The Gravel Ride. A cycling podcast

This week's episode is part 2 of our interviews from the Made Bike Show in August 2023. We speak with Moots, Fat Chance, Hot Salad, Seeker, Neuhaus, Pinebury, Circa, Story Street, Paul's Components, Stinner, Horse, Frameworks and Bosch.

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[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I've got round two of my interviews from the made bike show in Portland, Oregon. In this week's episode, we've got John from moots. It's talking about that seven 50 B wheel size got Chris from fat chance. Be vivid from hot salad. Chris McGovern from seeker and McGovern cycles. Nick new house, the pine Berry team, circa story street. Paul's components, Aaron from Stenner. A horse. Frameworks Bosch. We've got it all. Another exciting episode. Can I tell you how jazz that was to attend this show and get all these great interviews

And I guarantee I'll have some of them on, for longer form interviews so we can get an even deeper dive as to their backstory and what they're all about as a brand. And frame builder. Before we jump in, I do need to thank this week. Sponsor hammerhead. And the hammerhead crew to computer. As many of you wind down your advent seasons, you may be looking forward to a winter filled with exploration and adventure rides. And there's no better device than the hammerhead crew too, for those adventures. It's the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today with industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS had units.

You can seamlessly import. Roots from Strava commute and more you can route and reroute on the fly and create pin dropping routing with all with turn by turn directions. With upcoming elevation changes. You know, this device is always up to date with the latest software as they do biweekly software updates, making sure that they're adding the latest features, whether you bought the device two years ago or tomorrow, you're ready to go with a hammerhead kuru too. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of the crew to visit hammerhead. Dot IO right now and use the code, the gravel ride. At checkouts today, it's an exclusive limited time offer for our podcast listeners. So don't forget that promo code. Just add the heart rate, monitor to your cart, along with the crew too, and use the code, the gravel ride today. With that said let's jump right in to all these conversations from the made bike show in portland oregon

[00:02:48] Jon | Moots: Can I get your name and brand? John Caribou from moots based outta Steamboat Springs, Colorado. Good to see you again, John. You too. One of the like, moots doesn't need a lot to draw attention to itself. The titanium frames have always been gorgeous. We've had you on the pod. I've toured the factory.

I know the type of work you do, but one of the bikes you have today is making a lot of noise here at the Maid show for a very specific reason. Can you talk about that? Yeah. It's Yeah very much in prototype stage right now. But the seven 50 D wheel size seems to be catching a lot of people interest and, comments out there on the social medias.

But yeah, it's, I think it just lends itself to the lineage and the heritage of Moots over time. Just always being on that forefront of innovation and trying different things. It doesn't mean that. This is a defacto new standard by any stretch. It's definitely a new option and honestly that, that wheel size been, has been ridden for some over the last four to five years.

We just haven't seen it. Gotcha. And you W t B was the partner who came to you with the rim and the tire, presumably, to explore this. People who've been around mountain bikes for a while will remember that. 26 to 29 moments. Can you talk about what's the rationale behind a bigger wheel size?

Yeah. It's, to me being around the industry long enough, I do remember the introduction of the 29, and it was the same company that, W t V that came to us with a rim and a tire at, in 98 and said, what do you think about this? Let's, do you want to build maybe a test bike? And we all know, the.

History of the 29 inch proliferation in the bike world, and not that this is gonna happen there, but always nice to be nimble enough to set up and build a frame around a given wheel size. And Moots is in that position to be able to do that. Yeah I remember that moment and getting on the first 29 ERs and thinking it took a little bit more to get the wheel going, but when you rolled over stuff and when you had those bikes going, It was remarkable for me and I was a very early convert to that bigger wheel size.

So it's just a curious kind of intellectual process I'm going through and understanding like, what would a gravel bike feel like as someone who rides very technical terrain, I could see the advantages of rolling over stuff more easily. And you mentioned the contact patch extending on a bigger wheel and what that might mean to the rider.

Yeah, I think it's, if you think about. Riding gravel. There's not a lot of extremely technical situations where you're making hard turns. It's a lot of straight line speed. It's a lot of straight line hits to the outer edge of the tire and rim combination at that point. So making it longer and, quite a bit bigger, spreads that out and lessens, washboard, it lessens baby heads and whatever you might encounter.

In a similar passion that the 29 did for the mountain bike world. Yeah, I think it's just been really interesting as gravel you could argue that it started out as being road bikes plus as we started to allow bigger tires in there and explore different terrain. But it's super interesting as we get into this moment many years into the gravel evolution, to start just exploring things differently and thinking about, yeah, it doesn't need to feel like a road bike as you're going faster and these bikes are getting more capable.

Who knows, maybe a bigger tire size and bigger start, a bigger ring rim size will have advantages that riders will start to see as they start to spend time on this new size. Yeah it'll be interesting and, we're anxious to put more time on it. Honestly our time has been limited, but we're getting there and, throughout this fall, late summer, we'll be logging miles and jotting down our thoughts and getting feedback to W T B and.

Anybody that would be interested in listening. Yeah. Amazing. Thanks John. I can't wait for that additional feedback. Yeah, Craig, thanks for having us.

[00:06:54] Chris | Fat Chance: Okay. Can I get your name and the brand? Yeah. The name is Chris Chance and the brand is Fat Chance Bikes. We're now building all our bikes in Medford, Oregon. Got a nicely set up shop there and we've just introduced the Thai crisscross, been doing it in steel for a number of years and I'm really excited to be doing it in titanium and the people that have been buying them are really excited to ride them.

Were you working with titanium with the mountain bikes many years ago to begin with? Yes. Yeah, we started in 93, building a titanium yoti. Okay. Called it a fat chance back then. But yeah, so we built a bunch of titanium bikes and getting back into, you know, relaunching the brand. A couple of years ago we were mostly doing steel, but you know, Ty really called me back.

What do you like about Ty for for a gravel bike purpose? Well, in general I love Thai because, you know, it never rusts. It's got a nice kind of springy resilience to it. I I like to do the engineering where we're, I have much experience in steel in designing bikes and tube diameters and wall thicknesses to get the, the, the ride properties I want, the the resilience, the, the stiffness where I want it, and the, just the lively feel in the bike.

And so I I translate the stiffness of a steel tube into titanium using a computer, and that way you get all the benefits of titanium. It's lightness, it's kind of springy feel, but I'm designing the bike more for the stiffness of the ride. So it gives you the performance you want as you're riding, like, especially like off road, you know, if you're going down a, say a trail at like as much as 30 miles an hour, your bike is, you know, bouncing around or whatever, and you're just focused on where the front wheel is going.

But if you're bouncing around a bunch, your body is taking information from what the rear wheel is doing through your feet and you, without really being conscious of it, you're doing the corrections of that through the pedals, cranks and, and frame to the wheel to keep the rubber side down. And so how the bike feels is just really important to me that I want to have the rider and the bike work as one.

Right. And so having that, that ability to Sense what the bike is doing at some, like, not even a conscious level, but developing the trust that the bike is there for you, you know, you can do what you wanna do and the bike is, is supporting you and having that peak experience. What is the customer journey to get a, a fat chance at this point?

Is it, is it a custom process? Are you building stock frames? We built stock frames, but we do some custom sizing and you can you can email us at yo at Fat Chance Bike. And get the conversation started. There's also a phone number on our website, fat chance.bike. It's do bike instead of.com and we can talk on the phone, we can do email and just get everything nailed and build you an awesome bike.

I know some of the, you know, challenges in working with titanium tubes are around tire clearance and things like that. Yeah. What, what kind of tire clearance can you achieve? Yeah, so we can do pretty much any tire clearance, if you notice on this spike. We have what we call a demi yolk. Yep. And that affords us the same rigidity, excuse me that a full tube would, would offer, but gives us the, the clearance for wide tires.

Like this bike will take up to like a, a 44 millimeter 700 C or a 2.1 up to two inches or 2.1 inches. And if you need to write a double, we can account for that. Typically our stock bikes are just one buys up front. Got it. But we have a lot of room because we're using this demi oak design. And what kind of turnaround time do you look at to get a bike?

Yeah. Right now we're in the roughly eight to 12 weeks, depending on the model. Okay. Yeah. Pretty quick. Yeah. That's great. Thanks Chris. All right.

[00:10:36] B Vivid | Hot Salad Bicycles: Can I get your name and brand? Yes. It's B Vivid from Hot Salad Bicycles B. Where are you building out of? We're here in Portland. Okay. Yeah. And how did you get into Frame Building? Oh, long story. Give us a short version. We can have you back for the long form one. Okay. I used to sit at Destroy Bike Co in the Bay Area and Sean Eagleton was building bikes there and I was like, this is a thing, I can build bikes.

That is absolutely what I'm doing. 15 years later, here I am debuting hot salad bicycles. And I've been chasing welding all over the country. Amazing. So you've built up your expertise and now you're ready to go out with hot salad. Yes, exactly. So you're a custom builder. So talk about the customer journey.

Like how do you like to get to know the customer so that you can build the bike that's right for them? What kind of materials do you use? Yeah, so I build in steel and titanium. And I like to talk to the customer. We have quite a few emails back and forth. I would just wanna know where you're riding.

Like what are you riding on? What do you like to ride fast? Is that a thing? Do what is your current favorite bike that you like to ride? And then what don't you like about that bike? Yeah. Those are the basics. If we're having that conversation, just say, for example I've been on like a random carbon bike, some specialized bike, and I like the way it feels.

Sometimes I, even me, I have a hard time articulating like, what is it that I like or what have I, what I don't like? How do you eke out those qualities that then translate to you as an artisan giving me what I really am expressing? Absolutely. I do some research, right? I go look at that specialized bike and I see what specialize is saying about it.

But I also know the inherent differences between carbon, titanium, steel, right? Titanium is gonna be a little flexer. So if we're trying to make a carbon feel, which is what Rook asked for on her bike you're gonna have to go up a tube size right. And that's gonna make it a little bit stiffer, give you that snappier ride quality of a carbon bike when Ty is so much flexer.

Gotcha. So there's just small things like that where over the years I collected those tidbits from other builders and other people who are willing to gimme time. Amazing. Yeah. And what type of bikes do you like to build? All types. I'm down for the weird ideas. I built that titanium clunker behind you as well that I showed at Philly Bike Expo.

And then this is a beautiful all road that wanted to be a little bit more aggressive because Rook is an excellent rider. And I make commuter bikes. I just making, so it doesn't really matter what type of bike it is. And from a customer interaction, how long does it take to get a bike? Once they've, once you've locked down the design elements of it, you've done your research.

How long does it take to produce a bike and get it back out to the customer? Yeah, probably about a month. And I know that's a long time, but I'm currently doing all of my own finish work as well. So unless you want me to send it to Black Magic or something like that. And then it could be probably as little as two weeks.

And how do you think about finish work? Are you doing your own painting or are you doing anodizing? What kind of options do you make available for customers? Depends on the material, obviously. Yeah. But I have a powder coder who is excellent and he can do fades, he can do sharp lines. And then I also have, I do.

I did the t anodizing on this as well. And then, yeah, those are the two options that I currently offer, but I'm hoping to add wet paint in the nearest future. Okay. Okay. And what's the best way for people to find out more about the brand and your story? Yeah, hot salad bicycles.com. Okay. And are you on Instagram and any, the socials?

I'm hot salad underscore bicycles on Instagram. Got it. Thanks for the time. B Yeah, thank you.

[00:14:06] Chris | Seeker & McGovern: Can I get your name and brand? Chris McGovern. And now what brand are you gonna say? That's my question. We're here with Seeker right now. We do have a McGovern bike in the house, but we're launching Seeker bike company today. Yeah. That's awesome. So McGovern bikes, custom carbon bikes.

Yep. Great looking stuff. You've been building for a while. Yep. But we got these seekers in front of us. So tell me about the brand. The intention and what we're doing here. Yeah. Basically with these metal bikes, the steel and titanium gravel bikes, I'm just trying to get, basically make it more available, get people on bikes, on building more readily available, easier to do.

Obviously the materials are superior. Materials for riding gravel, the carbon customer is a different customer, basically, yeah. Where are you building these bikes? These are be, these are being built in the, in Portland. Oregon. Okay. At the moment they're going to be built in Olympia, Washington eventually.

But yeah, US made, yeah. And what's the customer journey look like? Or do you have stock sizes? Is this a custom jam? Yeah, so we're gonna do stock with custom options, basically. Okay. So the geo will be stock 50 to 60 centimeters and two centimeter increments. But we can customize anything.

So I want you to go to the website, be like, yep, I'm a 54. I want that stock color. I want that build kit. Boom. And we're gonna try to have that two week turnaround. And when I think about my, like tire size desires and things like that, do you have flexibility there or have you built around a particular tire vision?

So the gravel this version of bike is designed around a 45 C 700 by 45 and up to a 46 tooth single ring. So it could be two by or one by. Gotcha. But I want you to be able to do unbound and throw the big meat on if you're rolling, if you're Keegan Swenson or whatever, you wanna roll that big single Yeah.

With the the mullet build or the Explorer build, whatever. Yeah. We want to have that clearance for that. So we've designed around that. Yeah. And you mentioned you're offering a steel bike and a tie bike. What do we see different visually between the two bikes and what sort of adaptations do you make going to tie from the steel?

So on. What we see here basically is the same geometry, same style. We have a different seat stay cluster on this one. I do think that the tie bike will end up being the mono stay, like the steel. Okay. We're just need, we're working on repeatability of that. Tie's a little bit trickier to bend but we're gonna do that, I'm pretty sure.

The same weeding of the tubes, the down tube is swedged for a little bit to the T 47 bottom bracket. So it's a little stiffer, laterally, 44 mil head tubes. The geometry will be very similar. The, if you've ridden tie, the ride quality is a little bit different. Yeah.

Titanium's kind of like air quotes, the forever material. So that's why the tie offering is there. It's a different customer again. Nice. Yeah. Let's talk quickly, Chris, about the origin of the Seeker brand. 'cause I do remember this project at the very earliest start of Covid. Yeah. Lockdowns. Yeah I've, okay.

I've been riding bikes for a million years and your brain goes in weird places when you're riding your bike all the time by yourself. And I've had this saddlebag designed in my head forever, and usually just meant I'd come home from a training ride and get the scissors out and chop on the bag I was currently using.

And during Covid, for whatever reason, I just decided I got on Amazon, ordered a sewing machine, bought some fabric, and started making saddlebag. I love it. And it turned out to be really good. Some people wanted it, so I made some for some friends and then I was like, oh, I'm gonna get some labels. And I actually was labeling them as McGovern cycles thinking, Hey, when someone buys a bike, I'm going to throw a saddle bag in their box.

Yeah. And then bike shops wanted 'em and I was like, ah, it's gotta be something else. So we came up with the seeker logo. I worked on the artwork with Matt Loomis, who's done a bunch of work with Paul Components. We came up with this cool logo. And the people like it. Like we've been selling a lot of t-shirts and stuff and so I felt oh, this branding is strong.

Let's do some bikes. Yeah. I think it's super evocative seeker. Yeah. Exploration. Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Are you I've seen you explore a lot of different bag. Options for your running. Yeah. For various things. Yeah. Are you now just settled on the seat pack as being the one product from Secret?

Oh, no. So it's our only like stock product for the bags right now. I do some top two bags. I do some I call it the rapid response bag, like for racing scenarios, it's like quick to it. I do frame bags. Those are a little bit more custom. They require a template.

Yeah. I build, I built hydration vests. I built. Fast packs. I built backpacks. I'll sew anything really. But I think the secret stuff, we're gonna keep it towards the bike oriented stuff. Possibly. The new website is Secret Adventure Gear, so it's still open-ended. Yeah. You're ready to go?

Yeah. We're ready to go. We're ready for whatever you need. We're ready. I was just gonna ask, what's the best place for people to find out more information about the bikes and the bags? I think right now as the Instagram handle, yeah. Okay. Is a secret At secret, a dv. The website is secret venture gear.com.

Sweet. Yeah. Thanks for sharing this, Chris. Yeah, thank you.

[00:19:07] Nick | Neuhaus: Can I get your name and brand? I'm Nick Newhouse with Newhouse Metalworks. Nick, where are you building out of? We're building out of Novato, California, so Northern Bay Area. Nice. Right up the road from myself in Mill Valley. That's it. I started to hear about your brand through a neighbor in Mill Valley who had one of your hard tail mountain bikes and then later learned you've been doing some gravel bikes.

Can you just talk a little bit about the brand and the type of gravel bikes you're putting out there in the world? Yeah, so we just released this weekend actually our steel anti Tanium drop bar, bike lines. The steel line is the Solana. It'll be available in a road, an all road and a gravel version.

And to pick the part, those three different categories, what do they translate to? Yeah, so the road version will have a 32 C max. It'll fit a double chain ring larger sizes for those longer road rides. The all road model kind of blends a little bit of gravel, a little bit of road, right. It's got a, a little bit of that road geometry.

It'll fit up to a 40 C tire. Still can fit a double chain ring and then the gravel model will go up to a 48 C tire. And it'll be won by specific for those rougher roads, dirt roads, gravel roads wherever you wanna take it. Gotcha. And I interrupted you, I think you were gonna move on to the titanium model over here.

Yeah. So the Eon is our titanium version of that. It'll be offered in the exact same configurations. So you'll have your road, you'll have your all road, and you'll have your gravel. We will also offer the eon in an advanced model, which will be very much a, a custom frame set and a departure from our stock sizing.

And it'll come with three D printed dropouts that are unique to your specific build. Okay. And it does look like on this titanium model, you're doing some unique stuff with three D printing already. Yeah, so we we use three D printing on all of our bikes. You know, it's not a gimmick. We use it to make sure that we're building the best bike for our customers and the best bike that we can possibly put out into the world without you know, going to a point where they're just, you know, this unobtainable price point.

So we always three d print our y yolk. It just, it helps us have flexibility and material choices for rider, weight, size use. We do that on our mountain bikes and all of our drop bar bikes. Got it. And what was, what's sort of the quick origin story of the brand? Yeah, so I've got a a background in motor sports.

I've always kind of just fabricated things. Always been a cyclist, you know, you can't grow up in Marin County and not ride bikes. And a couple years ago people finally just wanted to, you know, they, they were knocking on the door wanting to buy bikes and, you know, I wanted to build good bikes. So, yeah.

Am I correct? The sort of origin started building. Hardtail mountain bikes. Yeah. That's definitely what we're known for. Okay. So our, our hummingbird model, definitely our top seller. Well received, well reviewed and we're just looking to expand that success into the drop bar market. Nice. And working with both titanium and steel, obviously there's different challenges and different learning curve around working with titanium.

Did you start doing titanium on the mountain bikes? We did. Okay. Yeah. So You know, titanium has just always been something that was present, needed to be done. You know, it's like there's a right bike for everybody. There's a right material for everybody based on use, based on needs, based on price point.

The way I like to say it right is your steel bike. It's your Cadillac, C T SS V ride's. Great. You can live with it day to day. It comes in at a good price point. The titanium bike is your Corvette. It's sportier. It's faster, right? You know, maybe not the greatest for taking the family to the park. But it serves a purpose as well.

Got it. What's the customer journey look like for you? If they've discovered the brand, what does it look like from them getting into contact with you for the first time to getting a bike in their door? Yeah, so we really try to maintain the quickest lead time possible. Right now we're at four months. Our throughput is very high.

We have a very manufacturable process right there in Marin County. If a customer wants a bike, they have options. You can order a bike on our website. You can order your build kit on our website. You can email us, we can help you with sizing. It's really, you know, the door is open to, to the customer experience that's desired.

Okay, gotcha. Cool. Well I look forward to seeing you later this year at Adventure Revival Ride. Yeah. With the Marin County Bike Coalition and definitely have to check out your facility at some point. Definitely, yeah, we'll be moving into a new shop shortly and we plan to have an open house, so we'd love to have you there.

Fantastic, thanks. Thank you.

[00:23:28] Kyle | Pinebury: Can I get your name and the brand? Kyle Rancourt. And the brand is Pine. Berry. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're showing here from Pine Berry? Yeah. We make lightweight Marino, wool cycling apparel and active wear. Nice. And where are you manufacturing? In Massachusetts. Our first production one was made in Massachusetts and we're also manufacturing in Allentown, Pennsylvania and Hilderbrand North Carolina for our, our knitwear.

And when did you launch the brand? April, 2023. Okay. April of this year. Yeah. And what was it about wool and the type of wool you're using that inspired you to go on this journey and start the brand? I wanted to, mainly, I wanted to make the cycling apparel and active wear that I wanted to wear. And I fell in love with lightweight, you know, performance Marino wool a long time ago.

And I haven't seen anybody really in the industry focus on that. It always seems like. It's sort of an afterthought for some of the brands, like they'll have a small collection or a piece or two. And so when doing research before starting this brand, I discovered this amazing fabric in, in yarn manufacturer outta New Zealand called New Yarn.

Okay? They have a patented yarn spinning technology. It's twist free spinning. So when you, when you spin merino yarn and it gets twisted, you take out a lot of the natural benefits of the fiber. You reduce elasticity, durability, and loft. And so breathability and new yarn with their twist free spinning they're, they're able to make a fabric that's almost nine times more durable.

It has 85% more elasticity. It's five times faster drying, and the list goes on. It sounds like it just, Supercharges what we know about wool to begin with. Exactly. That's the perfect way to put it. So is it, is it still considered Marino wool or is this like an entirely new word we need to learn? That's a great question.

I still refer to it as Marino wool. Okay. But new yarn kind of is, is branding it as performance wool. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting, you know, you were talking about building this brand around. Sort of purpose-built cycling clothing. And those was that was the cycling clothing you'd wanted to wear and Yeah.

Yeah. My experience, like I, I love Marino. I kind of think about it from a hiking perspective and went on a bike packing trip and wanted to wear a t-shirt, so I grabbed a hiking Marino wool wool shirt. So it's super cool that you're focused on kind of cycling as your core market. Obviously the clothing works everywhere else.

Yeah. Do you wanna talk a little bit about, it seems like you have both kind of performance tees. As well as jerseys, right? Yeah. Yeah. And actually I like that you brought that up. 'cause I, I wanted to make a point there about our performance tees. Even though they are meant for sort of all sports and all outdoor activities, they have some elements of, of cycling built into them.

Like they're a bit longer than a typical tee. They're longer in the back than they are in the front. And actually I'm working on developing a tee that would have a. A zippered pocket in the back of it. Okay. Like a pullover tea that has a zippered pocket. So, nice. Yeah. What's the best way for people to learn more about the brand and the products?

It go to our website, pine Bury Us. We have a ton of information on there. We have a whole page dedicated to new yarn. We have a whole page dedicated to our story, you know, in, in addition to domestic manufacturing, all our products remain in the us. We're also plastic free. All of our packaging and shipping materials are plastic free and recyclable.

And we have, you know, a real commitment to like sustainability in the environment. I love it. And are people ordering directly from your website today? Yeah. You can order directly and we ship anywhere in the world. Okay. Yeah. One of the final questions I'll ask you is, you know, oftentimes I think in, at least in my mind, historically, will got, will got, will got categorized as something that I'm gonna wear when it's cold.

Yeah. Great. Can you dispel or affirm that statement? No, that's a great question. It is not just for cold weather. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna underline that we are actually specializing in lightweight wool that can be worn year round. In spring 24. We'll have an ultra light Marino that would, will blow people away at how light and fast drying it is and could be worn in, in the hottest of climates.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew that. I was teasing a little bit. Because I'm with you. It's like, I remember on that bike packing trip, it was quite hot on during the days, and it's just a great material in terms of how it handles moisture, how it dries, how it feels, and I'm, I'm a little bit surprised more people don't understand that and embrace it.

Right. My, my favorite way to put this is to get in a little, a little like sciency here. Our body's cooling system is evaporative, right? We're evaporative cooling system. So you heat up, you sweat. The, the, the sweat captures heat and when it evaporates, it carries the heat away from your body. So you want a garment that's gonna support that system.

Marina wool is by far the best to do that. It is, it's able to wick moisture away from the body at the vapor stage, so before it turns into a liquid. So that's why it can dry fast five times faster than synthetics or conventional Marino. Yeah, this new yard Marino. Awesome. Thanks for sharing all that.

Yeah, thank you.

[00:28:39] Rich | Circa: All right. Can I get your name and the brand? My name is Rich Fox and I'm the founder of Circa Cycles in Portland, Oregon. You beat me to my next question, which is, where are you building? We're in Portland right now. And you're a Portland based builder? We are, yeah. We've been doing this in Portland for, I started the company 10 years ago.

The first two years we're pretty much r and d. As you can see we do things a little bit differently than some folks do, and the first couple of years were just spent basically in our underground lab. And we always with the same, we will get into what is different about these bikes, but using this same technique from the get go, the underlying philosophy.

Yes. There were some things we and the first generation prototypes definitely are different from where we ended up. Sure. So why don't you talk about, the attributes of the bike that make it different than almost anything I've seen today. Oh, okay. Sure. So what you're looking at is a bonded anodized aluminum.

Lugged frame. So we're anodized lugged and bonded aluminum. And which you can also laser etch into, which is also another fun thing that you brought. Pretty amazing finishes I see over there in the corner. Thanks. So when we talk about lugs, and I did talk to another builder who was working with lugs, which were the much more traditional style that my father's road bike has, we're definitely not talking about those type of lugs here.

We're talking about a lot more substantial. Parts of the bike in your version of a lug? Yeah. In, I guess I'd have to, I'd have to ask you what stands out as how sub What do you mean by substantially? I think this sort of oversize nature, like it appears to the naked eye. Oh, okay. That almost the entire kind of seat collar area that's joining the top tube and the seat tube is one large lug rather than a petite.

Crafted one that got TIG welded. Okay. Yeah. There are a few things going on. So as I was, when we'd made the decision to get away from welding altogether and work with the bonded assembly, we knew that we would, we'd also made the decision around the same time that if we're gonna bond, we're gonna have to create our own lug system.

If we're gonna create our own lug system, it's gotta be. Because, and we would've to create our own lug system because it'd have to be something that Maxim maximizes the performance characteristics of the adhesive systems that we're gonna be using. So there's nothing off the shelf that you can buy that's going to do that.

So we'd have to engineer a solution that would handle that for us. Along the way we decided, okay, we don't want to cast those lugs because the general volume strategies around bike frame manufacturing and the way that things. Change over even the way that angles change across size variations in a frame.

'cause they don't scale geometrically or logically in a way. Yeah. We would have to, we would need some kind of a lug manufacturing strategy that would be able to do lower volume and give us incredibly precise control over certain aspects. For example, the tube to the tube to lug interface we need.

Super, super tight control at that bond gap. Yeah. And we'd also really need to understand a lot about the bond surfacing itself. So the reason those lugs are somewhat beefy is that a few things are going on. One is that we are trying to maximize contact area for the bond. Yeah for the bond.

Two, we are solving a problem of We want the thing to look stout. Yeah. You in the way early days of of deciding what we were doing, there were prototypes that we put in front of people that's, and they said, oh, that looks fragile. And if you're already doing something that's a bit unique and a little bit quite, is off the beaten trail to some re in some respects, you need to do a.

W put some extra design work into a SW and keep things that people might be concerned over. So what type of technique are you using, say, for this head tube? Are you machining that out of a block of aluminum? Yes. Everything, all of the connectives on the frame. So all of the lugs, the dropouts any connectives on the seat stays, et cetera.

Those are all proprietary things that we've designed, engineered in c and seeded from solid blocks of aluminum billet. Gotcha. I'm using a combination of three, four, and five axis. C N C machines. Yeah. It's interesting when you look at the junction up here on the C tube connecting these tubes in that bolted in right.

Does that sort of create limitations around the sort of tire diameters that you can achieve for a gravel bike? No. No. That's definitely that. While there are certain areas on this, the frame that we're looking at right now, that might be a little, that might have a restriction for what you can do that's not the, that's not the, that's not the area.

Okay. So that particular solution that's going on there is driven by the fact that the C NNC work that we do, the precision the complexity of the parts, the precision of the details, the quality of the finish work that we're trying to achieve makes those parts. And at a volume that we're not a hundred thousand a year manufacturer.

Yeah. The volumes that we're working at makes those parts pretty expensive. So ultimately we have to find ways. Of elegantly identifying components in the frame assembly that we can do in higher volumes so that we can offset the cost. So at the top of the seat stays those plugs, you'll see the same part.

This is the same part as what's on the other side, it's mirror. Yeah. So that's two of, two of the same part on the same frame. That's good. But now I can use that same part on any on any frame size. Gotcha. Which gives me some extra flex, so all of a sudden I can really amortize out the cost of that part across lots of different frame sizes.

Yeah, I feel like this is a bike that needs to be seen to be best understood, to Definitely encourage listeners to go and check out the show notes and find a link to circa bicycles. Ride circa.com. Right on. And yeah, just as far as like the customer journey goes, if once someone discovers the brand, what does it look like to get a bike underneath them?

Are you building fully custom bicycles or is it a stock range? We don't do, we found that we don't really need to do fully custom. Yeah. An interesting byproduct of our manufacturing strategy is that because we have this modular kit of parts, essentially that we've developed over time is that it lets us, our, we consider it we have three, three fit options.

Essentially, we have a standard geo which is suited towards. The majority of the population from a arm and leg and torso length Yeah. Standpoint. But we also are really easily able to create a long reach or a short reach version of the same design. Yeah. And that's basically a free thing. So we're essentially doing semi-custom geometry for free.

If you do have a fit scenario where you need to be upright or you want to be more if you have a long torso. A short torso. Yeah. Or you have some kind of a, a. Physical limitation if you have less mobility in your back or more mobility. Yeah. If you needed a sort of a higher stack would you adjust the machined head tube to achieve that?

Or is that not an area that you adjust? It's typically not necessary. Okay. We, our size range right now is pretty broad. Our, we have the, our platform goes from an what we call our extra small, which Although you can't see it in our conversation here, this is the seat tube for our extra small, okay.

Which is for those folks listening imagine basically something about the length of A B M X seat tube. So we created that for a rider who had, I think she required a 711 millimeter standover. It's either seven 11 or eight 11. One of those, okay. But very super short stand. So we created like a 17 degree sloping top tube for her.

And but now that's become our extra small platform. Nice. Covers a pretty petite rider. And then our extra large platform goes up to 6 3, 6 4 riders. Okay. So between that size range and the ability to pull the cock pin in and out we feel like we do a pretty good job of accommodating most.

G I'm sure most fit requirements. Super cool. And what is the typical turnaround time? It depends on on load at any given time, but bare minimum is six weeks. And that just depends, but that's bare minimum. And it can go out to two to three months depending, but sell them longer than that.

The only time we've ever had something that really stretched. Was during the nightmare of Covid times. Yeah. And nobody could get any parts. Yeah. So the frames would be done and we'd be sitting around really hoping our order from shaman or RA would show up of course. Which they never did well.

Super striking bikes and encourage people to go take a look at 'em. Thanks for the time. Thank you so much for paying attention for for Karen.

[00:37:22] Devin | Story Street: Can I get your name and the brand? Yeah. My name is Devin Ross and I am the owner and the builder for Story Street cycles. How did you get started building? I've been working in the ski in the in and the bike industry since about 2006, and most of my experience was through on the service side of things and retail and sales.

Kind of on a whim back in 2015, decided to take a frame building. Course at U B I in Ashland and kind of really enjoyed it and started doing some more kind of small custom building for friends and family. And over the last few years have developed that into kind of our first run of production, small batch frames.

We do a. All road frame and then an all mountain frame. Cool. Let's talk about this all road frame. Does it have a, a, a sort of model name or just your all road? It's just the ar. Okay. I have the AR and the am What are you building this frame out of? So the frame is out of steel. It is kind of a combination of Columbus steel and a little bit of the kasai tubing from Japan.

The All of the hardware and all of the small components such as the head tube, the bottom bracket, and dropouts are all from Paragon Machine Works. And then the finishing kits kind of are all the color matched options from Wolf Tooth. And what size wheel are you running on this bike? This current one is a six 50 B with 2.1 tires on there.

Okay. The general frames are, Designed with clearance up to 45. I think usually like a 38 to a 42 for a lot of this type of riding is kind of the sweet spot. But we can, we got clearance and everything to go up to some bigger options. Nice. And what's sort of the, the customer journey when they discover you?

