The Deep End Pool Podcast

Frank and Jacque take a listener question asking what are some products he would recommend to get or avoid. Rated on the 1 to 5 quack scale, even have a couple with the ultimate low butt quack rating.

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00:00 intro.

03:30 Our service business, Poolwerx Keller was awarded "Top 50" Service Companies in the U.S by Pool and Spa News. Thank you to all of our awesome staff.

06:05 - listener question. What are some good and bad purchases for swimming pool owners and service people?

07:20 - 1 quack- cheap pool poles, extension poles. Don't waste your money on a cheap pole.

10:37 - 2 quack - solar covers, I see so many pool owners use them once or twice and then never use them again, I strongly believe solar covers increase drowning risk for children and pets

12:30 - 2 quack - Pentair Racer and Polaris 360 automatic pool cleaners, both seem to be extremely problematic and high failure rate. There are so many better choices out there.

14:50 - Butt Quack - skim around pool skimmer basket. made cheaply, problematic. A properly operating weir door serves the same purpose, and maybe even better. The pool skimmer is designed for a proper weir door, make sure the pool has one.

18:50 - 4 quacks - Waterco Multicyclone. Does a great job separating small dirt and debris before it gets into the filter.

22:25 - 5 quack - leaf master, big sucker, leaf eater, there are several manufacturers of these units. They are fairly inexpensive and hook to a water hose and have a large bag attached to them to catch leaves. The hose creates a venturi that picks up leaves and light debris very well. They do not work well with dirt though.

24:10 - 5 quack - For the pros - Hammer Head or Rip Tide pool cleaner. These use a battery and basically a trolling motor to suck debris into a large bag. These work great in the field for pros, but probably not something a pool owner would want to buy.

25:25 - 4 Quack - vacuum cart with pump and cartridge filter. I like the Waterco Ultra Vac, with or without a multicyclone. This is an excellent way to fine filter a pool without putting the dirt into the pool filter. Many pros like to build their own vac carts and save a little money, but I like to just buy the ready to go unit and not have to mess with designing and building the cart system.

28:15 - 4 Quacks- pool skim leaf skimmer. These hook to a pool return and floats on the surface of the water and suck leaves off the surface into a large capacity bag. These are great for pools that get overwhelmed with leaves.

30:45 - 4-5 Quack - Polaris robotics. Alpha IQ+, Epic 8640 or 8642. Work great and we have had no issues with support and warranty when needed. Dolphin cleaners appear to have dropped a little in quality, and support, which had dropped to butt quack level, has gotten better, but still trailing Polaris.

32:25 - 5 Quack - Pal LED lighting. Some others also make good lights, but there are many issues with some of the major brand LED lights.

33:25 - 5 Quack - Cyclone Filter Tools. made to clean cartridge filters. Extremely well made. Does a great job cleaning, saving time and even cleaning better. Soon they will release a smaller less expensive model, The Shark, which is made for smaller cartridges, but still clean the large cartridges.

36:30 - 5 Quack - a good pool brush. I love the blue torrent 360 brushes. Does a great job in corners and angles on pools. The Wall Whale is also a great brush that helps you scrub better when brushing.

38:38 - 5 Quack - Frog Log, great for helping critters get out of a pool.

38:24 - 4 Quack - Skim Pro Baskets, and SP HP baskets. Center or side stems that stick up above the water allowing you to empty the basket without getting your hand in the water, the vented stems allow the skimmers to still move water even when full of debris

40:50 - 5 Quack- CMP smart scoop, Extremely helpful measuring pool chemicals and DE

Part 2 of Frank and guest Greg Leschber discuss common regrets pool owners have shared with them.

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Continuing with water features from episode 92. Greg brings up how pool owners have regretted not having a separate dedicated pump for their water features on their pool. A separate pump allows you run the features during spa mode or at any time.

deck jets. Frank is not a fan of deck jets. He has had several pool owners tell him that deck jets did not deliver the bang for the buck that envisioned. They are loud and they affect pH.

Frank and Greg talked about the obvious regret that some pool owners have about not knowing how to properly winterize their pool equipment during a freeze emergency in areas that do not typically winterize. The lack of a proper pool school, or paying attention during pool school is a common regret we see from pool owners.

