The EMDR Podcast

The EMDR Podcast

By Thomas ZimmermanHealth & FitnessMental Health
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The EMDR Podcast episodes

  • Walking the Prisoner Out Metaphor in Flash Therapy and in EMDR Therapy

    This episode focuses on different types of distress that may appear in trauma work and explores the types of distress that are most productive to metabolize.

    In many transformational trauma therapies, at least part of what we are doing is transforming the distress encoded in the memory.  There is distress in almost any individual traumatic memory. However, that’s not the only distress that may be present.  One question that the therapist may want to ask is: what distress is productive to try to metabolize and what might be a goose chase.  Cleary, we want to metabolize the distress that is in the memory, but if too much memory comes into awareness or if memory comes with too much intensity, the system—which is designed for protection and containment—may have strong defenses against that much memory content showing up.

    Prisoner scenario #1

    • Warden goes to a specific jail cell, unlocks it, and slowly walks that prisoner down the corridor
    • They walk one step at a time
    • As long as no one panics everything is fine
    • The warden, if desired, can wall the prisoner straight out of the prison
    • Prisoner scenario #2

      • Warden goes to a specific jail cell, unlocks it, and they start walking down the hallway
      • The prisoner starts running
      • The system is designed to protect against that
      • Now, the prisoner has to deal with everything that stinks about his current situation AND now has to deal with the defenses that resulted from moving too quickly
      • How this looks in Flash Therapy

        • Overactivation or opening too many adjacent memories causes problems with containment
        • Problems with body activation
        • Problems experiencing the calm scene as a disconfirming experience
        • How this looks in EMDR Therapy

          • When we are working with clients with complex trauma, we are often working with clients with a very narrow window of tolerance… even after extensive resource development
          • Clients with complex trauma have well-developed and automatic survival strategies that kick in when too much distress is activated in too short of a time
          • Noticing the distress or shut down from the defenses against the trauma is not as productive as noticing the content in the actual memory.
          • We need that content to come at a digestible rate.  If it doesn’t we have a goose chase.  And you client is the goose and the chaser.
          • Other forms of distress that don’t tend to be productive in either EMDR of Flash: existential questions or agendas.  Example: divorce memory turns into “Why do all my relationships not work out?”  “Why does everyone I have ever loved hurt me?”  “Will I every find love?”
          • Strategies to more effectively “walk a memory out” with clients with complex trauma

            In EMDR:

            • Work at the intersection of what is productive and tolerable
            • Use the Shapiro-endorsed Video Tape Approach instead of going into the memory at the worst part
            • Don’t lose track of the fact that we have selected the starting memory for a reason.  Anticipate that with clients with complex trauma, when the body feels a certain way, adjacent memories will want to come.  It’s not a good idea to open your little tea party to a whole part of town, just because everything there has the same body-feel.
            • In the Four Blinks Version of Flash:

              • Be careful not to overactive. Most problems come from overactivation.  If the video of the memory is playing when you open the door on the memory, the prisoner is running.  If you are trying to make sense of the memory, the prisoner is running.  If you have distress in your body from the activation, the prisoner is running.  If multiple memories are connecting, the prisoner is running.
              • The Folger’s Coffee Can Full of Black Powder metaphor.

                Many times, the most efficient ways to process memories is to take a single step/spoon full at a time.  Complete that step/bite.  Take the next.

                16 min
              • Understanding Containment with Clients with Complex Trauma

                What Do Container Resources Do?

                Long story short, containers help you expedite the process of returning difficult content to the limbic brain.   Library metaphor. Containers very often are a cognitive strategy or intention not to engage with something right now.  A container can also be a somatic strategy, because if we only address the cognitive aspects of rumination we may be leaving a lot of distress in the body, which can reactivate the mind.

                Containers are also a helpful ritual in pivoting away from activation.  It’s a ritual that signifies something to parts.  However, the reasons why we need to container matter.  Many, many, problems with containment come from the assumptions that clients make about what containment means… what it means to current functioning, what it means for their past, and what it means for their recovery.  For example, many clients say “wait a minute, Tom… I have locked this stuff up all of my life… I come to see you to get it all out… and you’re telling me to do something I’m coming to you stop doing.”