You mentioned you've sort of brought a small batch phenomenon. Mm-hmm. So you have a handful of bikes in stock. You typically try to fit them on one of those models and Yes. So we do. On the all road side, we have a 52, 54, 56, and 58 in the pre-made ones. The frames are all kind of built and welded and ready to go.

And then when a customer is ready to to purchase them, then we will kind of figure out what the overall paint scheme and the the highlight. So the, all of the frames are gonna be painted, are gonna be powder coated to the customer specification. And then all of the finishing kit and everything, our decals, we try to go along the same kind of seven standard colors that wolf tooth does, just to make all of the, the matching and everything like that make your accessorizing easy.

So that way we can still get the, the same custom kind of one of a kind finish that that people can get with choosing their color and choosing their finishing kit without the the longer lead time. For a full custom build. If people are still interested in doing kind of their own custom geometry we see that a lot with people looking for a little bit taller of a head tube.

A lot of times people that have maybe longer torsos, shorter legs and stuff, we still do offer those options to do a fully custom in either of our. Or All Road or, or All Mountain. Okay. And if people wanna find more out about the brand, how do they find you? So we're on Instagram at story street cycles and then our website is story street cycles.com.

Awesome. Thank you. Cool.

[00:40:55] Paul | Pauls Components: Yeah. Can I get your name and company? Paul Price Paul Component Engineering. Good to meet you Paul. And you too. Thanks. Yeah. I know you've been around the industry for a long time making beautiful componentry outta California. The one area I wanted to talk to you about though are these clamper disc brakes cable actuated, disc brakes.

It's something I've long seen on some of the sexiest bikes around, but misunderstood because I had some old, I won't name the brand. Mechanical disc brakes. That really didn't serve me well. This is true. This, yeah. The the cable breaks were always for the cheap bikes and there's certain advantages for cable breaks.

And I knew when we developed this thing that there had to be some people that just wanted to keep it simple, but really wanted a really good product and didn't necessarily enjoy bleeding their breaks that much. Yeah. And how, how are you able to achieve. The stopping power of a hydraulic brake with a cable actuated brake.

That took about three years and about 10,000 prototypes. But we just make everything to a much tighter tolerance, like we just made it as good as we can. All those other cheap brakes come from Taiwan and everything is just smashed and squished to, to get made. We actually machine to very tight tolerances, so everything fits together really nice.

We also bolted up a little bit and figured out a way to just get tons of power out of it. It go ahead And does it mount in the exact same fashion as a hydraulic disc brake would on my bike exactly the same. Exactly. The mounting is exactly the same. Yeah. Okay. And do the different levers have different poll ratios that you need to consider?

This is important. Yeah. The long pole lever, which was, is a v brake lever that's called a long pole. And then you can buy the clamper with that arm or a shorter arm for like your road bike levers and your short pole levers. We make something called a cantilever. And then we also make a camp campy version because it pulls a completely different amount of cable as well.

And are those. Completely different versions of the brake bracket itself, or are they just a component? No. To you buy the brake, which is not cheap. But you can just change one part to change to match any lever that's around. Got it. And are we using a typical brake pad, disc brake pad in Yeah the pad is a, is came out of an avid model that.

It fits a whole bunch of different breaks and we just wanted to pick something to where you could go in a bike shop in the middle of, the desert or New York City or wherever and they're gonna have some pads in stock, so that's not a problem. Going back to my cable pole, breaks of my mountain bike of yester year.

Yeah. Now I remember cable stretch needed to be adjusted. Obviously you've got brake pads that'll burn out a little bit. Yeah. How do I deal with that with a clamper product? You first thing you do is you install 'em and then you go on three bike rides. And what that does is it moves all the grease around that's inside all the parts which fit very well together, all get cozy together and the the pads bed into the, to the rotor real nice.

And after that, your housing is compressed as it's gonna get your cable stretched on the initial stretch. And you're good to go. And one of your colleagues was showing me a little micro adjust you could do on it, that it seemed like it would tighten the pad up. Is that right? Yeah, both sides, there's adjustment which you can actually do on the road or trail, which is a really nice feature.

Absolutely. Yeah. What's the best way for people to find out about Paul's components? Paul comp.com. P a u l c o m p.com. And And check that out. Send us an email, give us a call if you have any questions. Perfect. Thank you. You're welcome.

[00:44:45] Aaron | Stinner Frameworks: All right. Can I get your name and brand? Yeah. Aaron Stenner Frameworks. Nice, Aaron. And where do you guys build out of? We are in Santa Barbara, California. Nice. And how long have you guys been building? I've been building full-time since 2012. And current team's been in place since 2 20 15.

How did you get into it in the first place? I was managing a bike shop and running a pretty robust like fit department, so we were doing a lot of fitting. And I ended up going to U B I to just learn a little bit more about frame building and why angles and why this and why that. And so I learned how to build bike at U B I and I came back and people heard that I knew how to build frames and it just snowballed from there.

Yeah, that seems to be the way it works. It's friends and family. Yeah. Then extended friends. And then maybe I got a business on my hands. Exactly. Yeah. So then were you building with steel at that point? Yeah, primarily steel. And I started doing like lug bikes and braised bikes and then morphed into TIG welding.

And we've been doing primarily TIG welding bikes since 2013. And are the bikes typically custom built for the customer or is are you doing small batch? So we do we don't we build the order, so we don't have any inventory, but we do have sizing, size models. So we do have a 52, 54, 56 kind of model based and we are model based, meaning like we have a gravel frame model and we have a road model.

So model based, we have sizes, but we can do custom geometry depending on what you need. And then we have a paint program that's similar where we have pre-picked schemes or pre-designed schemes, and then you can iterate and design within that. Gotcha. Yeah, I've seen a lot of really stunning sinners out there on the roads.

Thank you. Which is great. What is this bike that we're looking at today? Yeah, so we have the, our new Refugio. So we've, our Ravel bike has been our refugio for many years. And this one, The big upgrades is we went from a 45 C tire to now being able to fit a 50 C tire. Brilliant. Keeping Our chain stays still relatively short.

These are at like 4 28. And we have U D H compatibility, so running the universal STR universal trailer hanger. And it also still work with a transmission drive train. So on this bike we have transmission on the rear like a road oriented crank set up front with a 42 tooth train ring. So you get this like really nice wide range. Mountain bike, road meets, road bike compatibility build, buildable. Yeah. Model. Those are our big changes. So U D H and 50 C tire. And then we also are integrating all of our cables internally now on Okay. Gravel frames as well. And that's a dumb question. As you've built a frame like that, you're committed, you gotta go inside.

At that point. Yeah, to a degree. And that's kind of stuff we're working on. So like right now yeah you more or less need to pick a bar, stem and headset that worked that way. I think everybody's learning that this is a nice way to route this stuff. So we are we do also have the ability to run like regular external cables and just have 'em drop into the top of the headset as well.

Okay. So you could run traditional parts as well. Okay. Yeah. So both work. So you don't have to commit only to one one style. Gotcha. And what does the customer journey look like once they discover you? Like how much interaction are you having with me as a customer prior to ordering? And then what does that timeline look like to get a bike these days?

Yeah, so we have we just launched a configurator like literally last Wednesday. We've been working on it for about a year. So you can actually go on and design your pain scheme, build out your bike online and get a live quote and So you could have a very hands-off approach if you're that type of customer.

But we also, our email's on there, we have a contact form right there. If you have any questions, you have any concerns, you can just email us in. Yeah. And we're happy to answer any questions. And we do everything from the configurator, which is pre-picked, more or less to full-blown custom if you want it.

The configurator will give you a very guided tour of costing. And then if you want to go full custom, that's more of a conversation to have. Yeah. Gotcha. Just pick your own adventure. I feel like every time I come across a bike customizer, I lose tens of minutes of my life dreaming, changing, going backwards and forwards to try to find something wonderful.

Yeah. Yeah. That was the idea is we wanted people that don't want to email in or don't have the time to do the emailing. Yeah. We wanted to give 'em a tool that they could sit out at the end of the night and play around with and get an idea about our brand and what things cost and what we're all about without having to have a direct conversation.

But we're there and we're ready when they want to have that conversation. Yeah. Awesome. So remind us, how do we find you? Yeah, so Entner Frameworks is our website just tinder frameworks.com. We're on Instagram sinner frameworks. Those are our two main points of contact. And yeah, let us know if you have any questions.

Perfect. Thanks for the time. Awesome, thank you.

[00:49:12] Thomas | Horse Cycles: Can I get your name and brand? Thomas Callahan Horse Cycles. Thomas, how long have you been building under the Horse cycles brand? 17 years. Amazing. Yeah. What got you started to begin with? I was doing sculpture fine art, so I had a studio and was ready to commit to a nicer bike and decided to make the tooling and buy the tooling to build my own bike rather than invest in a, I think I was looking at Italian track bikes at the time.

Okay. And then people just started to ask me to build them bikes, which was really great. 'cause I wasn't, it was hard to fine art wasn't super accessible, conceptual fine art wasn't super accessible to a larger audience. Yeah. Yeah. Super cool. And what's the bike that we're looking at today?

Are you all custom or do you have sort of product models? Yeah, they're product models, which is really nice. It's like a really good base to work from. So even the custom stuff, usually there's a platform, all road platform, a road platform, a mountain platform. From there we go. Custom. This is a fully custom tie bike.

This is tie number five. And it's a all road adventure bike. It's got the envy adventure fork on it, tapered head tube super supple Vermont Rider customer. So yeah, it's got a SCO fade from the head tube back and yeah. It's beautiful. Have you been working with Titanium for a while? I've been working with it for about five years.

Just, before I put it out in the universe just to make sure that I have the confidence and the skills and was playing around with it. 'cause I wasn't sure I really wanted to go that way. But it's a fun material to grow into. You just really wanna make sure that you're doing it properly and what does a customer journey look like?

If they wanted to work with you, just people reach out. Get some more info about the process, get on the website, talk about their needs and see if, it would work out. And usually around four months lead time and do a lot of full builds. But I really love connecting with people.

That's one of the best parts other than being able to work with my hands is really connecting with people. To build something together. And that connection is really why I do what I do, yeah. 'cause, people are great. It's such a great journey as a customer, working with a builder to express like our collective vision for this bike.

Yeah. And then receive it. I imagine that you get a lot of love back from customers. Yeah, I do. And really the people that I'm able to work with, first of all, I'm so appreciative. Because it takes a lot of effort for customers, but they're really amazing people. The industry is great 'cause, it's a BA based on physical and mental fitness, and that's usually provides a pretty positive, personal platform and, they're good solid folks.

So a hundred percent. If people wanna find out more about horse cycles, where do they go? They can go to horse cycles.com, they can go to my Instagram horse cycles, gimme a phone call, reach out. I'm, I'm there and I'm not going anywhere. Perfect. Thanks for the time. Thank you.

[00:52:13] Jonathan | Frameworks: Can I get your name and, and company? Yeah. I'm Jonathan from Framework Bicycles. We're based outta Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Nice. And how long have, have you guys been around? We've only been building bikes for about one year now, but my wife and I own and operate an aerospace tool and die shop Gotcha.

For about 11 years. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Why you have the capability to do these amazing and aluminum lugs that we're looking at. That to me are like sort of one of the more striking features of the bike. Thank you. Do you wanna just kind of describe how this bike is constructed in the tubes and it lugs?

Yeah, so I guess we use a hybrid construction method that's not unique to us right now. Like Bastion's doing it, Atherton's doing it. Pivot just did it with that full suspension bike. I know you're a gravel guy, but we machine bill it aluminum lugs and wind filament wound carbon tubes in house that are bladder molded and cured in in mold.

And then we bonded together. Essentially, the joint details are all handled by the C N C machine. Okay. So you've got sort of the, the joints of the bike, if you will, with these aluminum lugs that you're machining, and then in between carbon fiber tubes. Yep. And you were, you were mentioning that you have the ability to kind of customize the carbon fiber tools for the cust Yeah.

Tubes. Yeah, the tubes. So we, we have a couple main things we can change. Everything we do is inside of a three D modeling software. So each bike is a total one-off. It's parametrically modeled. So we enter your fit data tire clearance, all that kind of stuff. The CAD model updates from there. So if I, if I needed sort of a, a taller head tube would Yep, totally.

Would that translate into, yeah, we, we would look at, well the combination of top tube drop head tube, it's gonna change everything in the back of the bike from their back, right? Yep. So we'd look at your touch points for the bars, head tube lengths from there also with the four you wanna run. So that's gonna give you that dimension there on the head tube.

And then, Even things like where these joints intersect one another, we can control that. So say you were a small rider and this tires getting too close to the down tube, we can actually bring that up a bit. Gotcha. Yeah. Gotcha. And what kind of, if I came to you, what kind of modifications do you consider for the tubing on the carbon fiber side?

If it was a super heavy rider? Super tall rider? Yeah. Wall thickness is like, we can change tube diameters too. So I would say there's two spectrums. If you're a really small rider, you don't need like a really round, big round tube. It's too much for you. Yeah, so my wife, like for example, I run a smaller down tube on that so that the shape, the size of the tube and the shape is your main driver in terms of strength.

From there, what we tune is wall thickness, so how many layers of carbon we put into each tube, and then below that is the fiber orientation. Because we're C N C, winding them, we can whine for torsional strength, bending, stiffness, anywhere in that spectrum to give the different compliance in the frame where you need it.

Since it's a somewhat novel approach to frame construction. Yeah. How do you describe to customers or would be customers, what the ride quality might feel like on this bike? It's hard. So we do have some bikes out for review with media outlets right now, but they're custom bikes that are built for those people.

Yeah. So they, they'll ride it, but it's like, if I made you a bike for your fitting, it's gonna be a bit different. So what I would describe it as is kind of picking the best of all worlds. You get some damping from the way the joints go together. You still have the kind of lightness and strength of carbon fiber, but with none of the chatter or buzz or like squeak in the bottom bracket.

'cause everywhere we're interfacing metal parts, it's going to a metal part on our bike. Okay. So really stiff bottom bracket shelf. And it they ride really quietly. Yeah. Someone else had mentioned that. You know, this type of joint juncture up here does add a lot of rigidity to how the stays come into the tube here.

Like this detail here. Yeah. Yeah. So what we do to try to get some of that back is, I'm a big proponent of top tube drop. Like basically the, the stick out of your seat tube, your ride perception is gonna be way more on how your saddle's moving back and forth with frame flex than anything happening in the frame.

So that's why people are playing with things like the drop stays. To try to get that to bend in like an SS shape a little bit. Yeah. But if you just make this cantilevered bar longer, you're gonna get way more comfort from that. Got it. That's basically the easiest way to do it. What does the customer journey look like to discover you and how do they find you?

And then what does it look like from there If you wanna purchase the bike? Yeah. 'cause we're super active on Instagram. That's basically how most people have found us. I'm big on just sharing process stuff while I'm in the shop. People either love it or at least they'll like check it out quickly and come back like a month from then.

So I'm on stories all the time showing how we machine stuff, how we make the equipment that makes the bikes. So pretty much right now we're trying to get set up with a couple shops, but we're direct to consumer. Yeah. So it's reach out to us. I'll email you back. We typically recommend that if you're not very confident about your fit, like where your touch points are on the frame that you work with the fitter local to you.

Yeah. Send us that detail. The discussion from there is what type of bike are you looking for? Road bike, gravel bike in that spectrum. Mountain bike. So your touch points and the style of bike you want kind of dictate the geometry we go to from there and then it's ticket deposit and we ship you a bike in like four to eight weeks.

Super cool. Tell me the website and Instagram handle framework bicycles.com and on Instagram where framework bikes. Awesome. Thanks.

[00:57:29] Zack | Bosch: Can I get your name and the brand you represent? Sure. Zach Kreel and Vapor Propulsion Labs. We do Bosch, pinion, supernova, and three by three hubs. Right on. So Bosch has been making electric bicycle motors for how long? Gen One came out in Europe in 2010. Started working with 'em in 2009 over a 18 month period of time to, to work on that project.

Gotcha. Yeah. What's been curious to me is obviously, like many of us are aware of the bigger brands doing e-bikes in their lineup, but over the last few years I've started to see builders like Jeremy CIP build with your product. So building, a custom bike effectively. Yeah. And accommodating the Bausch motor in the bottom of it.

How does that come to be and what kind of trends do you see in that area? Yeah, so we, we are definitely seeing the custom handmade guy come and express interest. A lot of times there is this misconception that this is way complicated and in general you're replacing the BB with a motor node that can be welded in just like a BB shell can and you're accommodating that.

And we try to cut the red tape for the handmade guys to be able to make sure, or to reassure them. That this is pretty easy. So yeah, when you see from an engineering standpoint, from a bill of material of the electric standpoint, all that stuff, we hold their hand to to get them to make the first one, and then they're ready to roll.

Yeah. When you see the raw frames that they're producing, it's obvious oh, you can just bolt the engine there on the bottom, and that part's clear. But as you look at what's required to kind of function and power and control the motor, There's more to it than that. So what are the other components of the system that they need to be thinking about as they're building these bikes?

Well, a lot of times, you'll think about the end consumer and you'll say, okay, is this gonna be, for somebody that is running a cargo bike, if it's a, if it's a touring, a gravel rig, if it's a, if's a's pavement bike, if it's a car, alternative bike, those particular frame builders will potentially.

Alter the gauge of their tubing. Potentially. It depends on how much load is on it, but that end customer is driving where these will go. And from our standpoint the Bosch system is super robust. It's tested all the way to E M T V standards now and that typically works for everything that everybody in this building is gonna make.

What kind of controls are necessary to connect to the motor? So the motor, the botch system is a, it's a closed system. So there's basically, the hardest system is the motor connected to the battery, and then there's the display. The motor has the brains inside there. It measures the human input at a thousand times a second, roughly.

So super fast. And then it it connects to the battery. There's a communication between battery and motor, and then there's also communication to the. To the head unit or your smartphone, all of that stuff is, its ecosystem and they're all required to have on the bike itself. And is it a pedal assist system?

So it's just adding wattage to my It is, yeah. Personal output. So it measures your input super super accurately. And then you level, you choose the level of assistance eco up to turbo and eco's, like 50% of your input turbo is up to 400% of your input. Gotcha. And I see behind us. It's not only a tandem, it's a triple.

Is that right? Yes, that is right. So that's a, that's our concept bike. My daughter's the one who's gonna be in the middle there. So lucky her. That particular rig is cool because the middle stoker, that section of the frame can be removed and then it can turn into a tandem. That's incredible. We brought that one here for frame builders to see as like the most complicated bike that they could ever imagine.

And then give them the perspective of okay, a single is super simple compared to that. Yeah. And is there's just one, is there just one Bausch engine in that bike? Yep. Okay. Yeah. And it's a, that's a dual battery. There's a three by three internal gear hub in the back with e shift. So electronic shifting, there's a Bluetooth wireless controller to the bar for shifting.

There's also a Bluetooth wireless Bosch sensor on the bar to change your level of assist. And then of course it's full belt driven. The Captain Stoker one and Stoker two are all in times. It's a lot going on that rig. That's super cool. As listeners are interested in exploring Bausch products what are the brands other than the custom brands that you typically see them in?

So you'll see Bosch on some of the brands like Trek that, that are doing many thousands of of e-bikes a year. You'll see them on. Niche products like CoMotion got a tandem. You'll see them on Terra t Trike or Cat trike. Recumbent Tricycles. There's also other custom guys right now like Cycle Chinook over in Vermont and Firefly in, in Massachusetts.

So there this kind of craft built market is starting to come up. Quickly. Yeah. I think it's gonna be an interesting trend to watch because Absolutely. It makes sense. If you're someone who loves bikes and you wanna get a bike built from your favorite builder, but you've found eist to be what you need for whatever reason or what you want.

Yeah. Like why not get it from your favorite builder? Yeah. We like this Portus mid in Germany that's That's a cargo rig, it's purpose built for cargo. The omnium behind me is similar to that, and it tends to start to broaden people's horizons of okay, I can dish my car, I can be empowered a little bit more, but being able to haul more stuff and it it just in, in my opinion it's a great thing for the market.

If people find Bausch online, do you help them find builders who are. Our building with it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So some, sometimes the end consumer's, the one who, who goes up to somebody like a breadwinner or you name the builder and say, Hey I'd really like to have a an e-bike system, and can you put me on the list?

That, that pressure helps. And then we talk and we talk with those those builders and make sure that they're equipped to be able to. Build that first bike and all the other ones after that. Yeah. Super cool. Thanks for the time. Yeah. Yeah, you bet.

[01:03:33] Randall, Sam and Craig: All right. I'm here at the tail end of my day at the Made Bike Show in Portland, Oregon. Ran into Randall and Sam from Logos and Thesis Bikes. I thought it'd be cool since I had you guys to just talk about, what are some things that stood out to you today. We've, the listener, will have just heard a bunch of conversations I've had along the way, but just zooming out, I know it's fresh in our minds.

What inspired you? What, what got you stoked today? There are a ton of incredible bikes all under one very big roof over here. But one of the, one of the builders that I was really excited to check out coming into this show was framework Bikes out of nearby Toronto, Canada. And they've been sharing their road up to Maid and the process that goes into the refinement of their new bike project in incredible detail with a ton of transparency.

Which has been really interesting to watch. Totally. I, of all the bikes I've seen here, that one and the one from circa using similar technology was the ones that were the most thought provoking for me. Just this idea of a new approach to lugs combined in their case with carbon fiber, which they're working on in-house in their facility there.

It just fascinated me to think about what would those ride qualities be of a bicycle like that? Super striking to look at, but how will it ride? Yeah, and they're taking a construction process that we saw decades ago and unfortunately went really awry with alloy lugs and carbon tubes.

Back in the day it was something that was tested out and there were a lot of failures associated with the bonding agents and galvanic corrosion and it's really cool to watch as he, he navigates that using his aerospace background. To introduce production techniques that like plating his lugs and using three M glass microspheres, ak fancy sand to make sure that the tubes are perfectly spaced and have good bonding all the way around to make for a really reliable and durable product.

Because you know a lot of people who live through the era of the carbon tubed allo frames. Grew to know them as pretty scary, but it seems like the attention to detail that he is brought is gonna make them reconsider their aspersions. Yeah, I was actually very impressed with that as well.

It was my first introduction. I haven't been following them and the the amount of precision that he's able to accomplish in his machining. And then dealing with things like galvanic corrosion through those, those little glass globules, which I believe are hollow too not hollow. They offer them, they, they do make them hollow, but he's using a solid microsphere because he needs that compressive strength.

Got it. And I had one of the original cannondale system sixes, which was also aluminum exposed aluminum lugs with a, some mechanical interlace with the carbon tube coming in. And I had galvanic corrosion issues. And the way that he's doing the plating to reduce the, what is it, the galvanic potential across.

And then also that glass layer. I mean we put fiberglass in our frames on any interface with aluminum specifically to deal with that galvanic corrosion issue. Just so to see that level of precision and attention to detail and addressing the primary concerns with that type of construction was super cool to see, especially from a small small builder.

Yeah, I think my first road bike was a giant carbon fiber tubes with aluminum lugs, and it was the wiest thing I ever rode. So this is going back 25 plus years. So I'm glad to see the technology evolve and as we said, it's a striking look visually for the bike. Yeah. I've always loved the look of that and it's nice that he's just taken it so far and to the extent that he's winding his own tubes, single strand of carbon fiber being wound on A C N C or lathe, I think.

And and then being transferred to a mole to get really good resin extraction. Pressurized at, I think 400 p ss i to really get like every drop of excess resin and all of the voids pressed out of it. I think he's he is gonna be producing an incredibly high quality product. Nice. What else is on your list, Sam, on not the other end of the spectrum, but a very different end of things.

I believe it's to is out of Austin, Texas and they're making these stunningly beautiful steel bikes. Where they're adorned with beautiful beautiful small illustrations throughout the frames. All of these, all these I mean it's like almost like little tattoos on the bike in a way.

Yeah. Some of them three dimensional, some of them not. Yeah. And also doing accessories that are being handcrafted like bells. And these bar ends and top caps that are inlaid with beautiful turquoise. It. It's like an level of artistry that you don't see too often. I think calling them an accessories is not even it's bicycle jewelry.

Yeah. Like some of, he had some headset spacers that I could imagine around, around my finger, right? As a ring. Like really that sort of gorgeous attention to detail. I really wanted some of his stuff on my bike. It was very inspiring. And the bikes also look like, of course, they're super well, designed and fabricated and they should ride.

Fantastically too. But yeah, really taking things in a very different direction than, the fighter jet aesthetic that the big brands have been been doing for a long time and taking things in a much more painterly and it's not, I don't wanna say quaint, but it's very charming.

Nice. And do you have a third on your list? It's, I would say it's impossible to pick, a top three out of all of 'em. But I do think it's worth calling out a hot salad and lunchtime who. Hot Salad is B vivid. And lunchtime is her and Sean Eagleton, I believe, working together. And they are, they're doing US fabrication for a number of different brands at a really high level.

And it's cool to see these shops that are really innovating and getting production batches out at a super accessible level, but still making things domestically at a very high quality. Yeah, it's been really cool to see bees. Journey. So I met her in San Francisco years ago when her and another mutual friend were getting ready to take their first welding class.

This is over a decade ago. And since then she has, she was an instructor at U B I, the was it United Bicycle Institute also in Oregon. And worked for another very reputable frame fabricator. And so to see her going on her own with both her own brands and her own. Fabrication house for other brands is really neat to see that arc of her in, really from the beginning of her career.

Yeah. It's been interesting. I was talking to another frame builder who's been around the block for a while and he was talking about how they're working with her Yep. And how he was getting a lot of personal satisfaction out of mentoring her a little bit in, in the bicycle world. Yeah.

And just being part of her journey. And he expressed a, a strong desire to just, I just want to see her. Be successful in those brands, be successful. And there were quite a few brands here actually that I had spoken to that had a bike made by her or her and her partner. Nice. It's interesting to see.

So they, nice, they got something good going on. Yeah. What's on your list, Randall? So not in the gravel sphere, but Albatross has a dual suspension bike made out of steel with a really interesting linkage design. That they fabricated entirely on their own with a domestic c n C partner for all the linkages and so on.

That's absolutely beautiful. So that was one of my highlights to see that in person. Actually just had a, what we call that little event with Matt at Enduro. Just a little speakeasy, I should say, with one of our former guests. And it's also cool to see those collaborations emerge as well.

So that was one for me. I really like Story Street. They have a bike that was really focused on making a high quality bike that was accessible to young riders. So it's really focused on yo local naca was it NA National, they youth cycling high school level cycling a bike specifically for that crowd in his booth.

So that was another highlight for me. I'm gonna be doing an episode real soon, or it's already recorded with Brad Bingham. And, he had a reputation for having the best welds in, I think he won twice at nabs. And so I had a conversation with him, which you'll hear soon enough.

And actually seeing the welds in person and seeing the bikes in person, my first impression was like, this is like CAD model level of precision. How is this humanly possible? Just everything absolutely perfectly aligned. These buttery welds where the, you see the faintest little difference in, I don't know what those features are called, but the waves of the welds and it's all really smooth and evenly spaced and the super elegant ex extreme degree of technical excellence on those bikes.

Yeah. It's such a pleasure walking around here and seeing the craftsmanship that these frame builders put into their work and. That's the reason to make the trip up to made or any handmade bike show, in my opinion. Absolutely. Yeah. Without mentioning number two, you can't really address craft 'cause they're actually doing some of the most stunning bikes as well.

They're also doing tie like bam, but they're doing a level of adornment that it's an eye watering price point. But but the bikes that they make are just, Arresting, they've they've done a a travel bike that, that has couplers that are not a standard Ss n s coupler.

If you didn't know any better, you wouldn't even be able to see them. You can't even see them. Yeah. And and the finishes that they're doing are also incredible as well. Nice. Nice. A couple booths that I'd shout out while I was here, in addition to what you guys are talking about, one would be Newhouse.

They're building out of Marin County, so I'd been familiar with 'em, actually a neighbor of ours. A ridership member, Eli Bingham got one of their hardtail mountain bikes and they're just debuting both the titanium and steel gravel bike here and doing some interesting thing with three D printing around how they're constructing that bike.

So that was super cool to see and super cool to us to have Marin County represented. We should also just give it a shout out here to Eli as being one of the most helpful members of the ridership community. Thanks, Eli. Thank you. You, Eli? Yeah. The second unexpected one here was seeing Bausch and their electric motors.

And I'd begun to see guys like Jeremy Cecip building custom frames and putting the Bausch electrical motor in there. Obviously e-bikes are a big trend and we're seeing them more and more. It's pretty natural that we'd start to see custom builders working with that. And Bausch seems to be the one sort of engine system that is most easily utilized and built into a frame.

I don't have a lot of reference points there as you're looking quizzically to the sky Randall, but I see more of them than others. Yeah. And the coolest thing in their booth I saw, so a, I don't know what a three person bike is called, obviously a tandem is one. It was a triple and he was describing to me that an about e-bike motor in it as well.

But he was saying via the ss n s coupling, he can take the third person out and make it a tandem. Oh yeah. Super rad. Just conceptually blowing my mind kind of bike that I saw here with s n s couplings or, yeah. Coupling. Yeah. I believe it was s and s coupling. I think I've seen, I think I've seen Craig EY do that as well.

And I think I've seen, I don't know if it was Craig or someone else, but do it where you could actually have one bike, two bikes. Yeah. Two first, no, 3000. Yeah. That's super cool. I've often heard of tandems referred to as relationship accelerators, and they'll either lead you straight into a very serious and loving relationship or off a cliff and your relationship will end in demise.

But wherever you, I would imagine adding the e-bike element maybe would. Would slow things down in, in the emotional sense. Maybe not the physical sense, you never have to question if if the stoker is pedaling or any of that. So I think it's wherever your relationship is going, you'll get there faster on a tandem.

Yep, yep. I love it. And then I did wanna shout out the guys at Pine Bury, they're making wool clothing and it's easy to categorize wool clothing as, oh, it's what you wear in the winter, which is an antiquated kind of concept about wool. But they've actually worked with a Marino wool vendor who's got a proprietary weave in their Marino wool, which basically supercharges all the attributes of Marino.

So it's better cooling, better stretching, better feel. So super exciting. They're making 'em currently in Massachusetts, but I believe they're moving to a factory in Pennsylvania. But it's American made. The founder has a family legacy in shoe manufacturing in Maine. So just super fascinating. Hope to get 'em on the podcast later, just to hear more of that US manufacturing story and give a little shout out to wool as a material where in Massachusetts I might have to pay a visit.

I'll point you to their booth. Okay. Sounds good. Yeah they had some cool stuff going and I talked to 'em a bit. It seems like they're using a nylon substructure basically in the weave. Yeah. And that allows, obviously nylons gonna strengthen the wool, but they're also doing it in a way that increases the loft of the wool fibers and allows them to work better both in their, in its insulating and cooling properties.

So is that a nylon core around which the Marino goes, or, yeah. I am not a textiles expert, but it seemed like the nylon was strictly it was not part of the main weave at all. It was just used structurally to reinforce it. But yeah, I'm a huge fan of Merino. I live in Los Angeles where it is often quite sweltering hot, and I have transitioned almost all my socks to Merino wool and slowly but surely transitioning some of the more expensive pieces like t-shirts to Merino as well.

Same. Nice. And I feel like we shouldn't end the broadcast on a clothing company, although it is cycling clothing. I was happy to catch up with friend of the pod, Chris McGovern. Chris has been a long time member of the cycling family, well known for his Cyclo Cross and supportive Cycl CROs.

Racers also had his custom carbon fiber construction brand McGovern cycles for a long time. He's launching a new brand called Seeker that's both both titanium and and steel bikes. And more of a production mindset, but super exciting, interesting story that he told earlier on the podcast.

During Covid it's, he just needed something to do. So he bought a sewing machine and started sewing and was doing bags, rear bags for bicycles and a whole bunch of other stuff to support some running he was doing. And he fell in love with the seeker brand and really loved the vibe of the name.

So he is putting it out there in the world and launching these new gravel frames to the world right now. Ooh, exciting. I'll have to check those out. I wonder every time. So I realize I've had the, who's. Seeker they call me the seeker in my head, this whole show. Every time I walk back that booth.

I wonder if there's any inspiration. You blame Chris for that. Any final thoughts before we sign off? Yeah, if you haven't, so this is the first year of made here in Portland and someone who's been to a lot of industry events and trade shows and so on, I can say that the crew here has put on something special.

