A few years ago I accidentally hit a guy on the golf course. I'm not proud of it — although it did bank in almost perfectly off his calf on its way toward the hole. But the swing that caused it taught me something I haven't stopped thinking about: my brother told me to quit trying to kill the ball and just make good contact. Looking at podcasting, it turns into the best explanation I've found for why so many podcasts stop growing.

If you've ever chased a bigger download number, wondered why nobody signs up for the thing you're selling despite having a decent audience, or just felt like you're doing everything and getting nowhere, keep listening — because the fix isn't a bigger swing.

I talk to podcasters constantly who are chasing the same fantasy: flip a switch, get 10,000 downloads overnight. I get it — I've wanted that too. But it doesn't exist unless you've got a massive budget, and even then it doesn't always work.

Quick, honest question: who won American Idol season six? They had a million people watching. Doesn't mean you remember them, and it doesn't mean they connected.

Here's the math that changed how I think about this: if you ran your show as a $30-a-month membership, you'd only need one person willing to pay to break even (assuming you're spending $30/month). But not just any listener does that — it has to be someone connected to you. So the real target was never more downloads. It's finding roughly 500 right-fit people who trust you. Downloads don't join a membership.

Connected people do.

I study podcasters, but I also study musicians, authors, and YouTubers, because we're all in the same business — entertaining people with our art. One of my favorite channels right now is Mary Spender's. She's a musician, not a podcaster, but what she said recently hit me right in the chest:

"We've spent years treating streaming numbers as though they measure fandom, but perhaps they often measure familiarity instead. Millions of streams doesn't necessarily become hundreds of people willing to leave the house on a Wednesday evening. Maybe we've become incredibly good at measuring attention, but forgotten how to measure connection."

Swap "streams" for "downloads" and "tickets" for "memberships," and she's describing exactly what's happening in podcasting. Mary lost £12,000 on her last tour. Instead of giving up, she changed her approach: "Not to chase the biggest room, to chase the right room. Not to impress the most people, to matter to the people who choose to be there." Knowledge is knowing that. Wisdom is acting on it — and she is, booking her own shows again, more intentionally this time (And enjoying it more).

We've been brainstorming growth ideas in the School of Podcasting community, and the point was never to do all of them — it's to pick one, test it, and measure it. A few examples:

• Guesting on other podcasts that share your audience — less friction, since that audience already knows how to listen to a podcast.
• Podcast swaps, shout-outs, or a 30-second promo trade.
• Speaking engagements or workshops.
• Writing for a publication your audience already reads.
• Your own blog and SEO — no, it's not dead.
• Partnerships that go beyond sponsorship, where you actually help each other promote.
• Word of mouth — which drives roughly 70% of podcast growth, and yet almost nobody deliberately asks for it. Ask your audience, specifically and simply, to share the show with one friend.
• Local, unglamorous options: I used to slip a business card into a book on the page matching my age, in a genre my audience would read. Free. Slow. It worked, a little at a time.

None of these flip a switch. They're singles, not grand slams. You build an audience one person at a time.

Would you spend 5 minutes to get 36 people to your site each week?

Here's the part that surprised me. I started putting a click tracker (I use Switchy) on every link I post — social, LinkedIn, wherever. Takes about 41 seconds per link. What I found: my email list outperformed every social platform by double digits, while everything else stayed in single digits. One email drove 36 clicks in a week — times four weeks, that's potentially 144 people who might actually listen, follow, or tell a friend. And it cost me less than five minutes.

Would you spend 5 minutes a week to get 36 people to your site each week? Again, this is not the 10,000 switch. It's one strategy, and leaves you lots of time to try others.

The click isn't the whole story, though — a click is still just attention, the same thing Mary warned about. What matters is what happens after it: did that traffic turn into an email subscriber, a membership signup, a real connection?

Track that, and you'll quickly find out which platforms are worth your time and which ones you can quietly stop feeding. (If you want a free option instead of a paid one, Short.io does the same basic job.) So the "extra" time you spent using click trackers, you get back by identifying strategies that don't work for you.

In the early days of podcasting, Steve Stewart (Podcast Editors Academy) built recognition for years by simply leaving comments on other people's shows — for free. Eventually every show about podcasting seemed to mention him. Neil Veglio did something similar on Pod News Weekly Review, showing up consistently with sharp, specific insight until listeners started recognizing his name. Neither of them flipped a switch. They just kept showing up in the right rooms. I plan on doing some sort of collab with Neil in the future.

If you're just starting out and don't have an audience yet, go find where your future audience already hangs out — YouTube comments on a similar channel's most-viewed video, or Amazon reviews for books on your topic (skip the 5-star and 1-star reviews; the 4-star ones that explain what would've made it a 5 are where the real feedback lives).

And if you already have an audience: ask them directly what they want, more than once, and explain why it helps them to tell you. Track the link to your survey the same way you track everything else — if 12 people click but only 6 finish it, that's useful data too.

Hope is not a strategy. Neither is waiting for the 10,000-download switch — I've been looking for one since 2007, and it doesn't exist. Growth doesn't come from a bigger swing: more effort, more platforms, more reach. It comes from solid contact with the right people, and you won't know what's solid contact until you measure it.

If you want help building the kind of connection that actually turns into a membership, that's exactly what I do at School of Podcasting. Head to schoolofpodcasting.com and use coupon code LISTENER for a monthly, quarterly, or yearly subscription — backed by a 30-day money-back guarantee.

• School of Podcasting — https://schoolofpodcasting.com (coupon code: LISTENER)
• PodPage — https://podpage.com
• Switchy — Click tracker with lifetime one time payment. (aff)
• Short.io — https://short.io (free click-tracker alternative)
• Steve Stewart / Podcast Editors Academy — stevestewart.me
• Ask the Podcast Coach - Weekly live show with free podcast consulting.

Also mentioned by name on the episode, but no specific link was given on air — worth dropping in your own before publishing:

• Big Podcast Playbook (David Hooper)
• Pod Mastery (Neil Veglio)
• Buzzsprout (ad platform)
• Pocket Casts (app)

Mentioned In This Episode

Join the School of Podcasting Community

Profit From Your Podcast Book

Power of Podcasting Network

Dave's YouTube Channel

Dave's Podcasting Newsletter

Buy Dave a Coffee

Put Dave In Your Pocket

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Question of the Month

Mentioned in this episode:

Question of the Month: Constructive and Deconstructive Feedback

This month we are talking feefdback. What is the most constructive or deconstructive (or both) piece of feedback you've received. If you haven't asked for feedback, why not? I need your answer by September 25th (late entries won't be accepted) go to www.schoolofpodcasting.com/question and be sure to mention your show and your website address so I can link to it in the show notes.

Question of the Month

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Unlock Exclusive Insights: Subscribe to 'Podcasting Observations' Newsletter!

Get a look into the world of podcasting like never before with "Podcasting Observations," your go-to source for trends, tips, and transformative insights tailored just for podcasters. You also get "behind the scenes" info from the School of Podcasting

Podcasting Observations

Don't Wait to Level Up Your Show

Thinking about starting a podcast—or already 300 episodes in? Skip the rookie mistakes, save money, and level up your show with the School of Podcasting with Dave Jackson, where you get hands-on feedback, one-on-one support, and practical advice that actually improves your podcast. Not sure? Just ask Krista and Mark from practicalprepping.info

School of Podcasting

Give Your Podcast A Home

When you look at our podcasting pieces, your media host is the engine. But your website is the home.

