NeuroDiverse Christian Couples

Today, I welcome back Rev. Jenilee Goodwin. On a previous show, Jenilee shared the journey of being on the mission field and their neurodiverse family journey in missions. A lot has happened in her marriage and family journey since then. Today, we talk about neurodiverse marriage and missions as well as abuse and handling that under the lens of being in ministry.
 About Our Guest:
Rev. Jenilee Goodwin
Professional Life Coach
 As a certified professional life coach (ICCI), a certified autism coach (NCDD), and an ordained minister (AG), Jenilee has over 20 years of career ministry experience. Serving in stateside churches and overseas missions, Jenilee brings lived experience, problem-solving skills, compassionate support, and creativity into each coaching session. Jenilee asks hard questions while listening, guiding, and coaching clients in their unique life situations. Jenilee is trained in the Equipping Profile, a personal development coaching tool that helps discover growth points and possible barriers to growth. Through one-on-one and group coaching, Jenilee uses the Equipping Profile, book studies, and even some homework to establish personal development plans, helping clients move forward healthily.
 With many in her immediate family on the autism spectrum, Jenilee has a special call and place in her heart for moms of kids on the spectrum and for NT wives going through the difficulties of ND marriages. Even more specifically, I have a passion for these women who are also in full-time ministry or missions. There are very few places to share the full story. In coaching with Jenilee, you can share every single page of the story.
 In addition to the above skills, Jenilee loves reading, writing, coffee, going for walks, and watching history documentaries.

You can connect with Jenilee daily on Instagram @jenileerachel or through her website, jenileerachel.com

Today, Dr. Stephanie talks to Dan of the Aspie World! Are we still allowed to use the term 'Aspie'? Dan talks us through his autism identification and how that led him to build one of the first platforms on social media about adult autism.

Disclaimer: Today is not a faith-based podcast, but exploring different expressions of Adult Autism/Asperger's from those with lived experiences! You will hear Dan's own worldview in self-expression.
About our Guest in his own words:
Embracing Neurodiversity: My Journey with Autism and ADHD ✨By Daniel M. Jones - The Aspie World

Hello friends,
I want to share something deeply personal—something that completely shifted the trajectory of my life.
At 26, I received a formal diagnosis of Asperger's Syndrome (now Autism Spectrum Disorder), along with ADHD, OCD, and Dyslexia. That moment wasn't about becoming someone new; it was about finally understanding who I always was.
For years, I silently battled confusion, overwhelm, and social exhaustion. Masking my discomfort to "fit in" affected my mental and emotional health deeply.
A Diagnosis Isn’t a Label—It's a Lens.It provided clarity, showing me that I'm not broken; I'm wired differently. Discovering neurodiversity helped me celebrate my differences and recognize my strengths—creativity, hyperfocus, analytical thinking—as true assets.
This revelation inspired me to start The Aspie World, supporting thousands globally in navigating neurodivergent journeys. Our differences drive innovation, empathy, and inclusion, making humanity richer.
Remember, your diagnosis is just the beginning of a beautiful, empowered chapter. You are capable, valuable, and not alone.

Thank you for joining this journey.

With gratitude, Daniel M. Jones Founder of The Aspie World


Dan can be found at:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOKKRcJey93Ms-dL630UNIQ
Dan's Book:
https://www.amazon.com/Autism-Adults-author/dp/1837822336
About when I discovered Dan on YT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDwXqGjohGg
Dan defends the term Asperger's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oB-cH9Os_J8