The venue is fantastic. The vibe has just really been wonderful. And if you have the opportunity, I'm sure that this is gonna happen again next year because it seems to be a wild success. Really something special and really excited to have had the opportunity to be a part of it and next year to maybe have a bigger presence.

Yeah. Awesome, Sam. The one big takeaway is that, there, there are a bunch of incredibly creative people out there and they're putting their passion into making some of the most fun bikes that you could possibly imagine. Yeah, definitely take the time to take a look at all the galleries floating around online.

And I hope you enjoyed the the conversations that Craig brought you from some of these innovative minds. Yeah, for sure. I don't envy the builders sitting in their booths the next two days is quite hot here in Portland, but so much enthusiasm from the Portland cycling community. They really seemed to have showed up for this inaugural event and we wish them much success 'cause we need more shows like this in the world.

So until next time, here's defining some dirt under your wheels.

This week's episode is a compilation of chats with builders from the MADE handmade bike show in Portland, Or. This week included Rodriguez Cycles, Destroy Bicycles, Battaglin, Argonaut, Wren Sports, Velo Orange, Rizzo Cycles, WH Bradford, Speedvagen, Celilio Cycles, Wheatfall, DeSalvo, Larkin Cycles, Sage Cycles, Wolf Tooth, and Onguza Cycles.

Episode Sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (use code: THEGRAVELRIDE)

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I'm sharing a bunch of interviews with frame builders from the made handmade bicycle show in Portland, Oregon. This past weekend, the event was so packed with builders and bike brands that I'm actually going to have to divide this into two episodes and each of them are going to be longer than I typically would release. I'm hoping you'll enjoy these little snippets to get to know some brands that might not otherwise be familiar to you. So many great hand-built bicycles up there. Very enjoyable show, and I hope you enjoy these interviews. Before we jump in, I do need to thank this week. Sponsored dynamic cyclist. The team at dynamic cyclist has built cycling, specific stretching and strength training routines. That are available from an app. Or directly from the web. Go visit dynamic cyclists.com to check out the videos. They have a free one week trial and gravel ride podcast. Listeners can get 15% off. All plans using the code, the gravel ride. Stretching is one of those things that I've committed to over the last year to try to get over the hump on a back issue. And I found the dynamic cycles program, very easy to follow. They've got a bunch of different routines. They somewhat trick me into doing a little core work, which I appreciate, but I appreciate very much the specific intention of the program directed at us cyclists so if that's of interest to you, go visit dynamic cyclists.com. And remember that code, the gravel ride for 15% off. With that said, we're going to slam all these interviews together. So we're going to jump around a little bit, but each of the builders and brands introduces themselves. So hopefully it's easy to follow and remember i'll have part two coming next week as well

[00:02:24] Alder | Rodriguez Bicycles: My name is Alder Keld and I work for Rodriguez Bikes Alder. Tell me about Rodriguez and where you're from and what you, what your vibe is on the gravel scene. Rodriguez's bike shop over in Seattle on, on the Ave and we've been around for 50 years. I feel like only recently.

We've really kind of tap, started tapping into maybe in the past like three years or so, the, the gravel market. You know, a lot of our disc brake bikes have gone like really popular now. As the road bike trend, kind of like, you know, starts to fade away. But we have our gravel models of Finney Ridge and the Bandido.

That's Bandido. There's also Bandido and that's, that's a Finney Ridge right there. Let's talk about the differences between those two models. I mean this, this one looks pretty amazing with that old kind of GT inspired rear triangle. Yeah. Triple triangle there is is really nice. The, the line gets a little blurry between the two models.

You know, it's mostly the way the break mounts. So the Finney Ridge is gonna be post mount, is post mount, and then the bandidos gonna be flat mount. But you know, we are completely custom. You can choose whatever tire, tire clearance you want, either one. And if you put a carbon fork on it, you're generally gonna get a flat mountain up front.

So the, the line gets very blurred between which one is which. It's kind of, they both come through axle if you want, so. Gotcha. And does one have more of like a, a bike packing orientation and the other, more of a kind of race ride orientation? I would say the Bandido is definitely kind of on the race here, side of things.

Just like the, the fitting of ridge, you know, I mean it's again, like this is a bandido, but it has three pack bounce on the fork. Yeah. And that's Finney Ridge and it has three pack bounce. You can really do whatever you want. And what, what frame materials are you building out of? So we do, for our lowest end one is 7 25, which is still much better than a lot of production bikes out there.

And then we do velo spec and then we have like an ultralight blend that we have. And we do, we actually velo spec makes a lot of our tubing custom for us. So we get our specific Rockwell hardness and budding and tomb shape that we want out of everything. Okay, so what's the best way for people to discover the bikes you have an Instagram that they should follow?

We do have an Instagram. It's at Rod Bikes on Instagram. You can see a bunch of, you know, cool, cool stuff there a lot of fun photos. We do also have a website we, rod bikes.com and you can see all the models. As well. And what does that ordering process look like for customers? Is it a long lead time or what's, what is it?

We have a six to eight lead turnaround time. Okay. Usually, and then in the slower season, it could be four to six weeks. Okay. So pretty quick to get this dream bike underneath you. Yeah. We do full fittings and everything, so we have 20 stock sizes. So if one of our 20 stock sizes does not fit you we'll, measure your body parts, put it into our.

Fit machine that we developed called Next, next Fit, and it'll spit out numbers. We'll double check those numbers and build a frame for you. We weld and paint in-house, so the turnaround time is very fast. Sweet. Thanks for that overview. No problem.

[00:05:22] Sean | Destroy Bicycles: Can I get your name and brand? Yeah. My name is Sean Eagleton and I'm with Destroy Bikes. Sean, can you tell me a little bit about Destroy, where do you build out of and what's your philosophy about Gravel? We are out of Portland, Oregon and we actually just got the c l o, the old c o factory with inside of Chris King.

And Gravel has been, has been growing this last year a lot. Sorry. That's all right. And what about this bike that we're looking at? So this bike is a personal friend of ours who wasn't really riding the last couple of years. She just started racing this last year. And a few of the races that I worked, she came in a good 10 minutes ahead of her husband.

And it was, a friend that has just been killing it every time she goes out on a race and was. Basically a easy choice to say that this was gonna be our next cross racer, gravel racer. Her husband's known for being in the bicycle world already and doing a lot of really long extended gravel rides.

And it was just a, perfect opportunity. Someone that we're very picky about our riders. We like people who aren't necessarily the typical racer. We like a little bit Grier and people with a little bit of attitude. So hence the, that matches with the Destroy brand name. Yes.

That's why we wanted to go like super colorful with this thing. So the lights don't do it justice in here, but the full rainbow sparkle with the gold detailing really shows who she is as a person too. She's just a bit out there, a bit wild. What kind of frame materials this one built out of?

So this is all Chrome, Molly and I like to do, tend to do a mix of stuff. I prefer Columbus seat stays and chain stays on a lot of things. The seat tube is a Tonga seat tube and the down tube and top tube are both Columbus as well. And do you like that from a ride performance perspective or how they weld together or what do you like about them?

The Columbus in particular, like their seat stays, they're one of the few brands that make something that's bendable. I believe a lot of pre-made chain stays and seat stays aren't supposed to be used directly right out of the package. They still should be modified in some way to better fit the ride, better fit the bike and they're one of the few companies that I have, without a doubt, I can always modify them whichever way I want to.

The bends come out clean. There's a lot of tubing that they do, certain hardening processes that it's just almost impossible to manually work them after. And just like to leave no tube left untouched, basically. What, and what does the customer journey look like if they are interested in a destroy bike?

What do they do? How do they reach you? What does the timeline look like and what is the kind of experience of working with you? So it's a fairly simple process. We have. We now have a submission form online on our website, and you basically go on the website. We do a lot of batch stuff as well, so you're gonna choose between one bike or five bikes.

And the whole process is getting to know you, getting a fit for you. And then I like to go a little bit crazy with the tubing talk, which most people get a little bit weary of. But everything is style as well, right? And when I'm choosing tubing, it's what do you want the bike to look like and how do you want it to ride?

Ride, ride quality is just as important to me as how the bike looks. I'm very big on the geometries that we build. I tend to do things a little bit differently than a lot of people. But it's all based on my riding experiences and how I want the bike to handle. Yeah. And what's the best way to get more information about Destroy destroy by co.com.

Instagram, destroy by Co, and TikTok as well. Right on. Yeah. Thanks Sean. Thank you.

battaglin bicycles Okay. Can I get your name and the brand? Hi, I'm Marco from OA Battlin and I'm the marketing manager. We are a small company based in Italy making handcrafted custom still bikes. And how long has Baten been around? Battlin has been around since 1981. That's the year when our founder, Jovanni Battlin won the Jalia and Walter Espania.

It's a legendary grantour double achieved which was achieved only by Eddie Merckx. That in 1981, our founder right after his grand tour victories launched his autonomous bike brand. Amazing. And I know the gravel scene has been slower to take off in Europe, but now it's catching fire over there.

When did you as a brand start to explore building gravel bikes? We started exploring building gravel bikes two years ago. Obviously. The company has been, has always been focused on road bikes because that's that's what our founder used to ride as a professional cyclist, obviously back in the eighties.

We knew that the gravel scene was growing. And we knew also our customers were asking for gravel product. But we wanted to find the right product, not just launch a random random gravel bike. And two years ago we started designing the port of energy which is a sort of gravel variant of our flagship product of the Portofino.

So basically our port of energy has the same shares with our with its road counterpart, the same construction, the lag construction with the oversized logs and the oversized tubing. Yeah, I think that's very, a very striking element of the bike we're looking at is these lugs. Yes. It very much has the feel of a of a race oriented gravel bike.

Yes. Which seems to be the front end of where European gravel is right now. This kind of more racy oriented bike. Would you, is that accurate? Yeah, it's accurate to say that and also you have to consider that our founder Giovanni and his son Alex, who is the c e o of the company right now wanted to.

To design the port of energy went back to the old bikes the company used to make for the professional ra racers of the eighties who who raced in competitions the per rube. On on the pave on rougher roads. Yeah. Back back in the day, the roads were rougher than.

The roads, the professional erasers are riding now. Basically for the port of energy we went back to the old geometries, to the old frames the company used to make, and we wanted to find this gravel variant, but with still with a road racing feel. Yeah, it's super interesting.

I'll make sure to link to this bike in the show notes, 'cause I think people need to see this one. If people are interested in finding more out about the brand, where would you direct them to? They can visit our website, officina battalion.com and they can find us also on YouTube. We have many videos where we share our best builds.

And for a US based customer, how would they get their hands on one of these bicycles? Actually the US is probably our most important market and we sell directly. Okay. We have a direct relationship with the consumer. We build our, all our bikes from scratch, so they send us their body measurements, their specifications.

And we build we start from there. And would they be buying a complete bike with a groupo or are they just buying a frame and fork from you? It depends. All our bikes are custom made it depends on the customer's requests and specifications they can buy just the frame or we are more than happy to build a complete bike.

Got it. Thanks. I appreciate the time. Thank you very much for coming and enjoy the show.

[00:13:30] Ben | Argonaut: Okay. Can I get your name and brand? My name is Ben Farber. I'm the founder and head of r and d at Argonaut Cycles. Ben, where is Argonaut based? We are based in Bend, Oregon. Right on. I think I knew that and I'd seen the bikes for a number of years, but it seems like over the last few you've both expanded the line and added some small batch production.

Can you talk about like the brand a little bit as it spec specifically to gravel cycling? What the custom bikes are all about and what the super knot's all about. Certainly. Yeah. So we are fully vertically integrated production facility based again in Bend, Oregon. We've got two models, the RMM three and the GR three in terms of the style of bike.

So the RMM three is our road bike. It's a fairly racy, generally designed road bike, but it comes in custom geometry as well as proven geometry. With custom layup as well. So our big thing is how we engineer the carbon inside the bikes. And that's true for our gravel bike as well. So our gravel bike is the G R three.

The idea behind the G R three is that it's a go fast up, go faster down, a gravel bike where the geometry is pretty progressive in terms of the front end with a 68 and a half degree head to Bengal. But then also a really nice tight rear end of a 415 millimeter chains stay with clearance for a 700 by 50 C tire.

I think we've seen Sarah Max go quite fast on that bike this year. Yeah, absolutely. Sarah is our is our top racer that's been out there and doing the lifetime series. She was just in Steamboat and then getting ready to go somewhere in the south again. Pretty soon think so. Yeah. Yeah.

Awesome. And then tell me about the Super Knot. I hadn't seen that before. Super Knot is our non-custom production line, essentially. So it's the same technology that is in our custom bikes in terms of the layup pattern of the frame and where and how they're made. They're just not custom to the individual.

So we make these for in two different build, two different. Models. Essentially there's a super knot RMM three, the road bike and the super knot, g R three. And they are the build kit that they're outfitted with is essentially what we at the shop. If we could ride anything, it's what we would ride.

It's if I would build myself a bike tomorrow, this is what I'd put on it. And that's the ethos behind these. And it's for a customer who doesn't necessarily need or want a custom bike, but just wants a really great riding, super high performance, really well made bike. That's what the Super knot is.

Where they're cheaper in terms of relative to the custom bikes. So it's fif 14 nine for a complete RM three and then 12 nine for a complete g R three and lead time's about four weeks. So we're able to reduce the lead time. Got it. And is this bike, does it have a similar kind of race orientation or are you going for a broader applicability of a gravel bike?

It's more of a go fast gravel bike with ample clearance. Essentially. And what does that mean, ample clearance for you guys on this bike? 50 C tire. Okay. 7 0 5 50 C. Perfect. Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting to see like over the last few years that size become commonplace, whereas four or five years ago it was a little bit tricky, I think, for a lot of frame builders to make that work.

Yeah. And that's the art. And the cool thing, the magic in the G R three is having that short chain stay length with enough clearance for a 50 C tire. It makes it really capable, but also really fun to ride. Bike. A lot of times with the geometry of clearing that big of a tire, you burden it by having a super long wheel base, especially the rear center.

And what, that's what really concentrate on the G three is that tight rear center makes the bike just so much more lively. Nice. And if customers are interested in learning more about Argonaut, what's the best way to find out about what you guys are doing? Argonaut cycles.com. And then follow us on [email protected] as well.

And I think you mentioned already the timelines for these various spikes, but if someone was coming to you for a custom build, what does that look like? I realize like the back and forth about getting the custom geometry right with the customer takes some time. Yeah. But yeah. What does it generally look like?

Turnaround time? No. Good question. So we're about 12 to 14 weeks on the full custom bike. Okay, so it's still not too bad. Yeah. Right on. Thanks, Ben. Absolutely. Thank you.

[00:17:29] Cameron | Wren Sports: Okay. Can I get your name and the company? Yeah. I'm Cameron Sanders. I'm with Rinn Sports. Cameron, let's talk about this handlebar you have in your hands. I know this is a little tricky since we're on audio, but let's do your best to describe it. Awesome. Yeah. So this is our perseverance drop bar. We have a perseverance flat and drop bar.

The flat bar. We actually have on a number of gravel bikes out there as well. What it is, it's a one piece integrated arrow accessory alt bar. Think. If you're thinking like Jones or Redshift kitchen sink, you're in the right space but let's say the box that showed up on your doorstep was twice the size.

Yeah. So what we're looking at, it's a, drop bar handlebar with an arrow extension kind of built into it. Correct, yeah. And a lot long as you said, a lot more longer and extended than you might be visualizing with sort of the short stubby extensions that we see on other handlebars. Yeah.

It's not just for a psyching. Cycling computer or just resting your palms on this is like a full other position to get into. And from a manufacturing standpoint, we have not just like one loop, there's multiple angles here. So it's going out, it's flaring up, it's going, it has a nose that it goes around.

And that definitely makes this a harder bar to manufacture. Basically we have enough material out front to make a whole nother bar. And where, what type of athlete, gravel athletes are you seeing kind of gravitate towards this bar? What type of events in your mind as a designer, are they? Is it intended for?

Yeah, so the people that I think are benefiting the most from this are bike packers and like hyper endurance athletes. This was a. I jotted down notes about what I wanted after riding the Baja divide. And then I went and did a thousand mile gravel tour of Eastern Oregon. And between my mountain bike and my drop bar bike, I wanted something that felt at home on either one of them.

But we also are getting a lot of riders and racers that are doing a hundred to 300 mile like ultra endurance days that are really enjoying the bar. Yeah, I bet. I've just recently been, Watching from afar, peri breast, Paris. And thinking like you need to get in an arrow position to finish an endurance run today like that.

We have had a few people that there's some gravel events that don't allow you to a add on the arrow like clips, but because this is integrated, it's like this weird loophole where you can run it at some of those events. And I've had people that bought it just for that, which was not something I intended or thought of whenever I built the bar.

But Even for the weight weaning, because it's integrated. It I'm also not a weight weaning myself. I'm bike packing with a hundred pounds of gear, but because it's integrated, it actually is very lightweight because you're minimizing the amount of stuff you have to use to attach an arrow position.

Yeah. Offline, you were telling me a little bit about the armrests. Can you just describe them a little bit? Yeah. We wanted something in the aftermarket. We talked to profile design and a number of different companies and we just. Couldn't find what we really wanted for the bars. I wanted something that had a very tiny footprint on the bars so that you're not losing any real estate for hand positions or mounting things or shifting or whatever.

And the armrests will clip onto the flats or the drops and either where the bars are themselves on along the top of the plane or in the loop itself, and they fully articulate and rotate so that you can. Just really fine tune your rest position in a way that you can't on a normal clip on. Because they are integrated into the arrow loop, there's only so much you can do with playing and moving them around.

So ours are a lot more adjustable. And if people want to find out more information and or buy your products, where do they go? So they go to rin sports.com. Super easy. That's Ren Sports with a w r e n sports.com. Right on. And Cameron, thanks for the time and congrats on finishing the Oregon Timber Trail just in time to join us here at Maid.

Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, it was a great 18 days of riding. Awesome.

[00:21:22] Igor | Velo Orange: All right. Can I get your name and brand? Sure. My name is Igor Stainbrook and I'm with Velo Orange. And where is Velo Orange located? We are in Glen Burnie, Maryland. The Maryland's not a name you often hear it's such, there's such great riding there, but you don't often hear about a lot of bike brands out of that area.

That's right, yeah. There's a lot of really good riding, especially out of DC like you mentioned earlier, there's the c o canal and the gap trails, and a lot of our customers do long distance touring or random earing events. And so those kind of trails are perfect for our style of bikes. Yeah. What was the origin story behind the brand?

So we first started in 2006. We were basically importing stuff from France and Japan and UK stuff that was more vintage style. And since then, since those sources dried up of new old stock stuff, we started developing our own things, improving on those designs. And now we do a lot of both classic style.

But also more modern stuff too. Gotcha. So that was the inspiration that kinda, I see it in what I'm seeing around the booth here that, yeah, those classic styles and classic lines. As you started obviously it appears to be a touring reveering vibe, some of the stuff you're doing.

As you started to see more kind of off-road riding, popularized in the us, what have you developed from a product perspective? So obviously tires are getting bigger and bigger. Since we first started, everybody was riding like 20 threes and 20 fives, but now we have a number of models. We have one that has, that's the rando that's coming out that has 30, that can take up to 30 eights.

And then we also have the P L A, which is our kind of bike packing style bike. But it lends itself really nicely to, if you wanted to do two point fours, but you could put 45 millimeter tires, two point ones. It takes racks and fenders. You can put drop bars on it. It's a nice frame that has a lot of versatility.

Yeah. You've got. The two ends of the gravel cycling world here. Exactly, yeah. Your road plus and then the bike backing side and not in the middle. It's interesting. Yeah. On this bike you were just describing with the bigger tires, can you talk about the rear end? It looks a little bit unique.

Yeah. So the p l a, it's actually been in our stable for a number of years now. It's gone through a couple iterations, the most recent one. We now have through axles. And it has a new paint, but the geometry that everybody really likes is still the same. It has a wishbone rear end and it has a lot of custom stuff that goes into it that maybe a lot of people don't really, maybe not notice, but it's basically the rear end is a segmented wishbone that has, it's a bent tube and then there's plugs that are custom C and seed inserted and then braised in.

And so it's a lot of. Technical stuff that goes into something that people may not even necessarily notice. Yeah. I think with a brand like this, it gives it some unique, beautiful details. Absolutely. Yep. Which always makes owners super proud to show off their bike. For sure. And you were mentioning that this one can be built up as a drop bar bike or a flat bar.

Yes, absolutely. Yeah. We have a lot of people will build them up with drop bars. They most of the time they're one buys. We've seen some two buys as well. And it just lends itself nicely to a variety of build styles. So we don't really say, oh, it has to be this way, because they come as frame sets so you can build it up as you want.

And so we also designed the geometry and the fit to really fit the rider nicely. So the larger sizes are 29 er and the smallest size of 26. Got it. So you don't have to compromise on frame bag size or kind of having weird fit on a very small bike with really big tires. So it's a nice, it's a nice rider.

Gotcha. And Igor, what's the best way for people to learn more about Velo Orange? Go to velo orange.com or on Instagram. And what are you on Instagram Velo orange. Got it. Thanks for the time. Absolutely. Anytime.

[00:25:17] Reuben | Rizzo Cycles: Can I get your name and the brand? My name is Ruen from Uhha Cycles from Spain. Ruen, can you tell me a little bit about the bike we're looking at? Yeah. We have gravel a gravel bike with a big tri freelance up to 750 with a new MV fork that they are actually selling on their mocks.

But now it's available for the builders. And I have built a fulled titanium gravel frame with the with the full cable integration. We have some three D printed parts the dropouts which are U D H standard compatible. A joke for the chaining credence and the upper part of the head tube for having the custom cable integration without a, without having a super heavy and big head tube.

It's a very clean look. Yeah. It's very You building out of Spain? Yeah, I'm building in Spain. I have the workshop in the near the City Center of Madrid. I'm a one band, one man band operation. I do everything but the paint and the finishing. Yeah, that's pretty much everything about the main things about the bike.

Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about the dropout in the rear here that's using. The newer kind of mechanism of attaching the rear rail. Yeah. I developed my own dropouts for the to match my style and have a custom product my own aesthetic. And yes, we, I recently, this is the second bike I build with the U D H.

We are, we were all forced to embrace this new standard. So I have been pretty reluctant. But now I have developed all this new platform with the dropouts. I have both C N C machine for the steel and three D printer for the titanium. Yeah, you can see it's I achieve because the main problem with the U D H is the symmetry of the dropouts on the rear end.

I kindly achieve the symmetry with a few touches on the sign. And they are three D printed. We have a drive side with for the U D H power. And then Onri side has the flat mount brake mount. So everything is in line and easy to build. And are you able to three D print in Madrid as well?

No. The three D printer is is made somewhere else. It took me a long time to find a supplier that meets my quality standards in terms of finishing overall, because the main problem with the three D printer is this grainy finish you, and you can click easily tell the difference between the three printed part that the rest of the tubes.

And as you can see in here, if you touch the yolk, the finish on the yolk is pretty smooth and yeah, super clean. It's almost seamless with the rest of the tube. That is what I wanted to achieve. So it took me some time, but now I'm starting to use in this so that this technology that give you so freedom for design and so many options.

And how did you get your start building? I start building almost seven years ago when I wanted to occupy all my free time between jobs and I started looking at the I, by that time I started to meet all the builders and see some custom bikes around. So I went into deep into the knowledge of first of all knowing more brands and builders and.

Be aware that we're still people building bikes by hand. So I started really slowly and then I was pretty much self-taught in my workshop and making bikes for friends and for myself and doing this trying and error thing constantly and trying to get better and better in welding and building and everything you do at the sub.

Amazing. And for a US based customer, what's the best way to learn more about the brand or ultimately order one of these bikes? First of one you can visit my website and my Instagram. If you look for Rho cycles in the web, it will be easily appears at the first of one of the first results.

It's r a said O. And it's pretty easy to get in touch with me via Instagram or or mail. I try to keep a quick responses on all the direct messages and mail and yeah, the talk for a custom bike. Start straight away with me and we can talk about all your dream projects.

Awesome. Thanks for the time. I appreciate it. Thanks to you.

[00:29:35] Brad | W H Bradford: Can I get your name and brand? Hi, this is Brad from w h Bradford Designs. Brad, where do you build out of Sacramento, California. Right on, right up the road from me. I'm in Marin County. Oh, awesome. I ride Mount Tam quite a bit. As naturally you would from that area, it's like Mount Tam is amazing and not too far from you.

This bike actually would be pretty good on Mount Tam, given that we're looking at a gravel bike with a suspension fork and dropper post, which the listener well knows. I'm a big fan of. It is actually the bike that I designed to do the alpine dam loop on. You called it out. This is our Gazo gravel frame.

This is the bike we build the most of primarily double butted air hardened c molly for the front triangle Columbus rear end. We've made a few aesthetic changes for the bike this year. We've allowed integrated dropper post routing for 27 2. So it adds a second internal line to the frame.

And then it is designed to work with the fox ax suspension fork, or you can switch it back to an envy, gravel fork if you wanna stay rigid. And so that's like a slight adjustment in the axle, the crown between those two forks, is that right? It was actually. Thank you so much. The axle of the crown is so close and given the fact that you probably want the front end a little slacker and a little higher, I didn't adjust the axle of the crown, but what I did adjust on the geo.

Was the actual forward seating position of the rider. So the seat tube angle was increased forward by half a degree. We offset the seat tube at the bottom bracket by 7.5 millimeters, and then I actually made the top tube longer by like quarter inch and slacked the head tube angle out by a half a degree.

Putting the rider more forward in the riding position and now allowing him to actually actuate the suspension fork better. Yeah, it's interesting. I'm totally with you on that, that, a small difference in actual axle to crown when swapping those forks actually positions the bike more oriented towards a rigid fork versus the suspension forks.

So it's a natural compromise. Exactly. And w given the 45 millimeters of travel that the ax has, it doesn't raise the bottom bracket hype that much, but then you're still gonna be descending into your perfect pedaling position. Instead of having it drop down into a lower pedaling point and possibly smacking, roots and things like that.

And that's a major concern in Marin as well, because you have Nice, those, all those nice polished roots on all your trails. Exactly. For customers, is this a custom bike or are you doing stock sizes? Pretty. So as a builder I offer three separate models. Our gravel bike, our adventure cross, which is a flat bar, gravel bike.

Bike packing bike and our mountain bike. And then we do custom geo custom sizing on all frames, but we don't really venture out of those three designs currently. Gotcha. And how did you get your start building? Oh wow. I fell into this life. I sold my first bicycle design when I was in eighth grade to Alan Brown at Ozone Bikes, and it's just been a never ending process since then.

And I got to this point and I've always wanted to do really high-end, road mountain bikes and I think that I've gotten to that point in my career. Nice. And for a customer looking to learn more about the brand, what's the best way of finding out more? Go to our social media page our Instagram, w h Bradford Designs, or just shoot me a message and ask me any questions you have.

'cause I'm always available. And what does the purchasing journey look like for a customer when they contact you? They fallen in love with what you're doing. How long does it take? What is the experience? Feel like I, I am a working builder, so you'll contact me. Basically, we figure out what bike you want sizing.

I work with you. We produce a cad drawing of the bike and then small deposit down once we've gotten to that point. And it's usually 30 to 45 days for delivery. Okay. Right on. Thanks for the time. No problem. Thank you very much.

[00:33:13] Richard | Speedvagen: All right. Can I get your name and brand? I am Richard Poole. I am the creative director at Speed Bogging. I couldn't come to Portland without talking to speed bogging. For sure. So let's talk a little bit about this bike. Yeah, just gimme a little bit of the details of the gravel bike we're looking at.

Alright, so we got a pretty traditional custom rugged road for us. What we do with our rugged roads are, since they're all custom, they're built specifically to the tire size you want We're good and firm believers in short chain stays and more playful bikes. So if you never plan on running a 45, we're not gonna build you a bike that's gonna clear a 45 if you know you're only gonna run a 35.

That's what we're gonna build it to. That makes sense. All these bikes from speed wagging, they're always Super tight and clean on the rear end. So that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. But if I did come to you and say, Hey, I'm all about a 50 C tire, you can deal with that. We can do that. We actually have the upgraded model of this called the rugged or road.

And that will use, like any of the new suspension forks on the market, like the gravel forks, or we could use the envy adventure fork on that to clear about a 50. Gotcha. And tell me a little bit about the c o situation here on the svi. All speed vs. Have integrated seat masks. The seat post head is made by NV for us.

We've been partners with NV since the launch of both brands. Seriously. They just keep making 'em, we keep using them. What does that translate to? So if I get one of these out of the box and I've ordered it from you, do I need to cut anything down to, to get the right seat post size?

No. No. So the way one, we prefer, everyone that gets a bike from us gets a fitting from us too. That way we can get all the measurements dialed. We will have everything ready to go by the time your bike's built. And then, so we'll cut it down. It'll come as you see it right now. And those seat post heads have 30 millimeters of range.

Okay. So if you do, it's made for 30 millimeters of range, just in case you swap a saddle or something like that. It can go up or down. Yeah. I gotcha. That should be plenty. Yeah. And then what type of tube set are you building with on the gravel bike? Oh all of our tubes are custom to us.

A mixture of two true temper Columbus. And yeah, that's about it really. And what does it look like for a customer looking to get one of these bikes? How, what's the process look like and what's the turnaround time? We start with the fit. The fit is the most important measurement. We like to say we can get your bike 95% there if you're gonna send us your fit numbers from someone else.

But we're big believers in being balanced on the bike and our fitting process incorporates that into each bike we build. And that's proprietary to us. No fitters really do that besides us. They tend to focus on comfort and like body angles and that sort of stuff. And is there a little bit of a sort of customer exploration conversation that goes on when I come to say, Hey, all I do is ride rowdy gravel.

Could be mountain bike trails, but I want a gravel bike. Yeah. We'll walk you through that entire process. It all starts with that fit and at that fitting process, we will try and get you your entire build spec confirmed, your geocon confirmed, and then your paint scheme confirmed. It's about a three hour process, sometimes more.

And by that time, like after the fitting, your bike's going into the queue and getting ready to be built and what does that sort of build process looks like after we've. Got the geometry ironed out between the two of us. Oh, that's a wild question just given the last couple years in the pandemic.

But typically speed volumes are designed to be turned around in three months or so. Sometimes it's three to six. And then during the pandemic it was quite a bit longer, but we're pretty much back from that. Nice. And what's the best way for people to get more information about the brand? The website www.speedbogging.com.

Awesome. Thanks for the time. Yeah.

[00:36:43] Ross | Celilo Cycles: Can I get your name and the brand? Okay. My name is Ross Hatton and I'm with s Lilo Cycles out of Corvallis, Oregon. I'm looking at something rather unique here at Made. Can you describe this bike and the material you're building out of? Yeah, so our bikes are made out of wood reinforced with carbon fiber.

So the outside shell is either hardwood or soft wood, depending on the material properties we want. And then it's reinforced in the inside with a full carbon fiber. Shells. We've got all the riding strength of carbon fiber frame, and a much smoother ride from the wood, which I acts as a damper on the frame and takes up some of the sting of the vibrations.

Fascinating. So can you tell me a little bit about that process as I'm visualizing it? Obviously I'm seeing the, the wood exterior. Are you crafting the wood and then inserting sort of the carbon fiber after the fact inside that? Or does it start with the carbon fiber? So it starts with the wood, and we basically make two bicycle frames, so as if the frame is butterflied open.

So we cut every tube twice, then we hollow them out after joining them together into the frame shape. And then we do a lined layup with the carbon fiber. So we've got all the directional layup inside the tubes. Then we put them together and we do a bladder supported circular layup on the inside.

So there's no seam. It's a continuous circle on the inside. And then the we take the two halves of the wood, we put it together. And we machined down the outside to get the bicycle shape part of the machining process. We set up a we set up spaces for carbon fiber inlay, and then we overmold the carbon fiber and sand everything down.

And so we get a clean fusion between the carbon fiber reinforcing tapes on the outside and the wood appearance. That's most the outside. I think I gave you a basically impossible task to describe how complicated that process is. If someone's interested, and I think they should be to, to sort of discover more about that process and what, what it actually looks like.

Where would you direct them to? It should go to celilo cycles.com. Celilo is spelled c e L i L O. Okay. And you, you mentioned that adding the wood on the exterior of the carbon fiber kind of interior adds this dampening element to it. If you could describe like maybe how this bike might feel different.