Podpage

I got triggered at a podcasting conference last week, and honestly? I almost jumped out of my chair. Someone in the room said something that stopped me cold, and it's become one of the biggest lessons I'm bringing back to you this week — along with a story about a $230 million quarterback who won't take feedback, why "cheating off the smart kid" with AI is quietly ruining your podcast, and the subscription I found on my own bank statement that I'd been paying for and not even using. This episode is a mashup of my talk at Empowered Podcasting Conference 3 in Charlotte and everything I picked up just from being in the room. Let's get into it.

This is the one that made me want to stand up. Someone in a session said, "Well, I can't ask my guest to keep their answers short." Yes, you can. It's your show. If you're doing interviews, you're the goalie — it's your job to keep anything that doesn't serve your audience out of the episode. And if a guest rambles, that's usually on the host, not the guest. Give your guest a target before you hit record: who you're talking to, and whether you want short, medium, or long answers. A guest who doesn't get a target from the host should ask for one. Own your show. Set the boundaries. Your audience is who you're protecting.

My talk was about what makes a podcast good, and I focused on what makes any content remarkable. I walked through a few movies to prove it:

Saving Private Ryan — that D-Day opening wasn't new information (we all knew WWII was brutal), it was a new way of presenting it. People talked about it because nobody had seen it shown like that.

The Sixth Sense — a tiny budget that beat big blockbusters like The Lone Ranger because of one twist: we don't find out Bruce Willis's character is dead until the end. People walked out of the theater and called a friend to say "you have to see this." That's the goal — content remarkable enough that it spreads on word of mouth alone.

Gone with the Wind — a 1939 movie with an actual intermission, and people still talk about the burning of Atlanta (a real fire on the studio backlot, no CGI) and that last line — "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" — which had audiences clutching their pearls. Again, something people had not seen before.

Star Wars — I saw it eleven times as a kid, and even when half the theater had already seen it multiple times, everybody still cheered when the Death Star blew up. That's not just about the special effects. That's about how it made people feel.

A podcast episode is content plus delivery — and delivery is you: your attitude, your confidence, your life skills. My rule of thumb for what makes a good episode: laugh, cry, think, groan, educate, or entertain. Save them time or save them money. Try to hit more than one of those in every episode.

Everyone assumes the top skill is a great voice or being funny. It's not. It's your ability to listen — to your audience, and to feedback.

Case in point: The Cleveland Brown's quarterback, the one we paid $230 million despite a stack of off-field allegations. He's not good at his job. When fans booed him, his response was basically "you guys don't like me" — not "I need to get better," not "tell me more." He made it personal instead of taking it as information. I hear the same thing constantly from podcasters. I'll offer to help someone grow their show, ask which episode they want me to listen to, and they'll say "oh, it's not the content." If you're not willing to actually hear feedback, don't be surprised when your show doesn't grow.

This is the one I need you to sit with. There's a real strategy going around called the outlier strategy: if you and a competitor share an audience, and one of their episodes way outperforms their normal numbers, you make your own version of that topic. Legitimate strategy.

Here's where it goes sideways — people are grabbing the transcript of that outlier video, feeding it to AI, and saying "rewrite this in my voice." And the whole reason they're doing a podcast in the first place is to be seen as a thought leader — using someone else's thoughts.

It might work about 80% of the time (I'm making that number up), and that missing 20% is the part that's actually, uniquely you. Mark Maron said it best: "You're not thinking your own thoughts. You're a hack with an excuse for why you're failing."

I'm not anti-AI — I use it to organize my own brain dumps into an outline. But when you let it write the content, you get exactly what everyone else already sounds like.

Led Zeppelin became Kingdom Come became Greta Van Fleet. Cinderella became Girl School. The copy is never as good as the original, and eventually the audience notices.

Which brings me to a phrase I have to credit to YouTuber Aprillynne Alter, because she said it better than I could: protect your intuition. When you let AI do all your thinking, you never actually process the information — and you lose your gut instinct for what your audience needs. That's exactly why I watched every single Dolly Parton video myself for last week's episode instead of asking AI to summarize them. I wanted that information in my head, not just in the output.

Cheating off the smart kid might get you the grade. It won't get you the understanding.

I had a great conversation with email marketing expert Paul Gowder about this. I moved my main marketing list from Kit (formerly ConvertKit) over to Substack, and while my subscriber count is actually growing there, I can see in my stats that it's not driving nearly as much traffic to my website. Paul's question stopped me: "

What do platforms do once they get popular enough? They change the rules."

TikTok, Facebook, YouTube — every one of them eventually limits your reach to your own audience unless you pay up.

Email doesn't have an algorithm. Those are people who raised their hand and said "I want more." I'd rather have a 40% open rate on my newsletter than a meaningless "view" on YouTube.

And I export my list every single month just in case, because platforms can turn on you fast — there was a parenting podcast that got pulled off YouTube with zero warning, appealed to an AI system, got denied by that same AI, and only got reinstated after Podnews' James Cridland made it a public story. You don't want your show's survival to depend on someone shaming a platform into doing the right thing.

My buddy Ralph Estep Jr. — "the content creator's accountant" — gave the keynote, and his advice was simple: go look at your podcast's checkbook.

So I did. In five minutes I found I'd been paying $57 a month for an SEO mastermind I hadn't attended in ages, plus $10 a month for an email address I don't even use anymore. Close to $100 a month, gone, just from things I forgot to cancel. This is exactly why you want a separate bank account for your podcast — every charge in there is tied to something you're using for the show, and it makes the leaks obvious. If you need a separate account I use both Sofi and Acorns.

One more story from my talk. We all think if we buy the same mic or use the same host as someone successful, we'll get their results. It's not the gear. The band Extreme had guitarist Nuno Bettencourt, who idolized Eddie Van Halen his whole career — and finally got to play Eddie's actual rig, in front of Eddie. He was sure he'd finally sound like his hero. Instead, he said it was "so horrible," because he just sounded like himself. Same thing happened in early podcasting — we all bought the same expensive mic because we wanted to sound like a famous podcaster. Lean into being you. You're already very good at it.

A tiny, ultra-low-budget Chinese film (reportedly made for around $200 by a mother and son on an iPhone) got pulled from theaters and mocked online as one of the worst movies ever. The memes were brutal. And because everyone was talking about it, curiosity took over — it ended up making an estimated $9.3 million. Remarkable works both ways.

In episode 1049, I told you Spotify and YouTube signed onto a shared industry definition of what counts as a "view" or a "play." Well, weeks later, Spotify rolled out a button that lets listeners skip ads entirely, and YouTube quietly changed what counts as a view again — now just moving your mouse over a thumbnail can register as one.

Mark your calendar: in a month or two, expect YouTube to brag about some absurd new view count and hope everyone forgot they moved the goalposts. These are the partners we're all supposed to shake hands and build agreements with.

Big thanks to Mark Ronick, Rich, and Jason for putting on another great Empowered Podcasting Conference, and to everyone I got to hang out with in Charlotte.

Head to schoolofpodcasting.com and use the coupon code LISTENER for a monthly, quarterly, or yearly subscription — backed by a 30-day money-back guarantee. You'll get access to the courses, the community, and coaching. And if you want to catch every episode, follow the show at schoolofpodcasting.com/follow.

Research Links

• Empowered Podcasting Conference
• SOFI: Join Checking and Savings | You’ve been invited!
• Acorns Banking - Earn Interest, Teach Your Children about Finances
• Why No One Makes "Original" Videos Anymore
• Newsletters Part 2: How to Start a Newsletter Without Losing You…
• Want More Downloads? Ditch Social Media for Newsletters!
• Aprilynne Alter - YouTube
• A $200 Chinese Movie Just Became the Most Profitable Film in History
• Gone with the Wind Rant - Building a Better Dave

Mentioned in this episode:

Question of the Month: Constructive and Deconstructive Feedback

This month we are talking feefdback. What is the most constructive or deconstructive (or both) piece of feedback you've received. If you haven't asked for feedback, why not? I need your answer by September 25th (late entries won't be accepted) go to www.schoolofpodcasting.com/question and be sure to mention your show and your website address so I can link to it in the show notes.