Have a Do Nothing Day
 Topic:
The guys dive into the complex challenge of mental rest and the idea of having a “do nothing” day. What does it mean to truly rest, especially for neurodiverse men whose minds rarely stop racing?
 Main Themes & Takeaways:
• Rest vs. Productivity:
Many participants admit that even when given free time, they struggle to stop doing. Rest often becomes just another task to accomplish.
• Making Rest Intentional:
Some found that designating rest as a “task” (e.g., the duty of Sabbath or the ministry of presence) helps them engage more fully in non-productive activities without guilt.
• Manual Tasks as Restful:
Simple, repetitive manual labor (such as weeding, doing dishes, or cutting grass) often provides enough stimulation to keep the body occupied and allow the mind to slow down.
• Rest Styles Are Individual:
The conversation affirmed that rest is highly personal—some find rest in watching sports or shows, while others find it through reading or physical exercise. What’s restful to one (e.g., pulling weeds) can feel like torture to another.
• Mental Stillness Is Harder Than Physical Stillness:
Most of the men agreed that while they can stop moving, stopping their minds from constantly thinking or solving problems is a much harder task.
• Neurodiversity and Rest:
The group highlighted how neurodivergent wiring affects the experience of rest. ADHD traits, pathological demand avoidance, and autism spectrum traits influence how they pursue or avoid downtime.
• The Role of Family Systems:
The guys acknowledged the need to consider how one’s version of rest fits into the broader family context. Rest shouldn’t disrupt the connection with spouses or children.
• Sabbath Framed as Task and Discipline:
Rest, especially in a spiritual context, is seen not as laziness but as obedience, modeled after God’s rest on the seventh day. It may take discipline to actually stop.
 Humor & Insight:
From references to Phineas and Ferb’s “Do Nothing Day” to humorous yet poignant nods to North Korean labor camps (as a metaphor for tasks they dislike), the episode strikes a balance between depth and levity.
 Closing Reflection:
True rest might not be inactivity—it might be freedom from expectations. For these men, a restful day often still includes accomplishments, but they come without pressure or obligation.

Today, Dr. Stephanie & Barb discuss the differences in reasons for divorce between men and women when they divorce. Dr. Stephanie interviews Barb about her two divorces in neurodiverse marriages.

Other discussion points:

• Why is divorce so stigmatized in the Church?

• Are there differences in the reasons men and women divorce, based on a Stanford University study on divorce?

• Is abuse a biblical reason for divorce?

• Does Malachi 2:16 say God hates divorce or the impact of it?

• How do we love those who have gone through divorce?

• Can people who are divorced help marriages?

• What is a life-saving divorce?

• Does God overpower your will and change your heart?

• What makes a healthy God-honoring covenant?

• "Divorce is not an option" has been weaponized- how?

In our book, Uniquely Us, Stephanie uses the phrase: 'It was a tale of two marriages.' Dan's was going okay, and Stephanie's was not. We discuss the transition from our NC marriage to our GA marriage, from parallel lives and experiences to building a shared life of experiences.

Our uniquely us may look different from your uniquely u and that is okay! We talk about conflict resolution, and Stephanie completes the 50 states quest. Watch the YouTube when it comes out to see pictures of the amazing hotel in Hood River, OR.


