The second half of our discussion on Plato’s Seventh Letter begins with a reading of Plato’s famous statement that he never published any statement of his opinions. That’s both the beauty and, for some, the frustration of Plato to his readers. The reason, as Michael Fitzpatrick states in our dialogue, is that Plato didn’t want to give us the answer key: “The only way your soul benefits is if these thoughts are born afresh in your soul, and you see the truth for yourself.” Plato weaves into his Seventh Letter much of the philosophy that he presented in his many dialogues, in particular that of the Republic, and one of the central questions of the Seventh Letter is “Can virtue be taught?” It’s a question that Plato also asked in the Meno, and we can see an answer from the Seventh Letter’s extraordinary account of his experience with the tyrannical rule of Syracuse by the tyrant Dionysius. Written to the supporters of the tyrant’s victim, Dion, and recounting his practical imprisonment by Dionysius on his third visit to the city, Plato admits that his attempts to teach virtue to Dionysius had failed. Is Plato saying virtue can never be taught? We don’t know his opinion on the matter, and that’s why he leaves the question hanging for us to consider.

In our first discussion on Plato's letters, we look at his best-known Seventh Letter. In the letter, Plato relates his experience with Dionysius, the tyrannical ruler of Syracuse, and the philosophically minded Dion was was persecuted by Dionysius. Plato's extraordinary recounting of his time teaching both Dionysius and Dion demonstrates his success with the latter, and failure with the former. There are many intriguing parallels between the situation in Syracuse 2,400 years ago, when Plato wrote, and the political and social environment in which we find ourselves today. Plato's account highlights the ills that befall a society whose rulers don't practise philosophy, and we see such rulers now, in the 21st century. The philosophical principles and observations about human nature that Plato expressed over two millennia ago remain relevant today, and in our next episode on the Seventh Letter we'll explore the age-old question "Can virtue be taught?"

What relevance do the principles and ideas of Plato's dialogues have for the modern, technologically-powered world of 8 billion people? In a wide-ranging discussion, James Myers and Michael Fitzpatrick address current social and political issues around the globe, relating them to the themes presented in a number of Plato's dialogues that include The Republic, The Laws, the Statesman, and the Meno, Questions of leadership, education, wealth, and social cohesion are raised, with some interesting suggestions for a path forward to the common good that was an abiding concern of Plato.

Those interested in Michael's writing on Plato and related subjects can visit "Plato for the Masses" at https://platoforthemasses.substack.com/.

Our final meeting on Plato’s longest dialogue, The Laws, concluded with readings from Book XII, where the Athenian expounds on the operation of a special Nocturnal Council that will act as the head and intellect for Crete’s new colony, Magnesia. On August 4, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups considered many of the key themes of The Laws, in discussing how the Nocturnal Council would guard the virtue of the colony, its leaders, and its citizens. The unique aim of Magnesia’s constitution to be a virtuous and peaceful community, unlike constitutional goals many modern readers would be familiar with, requires a unity of principles, harmony, and laws based on reason, which will be the task of the Nocturnal Council to ensure. This led to a recollection of our first two meetings on The Laws, where we began with Book X and its justification that Reason itself is in the very centre of the universe, and is something far older than the physical matter that surrounds our immaterial souls. In concluding the dialogue, are we left with reason to think that Magnesia will be successful? The answer may depend on the meaning of virtue: is virtue, as the Athenian earlier stated, “the general concord of reason and emotion” and, as Socrates stated in the Meno, the account of the reasons why? Perhaps with today’s increasing global discord, some solutions might be found in Plato’s final dialogue, The Laws.

Book XII is the final chapter of Plato’s longest and last dialogue, The Laws, and addresses the challenge of how a community can thrive when its leaders act against the collective interest. Having set out a novel constitution that promotes the virtue of citizens and leaders in Crete’s new colony, Magnesia, the three characters in the dialogue turn their attention to protecting the colony from vice that sometimes arises from the greed and self-interest of rulers. On July 21, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups met to consider the proposal discussed by the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta to implement an office of scrutineers to oversee Magnesia’s Guardians of the Laws. The proposed solution avoids an infinite regress of leaders overseeing other leaders by giving the independent scrutineers the power to review but not to legislate, and it further strengthens the colony’s virtue and peace with provisions governing ambassadors and guarding against foreign influence. Will their provisions be sufficient? In our next and final episode on The Laws, we’ll discuss the Nocturnal Council, which is an additional pillar the three characters will add to Magnesia’s constitutional framework to guard the Guardians.