Than a, a standard carbon bike. What would you say? It's gonna be a lot smoother. If you can think about the difference between a wooden baseball bat and something so I don't think people do carbon fiber baseball bats, but you can imagine like aluminum versus wood. Yeah. The wood's got, takes a sting out of the impact.

Okay. And so carbon fiber's gonna, would have the same kind of sting if you would make a carbon fiber baseball bat. And the wood is gonna have that less sting. So the carbon fiber frame when you get a hit is going to buzz a little bit. And so the wood really takes that buzz out. So this bike. I take it over like small chattery stuff.

Just you don't feel it all, it just floats. Okay. And are, are you guys in production on this model? We're this is so we are, we are in production. Scott's working on various bikes. We've got a number of different models. Okay. One of the nice things with the with the setup is that it's customizable so that when we come in there's various hard points.

So like, this is our. Showroom flagship model. It's got hard points all around the inside, so you can do different mounting pieces. It's got internal routing for generators, and depending on what you're looking for, the you can, we can tune the, the specific construction to what you need on the bike.

Super interesting. And, and as a customer, if I come to you, are you building something custom from a geometry perspective? For me, we are. Yeah. We, we can do custom geometry. The process has a CAD pro, we have a CAD program that is parametric, so you can put in your reach and stack and all of that. And then the files from which we d cut the different tubes that's all driven by that geometry.

So we can very easily customize that geometry for every given frame. Super interesting. And how long does it take for a customer to get a bike after ordering? It's gonna be several weeks. We can, so that's very quick. Yeah, we can, we, our, our process goes through very we, we've got, we've got a process set up so that you can put that, put that into your into our.

Take. Take your measurements, put them into your production. Into production and manufacture that frame. Yeah. And you mentioned the website, that being the best place to get more information? Yes. Awesome. And then again Celilo Cycles, c e l i l o. Perfect. Thanks for the time. Thank you.

[00:40:52] Ming Tan | Haley Cycles: All right. Can I get your name and the brand? Hey, this is Ming Tan from Haley Cycles. Ming Tang. This is a pretty cool looking bike with a special fork on it. Can you describe what we're looking at? Yeah, so this is one of our gravel bikes. This is outfitted with the cannondale lefty olive gravel fork.

So it's got 30 millimeters of travel up front. This one's built with our standard oversized straight gauge tube set. So basically we offer. Three different tube sets you can choose from when you decide to configure a bike, and then we can build it however you like it. So fully custom geometry and fully custom geometry.

All of our pricing is inclusive of custom and it's inclusive of your choice of paint and finish. Amazing. These bikes, the paint jobs are always gorgeous on these ha's, thank you. Really appreciate it. I mean it's, we really take pride in the fact that almost any bike that you see on our feed is different.

Not all, some of them are similar, but. We really encourage our customers to go and make it unique to them. And are you working exclusively with Titanium? Only with Thai. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha. And what does the customer process look like? If someone wanted to get a Haley, what is what, how do they come in the door?

What kind of consultation do they get and how long does it take to get a bike? It's a pretty organic process and usually it starts with a dis, a general discussion of what they're looking for. Whether it's a. A road bike or an all road bike or gravel bike or a hardtail, anything that doesn't have a rear suspension, no problem.

But it usually starts with the type of bike they're looking for and then we start talking about fit and whether or not the customer has fit data or if they need to get fitted, or if they just want to duplicate their cockpit, fit off their current bike, we can help build that CAD geometry file for them based on the information that they have.

And then, we get deeper into the weeds when it comes to. Tire clearance and gear choice. 'cause it's all interrelated in terms of how the bike gets built. Yeah. And then once the customer decides to move forward and the geometry looks good and the spec looks good, it's about a 16 week, 16 to 18 week lead time to get the frame done Okay and finished.

And then if it, if the customer's looking for a complete bike, the complete bikes are all custom quoted considering that you can customize bikes to the valve stems these days. So everything is custom quoted at that point. Nice. Amazing. Thanks for sharing. Thank you. Appreciate it.

[00:43:14] Julio | Wheatfall Cycles: Can I get your name and the brand? Yes. Julio Burino from wheat Fall Cycles. Julio, where is Wheat Fall building out of? Santa Cruz, California. Okay. He's currently designing there. We are having them made overseas, but we are now currently looking for someone stateside in either Oregon or California.

Nice. And is it a completely custom process with the brand? Right now they're made to order, but we are working out sizes within our Within our bikes, either the gravel or the mountain or the cruisers. This bike we're looking at, what's the frame material? It's titanium. All of the bikes are currently titanium.

Gotcha. And what's super unique for you listeners out there about this bike? It's actually got dual top tubes, the two thin top tubes rather than one across the top and a little bit of a sort of asymmetry and where they hit the C tube. What's the story behind that? It's something that my partner and I have been talking about for a long time to do something a little bit more unique.

Make an asymmetrical bike that is aesthetically pleasing for the eye, but has a compliance that feels really well on the trails and on the road. Yeah. You nailed it on the aesthetically pleasing part here. I love it. That was the emphasis. Certainly for a show like this, it gives you a chance to stand out with a, titanium finished bike.

Oh, thank you. Thank you. So what does it look like for a customer interested in finding out more about the brand? Where should they go and what does the process look like in creating their dream bike with you? So essentially this is our first show. We're just gathering ideas. We have a webpage that we do need to still work on Instagram and the maid show is catapulting our Success to get the name and the brand out there, but you we are at ww dot wheat falls cycles.com and you can get information and email us from there.

Fantastic. Great to have another brand outta Santa Cruz. Awesome, thank you.

All right. Can I get your name and the brand? I am Jeff Fra, and I am with Wild Bikes. Welcome back to the Pod Jeffrey. Thank you for having me. Can you tell us about what you brought to Maid? Yeah, so today at Maid, our big, our kind of big reveal is that my business partner Andy, is a huge Schwinn Paramount fan, and we have a Wayfinder fork, right?

So what's cool about our carbon Wayfinder fork is that it's an inch and eighth straight steer. With all the modern gravel functionalities, dynamo routing, three pack mounts, fender mounts, rack mounts, all that good stuff that we like as gravel folks. Yeah. And what we wanted to really showcase is to other builders really what you can do with this fork.

And so we build a lugged bike and we chrome the lugs. So it would be that, Schwinn Paramount homage. Yeah. Painted the main tubes, painted the fork. And this is the first lug bike that Wild has yet created. And it's this very classic looking thing with all the modern gravel capabilities.

It fits 50 C tires has all the, has three bottom mounts, top two feedback mount. And we just wanted to really lean on our love for the past and bring it into the future and show people what was possible. Yeah, I love that juxtaposition of the kind of old visual styling. But as you're describing all that modern gravel performance, and it's super lightweight and it's a really cool lug set.

So the lugs taper, so if you notice the tube actually tapers down to the C tube. Got it. 'cause you want the stiffness here and you want a little more flex in the seat area, cluster area for comfort. And so it's a really cool, well-thought out lug set designed by Chris Bishop of Bishop Bikes. Okay. And the carbon fork, it's super light.

It's just, it just happens to be lug. And in, you may not know the answer to this question, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. In terms of lugged bike manufacturing experience, is that an art that sort of was at risk of disappearing and are fewer and fewer people understanding how to make a bike that way?

I've been shocked at how few lugged bikes there actually are at this show. So it, it maybe seems to be waning. I think the problem is just the lug sets themselves present physical limitations. So this lug set is cool 'cause it has a sloping top tube, whereas most lug sets have a very horizontal Strat tube.

So the lug itself actually dictates the geometry of the, to a large extent. You have a couple degrees you can play with, but it's set. So when you start building large tired bikes with a 700 by 50 C and then a straight top tube stand over becomes an issue. And so it's cool because we have products like this emerging that actually allow you to build that.

Traditional logged construction with modern gravel features. And so I think our obsession with big comfortable tires has made the old lug sets a bit obsolete. So yeah, I think until we have more things like this available, it is gonna be a little bit of a dying art form because people just aren't building road bikes like they used to.

Yeah. And if you are building a road bike, chances are you wanna fit 30 twos, 35. That makes a ton of sense. And is this a bike that a customer could come and buy from you today? Oh, we would love to. We are so hoping that people, we, we've loved this process and we love the outcome and so yeah, we would love to sell a customer this bike.

We'd love to build more. And is that, is it a longer process for building and design or about the same? No, it's about the same. About four to five months is, what it takes for us from the project kickoff to when we are able to deliver a finished to product. Okay. Awesome. I hope I see more of these beauties on the roads and trails.

No, thank you, Craig. Cool.

[00:48:36] Mike DeSalvo | DeSalvo Cycles: Can I get your name and the brand? Yeah. My name is Mike DeSalvo from DeSalvo Cycles. Mike, can you tell us a little bit about the Scrabble bike we're looking at? This one I built was, it's actually for a customer. It was a fun project. He just wanted to go for a steel bike. Wanted to clear a tire, about 48 to 50 and keep it pretty classic.

Unlike some of the really crazy stuff here with all the integrated hoses, lines, everything he wanted, all external mechanical shifting. It feels a little like blast from the past in a way. And is this a typical like tube set that you build with, or do you build with other materials as well?

So I build with steel and titanium. This one right here is a steel bike, mostly Columbus Steel is what I use. Okay. And is there a reason for that? Is it as far as just, as far as name, the branded tubing, Columbus has always just been my favorite when it comes to steel. Yeah. Most of the bikes these days actually are titanium, but this one is a steel bike.

Yeah. Okay. Gotcha. And you've been building bikes for quite some time now. Is there? Yeah, I'm sneaking up 20, 24. I'll make 25 years of building for me. Amazing. Yeah, it's a huge milestone. Yeah. It's, I know I started when I was 26 and now I'm 51. Has the process, has it always been a custom relationship you had with customers?

Yeah. Everything I've always made is made to order. Okay. Yeah. I've never, I never worked in one of the bigger, or not bigger, but one of the, One of the smaller manufacturers or any of that just been a one man band and always made stuff to order. And how many bikes do you typically put out in a year?

These days it's mostly titaniums and my numbers have gone down. I usually, I'm just in the 40 to 50 range is a comfortable spot for me these days. Is it titanium tube set? Just a little trickier to deal with? Yeah. More time consuming. Yeah. The whole process of building titanium bikes is just more time consuming than steel.

Way back when we were doing a lot of steel road bikes, I actually almost did 151 year. That was my record. It was like 147. It's a crazy amount when you dig into like how much time it takes to make these bikes. Like it's a lot. And they've gotten a lot more complicated over the years too, right?

We've got through axles and disc brakes and if you rewind 15 years or something when we were doing rim breaks and quick releases and things like that, but just a little more streamlined, a little quicker to do. That makes sense. So what does a customer journey look like? If I wanted to get a bike from you?

The interesting thing coming off of Covid right now, at the moment at the moment I'm probably still a year out and I'm actually not currently taking deposits. COVID was a really interesting journey for me because I got a whole lot of orders and got backed up. So about a year ago, I quit taking deposits and I just put people on a wait list.

So if you were to come to me today, what we would do is I'd put you on a wait list and unfortunately you'd have to be patient for, about 10 or 12 months. And then once I would get within a couple months of building your bike, I would circle back around with you and we would start then making the decisions.

As a one man band, it's really hard for me sometimes to track all of the customer changes, shall we say, along the way. Yeah. So what I do with folks is I'm always happy to get excited and everything, but essentially, the gist of the way it works is I get a deposit and as the build gets closer to the top of the list, I circle back around with the customer.

And we go through all the final details. And I think some people are amazed because once they're at the top of the list, that's what I'm focused on. Yeah. And it's gonna be that week or two or three, then I'm gonna build their bike. Versus the waiting, for the 10 or 20 or 30 in front of you Yeah.

To get done. Yeah. That's a good way actually to handle it. Yeah. Master that excitement and enthusiasm and get 'em a bike pretty quickly thereafter. Yeah, exactly. Yeah it's tricky. All of us small builders, it's the battle we all face. Is just trying to get stuff done. When you're wearing all the hats during Covid, was it a, an issue of getting the supplies you needed to make the frame or what, and I know obviously there was a lot of enthusiasm about buying bikes during that period.

Yeah. Covid was a really crazy thing because it was tons of orders. I'm still building bikes. I'm a little embarrassed to say, but I'm still building bikes that are some of the orders that were placed in during Covid. So I, for me, it was a ton of orders and then it was me being too optimistic about how quickly things might turn around.

So then we had the supply issues both. With parts, we had suppliers with raw materials and everything. So you know, what should have taken six months now took a year and a half kind of thing. So just trying to come off of that a huge demand with no supply was just a really awful combination.

Yeah. Gotcha. And if people are interested in learning more about the brand, what's the best place to go to? I have a website, DeSalvo cycles.com. I'm on Instagram at DeSalvo Bicycles as well. And I'm still a little fashioned. If somebody wants to talk to me, gimme a call. I'd be happy to chat with you in the shop.

Perfect. Thanks, Mike. All right. Thank you.

[00:52:49] Darren | Larkin Cycles: Can I get your name and brand? Yeah. Darren Larkin with Larkin Cycles. Darren, where are you building out of? I'm in Deep River Connecticut right now. Okay, interesting. So not a lot of frame builders outta Connecticut. Strangely. There's a couple really good ones right there in my same town is Richard.

Richard Sax lives about Mile Away from Me. Oh. And then Peter Weigel is about 20 minutes away. Got it. So it's a nice, it's like a nice little hub of sort of old school frame building. How did you get into Frame building? As a hobby. I guess I was always a tinkerer and it made sense to, it made sense at some point to build a bike for myself.

Got it. I was doing a bunch of messengering and riding and just made sense to build myself a better bike and then, built bikes for some other friends and got, I got really lucky getting a connection, helping out another frame builder in their shop, and learned a lot from that. Yeah. It seems like that's where you get the reps, right?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Can you talk about the sort of gravel models that you have and what are you building out of and what are some of the attributes you'd wanna highlight? Yeah so this sort of main stock model that I've been doing, it's been calling it the Dreamer and I've been making it for, at this point, at round five years.

I've been trying to make just like a pretty light good general all around. Like affordable gravel bike, that is gonna ride really great and not cost a ton of money. So it's all tig welded, like Columbus, a mix of zona and life tubing. I'm trying to use like American made, like Paragon Machine Works, dropouts, bottom bracket.

I've been getting fork blades made on my own, like getting those sort of custom fabricated different places. And cool. Yeah. And what does that, what does a sort of customer journey look like? How do they find you and what does the process look like? Are you building stock frames or custom frames?

The, my, my goal is to have this particular model be a stock frame that is just available on the website, but over the past few years, between pandemic materials, availability, and then sort of me moving and resetting shops, it's been a couple years where I haven't been able to do that and I'm. Very much hoping once the dust settles after this show to get stocked back up again and focused on that.

Nice. And so how can customers find out more about you? Larkin cycles.com or Larkin Cycles on Instagram. It's the best spots. Perfect. Thank you. Cool.

[00:55:07] Dave | Sage Cycles: You, Dave from stage. Hey Craig. Good to see you again man. Good to see you too. And super stoked to hear about the updates on the Storm King. It's a bike. I love the original version of Yeah. And this thing is gorgeous, so why don't you tell me about it? Sure. No, yeah, it's the Storm King. The original Storm King has been such a good, fun bike.

It's so versatile. It just, you can do so much with it. Racing, bike packing, adventure riding it just really allows you to do a lot. And as time has gone on from the original bike to where we are now, I've really developed the geometry and the design of the bike to improve it for future proofing, if you will.

So from a tire clearance perspective and a tow overlap perspective, those were things from a custom standpoint have always plagued customers. And so I wanted to go about. Fixing that issue that I want somebody to get on this bike, and no matter what size tire they ride, they're gonna have tow clearance.

How are you achieving that? So what I did was I redesigned the geometry, and what I found is that if I push the front end of the bike out by two centimeters and then shortened the stem by two centimeters, your handlebar stays in the same place for where it should be. But because I've pushed the front tire out, now you now have toe clearance that you wouldn't have had before.

So technically speaking, the bike with the shorter stem will steer quicker than the original version because the, if you think of the stem as a lever and as you turn that lever, the shorter lever turns quicker. But the longer wheel base, because I've pushed out, the front end, actually is more stable at speed.

So if you're going down high speed gravel road, it's chunky, washboard, big stuff like that kind of thing. The bike is actually way more stable in a straight line, but when you have to turn in tight corners because the steering is quicker, you can still turn around corners kind of thing. So it's this really nice improvement of being able to stretch out the rider and give a better ride quality.

It's similar to mountain bike, but it's not mountain bike. Like it's just different in that way. Yeah. I think it's been just this interesting journey for builders as gravel came about. Yep. To distance ourself from the original kind of maybe Road Plus Origins Correct. Of the design. Yep. And thread that fine line between two Mountain Bikey, but still fun to ride on the road.

And I'm super excited about this moment in time because I think for buyers of bikes we're, it's great moment where, yeah, if you get a bike that's produced in the year 2023, There's so much thoughtfulness in the design that have just added versatility to what we were using a few years back. Yeah, no, I agree.

Gravel is, has really evolved over the last 10 years. If you think back to 10 years ago, seven years ago, something like that, a 40 millimeter tire was as big as you ever needed for gravel. Didn't need anything bigger, you weren't, nobody was pushing it. Now, with our new Storm King, for example, yeah, it takes 700 by fifties.

But we also have an option that you can run a six 50 by 2.4. Yeah. It's huge. Yeah. That's just the versatility of that range to go from a 40 to a 2.4 is huge. So you can very much have one bike. You can take bike packing. Yep. But you can also go to S P T Gravel and throw some forties on it and race hard.

Yeah. It'll be great. Yeah. This would be a perfect S B T bike. I know there's a lot of people at S B T that are using road bikes or modified road setups, but the reality is this, Will do the job just fine. Yeah. I think for those of us without a quiver of bikes in our garage to choose from, like you, you wanna be able to modify your bike with just changing tires or wheel sets if you have that opportunity.

Yep. You're also doing some neat things with like three D printing right on this bike. You wanna talk about that? Yeah, sure. One of the things going back to the tire clearance issue, but now instead of tow overlap, now tire clearance on the frame one of the things we wanted to really standardize was chain ring size.

Crank sizing, if you will, but chain ring size in combination with tire size and how that we can make an, from an efficiency standpoint of building the bike. So what we created was a chainstay yoke. Yeah. That sits behind the chain rings. This is nothing new. Plenty of builders been doing it for years.

And. We made a three D printed version of it rather than a, we used to do chainstay yolks that were solid titanium plates. Yeah. And they'd be welded or bent and it was just a chunk of heavy metal. Going the three D route allowed us to really dial in from a CAD perspective using modeling software and and just other types of three d printing software and equipment.

We were able to really dial in. The specs that we wanted. So we knew this is the tire size. We knew this is the chain ring size. We knew this is the Q factor of the cranks. What fits, what do we want to do? And then, okay, it also has to be able to run. If somebody wants to run a mechanical shift line, you can still run a mechanical shift line through the yolk.

It's, oh, really? Just big enough to be able to do it. Okay we worked on that one quite a bit. But it's great because it allows you to From a building standpoint, it allows us to go, we have one chain stay design, and we can sit there and go, okay, this is how the chain stays, are shaped.

We're good. We can repeat it every single time, and we're guaranteed to have this tire clearance, this crank clearance. Yeah. Et cetera, et cetera. And it just it just works. And and the three D parts are actually lighter than the solid plate parts, so we're dropping weight in that regard too. So it's a best of bonus.

Bonus. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk about the rear dropouts. I know, sure. It seems from the mountain bike side of the world, obviously there's new attachment Yeah. Strategies from various manufacturers going on. Yeah. Yeah. How are you thinking about that? Obviously like it's something you can change in real time as the trends move.

Yeah. But what have you done with the dropout and just your thoughts on that? So the dropouts that we have on the bike that's on display right now, these are technically version one. I actually have version two dropouts, which. Unfortunately as a podcast, nobody will be able to see. But if you take a picture, you can certainly share it.

But we've got a t type transmission specific dropout now that we'll be replacing this one. So in general, going back to the original question the concept of how the derailer attaches and the transmission style attachment, I think it's great because it eliminates that the derailer hangar, which is a weak point, Technically speaking, you have this piece of whether it's aluminum or plastic, it can break.

It's designed to break. Yeah. Whereas when the derailer attaches directly to the frame, you've got a much more secure connection. The shifting's more precise. And the cool thing is the, in the case Ofra, the derailers are completely rebuildable, which is super. So I think it's, I think there's a good future for it.

I, from a future proofing perspective, I do see gravel bike. Going to transmission for going to transmission style drive trains, because it's a one by transmission is designed for a one buy setup. So there's already one buy on gravel bikes. So it just makes sense that would be future thing.

So in that regard, we are forward thinking about having our own gravel specific T type dropouts. It's a mouthful having our own gravel specific T type dropouts. For gravel bikes so that when a customer orders one, they'll be future-proofed for transmission, which I am pretty sure is coming kind of thing.

Yeah. Interesting. Super cool. I love that you optionally spec a dropper on this bike. It's right up my alley. Yeah. You've got, and you mentioned that it's got internal cable dropper routing, yeah. Cleanly integrated into the frame. Yeah. So this is the, this is our first fully internal, everything is internal routed.

Bike. So we're using Envy's New Adventure Fork, which is internally routed. I don't think they've given it a new name yet, but it's, they're Adventure Fork, but it's fully internal. We're using the Chris King Aero set headset and then Envy's internally routed aero stem. So we have our two break lines, and in this case it's the NV dropper post on the bike.

And even though it's Ara Drive train, While I would've normally used a wireless drive train, I wanted to show off the capability that we can run the mechanical dropper line internal. So we have three lines running internal of the bike and there's, the only thing is where it pops out for the brake calipers.

That's it, super clean look. How mechanically challenging is it for the home mechanic to kinda work on with these hidden cables? Let's be honest, Dave, I have a little bit of fear. I would be scared. I would be scared. Fair enough. Okay. So unless you're like a super competent home mechanic, get your local bike shop to work on the sport.

The good thing, at least I will say is that from a hydraulic brake perspective, the brakes have gotten so good. At this point, you don't really need to work on 'em too much. Yeah. Once a year, do the bleeds or twice a year, depending on how much you're using 'em. Changing pads is still easy. And the dropper post.

Yeah. It's not the friendliest. Just internally routing 'cause you're trying to put bends and kinks and cables. But once it's in, once it's in, like I've never had to adjust my Yeah. So it's dropper, I don't think it's really as much of a challenge for the general home mechanic. There shouldn't be things breaking Yeah.

On a regular basis. Yeah. And the plus being incredibly clean lines on this bike. Oh's gorgeous. Yeah, it's gorgeous. It's absolutely gorgeous. Yeah. I mean it's, yeah, it's it's tough to work on, but I can. Stare at this bike all day long. Great to catch up with you, Dave. Thanks Craig. Appreciate the time.

[01:04:39] Curt | Wolf Tooth: Cool. Can I get your name and company? Yeah. My name's Kurt Staffy from Wolf Tooth Components. Good to see you again, Kurt. You too. I think Sea Otter was the last time I, I think so. Yeah. And I was super excited. I got a press release from you about the new gravel forks. Yeah. You wanna tell me about 'em?

Yeah. So lithic is our line of carbon forks that actually we developed for Otto Cycles, that's our, our bike brand. And now they're, you know, available for the first time. For people who aren't buying one of the bikes. So this is great. Okay. So previously they weren't available? That's correct, yeah.

So that means it's great for, you know, smaller like frame builders like we have like here at Made Bike Show. But also like, you know, for anybody who has a suspension corrected bike and they, you know, maybe want to swap in and out a rigid fork this is a new option for them. That's, that's what I think is the interesting part about it.

And when you look at the Sea of Carbon forks, You're, you're generally not thinking about suspension corrected sizes, and as someone who do, you know, dove deep into building a frame around a suspension fork, I quickly came to learn that a lot of the forks I was considering swapping it into, I would drop pretty substantially in the axle to crown.

Yeah. Length. Yeah. So it's super cool that riders now have an option that it only has a subtle difference from like what a rock shock or a fox. Forks, gravel, forks axle to crown ratio is, yeah, totally. Yeah, our gravel fork it has a four 20 axle to crown and our mountain fork which is a completely new design.

Well, our gravel and fat forks are also like our own designs too, but we just also announced our mountain fork. But yeah, they're, it's super easy to swap in and out between, between a rigid fork and a suspension fork. So if you wanna save weight and go rigid, That's an option. And 'cause the, the cable routing, which is a nuance people need to be considerate of if you're, yeah.

Thinking about swapping forks, if you're me and you never wanna bleed a brake in your life, I love the idea that I can just kind of unclip it from my suspension fork and sort of clip it to the rigid fork and be good to go with a brake adjustment. Yeah. Brake bleeding's. One thing I don't even like adjusting brakes.

Same, but I don't, there's not a solution for that when you're going between two separate forks, but. Yeah, you can just keep the brake line and because it's externally routed, like you don't need to disconnect anything. Yeah. And on the Wolf Creek side, I mean, I, I know, I know. I love, on my personal bike, all the accents of color you've been able to give me in my headset.

Yeah. On the center lock is it the bolts center? Lock rotor? Lock ring, yeah. And then you've got a new colorway to tantalize me with today? Yeah, it's called Olive. It's available across. A good selection of our, like, kind of more popular items, like we have a few different headset sizes and standards, kind of our most popular three seat post clamp sizes.

We have our like anodized color kit alloy bar plugs and our waveform pedals. Olive was first actually announced as like a limited color last year with remote and remote light action, and our customer service team was flooded. With requests like make olive in everything. Yeah. So it took a little bit of time.

But yeah, we have olive in a lot more things now and it's, it's a really nice, like kind of in the Venn diagram of green and brown. It's kind of right in that, right in that middle. Yeah. I, I thought it would look really nice on my titanium frame. Just a nice, subtle accent. Yeah, totally. Cool. Thanks for the overview.

Yeah, absolutely.

[01:08:06] Dan | Onguza Cycles: All right. Can I get your name and brand? Hi, my name is Dan Craven, better known as Dan from namm, and I am ZA Bicycles. So Dan from NAMM has a very specific meaning that you need to expound upon. What does it mean, Dan? Yes. So it's got nothing to do with Vietnam. I come from Namibia which is the country at the bottom of Africa just next to South Africa.

And as I was just saying, it's two times bigger than California and we've got a total population of two and a half million. So talk about wide open spaces. We've got them. Paint the picture of what, what does that wide open space look like? Are we talking about deserts? Mountains? It's a lot of desert.

Like a lot. A lot. We have some of the biggest, I think the biggest sand dunes in the world. We have a canyon, the fish, river canyon that is, Just a little bit smaller than the Grand Canyon. It looks very similar to that. Parts of Namibia have very much Nevada vibes. If we could farm with rocks, we would all be billionaires.

Where I live is a small little town, two and a half hours from the capital city, and it's very, it's like bushland Savannah. The first time my now wife came to visit, we went on a bike ride and after five minutes, We saw zebras baboons live on the farm, other types of antelope. There's a type of antelope called Aduk that is literally the size of a Jack Russell.

They're the cutest things in the world. Sounds amazing. Absolutely. And yeah, lots of gravel roads, not so many tar roads. I'm an ex-professional road cyclist and it basically doesn't make any sense how that happened. Yeah. That's probably too long for this particular podcast to understand how that happened.

So maybe we'll have you back on. Yes. But let's get a little bit about the gravel bike we're looking at in front of us, and how is it manufactured? Where is it manufactured? What was the sort of vision behind creating a brand out of Namibia? Okay. So just a little bit of background on my graveling.

I built my first handmade steel bike in 2012. And the second one in 2012 and I was wanting to build a gravel bike, but back then they were, didn't exist. I was wanting to build a monster cross and I couldn't find the correct fork until envy finally brought out their fork. And if I'm not mistaken, I got the first envy gravel fork in Europe and I built a, myself.

I built a bike that was in 2016, and the reason was because I was still a professional road cyclist at the time. But I hated the roads back home, so I wanted a gravel bike to be in the same position, but be able to actually ride and have fun. Yeah. So I've been monster crossing since 2016 and it's just it's like e-bikes.

It's the future and it's amazing. So we now are building bicycles in this town that I grew up in and the whole. There's so much background to it, there's so much juice. But in, in short, the people who come from Namibia are amazing at using their hands. They really are just magical, and that's, it's like top class manual capabilities, but very often the ingredients for the things they're working with are not top class.

And I felt as a proud Namibian as a two-time Olympian. I was like, wait, if I can come from that tiny town and go to the Olympics twice, what about everyone else who's not as privileged as I am, but who's actually so much better than me with using their hands? So if you take beautiful Columbus steel tubing from Milan in Italy and stainless steel paragon dropouts from California, and we fly in a master frame builder, an award-winning frame builder, Robin Mather.

And teach these two gentlemen who've been working for my family since 2019. So it's basically you. You take their abilities with their hands and then you give them everything else that's on that level as well. Yeah. And see what comes out. And we were hiding our products away from the world first few years as we are slowly building up and learning the ins and outs.

And we reached a point where it was like, yeah. We are now building bicycles that I can walk into a venue like Maid and hold my bicycle high and be like, we belong here. These bicycles are amazing. They come from a place you don't expect built by people you wouldn't expect. But my little town builds bicycles and we believe in the power of small towns, be it in Africa, be it in America, wherever it may be.

But and going hand in hand with that, the world doesn't need another bicycle brand, but Namibia needs this one. And it's if my town can do this, what can your town do? Yeah. Amazing. I love that story. What's the meaning behind the name? So My Town or Maru is basically if you are going to see Bushman paintings in caves, or if you're gonna see the famous rock engravings in Namibia, a place called Twa Fontaine.

My town is where the tar road is. And so in two of the local languages, ZA means the vast expanse of nothingness out there. Okay. Short for, or the short form of that is the desert. So we live on the edge of the desert. Got it. Beyond us. Got it. What is the customer journey look like when they fall in love with your brand?

What does it take to get one of these? Is it a fully custom experience or do you have stock sizes? We tend to do stock sizes because as a professional, ex-professional cyclist, I never had a teammate who didn't race on a stock size. So my personal experience is that 95 plus percent of the population is stock size is perfect, but every customer must have a bike fit.

And we start the conversation. We have like at least an hour long video call go through. What bikes have you ridden in the past? What bikes do you ride now? What did you like about it? What didn't you like about it? What bike do you want in the future? I recently had someone who was ordering a road bike and we had a conversation.

It turns out that no, actually what he needed was the gravel bike, but you need a long conversation to be sure you get there. And then in that conversation we discuss the bike fit that they've had or about to have. And it becomes very obvious very quickly if someone is a. Is it in the must have category for a custom fit?

Like I have a customer who is as tall as I am, but his saddle height is about four centimeters higher. And for him it's like under no circumstances is a stock geometry right. For you? Yeah. Whereas most people it is. Would you pursue that project or just refer them to another? Oh no. He needs a custom and he's getting a custom.

Okay, got it. And it's like, What the customer needs and what is right for them is what we build within our parameters. We are not a fully custom, you cannot come to us and say, I want a bent this and a squeeze that in a, it's no, this is our bike. This is our color scheme. We stand for something.

Our colors mean certain things and they're recognizable. And if you love it, fantastic. I love you too. But if you don't love it, then well. There are so many beautiful other bicycles out there in the world, and I'd love you to go and support another local frame builder, small builder. That makes sense. If people wanna find out more about the bike, where should they go?

We have our website on gza.com, so that's O N G U Z A and on Instagram it's on Goza bicycles at on goza bicycles, and there's a little, we have a two minute. Brand video that recently won an award at South Africa's biggest advertising awards. So there's nothing to do with sport or cycling, the advertising awards.

Yeah. So I'm relatively proud of it as you should be. So I recommend everyone please go and watch it. Do it full screen, full volume. It really rocks. Yeah. And for us dense Americans, go to get out your atlas, go to Google Maps, figure out what Namibia is. Yes. As I said, and my parents have been there, they said it's an absolutely gorgeous country.

Absolutely. And amazing that you're bringing the bike industry there and taking advantage of these craftsmen and showcasing the beautiful work they can do. Yes. And so just to add on to that America is our target cus our audience our bicycles, the price does not include tax, which is normal here, but it does include shipping to the US for a frame set.

Because of the difficulty of where we are, we prefer to sell frame sets. We can help with complete bikes, but it's case by case. And yeah, come check us out. Got it. Thanks Dan.