Question of the Month

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Podpage Email Alerts

Podpage just launched a feature called Episode Alerts. It automatically emails your subscribers the moment a new episode goes live — no third-party email tool needed. When you publish, Podpage sends the email, links listeners straight to the episode, routes replies to your own inbox, and handles unsubscribes automatically. They also run every email address through validation and monitor bounces/spam complaints to protect your sender reputation.

Podpage

Get Some Feedback On Your Show

“Want honest, helpful feedback on your podcast? At the School of Podcasting, we host ‘Listening Parties’ where members share short clips and get constructive, encouraging critiques from fellow podcasters and myself.

School of Podcasting

Dolly Parton died on August 25, 2026, at age 80. While most tributes are focused on the music, this episode looks at something else entirely: Dolly Parton the businesswoman and entertainer. She sang at the Grand Ole Opry at 13 and was still building her empire seven decades later, which is rare in an industry where most acts have a five-to-ten-year run. As we like to say around here, success leaves clues, and Dolly left a lot of them. Below are 12 lessons pulled from her career, each one translated into something a podcaster can actually use.

In the late 1960s, a teenage Dolly landed a spot on the syndicated Porter Wagoner Show, earning $60,000 a year — by her own account, more money than she'd ever seen. She could have stayed comfortable as Porter's sidekick. Instead, she used the platform to build her name, and when she'd gotten what she needed from it, she left in 1974 to build something that was actually hers. Wagoner threatened to have her dropped from her label and later sued her; she ended up paying roughly $1 million to settle it, and the relationship took years to repair before the two eventually reconciled (American Songwriter, Cheat Sheet).

Why it matters for your podcast: your show builds relationships, those relationships create opportunities, and taking advantage of those opportunities (a guest slot, a speaking gig, a collaboration) is what grows your audience — which creates more relationships. It's a loop, and it only works if you actually act when the opportunity shows up.

You knew Dolly when you saw her. Her wig, the rhinestones, the exaggerated glamour, her boobs, wasn't an accident. She said she based it on the town's "tramp."

Dolly's response: I wanted to look like her. I thought she was beautiful. Her best line, "It costs a lot of money to look this cheap" says it all. When Barbara Walters pushed her on it in a 1970s interview, essentially implying she looked like a hillbilly, Dolly shot back that she might "kick her in the shin" and laughed the whole way through it.

Why it matters for your podcast: a distinctive brand gets you noticed once. Celebrity, a striking name, a bold visual that earns the first click. What earns the return listener is the talent and substance behind it. Dolly had both, and so should your show.

Dolly wrote "I Will Always Love You" in 1973 as a farewell to Porter Wagoner. When Elvis wanted to record it in 1974, his manager Colonel Tom Parker demanded the publishing rights as a condition for Elvis to record it. This was a standard (crappy) practice for an Elvis cut at the time.

Dolly said no, even though it was Elvis. Nearly two decades later, Whitney Houston's version spent 14 weeks at No. 1 and sold an estimated 20 million copies. Because Dolly still owned 100% of the publishing, that single song brought her roughly $10 million in royalties in the 1990s alone, and an estimated $20 million total from the Houston version according to Forbes (American Songwriter).

Why it matters for your podcast: As fellow podcaster Steve Stewart puts it, "Don't sell your audience to your sponsor, sell your sponsor on the value of your audience." The same logic applies to platforms: own your website, your domain, and your email list so no single network or app can take your audience away from you. It happens — YouTube pulled a top parenting podcast off the platform entirely (before reinstating it after public pressure). Dolly held onto her publishing because she knew the long game mattered more than a quick win. Hold onto your feed the same way. This is why an RSS feed is important. You can't be cancelled, and you can easily move to a new host if needed.

Long before a critic could land a joke, Dolly had already made it herself. On plastic surgery: "If I see something sagging, bagging, or dragging, I'm going to have it nipped, tucked, or sucked." Even the announcement of her passing carried her sense of humor forward, joking that she was finally ready to trade the rhinestones for something more comfortable.

Why it matters for your podcast: self-deprecating humor makes an audience like you more. If you can laugh at yourself — a mistake, dated gear, a rough first episode — listeners relax and warm up to you faster. Have fun with your show. Otherwise, you'll burn out on it.

Dolly reportedly slept in her makeup in case she had to get up in the middle of the night for an emergency, because she never wanted to be seen without it. More importantly, she was always, unmistakably Dolly be it on stage or off, in an interview or in a duet, across 70 years of performing. People who met her said what you saw on stage is exactly what you got in person.

Why it matters for your podcast: consistency isn't just about your publishing schedule (though that matters too) — it's about your output staying recognizably you. A listener who hasn't tuned in for six months should know exactly what they're getting the moment they hit play.

Dollywood already existed under a couple of generic names before Dolly bought into it in 1986. She didn't just license her name and collect a check — she built it to bring jobs to her hometown region in Tennessee, rooting the business in something true about her instead of something generic and scalable. Today it generates an estimated $180–580 million a year, with her stake alone valued around $165 million.

Why it matters for your podcast: plenty of celebrities slap their name on a generic product — a tequila brand, a theme park, a template — and it doesn't work because the "why" isn't real. If you're just copying someone else's show format and putting your name on it, it's probably not going to land. Know why you're actually doing this.

Secondly if you put your name behind it, it better be a positive reflection of you (think about this when it comes to sponsors). If you say a product is great, and your audience buys it and it's not, they won't buy anything else from you as your integrity is shot.

Dolly moved from country into pop in the '70s (9 to 5 and more), then made the bluegrass albums she couldn't make earlier in her career because they were "too niche" — as she put it, "I had to get rich so I could come back and sound poor" (BrainyQuote). She went into TV, movies, and near the end of her life a Broadway musical. It was based on her own story, for which she wrote much of the score (so you could say she liked to stay busy).

She initially tried to withdraw her name from Rock and Roll Hall of Fame consideration, saying she hadn't "earned that right," then was inducted anyway and leaned all the way in, dueting with Judas Priest's Rob Halford at the ceremony (Rolling Stone, Fox News). She later recorded "Please Please Please" with Sabrina Carpenter — a genre-crossing pairing where each artist's fans discovered the other (Rolling Stone).

Why it matters for your podcast: every new genre, format, or collaboration was still unmistakably Dolly. That's the model — try new things, but stay recognizably yourself. And notice the audience-sharing angle: pairing with an artist (or podcaster) who has an adjacent audience introduces you to people who'd never have found you otherwise. That's exactly what cross-promotion with a show in your niche can do for you.

When Dolly wrote and starred in the 1986 TV movie A Smoky Mountain Christmas, she knew the script and the performance were her strengths — but directing wasn't, so she brought in Henry Winkler (yes, the Fonz) to direct (Yahoo News).

Why it matters for your podcast: do the parts of your show you're genuinely good at and enjoy, and hand off the rest — editing, show notes, technical setup — to someone who does it better than you.

Despite her wealth, Dolly gave away enormous sums, saying she prayed for "enough to share and enough to spare." In 1995 she launched the Imagination Library in honor of her father, who couldn't read/ She mailing a free book every month to enrolled children from birth to age five. It grew from her home county to all of Tennessee, then the whole country, then the world: over 200 million books distributed, and she left money behind specifically so the program continues after her death (Imagination Library).