Find the hotel here at: https://www.thistledownonoak.com/

Have you been taught that all emotions except joy are bad? That you need to "count it all joy" in such a way that in your church or religious circles emotions were taught as bad or good, Christians don't have big emotions like sadness, anger, or fear? Today is not a discussion like that!. Dr. Stephanie & Dan talk with Chris & Jen Coursey about REAL joy, and that joy is not a choice, and that joy does not mean denying or diminishing other emotions. Join our discussion today to learn:
Joy vs. Happiness
Managing and Processing the Big 6 Emotions
Remaining Relational and your Christ-centered self when you have big emotions!
 Many ND Christian relationships are high conflict, full of trauma, and low or no joy! Is it even possible?
Dan and Stephanie discuss Courseys' book, 30 Days of Joy, and how they modified it to be a NeuroDiverse Christian Couple.
 This month, the 5-6 podcasts all go together! We encourage you and invite you to listen to the entire month of June in the sequence they were produced.
 Want to know more about the Courseys and THRIVEworks? https://thrivetoday.org/
 START NOW when the kids are young to process their emotions in a healthy way! Materials available for parents!
 Free Download of the Emotion Wheel and Where Emotions Live in your body: Free PDF
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BvYRLx9zRiVE_8ucjgYfNYzbOq8BUTQ9/view
 More About Chris:
For nearly 25 years, Chris has been developing and practicing brain-based solutions to make relationships work. He started out his career specializing in severe trauma and abuse. For several years, he also pastored a small congregation in Michigan. Chris is a published author with ten books in print, including “The Joy Switch: How Your Brain’s Secret Circuit Affects Your Relationships…And How You Can Activate It.” He co-authored his most recent book, “The 4 Habits of Raising Joy-Filled Kids”.
 Chris enjoys spending time with Jen and their two sons, Matthew and Andrew. In addition to studying, writing, jogging, and exercising, he enjoys the outdoors and is one of the rare people who actually like the snow.
 More About Jen:
Jen is passionate about seeing mothers, fathers, and families equipped with the 19 relational skills needed to thrive. As the mother of 2 active teenagers, Jen is grateful to have learned these important skills later in life, as relational skills have no doubt preserved her sanity and prepared her to raise a thriving family in the midst of the ongoing demands from her family and her ministry.
 Jen started the Thriving Mamas blog and is excited to share her parenting and life experiences as well as pass on the skills God has used to transform her life.

In this insightful episode of Neurodiverse Christian Couples, hosts Stephanie and Dan welcome Ed Khouri, President of Equipping Hearts for the Harvest and author of "Becoming a Face of Grace." Together, they explore the crucial interplay between grace and joy, clarifying how genuine grace—being seen as special and favored without earning it—naturally leads to joy, the gladness of being together. Can you have grace AND have boundaries? What about the phrase, "Just give me grace."
 The conversation tackles deep relational issues common in neurodiverse marriages, such as navigating attachment pain, understanding the differences between sin, transgression, and iniquity, and developing effective boundaries without enabling harmful behavior. Ed emphasizes practical strategies for couples to build emotional capacity and relational resilience, including shared quieting exercises and storytelling techniques aimed at fostering mutual joy and appreciation.
 Listeners will find hope and practical guidance for overcoming challenges related to executive functioning, emotional regulation, and relational misunderstandings. Ed Khouri’s insights underscore how grace, boundaries, and joy work together to nurture a healthier, thriving neurodiverse marriage.
 About our Guest: Ed Khouri
Ed is passionate about helping churches, leaders, and small groups develop thriving, healthy
communities rooted in grace, joy, and peace. He was ordained in 1988 and president of
Equipping Hearts for the Harvest. He serves as an Elder at his church.
Ed leads workshops in churches and ministries worldwide, equipping workers to serve hurting
men and women and their communities. He regularly collaborates with groups that include
Thrive Today, Life Model Works, The International Substance Abuse and Addiction Coalition
(ISAAC), and Youth With A Mission’s Addictive Behavior Counseling School. He’s taught classes
for students from approximately 70 nations,
Ed authored “Becoming a Face of Grace: Navigating Lasting Relationships with God and
Others,” “Beyond Becoming: A Field Guide to Sustainable, Transformational Communities,” and
“The Weight of Leadership: How Codependency and Misplaced Mercy Undermine Life and
Ministry.” Working with Dr. Jim Wilder, he co-authored the “Restarting” and “Belonging”
Modules of the Connexus Program. He is also the co-author of “Joy Starts Here: The
Transformation Zone.”
He lives with the love of his life, Maritza, in Conover, North Carolina.
 Equipping Hearts
Ed and his wife, Maritza, founded Equipping Hearts for the Harvest as a 501c3 non-profit
ministry. In 2004. Our goal is to help equip churches, ministries, pastors, leaders, workers,
and volunteers worldwide so that they can effectively serve the needs of their entire
community – including those who wrestle with addictions, trauma, abuse, codependency,
and other life problems. We
 Teach to describe the grace-based framework needed for change,
 Provide skill training that leads to transformation
 Create materials that allow communities to practice and grow skills that sustain
transformation.
 For more information: https://www.equippinghearts.com/