Many pool owners find that adding a hot tub to their pool was a waste for them. Some love their spas, but many find that they do not use their spa enough to justify the extra cost.

large rock waterfalls, rock below the waterline, not having a separate feature pump, choice of stones are all common regrets that we hear from pool owners.

Salt water chlorine generation systems are not a great choice for everyone or for every area. Many pool owners realize they had unreasonable expectations of the ease, care, maintenance, and results they receive from their salt water pool systems. Many pool people find that managing water balance in a salt pool can be more difficult.

Part 1. Special guest Greg Leschber of Leschber designs discusses with Frank some of the many things that pool owners have wished they would have done different with their pool projects.

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some of the things we hear pool owners say the wish they would have done something different with their pool and pool area design, equipment, features, and materials.

00:00-09.04: intro

09:05: flashing- flashing is a light coat of shotcrete applied to the soil edges of the excavated hole prior to the full shell completion. this process helps retain the soil and prevents cave ins, especially during rains. many builders and/or pool owners reegret not having this done and had to deal with the excavated hole caving in, which increases cost and stop the construction.

10:50: #1 many pool owners say they wish they would have done more deck. adding deck. they did not realize how they would use the space and how restrictive not having enough can be. deck can be added later, but it is more expensive and typically is difficult to match.

13:18: the placement of permanent structures like outdoor kitchens and built-in fire pits can also be a huge regret when pool owners realize how they use the space can be a big regret when they realize how the space is used.

16:00: tanning ledges. tanning ledges are something that many regret not doing a tanning ledge or not making them big enough. everyones needs are different, but many of our clients will tell you the tanning ledge is the most used area of the pool. but there are some that wish they didn't have a tanning ledge.

20:30; pool depth regrets. pool owners complain that they went too deep. many have sport pools and realize too much depth greatly reduces the usability of the pool. pool owners need to really think about what depth will work for them. some wish they went deeper, some wish they'd gone shallow.

26:10: not designing the pool so good circulation can be achieved. builders need to place returns to the pool in locations that provide for good circulation. dead spots in circulation are very problematic especially as water ages and builds up minerals and organics.

29:08: vet your builder. there are many great pool builders. but there are a few that need to be avoided. ask many questions. check references. search owner name not just company name.

34:40 drainage in the pool area. drainage is critical. we have seen many issues caused by inadequate drainage. make sure drainage is being properly addressed.

38:50 have competent people take care of the pool, if you will maintain your own pool make sure you learn how well.

42:50 people regret not getting a heat pump/chiller on the pool. heat pumps serve a different purpose than gas heaters.

46:00 when having electrical installed for pool equipment, have the electrician size it to be sufficient for possible future needs if there is any chance you may want to add something later i.e. heat pump, electric spa, outdoor kitchen, etc...

48:30 water features can be a regret. deck jets, water falls, spray jets. people can be underwhelmed or overwhelmed in the results they get from adding water features. this is will be covered in more depth in part 2.

Frank and Jacque talk about water balance water chemistry. Why is LSI Langlier Saturation Index important in your pool and how do you manage it.

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00:00-04:50 must be halloween found a bat in a skimmer, plaster finisher didn't use stainless steel set screws when reinstalling the pool light fixture

04:51 facebook question asking if they should be concerned about pH being high in their pool. answer is a little high or a little low is ok as long as LSI is in a good range. Then people asked what is LSI.

05:40 anyone managing a swimming pool should understand LSI, Langlier Saturation index. LSI is water balance. Water seeks a saturation equilibrium. There. are a few things that determine what that equilibrium is. water temperature, pH, alkalinity, calcium hardness, total dissolved solids, and to a degree cya, borates, and a few other factors. All of these go into a formula that allows you to calculate if the water is aggressive, meaning it wants to dissolve anything it can to become saturated which can etch pool surfaces or weaken and damage equipment, or scaling, which is the water has too much stuff dissolved in it and it wants to push the dissolved materials out of solution, or precipitate, which can cause scaling or staining.

06:45 water chemistry, both balance and sanitizers are just part of pool maintenance. chemistry alone will not keep your pool water looking good and safe. you still need good filtration, circulation, removal of debris, and brushing.

