Today I talk to Mathieu Ackermann, who is one of the shapers at Flathold, the other creative mastermind there being Manuel Hassler, whose name you will hear mentioned in this episode as well. But back to Mathieu. He is a fascinating subject because his shaping at Flathold combines a love for outdoor climbing with some formal art training and education, and all with an open embrace of what Mathieu calls the new school style of climbing and shaping. And speaking of that new school style, if you watched the Bern World Championships, you saw the unveiling of some clear, no-texture holds from Flathold. They made huge waves in the comp climbing world. So Mathieu and I talk all about the creation of those clear, no tex-holds, and we talk about how Flathold wasn't even sure if the IFSC would allow those holds to be used at the World Championships. There's a cool little story there. So let's jump into my conversation with Mathieu Ackermann at Flathold. Our host is John Burgman with music by Devin Dabney, and sponsors Approach and TRUBLUE.