Progressively Incorrect

By Zach GroshellEducation

Progressively Incorrect episodes

December 21, 2023 S3E4: Patrice Bain on “the room where it happened”
In this episode we’re delving into the inspiring tale of a real-life classroom, aka ‘The Room Where It Happened’. This unique researcher-teacher partnership, which was documented in the book Powerful Teaching, helped children not only to learn more effectively and efficiently by leveraging the science of learning, but it armed them with knowledge of how to learn. Our guest today is none other than Patrice Bain, the master teacher who orchestrated this endeavor from the chalk face.
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This episode is brought to you by John Catt Educational, which publishes some of the best books in education. This week I wanted to highlight a new book that I am excited to read, The Power of Teams: How to create and lead thriving school teams by Samuel Crome. The Power of Teams explores evidence from across sectors, including education, to find out what high-performing teams share, and how we can adapt the most effective teamwork strategies to the unique environment of a school. As an instructional coach who is responsible for helping my school’s PLC teams thrive, I am definitely going to be checking this one out.

Now please, sit back and relax for this wonderful episode about how to unleash the science of learning in your classroom with Patrice Bain.
Patrice’s Quick Reads and Links:
https://iste.org/blog/how-do-i-set-my-students-up-for-success
https://ies.ed.gov/blogs/research/post/an-example-of-the-unquantifiable-effect-of-research-on-practice
https://practices.learningaccelerator.org/insights/retrieval-practice-power-tools-for-instruction-ignited-research-insight
https://www.edsurge.com/news/2018-10-31-the-secret-to-student-success-teach-them-how-to-learn
https://blog.innerdrive.co.uk/cognitive-science-origins
51 min
December 13, 2023S3E3: Craig Barton and Ollie Lovell on tools and tips for teachers
Today I have the great pleasure of bringing you a very special episode featuring two of my podcasting rivals, Craig Barton and Ollie Lovell. This episode is brought to you by John Catt Educational, which publishes some of the absolute best books in education. In addition to publishing Craig’s How I Wish I’d Taught Maths, and Ollie’s Tools for Teachers, John Catt Educational has recently released an excellent instructional coaching book titled, “Maximizing the Impact of Coaching Cycles” by Gene Tavernetti.

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Takeaways
Standardizing entry and exit routines can improve behavior and create a calm and focused learning environment.
Holding high standards requires relentless precision and a commitment to excellence.
Obstacles to understanding, such as poor explanations and extraneous load, can hinder student comprehension.
Effective coaching and ongoing support are essential for sustaining high standards and improving teaching practices. Obstacles to understanding include kids not listening, lack of prerequisite knowledge, poor explanation from the teacher, extraneous load, not breaking things down in the explanation, unreliable check for understanding, ineffective response to the check for understanding, no opportunity to embed and consolidate the idea, and no opportunity to retrieve the idea.
Effective explanations should be clear, concise, and avoid unnecessary and irrelevant information. Teachers can use checks for listening to gauge the clarity of their explanations.
Gradual release of responsibility involves shifting from teacher-led instruction to student-led problem-solving. This can be achieved through six direct instruction shifts: emphasis on the learner’s role, transition from out loud to in their head problem-solving, shift from massed practice to distributed practice, shift from immediate to delayed feedback, transition from heavily prompted to unprompted problem-solving, and shift from simplified to complex contexts.
Self-explanation can be a powerful tool for meaningful learning and connecting new knowledge to prior knowledge. It is particularly effective when students can make unique connections based on their personal experiences and prior knowledge.
Pre-testing can be an effective learning strategy, but it may seem counterintuitive. It involves testing students on material they have not yet learned, which can enhance learning and retention.
The MAST (Massed and Spaced Testing) effect suggests that testing immediately after learning can be more effective for short-term retention, while spaced testing can be more effective for long-term retention. Pre-testing can improve learning outcomes by increasing attention and motivation.
Mass practice can be valuable before interleaving to build competence in a specific skill.
Interleaving is most effective when there is discriminative contrast between the concepts being mixed.
Similarity between interleaved concepts should also be considered to help students make connections.
Personal productivity can be enhanced by understanding individual preferences and routines.
Zach’s stuff
On Twitter, Zach is: @mrzachg
Zach’s blog: educationrickshaw.com
Zach’s podcast: educationrickshaw.com/category/progressively-incorrect
Ollie’s stuff
Sign up for Ollie’s newsletter here: edthreads.ollielovell.com
On Twitter, Ollie is @ollie_lovell
Ollie’s website is ollielovell.com
You can check out Ollie’s podcast, The Education Research Reading Room here
Ollie’s first book, Cognitive Load Theory in Action, is available from Amazon
Ollie’s second book, Tools for Teachers, is available from Amazon
Craigs stuff
Craig’s Patreon page at patreon.com/mrbartonmaths
You can sign up for Craig’s free Tips for Teachers newsletter and free Eedi newsletter
Craig’s online courses are here: craigbarton.podia.com
Craig’s books are “Tips for Teachers“, “Reflect, Expect, Check, Explain” and “How I wish I’d taught maths”
2 hr 2 min
November 27, 2023 S3E2: Amanda VanDerHeyden on the math wars and MTSS