17:45 to achieve proper chemistry you must properly test your water, and do not dose a chemical without testing it first. and measure doses, do not guess amounts. it is recommended that most chemicals, acid, shocks, etc.. be diluted in a bucket of water when adding it to the pool. Always add chemical to water not water to chemicals. keep records for test results, chemicals added, filter pressure, and water condition. There are apps available that can make calculating LSI easy. We like the Orenda app.

Water temperature changes the water balance. as temperatures increase the LSI increases, and as they decrease the LSI decreases. so the average pool LSI will change quite a bit during the year just do to water temperature. typically scale will first develop in areas where the water temperature is a little warmer.

Calcium, on most pools, will naturally increase over time. the only way to decrease calcium in water is to remove or dilute the water, use reverse osmosis, or push it out of solution by violating the lsi and turn it into scale in the pool.

total dissolved solids is everything that has been dissolved into the water

cya and borates affect LSI through their affect on alkalinity test results

Alkalinity is the total of carbonates, bicarbonates, hydroxides and a few other things to a lesser degree. It is called the buffering capacity of water. It resists the effect of acids and bases on the LSI. Too low or too high alkalinity make it difficult to control pH. Alkalinity should be tested weekly and managed pretty closely.

ph has the biggest impact on LSI, and it typically is the parameter in LSI that changes the most. pH can change hourly in a pool. It is extremely important that you test pH regularly and adjust as needed.

Frank and Jacque discuss an issue with extremely high alkalinity and how to fix it. The ends and outs and myth busting beliefs about alkalinity.

Credit to Ipssa "Basic Training Manual" and "Intermediate Training Manual" by the late, great Robert Lowery

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00:00 Intro. what's up with Frank and Jacque

05:40 Fellow Poolwerx franchisee, Poolwerx Haslet, is dealing with extremely high alkalinity and asked Frank's opinion about best way to lower it.

Alkalinity is the buffering capacity of water. It is the amount of carbonates, bicarbonates, hydroxides and a few other things. It is very important in calculating LSI in a swimming pool. Some things will affect your alkalinity test results. CYA will falsely read as alkalinity. You should subtract 1/3 of your cya reading from your alkalinity test results. If you use borates you can subtract 1 (one) ppm of alkalinity for every 10 ppm of borates in the water. Source water can be extremely high in alkalinity and create issues trying to keep water balanced.

11:45 to lower alkalinity you use acid. Muriatic or suphuric acid, or dry acid which is sodium bisulfate. acids lower alkalinity and ph. no matter how you add the acid it lowers both. there are myths about you can affect how acid lowers either pH or alkalinity by how you add the acid. But these are wrong. Acids will always lower pH and alkalinity at the same rate regardless of how you add them to the water.

because of the effect on pH you have to be careful and strategic when dosing acid to the water to lower alkalinity. You can easily violate the LSI and damage your pool surfaces and equipment.

chemical products that raise ph (sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate) also raise alkalinity. this means we have to find a way to lower alkalinity and then adjust our pH back up with out raising alkalinity again

The way to raise your pH without raising alkalinity is aeration. You can aerate your water by disturbing the surface of the pool waterfalls, aiming return jets at the surface, inject air into the bottom of the pool, features that spray water across the surface are all ways to aerate the pool and increase pH.

the recommended way to adjust extremely high alkalinity to manageable levels is do several small doses of acid over time 10 to 20 ppm per dose, and aerate the water to prevent lowering pH to levels that damage your pool and equipment. test before each dose and make sure you are not violating the LSI. do not rush the process.

Our first episode of our third season! Frank and Jacque talk more about some things you should do going into cooler season.

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00:00 introduction

08:00 checking out your pool equipment area, is your equipment pad clean? Do not let your pad be overgrown with grass or be covered in dirt or debris. Watch out for the fire ants mounding up under your pump motor. Fire ants will mound up around your motor to take advantage of the heat. A clean equipment pad will help you identify leaks and other issues.

09:00 your equipment pad should be level, an unlevel pad can stress your plumbing and equipment.

11:05 don't allow the earth around the equipment pad build up to where it can put your equipment in a low spot, causing water to overflow the equipment pad, leading to corrosion or water damage to your swimming pool equipment. You can raise your equipment pad, or improve the drainage in the area so the pad is not in a low area.

