You Can’t Afford to Make. 
• Get the Proactive Playbook for Divorce or take her course, Divorce Decoded.
• Read her co-authored book, Framed: Women in the Family Court Underworld.
• Connect with Amy on Instagram. 
• Go listen to some related Flying Free Podcast episodes, including “Winning Child Custody & Divorce Battles” and “How to Be the Parent Your Child Needs During Divorce.” 
• And of course, consider joining the Flying Free Kaleidoscope where we make education and support for Christian women in emotionally abusive marriages (or making their exit) affordable and life-changing. (Plus Amy is one of our resident coaches!)

Amy is a divorce coach and an award-winning journalist who is a domestic abuse survivor. Through her Freedom Warrior coaching business, she has guided hundreds of women out of toxic relationships and empowers women to be the CEO of their divorce. She is a former full-time investigative reporter on television. Amy’s work has been featured in HuffPost, The Washington Post, Newsweek, NBC News, The Independent, New York Observer and Ms. She co-authored the groundbreaking book FRAMED: Women in the Family Court Underworld with Dr. Christine Cocchiola which exposes the gender bias crisis in our justice system

What if the miracle you've been begging God for—the divine intervention, the total transformation of your emotionally bankrupt marriage—is actually you walking out the door?

In this episode, I pull back the curtain on my own bathroom-floor prayer sob sessions (complete with cold tile and mascara rivers) and challenge the dangerous theology that says staying in abusive marriages = holy martyrdom. 

If you’ve been stuck in a cycle of “pray harder, suffer longer,” it’s time to consider that the still, small voice urging you to get out might actually be God.

Key Takeaways:

• You might be the miracle. Sometimes, walking away is the divine answer.
• God doesn’t endorse abuse. Staying to suffer isn’t a spiritual badge of honor.
• Faith isn’t a formula. Praying harder won’t fix what someone refuses to change.
• Waiting on God means moving. Biblical waiting sometimes involves action, not passive endurance.
• Peace is holy. A quiet, safe life isn’t boring—it’s blessed. 
• Leaving can be faith-filled. Seeking safety is aligning with God's heart, not betraying Him.
• You’re already worthy. Your value isn’t tied to enduring mistreatment.

Read the full show notes and/or ask Natalie a question here

Related Resources:

If you liked today’s episode, you may relate to some of my others, including “What Are the Biblical Grounds for Divorce?” and “How Can You Tell if Your Abusive Partner Has Changed?”