Welcome back everyone to Progressively Incorrect. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell and, in this episode, we will be exploring the Math Wars and MTSS with Dr. Amanda VanDerHeyden.
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This episode is brought to you by John Catt Educational, which publishes some of the best books in education, including the brand-new USA Edition of Walkthrus, 5 Step Guides to Building Great Teaching by Tom Sherrington and Oliver Caviglioli. I’ve been using the Walkthrus books as an instructional coaching tool for several years, and this USA edition is sort of like the best of all three of the UK books compiled into one. It is a fantastic resource, and if you want to hear more about it from Tom and Oliver, I recommend you checking out my interview with them on the Season 3 premiere of this show.
So, without further ado, let’s head on over to this very amusing and fast-paced discussion with the always perceptive, Dr. Amanda VanDerHeyden.
Science of Math: https://www.thescienceofmath.com/
Spring Math: https://www.springmath.org/
Dr. Amanda VanDerHeyden is on Twitter/X
59 min
November 04, 2023 S3E1: Tom Sherrington and Oliver Caviglioli on instructional coaching
Welcome back to Progressively Incorrect. My name is Dr. Zach Groshell, and I have the great pleasure of welcoming Tom Sherrington and Oliver Caviglioli onto the podcast for the Season 3 premiere of this show.
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Tom and Oliver are two UK-based educators who have collaborated on numerous projects that I think have great value to teachers. These include Rosenshine’s Principles In Action, and the new USA edition of the popular WalkThru books, which will be in focus during this episode. I should probably apologize in advance for all the nerding out I do during this episode, but I just couldn’t help myself. These two gents have truly been instrumental in shaping not only my teaching, but my instructional coaching practice, and I felt truly honored that they took the time to come share their ideas on the pod.
Thank you to everyone who has been pestering me online to get started on this new season, and please keep sharing this podcast around to your friends and colleagues so we can spread the word that, well, explicit instruction isn’t all spooky and authoritarian, and that successful kids are happy kids. So, without further ado, please enjoy my chat with Tom Sherrington and Oliver Caviglioli.
59 min
April 30, 2023 S2E26: Dan Willingham on applying cognitive science to K12 education

I am very excited to be sharing this special episode with you, the Season 2 Finale of this podcast, featuring one of the most respected cognitive scientists in the world, Dan Willingham.

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Before we go over to Dan, I wanted to thank all of you who have supported me by tuning in this season. Unlike Season 1, which was formatted as a debate show between myself and my progressively incorrect friend, Bradley Arnold, Season 2 was all about the interviews. In total, I was able to interview 29 fabulous guests about their ideas and research, and meeting these giants of education was truly one of the most fulfilling experiences of my teaching career. While it’s true that I am taking a quick break from producing this show to focus on my paternity leave, fear not! Progressively Incorrect will be back on for Season 3 before you know it.
And for those of you who’ve been wondering where my friend Bradley went, I can assure you he is okay! One of Bradley’s life goals was to publish a book about his exotic travels and experiences, and I’m happy to report that he just did! Are Termites Kosher by Bradley Arnold is available now on Amazon, and I can’t wait to read it.
Now for this episode’s guest. Dan Willingham is a professor of psychology at the University of Virginia and a renowned expert on how cognitive science can be applied to K-12 education. He has authored several best-selling books, including “Why Don’t Students Like School?” and “Outsmart Your Brain,” and his work has been featured in major publications such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, and The Wall Street Journal. So, whether you’re a teacher, a parent, or just someone interested in education, this episode is sure to challenge your thinking and provide you with valuable insights into how people learn. Personally, I was blown away by this episode, and absolutely tickled that Dan was able to come on the show and make my dream for the Season 2 finale come true.