Why it matters for your podcast: giving back to your community isn't separate from growing your business — it's part of how the business grows. It's part of why I do "Ask the Podcast Coach" (a free live Q&A show) every Saturday morning: it's a way to give back to podcasters who aren't ready for one-on-one coaching yet, and it builds the kind of goodwill that turns casual listeners into a community.

Dolly was offered the Presidential Medal of Freedom multiple times by two different presidents from two different parties and turned it down each time, in part because she refused to be pulled into politics.

Asked directly by a reporter to weigh in on a president's comments, she responded: "I'm not addressing that. I do not get into that. Of course, I have my opinion about everybody and everything, but I learned a long time ago: keep your damn mouth shut if you want to stay in show business. I'm not in politics. I'm an entertainer."

Johnny Carson famously took the same stance during his run. She applied the same discipline to religion — when faith-based critics came after her, she turned their own scripture back on them, pointing out that judgment isn't their job.

Why it matters for your podcast: unless your show is specifically built around politics or religion (in which case, dig in and be ready to defend your positions), steering clear of hot-button topics protects the broad audience you've worked to build. If you do wade into something controversial, be prepared to answer for it — and using someone's own words against their argument, the way Dolly did, is about as effective a response as there is.

Dollywood, like any well-run theme park, is designed so you exit through the gift shop — there's no way around it. Dolly also took the "medieval dinner theater with jousting knights" concept and reworked it for her own audience with a north-versus-south twist, tailored specifically to who she knew would be sitting in the seats. This gave people multiple opportunities to purchase items.

Why it matters for your podcast: if you want your audience to join your email list, support you, or buy something, you have to put that option in front of them repeatedly and clearly. Podcasting doesn't have a forced gift shop; so the "ask" has to be intentional, and it helps to tailor it the way Dolly tailored her restaurant concept — built around who your specific audience actually is.

Not everything Dolly touched turned to gold. Her 1984 movie Rhinestone, where she was tasked with turning Sylvester Stallone into a singer, was a well-documented flop (SlashFilm). She didn't treat it as a career-ending disaster — she learned from it and moved forward.

Why it matters for your podcast: not every episode, format, or experiment is going to land. That's not a signal to quit — it's data. Learn from what didn't work and keep going.

I just heard that she pays for employees of Dollywood to go to college. You get this support the minute you clock in on day one.

As I watched all the videos (AI did the citations for me, but I write my own show notes), it finally came to me on why she stood out so much. It wasn't the wigs, the boobs, the outfits.

Yes, she was an amazing singer, and songwriter, and businesswoman. But she is something you don't see to much these days: she was an optimist.

Rest in Peace Dolly. See you later.

Mentioned in this episode:

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Question of the Month: Constructive and Deconstructive Feedback

This month we are talking feefdback. What is the most constructive or deconstructive (or both) piece of feedback you've received. If you haven't asked for feedback, why not? I need your answer by September 25th (late entries won't be accepted) go to www.schoolofpodcasting.com/question and be sure to mention your show and your website address so I can link to it in the show notes.

Question of the Month

Boost Four Followers by Eliminating Analysis Paralysis with Podpage

When people have too many options, they can fall into analysis paralysis and take no action. Podpage allows you to add ALL the apps to your website, and create ONE page with all of them, and then only display the most popular apps on your front page.

Podpage

Get Some Feedback On Your Show

“Want honest, helpful feedback on your podcast? At the School of Podcasting, we host ‘Listening Parties’ where members share short clips and get constructive, encouraging critiques from fellow podcasters and myself.

School of Podcasting

Everybody talks about growing their audience. Nobody talks about the number where they'd quietly give up.

This month's Question of the Month flips the growth conversation on its head: what's the smallest number of downloads that would keep you making your show — and if you dropped below it, would you quit, or try to fix it? The answers from School of Podcasting listeners are surprisingly close... and my answer might not be a number at all.

Also in this episode: a guest-pitch so bad it somehow involves a U-Haul dealership, and a heads-up on a booking-platform trick you'll want to know before you pitch yourself as a guest anywhere.

• This month's Question of the Month: what's your download floor?
• Steve Stewart says he'd think about quitting under 25 downloads an episode — but here's why he probably wouldn't
• Frank Bravo is already running on "10s" of downloads, and explains why that number doesn't bother him
• Ralph Estep Jr. went from 20 downloads to over 1,000 — but what actually keeps him going isn't the number
• Dave's answer: which of his 30+ podcasts he let die, which ones he kept, and why it's rarely about the download count
• The 6-episode survey test — how to know if it's time to change your show or just accept where it's at
• Scott Johnson (What Was That Like) shares the worst guest pitch he's ever received
• A warning about how some guests are gaming booking platforms like PodMatch — and how to vet who you let on your show

• School of Podcasting — use code LISTENER for a discount on monthly, quarterly, or yearly plans
• PodPage — this episode's sponsor
• Steve Stewart — Podcast Editor Academy / Podcast Editors Mastermind
• Frank Bravo — Your Tech Makeover
• Ralph Estep Jr. — ralphestepjr.com / new show: Becoming Financially Confident (launching Aug 31)
• Scott Johnson — What Was That Like
• York - Welcome to Earth Stories
• PodMatch
• PodcastGuest.com
• Pitch a Podcast
• Building a Better Dave
• Marketing Musician
• Weekly Web Tools
• New To Cooking

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Mentioned in this episode:

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Question of the Month: Constructive and Deconstructive Feedback

This month we are talking feefdback. What is the most constructive or deconstructive (or both) piece of feedback you've received. If you haven't asked for feedback, why not? I need your answer by September 25th (late entries won't be accepted) go to www.schoolofpodcasting.com/question and be sure to mention your show and your website address so I can link to it in the show notes.

Question of the Month

Podpage Email Alerts

Podpage just launched a feature called Episode Alerts. It automatically emails your subscribers the moment a new episode goes live — no third-party email tool needed. When you publish, Podpage sends the email, links listeners straight to the episode, routes replies to your own inbox, and handles unsubscribes automatically. They also run every email address through validation and monitor bounces/spam complaints to protect your sender reputation.

Podpage

Join the #1 Podcast Education Site - The School of Podcasting

Adam Curry is the co-founder of Podcasting (and the co-host of the No Agenda Show). When asked about learning how to podcast Adam said, "The place to go with the guy who has taught more people how to podcast than anybody I know - Dave Jackson, School of Podcasting.com"

School of Podcasting

Episode Description:

I break down YouTube’s latest changes to its Partner Program, including doubled watch-hour requirements and higher Shorts monetization thresholds ahead of the February 2027 deadline. I also bring in YouTube expert Adam Ivey’s take on why the real story isn’t necessarily the new criteria, and I share my own channel’s numbers so you can set realistic expectations for your own YouTube journey.

Then the AI kids stop by for story time as I take a look at Spotify’s decade-long history of making big podcasting promises—and quietly failing to deliver on them. From a scrapped hosting partnership to a Creator Fund that never paid a cent, there’s plenty to unpack.

Plus, Ray Ortega drops by with the shortest—and most accurate—definition of “podcast” you’ll ever hear.