15:45 break

16:25 clean your filter, have it operating at it's best going into the winter. Look for equipment leaks, address any issues that may worsen and become a serious problem. Take care of the problems before it is an emergency.

18:50 shaft seal leaks can quickly destroy your pump motor

21:55 look at your gutters and drainage around the pool equipment and pool area. these get damaged or altered, and can become very problematic even if they haven't been a problem before.

23:55 check your heaters before you need it. make sure it's working well. clean out the heaters, maybe add mothballs into the cabinet of the heater, not in the burn chamber, to prevent critters from making your heater their winter home.

24:55 check electrical conduits and wiring. repair any breaks or loose connections

25:52 check and properly secure bonding wire

28:50 check diverter and backwash valves for easy movement, replace orings on valves if questionable at all

31:05 make sure pressure gauge is working properly. replace if questionable, and do a filter cleaning. record clean pressure and at one of the higher speeds you operate at regularly. use this pressure to check if system is operating properly

32:50 check freeze protection, don't find out it didn't work after a freeze by the damage from the freeze. make sure pump is moving water if air temp is below freezing

35:50 check weir doors and skimmer baskets, and pump baskets

36:10 get a leaf cover early, these can get several weeks out on install. allsafepool.com

Frank and Jacque answer a couple listener questions. First question is about properly sizing a pool heater and brand recommendations. Then they answer a couple questions about salt systems, corrosion, and CYA issues.

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https://sizing.aquacal.com/

How do you determine the size of heater you need for your pool or spa? First, many pros will agree that bigger is better. We will discuss how much heat it takes to achieve the temperature rise in the water, but one of the most important things to consider is how fast you want to achieve the desired temperature rise. And then you have to consider overcoming heat loss while heating and maintaining the heat rise, and of course the cost.

BTU = the amount of energy it takes to increase the temperature of one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit.

One gallon of water weighs 8.3 pounds.

It costs around $4.00 to $8.00 Per hour to fire a 400,000 BTU gas pool heater. Prices will vary between areas of the country. One Therm = 100 cubic feet of natural gas, which = 100,000 BTU. So to determine your actual cost you will need to see what you pay for natural gas per therm at your location. In North Texas we are currently paying around $1.80 per therm.

To calculate if a heater can achieve your desires in heating your swimming pool (or spa, but of course spas are much smaller). It takes one BTU to increase the temperature of one pound of water one degree Fahrenheit. So if you have 10,000 gallons of water you must first calculate how many pounds of water that equals. 10,000 (gal) x 8.3 (lbs per gal) = 83,000 lbs. So it takes 83,000 BTUs to heat 10,000 gallons 1 degree.

If you need to increase 20,000 gallons 15 degrees, then 20,000 x 8.3 = 166,000 lbs of water, x 15 degrees = 2,490,000 BTUs are required.

Now, how much heat can your heater produce? You have to consider the efficiency of the heater. Every pool heater will have a rating. Most common residential heaters will be listed around 80 to 84% efficiency. That means if a 400,000 BTU heater is 80% efficient, then it will actually only result in 320,000 BTUs of energy being transferred into the water. Please note that the efficiency rating on a pool heater is determined under optimal operating conditions. Proper gas volume provided to the heater, proper water flow through the heater, and proper air flow through the heater are critical to achieve the maximum rated efficiency of that heater. A heater that is not operating with optimal conditions will actually be much less efficient that what it is rated at. So make sure your heater is properly installed and maintained.

If you have a 10,000 gallon pool, and you need to increase the water temperature by 15 degrees, with a 400,000 BTU 80% efficient heater, and you are paying $2.00 per therm for natural gas, then this is what you can expect. 10,000 (gal) x 8.3 lbs = 83,000 total lbs. 83,000 lbs x 15 degrees = 1,245,000 btu required. 400,000 btu heater x .80 (efficiency = 320,000 actual btu per hour. 1,245,000 / 320,000 = 3.89 hours to achieve desired heat rise.