[01:16:58] Craig Dalton: That great conversation with Dan seems like a good place to stop for this week's episode. We'll be back again next week for part two. Of the made handmade bicycle show. I hope you enjoyed those interviews. Many of them cannot do justice without an image. So go seek out the handmade bicycle show [email protected], or certainly follow these brands on Instagram as they're all such amazing craftsmen and women. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels

In this episode of the podcast, we interview Adam Sklar, the founder of Sklar Bikes. Adam shares his journey into cycling, starting with his entry into mountain biking through his ski friends during his childhood in Boulder, Colorado.

He talks about his early experiences in bike racing and how he discovered his passion for frame building during his time in college in Montana. Adam discusses the challenges and joys of building custom bikes for his friends and the process of transitioning from custom bikes to smaller batch production.

He also talks about the design philosophy behind Sklar Bikes, which focuses on creating versatile and fun bikes that offer different riding experiences. Craig and Adam touch on various topics, including the materials used in frame building, the process of designing and manufacturing custom bikes, the popularity of gravel bikes, and the unique features of Sklar Bikes, such as the adjustable dropouts and external cable routing.

Throughout the episode, Adam's passion for building bikes and creating unique riding experiences shines through. Listeners are encouraged to check out the Sklar Bikes website and reach out to Adam with any questions or inquiries.

Episode Sponser: AG1

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:01]Craig Dalton (host): Adam, welcome to the show.

[00:00:03]Adam Sklar: for having me. I feel like I've been

[00:00:05]Craig Dalton (host): I feel like I've been admiring your bikes from afar for a while, so I'm excited to have this conversation and just learn a little bit more about the origin story of the brand.

[00:00:15]Adam Sklar: Cool. Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. start off with,

[00:00:18]Craig Dalton (host): Let's start off with, uh, just learning a little bit about you. Where'd you grow up and how'd you discover cycling in the first place?

[00:00:24]Adam Sklar: Cool. Yeah, so my name is Adam Lar. Um, People know me for my bike brands, car bikes. Um, so yeah, I grew up in Boulder, Colorado, and I guess my entry to bikes was through my ski friends. I grew up ski racing and then in the summers all my ski friends were into cross country mountain biking, like mountain bike racing as you were if you were a kid who grew up in Boulder.

Um, and so after a couple summers of them, Like begging me to go mountain biking with them. I finally tried it and it, um, hooked. I guess I got hooked super hard. It was sort of the thing we could do where we went outside all day and our parents wouldn't bug us, um, or like ask questions about what we were doing.

So we would go up in the mountains and pack our lunch and go on these big long rides. Um, and that was, so that's sort of, yeah, what my entry point into cycling was. Um, amazing.

[00:01:21]Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. And then did you catch the racing bug from your

[00:01:24]Adam Sklar: Not really. They, I tried to make it, make it go. Um, I definitely, my last year of high school was the first year of Nica in Colorado, and that was cool.

And I thought I would get into racing, but I moved to Montana and they didn't really have bike races there. Um, so I never, I never really got super vacy, but I, I wanted to be for sure. And what, what

[00:01:52]Craig Dalton (host): And what, what led you to move to

[00:01:53]Adam Sklar: Um, I came to Montana for college, so I went, I went to engineering school at Montana State in Bozeman, and yeah, that's how I ended up in Bozeman. Gotcha.

[00:02:04]Craig Dalton (host): And in the course of your education there, did you learn to weld?

[00:02:08]Adam Sklar: a little bit, yeah. So I, I built my first frame, winter break of my freshman year of college, so I was, um, or well built as, Maybe a generous word, but I, I got some tubes and stuck 'em together with like, stuff from Home Depot. And at, at the end of my time in Boulder, I'd met this guy Walt, who does, Walt works.

And uh, he built me a fork for my mountain bike. 'cause we were all into rigid 29 ERs, single speeds, you know, very bolder. And, uh, I showed it to Walt and he felt bad for me, and so he gave me a brazing lesson and taught me how to do it. So then I, I did a couple more on my own and then, yeah, went back to school.

I got a job in the machine shop on campus and it just so turned out that the guy who ran that shop had built frames in the seventies and eighties, and so he really took me under his wing. And so I was working in the machine shop helping engineering students with like their senior projects, machining stuff, and then, Some nights there would be no one there, so I would just machine bike tools or work on bikes and that's sort of how I built up a lot of my, my shop and experience. Amazing. If you had

[00:03:24]Craig Dalton (host): amazing, if you had to guess, how many bikes did you make while you were in school? Cool

[00:03:28]Adam Sklar: Oh, probably, I bet like 20. I ended up, I think I met Tom, like I, Tom Youngs, who was the shop guy. I think I built seven when I met him, and then I probably built another 20 or something. Sort of like the, the business started 'cause I was spending all my money building bikes for friends and, which is, you know, it's how it goes.

Like you build one and it was really fun. It's so cool. You ride it and you're like, wow, I made this. That's amazing. And then your friends see that and they want one. And I also wanted to build more bikes, but I had enough, you know, I can't, I couldn't just keep building myself bikes. So I got my friends to buy 'em.

And then, um, I was like, why do I have no money? I need to make one bank account that's just bike stuff and if that's zero, then I'm not making money. And that was kinda the start of learning how to do a business as well. What

[00:04:22]Craig Dalton (host): And what type of bikes, I think you might have mentioned this, but what type of bikes were you making for your

[00:04:27]Adam Sklar: then?

It was, yeah, that was still in our rigid single speed 29 or days. So pretty, I think like out of the first 20, I bet 15. Were those. Yeah. Did you have an

[00:04:39]Craig Dalton (host): And did you have an opportunity to kind of explore the different characteristics of the various steel tube sets available?

[00:04:46]Adam Sklar: I think that early on, yeah, I was still learning about that stuff. Um, a lot of experimentation, a lot of, there were some frames, nothing was ever wildly unrideable, but you know, you build one and you're like, okay, that's super stiff. That feels bad, or, you know, that bottom bracket's way too high. Like, I won't do that again.

Um, so luckily my friends were very forgiving with some of those first ones. Um, but I think, yeah, I mean the, the understanding of materials really happened over time. I think, you know, you're, you're starting and you're just working on the actual fabrication craft. So like, it would come in phases. Like at first it was like, I need to get good at welding and be really focused on the welding.

And of course you're always looking at materials and things like that. But I think after I had nailed down the craft a little bit more, I spent a lot of little dove into materials a little deeper. And I guess being an engineering school also helped with that. 'cause you learn, there's a lot of in the bike world, you know, interesting rumors that get spread around about materials.

But having a scientific background in that stuff. Kinda helps you see what parts are true about those things and what might be made up Interesting.

[00:06:06]Craig Dalton (host): That's super interesting along the way. Just 'cause I'm curious, like as you were learning the craft of frame building, was there an area of the frame that was the trickiest to kind of master? I mean I, in my mind, I'm thinking like around the bottom bracket seems to be the hardest place to get the welds

[00:06:25]Adam Sklar: yeah. I mean, Uh, yeah, I mean, still the hardest thing with like the big tires, big tire chain ring clearance. You know, you'll see all these very creative chains day yolks out there these days. And it's funny, bikes are, bikes are so simple, but, uh huh. Recording can, oh, can you hear me Still?

[00:06:54]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah,

[00:06:55]Adam Sklar: Oh, you went away.

Oh no. Okay. What was I saying? Oh yeah, chainstay. Yos. Yeah, threading. And like the cool thing about that era, so this was like 2012 ish, and so the first big tire era I got to go through was like plus mountain bikes, but also gravel bikes. Were kind of just starting to be more popular than I think, and. At that time we were like, how do we fit a 40 C tire in here with a road double and stuff like that.

So that was, um, yeah, it was fun to be figuring out those problems and maybe figuring 'em out. Before companies, like big companies had to, you know, they, they have to make sure that works for the run of a thousand bikes they're gonna do, but I was doing one at a time, so we could make. These cool big tire bikes before they came out commercially, which was pretty cool.

Yeah,

[00:07:54]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think that's, it's been such an interesting journey the last six years or so, just around that specific challenge of.

[00:08:01]Adam Sklar: clearance. Mm-hmm.

[00:08:02]Craig Dalton (host): clearance and how to make that work with gravel bikes. That's interesting to hear you kind of attacking that early on through your exploration of the mountain bike first and then later transitioning like, oh, I already figured out how to do that for super big tires.

Now I just need to downsize it a little bit for this gravel and road crankset

[00:08:22]Adam Sklar: Totally. Yeah. So you

[00:08:25]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. So you graduate from college, you've made, you know, twenties, 20, 30 bikes. At that point, did you immediately kind of say, Hey, this makes sense for me to pursue as a business, or was there something you were doing along the way at that time as well as you were doing this

[00:08:40]Adam Sklar: Yeah, I, um, no, I. I was pretty hesitant to do it as a job. I had talked to a lot of builders and pretty much all of them said, don't do this for a job.

Um, I really wanted to do it. I mean, I was, so, it was all I thought about and I literally like jumped out of bed on the weekends, excited to go build bikes in my garage and it was what I wanted to do. But I was, um, during, it must have been my junior year of college, I met. A guy at a Cycl cross race who owned an engineering firm.

And so he ended up giving me a job and I was working there. My last, so I was in school and I was working at the engineering firm and doing bikes. Um, but the firm was like sort of product design stuff. We did a lot of, we'd call 'em like electro mechanical devices, like kitchen devices or, I worked on some drones.

Um, some like three D camera mounts for Google was a big thing I did. Um, That was fun. I learned a lot about complex like CAD modeling and working with engineering clients, which was, it was a really cool experience. Um, and then, yeah, a year and a half or so into that. So I did that for half, I don't know, a year or something, and then graduated.

And then that summer I went and rode the Colorado trail with some friends and I took like, I took like three weeks off for that and before like the phone was ringing more and more for bikes and I came back and my boss sat me down and was like, you have to choose this or choose that. And so I ended up choosing bikes and he ordered a bike from me, was the first thing he did.

So it was, it was a very gentle push off into the world of that. It was nice. I love it. I

[00:10:24]Craig Dalton (host): I love it. I love it. Silly question, but did you, did you design your own bike for the Colorado Trail, and if so, what

[00:10:31]Adam Sklar: Oh yeah, yeah. I did it with, so that was actually really fun. It was like four or five of my good friends from high school who, the nerd, the cross country racing nerds who got me into bikes and we were all on bikes that I built.

So, um, think two of us were on rigid. We all had gears at that point, but two Rigids three I think had 140 mil travel hard tail, like 11 speed. But yeah, we were all. On Lars, which was pretty cool.

[00:11:04]Craig Dalton (host): That's awesome. So talk about like sort of the early years of the brand and how when you, when you went full-time,

[00:11:11]Adam Sklar: year was

[00:11:12]Craig Dalton (host): what year was that?

[00:11:13]Adam Sklar: I think that was 2016 that I went full-time.

[00:11:16]Craig Dalton (host): Okay.

[00:11:17]Adam Sklar: Yeah, the, so I was sort of just figuring out, I mean, I was building really, I was, I was super psyched to build bikes and I had my shop space that I'm still in. That's the year I moved into the shop space. And, uh, yeah, I was psyched and orders were starting to come in, so I was building custom bikes, so I'd get, you know, an order for custom mountain bike, custom gravel bike, touring bike, and then that process.

By that point, I had probably built 50 or 80 ish spikes and develop that process a little bit more so, With a customer when they come to you, on average for the custom bikes, it would be 60 or 80 emails per bike. So it's a pretty involved process where they tell you their needs and you know, I'm asking, it's not just like, what are your measurements?

It's like, what, where do you live? What's the riding like? What goals do you have with like, do you want to do a big bike tour on it? Is it to win cycl cross races? Is it, you know, there's so many. And then you're sort of teasing out what the things people tell you mean, because, you know, you can say all sorts of things.

Like, my favorite one is people say like, I want a bike that rides like a big B M X bike. But they've never actually ridden a, like B M X bikes are scary to ride. You know, you don't, you don't want, that's not what they mean. But I know what they mean when they say that, but it's not, unless they're an actual B M X rider, I would never believe them.

When they say that, what does that, what does that

[00:12:51]Craig Dalton (host): What does that, what does that translate to you? That they want the bike

[00:12:55]Adam Sklar: To me, it's like playful, nimble, I think is a word that I would use and like lofty, like easy to bunny hop and stuff. But yeah, beer mix bikes are

[00:13:03]Craig Dalton (host): that makes sense.

[00:13:05]Adam Sklar: You don't want that. Um, so yeah, big really involved process building these custom bikes that were yeah, from the ground up all the way custom.

Um, yeah, and I did that for a long time for. Eight, I guess the next eight years, just building 30,

[00:13:25]Craig Dalton (host): And, and were you starting to go to like the handmade bike show

[00:13:28]Adam Sklar: Yep. I went to the Handmade bike show, I think that was 2016 was the year I won Best Mountain Bike. I was. Which, um, those awards are a little silly, but that definitely put me on the map for a lot of folks.

Um, and yeah, I think after that my, my lead time went up to two years and it really didn't ever go down from there. Which was an interesting journey in itself. It's gets some

[00:13:57]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, to get some perspective, like how long from beginning to end, obviously you've got the massive number of emails in advance of actually welding anything, but how long would it take you to manufacture a custom bike?

[00:14:09]Adam Sklar: yeah, so most of the time is definitely in the design process.

I mean, that's typically once we started it, it would be about. Six weeks to get everything dialed in. And that would include like build kit and paint colors and all that stuff. But once I have the design in hand ready to go in the shop, it's usually like I can, in two days of work, I can get it done. So like 15, 20 hours.

Um, yeah. And that got faster and faster over the years. But

[00:14:40]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Got it. And when did you start to see gravel bikes become more of what customers were asking for? I. And were you kind of prepared for that transition to designing drop

[00:14:52]Adam Sklar: Totally. Yeah, I think that must've, so I was big on the, the mountain bike big award thing happened, and that's my background as well is in mountain bikes. Um, and then it must've been right around then, yeah, maybe 2016 ish, 17 in there. Um, I definitely noticed. Something that I liked, well, I had built myself a couple.

I was a hesitant gravel rider, just 'cause I was like, I'm a mountain biker, you know, road biking's lame, which is dumb. But, um, you know, here in Bozeman, the trails, if you, if you, there's amazing gravel riding. We're in this big valley that's like a hundred miles across one way, 30 miles across the other.

And there's, it's just full of sweet gravel roads and. If you have a gravel bike, it adds four months to the riding season. 'cause there's like two months on either end that the trails are snowed in and that. Um, so I had built myself some gravel bikes and I was getting super into it and I noticed that my friends were mountain bikers.

It was a way for them to have two more months of riding and my friends were road bikers. It was a good way to like, get them to go do actually fun riding. And um, it just seemed like such a fun way to bring. All the bike people together. And then at the same time, what we were just talking about where big companies were kind of figuring it out.

I think it was, it was a time like the, the coolest part about the custom stuff is that interaction, getting to hear what people are looking for. And it was really cool with gravel bikes because you know, I got to talk to hundreds of people who were like, this is the gravel bike I can't find out there and this is what I'm looking for.

And through, you know, That six week long process with all those people. Um, I think I got some pretty cool ideas about what people are actually looking for in a grapple bike. Um, so I think that

[00:16:52]Craig Dalton (host): Given your mountain bike background, when you first designed your own personal gravel bike, was it on the rowdier side?

[00:16:59]Adam Sklar: yeah. Well actually, you know, I think the first, well actually the very first bike bike I built was. Kind of a, it was like a cyclocross. We were still calling 'em cyclo cross bikes then. Um, but yeah, I did, I think the first, yeah, they definitely leaned mountain bike year. They had that mountain bike ego to them.

Um, yeah, and I did a lot of experimentation. Um, I remember, I don't know, I probably built myself like 15 of, maybe not that many, 10, but, um, ranging from, yeah, full. Drop our mountain bike to big tire road bike. Um, and that's been, that's been part of the journey too, to realize what I like in there and also to help me understand what people mean.

You know, hearing about their background as a cyclist, what, what they're used to. I think that's a huge part of design. People might come to you with an idea of what they want, but also. There's, there's something, you know, muscle memory of riding a bike. And if you're used to riding road bikes and you hop on one of those rowdy mountain, like mountain bikey gravel bikes, most of those people aren't gonna like it.

And I think the other way is true too. If you're a mountain biker and you get on a really steep road, road bike with big tires, that's gonna feel unnatural. So the custom bikes are kind of weaving in. Like, what are your goals? Like do you want to, are you a road biker who wants to get on single track?

Like how do we make it familiar enough that it feels like home? You know, it feels like something you like, and how do we make it capable enough that it can make you feel confident to, to do those things? You want to push yourself on that. That's sort of the balance I'm always, I've been trying to do. Yeah.

[00:18:54]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, it's such an interesting journey. As the listener may remember, I went through my own custom bike design experience, and it's easy to go in and say, I want two, two tire clearance and I want this, that, and the other thing. And then as you get the design out the other side, You start to see the compromises, the longer chain stays, the different things that they need to do, particularly when working with a metal to achieve those dimensions.

And for me, it was like I needed to be more realistic and say, okay, I need to knock it back a little bit because I don't wanna entirely lose,

[00:19:29]Adam Sklar: the notion

[00:19:30]Craig Dalton (host): you know, the notion of a road bike feel. I don't wanna turn this into a, a mountain bike. And there was an interesting just give and take in my own personal journey to say, okay, you know, 700 by 50 is plenty big as a tire.

Let's go with that as a max and let's see how things fall. And we can get a design that is still playful enough, but accommodates everything i, I realistically need at this point in my custom bike.

[00:19:56]Adam Sklar: Yeah. It's so easy to want it all. But that's kind of part of the fun of these bikes, I think is like they're, they're, you're not supposed to ride on Montreals, but that's why they're so fun. And mountain biking is so

[00:20:11]Craig Dalton (host): exactly. And

[00:20:12]Adam Sklar: and it's so fun on a mountain bike and like, don't make your gravel bike, mountain bike.

Go, go mountain biking if you want to do that.

[00:20:21]Craig Dalton (host): yeah. Yeah. I know you've spent enough, you spent time in Marin County, so you know how rowdy the trails can be out here, so,

[00:20:27]Adam Sklar: is

[00:20:28]Craig Dalton (host): Mine is probably definitely way closer to a mountain bike than a traditional gravel bike, but I I, I am conscious of,

[00:20:35]Adam Sklar: have a mountain.

[00:20:36]Craig Dalton (host): I have a mountain bike, so I don't wanna get too close to that chassis.

It needs to feel good when I'm on the roads and still be, you know, zippy enough to do all the gravel bike things.

[00:20:47]Adam Sklar: Yeah, you, I don't. I don't think everyone needs like 12 bikes. I mean, personally, like I have three bikes I ride, so I, I like there to be some, yeah. I don't wanna like be confused about if I should ride my heart tail or my gravel bike. You know? I guess sometimes you still are, but nice to have 'em be a different, different vibe.

Yeah.

[00:21:12]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So as the, as you've kind of continued to develop the brand, it sounds like you did a ton of these custom bikes with a lot of analysis about what people were needing.

[00:21:24]Adam Sklar: there,

[00:21:25]Craig Dalton (host): Was there, how, how has the brand evolved at this point? I mean, I know we have a, a model we wanna talk about that's being done in a smaller batch production, but kind of how did it get from custom bikes to, to where you are today?

Was there a midpoint where you started to do like size runs of models and things like that?

[00:21:43]Adam Sklar: Yeah. And in 20, I think it was 2018. I did my first non-custom model, which is a Hardtail mountain bike that I called the sweet spot.

And so that was similar story like with the mountain bikes for, for probably most of the time we've talked about so far. It was split between like 50 50 custom gravel bikes, custom mountain bikes, and this was in mountain bike. Sort of the era of like figuring out this whole new long front end, like. Long front center, steep seat tube thing, which has definitely bled into gravel bikes and similarly to the soup or something, which we'll get to.

I was just seeing pretty much everyone came to me because of the style of bikes I was designing. You know, they see pictures of the bikes I built and they're like, that looks like what I want, which is cool. And I was building them a fully custom bike, even though it felt like a lot of the time they were just defaulting to like, I think you should build me what you think is right.

And so it felt like, I'm not gonna say a waste of time, but it felt like a lot of customers could be better served by a more off the shelf product and it would save time and money for them and be a product that I believed in. So that's why the sweet Spot came about. Um, and that was cool. And I built probably 50 of those over the next few years.

Four sizes, three colors. Sorry. Is that noise bad? Okay. Um, yeah, and that was, that was more successful than I thought it'd be. It was a scary leap. I mean, I, I, I talk about that like when we get together at nabs and stuff with all the handmade builders. Like, everyone's like, I can't believe you're doing that.

Um, not custom. It's crazy. But, oh, sorry. Go ahead. What?

[00:23:39]Craig Dalton (host): What did that actually look like for you as a builder? Is that just a matter of, okay, now I'm gonna buy 10 sets of tubes at a time, I'm gonna cut 'em, I'm gonna weld them in a batch process. Does it, how did it change kind of how you were approaching it? And I mean, part of it obviously is like a financial commitment, buying all that tubing and putting your energy towards welding something that isn't sold already.

But yeah, maybe just describe like what you went through to get to that

[00:24:05]Adam Sklar: Yeah. I mean, it was a, it was a whole new process to really develop a product, whereas, I guess this is something I've been thinking a lot about, like the custom stuff.

You're, you're solving different issues every time. Um, so from a branding perspective, right, the product is different every time, which is not really good for building a brand. Um, so doing the, the sweet spot, which is the same every time, um, I think it gives a stronger message. It's like, here's what I believe in for a mountain bike.

Um, as far as the logistics of it, they all have the same rear ends, so I. Which is one of the harder things to do, that chainstay part. So I would weld like five at a time of the bottom bracket to chainstay, to dropouts and just kind of keep those around. And then there's a couple other things like bending and slotting and putting a dropper port in for a seat tube.

So I'd keep around a C tube. I was, when I did one, I would do four or something. And so I've got a box of them around and someone orders one and I can like throw the chain stays and the jig, throw the C tube on, and from there it's like four or five hours to finish the frame. So it made it Yeah, really quick to do those.

Um, yeah,

[00:25:23]Craig Dalton (host): Got

[00:25:23]Adam Sklar: nice. And then my painter keeps the paint on hand, so it makes paint go faster. You know, we know all the hardware that we need to have to build it up. Bolts and stuff like that. So I just really streamlined everything and that was cool. People got to get the bikes. Instead of waiting two years, it was three months, which is, I think, more reasonable.

I never intended to have a two year wait. That was, yeah.

[00:25:49]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.

[00:25:51]Adam Sklar: Yeah. Maybe take a

[00:25:52]Craig Dalton (host): and maybe take a moment, Adam, and just describe there, there is something visually unique about the bikes you put out there in the world. I particularly key in on the, the sort of top tube, and that seems to be like a hallmark of the brand at this point. Is that true or do you build bikes with straight, top

[00:26:10]Adam Sklar: yeah. The curvy top tube I started doing very early on. It was, it was mostly because I wanted to alize the tubes, which they're all, they're curvy, but they're, they're pretty ized.

Which, you know, I was in engineering school and we were learning about beams and stuff, and so the, you know, the wider cross section is the ultimate and, uh, Laterally, stiff vertically compliant as they say. So that was sort of what I was going for. But then I also was building frames that looked like that, and I thought, yeah, I mean, what we're talking about with the brand, like I wanted a bike that you could tell without paint was one of my bikes.

Um, and so I think I've achieved that, which is nice. Uh, yeah, it's nice to have

[00:26:53]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, it's super clever.

[00:26:54]Adam Sklar: was a way to be consistent, even though I was building different custom bikes every time, it was still a slar. And I like that.

[00:27:04]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let's, let's jump onto the, the latest model. You're releasing this super something, the gravel bike. I'd love to hear just about some of your design philosophy.

[00:27:14]Adam Sklar: that bike and the

[00:27:15]Craig Dalton (host): With that bike and help the listener understand, you know, who's the intended rider and what are some of the things you considered when designing this bike?

[00:27:23]Adam Sklar: Yeah, so the super something has been exciting. We, um, The first batch went out earlier this year, and the second batch is on a boat from Taiwan right now. So that's exciting. Um, that that project started, yeah, two years ago. It takes about a year to design that bike, but as we've been talking about, it's sort of that culmination of the hundreds of people I've talked to about what they want in a gravel bike, and then that paired with also all these friends who.

Especially during pandemic times when everyone was getting into gravel biking, it felt like I had all these friends, like, what bike should I buy? And I should mention that the custom bikes were, in addition to being a really long wait, were very expensive. And I kind of got bummed, just telling my friends over and over, like maybe.

Like the salsa is really nice. Um, so I wanted to make a bike that in like good conscious, I could tell my friends who are newish to cycling or, you know, maybe an experienced mountain biker, experienced roadie. Like this is a super nice bike that you can build up to be a really cool gravel bike. Um, and yeah, I, experimented, you know, with the rowdy, the rowdy mountain bike ish geometry.

And didn't love that. I love more the experience of riding a bike, like not, you know, engaging, still an engaging ride. So it's, it, it leans a little bit more on that traditional geometry end. Um, it definitely takes into account some elements of new school geometry. So they're designed around a little bit shorter stem.

They're higher offset, um, which allows for a bit of a longer front end, but the trail is still similar to. Like road a little bit more than a road bike. Kind of similar, um, yeah, a little bit more than a road bike. What, what tube

[00:29:23]Craig Dalton (host): And what, what tube set did you end up deciding

[00:29:26]Adam Sklar: So it's our own tube set that we developed there. It's all really nice air hardened, like double butted cro Molly.

It's, it's the good stuff. I mean, I know a lot of brands like slap a label on there and say it's some. Have a name. I don't have a cute name for it, but, um, it is, it's really nice. Um, and it rides super well, so I should, I should come up with a name for it, if anyone has an idea. Yeah. It must have been a pretty

[00:29:55]Craig Dalton (host): So it must have been a pretty heady decision as a custom frame builder and having so put so much energy into your craft.

[00:30:03]Adam Sklar: in

[00:30:03]Craig Dalton (host): A vendor in Taiwan to manufacture this for you? What was that process like to give you the confidence to put your name on this bike with it being produced offshore?

[00:30:13]Adam Sklar: it was huge. Um, I have a great trade partner in Taiwan and you know, in our first meeting he rattled off the companies he works with and it's pretty much every reputable metal bike company that you've heard of, um, does one, which is maybe an industry secret I'm not supposed to reveal. But, um, it's.

They, you know, still hesitant, but we got samples, you know, that process, it took a long time. So four months in, I found I got samples and then I, you know, we checked 'em out, tested 'em, and they're all good to go. Um, they've been really nice to work with. Yeah. The factory, those are made in Max Way, which if you're a big nerd, you've probably heard of, they made, you know, surly salsa all city. I bet you, you know, all the rive Dells and, and then they make, they make so many people's bikes. So very reputable company.

[00:31:11]Craig Dalton (host): Got it.

[00:31:12]Adam Sklar: But yeah, it was a big investment. Huge investment, huge change. Scary for the brand. Um, yeah, big decision for sure. Yeah, for sure.

[00:31:21]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, for sure. I mean, if you think about it as a listener, you know, to bring in 15, 20 complete bikes in one fell swoop, that's a big financial investment. But Adam, I mean, it sounds like you've developed a confidence in your consumer base for the demand for this bike to kind of take that leap. And even if you have to hang onto some frames for a few months while they sell out, you know that they're gonna

[00:31:46]Adam Sklar: Yeah. Yeah, it went really good. We did, I did a little pre-sale, so about a year ago we did a pre-sale on the first batch, and those sold out in like 20 minutes, 250 frames. So that was pretty exciting. And then, The next batch works I'm excited to have in stock. That's cool. And it sounds all good, but from a business perspective, it turns out it's nice to have stuff for people to buy.

So I'm excited. We'll actually have some in stock this time and that'll be nice. Can you.

[00:32:16]Craig Dalton (host): Can you, can you talk through, since you know, obviously in the, in a audio podcast, it's a little difficult to see. I'll definitely be putting links to your website on the show notes, but can you describe kind of the dropout and break mount on the rear end of the bike?

[00:32:32]Adam Sklar: Yeah. So the, the, so the, for the super something dropouts, they use the Paragon Machine Works rocker system. So it's an adjustable dropout. So you can, you can loosen two bolts and you can change the chainstay length, which does a few things. Um, The first is it allows you to run a bigger tire, so slammed all the way forward.

It'll clear like a 700 by 40 feet I think, but if you put them all the way to the back, you can run a 29 by 2.1 inch tire. Um, which is pretty fun. That's what I run on mine and I really like it. Um, also you can kind of tune in. I mean, it's a pretty minor difference, but you can tune in the ride quality a little bit more stable all the way back, a little bit more snappy, all the way forward.

Um, and then, yeah, you can also swap that out. Um, if you wanted to run single speed, you can put in an insert that has no hanger, or now you can do one that's u d h if you wanted to do that. Or you can switch between a post mount or a flat mount break as well with those inserts. So it's really versatile. I wanted something that,

[00:33:42]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.

[00:33:43]Adam Sklar: yeah, after the really unattainable custom bikes for so long, something that was approachable and. you have like a bike you wanna swap the parts off of or do a part spin build, like that's been fun to see people building 'em up in all sorts of different ways. So it's really versatile in that way. And then

[00:34:04]Craig Dalton (host): And then it looks like you might be routing some of the cables externally

[00:34:08]Adam Sklar: Yeah, I'm a full external routing always kind of guy. So they they're they're fully external.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:34:18]Craig Dalton (host): Got it. Yeah. It sounds like, and you sort of expressed this on the website, that depending on what the rider's desires are, you can really configure this

[00:34:28]Adam Sklar: a lot on, you know, on

[00:34:29]Craig Dalton (host): a lot on the, you know, on the spectrum of, um, 20 niner

[00:34:34]Adam Sklar: pouring bike,

[00:34:35]Craig Dalton (host): touring bike, gravel bike kind of style, mountain bike style, all the way to something a little bit r or on the other end of the spectrum.

[00:34:42]Adam Sklar: Yeah. I mean, it really was, it was designed, I mean, my, my gravel bikes typically look like 4,700 by 40 C with a decent amount of like, saddle to bar drop. I, I wouldn't say racy, but maybe more traditional road bike fit. And so that's sort of what I had in mind in that. But it turns out that that geometry is really similar to like, The rigid 29 ERs that I was riding in 2008.

And so they're really fun set up that way. And we've seen people do, you know, flat bars or like a sweat back bar. Um, I also, it was fun. I built up a 60, so I ride a 58, but I sized up to a 60 centimeter frame and that's the bike I just rode on the tour divide. So it was like much more stable. I had a ton of room for my frame bag.

That was so, I had so much fun on that set up too. So it's been cool to experiment with it and have, instead of, I'm so used to being able to, you know, change every millimeter, but it's been fun to be like, oh, I'll just do a different stem, like a normal person.

[00:35:50]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.

[00:35:51]Adam Sklar: Yeah.

[00:35:53]Craig Dalton (host): That's amazing. Now I have to geek out on do, were you on the tour divide

[00:35:57]Adam Sklar: Yeah. I left at the Grand Apart, um, from Banff with, with everyone.

[00:36:03]Craig Dalton (host): Amazing. Like without, I feel like we could go another half hour if

[00:36:07]Adam Sklar: Oh yeah.

[00:36:08]Craig Dalton (host): the questions. I would wanna ask about

[00:36:10]Adam Sklar: It was fun. If I wrote a, I rode a super something on it and it did. It was, yeah, it was so fun. Wouldn't, wouldn't have taken a different bike. But tour divide was hard also, I'll say that. Yeah. It sounds

[00:36:21]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, it sounds like everybody got caught with some pretty tough weather conditions and it's a pretty tough year to do

[00:36:28]Adam Sklar: it was. It was a little wet.

[00:36:32]Craig Dalton (host): Did it, um, did it dramatically change, end up changing, like how long it you thought it was gonna take you to complete?

[00:36:38]Adam Sklar: And you know, I, I didn't do the whole thing. I should be clear about that. But, um, I, yeah, I rode, I rode home from Banff. Um, I thought I was gonna make it to Denver, but yeah. Um, I made it, I made it back to Bozeman. Um, the weather, we missed that. The real money part I think was that great base in section in Wyoming.