Book XI of Plato's last and longest dialogue represents a dramatic shift in tone from Book X, where we began our series on The Laws eleven episodes ago. On July 7, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups convened to consider the thirty-three laws that the Athenian proposes to Clinias and Megillus for the regulation of trade and property in Crete's new colony, Magnesia. Some of the Athenian's laws are exceptionally harsh, including one that would allow a passer-by over the age of thirty to administer a beating with impunity to any seller in the market who quotes two different prices in a day for his goods. In this book, the Athenian is dramatically different from Book X and the previous books. Does Clinias, who is to be among Magnesia's first rulers, see any contradictions in what the Athenian proposes in Book XI? Has the Athenian been faithful to his previous assertion that all laws must be prefaced by a lengthy, reasoned preamble, or do his thirty-three laws on the distribution of wealth rely more on tradition and less on reason in the resolution of often extremely contentious disputes over property? Participants engaged in a spirited discussion on these and other questions, as we set the stage to complete The Laws in our next two episodes.

In our eleventh meeting on Plato's longest and final dialogue, we set aside Book VIII and moved from Book VII to read selections from Book IX. In Book IX, the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta address the practical questions of administering justice for those in Crete's new colony who might commit evil acts. On June 23, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups contributed thoughts to the approaches suggested by the Athenian, the first being that the laws should have preambles to persuade with reason those who might consider unjust acts. The analogy of a doctor having greater success treating a patient not just by prescription but also with education drew comments, as did the Athenian's conclusion that in certain cases the death penalty is warranted. The Athenian's philosophy that no one acts unjustly except against his will - that no one willingly does injustice - was another focus of the discussion. We began our series on the Laws with Book X, which presents Reason as central to the universe and the first cause of all physical things, and in Book IX the Athenian demonstrates the application of reason in confronting injustice.

In our series on Plato’s longest and last dialogue, The Laws, on June 9, 2024 members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups turned to Book VII. There, the three characters – the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta – discuss the raising of children in Crete’s new colony, Magnesia. They begin by exploring the harmony of the colony’s laws with the customs and habits of its citizens, then they discuss the instruction of children. The Athenian ends by explaining that appreciating the relationships of numbers and shapes can deliver understanding of our individual limitations and collective potential in the universe. Some intriguing ideas emerge with respect to motion: that a harmony of the immaterial soul and material body in the motions of dance and song dispel the disharmony of fear, that the gods love us as a child loves playing with its toys, that idleness leads to corruption, and that there is fundamental incommensurability in the motions of the universe centred on Reason, whose role is to moderate the frequent conflicts between needs and pleasures.

In Book VI of his last dialogue, The Laws, Plato has the Athenian, Clinias from Crete, and Megillus from Sparta discuss the governing structure for Crete’s new colony, to be called Magnesia. It’s a mixed system involving elements of democracy and monarchy, and one that places responsibility on every citizen to perform duty for the community and to choose the Guardians of the Laws through a rigorous system of vetting. On May 26, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups discussed the Athenian’s proposals for the government of the colony with a view to securing peace and instilling virtue in the citizens and rulers. Many intriguing questions were raised about the unique project of establishing a colony with no prior history, and Crete’s role was cast as that of a parent whose responsibility is to deliver its child, Magnesia, into the world while preparing to free the colony of its oversight so the community can flourish on its own.

In Book V of Plato’s Laws, only the unnamed Athenian speaks while the other two characters, Clinias from Crete and Megillus from Sparta, listen to his presentation on the power of the soul, harmony in human behaviour, and the just division of property for Crete’s new colony to be called Magnesia. On May 12, 2024, Plato’s Pod held its eighth meeting on Plato’s longest and last dialogue, with members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups participating. We began by listening to the Athenian’s compelling exposition on the nature of the soul as the master in us, with the body as its slave. The Athenian continues by explaining how the virtuous soul gains happiness by moderating pains and pleasures, and his proposition that the new community should be “purged” of those who cause disharmony provoked a discussion among the participants on questions of ethics and the distinction between religious and secular ethics and laws. Book V ends with the Athenian’s famous and curious proposal that 5,040 is the ideal population of a community. What did Plato, who sprinkled mathematics and geometry throughout his dialogues, intend to convey with this number?