Now we have to consider that the water in the pool is losing heat to the atmosphere and surrounding surfaces This can be very significant. While heating you must be able to overcome this heat loss faster that it occurs. In a perfect scenario we said 3.89 hours in our example. But if the air is cold, and there is wind whipping across the surface of the water, it can take much longer to heat the pool, and in some scenarios the heat you are putting into the water may not be able to keep up with the heat being lost. This and other factors are why many believe that bigger is always better when it comes to heaters. Even if you have properly calculated what minimum size heater is required, circumstances can make it insufficient and incapable of achieving your needs.

Frank and Jacque talk about pool water chemistry as your water cools off into the fall, from the center London while traveling.. They also discuss some other things you can do to get your pool ready for the cooler season.

Frank's reads his "If I Were An Algae" poem, and discusses what algae likes and how you can control it.

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Well if I were an algae

I would pick the perfect pool

There would be lots of sunshine

And it would never be cool

I’d like the warmer water

It gives me special powers

I can double in numbers

Every three to four hours

I’m a photosynthesizer

It takes sun to make me grow

And I eat carbon dioxide

That’s dissolved in H 2 O

This raises the pool P H

And makes the water more base

That makes chlorine even weaker

And I can take up more space

There would be many dead spots

Places where water don’t move

I can relax in the sun

And get into my groove

I also love pitted plaster

And it is my safest place

Even if you brush it well

You’ll probably still leave a trace

I love me some organics

Phosphates are my favorite food

Gives me chills for multiplying

It puts me into the mood

I am very much like a plant

When you feed them compost

So dead leaves and plant stuff

For me is like taters and roast

I really like low chlorine

Seven point five percent of CYA

Kills me faster than I grow

So it makes me go away

And please don’t add borates

It makes multiplying real hard

It takes one third less chlorine

To put me in the grave yard

And please do not use copper

To me it can be a real pain

And if water gets unbalanced

It might leave pretty green stains

So let your water go bad

Don’t even bother to test

Let the balance go crazy

And give the chlorine a rest

We all love beauties of nature

So think before you respond

Don’t you want your pretty pool

To look like a green pond

Frank and Jacque answer a listener question about should they replace a pump motor or spend the extra money and install a new Jandy variable speed pump.

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using calculator https://www.jandy.com/en/pool-pump-savings

*error stated- Frank stated the $1300 savings for an 8 hour run time on the pump saves $1300 per year, I should have said about $1000 per year. The $1300 savings is if the single speed runs 10 hours per day*

00:00 introduction, Jacque's Birthday! Going to Croatia

07:37 Listener Question: My 2 1/2 hp pump motor is going out. It is making a really loud squeal. This particularly sucks because we are trying to cool the pool by running the pump at night and turning on the valve to the waterfalls, and the pool pump is by my daughters bedroom window. So now she is sleeping with us. The pool is cooler, but her sleeping with us is not cool. Please explain how the $1600 difference between a new motor or new 2.7 horsepower variable speed pump can possibly be worth it.

10:50 many large pumps are oversized for the plumbing. you may be able to downsize the pump to begin with. We find many pumps are too large for the plumbing and should be downsized.

12:10 Jacque asks what is the difference between the pump and motor. Frank explains that motors drive pumps, and can be replaced without replacing the pump, but it is not always the best choice.

13:40 break

14:30 assuming 20 cents per KW, 2.5 uprated motor, and 20K gallon pool, traditional chlorine, proper hydraulics. If hydraulics are not correct the single speed pump will cost even more electricity than what the on line calculator shows.

17:00 estimate a 2.5 hp single speed pump moves about 94 gallons per minute. in 8 hours the pump will move 5628 gallons per hour. In 8 hours this will accomplish 2.25 turnovers per day. We recommend a minimum of 2 turnovers per day. at a cost of $3.71 per day, $110 to $115 per month

If he installs a Jandy 2.7hp variable speed it will move about 1/2 the water per hour, but 2.28 turnovers in 16 hours, at a cost of $1.05 per day for about $31.50 per month. that is about $80 per month savings. About $1000 savings per year. (screwed up the total math on the show, but still significant)

21:00 variable speed pumps are typically much more quiet than traditional single speed pumps.

The extra flow is available if needed for spas and waterfalls if needed.

Running longer and slower filter cycles is usually much more beneficial than shorter higher flow cycles.

Saltwater chlorine generation systems can also be much more effective with longer filter cycles. (This also applies to ozone, UV, and AOP systems)