YouTube Partner Program (YPP) changes, effective February 1, 2027

• Watch-hour requirement doubles: 4,000 to 8,000 hours in the past year (new creators only; existing YPP members are grandfathered in)
• Shorts monetization threshold doubles: 10 million to 20 million qualified views in 90 days to get in, then a rolling 10 million views every 90 days to maintain earnings
• Full monetization tier: 1,000 subscribers, $100 payment threshold
• Lower tier (500 subscribers): unlocks YouTube Shopping (affiliate) and channel memberships, requires 3,000 watch hours or 3 million Shorts views

The real story behind the changes

• Adam Ivy's stat: 67% of YouTube creators make less than $10,000/year
• YouTube's stated pivot: broadening revenue beyond ads, with bonuses for YouTube Shopping, brand-deal incentives, and trend-based earning boosts
• YouTube says it expects to pay creators more in 2027 than 2026: money is shifting, not shrinking
• Steve Stewart (Podcast Editor Academy): "Don't just sell your audience to sponsors, sell sponsors on how great your audience is"

Is YouTube worth it? The data

• Sounds Profitable's Podcast Atlas (slide 23): Clips lead viewers to watch a specific episode (30% often/always, 81% at least sometimes) and to become regular listeners (33% often/always, 84% at least sometimes)
• Dave's real channel numbers: 3,523 subscribers, ~$2.49 per 1,000 views, one video with 115 views earned 25 cents
• Bottom line: YouTube ad revenue is icing, not cake. Don't budget groceries on it

• May 2015: Spotify launches podcasts through a small group of hosting "partners" (Libsyn, Blubrry), framed as a growth opportunity, not monetization
• Spotify initially insists on hosting the media files itself rather than letting partners host. Partners build custom engineering to comply, then Spotify reverses course
• 2019: Spotify buys Anchor for $150 million, turning former hosting partners into competitors overnight, with free hosting
• Spotify quietly submits shows to Apple Podcasts under its own account, hiding stats from creators and sparking creator frustration (often aimed at consultants, not Spotify)
• 2020: Megaphone acquired for $235 million. 2021: Whooshkaa acquired and folded into Megaphone, then shut down
• 2021: Betty Labs acquired, becomes Greenroom (Spotify's Clubhouse competitor)
• 2021: "New Era of Podcast Monetization": paid subscriptions, Open Access Platform, Spotify Audience Network announced
• Mid-2021: Greenroom launches with a Creator Fund promised for live audio creators. Payment mechanics never disclosed
• 2021: Music + Talk announced ("play music in your podcast"), restricted to the Spotify app, paying subscribers only, after listening to the full episode
• September 2021: Q&A and Polls launch, pitched as "the future of podcasting is interactive"
• January 2022: In-house production studio "Studio Four" shut down with layoffs
• April 2022: Greenroom rebrands to Spotify Live; Creator Fund confirmed to have never launched, quietly shelved
• March 2023: Anchor rebranded to Spotify for Podcasters
• April 2023: Spotify Live shut down entirely, two years after the original Greenroom launch
• February 2024: Music + Talk and Anchor's recording tools killed; users redirected to Riverside
• July 2024: Q&A and Polls shut down, replaced with Comments
• Spotify's "walled garden" habits: video and transcripts only available on Spotify, resistance to RSS since it sends listeners off-platform
• 2026: Skip Ahead ad-skipping button testing begins, available only to Premium subscribers, while advertisers still pay for the ad
• Audiobooks added, bundled with music, resulting in lower royalty payments to musicians

What it actually takes to make money on Spotify

• 1,000 Spotify audience members (last 30 days)
• 2,000 Spotify hours consumed (last 30 days)
• At least 3 published episodes
• Free alternatives exist too: Buzzsprout (90 days free), RSS.com, Red Circle

Also in this episode:

• Ray Ortega's shortest definition of a podcast: "An RSS feed with audio or video content"
• Dave will be at the Empowered Podcasting Conference. Say hello if you see him

Links:

Podnews (the definitive investigative piece): https://podnews.net/update/greenroom-creator-fund-mirage

Hollywood Reporter (original confirmation): https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/spotify-greenroom-creator-fund-live-audio-1235132234/

TechCrunch (Spotify's official statement): https://techcrunch.com/?p=2302547

Tubefilter (stock price angle): https://www.tubefilter.com/2022/04/19/meta-live-audio-rooms-spotify-green-ro

Spotify's own support doc: https://support.spotify.com/al/creators/article/understanding-skip-ahead-button/

Podnews (the deepest industry-side reporting): https://podnews.net/article/spotify-threat-ad-skipping

Hollywood Reporter (advertiser reaction): https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/spotify-new-ad-skipping-feature-1236670480/

Forbes (scale/downloads context): https://www.forbes.com/sites/gabrielalinzainescu/2026/08/10/spotify-tests-ad-skip-button-that-could-upend-podcast-advertising/

Variety (original 2024 reclassification): https://variety.com/2024/digital/news/spotify-music-audiobook-bundle-lower-royalty-for-songwriters-1235974942/

Music Tech (MLC lawsuit filed): https://musictech.com/news/industry/spotify-royalties-lawsuit-audiobook-bundling/

Music Business Worldwide ($3.1bn NMPA projection): https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/nmpa-says-spotify-bundling-move-could-cost-music-publishers-3-1bn-through-2032/

Music Business Worldwide (lawsuit dismissed): https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/spotify-wins-audiobook-bundling-lawsuit-as-court-dismisses-legal-action-brought-by-the-mlc/

Variety (ruling coverage w/ judge's quote): https://variety.com/2025/music/news/spotify-wins-lawsuit-bundling-royalties-1236289823/

Time (FTC complaint, $150M NMPA estimate): https://time.com/6988114/spotify-songwriters-ftc-complaint-royalties-audiobooks-bundle/

Digital Music News: https://www.digitalmusicnews.com/2024/02/09/spotify-is-shutting-down-music-talk-music

Podbean blog, on the March 2023 rebrand: https://blog.podbean.com/anchor-vs-podbean-podcast-hosting-alternative/

TechCrunch, shutdown of Spotify Live: https://techcrunch.com/2023/04/03/spotify-is-shutting-down-its-live-audio-app-spotify-live/

Hollywood Reporter, Creator Fund never launched: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/digital/spotify-greenroom-creator-fund-live-audio-1235132234/

Variety: https://variety.com/2021/digital/news/spotify-acquires-whooshkaa-podcast-1235135217

EIN Presswire (official press release text): https://www.einpresswire.com/article/558559979/spotify-announces-acquisition-of-podcast-technology-platform-whooshkaa

Spotify Newsroom, original launch: https://newsroom.spotify.com/2021-09-30/podcasts-get-interactive-with-new-qa-and-polls-features/

MIDiA Research, on the Comments replacement: https://www.midiaresearch.com/blog/why-comments-on-spotify-podcasts-are-more-about-youtube-than-community

Spotify Newsroom, "New Era of Podcast Monetization": https://newsroom.spotify.com/2021-04-27/spotify-ushers-in-new-era-of-podcast-monetization-with-new-tools-for-all-creators/

PhoneArena, Substack/Open Access Platform coverage: https://www.phonearena.com/news/spotify-substack-partnership_id157238

Podnews, "Breaking: Spotify buys Gimlet... and Anchor": https://podnews.net/update/spotify-gimlet-anchor

Nieman Lab, "Anchor too?": https://www.niemanlab.org/2019/02/anchor-too-with-a-second-big-acquisition-spotify-shows-its-serious-about-podcasts-as-both-producer-and-platform/

Music Business Worldwide, exact deal figures ($154M Anchor): https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/spotify-has-acquired-three-podcast-companies-this-year-total-cost-404m/

Forbes, Hot Pod/Ashley Carman quote on Spotify vs. YouTube: https://www.forbes.com/sites/johanmoreno/2022/02/18/spotify-acquired-two-major-podcast-technology-companies-youtube-should-be-concerned/

TechRadar (skips even Spotify's own promo messaging): https://www.techradar.com/audio/spotify/spotify-quietly-added-a-button-to-skip-ads-in-podcasts-except-for-its-own-promotional-content-and-its-sparked-widespread-concern-for-the-future-of-podcasting

Research Links

• Introducing the next era of monetization on Spotify
• Changes to the YouTube Partner Program - YouTube Blog
• What is a Podcast? - Ray Ortega
• The Podcast Atlas: A Map of the Creator Ecosystem - Sounds Profitable

Mentioned in this episode:

What Does Worry Free Podcasting Look Like?