                Again, we need to explain that the reasons why we container are very important.  All of these are good/healthy/adaptive reasons for containing something that has been activated:

                • We have been trying to solve the problem using strategies that have a very long history of being ineffective (rumination, allowing lots of memories/cognitions/themes to connect)
                • Now is not a good time to try to resolve the problem or issue
                • The issue is intruding on our ability to function at the present time
                • The problem is actively contributing to current instability
                • We would like to exercise control over what is getting our attention in the current moment
                • Adaptive containment is ultimately about client agency… deciding on purpose what to attend to in this moment and what to defer, because we are not wired to attend to everything past/present/future in every moment.
                • Containment is the beginning of stability.
                • Ultimately, we want to emphasize that it’s okay to container because we have a plan to resolve this issue in an effective way at a later date (a transformational psychotherapy)

                  Ways that are not a good idea to use in containment, since parts may react to the implications of these approaches (although clearly these are preferred methods by some parts):

                  • Diaper Genie
                  • Rocket
                  • Incinerator
                  • Trash can
                  • Explosive
                  • Containment is one of the best adaptations of human evolution.  The limbic brain is a container.  I tell my clients that the reason we’re not all in the psychiatric hospital all of the time is because of the containering qualities of the limbic brain.  We are information processing systems and when we encounter information that we cannot assimilate because we were too shut down, too overwhelmed, or lacked the needed adaptive information at the time, it is helpful to have a place to put it until we can try again to assimilate it.  Clients often come to us with a lot of ambivalence about carrying a lot of containered experiences.  On one hand, they have been consciously and unconsciously trying to process (or at least manage) this information using incredibly ineffective strategies likely all of their lives.  One the other, they have visceral experiences (all of them bad) from trying to purposefully interact with containered information.  Containering isn’t a neutral activity.  Asking a client to simply let go of information that is both existentially salient and intractable is not a neutral ask.  Everything we container, past interactions with container, past strategies to try to process trauma, and the fact that we are carrying stuff that needs containment are all implicated in what makes purposeful containment difficult for many clients with complex trauma. 


                    34 min
                  • Understanding "Deep Breathing Doesn’t Work for Me" and Other Problems of Resourcing with Complex Trauma
                    “Deep Breathing Doesn’t Work for Me”
                    • Understanding that Pervasively Traumatized Nervous Systems are Different than Non-Traumatized Nervous Systems
                    • Don’t Tell Clients What they Will or Should Feel in Resourcing, Think of it as an Opportunity to Get Helpful Information
                    • Car with a Cinder Block on the Gas Petal Metaphor
                    • Pairing Body Scan and Resources
                    • The Importance of Asking Permission and How Long Resource will Last
                    • Modeling a Single Breath and Using that Information Select a Breath that May be More Tolerable
                    • With Some Clients, the Goal is to Find a Resource that Isn’t Actively Triggering
                    • Using Body Scans without Much of an Agenda
                    • Understanding What a Resource “Working” Looks Like… If it Calms You, It May Only Calm You for a Moment
                    • Noticing the Body is Also a Crucial Phase Two Resource
                    • Body Scanning is a Good Strategy to Promote Embodiment, So Clients Can be Imbodied Enough to Notice
                    • Homework: Practice Resources During the Times of the Day When Anxiety Isn’t Going Straight Up, Noticing the Layer Below is a Good Way to Lower Baseline Anxiety in the Short Term and Prepare for Reprocessing
                    • 10 min
                    • When Good Resources Go Bad
                      • Calm Place
                        • Why We Don’t Encourage Other People in Calm/Safe Place
                        • When Calm Place Without Someone Specific is Triggering
                        • The Problems of Trying to “Borrow Good Memories from a Bad Developmental Era”
                        • Calm Place Will Go Bad… And When It Does…
                        • Some Completely Expected Reasons Why Resourcing May Go Bad
                        • Resources Going Bad Are Rarely the Therapist “Fault”
                        • Container as a Powerful Resource for Working with Complex Trauma
                        • The Importance of Visualizing or Drawing from Somatic Memory
                        • Drive Through Bank Teller as Helpful and Accessible Container
                        • Building the Container Larger and Stronger than Needed
                        • Photoshop Metaphor for Container
                        • Be Careful Testing the Container with Real Trauma Containered in the Limbic Brain Immediately After You Create It
                        • 10 min
                        • Understanding the AIP Model: The Whale Metaphor and the Mount Everest Metaphor