And. We were also, there was a section right by Yeah. Where I stopped and it was 40 degrees and raining and my friend had a, his family has a ranch right there with good food and a creek to sit in and I couldn't help myself but peel off, so, but it was beautiful. I mean, it's such amazing riding all the way through there.

It's, the Canada section was so beautiful.

[00:37:29]Craig Dalton (host): And were you were, did you set your super or something up with a drop bar or were you

[00:37:33]Adam Sklar: I did a drop bar. Yeah. Big. The crust towel rack is that 670 millimeter bar and it's so, I love that bike. It's, I, I love it so much that I sold my two other drop bar bikes. 'cause I just, I, I'm having so much fun on that bike.

Um, yeah.

[00:37:53]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Amazing. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad you dropped that at the last minute. I'm such a tour

[00:37:58]Adam Sklar: Oh, really

[00:37:59]Craig Dalton (host): I've thought about it on a number of occasions to do it and just trying to carve out that right moment in my life to be able to

[00:38:06]Adam Sklar: Totally. It's a commitment, but I would recommend it if you have ever wanted to do it. It's, it's really cool.

[00:38:15]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, no doubt about that. Awesome. Adam, any anything else you'd like the listener to know about the brand while we have you?

[00:38:25]Adam Sklar: What would I want them to know? Uh, bikes are fun. We make fun bikes. Check out the soup or [email protected], production mountain bike coming next year. If you do those two, uh, send me an email if you have any questions.

I'm happy to chat. Okay,

[00:38:45]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. I love it. Adam, thank you so much for the time. It was great to get to know you a little bit and, uh, I can't wait to see more of these bikes out there. I find 'em just so visually appealing and I like what you've described as the vision for how these bikes are created and conceived and what their intended uses are.

So keep up all the good

[00:39:05]Adam Sklar: Craig. Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

Community, exchange, interdependence, celebration, purpose: in this episode, Randall and O+ Founder Joe Concra share an example of bicycles serving as a vehicle first for connection, and from there serendipity, collaboration, and the creation of meaning. Join Joe, Randall, and other members of the community at the O+ Festival in Kingston, NY from October 6-8 for a weekend of music, art, riding, and wellness. https://opositivefestival.org/

Episode sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use code THEGRAVELRIDE for free HRM)

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Join The Ridership

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I'm going to hand the mic over to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's joined by Joe conqueror. Joe is the founder of the O positive festival. In New York. He's joining. Randal's talk about community and how the bicycle serves as a vehicle for connection. I think you'll enjoy this conversation. But before we jump in i need to thank this week sponsor hammerhead and the hammerhead crew to computer

The hammerhead crew too, is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today with industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities. That set it apart from other GPS options, free global maps and points of interest included like cafes and campsite. It means you could explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. Once again, the other night I was hit with hammerheads bi-weekly software update where new features are released so unlike other head units, your crew too continues to evolve and improve each ride, getting better than the last. Personally, I love the climbing feature. That's available on the crew too. One thing I noted in comparison to some of the other devices I've used is that now the climber feature kicks in whether or not you've got a route loaded or not. That's super important. I was riding the other day, testing out another device and I had a climb that's very known, but I didn't have a route loaded. And all of a sudden that climbing feature wasn't available. I very much appreciate what the engineers at hammerhead have done to make this computer as good as it can be, but to continue to improve it. For a limited time, our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead crew to just visit hammerhead.io right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. This is an exclusive limited time offer for our podcast listeners. So don't forget to use the code. Duck gravel ride. That's a free heart rate monitor with your purchase of a career to. From hammerhead.io. With that business behind us. I'm going to hand the mic over to Randall and I'll talk to y'all next week.

[00:02:33] Randall Jacobs (host): Where do we

[00:02:33] Joe Concra: begin? I don't know. The Randall Joe Comedy Hour. I have no idea. Where do you wanna start? Well,

[00:02:38] Randall Jacobs (host): how about origin story because people have asked me this a number of times and I actually don't know if I get it right. I think I get the high level of it, like how we met,

[00:02:47] Joe Concra: how we met.

Huh? How did we, you you go back a little ways now. Yeah. So here, this is what I remember. It was a dark and stormy night. And, uh, now if I remember correctly, so I'm sure we'll get into o positive and what O positive is at some point, but I was doing. As I often do research on partners for O positive to help this crazy experiment continue.

But I'm also like a mad cyclist, mad being the operative word. And I somehow found thesis and I think I just wrote to the info at and was like, I think this model's really awesome. And I do this festival where we exchange for healthcare, which probably doesn't make any sense at all. And. Would you like to come talk about being a sponsor or a partner?

Yeah. And then you said, we're actually gonna be on the east coast. And then I ridiculously said, well, why don't you swing through Kingston and we can demo a bike? Which then I had to buy a bike. That's how

[00:03:51] Randall Jacobs (host): that why you bought a

[00:03:51] Joe Concra: bike. Well, I rode it. Okay. I mean, it was pretty simple. Once you ride it, you're like, okay, this bike's amazing.

I should probably ride more gravel and get off the road. I've survived this long in my life without being killed by a car. So, uh, yeah, that's why. Is that close to what you remember? That's

[00:04:07] Randall Jacobs (host): more or less exactly the way I tell the story. Yeah. So essentially you'd reached out and, the way I've told it is you had said, Hey, I like what you guys are doing.

I'm thinking about getting a bike also, here's what I do and you should come check out Kingston. Um, and then that evolved into, you know, we did a small, uh, event at, uh, utility bikes.

[00:04:28] Joe Concra: Yes. Uh, great time.

[00:04:29] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And really from that first moment there was a seed planted in me about being here. Some listeners will know I now live in Kingston, but

[00:04:37] Joe Concra: we're closing the gate after you.

Yeah. Like nobody else, like, oh yeah. Don't come here. It's not fun here. It's terrible here. Yeah. Don't, this is not where you want to be. Yeah.

[00:04:46] Randall Jacobs (host): And I remember, at the time I was becoming, I wasn't quite done with San Francisco, but , I was getting to a different place in life and didn't quite know what would come next.

And that seed was watered every single time I came back and I kept coming back. Mm-hmm. So, I'm trying to remember, I think the next time I came, we had a little team summit. Mm-hmm. A couple of team members during Covid. And, we were here with you and, you showed us around, and we were here for a couple of days and that was great.

I remember ending up on your roof deck, looking at the mountains on this beautiful day with my colleagues, and then the next time I came, I think it might have been my first O positive. Did the gravel ride.

Yep. I made a couple of friends on the ride who are now friends here that, you were starting the, what was then trust hub now Trust up project. Mm-hmm. And, you were looking for somebody to, to help run it. You had this idea for something and some funding lined up.

And. I joined the, the hiring committee. And now, I've been involved as a advisor and now, Rob Jameson, who runs that project is a good friend. Yeah. And so, on a very personal level, like you've had a pretty big impact on my life.

Through the direct things that you've done with me, but then also, just the, the resonance that I felt while being here, hanging out with you, the people I met through you and through the, the, the community that is here. so much so that I moved here, I bought my first house. That's says a lot about, about you and about this place, and this is a place that has a significant amount of your influence on it.

Hmm. You walk around and you have the murals and you see the little o positive, the bottom of the mural. And, you know, there's a number of community initiatives that have been kicked off in this area, presumably stemming from that initial o positive grant when you first got the festival off the ground or, or a few years after that.

Mm-hmm. So .

[00:06:43] Joe Concra: Thank you. Yeah. I'm so glad we're not. Like you actually said, do you want to do this with video? And I, and it's because of this, cuz I be, people would see that I'm bee red right now. Um, because I'm, I thank you. And also, like, it makes me very uncomfortable to hear these things. I feel like everybody does the best they can.

And you get lucky to create space for things to happen if you're really, you know, if you really, really think about what we do. As human beings, as people listen to this as cyclists, right? We're always looking for the gaps. We're always looking for the space. We're always looking for that. That thing between the thing, right?

At least I know I am. So when we met, I was like, oh, well here's the bike I'm going to ride, and this, this guy seems really interesting. I want to know more about what they're doing and what gives somebody a. Like, why does somebody wanna reinvent the wheel? Is literally what I thought when I meant you, like you want to bring down costs, you want this thing to be this, this way you're designing it.

It's amazing. Like same for me, like being on a bicycle for me in the woods, being out. Like last night I went riding in some hippie, decided to destroy my knee, but it was a voodoo doll. And we'll get to that. And uh, I wanna keep you all the same. You're riding in Woodstock. Yeah. No close. Rosendale, same thing.

Yeah. Um, but you know, There is a desire to work a lot in community and do a lot of really good things. The counter weight to that is being on your bicycle and being alone. Yeah, so I can tell you that the thesis bike that I ride more than any road riding I did since 1982 on right. Being in the woods on gravel alone and like riding by a beaver pond and seeing an owl.

At seven o'clock at night in the Hudson Valley is the quiet, it gets the monkeys outta your head and quiets you down. So I'm very, very thankful for, you know, what you've designed. This podcast. I really like the, I really like what's on Slack. I think that's really, really great. It's able to communicate with people on the ridership is great.

So, you know, there's mutual respect in that way. I think that it's really, really important just to acknowledge how. You know, cyclists are weird, right? They're like hockey goalies, soccer goalies, cyclists, place kickers in football, right? They're, every cyclist I know is like, yeah, I really wanna be your friend, but also leave me alone.

Like it's this weird dichotomy, like they've got their hand up and come here at the same time, which I really appreciate and I find that really, really, really, I'm just thankful

[00:09:19] Randall Jacobs (host): You have maybe more of an outside view on cycling and cyclists than I do, cuz I had just been in it for so long.

Mm-hmm. Like I was a competitive cyclist for a period and that's its own kind of mindset. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. worked for, worked in the industry quite a bit for quite a long time. I mean, obviously I have a company I do this podcast and so on, so I was like in it versus you are, I think first and foremost, what.

An artist, a community builder.

[00:09:47] Joe Concra: Yeah. I think first and foremost, I, I make paintings. I mean, that, that's what I do. Right. And then I do all these other things outside of the studio. Right. So I, I run a nonprofit with my friends who, which I built since two in 2010, um, that exchanges art and music for medicine at the festival you've been to every year?

Yep. We're about to go year-round with a clinic after 13 years to take care of artists, musicians based on an exchange model, not based on money, trying to take money outta the system. Um, and. I ride bikes and I've ridden bikes like every day of my life for my entire life because I love them and surround myself with cyclists and just riding in general.

Um, so yeah, not a pro avid cyclist, I think is what they would call it back in the day. An avid

[00:10:26] Randall Jacobs (host): cyclist. Well, before we, we dive in on the, the clinic and o positive and so on. I'm just, uh, want to kind of pull at this thread. What, what do you notice? Do you notice patterns amongst cyclists in particular? So you mentioned

[00:10:41] Joe Concra: like, can I just throw this?

Can I throw a cyclist under the bus? Like metaphorically?

[00:10:44] Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, we're under there. All right. It does

[00:10:47] Joe Concra: too. I think everybody listening to this knows this. This isn't a secret. But I was a road rider for years. Mm-hmm. Like back in the, you know, you turn whatever age you get your, you save up your money cuz you're working at McDonald's or your newspaper route and you buy your first road bike, it's like a Ross, it's yellow, it's ugly as hell.

Then you graduate to your next bike and you get a Schwinn cuz you think that's the best bike, whatever. And you're, Greg Lamonts, your, all those things. Then you spend years in group road rides and you do a little bit of like racing, like you and stuff, and you do all the things and you train to, and you go on group rides.

A couple years ago, after getting the thesis four years ago now, I stopped. Hmm. And I was like, what a culture shift. I'm not hammering, I'm riding with my friends, I'm getting a great workout. I'm in the woods and just recently, and I know people are gonna listen to this and know me, and I rode ride with him.

Please don't put your pump into my spokes when we ride together. But I went on a group ride again, a road group ride, and it was terrible. I spent the whole time looking at the wheel in front of me and somebody's back when I went to the front. I got to say I have a good, nice view, but that's what I noticed more than anything else.

People are moving away from that way of riding to a more community based ride. For instance, you mentioned utility bikes. There's a whole generation of kids in sneakers and cutoff jeans. Yeah. And that's their ride. That's how they ride. Yeah. The old guys like me wearing stupid spandex, plastic shit. Like, sorry, I didn't mean to curse.

Can I curse on a

[00:12:23] Randall Jacobs (host): podcast? No, no. That's definitely gonna get us in trouble.

[00:12:26] Joe Concra: Well, sorry. Ftc. F F, fda, whatever, whatever. Regulatory agency. Not the human consumption,

[00:12:32] Randall Jacobs (host): fda,

[00:12:34] Joe Concra: But I think that's the big shift, right? There's been this massive cultural shift. I'm a little bit nervous to see money going into gravel riding.

Yeah, in a way that I think it might screw it up a little bit. It starts getting a little bit competitive where I really like the, like, like the first big long distance gravel ride I did. I remember like getting ready and being like a little bit nervous, like it was a race. I kept reminding myself it's a ride, and then like some dude passes me cranking out Aerosmith on a boombox tied, tied underneath his top tube wearing a cowboy hat, cut off jeans and sneakers smoking a joint, and I'm like, this is amazing.

I couldn't believe it. I was like, what a different culture. So I, I hope that that culture, um, exists and keeps growing. I,

[00:13:15] Randall Jacobs (host): I think it will. I think gravel specifically, there's something about the medium that is itself, very conducive to that. You're doing mixed terrain riding. You're leaving from your back door.

It's not like a road ride where. You're either going solo or you might be going on some group hammer ride. The train isn't changing all that much and so on. Or a mountain bike ride where you're hopping in your car. so there's something more out the door. I think the events that I've been to, there's definitely a trend towards, elite racing.

Mm-hmm. , we, we've had, event organizers, for some of the biggest races on the pod, uh, had, have had elite racers on the pod and so on. Mm-hmm. And like, that's its own thing. And as a, I would've joked in the past and I almost did it again, I was gonna say a recovering racer, but at the time I was racing, it was great.

Yeah. Like I was living my best life. And just because current me isn't into that, Doesn't mean that past me was getting it wrong, cuz future me is definitely gonna look at current me and say what were you doing at that time? Right. Yeah. And the other thing I'd say is if you're more resonant with one way of riding create that and let people migrate to it,

like the utility ride and a couple of the rides around here. But also what we've talked about, growing o positive rides around that, there's no race. It's more like, here's a ride where we're gonna go out and have a shared adventure. go through a share shared ordeal.

It'll be accessible to riders of a variety of different abilities. And then we're gonna have a party after. Totally.

[00:14:43] Joe Concra: in fact, it's a whole weekend of

[00:14:44] Randall Jacobs (host): a party. Yeah, let's talk about that. So let's get in, but I also, what are, what are the dates?

[00:14:48] Joe Concra: Uh, this year will be October 6th, seven and eight.

Yep. And, but I just wanna say this for all my roadie friends, cuz I still go out on the road, don't hate me, but there's road rides at Oak Positive too. Are road ride right? Mean there's road gravel and a mural to mural tour. Mm-hmm. Um, for families and kid-friendly and bring your dogs and whatever craft you want to try to pedal around.

Yep. Uh, the city of Kingston. So I'll give you a little bit of the origin story and what we do cause I think that'll probably help people. So if you haven't heard about o Positive, which I suppose most people haven't, um, we are based in Kingston, New York. And our festivals, which are music and art based, every artist and musician who plays the festival.

Puts up a mural, dances tells comedy, whatever they do. In exchange, we build a clinic, and in that clinic are 160 providers. Everyone sees a doctor, has access to a dentist, mental health professionals, acupuncture, massage, you name it, it's all there. We started in 2010 with a really simple idea. As a painter, it was very, it was very, Easy to say, well you know what, we never have insurance.

So what if we did a festival where instead of paying the artists with money, cuz we didn't have any money anyway, we got a bunch of doctors who loved music and art and said, would you see these people? So what started as a very, very small festival in 2010? We've done 22 festivals nationwide. Our home base is here in Kingston every year in October.

We do the big one here and, uh, it's grown to include gravel riding and a whole weekend of experiential yoga and sound healing dance parties. You name it, it happens from Friday night till Sunday night. When is

[00:16:23] Randall Jacobs (host): this coming out? We can put it out whenever.

[00:16:25] Joe Concra: Okay. Whenever makes sense. I can give you a headliner.

So yeah, this year one of our headliners will be comedy. It's bobcat. Goldway. I dunno if you remember him from the movies and, but I remember it was a standup guy with that crazy voice. But I can't wait to say hi to him and meet him and thank him for making me laugh for years. Because especially coming outta the pandemic, like, we're not dead yet.

Like, we should laugh. Like, we should be like, holy shit, we're alive. Like, let's enjoy this moment. And hopefully he'll go to the doctor, he'll go to the dentist, he'll talk about mental health, you know, and, and people will be able to come out and enjoy the weekend. Yeah.

[00:16:58] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, that was one of the things that really resonated with me when I first started looking into a positive and getting to know you and coming here was this feeling of okay, there, are there issues in the world that affect me personally?

Like I have a significant concern about engaging with the medical system, the medical industrial complex because you hear horror stories. And I know people who've been bankrupted by a system that, on the one hand people say, here in America we have the best healthcare in the world.

Well, you might add the caveat that money can buy. Mm-hmm. But, unless you have really good insurance you can end up drained, if you're a small business owner or something like that.

Yeah. and you don't have a platinum package. And then there's all these ways in which it deals with symptoms and not with underlying issues. Mm-hmm. Like mental health isn't simply going to a therapist once a week, though I've had periods in my life where that was really helpful in transitioning and getting context and so on, but it's much more holistic.

It's like, do you feel a sense of belonging in your community? Mm-hmm. are you part of something bigger than yourself where other people rely on you for certain things and when you have need people are there to help you out. And that's something I, I experienced from day one, uh, upon moving here.

And I have it within my family and I've had it within friend groups, but to a lesser degree, in other places cuz people lived to apart or like they're too focused on their career or whatever it else. Mm-hmm. I had some very dear friends in San Francisco, but, everyone's really busy.

Mm-hmm. I didn't know my neighbors. I lived in a building with six units. And I barely ever spoke my neighbors, despite my best efforts, right? Mm-hmm. I, you know, I'm very gregarious in that way. And the dynamics here were different. And last year was really the tipping point for me being at the festival and just seeing how all the things that I liked about, say, something like burning Man, but without the excess and the exclusivity and the whole place of washing and money, even though it's pretending not to be about money. Mm-hmm. and you're seeing live music and you're celebrating with your neighbors. Mm-hmm. Like, you're in celebration with people that you're going to see the next day at the cafe.

Mm-hmm. Or my neighbor works at the convenience store on the corner. Mm-hmm. You know, things like this. that's a very different thing that for me, I, I had this feeling of wanting something and not knowing what it was. Mm. And then when I experienced that, I was like, this is it.

Mm. This is the thing where, I go positive for me represents something much bigger. As big as the healthcare component of it is. Mm-hmm. It, it is, is a different mindset in many

[00:19:37] Joe Concra: ways. Yeah. I think, I mean, that's, So wonderful to hear you say that. I would say that because O Positive takes money out of a system that people are used to having run by money for three days and says, Hey look, this can be different.

The whole tenor of that weekend feels. Like what you just said, it feels inclusive, it feels community. And people have always said, I can't even describe what it is. And I'm like, well, don't worry about it because we're not used to it. Right. Like we are not used to living in a system where we go, you know, that's not, I mean, yes, we take donations to come into the festival, we run on donations, right.

But when you go through the clinic, if you're an artist or musician or volunteer, and you go through that clinic and you get a root canal in exchange for playing your set, Mm-hmm. That's a whole different conversation because what it does is it says, Hey, we value each other equally. Yes. And that is different because we live in a system that does not value people equally ever.

We value money first, usually, and we say it, oh, positive, not this weekend. Not this weekend. And that is vital. And the other thing that I think that's really important is you recently moved to a town where. You know, it's in flux. Yes. Because people have moved in, in, in droves here during the pandemic, but also like we introduced artists, musicians for 13 years now to their local doctor.

So we hear it on the medical side. Like, I love being a doctor here because I know these patients, these are now my friends. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because when you're at that show and you're dancing Yes. That doctor's dancing next to you. Yep. And that is totally cool because the lab coat's not on. Yeah. And we take, we just peel away.

All of the, all of the things that we, all the baggage we bring.

[00:21:29] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, so you mentioned money and, and we can really distill it down to using price, denoted in money as the sole driver of exchanges. And so you need a thing. And you go on Amazon and you order the thing cuz it's the lowest price and it gets delivered at your door and you get up the next day or a couple days later and it's there.

Right? Mm-hmm. You have no relationship with the person who made it. You probably don't even interact with the person who delivered it. Right. There's no relationship there. Mm-hmm. Nobody involved in that exchange is going to be there for you when you don't have money to buy a thing. Right.

Right. And furthermore there's benefits of providing things to other people that are not incorporated in what you get paid. Like I don't help out my neighbor when he needs to move an air conditioner because he's gonna pay me. I do it because it's an opportunity to hang out.

Mm-hmm. And because the day I moved in, he was coming over the fence to say hello and we were talking about taking down the fence. yeah. And, having that sort of Interdependency and having exchanged that is taking into account. Like, I get to interact with you, I get to be in community with you. That has value. the other thing you mentioned, valuing everybody the same, the trust up project. Core to that vision when you initially pitched it was this concept of time banking. Mm-hmm. It took me some time to get my head around it. I kept wanting to fit it into a model of like, oh, well maybe somebody can earn two time credits if their service is worth more.

Right. Or something like that. It's like, no, no, that's not how it works. Maybe talk about some of that concept and how it integrates into the mindset around what you're building with o

[00:23:03] Joe Concra: positive. Well, yeah, I mean, it's interesting, right? If we talk, first of all, I mean, The dollar is a great unit, unit of measure, right?

We all agree that this is the unit of measure, so I get that side of the story. I think what we are trying to address is the inequity of that dollar and how that dollar is different values for each, for different professions. So if we think about time banking or we think about just straight exchanges, what you want to do is even get away from what you said.

In our mind, it's like, no, a doctor visit isn't worth two units of measure. Yeah. Right. You don't

[00:23:39] Randall Jacobs (host): need a medium of exchange. It's a, it's, it's a direct exchange.

[00:23:42] Joe Concra: Exactly. It's harder. Exactly. And time is just time. Yeah. I will give my time, whatever that time would take mm-hmm. To do this task. Oh, I am available.

I could also let you use my lawnmower for this much time. I mean, Yeah, this, the funny part is Randall, at the end of the day, I think what we are doing in all the things we're doing here in Kingston and, and other small communities that are doing a lot of these things, we're just trying to get back to the way our grandparents lived in community.

We've somehow lost our way cuz we've gone so global to really hyper-local action and, you know, oh, positive to me, from the beginning, sitting at this exact table, like writing it all up and coming up with friends and dreaming it all up. Was about knowing that my grandparents, who had nothing would trade sweet potatoes to see the doctor with their doctor.

And that was enough for the doctor. The doctor always had sweet potatoes. Somebody else would give 'em money. My grandparents could give him sweet potatoes, so they got to go to the doctor. So, you know, it's, it's just a different way of being a neighbor.

[00:24:48] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. Well I think that the getting to be a neighbor is, Really the essential bit, being in community has value and there is resiliency that comes into it that doesn't get banked in the sense that there's some ledger. Mm-hmm. Right? Mm-hmm. But it's banked in the sense that people have a certain feeling around you.

Mm-hmm. And you around them. And when there is hardship, that trust in those relationships that are built up mm-hmm. Form a web of interdependence Amazon's not gonna be there for you if you don't have any money to buy the thing. Right. and you know, it may be more expensive to make certain things locally and there's certain goods that it makes sense to centralize and distribute long distances and so on. But there's a lot of things where it does that doesn't make sense. And the price mechanism only works because there's so much direct subsidy in the firm of government subsidies, tax breaks, and so on.

Or there's indirect subsidies in the sense that there's all these negative externalities, depletion of soil fertility or pollution of the water or pollution of the air, or changes in climate , that are not incorporated into the price.

And that's Economics 1 0 1. You get Adam Smith's various market failures taught early on. And then you forget about them from then on when you get your neoliberal economics education. That was my undergraduate.

Wow. Yeah. That, that

[00:26:04] Joe Concra: sounds, yeah. Well, it's interesting what you, what you were just saying. You know, as you're talking, I'm like, oh my God, yes. Oh my God. Oh, it's too big. Oh, what do we do about, because people need money to pay to buy food. Still, we're not, we don't have a, we haven't built a perfect system.

What we're trying to do is show people what's possible and then hopefully they can go to their own communities and do something that is important to them to do, because, you know, we are not gonna get away from this system tomorrow or the next day. We may not even have a planet by the time we're ready to get rid of this system and change it with something else.

But in the meantime, we sure as hell can try and we sure as hell can build something that like someone like you is attracted to, right? Like, we know people have moved here because of O positive, like you just said it, but like we've been getting that for years because I wanna live in a community that actually values art and medicine and everything else.

Equally, that's life, right? Without that, what do we have? Like, I don't know. I don't wanna live in a world without art and music and caring for each

[00:27:06] Randall Jacobs (host): other, but we can have some sense of security from accumulating lots of things and living in a big house with a tall fence or Yeah. Or building a big buffer of dollars in our bank account or something like this.

But, I don't think that the issue is gonna be, we're not gonna have a planet. I mean, the planet's not going anywhere. The question is how well it's going to support the sort of existence that we actually want to have for ourselves and those we care about. I view it as kind of a series of incremental experiments.

Mm-hmm. You know, not everything sticks. Not everything works. And I love the, iteration process

[00:27:38] Joe Concra: did you see the waste basket behind me with all the different ideas that are just all over the floor, like thousands of them.

Like just the things that don't work. Oh my God, that time I was gonna start, you know, give mayonnaise to a tuna and cut out the middle man, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:27:52] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, I mean, being going for 13 years, so that says something. Yeah, it's hard.

[00:27:57] Joe Concra: It's, um, you know, we survive off the support of the community.

At the festival, everybody gets tickets. There's a price to it, but it's, it's like $75 for three days, which is insane. Um, and if you don't have that, we have community tickets available for everybody. So it's, it's, you know, It's a very low barrier to entry. In fact, if you have nothing, I'm sure we can let you in.

So it's very simple to, to get involved and to, to do it and to do the work. I think that the, the hard part, We started as all volunteers and now we have a staff cuz we're going year round. Mm-hmm. Right. When we're taking over a space, we're building a clinic that's gonna open on August 11th. We're gonna go from three days to 365 with the dream of having a building that has music every night and art every night.

And people can just wonder what the hell's happening there. But you get healthcare at the same time. Right. So we're like a Trojan horse of healthcare. Right. We make a party and inside that party, Are all these doctors and dentists and massage therapists and acupuncturists and mental health professionals.

So we still need people's money, right? We still need the dollar while we build a separate system. And that is the hardest part. Like, that's what I worry about every day. How do we keep the lights on? And, um, it's daunting. That was my reality

[00:29:15] Randall Jacobs (host): check. Yeah. I mean, it is the part that, um, I'm excited to, you know, be more involved with.

As you know, my, my other commitments are less all-encompassing. Mm-hmm. Uh, building a house amongst them. Yeah.

[00:29:28] Joe Concra: Have you told people about your house? Uh, I've mentioned it because you say building a house, but does everybody know that you like bought like a. Freaking falling down log cabin in a city that nobody even knew was there.

It was covered in brambles. Like you guys, you all have to see and ladies, you, he Randall needs to, needs to post pictures from this place cuz it's like some weird mountain man's retreat from, but like 1970s with like shag carpets and bong hits everywhere. Like, but you're doing an amazing job. There may have

[00:29:57] Randall Jacobs (host): been some paraphernalia previously.

Less bongs and more bullet casings. Yes. Um, in flashband grenades.

[00:30:05] Joe Concra: Really? Oh yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's

[00:30:08] Randall Jacobs (host): pretty, that, that was a scary day when I found

[00:30:09] Joe Concra: those. Wow. That's ama It's pretty phenomenal what you found. And you are literally resurrecting someone's dream cabin from the 1970s and making it your own.

Yeah. And

[00:30:20] Randall Jacobs (host): it'll be, uh, it'll be a community space as well, like adding, uh, a couple of, uh, loft bedrooms in there that I. Uh, we'll make available for, for people to, to, you know, coli. And then, um, there's a new ADU law accessory Dwelling Unit law in Kingston. Be attending some meetings around that and hopefully I can build a couple of smaller structures on the property.

Nice. And then everyone who's on the property would have access to the main cabins, so like the grand room and the kitchen and the solarium off the back and so on. And have it be, um, well, I, I want, I want to learn permaculture. Mm-hmm. I want to grow as much food as I can fit. On that small little parcel in the city.

Mm-hmm. Have some fruit trees facing the street that people can walk by and graze from. Mm-hmm. As I've enjoyed doing with the, uh, I think, uh, most recently it's, I got raspberries coming in and then, uh, there's lots of, uh, oh, what's the, the tr the tree berry that looks like a blackberry. That poison berry?

Uh, mulberry. Mulberry. Mulberry.

[00:31:15] Joe Concra: Oh my god. Mulberry's everywhere right now. The

[00:31:17] Randall Jacobs (host): birds love them. Yeah. Yeah. I just like stand under, stand on sidewalks, under, under trees and just like, you know, eat Yeah. Eat my weight and, and mulberries in those. Yeah. Sit there for 30 minutes and my hands and mouth are all, you know, blackish purple.

Uh, but yeah, that, that is something that I'm, I'm, uh, You know, it's still very much a still, still early stage, but as soon as it is structurally sound, um, there'll be, there'll be

[00:31:46] Joe Concra: gatherings. So you haven't put any pictures up on the ground? You got? Not really. No. You have to kind of behind the radar. It's crazy now that we've talked about it.

People have to see it. Yeah.

[00:31:56] Randall Jacobs (host): Um, so let's talk about, well, let's talk about, so come to a positive. What's the experience?

[00:32:01] Joe Concra: Yeah. Um, you get a wristband for three days. You have access to this year, ob. I said earlier about Bobcat, but there'll be 50 bands, maybe more. Um, several different stages to four or five different stages throughout the city.

It's all walkable. Um, the art will be, I think there's five or six muralists we have. It's a very small city of 22,000, but we have 60 murals up at this point. Mm-hmm. Um, there'll be five. More murals going up this year. Um, plus all the other art events that are happening. Dance and readings and performances and spoken word.

And, you know, you go to go on the website and as we start announcing the schedule, you'll get to see it. It's pretty exciting. Um, headlining music, amethyst Kia is playing. Um, there's a bunch, there's so many bands. It's, it's every year we're like, can we do 30? And it ends up being 50. And then you still reject.

Hundreds and hundreds of bands apply and you always feel terrible because you can't accommodate them all. But the clinic can only handle so many artist musicians. So that's one reason for us going year round that is so important. So we could have every night having people seen and then, you know, the whole weekend just feels joyful.

And Saturday morning, Those of us who ride get together and go on a 50 to 60 mile road ride. Um, the gravel ride, I think we will design it as like a 30 to 35 mile ramble down all the trails that Kingston is a hub for the Empire State Trail and a number of other trails. Mm-hmm. So we'll ramble down some trails to New Paltz and probably go up into Mohawk a little bit and then come back around and have a barbecue after and a big party and enjoy that.

And really, I mean, it's like you get a gravel ride, but you get like, All this music and all this art all weekend long.

[00:33:43] Randall Jacobs (host): Yeah. And this, the, in terms of the venues, uh, so there's Kegan Nails. Yep. Uh, which, you know, brew Brewery, local Brewer has been there for a while. And there's a, a whole stage there as well.

Uhhuh, that's one of the venues. You have the old Dutch church. Yeah. Beautiful. Uh, just beautiful. And that is a music venue. And that's where the big, I know last year, Kimra amongst others. Yep.

[00:34:04] Joe Concra: Kimra played there in Mercury. Rev played there. I'm trying to think else who played there last year. But yeah, it's a beautiful space.

It's a Dutch reform church. It's one of the oldest buildings in the city.

[00:34:12] Randall Jacobs (host): It's, which is an old city. This was the original capital of New York state. Yeah.

[00:34:16] Joe Concra: Yeah, it was a fence around it to keep out people. It was very weird the way it was taken over. Oh, the stockade. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But hey, we're learning, you know, every couple years in the city of Kingston, they do this thing called the burning of Kingston.