It means not having to worry about buying the wrong equipment.

School of Podcasting

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Podpage Email Alerts

Podpage just launched a feature called Episode Alerts. It automatically emails your subscribers the moment a new episode goes live — no third-party email tool needed. When you publish, Podpage sends the email, links listeners straight to the episode, routes replies to your own inbox, and handles unsubscribes automatically. They also run every email address through validation and monitor bounces/spam complaints to protect your sender reputation.

Podpage

Question of the Month: The Smallest Amount of Downloads

We all want a bigger audience. We all put a lot of work into our shows. With this in mind, what is the smallest amount of downloads you would do the show for? If it drops below a number would you stop, or put effort into finding out why?

School of Podcasting

Today I'm talking with Glenn Hebert and Jamie Jennings from Horses in the Morning, the flagship show of the Horse Radio Network. They just crossed 4000 episodes, and since they're doing this daily, I had a ton of questions for them. Mainly: how do you keep your sanity?

Glenn has been on this show more times than any other guest, and I'll drop links to a few of those past conversations below. We also talk about how "Glenn the Geek" became a verb around here. I cut in a few times throughout the episode to riff on some of what we discussed, so stick around for that too.

• Segments (not just guests) are what let a daily or frequent show survive without constantly reinventing the wheel.
• A real community needs a place to talk to each other, not just a place to listen to you.
• Feedback from your most invested listeners (not just anyone) should shape what you keep and what you cut.
• You're making the show for the 80% who like it, not the 20% who don't.
• If you're trying to make money at this, budget 10-12 hours of work for every hour that airs.

Jamie's husband asked her, before episode one, what she was even going to talk about after two weeks of a horse podcast. Sixteen years and 4000 episodes later, that question still makes her laugh. Glenn books guests only a week or two out, and most of the show's four or five segments per episode get planned the morning of. Being daily is actually their advantage: they can be timely in a way most podcasts can't.

Glenn admitted he basically is the show-prep service. Google Alerts and AI help him find stories faster than they used to, but the instinct for what's worth talking about still comes down to two to three hours of prep every single morning.

Jamie is the storyteller. Glenn plays the guy reacting to it. He described their pre-show routine: Jamie says she's got a two-to-five-minute story, and he already knows it's going to stretch to twenty minutes and he'll happily let it. That contrast, he said, is what makes the show work.

I've got segments on this show too (if you've got a favorite segment idea, feel free to send it in). One of mine is built entirely out of "this happened because I have a podcast." I used to do a "last five in five" segment where I'd share the last five things I listened to in under five minutes. Segments are useful because they don't all have to show up in every episode. When I don't have a big topic, I create a "podcast stew," a handful of small segments squeezed together. Takes the pressure off having to fill a big block of time. An episode just needs to be as long as it needs to be, and not a minute more.

Glenn says their community basically built itself once Patreon entered the picture around nine or ten years ago. One of their own listeners asked if she could start a private Facebook group for supporters, and it's grown into 30+ subgroups on everything from dogs to mental health, plus in-person meetups they run themselves.

Glenn's take, and I completely agree: the biggest mistake podcasters make when they say they want "community" is giving people no actual place to talk to each other. A community needs a room. You don't have a true community until they can talk to each other.

They get supporters directly involved too, birthdays shouted out on air, segment material submitted by listeners themselves. If your audience made the content, you already know they're going to like it.

Jamie and Glenn have given away more than $80,000 in prizes over 16 years, largely funded by sponsors who get a bit of airtime in exchange for product. Those relationships often graduate into full paid sponsorships once the brand sees it works.

That reminded me of Mark from Beyond Bourbon Street, a past guest of mine (episode 829) who had Two Chicks Walking Tours as a sponsor, then had listeners telling him in his own community that they'd taken the tour and loved it. That's the kind of proof that makes a sponsorship renewal conversation easy. And speaking of sponsors sticking around, I was listening to The New Media Show recently and they mentioned Todd Cochran had GoDaddy as a sponsor for around 21 years.

This one floored me. On top of their broader Patreon community, Glenn and Jamie run a rotating focus group of 12 listeners every six months whose entire job is to comment on every single episode. Every episode gets six to twelve honest responses.

That feedback has actually killed segments. They ran an "animal psychics" bit for a while that they personally enjoyed, but the negative response outweighed the positive, so it's gone. If you're going to ask your paying supporters for their opinion, you have to actually be willing to act on it.

Glenn's rule, learned from ten years running an improv theater company: about 80% of any audience likes what you do, and 20% doesn't. That ratio doesn't change. You're not making the show for the 20%. You're making it for the 80%, and Glenn pointed out the harder truth: a chunk of that 20% keeps listening anyway, seemingly just to be annoyed. Let it go.

Jamie added that after the true fans and the negative Nellies, there's a middle group whose feedback is the most useful because it's the most honest.

Right before hitting 4000 episodes, they surveyed listeners on favorite segments. The winner, by a wide margin: pure host banter, just Glenn and Jamie talking about nothing. Their biggest listener complaint over the years has actually been "too many guests." As Glenn put it, people come for the content and stay for the hosts.

Glenn's advice for a new podcaster wondering when the money shows up: niches make it easier. Horse people, in his words, are some of the most dedicated hobbyists out there, and that's true of plenty of other niches too (cycling, golf, you name it). Small and mid-sized brands without their own ad agencies are the sweet spot, and Glenn's found 80% of his sponsors by showing up in person at trade shows and introducing himself at every booth. He's been to 38 of them.

Their own listener survey backs this up: 80% of listeners said they'd bought a product because Glenn and Jamie talked about it on air in the last year. Only 25% said the same about a banner ad. Trust is the entire business model.

When you're sick, you address it up front. Ignoring it doesn't work, because that's all the listener will focus on anyway. Same goes for a loud remote recording location. Be real about it and people roll with it, sometimes they even prefer it.

One detail that stuck with me: Jamie trains off-the-track thoroughbreds and has personally placed horses with listeners in 18 different states just by mentioning them on the show. That's community turned into real-world impact.

A few things I wanted to add once the mic was off:

Contact info matters more than you think. Always tell people how to reach you. For me that's schoolofpodcasting.com/contact. Someone recently told me they'd left a comment on my Substack and had no idea if I'd seen it, because I hadn't told them how I check for those.

Where to find ideas, beyond hanging out with your audience the way Glenn does: Google Alerts will tell you anytime a topic (or your name) gets mentioned online. Answer the Public shows you what people are actually typing into search around a topic. Or just Google your topic and scroll down to "People Also Ask."

On Podcast Movement: I wasn't selected to speak this year, which is the first time that's happened after speaking at every single one. Disappointing, sure, but I'll still be there to say hi, and I'll have more free time than usual. I am speaking at the Empowered Podcasting Conference in Charlotte, NC, and at PodIndy in November.

Lesson learned: if a voting campaign like this comes around again, I'm rallying the troops early instead of assuming people will remember on their own.

On working with AI: I'm deep into learning Claude and all the "co-worky" automation stuff right now, and I'll be the first to admit I don't know what I don't know. I've been leaning on School of Podcasting members who are further along with it, including Craig from AI Goes to College and John Jamingo from Boomer Bunker.

If you're not doing audience surveys, that's its own version of not knowing what you don't know, and if you're not sure whether your audience is engaged, their silence on a survey is usually the answer.