                          The AIP Model

                          · The Difficult Stuff Connects to Right Now/Existing Adaptive Information

                          · Enough Adaptive Information Must Be Present

                          · You Can’t Easily Connect Maladaptive Information to Maladaptive Information

                          · What’s Complex About Complex Trauma Related to the AIP Model?

                          o A Different Way of Thinking About Complex Trauma

                          o Mountain Ranges of Adaptive Information vs Mountain Ranges of Maladaptive Information

                          The Mount Everest Metaphor

                          · You Cannot Metabolize a Trauma the Size of Mount Everest into Adaptive Information the Size of a Walnut—You Can’t

                          · Where to Start with Complex Trauma?

                          o Where Not to Start

                          o Types of Targets that Make Good Early Targets with Complex Trauma

                          The Whale Metaphor

                          · What are the Whales?

                          · What is the Size of the Client’s Boat?

                          · You Cannot Land a Whale into a Canoe

                          · Helping the Client Build a Bigger Boat

                          · What Clients Learn when Working with “Smaller” Wounds First

                          o Test the Gear

                          o Learn How to Notice Effectively

                          o They Learn that the Can Heal

                          o Healing Builds Adaptive Information/Makes the Boat Bigger

                          · If the Client in a Canoe Connects to a Whale we Need a Strong Pair of Scissors to Safely Disconnect

                          20 min
                        • Developing and Using Attachment Figures in Attachment Wounding
                          • Problems Communicating Between/Connecting Parts Across the Lifespan
                          • The AIP Model and Attachment Wounding
                          • Judgements of the Child State in the “Adaptive Self”
                          • When the Right Now Selves Isn’t Healthy Enough
                          • The Whale Metaphor and Attachment Wounding
                          • Attachment Wounds “Sound” Small, but they are Existentially Awful
                          • Existential Loneliness
                          • Attachment Figures are for the Child State in the Memory
                          • Attachment Resources as a Very Powerful Pair of Scissors to Disconnect from the Whale
                          • Creating an Attachment Resource
                          • Client Obstacles to Creating an Attachment Resource
                          • Putting the Attachment Figure in the Neighborhood
                          • Attachment Figures are Not Identical to Actual People in Childhood
                          • Borrowing Qualities
                          • Keeping Difficult Stuff Out
                          • Deciding on a Relational Slot
                          • Adding Qualities to the Attachment Figures: Food, Presence, Nurture, Reading, Attending, Protection, Guidance
                          • Expect that Grief May Appear When You Imagine Getting What Didn’t Happen
                          • Using the Somatic Memory of Rocking One of Your Own Children or Grandchildren
                          • Leveraging the Capacity to Imagine
                          • Naming the Attachment Figure
                          • Avoiding Relational Slots that are the Same Slot as an Abuser
                          • How to Use an Attachment Resource Between Sessions
                          • This is a Resource for Living, Not Just in Session
                          • Assessing for Attachment Wounding
                          • When You Can and Can’t Borrow Qualities from a Deceased Person
                          • 27 min

                          About The EMDR Podcast

                          From the publisher's feed

                          Helping therapists work more effectively with complex trauma. Thomas Zimmerman, Ms.Ed., LPCC, offers EMDR Foundational Training in Cleveland, Ohio, and online throughout the United States. We can also…

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