And just one year I wanna just see if it actually will just burn. Like, I'm just like, why are we celebrating the, there's this, they do this celebration. This gives everybody an idea of like what living in Springfield and the Simpsons really is like every two years they, everybody dresses up in red coats and.

So, and, um, revolutionary wore outfits and they chased the red coats around the streets and forced them out. But the reality is when the red coats got here, everybody just left. Like everybody just, everybody just went to the next town. Nobody fought. Everybody's like, whatever. Take the town. We don't care.

But in our myth making history in our American myth making history, this town has turned it into this event where, you know, we held off the British, we didn't, it was no holding off. In fact, if we would've not held them off, maybe we would have a healthcare system. Not saying it would work great, but maybe we'd have a national healthcare system.

So too bad we won. Yeah. Um,

[00:35:22] Randall Jacobs (host): myth making.

Uh,

[00:35:23] Joe Concra: but it's true. We make such crazy myths in this country about our history. Well, that's true of

[00:35:27] Randall Jacobs (host): any. Any country, any culture, totally. Any, I mean, myth is essential to unifying groups of humans, uh, for collective action, for community, for cohesion. Yeah. Shared myths are essential.

I mean, money, we talked about money earlier. Money is a shared myth. That's true. Why does it add value? Like what can you do with money? Muddy? Yeah. I mean, it has a little bit of thermal energy if you burn it, but not much compared to what you have to do to acquire it. Um, but no, it's the, the fact that you believe that this dollar is.

So, I mean, that's no

[00:35:58] Joe Concra: different, right? Well, except that everybody dressed up in costumes and chases everybody around the streets firing muskets. I mean, that's just weird. Yeah. I mean, I suppose so I think it's actually this year, by the way, and, and it, you, there have been years where it's taken place during O positive, so you get all these musicians and like leather and like weird outfits.

Amongst just itself, like a, you know, it's costume. This is my, it's its own mythmaking. Yeah. Oh my God. The rock and roll myths don't even get me started. But, uh, but it's pretty wild to see. Yeah. Rock and roll costumes and colonial costumes at the same time.

[00:36:30] Randall Jacobs (host): That's super funny. So we talked a bit about the festival, talked about the rides that are going on.

Yeah. Another thing I just wanna share about, you know, from a personal experience standpoint, with the festival is. There, I found, anyways, something very serendipitous, which is to say, I showed up. I, I know you, I knew peripherally a few people, who I'd bumped into. Um, and then I went on the ride and I saw some people I'd seen on the ride, the previous year and had spoken with a bit, but didn't, you know, couldn't even remember their names and so on.

Mm-hmm. But there was enough of like, oh yeah, I remember you from last year, and. What started as like, alright, I'm gonna go check out Kingston. Cause I feel drawn to there for some reason, but I'm going solo and I don't really know anybody. Ended up being like a series of serendipitous little events where I get pulled into something.

It's like, oh hey, like you're, you know, um, you were here last year. Oh, you know, I, I'm, you know, what do you do? Oh, I do this. Oh. Oh, what do you do? Oh, I'm a musician. I'm actually playing across from Rough Draft. Mm-hmm. Uh, tomorrow. And I go to that show and I see other people from the ride and then hanging out with him afterwards.

And it's. And get invited to another thing to, to go sit around a fire. I actually, in that case it was, uh, it was, it was, uh, I get a text from, from Rob who runs Trust Up, which mm-hmm. You got kicked off. He's like, Hey, are you in town? I'm like, yeah, I'm in town. I was thinking of heading back. He's like, oh, well we should hang out.

Ended up staying with him and his wife and his daughter. Mm-hmm. Um, over, I think a couple of nights and sitting around a fire, uh, that evening with a bunch of people who I now consider friends and so on, and, and that just, Happened over and over and over again over the course of the weekend, really being, being here.

And I find that that often happens as I'm kind of walking around the neighborhood. Mm-hmm. Uh, because there's, again, there's um, it's a big enough place where. It doesn't feel too small, it doesn't feel too isolated or anything else like that. It has all the things that I need. Like I very seldom feel, uh, granted I just got here mm-hmm.

Uh, some months ago, but I haven't had this feeling like, oh, I gotta go really far in order to, to find something interesting. Right. Um, but it, it's small enough where you bump into the same people over and over again. Like you see that person at the cafe. You know that that's also working there one or two days a week.

Like you, you bump into them every so often and eventually you end up sitting around the big table. Um, and you know, you have a conversation.

[00:38:49] Joe Concra: Yeah. The blessing and a curse of a mid-size to small town that Yeah. You know, you get to know everybody and at the same time it's like, oh, do I really wanna know anybody?

Everybody. But yeah, you're right. But the other interesting thing, and I mean you're somebody who's moved here recently is I'm always curious how you, how does one I. Wherever you're listening to this, wherever someone is, when someone new comes to town, there used to be a thing called the welcome wagon, right?

Like there would be, people would come over with a, a hot dish, right? Welcome to the neighborhood, here's some macaroni and cheese. Like how do you bring people in? And also economically, what's happened here, and I think what's happened if you draw a two to three hour circle around any major metropolitan area during the pandemic is.

The value of prices has gone up so high that a lot of our RS musicians have had place housing

[00:39:40] Randall Jacobs (host): in particular.

[00:39:40] Joe Concra: Yeah. A lot of our folks have had, have had to leave. Yep. Right. So how do you get the new crop, which everybody's always looking for, greener pastures, wants to move somewhere, right? So how do you engage new people to get involved and feel like they're part of the community?

I think that's, that's a difficult nut to crack sometimes.

[00:40:00] Randall Jacobs (host): I mean, I, I would flip the question. In a way that I think would have similar answers, but is more immediately actionable and say, what can you do where you are to kind of kick off or catalyze those types of dynamics. Mm-hmm. So, you know, examples of like, you know, I have a neighbor who, uh, sometimes I'll come home and they'll be a pastry in a, in a Pyrex container on my deck.

Mm. Right. Little acts of kindness go a long way. Um, or I. Uh, you with, I mean, trust, trust up was very much like looking to create, uh, a platform for kind of facilitating those types of dynamics. Mm-hmm. Where it's like, okay, you, here's a place where if you have some, some need or you have something you can contribute, you can come here.

And this, it's almost like a clearing house for, for, you know, those needs and resources, whether it be like you, you know, you need a tool, you need a hand with things. Something. Mm-hmm. Or you have some expertise and, uh, you can provide to someone else. And then the process of doing so again, unlike a, an anonymous remote transaction over the interwebs mm-hmm.

Where something just arrives at your door, you're having an, you're having a very intimate interaction with somebody that you're going to see again in your community. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, it really shifted, uh, like shifting the perspective from, uh, one of. I need to get as much utility defined very narrowly from every dollar I spend to, I have a certain set of needs and there's more than one way to get them met.

And in fact, when I think about fun, fundamental needs, um, most of the things that we think of as needs in in modern culture, even if you don't have a huge amount of resources, are wants. Right. Right. What do you really need? You need to be fed, you need to be Mormon. You know, you need shelter and water security.

Right. And then, you know, to, to live a live rich life, like, you know, you need a, a sense of belonging. Mm-hmm. Uh, you need, uh, some, some feeling of purpose, of, of meaning. Right. We are meaning creating machines like it, it's if, if humans do anything that seems really, um, that, that might be unique though. Uh, who knows what we'll discover as we are more and more able to interface with other non-human beings.

Mm. Um, but we generate meaning, you know, we're, we're using words that it's like language is meaning built on. Meaning on meaning. It's abstraction. On abstraction. On abstraction. Mm. But its core, like, uh, uh, if you, like, if you feel insecure, Like somatically insecure, and then you have all these narratives around it.

Only if I only had more money, only if I had this, this, this thing, right? That would be give me a feeling of, of, of esteem, right? I have the nice car, I have the clothes, I have the fancy bike, right? Mm-hmm. And the blingy, the blingy thing. Um, then I would feel, I would feel enough and I would feel secure and so on.

And that whole mindset is something that is uh, uh, it's running up the down escalator.

[00:43:15] Joe Concra: Oh, I like that. Yeah. Running up the down escalator sounds about right, but I didn't realize we were gonna get, I thought we were gonna just tell jokes for a while. This is getting really, this is getting, so I'm, I'm in a really philosophical mood these days.

Here I am making fun of people who wear spandex like me, and I'm trying to, and we're getting so heavy. But you're right. I mean, it's, are you a mammal, mammal,

[00:43:37] Randall Jacobs (host): middle age, something in Lycra. Middle aged man in Lycra. Oh my

[00:43:42] Joe Concra: God, I've never heard about that. I hope not. No, I don't think so. I'm past middle age at this point, aren't I?

I don't even know anymore.

[00:43:48] Randall Jacobs (host): Well, I guess actuarily. I'm middle aged. Yeah. So to the extent that I'm still rocking Lycra on occasion, I guess I'm

[00:43:53] Joe Concra: mammal. I, yeah, I think you're mammal. I think they're just looking at me in, be like, you're on the, I'm on the down. I'm on the, I'm on the downhill at this point.

There's no more climbing. I'm on the downhill. That's, that's it. But the climbing is my favorite thing to do on a bike, I have to say. Yeah. That's one thing I miss about road bikes versus, versus gravel bikes. Mm. I do love climbing on road bikes. Yeah. I love the dancing on the pedals. I love going up mountains.

I think it's, and around here it's great. Like, it's still my favorite thing. It's one thing I have not been able to do on a gravel bike is truly learn how to climb on gravel because it's so different than climbing on the road. And I find it, um, it's just less exhilarating. It's more of a slog. To sit in the saddle, figure out when to stand, when you're not gonna, how to distribute your weight, all that stuff.

See, now I'm getting a little cycling geeky. Yeah, keep going. But it's true. I really do. I really do have, I mean, I just, I love climbing and I am, when I'm on the gravel, first of all, most carriage roads and gravel roads around here at least are old rail beds. So the grades aren't super steep. So you find places to go climb.

So I find that, and this is one reason I decided to get a thesis, is. With the slicks on, I could just jump off the trail and just go climb a road. Because as you know, there's so many climbs around here. Yeah. So that's really great. But, but I'm not super good at, I'm not good at climbing on dirt. I'm really not.

[00:45:21] Randall Jacobs (host): It's a different thing. There's a certain, um, you're far fewer variables on the road, and so you can, I, I find that. Uh, well, not I find recently, but I have found in the past that there's a certain flow state they can get into on a long, sustained road climb. Yes. Where, you know, you're, you're escalating the intensity and your heart rate and your cadence and all your breathing and all these things are kind of at their limits.

And then once they fall into sync, all of that perception of suffering just kind of fades away and you're still going like, Really hard, but it's, it's, um, the all there is is that, that, that sinking mm-hmm. Of all the things, like, it's very, very, like in one's body, in, in that particular time and place.

Mm-hmm. That, that, that string, that world line of events, it's like very much in that. Uh, I love, I love that feeling.

[00:46:23] Joe Concra: I've never heard, I've never heard anybody talk about the thinking of it before. That's exactly it. That rhythm, that moment. Oh my gosh, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful. You can't even des you just described it, but like, I want to get, I just wanna put on my freaking spandex and go out.

Now I

[00:46:39] Randall Jacobs (host): described it, uh, it was in Daoism, like the, the, the words used to describe the thing are not the thing itself. Yeah. Any, any Chinese nerds out there. But, but yeah, it's, that was the thing for me with cycling, it's like, oh, everything, everything can go away. Mm-hmm. Everything can fade and it's a whole different context, a whole different head

[00:47:04] Joe Concra: space.

Yeah. I call my thesis, my mental health machine. I'm sure other people call their bike that too. I think. I think it's just that thing that gets you. To what you just said, that flow state, that place, the other place. I feel that on a personal level is my studio. Yeah. There's only, there's only one place other, and my studio will always win even over the bike.

But, but it, but when you're just, when you get to that place where the thinking stops and the being is and it's just, it's, it's tremendous.

[00:47:29] Randall Jacobs (host): You know where I get that these days? Clearing brush, I

[00:47:33] Joe Concra: had that. I knew you were gonna say something about the cabin. Have we named this cabin yet? What is the name of this cabin?

Well someone tried to

[00:47:38] Randall Jacobs (host): call it Disaster Cabin. Yes.

[00:47:39] Joe Concra: I love that.

[00:47:40] Randall Jacobs (host): Um, But, you know, and, and I'll accept it, right. Because, you know, it was in rough shape and there's the Disaster Mansion and Disaster Cottage from, you know, two, two mutual friends. Yeah. In town, other, other falling down houses that hadn't been inhabited in a long time, that are being resuscitated.

Yeah. Um, but it doesn't feel like a disaster for me when I saw that house in the condition it was in, um, my feeling wasn't, oh, this is, this is. Gonna be a lot of work. Oh, this is, you know, how, how is it in this state? Or whatever The feeling was, this is my house. Yeah, that's great. I'm going to make this wonderful.

And in fact, having that, that thing to push against, kind of like pushing oneself up a mountain, um mm-hmm. But not being, you know, there, there are times, you know, again, just as with on a bike, it's like, oh, the top of the mountain is like so far away and my legs are burning, and like, I, I don't want to, why am I even doing this?

Mm-hmm. Why am I choosing this? Why am I such an idiot that I like, take on these hard things? Um, you know, that that's, you know, there are definitely those moments in, I think in any relationship. Mm-hmm. You know, any, any relationship to a thing or a person or something like that. If it's a meaningful relationship, it's, there's going to be some, some great difficulty.

Mm-hmm. Uh, but, but the reward is that state of like, you know, I'm doing a thing and yes, it will have a result. And that result will be satisfying. But actually I just love doing this thing too. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The reward is the process and not the outcome. Yeah, I

[00:49:16] Joe Concra: was just gonna say that it's all about

[00:49:17] Randall Jacobs (host): process.

I think that, that, if I were to think about like a, a healthy relationship to the bike and, and, you know, would extend to any anything, is, uh, you know, it's used as a vehicle for that type of connection.

[00:49:34] Joe Concra: Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah. I thank you again for making such a nice gravel bike. Uh, it's really fun. It's just really

[00:49:43] Randall Jacobs (host): fun.

There are, there are lots of very enjoyable bikes. I think the stories that you have around it probably matter as much. It's

[00:49:49] Joe Concra: crazy how, I mean, I remember we first talked way back when, when you were, when you had been at specialized and you had started a thesis. It felt like a different world. Like there weren't as many companies making gravel bikes.

Mm-hmm. And now it's just like it was the early days. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Everybody has a gravel bike. I ride in order I, one of my road bike that I've written tens of thousands of miles on is a 2007 frame where Baya Orca just, I had bought the frame and I built it up with Campy and built all these, it's a Franken bike.

Right. I've spent more time on that bike than I have with anything in my life other than my cats. And, uh, And they now make a gravel bike or bay. Oh yeah. Every, and I'm like, what, what? How, how did they end up here? I, I

[00:50:32] Randall Jacobs (host): used to define it as the, the multipurpose road bikes that the industry should have been providing to regular riders all along.

Yeah. Like most riders don't need, you know, several different bikes for all the different purposes. Like a single bike, maybe with two wheel sets. Maybe with some features to, um, you know, make it adaptable to different types of riding, like a dropper and so on. I mean, that, that, that was the thesis. Yeah. I mean, not the only part of the thesis, but that was one of the core product thesis.

Right. And why we, we called it as such. And, uh, I still feel that way. Yeah. Like I, I still have a single bike with two wheel sets, so I still drink my own Kool-Aid, I guess, in that regard. That's great. Um, how'd you get into riding?

[00:51:16] Joe Concra: Oh, well, I was a disenfranchised youth. Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan made me ride a bike.

Um, I think growing up, you know, we all have our own stories, right? And I, I'm not a big fan of people. It's a big push these days, it seems. Everybody has to tell their story, right? It's just like kind of whatever. Everybody has the same damn stories. At the end of the day, we're all just trying to survive.

So, But I found the bike because I was a disenfranchised youth. That's the, that's the broad stroke of it all. And I was just like, I need to get outta here. I just need to get outta here. And I remember my first bike in a paper route, I think in Philadelphia where I had a paper route when I was a really young kid.

And just riding around the streets early in the morning, tossing paper newspapers. Remember newspapers? No, no. Nobody remembers newspapers. I do. All right. I delivered papers too. Excellent, excellent. I'm Ask Walham, Walham News Tribune, Massachusetts, right? I think I was the first. My sisters did as well. What the, what is

[00:52:14] Randall Jacobs (host): sometimes when I wasn't doing the route that I was supposed to, what was it called?

The Wal News Tribune. Oh,

[00:52:19] Joe Concra: I love that. I just heard that a nonprofit bought 11 out of the 12 independent newspapers in Maine yesterday to keep them alive. That's pretty

[00:52:28] Randall Jacobs (host): cool. That's much better than Sinclair or some other conglomerate

[00:52:31] Joe Concra: right. So there's now 11 of the 12 newspapers in Maine will survive as a not for pro anyway.

I, I digress. Throwing newspapers and then, um, uh, you know, remember the, the mo there was a movie Breaking Away. Yeah. Right. And as an Italian American that kid's singing in Italian in the beginning of the movie. And then being a cutter and like being an outcast and not in the, the college, I was always an outcast.

I was totally never comfortable wherever I was, I became a painter, like nobody, whatever. So I discovered bikes really early on, and it just got me out of whatever bad situation I was in. Hmm. And that to me, that was always the escape machine. So even now when I leave my front door, I can go do a 30 mile gravel ride now and never have to hit a road.

And I always feel so much better when I come back, cuz now it's all in my head.

[00:53:22] Randall Jacobs (host): Unfortunately at this point, the software we were using, having to cut out. So while the conversation continued for quite some time, we don't have the rest to share with you. However, if you'd like to join us at the O positive festival, whether for the rides or the festival itself, you can visit opositivefestival.org or reach out to Joe or myself in the ridership. So with that, I hope you've enjoyed the episode

and as another dear friend of mine likes to say.

Here's to finding some dirt. Under your wheels.

In this episode, we host a dialogue with Brian Co from Veloworthy. Brian shares his journey as a cyclist, becoming a podcaster and ultimately founding Veloworthy to explore video storytelling. The talk shifts towards Brian's recent dive into gravel riding during the pandemic - a pursuit aligning smoothly with his interest in digital media and videography. Despite the challenges of filming races and representing cycling's diverse stories, Brian consistently seeks truth in his work. Brian continues to explore the world of gravel through his lenses on this YouTube Channel, Veloworthy.

Episode Sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use code THEGRAVELRIDE for free HRM)

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton (Host): Brian, welcome to the show.

[00:00:03]Brian Co: Thanks. It's so good to be here. I am so excited to be on your podcast. Uh, you know, we, we've been both been doing this for a while, but you've obviously surpassed many of the hobbyists, uh, in the, in the cycling podcast scene, so you're definitely authority when it comes to podcasts, cycling, podcasts.

[00:00:24]Craig Dalton (Host): I appreciate it. And, um, you know, as we were reminiscing offline a little bit, your original podcast, the SoCal Cyclist, was one of those that was in my steady rotation as I started getting into listening to podcasts and thinking about doing one myself.

[00:00:41]Brian Co: Well, thanks. I'm, uh, do I get a royalty from each episode?

[00:00:47]Craig Dalton (Host): Well, you know how cycling media works so you can get a royalty, but it's not gonna do much for you.

[00:00:52]Brian Co: It, it'll be, it'll, it'll be, uh, fractions of as cent, I'm sure.

[00:00:57]Craig Dalton (Host): Exactly. Hey Brian, as you know, we all start the show. I love to learn like where'd you grow up and how did you find cycling originally?

[00:01:05]Brian Co: You know, ironically, you know, I'm kind of, before velo worthy was known as SoCal Cyclist or SoCal Cyclist podcast, and I've ridden all over Southern California, LA Verdugo Hills, San Diego mostly. I'm based out of North County. Uh, but I actually grew up in Northern California. Um, where I think I'll, I'm a little bit biased.

I think Northern California when I was growing up had a. And more robust cycling scene than Southern California, which was mostly crit heavy. Uh, so I grew up in the flat heat of Sacramento and um, you know, I think when I was, I. Probably two years old. My dad took me, my brother and all my cousins to this grassy park area called Ansel Hoffman Park and just said, I'm gonna teach you all how to ride a bike in one day.

And we just, you know, the age gap between me and my cousins is about five years, and I was the youngest and we all learned the exact same day how to ride bikes. And then so like, Seven, six years later, uh, I entered my first bike race. Um, I was eight years old and it was a B M X race and I just loved it.

You know, B M X was very, very big in the eighties and, uh, you know, the movie ET had just come out and there's a scene where they had take ET on the bike and they're like going down the hills and stuff, and I wanted to be Elliot from et I even remember wearing a red hoodie with the hood on. Just so I could pretend to be Elliot from et.

And then when I was nine years old, I got introduced to, uh, road cycling, uh, by my cousins. And they all took this trip on the bike from LA to San Diego. I was too young to go, so I was there, but my brother and my cousins, three of 'em all went and they were, you know, 12. 13 years old. Uh, and, and they all did it.

And then since after that I was like, I gotta get into bikes. Luckily there was this, this race, it was the biggest race in America at the time, equivalent to like the tour of California was. It was called the Chorus Classic. And it went through my town and it was the first time I actually. Got to meet Greg Lamond in person.

And you know, I'm a little kid trying to get an autograph and I'm like tugging at his la claire jersey and he turns around and just gives me a smile because he was being surrounded by people. He had just won the tour of France, uh, for the first time. And, uh, since that point, cycling has, has been the only sport I've ever really known other than like high school, cross country and track.

[00:03:59]Craig Dalton (Host): Okay. Interesting. So while you were in high school, I know, I know a lot of kids sort of end up leaving the sport in high school because of social pressures or other sports. Sounds like you kind of maintained and were still riding at that point.

[00:04:14]Brian Co: Well, I think it was, it comes down to luck because I was just born at the right time. Like when I was a junior. I remember races being so full that they'd have to have heats and. It was actually cool to be a young junior cyclist. This is, I'm a few years younger than the Lance Armstrong sort of generation of guys like him and Hin, capi and a few others.

Um, but when we were little, we all idolized being on like the seven 11 team or the postal service team, and it was actually cool. Today you see more of like. The older, older helmet, mirror bandana wearing crew that maybe thrive peaked in those days. But I think we're seeing a resurgence with, with gravel and, and a few other disciplines

[00:05:05]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, certainly with youth, I mean, as you know, in Northern California we have big Nika League, so youth mountain biking at the high school level is insane up here. I I, the Mount Tam School high school team here in my town of Mill Valley, there's 60 kids on that team, which is an unbelievable number. And some of these kids are elite level athletes by the time they're leaving their senior year.

[00:05:31]Brian Co: Yeah, it's uh, Nike's becoming the new collegiate cycling. 'cause all we had back in the day was, if you're good enough in high school, you went to a college that had a cycling team. And then I. If you were good enough to race the A category, which was like equivalent to CAT one, two, uh, you might be able to get a pro contract if you did well at a national championship.

But Naica now has totally replaced that and the kids are younger, they're more talented, and even though bikes are getting more expensive and equipment is more expensive, they're able to find ways to to do that. I remember my first. Bike race as a junior. I think I was 14 or 15. I did the Mount Tam Hill climb and I was on junior Gears and one of the kids that won, he was on like the, I remember he was on the full team, Richie, uh, red, white and blue kit, and he had a mountain bike that was rigged up to be like, had skinny tires and he blew the doors off of everyone, but.

Um, I just remember thinking, I can't compete with this level of talent for all the Bay Area kids. They're just head and shoulder 'cause they can all climb me. In Sacramento, I was okay on the flats and in crits, but you go to the Bay Area and they can just, they're little miniature, you know, Alberto Contours just climbing up the mountains.

It was totally

[00:06:55]Craig Dalton (Host): you end up, did you end up going to a university that had a cycling program?

[00:06:59]Brian Co: Yeah. So, uh, when I was in high school, you know, I, I looked at different colleges. I ended up going to Northern Arizona University and Flagstaff that had I. Uh, a really big cycling team. In fact, um, the first Collegiate National Mountain Bike Championship I did, and, uh, the team got third in the Omnia behind, I think it was like CU Boulder and Stanford.

And n a u is not known for a whole lot, but Flagstaff itself is a city, is, is a great place for mountain biking and just, it's at, it's at 7,000 feet altitude. And so you're, you're living at 7,000 feet, you're training at eight to 9,000 feet, and then you just, you have so much, uh, ability to do a lot. And so I actually abandoned road racing and went through like three years of a mountain bike phase.

[00:07:54]Craig Dalton (Host): I was just gonna ask you that.

[00:07:56]Brian Co: Yeah, rode a Bri Bridgestone, uh, fully rigid, uh, mountain bike, 26 inch wheels. And then my suspension, it was called a soft ride suspension stem.

[00:08:07]Craig Dalton (Host): Uh, Brian, don't even talk to me about that. That's painful.

[00:08:11]Brian Co: Yeah,

[00:08:11]Craig Dalton (Host): had one of those.

[00:08:12]Brian Co: jackhammer down these, down, these like breaking bumps. And I'm like, and uh, I, but at the time, like it was that, or like I think Rock Shocks had just come out with like the Judy or something.

And so, uh, I did three national championships. Um, the hardest one I ever did was in Kentucky. Uh, a young up and comer from Fort Lewis. His name was Todd Wells, uh, lapped me on the last lap, and I'm like, who is this weirdo? And, uh, he ended up being one of the most dominant mountain bikers in America after that.

So I, I hung up my mountain bike cleats after that point.

[00:08:52]Craig Dalton (Host): So let's fast forward a number of years you find yourself in Southern California. It sounds like you were still racing criteriums. Recognizing you're not going pro, but still like many of us just loving the sport and continuing to do it. Tell me about like the transition from that to starting to talk about it on the podcast.

[00:09:12]Brian Co: Oh, well, I think anyone who grows up with cycling needs, especially from a young age, needs to take a break. So I, I moved to Southern California just because I could, I could ride my bike year round, but then I ended up falling in love with the ocean and I, and I sold all my bike stuff and I ended up taking up surfing for like the next eight years straight.

All I did was surf. And I even remember taking like my friends who were like pro cyclists out surfing and then they get hooked. Like my friend, uh, Alex Rio who was on Optum and Rally moved here and I was like his motor pacing guy, but I'm like, Hey, there's a ocean ride here like a hundred feet that way.

Let's go get surfboards. And then he ended up loving it so much he moved to Hawaii, ended up starting big island bike tours there. Um, so I, I, I took a break from the sport. I, you know, got a little burned out. I was a little, uh, you know, it was during the whole doping e p o, you know, post live strong kind of mess.

And I still followed the tour and stuff on tv, but I, I just wasn't racing anymore. And then one day, like. You know, in 2012 I just got, I, I used my beach cruiser 'cause everyone in Southern California has beach cruisers and I just started doing five miles, 10 miles, 20 miles up to 30 miles on a beach cruiser that weighs about 55 pounds with a basket and a lock.

And then, uh, I told myself one day, okay, cool, I'm on a beach cruiser. I'm riding in board shorts and a t-shirt and a helmet, and there's this climb in Southern California called Tory Pines. And I, I said to myself, okay, if I can pass a guy in a real bike kit and a real road bike, I'm gonna buy myself a road bike.

And I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna do it. So I, I finally, Saw somebody in a d in like a team kit. I think it was the Swamis team, which is a big team in Southern California. Cotton passed him. I was so gassed up at the top. I remember he said something to me. I think it was a compliment. My bike, it wasn't a single speed, it was a three speed internal hub.

And then next day I got a road bike and started racing. And then the first crit I entered, I think it was like masters. I got. I got 13th place and then I was like 13th place with no training, but still the skills. And then I started doing more and more and more and catted up and then started doing the the 35 plus masters, which is I.

Uh, probably as fast as the pro one, two, uh, guys, I mean, a lot of 'em are ex pros themselves and just started doing that and then was having so much fun. Decided to create a podcast, talking to all my friends about, um, bike racing and stuff like that.

[00:12:15]Craig Dalton (Host): Nice, nice. Yeah. To your point, like in California, the master's class, like there's so many great riders and ex pros scattered across California, you hop into a Master's category. You may very well be racing against an X Pro.

[00:12:31]Brian Co: Oh yeah, like I remember I was fighting somebody's wheel just so I could draft behind his name's. Ivan Dominguez, he is the Cuban missile. Just 'cause I wanted to look at his calves. I. That's all I wanted to do. And be like, oh, what gear is he using? And he's like this slow churn, you know, opposite of like spin to win, just mashing the gear.

And I was just staring at his calves going, this is so cool. Ivan Dominguez, you know, former multi-time, you know, crit and Road Race champion, uh, and I'm in the same race as him and stuff like that is just, is super cool.

[00:13:05]Craig Dalton (Host): Amazing. So you, you're, you start the SoCal cyclist to talk to your friends and just kind of explore another creative outlet as you've got a young child in at the home. Right.

[00:13:15]Brian Co: Yeah. Well, at the time, and again, this is in 2016, there wasn't a whole lot of cycling podcasts, and the ones that did exist were very, um, tech heavy. Like they focused on disc breaks and stuff like that, which is great. But I wanted to focus on me and one guest every week for 52 weeks and to see if I could actually do it.

But, and, and again, this is. Uh, people physically coming over to my house and recording. So it's the most inefficient way possible. And so, uh, I, I, I met that goal. I, I don't know why I even did it, but I, uh, you know, it started out as, as my friends in the first few episodes, and then by the last it was, you know, a lot of the top people in the sport.

So I think it gained a lot of momentum after that.

[00:14:07]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, and I can't recall how I originally found and discovered your podcast, but even before you rebranded to Velo Worthy, I was a listener, as you know, and when we connected at that first. Sea Otter, I think we were saying it might've been 2018. I was sort of fanboying you 'cause I knew you had done a lot of episodes.

You're putting good content out there. Um, and it was fun to just connect with another podcaster to just trade insights. 'cause as you allo alluded to, the technology we're using back then was pretty rudimentary and difficult compared to what we're able to use today.

[00:14:46]Brian Co: Yeah, you're right. Like. Whenever we record or put something out there, not just in podcasting, but in videos or anything, all you're staring at are numbers. So when you see somebody in person, you're like, oh, wow, somebody actually, this isn't all just a facade, like somebody actually is listening and we're talking about in person.

So I think that's so cool. I mean, to this day, you know, most recently I was at Unbound, um, and I, I was so. Flattered and kind of validated that people would be like, oh, I watch your race coverage or your YouTube channel, and it just kind of blows me away. And I'm like, oh, really? You watch it? That's cool.

And then they talk about it and stuff. So, uh, it still blows my mind. And I, I love that kind of thing. It's cool.

[00:15:35]Craig Dalton (Host): so it is interesting in talking and getting a little bit more of your backstory to learn that. You know you had that mountain bike period in your life when you were back in Flagstaff. Then you come back to the road doing your thing, start podcasting Covid hits. I know you decided to kind of put the brakes on the podcast for a little while.

I'm curious, in that sort of interim period from 2020 to now, it sounds like you've really kind of discovered gravel as being something that both suits you. Professionally with what you're doing with Worthy, but also just liking the, the vibe of the community and the style of riding.

[00:16:15]Brian Co: Yeah, I mean 2020, you know, if, if everything shut down and there's no more races or even, like, I remember the group rides were a fraction of the size they were. Uh, why not do gravel where it's out in the open, it's. Mostly unsanctioned unless you sign up for something. And uh, I think the timing of everything just kind of worked.

Um, gravel and I think gravel events kind of really took off between 2020 and now. And I think it appeals to so many people, including myself, because the rules are kind of unwritten. I mean, if I tried to do this, With a road background or a road focus, it would be 10 times more red tape to go to an event, especially like a U C I World Tour event because I, I have gone to like, uh, the tour of France and, um, Amgen Tour of California and just to go through those channels.

It's very tradition based. Um, I, I interviewed one writer stuck a microphone in his face. Nathan Haas, he's, he's in gravel now actually, but at the time he, I think he was on like Catusa and he had just finished the stage and I just asked him a question and he reaches toward my lanyard with my media credential and he looks at it and goes, who am I talking to?

And, uh, didn't even occur to me to like, Show him my badge. But if I did that at a gravel race, they'd be like, who are you trying to fool? Just talk to me like it. There doesn't need to be this vetting process. Um, so I think gravel gives that kind of freedom.