• Making a Living Talking About Horses
• Learn How You Can Help Others by Sharing Your Abilities with Glenn Hebert

Starting August 19th, we're running two live classes. Podcasting in Six Weeks is back, and it's free this time, for anyone who hasn't launched a show yet: schoolofpodcasting.com/sixweeks. And for members, we're running a live Growing Your Audience course together, tracking your download numbers before and after: schoolofpodcasting.com/growcourse. Use the coupon code listener when you sign up for a monthly, quarterly, or yearly School of Podcasting membership.

What's the smallest audience size you'd still do your show for? Would you quit if it dropped below that, or dig in to find out why? Send your answer to schoolofpodcasting.com/question by August 28th, and include your show name and website so I can link to you in the notes.

I'm Dave Jackson. I help podcasters. It's what I do.

Until next week, take care, God bless.

Class is dismissed.

Research Links

• AnswerThePublic by Neil Patel: Keyword Research & Content Ideas
• Google Alerts - Monitor the Web for interesting new content
• How a Travel Podcast Survived Covid with Mark Bologna - Beyond Bourbon Street

Mentioned in this episode:

Take Live Classes at the School of Podcasting

Podcasting in Six Weeks is BACK! (and this time it's free!)

School of Podcasting

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Question of the Month: The Smallest Amount of Downloads

We all want a bigger audience. We all put a lot of work into our shows. With this in mind, what is the smallest amount of downloads you would do the show for? If it drops below a number would you stop, or put effort into finding out why?

School of Podcasting

Podpage Email Alerts

Podpage just launched a feature called Episode Alerts. It automatically emails your subscribers the moment a new episode goes live — no third-party email tool needed. When you publish, Podpage sends the email, links listeners straight to the episode, routes replies to your own inbox, and handles unsubscribes automatically. They also run every email address through validation and monitor bounces/spam complaints to protect your sender reputation.

Podpage

If you look at movies that you love, and you think about them, and you remember how they made you feel. Today we talk about three things you can have in your tool belt to use in your show to not just have something to listen to, but to have content that moves your audience. We also answer the question what do Sportcasters, Movie Reviewers, and Christians all have in common?

Most podcasters focus on information—tips, tactics, and how‑tos. But your audience doesn’t connect to information first; they connect to emotion first.

• Nostalgia
• Storytelling
• Vulnerability

As the old saying goes, "with great power comes great responsibility," so how do we use these ingredients in our show without sounding like we starting the sympathy engine just to grab attention?

They are all working with the same source material. The same bible (more or less), the same movies, the same games. In this episode we talk about how to make your show stand out?

I've read MANY books on storytelling, but Storyworthy by Matthew Dicks is the best - period. The audiobook is so good you will want to listen with a pad and pencil to take notes (or if you're loving in 2026, take notes on your phone).

Podcasting in Six Weeks

Mentioned in this episode:

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Question of the Month: The Smallest Amount of Downloads

We all want a bigger audience. We all put a lot of work into our shows. With this in mind, what is the smallest amount of downloads you would do the show for? If it drops below a number would you stop, or put effort into finding out why?

School of Podcasting

Take Live Classes at the School of Podcasting

Podcasting in Six Weeks is BACK! (and this time it's free!)

School of Podcasting

What if one book could change the way you tell stories, connect with your audience, or even see your own podcast? In this episode of the School of Podcasting, I asked a simple question: “If you found out someone was a content creator, what book would you recommend?” — and the responses were pure gold.

You’ll hear from working podcasters, educators, business owners, and storytellers sharing the books that sharpened their craft, grew their communities, and kept them going when numbers and algorithms tried to wear them down. Along the way, I share my own must‑reads and pay tribute to a podcasting legend whose work shaped an entire generation of creators. If you’re ready to level up your show — not with more gear, but with better thinking, storytelling, and heart — this is the episode you’ll want to queue up next.

Kim Newlove

The Pharmacist Voice Podcast

The Perrysburg Podcast

Ralph Estep Jr.

The Content Creators Accountant

https://ralphestepjr.com

Chris Nessi

House of EdTech

Mark Lawley

Practical Prepping Podcast

Nancy May (with co‑host Sylvia France)

Family Tree Food Stories Podcast

Dave Cohen

The Shakespeare Mindset

Tom Haley

Bluegrass Region Voices and Views

Find Your Red Thread: Make Your Big Ideas - Tamsen Webster

The Audience Is Listening: A Little Guide to Building a Big Podcast – Tom Webster

How to Win Friends and Influence People - Dale Carnegie

Sacred Cows Make the Best Burgers – Robert J. Kriegel, David Brandt

12 and a Half: Leveraging the Emotional Ingredients Necessary for Business Success – Gary Vaynerchuk

Acres of Diamonds – Jentezen Franklin

Hello, My Name Is Awesome: How to Create Brand Names That Stick – Alexandra Watkins

Into the Woods: A Five-Act Journey Into Story – John Yorke

Build a Strong Podcast: From Creation to Captivated Audience – Jennifer Longworth

Make Noise: A Creator’s Guide to Podcasting and Great Audio Storytelling – Eric Nuzum

Storyworthy: Engage, Teach, Persuade, and Change Your Life Through the Power of Storytelling – Matthew Dicks

Platform: Get Noticed in a Noisy World – A Step-by-Step Guide for Anyone with Something to Say or Sell – Michael Hyatt

Big Podcast: Grow Your Podcast Audience, Build Listener Loyalty, and Get Everybody Talking About Your Show – David Hooper

So You Want to Start a Podcast: Finding Your Voice, Telling Your Story, and Building a Community That Will Listen – Kristen Meinzer

Out on the Wire: The Storytelling Secrets of the New Masters of Radio – Jessica Abel

Beyond Powerful Radio: A Communicator’s Guide to the Internet Age – Valerie Geller

Secrets of Dynamic Communication: Prepare with Focus, Deliver with Clarity, Speak with Power – Ken Davis

Sponsor Magnet – Justin Moore

Profit from Your Podcast: Turn Your Listeners into a Livelihood – Dave Jackson

Looking for more books on podcasting? Check here

The Grief Recovery Handbook: The Action Program for Moving Beyond Death, Divorce, and Other Losses (20th Anniversary Expanded Edition) – John W. James, Russell Friedman

John was an amazing broadcaster. More thoughts on John's Impact.

Mentioned in this episode:

Build the Website You Want with Podpage

Podpage is flexible. If you want to promote something you can put it in the sidebar, on the front page, or at the bottom of every episode (not to mention the navigation bar, the footer and more). Podpage is designed specifically for podcasts. Quit trying to squeeze your podcast into a website made for a yoga studio. Start your free trial at podpage.com/preview

Podpage

Black Friday Podcasting Sepcial

Hey, podcast creators! Are you ready to take your podcast to the next level? We have an unbeatable deal just for you!

Podcast Hotseat

Question of the Month: The Smallest Amount of Downloads

We all want a bigger audience. We all put a lot of work into our shows. With this in mind, what is the smallest amount of downloads you would do the show for? If it drops below a number would you stop, or put effort into finding out why?

School of Podcasting

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

When your CPMs start shrinking and programmatic ads feel like a losing game, it’s easy to wonder if podcasting is still worth it. In this episode, I want to show you a different path—one that doesn’t depend on ad tech behaving itself. I’m going to walk you through why community beats downloads, how smart feedback (like what Jack Rhysider does) can radically improve your show before it ever launches, and how simple tools like newsletters and Podpage can help you build a deeper relationship with your audience so your podcast is future‑proof, no matter what happens to ad rates.