So, let’s dive in and welcome Dan Willingham to Progressively Incorrect!

1 hr 3 min
March 31, 2023 S2E25: Pamela Snow on early language and literacy skills
In this episode of Progressively Incorrect, I am joined by Dr. Pamela Snow. Dr. Snow is a professor of cognitive psychology at the School of Education at La Trobe University in Melbourne, and an absolute legend of the Science of Language and Reading.
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One of the most contentious topics in reading, besides how to teach it, is when to start teaching it. On one extreme, you have people who wish to protect childhood by delaying reading instruction for as long as possible, often invoking the age of 7 as an ideal starting point because that’s when they start in Finland. It’s only at the age of 7, or perhaps whenever the child first begins to show an interest in reading, that children are deemed “ready” for formal literacy skills training. Whether this formal training consists of systematic, explicit instruction or a balanced literacy approach is yet another topic of contention, but you can imagine that the same people who wish to prevent the imposition of “direct” or “structured” methods early in education are often in opposition to these methods even when the children turn 7.
Of course, I’m often told that there are people out there who believe in the opposite extreme; that we should be worried about all those pre-schools and pre-kindergartens that are forcing young children to sit in rows completing phonics worksheets. As someone who has visited dozens of early childhood centers, and who has several family members who are veteran early-childhood educators, I’m not sure that this second approach even exists, while the first seems to be widespread. To resolve some of this debate, I thought it would be great to bring Dr. Snow on the show to take us through what the research says about early childhood development of language and literacy skills. This episode is chock full of insights about how to best prepare and transition students from pre-literacy experiences to formal literacy instruction, and I was super honored to land such an important advocate for children and teachers on this show. Have a listen!
Dr. Snow’s Blog
Article: Psychosocial Adversity in Early Childhood and Language and Literacy Skills in Adolescence: The Role of Speech-Language Pathology in Prevention, Policy, and Practice
Article: SOLAR: The Science of Language and Reading
1 hr 3 min
March 16, 2023S2E24: Nidhi Sachdeva on microlearning with cognitive science principles
In this episode of Progressively Incorrect, I interview Nidhi Sachdeva, a Toronto-based PhD candidate who, like many of you I suspect, is exploring ways to embed the science of learning into teaching and professional development.
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I first came across Nidhi on Twitter, where she shares these amazingly digestible “Microlessons” about cognitive science topics such as interleaving, biologically primary vs. biologically secondary knowledge, and The Matthew Effect. Not only will Nidhi take us through the process of how she designs these punchy little Microlessons over the course of this episode, but afterwards you can try them out for yourself by clicking the links below – no log in required.
Microlessons:
Intro to Cognitive Load Theory – https://h5pstudio.ecampusontario.ca/content/44547
Is Multitasking Real? – https://app.7taps.com/DeBOiadJCvp
Study Techniques – What works and what doesn’t? – https://h5pstudio.ecampusontario.ca/content/45218
Role of background knowledge – https://h5pstudio.ecampusontario.ca/content/45598
Interleaving – https://app.7taps.com/qyV0cnajcd
All about retrieval practice – https://h5pstudio.ecampusontario.ca/content/45979
Biologically Primary and Secondary Knowledge – What does it mean for instruction? – https://app.7taps.com/mGQ5FO4EHN
Truth about learning styles – https://h5pstudio.ecampusontario.ca/content/44185
What’s so good about low-stakes quizzes? – https://h5pstudio.ecampusontario.ca/content/40390
Play enhances learning – Fact or myth? – https://h5pstudio.ecampusontario.ca/content/48108
Matthew Effect – https://app.7taps.com/N0mQiQYjud
I also wanted to invite listeners to attend a free webinar that I will be hosting at the end of March 2023 through the Australia-based organization, Think Forward Educators. This one is all about Rosenshine’s Principles and explicit instruction, and the presenters will be Bradley Busch – who you already know from a previous episode of this podcast – and Christie Barrett. Consider signing up no matter what timezone you’re in so you can gain access to the recording.
Sign up for webinar here
51 min
February 27, 2023 S2E23: Tracing Woodgrains on student loan forgiveness, tracking, and internet garbage

