Stephen Dubner is the New York Times best-selling author and host of the podcast Freakonomics. I met Stephen when he and his Freakonomics crew came to Esalen for an on-site interview that centered around deceased Nobel Prize winner and occasional Esalen lecturer Richard Feynman. Feynman assisted in the development of the atomic bomb during World War II; later in his career, he investigated the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster.

During the 1980s, in Big Sur, three women who had experience with underground psychedelic therapy, Debby Harlow, Barbara Berg, and Cheryl Haley, initiated Feynman through the psychedelic experience. Now, the Freakonomics team was interested in interviewing these three women, at Esalen, where they had initially met Feynman.

We gathered together in the famed Fritz room at the southern most tip of the Esalen property, and I got to see Stephen do his work. He seemed fascinated with Feynman, not just as an intellect, but as a human being. And in many ways, as a person, Feynman exemplified the human potential project — he pursued expansion and fulfillment, right up to the very end of his life.

I am thankful for Feynman, if only because it linked me to Stephen Dubner, one of my favorite writers, thinkers and interviewers alive today. In our conversation, we delve into the life of Feynman, but save a little time to talk AI, job loss, storytelling, the future of work, and the critical role of community. In this episode, I play some short clips from one of the recent Freakonomics episodes: "Mr Feynman Takes a Trip — But Doesn’t Fall." I also play a few brief segments from one of Feynman’s talks at Esalen Institute in 1984, which he called Tiny Machines.

Enjoy Freakonomics:

https://freakonomics.com/series/freakonomics-radio/