I heard it from on the Podbiz Show. Hall of Famer Leo Laporte shares a bit of history with ads, and Podfather Adam Curry explains how to future-proof your podcast. Brian Barletta explains how we need to move on from trying to get stats that are not possible, and focus on growing the industry.

I also talk about how I was inspired by writer Talyor Sheridan cold care less about the critics. He write the way he wants to write, about what he wants to write about and now his audience has found him and he is making a killing.

Geddy Lee has been performing in the band Rush for 50+ years and yet he still takes time to evaluate his playing. When we try to market "Meh" content we are wasting our time.

Sounds Profitable has released the Podcast Atlas Report which approaches the industry from the creators point of view. Some great insights into clips, newsletters, and more.

This content may contain affiliate links, meaning I earn a small commission if you purchase through these links at no additional cost to you. I only recommend products or services I trust and believe will provide value to you. Thank you for your support!

• If you're feeling stuck with your podcast due to falling ad revenues, listen up!
• Forget chasing ad dollars; focus on building a loyal community that supports your podcasting journey.
• The real gold in podcasting isn’t just downloads; it’s about creating genuine connections with your listeners.
• Ads might be declining, but trust me, building a community will make your podcast thrive in the long run.
• The future of podcasting is all about community and trust, not just numbers on a screen.
• If you want to grow your podcast, start by picking one simple thing to engage with your audience.

Sponsor Magnet Book

Podpage - Podcast Website Builder

Ray Arnott Interview - Around the Layout

Heartbeat (We use this for the School of Podcasting)

Circle

Skool (affordable, simple community)

Kit (formerly Convertkit)

Mailerlite

Beehiiv

(and many more)

Mentioned in this episode:

Question of the Month: The Smallest Amount of Downloads

We all want a bigger audience. We all put a lot of work into our shows. With this in mind, what is the smallest amount of downloads you would do the show for? If it drops below a number would you stop, or put effort into finding out why?

School of Podcasting

Where Will I Be?

I love meeting you when I'm out at events. Here are some of my next events:

Where Will I Be?

Unlock Exclusive Insights: Subscribe to 'Podcasting Observations' Newsletter!

Get a look into the world of podcasting like never before with "Podcasting Observations," your go-to source for trends, tips, and transformative insights tailored just for podcasters. You also get "behind the scenes" info from the School of Podcasting

Podcasting Observations

Take Live Classes at the School of Podcasting

Podcasting in Six Weeks is BACK! (and this time it's free!)

School of Podcasting

If you’ve ever thought, ‘I want feedback, but I’m terrified of the internet,’ stay tuned—I’ll show you how to get useful criticism without letting trolls live rent-free in your head.

I’m sharing how I handle trolls, reviews, and feedback—and how you can turn all of that into fuel to grow your show instead of reasons to quit. I’ll walk you through when to ignore, when to engage, and how to build a trusted focus group that helps you make your podcast better without letting anonymous strangers live rent‑free in your head.

I break down the difference between true trolls, genuine critics, and helpful focus groups—and how each one fits (or doesn’t) into your growth as a podcaster. I share real stories about nitpicky typo trolls, cyberbullying from years ago, people who send you two and a half pages of “do a different show,” and how other podcasters are using their audience—and even Snapchat—to get honest, constructive criticism.

By the end, you’ll see why I say feedback is the “breakfast of champions,” and why your fear of judgment shouldn’t keep your show stuck on your hard drive.

• How I define a troll: unsolicited, emotionally charged feedback that’s mostly about getting a reaction.
• How I define a focus group: people who actually want to help shape and improve your show.
• Why some “trolls” are really just frustrated fans who want attention.

• The three topics that almost guarantee you’ll attract trolls:
• Politics
• News / current events
• Religion
• Why I’m okay with pushback when I brush up against these—and why you should expect it if your show leans into them.

• Rule #1: Don’t feed the trolls.
• I talk about why I always try to wait before responding.
• How I “kill them with kindness” when I choose to reply.
• Why I often simply say, “Thanks for the feedback,” and move on.
• How I remind myself that sometimes people are just having a bad day, and I happened to be standing in front of them.

• The key question I always ask: “Do they have a point?”
• An example: being told, “You interrupt your guests too much,” and how I go back, listen, and honestly assess if they’re right.
• How I respond when someone clearly just wants me to do a completely different show than the one I want to make.

• Why I sometimes ask, “How could I have done this better?” to separate useful advice from empty criticism.
• How I ask for evidence or sources in a non-defensive way:
• “I’m interested in digging into this—can you share a link?”
• When I’ll share my sources and politely stand my ground.
• When I decide it’s time to block, report, and move on, especially on platforms like YouTube.

• How knowing who my show is for makes it easier to ignore the wrong people.
• Why I consider the nastiest haters as “not my target audience.”
• The math I look at: out of hundreds of reviews, only a tiny percentage are negative—but they love to hog my attention if I let them.

• A clip from Mark Maron talking about trolls who keep coming back.
• How he describes repeat trolls as people who are weirdly in love with you and just want you to get mad so they feel seen.

• The listener who went absolutely ballistic over typos and sent me 5–6 paragraph rants.
• How I handled it when the comments got personal.
• How I eventually “trolled the troll” with humor and kindness and watched him disappear (and reappear…and disappear again).

• A conversation with Madame Strangeways who was reluctant to ask for feedback because of a cyberbullying incident 20 years ago.
• How I encourage her (and you) to start with trusted fans and patrons as a safe focus group.
• My “too much salt in the bread” analogy: people who love what you’re making will still tell you if something’s off, because they have to consume it.

• How Jr. Sparrow used Snapchat’s Snap Map to find brutally honest listeners.
• How he turned “this show is crap” comments into a small group that now:
• Helps him curate which episodes to release.
• Shapes themes and content months in advance.
• Why he says you need “skin like Shrek” (thick skin, many layers) if you want to attach dollar signs to your show.

• How experienced podcasters (including me) use feedback on topics, guests, and angles before episodes ever hit the feed.
• Why I’d rather kill an episode early than spend years promoting something that doesn’t resonate with my audience.

Snapchat’s Snap Maps

https://youtu.be/l4R-wu42gZk?si=BVhAiDeB_Tq6anoO

Getting Data From Snap Map

https://youtu.be/qGxblSXvEbU?si=KoeDP8aI32uKvKjS

• You are already being judged—at Home Depot, in the grocery line, everywhere—so a few online comments shouldn’t paralyze you.
• A tiny slice of reviews will be negative; they don’t outweigh the huge percentage of people who get value from your show.
• Feedback is how you get better. You can’t fix what you don’t know is broken.
• Learn to separate:
• Trolls – don’t feed them, or reply calmly and briefly.
• Constructive critics – look for the truth in what they’re saying.
• True fans / focus groups – invite them in and let them help you refine the show.
• If someone hates your show and clearly isn’t who you’re trying to reach, there’s a simple name for them: not your audience.

• School of Podcasting – Where I help you plan, launch, and grow your podcast, including listener parties to get safe, constructive feedback.
• Ask the Podcast Coach – My live call-in/chat show for free podcast consulting.
• Podpage – Website platform for podcasters (I’m the Head of Podcasting there).
• Madame Strangeways – True strange stories at madamestrangeways.com.
• Jr. Sparrow – WVU Uncommon Place – Society and culture in West Virginia.

• Tell me what you think:
• Let me know one thing you love and one thing you’d change about this show at schoolofpodcasting.com/contact or schoolofpodcasting.com/voicemail.
• Need help with your podcast?
• If you want a safe place to get honest feedback and improve your show, join me at SchoolOfPodcasting.com and use the coupon code LISTENER for a discount. It comes with a 30‑day money‑back guarantee.

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