In this episode of Progressively Incorrect, I’m joined by Tracing Woodgrains. Trace is the Chief of Staff for Blocked and Reported, a show that bills itself as “a podcast about dumb internet garbage.” As someone who is unusually interested in the myths and mumbo jumbo of our dear teaching profession, I was honored that Trace was able dig himself out of the underbelly of the internet just long enough to record this episode about his investigations pertaining to education.
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This episode feels a bit more “journalism-y” than past episodes, as we’ll go through Trace’s reporting on topics ranging from the Biden administration’s policies surrounding student loan forgiveness, the evidence behind tracking and gifted programs, and our old friend, Project Follow Through. This was such a fun conversation to record and edit, so I’ll be quiet now and let you listen in to the fantastically insightful, Tracing Woodgrains.

Follow Trace on Twitter: @tracewoodgrains
And read Trace’s writing on his Substack
1 hr 10 min
February 13, 2023 S2E22: Adam Boxer on homework and building ratio
In this episode, I will be speaking to an absolute legend of teacher blogging and lefty-trad education, Adam Boxer.
Adam is the editor of the researchED Guide to Explicit and Direct Instruction, author of Teaching Secondary Science, and, for me, the LeBron James of practical advice about how to actually teach a lesson. After recent spats on Twitter about homework being super bad but letting kids learn with their phones being super good, it was highly refreshing to listen to Adam talk about strategies for gaining students’ attention and increasing everyone’s effort on their assignments.
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If you haven’t already, please hit subscribe and give Progressively Incorrect a 5-star rating. Enjoy!
Adam’s Blog and that one post on Ratio and the one on Four Planks of a Homework Policy
1 hr 14 min
February 06, 2023 S2E21: Marcy Stein on Engelmann’s direct instruction and Project Follow Through
I have a very special guest for you this week! Dr. Marcy Stein, professor emeritus and lead author of Direct Instruction Mathematics, came on the Progressively Incorrect podcast to talk to us about Project Follow Through and Zig Engelmann’s Direct Instruction programs.

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This is a fantastic episode that had me thinking about the importance of using well-designed instructional materials, and questioning the prevailing view in education that teachers should be instructional designers who plan lessons from scratch. Dr. Stein also goes into some of the common myths and misconceptions that people have around Direct Instruction, including that it is all lecturing, and the belief that scripted lessons take away the excitement of teaching. Dr. Stein is one of the OGs of Direct Instruction and I was extremely grateful to be able to ask her all of my burning questions about her area of expertise. Please hit subscribe, give Progressively Incorrect a 5-star rating, and check out Dr. Stein’s list of fabulous resources below.
Resources/Links from Dr. Marcy Stein:
National Institute for Direct Instruction (NIFDI)
YouTube – Direct Instruction: A Retrospective
YouTube – Direct Instruction Arithmetic (from 1966)
YouTube – The Science of Science Communication – National Academy of Sciences
David Klahr, PhD
AMAZON: Books about DI
Direct Instruction Reading
Direct Instruction Mathematics
Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons
BOOK: All Student Can Succeed: A Half Century of Research on the Effectiveness of Direct Instruction
ARTICLE: Stockard, J., Wood, T. W., Coughlin, C., & Rasplica Khoury, C. (2018). The effectiveness of direct instruction curricula: A meta-analysis of a half century of research. Review of Educational Research, 88(4), 479-507.
1 hr 4 min

About Progressively Incorrect

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Welcome to Progressively Incorrect, a podcast about the teacher-centered and the student-centered, the traditional and the progressive, in education. Hosted by Dr. Zach Groshell on…