🧠 Episode Summary:
 In this thought-provoking conversation, Dan sits down with Dr. Jeff Holsclaw, co-author (with his wife, Cyd Holsclaw) of Does God Really Like Me? Discovering the God Who Wants to Be With Me. This episode dives deep into the transformative idea that God not only loves us but also genuinely delights in being with us—and what that means for our theology, relationships, and everyday life.
 Geoff shares the journey of shifting from a theological framework focused solely on God’s love to one that also emphasizes His joy and delight. Using vivid metaphors, biblical narratives, and attachment theory, Jeff reframes our understanding of God’s presence, the nature of sin, and the redemptive storyline of Scripture. The discussion includes reflections on parenting, marriage, identity, and how we can mirror God’s delight in our relationships with others.
 ⸻
 🔑 Key Takeaways:
• “Love is built from a thousand little likes.” Shifting language from “God loves you” to “God likes you” often draws people in and resonates on a deeper emotional level.
• Attachment & Theology: Holsclaw connects attachment theory with biblical narratives to explain how God’s presence and purpose form the secure foundation of faith.
• Rewriting the Narrative of Sin: Instead of viewing sin as moral failure alone, Jeff frames it as a rupture in our capacity to remain in God’s presence—one that God actively works to repair.
• Parenting as Presence & Purpose: Fathers and husbands are encouraged to embody both high care and high challenge—to build joyful relationships while nurturing confidence and agency.
• Idol Language Reclaimed: The Genesis image of humans as “little gods” or living idols reframes identity as active representation of God’s nature in the world—not as something static or 2D.
• Reconciliation as Family Business: The episode closes with the idea that salvation is about repairing ruptures—God’s delight includes restoring us, and we’re invited to model that in our own relationships.
 ⸻
 📚 Resources & Mentions:
• Does God Really Like Me? by Geoff & Cyd Holsclaw
• Prodigal Christianity by Geoff Holsclaw and David Fitch
• Upcoming book: Landscapes of the Soul: How the Science and Spirituality of Attachment Can Change Your Faith
• Related thinkers: Dr. Jim Wilder, Karl Lehman, Michael Cusick
• Scripture Focus: Genesis 1–3, Luke 15 (The “Good Father” story), Temple theology, themes of joy & presence
 ⸻
 👤 About the Guest:
 Dr. Geoff Holsclaw
• PhD, Marquette University
• Co-Pastor of Youth and Families, Vineyard North
• Affiliate Professor of Theology, Northern Seminary (Lyle, IL)
• Author, speaker, and podcaster focused on the intersection of neuroscience, attachment, and Christian formation
 📬 Contact & More from Geoff:
🌐 Website: https://embodiedfaith.life
🎧 Podcast: Attaching to God
📝 Substack: Found via website
📘 Google: “Geoff Holsclaw” (with a G!)

Many couples who receive a later in life identification of autism or neurodiversity in marriage come to couples' work traumatized. In addition, we may come to marriage with our own unresolved trauma from life! How does unresolved or unprocessed trauma impact your neurodiverse marriage? We will be discussing that today with Dr. Karl Lehman.

About our Guest:
Dr. Karl Lehman is a board-certified psychiatrist with twenty-five years and more than 40,000 hours of clinical experience. He has worked tenaciously throughout his career to integrate his personal Christian faith with medical science, modern mental health care, and his rigorous scientific training. He has researched and worked especially to integrate faith-based emotional healing with insights provided by psychological and neurological research. Dr. Lehman is also deeply committed to his own growth and healing.
Dr. Lehman has been married for over 20 years to Charlotte, and he and Charlotte work as a team to apply everything they learn about growth and healing in the context of their marriage.
Author of Outsmarting Yourself and The Immanuel Approach.

 How to work with Jana: https://www.janamsmith.com/