[00:18:01]Craig Dalton (Host): So we don't, so the listener doesn't lear lose the thread here. Let's talk about velo worthy and what you're working on today because it's not a podcast anymore.

[00:18:11]Brian Co: No, I, God, I, I need to get back into podcasting 'cause I miss it so much and I'm so excited just being on a podcast like, energizes me so much. But, so velo worthy is primarily, uh, a digital media brand where, uh, For lack of a better term, I make videos and put 'em up on YouTube. Um, but the, the thing about it is I've found this weird niche, uh, with my brand that not many other brands are doing.

Um, you're either, most people, you know, if you're like, I. Tyler Pierce, a k a vegan cyclist, you're a vlogger or you, you focus on yourself and your accomplishments. Other writers do that as well. Um, Adam Roberts has his own channel, for example, Alexi has his own channel, for example. So if you're not that, you're either a, a.

Working for a media brand. So if you work for Envy or something, you're just doing envy content at these events. But right now there's really nothing that captures the holistic view of an event where you're ca, you're not beholden to one writer necessarily or one brand. You're just trying to cover everything, which is a lot of work.

But I think there's something to be said to. Sort of capture an unbiased view of what goes on at cycling events and just seeing things, how they unfold.

[00:19:36]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, I think that's the thing that I take away from your videos is that you really do get the sense and feeling of the event. It's not a, an overly packaged, overly produced look at the entirety of the event. You really do. Because you're on the ground, because you're moving through the course, you're capturing footage that's just feels real, like you're seeing the mud on the tires.

And when it comes to unbound, you're seeing the jockeying for water. At some of the stations, you're seeing how the riders are handling their pits. And I just feel like as a viewer, you do get a really strong sense of what it's like to be there versus this overly glamorized kind of prepackaged view of what the race weekend experience looked like.

[00:20:27]Brian Co: Well, first of all, I'm just not good enough to make something highly produced because that takes a lot of talent, you know, to get that nice, you know, transition effect or whatever. But all kidding aside though, I really like, um, being in the moment, you're kind of up close and personal and, and the thing about gravel racing, the biggest flaw is it's not good for spectating.

You start and then you finish either in the same place as the start or a different area. I mean, at least in road racing, it's criteriums and you can just watch lap after lap, have it unfold. But with gravel it's so hard to watch. Um, and so I know that if I film for 10 hours straight, that's kind of boring.

Uh, no one's gonna watch that. But if I condense it into. Less than an hour or 45 minutes, or even a half an hour. Um, it can really capture the things that are unfolding. And unbeknownst to me, I didn't know that my footage was gonna be, you know, used for feed zone drama or finish line drama or any kind of drama really, but, The writers are not shy out on course.

They'll ask me, what's the time gap? They'll ask me how many guys are ahead, who's in that break? They're asking, they're not asking for directions or anything. And I do follow all the rules of um, I. The race. So if a writer needs assistance and we're not allowed to give it, I don't give it, I just record. Um, so I think the relationship that I versus, uh, you know, a, a local news channel has, uh, at least knowing and following the sport and knowing the writers.

And how it's unfolding and posting up at the feed zones, capturing what may or may not happen, uh, whether people wait up or they just hit the gun and go for it. Uh, makes for good, good video.

[00:22:21]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, and I think as a fan of the sport, your types of content just help fill the gaps like we might see. Throughout the day, the social media coverage, but the clips are quite quick and much to people's chagrin because it's so hard to get coverage out there, you're just not seeing it in the way you want.

So you don't necessarily understand what happened in the race until after the fact. And I was enjoying this morning watching your Unbound video 'cause it just sort of, Added levels of detail and little bit longer clips of content to really get a feel. You know, I obviously many of us have read about the mud conditions in this year's unbound, and it wasn't until I saw some of your, your video that I could sort of understand.

Oh yeah. It's that peanut buttery type mud where it looks glossy until you put your tire into it and then it just sinks down a couple inches and it sticks to absolutely everything.

[00:23:18]Brian Co: Yeah, this, this year's unbound wasn't necessarily the the dirtiest, but I would say that section of mud. Made the race. Uh, I, I would say it determined who won and lost in that first 11 miles. Uh, but you know, again, you can have the debate of you just gotta be hard and power through it. And if everyone's going through it, then you shouldn't complain or.

Do you reroute it last minute and make some changes? So it's actually more of a open, right, where you're, you're riding your bike, you're not running five miles since most cyclists hate running anyway. But yeah, like I, I just, I think, you know, I, I try and show and capture what people would hopefully wanna see.

So it's stuff like the mud and, and the pit stops, especially this year. Who's getting a bike wash? Who's not, uh, who's. There's a little section of Sophia that went through the pit stop and it got two and a half million views on TikTok. Just the 60 seconds of it with people going, everything from, why can't she switch bikes to, uh, why does she need to power wash her bike at all?

Like, so it's, a lot of it is curiosity. A lot of it is, okay, this is what I heard what happened. I wanna actually see it. So, um, it, it, it's hard to, to get in those areas though.

[00:24:45]Craig Dalton (Host): and you've, you know, through a lifetime of cycling and connections you have, you clearly have a good rapport with a lot of these athletes. And it was interesting as that video opened up and, and you're speaking to some of the athletes, I, I thought that was cool. And then you, you do do like morning of start line commentary, and I think there was one woman who said something like, Well, I'm glad it didn't, it's not raining right now, or it seems kind of dry and I thought that statement is not gonna live well.

[00:25:13]Brian Co: Yeah. Well, the thing is too, as much as I. You know, I think this is my fifth unbound. Kansas is like Hawaii. The weather just changes on a dime. So it could be sunny, perfectly sunny, not a cloud. And then they just roll in. Um, and a lot of people who aren't from Kansas just aren't used to that. Like even me, I should know, to bring galoshes and, uh, a poncho with me and a plastic wrap for my camera.

But I. I didn't because I'm like, oh, the weather looks fine. You know? 'cause we're in California. It rarely changes that drastically. Uh, so yeah, I think I. The relationship I have with the writers is solid. I try not to, to burn people for the sake of burning people. I, I had a good talk with some of the more well-seasoned journalists, and I said, when do you, when do you know when to publish something and when not to, like in the case of Lance Armstrong, no reporter reported anything about him until only one reporter did, and then everybody did, and they said, look, If you wanna burn somebody, you have to do it if it's for the greater good of the sport.

So if you know somebody's doing something nefarious, like cutting the course, or cheating or taking drugs or drafting off of a vehicle, you should probably document that and mention that and show that. Don't, don't not do it just because you're friends with them and they ask you not to do it.

[00:26:46]Craig Dalton (Host): Right. Yeah,

[00:26:47]Brian Co: is always hard because you're like, okay, if I do this, that means you're never gonna probably wanna interview with me again.

So that's, that's something I have to decide on the fly.

[00:26:57]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, that's the balance. You talked about sort of your efforts to make velo worthy, this video project that people can enjoy on YouTube. You also talked about how you've been excited about coming to Gravel over the last couple years. What does the summer look like for you? What are the types of things that you wanna document this year?

[00:27:16]Brian Co: Well, I, I'm learning that I'm not able to sustain what I'm doing on velo worthy unless we have an unbound every single weekend or at least a level of an event, the size of Unbound every single weekend. So I'm actually learning that, again, this is a complete shock to me that brands. Will actually reach out to me and say, okay, we want you to review this tire.

Or thinking that I'm some sort, sort of expert just 'cause I go to these events. But, uh, yeah, it's kind of cool, like I'm learning the tech side of it all and doing videos where, uh, I'm reviewing saddles or sunglasses or something. Um, where, you know, in my opinion, I review something. Say sunglasses based on how they look versus like the, the technical prowess of it.

And so that's always cool because it, it forces me to just expand what I'm doing and, and you know, you have to have this healthy balance between what you're passionate about versus what people want to see. And if they don't line up, then you have to make some decisions. But, um, You know when, when I'm gr interested in growing velo worthy, it depends on how I define growth and what I want that to be.

Because if I could, I could be another channel where I'm just doing all tech, and some people love that. But for me, I like the human story. I like the human drama of it all.

[00:28:53]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. I personally think that's more interesting as well.

[00:28:57]Brian Co: Yeah, and then maybe show like what tires they're running at the same time,

[00:29:01]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. I mean

[00:29:02]Brian Co: not mutually exclusive.

[00:29:04]Craig Dalton (Host): exactly. I mean, there's the personal element of like why I chose this tire for this particular event and why it was successful or unsuccessful as a choice. So what's, yeah, what's next? So you're out at Unbound, and I know you'd mentioned to me offline that you've got a bunch of gravel events you wanna cover this year.

[00:29:21]Brian Co: Yeah. So in between Unbound and the events I'm doing, I have it, I have this like glass wall on my wall here that I take a pen and, and write to, and I have like a whole video queue and one's on doing a tire review, uh, a review of, uh, the new, uh, specialized truck, gravel bike that I'm trying to convert into a all in one bike.

Um, and then I have, uh, Foco Fondo in Fort Collins. I'm going to a small gravel race, but probably the most fun you'll ever have on two wheels. Uh, Whitney and Zach Allison put it on and they have. Such a good pulse of what makes cycling events fun. Um, doing that, there's Leadville, uh, which is mountain biking, but not super technical 'cause a lot of the lifetime athletes do it.

And then Steamboat, s b t is the next week after that. And then there's also Montana, uh, mammoth Tough. Sporting the mammoth tough T-shirt. And then, uh, there's National Gravel, national Inaugural Championships, which we'll see how that even works. Some people may be like, Hey, this is awesome, and other people might say it's killing the spirit of gravel.

The minute U s A cycling gets involved.

[00:30:47]Craig Dalton (Host): so we'll see. So when you're out at these events, are you gonna sort of follow a similar format where you'll. Capture some athlete interviews. Capture as much of the course as you can to kind of give people the experience.

[00:30:59]Brian Co: Yeah, so I actually plan it all out ahead of time. I use, you know, I have a Google Sheet doc. I type in each day, shot lists for everything. I'm very methodical, you know, charge up all my batteries, clear my, and format all my memory cards. I have all my equipment out there. I work on logistics. I get in touch with the athletes ahead of time and we plan, okay, we're gonna meet at this time, at this location.

We're gonna sit down for five minutes and talk about this thing. And then when you get there, you know, everyone has a plan till you get punched in the face and then something could happen, it could rain. Uh, the athlete could be like, I don't feel like showing up. I've run into just every logistical thing you can.

And so when you're there, you have to adjust on the fly and be like, okay, like at Unbound. There's this whole thing I did with Rebecca Inger where I didn't know she was gonna get sixth and she's this big personality and gravel, uh, and she just saw me and she's like, Hey, come walk with me. And I followed her and we went to get a race number at registration and I just started documenting that.

And then I was like, well, why don't you just come over for dinner the night before? Bring Sarah Max, her friend. They're both like super solid in gravel. They came over for dinner and then I was like, let's just go in the living room and we'll film real quick. And they, they were sort of the intro to that video.

None of that was planned. That was all spontaneous. So yeah, like you can only plan so much until it actually happens. And then when it does, you have to adapt it kind of like racing itself, you know? So, uh, in a ways it's, I I approach those events in the same way.

[00:32:42]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, that makes sense. Sweet. Well, I'm super excited to see all those events you're gonna cover later in the year. I definitely, I wanna get more of the flavor I've had, I've had Whitney on talking about Foco Fondo. I've had Jess, Sarah and Sam Boardman on talking about Last Best Ride. I'm always curious to just kind of see on the ground footage of.

How those events will go down and what the experience looks like. Because I think at the end of the day, most athletes who aren't professional athletes, you know, we've got limited time and limited budgets to get out there and picking the events that are gonna be the right vibe I think is important. I.

[00:33:19]Brian Co: Yeah. You know, and not every event needs to be documented in the way, say, Unbound is because not every race is about even focusing on the pointy end, especially if it's a smaller event where people just kind roll out. There's no neutral, there's no gun that goes. People just roll out and then they finish.

They still ride hard. So I have to figure out a better way to tell the story. 'cause if I just focus on the leaders or one guy or girl, that's just gonna get boring and because there's so much that happens behind that. There's people on tandems and there's people on all kinds of weird gravelly, custom steel alloy, flannel, mustache, whatever.

Like it's just, there's so much going on that I, I, I need to be able to capture that as well, so,

[00:34:13]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. No, I agree. I, I mean, I think I've, I've done an equal part of like pointy end of the race racers and mid packers, and I know. It seems to be a growing trend. 'cause I think at the end of the day, part of this quote unquote spirit of gravel is we're all participating together. So I do, I tend to agree with you that the sort of flannel shirt, wearing Mustached party pace athlete experience is every bit as valid to understand as part of, you know, what the overall event jam is gonna feel like as the pointy ended.

In fact, probably even more so.

[00:34:47]Brian Co: Yeah, I mean, I. Some people finish Unbound in 10 hours and some people finish it in 20 hours. So for the people who are finishing in 20 hours, they had, they spent more time at Unbound than the pros did.

[00:34:59]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, no, I, I, I remember back from my triathlon days at Ironman and thinking like, you know, you have the pros finishing in whatever, seven or eight hours. Then the person who's finishing in 17 hours. That is such a harder day, and I think that most of the pros would acknowledge that saying like, they don't think they could even do a 17 hour day.

[00:35:21]Brian Co: Yeah, and the pros are asleep and they have their feet up and they've already had a couple of beverages consumed. I don't know. I've been last in bike races before. I've d NFD in bike races, uh, and I've been in bike races, road bike races where I've come in. I'm pretty sure dead last, where they're like taking like the finishing barriers out and I just kind of like hide. But in gravel, you see like at mid-south, they're celebrating and embracing whoever finishes his last, like at Unbound, the XL winner I think did it in, they finished on like a Sunday afternoon. They started on Friday. Uh, and they, they brought out everyone and sprayed champagne on 'em. And you just don't see that at other events.

[00:36:09]Craig Dalton (Host): I think that's the allure of the ultra endurance events that are prevalent in gravel, right? Because these are lifetime achievements to kind of do a 200 mile race or what have you. And yeah, everybody should be celebrated. Everybody should feel an immense sense of accomplishment for just having got a getting across the finish line.

[00:36:29]Brian Co: Yeah. I met, I'm met a, I'm met a volunteer. Who was doing the finish line, like wet shammy, butter washcloths, those yellow ones. And I'm like, oh, where are you from? He is like, oh, I'm from Florida. And I'm like, you came all the way from Florida to be a volunteer and you're not even writing the event. He's like, yeah, but being a volunteer gets you entry for the next year.

So you're already, you're already doing prep. Well before you're, you can even do it 'cause the lottery system is so random. But if you volunteer, you're guaranteed an entry. Or if you're a vendor, you're guaranteed an entry. And people, I forget, travel I. Just to volunteer. You would never see that. You would never see that at a crit as much as I love crit racing, or you'd never see it at a row race where someone volunteers a year early just to just to throw wet rags on somebody just so they can race it the next year.

That just speaks volumes.

[00:37:26]Craig Dalton (Host): yeah, it really does. Cool. Well, Brian, I appreciate you coming on and sharing the story. I'll make sure people know how to check out the content so they can explore. The velo worthy YouTube channel.

[00:37:38]Brian Co: Thank you. And, uh, you know, I, I, I, I think that a lot of room to grow, not in terms of traffic necessarily, but in the way I. People like you and me develop within the sport. Like we're not, we don't have the advantage of being ex-professional with a big following. So like if Peter Seg wants to start his own podcast, we're just doomed.

We just are. But I think we just grind it out. We're there, we're talking to people. We're learning and we're creating, I think a great. Space in the sport to have voices like these. So I really appreciate the opportunity to be out here and talking to you because I just love what you're doing and I, I love being able to share my passion for the sport.

[00:38:29]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Amazing. Thanks Brian.

This week on the podcast we dive into the origin story of Wilde Bicycle Co with founder, Jeffrey Frane. As a child, Jeffrey found the bike and along the way found freedom, adventure, and ultimately, a calling. Jeffrey has spend over twenty years in the bike industry finding himself at QBP managing the All City Brand since its earliest days. His experience and passion has led to the founding of Wilde Bicycle Co.

Wilde Bicycle Co. website

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton (Host): Hey Jeff, welcome to the show.

[00:00:04]Jeff Frane: Uh, hey Craig. It's great to be here.

[00:00:06]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, this is gonna be a lot of fun. I'm excited to learn more about you and more about the Wild Bicycle brand. So let's, let's start off by where, where'd you grow up and how'd you discover the bike?

[00:00:16]Jeff Frane: All right, so, uh, for the listeners joining us, uh, my name is Jeffrey Frame and I am from, I grew up in the North Woods of Wisconsin. In a small logging slash milltown called Rhinelander, Wisconsin. A shout out to the Hoda. Um, so I grew up small town Wisconsin and luckily there were a bunch of mountain bikers around and we had, you know, several mountain bike races like twice a year. And, um, all these woods to explore. And got hooked on bikes as a kid because it was the only way I could leave my neighborhood. I lived outside of town where most of my friends lived in town, so I had to get there somehow.

And my parents had jobs, so it was ride the bike and I just never stopped. You know, when I was 16, when most people, you know, kind of put down the bike. I was really afraid of killing somebody. I was, I was immature. I'm, you know, I, I, up until like my 40th birthday, I was pretty immature. Um, but I was afraid of hurting somebody with, you know, the power of an automobile scared the crap out of me.

So I just like never got my license and I just kept riding. I did eventually get my license, you know, when I was 20 years old, but, so I just never stopped.

[00:01:34]Craig Dalton (Host): and was it just sort of pleasure riding back then, or you'd mentioned there was a couple

[00:01:37]Jeff Frane: Yeah.

[00:01:38]Craig Dalton (Host): Did you get drawn into the race scene at all?

[00:01:40]Jeff Frane: did. Um, and it was, it was wonderful. My parents were always incredibly, uh, supportive of my sporting endeavors. And, um, in Wisconsin, we're really blessed to have the Wars series, uh, the Wisconsin Off-Road series, which is one of the largest and longest running, I think, state series in the country.

And, uh, they would take me to the races. I started racing in junior high, uh, in the local stuff on my Little Trek eight 30. And, uh, that was wonderful and then kind of progressed. And then in high school we started racing full war circuits and my parents were awesome enough to take the time off of work and to kinda lug me around so that I could get, you know, fifth place in a sport class or whatever.

[00:02:20]Craig Dalton (Host): I love it. And was there, was there a high school mountain bike scene back then, or was, were you a little bit of a, an outcast?

[00:02:26]Jeff Frane: yeah, I was the only, I had some friends kind of coming up or growing up who raced with me, but once we got to high school, it was largely me. You know, we didn't have Nica or anything like that. In fact, I remember I played hockey as well, that um, I got a local sponsorship from Schwinn and like it was this big kerfuffle cuz like, they didn't know if I was still eligible for hockey and all these people were really upset about it and, you know, whatever.

Um, I was, it turned out I was eligible for hockey, but,

[00:02:55]Craig Dalton (Host): Some, someone just need to explain to the hockey world that bicycle sponsorship is not exactly making a living.

[00:03:00]Jeff Frane: no, and you know, there was no money. But, uh, so, you know, I, I just, I just kept racing and mountain bikes were my first love and it was just a way of exploring, you know, the area around me. And we had a cool local shop, Mel's trading post, and they were super rad to me and put me on the little bike team.

And then we got, that team got sponsored by Schwinn and, um, you know, it all, all just kind of held together until I went to the university and. As a poor college student, I really couldn't afford to race, but I was able to still ride my bike all the time.

[00:03:32]Craig Dalton (Host): Were you still in Wisconsin at that point?

[00:03:34]Jeff Frane: Yeah. I went to the University of Wisconsin at Eau Claire,

[00:03:37]Craig Dalton (Host): Okay.

[00:03:37]Jeff Frane: um, which is like a, a rivertown and, you know, a couple trail systems, but found, started finding like the bigger community, you know, there were a bunch of really fast racers and I learned so much by chasing these people around, you know, eventually got to.

I still raced a little bit in college and was able to race expert where I got my butt absolutely handed to me. Um, and then after, after college, I spent a couple years living in my van, uh, 1992 Dodge Caravan.

[00:04:05]Craig Dalton (Host): out Dodge Caravan.

[00:04:07]Jeff Frane: I was gonna, I was like, I can't shout out too many things, but yeah, the Dodge Caravan was a, was a workhorse.

Really good car. Went through transmissions like he wouldn't believe though. Uh, so lived in that for a while. And then, um, I got tired of, of living on people's couches and just being broke and there was a, a person I wanted to date. So I came back here and now I live in Minneapolis. I've been here since 2005.

And like that's really kind of when I think things really took off for me in terms of bicycles as a lifestyle. You know, that was the height of the fixed gear. Boom. And, you know, so I, I moved to the, I moved to city, the city with like a single speed Magna Mountain bike that I had cut the bars down. I had like my little Dickies Messenger bag and I was like, oh, you know, like in the big, I'm gonna cut traffic.

And cuz I had grown up like seeing bike messengers and like MTV sports and stuff

[00:04:57]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah.

[00:04:58]Jeff Frane: and uh, you know, got a job at a bike shop, started wrenching. And, um, started my little company Bike Jerks. So if you find me on Instagram, my handle is bike jerks, uh, which was a dumb inside joke at the shop. And it seemed like a real funny thing to call my, my little company, uh, when I was 25.

Now I'm 43. Not as funny, but I'm stuck with it. Um, and the reason that started is like I needed a, I always needed a creative outlet and I really wanted to participate in the community. I wanted to organize, I wanted to throw races. So I needed a platform to do that. So I invented this thing, bike Jerks, which was the little, um, you know, platform for me to throw Alley Cats and Bandit Cross and, and other events.

[00:05:41]Craig Dalton (Host): gotcha. Yeah, it seems like that Minneapolis bike scene is, has always been so creative and spanned so many different disciplines of the B of the sport, including disciplines that no one knows even exists, like tall bikes and random cobbled together bikes.

[00:05:58]Jeff Frane: Yeah, it's, it's weird being here cuz we're a straight flyover country. You know, anything that gets media attention or national renowned is pretty much coastal. Um, so we, it's awesome to hear people say that. And, you know, people know that we're a bike city, but like, nobody comes visits Minneapolis, you know, um, we're kind of forgotten about.

But we have this really, really special and unique culture. And, you know, there was Gene Ober, pillar and Hur ever stone. And Paul Ziegel and you know, the surly bikes and there's all these pretty amazing contributions that have been made. You know, single speed mountain biking. It wasn't invented here by any means, but I think it took on like its bigger cultural relevance.

There was a huge push for that here, especially with, you know, surly bikes coming on outta the scene. Um, so we're standing on the shoulders of giants. There is an amazing, amazing culture that goes back generations, uh, here in the Twin Cities.

[00:06:53]Craig Dalton (Host): And then I'm not sure exactly when quality bike parts came to be, but qbp is this cornerstone sort of backbone of the bicycle industry. Maybe you can describe who they are and what they do.

[00:07:05]Jeff Frane: Yeah, so q uh, so the first shop I worked at here in Minneapolis was FreeWheel Bike. It was originally a co-op. By the time I got there, it was no longer a co-op. Uh, but, uh, what Steve Flagg, the owner of qbp, was one of the owners of the co-op, and they were, Essentially frustrated not being able to get small repair parts from Europe.

And so he started bringing in repair parts and boom, that's how Quality Bicycles products got started. Him and his wife Mary, and you know, now it's the largest bicycle distributor distribution business in North America. They own Surly, they own Salsa, they own All City. They own whiskey. They own 45 North.

Um, you know, it's a, it's a massive, massive operation.

[00:07:48]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. Super interesting. I never, I never knew that backstory, but I've, I've certainly known Q BP my entire cycling life, it seems like. And you've ultimately, you've found your way

[00:07:58]Jeff Frane: to Q. Yeah. So you know, there Qbp was always like the, you know, like the beacon on the hill kind of thing. It was like all the shop rats were like trying to get to Q and uh, I was lucky enough to get hired there, so I worked like part-time seasonal at FreeWheel bike my first year in Minneapolis. Got laid off for the winter, uh, took a bunch of weird random jobs and eventually, um, QVP was hiring for warehouse people.

And so I started there. I think in, it would've been 2006, uh, as part-time seasonal picking, packing, labeling, like literally the bottom rung on the totem pole. You know, it doesn't get much lower. Um, you know, in terms of. I mean, it's a fine job. I don't mean to say that the job was low, but you know, as far as the ranking goes, you're a part-time seasonal employee.

[00:08:52]Craig Dalton (Host): it's the entry point. The very

[00:08:53]Jeff Frane: Yeah, it's the entry entry point for sure. Um, so I got a job there and you know, by that time I was already kind of getting a reputation as like the fixed gear guy and I was already active in the community here in Minneapolis, organizing events. And they recognized that love and that passion that I had.

And so, um, a few years in, I was able to start suggesting some product to Lisa Snyder, um, who was the brand manager of Dimension at the time. So there was the Dimension brand and they had like some track things and you know, kind of the whole thing was I was like, Yo, I'm really into track bikes and you have nothing I wanna buy.

Like I'm buying all my stuff from Mary Sales and from these other distributors, Euro, Asia, imports, et cetera. Like, what's going on? Like, you're freaking qbp. Like, y'all need to do better. And so I started suggesting some product to her and she brought them in under the dimension label, and they did well.

And then I was able to suggest more products. And then those did well. And eventually, um, I kind of got the, I was talking to Lisa about doing some other stuff. It just didn't go anywhere. And eventually I kind of got the guts up to say, oh, screw it. I'm going right to the top. And I drafted this, like, you know, at the time I thought it was really like rock solid, but it's ridiculously amateurish, like little business proposal for a brand that I was calling All City.

Um, and the reason I needed a name change was I was like, I wanna do nicer stuff and people don't wanna buy nice stuff from dimension like that is repair level parts. So, I wanted a track crank, um, because there was a shortage at that time of 1 44 bolt, circle, diameter, you know, track cranks. And um, so I was like, let's call it All City.

So All City Championships was the name of my alley cat that I was throwing every year. So the name comes from, uh, graffiti, uh, in New York City. Um, There's a term called being All City. And what that meant was that you had a piece on, on a train in all five boroughs. You were all city. So my race went to every part of the city, so that's why it was the All City Championships.

And I just thought that would be a slick name for, you know, an urban track bike brand.

And so,

[00:11:14]Craig Dalton (Host): such a cool origin story of the name All City. I'd never heard that before.

[00:11:20]Jeff Frane: Yeah, well, there's not many people, many. There's no one left to tell the story, like, I'm it, I'm the dinosaur. Um,

[00:11:27]Craig Dalton (Host): So you started out All City and and didn't know this also All City started out with a basic concept of more premium track. Track componentry.

[00:11:37]Jeff Frane: to make nicer stuff and I didn't think anybody would buy nicer stuff with the dimension label. Um, you know, it was kind of a weird deal cuz I like nice stuff. I've always been in a vintage bicycles and so like we had to kind of Trojan horse some of the ideas in, so like, I was like, okay, cool, now we have these parts.

I wanna do a track bike and I wanna do a Minneapolis track bike. And we have winners in Minneapolis, which means, and fixed gears are like, are the best thing for winter commuters because, Maintaining a geared bike is just, that's way too much work. You know, I want the simplest bike I possibly can for these salty, crappy, slushy wind, you know, weather we have.

Um, so I want our track bike that's a real track bike with real track geometry, but I wanna be able to fit a bigger tire. And, you know, at that time, like $500 complete fixed gears we're like dominating the market. And so I'm like, yeah, we're gonna do a $500, you know, uh, track bike just to like get the project rolling.

Knowing damn well I don't wanna ride a $500 track bike. Like, no way. I wanna, I like nice stuff. Um, so then it was, you know, we kick off the project and I'm like, you know, I've done some market research and I really think that that price point is saturated. Like what we really need to do is do a thousand dollars track bike.

Uh, no one's there, like no one's in that market space and we can put all our own parts on it and we don't have to use this cheap stuff. And that's how the big block was born. That's why it's a nice bike. Uh, because I convinced them that the $500 price point, price point, there was too much competition and we could never win that game.

So we need to go upmarket.

[00:13:10]Craig Dalton (Host): And at that point had QBP acquired or started any other, uh, full bike brand

[00:13:15]Jeff Frane: Yeah. So Surly started, um, in like 1999. They changed their name to Surly in 98. So 1998 was when the Surly, or was when the one by one. Which was the precursor name to Surly Rat Ride came out and they had done some parts before that. Uh, sh I'm gonna do another shout out to Wakeman Massey, uh, founder of Surly Bikes.

He, um, freaking visionary surly bikes, in my opinion, is the most influential bike brand of the last, you know, 30 years. Um, the steel Renaissance fat tire clearance. Every modern gravel bike is a crosscheck. Like I know they're, they didn't invent that stuff. Um, you know, big tire clearances, blah, blah, blah.

But they popularized it and democratized it, and I think brought it to the forefront of the culture.

[00:14:03]Craig Dalton (Host): Certainly democratized it. I would, I would double click on that one. And yes, double shout out to Wakeman. He may, he definitely doesn't remember this, but I met him back when I was at Dean Bicycles. I think he rolled in his first, Ever framed that he welded himself at university, a 24 inch dirt jumper that was ratty as hell, but he was super enthusiastic and passionate, and I think we even tried to hire him, but he wanted to go move somewhere else other than Boulder.

[00:14:30]Jeff Frane: Yeah. Um, you know, and the fat bikes and 29 ERs and blah, blah, blah. Like surly, you know, they've done some really special things for sure. Um, and you know, QBP had already bought salsa, um, prior to that. So they had salsa and qbp, or I'm sorry, salsa and surly they had Sylvia at that time. Um,

[00:14:51]Craig Dalton (Host): had, you started to kind of understand what a supply chain for a full bicycle looked like at that point when you brought the idea of the track bike to them.

[00:14:59]Jeff Frane: I mean, kind of, you know, so like I, again, like with it was all baby steps, right?

Um, You know, I was at first when All City started in 2008. It was 15 hours a week, and I was the sales and marketing coordinator, and then I made it to 20 hours a week, and then I made it to 30 hours a week. Well, you know, I was still doing warehouse stuff and all this, you know, and eventually it got to be a full-time position for me. Um, with Lisa still, like with Lisa still in charge. Like Lisa was awesome. She was the operations person and she had a really strong product background.

[00:15:37]Craig Dalton (Host): yeah.

[00:15:38]Jeff Frane: Um, and I was able to contribute, you know, my ideas and passion for the urban, you know, what we used then called urban cycling, um, for that. And, you know, we were a really, really great team.

[00:15:50]Craig Dalton (Host): So that was probably the urban cycling angle for all cities, probably where my knowledge intersected with the existence of all cities. I started seeing these steel bikes underneath who were clearly passionate commuters in San Francisco. So how, how quickly did it kind of go from track bike? It's a commuter bike.

And when did you start to see, hey, people are using these to ride on dirt?

[00:16:14]Jeff Frane: Um, I mean, so right away the big block cleared a 32 seat tire, which in 2009 was like a pretty good sized tire. And you know, we were, before track lacrosse was track lacrosse, we were riding our fixes, you know, in the dirt, uh, doing that kind of stuff. Um, I had gotten interested in cycl lacrosse. We put out the Nature Boy, which is a single speed cross bike.

You know, all city's evolution was always, there were always constraints for all city. We had surly on one side of us, we had salsa on the other. And it was like, how are we going to be different and offer something actually unique and not just, um, you know, compete with our sister brand. So, you know, the Nature Boy was a dedicated single speed, which didn't exist in the QBP for portfolio, you know, and when people came up, they're like, oh, that's just a stop and crosscheck like, what are you idiot kids doing?

It's like, well, you know, ride the thing like, Um, you know, the nature boy, all the canal cities, I think have, have aged really well and become kind of culty classic bikes. Um, so, you know, I think, I think that came out well. We, we put out a bunch of fixie freestyle bikes if people remember fixed gear freestyle, which were also super fun to ride on dirt cuz they had big tire clearance.

Uh, then we did the Nature Boy. Um, I think the bike after that was we went geared with the, with the macho man. And the Mr. Pink and the Space Horse and the Space horse was like the bike that really unlocked all cities potential. And you know, we've always been, I've always been interested in all facets of cycling and, you know, we saw what was happening with the crosscheck and it was like, well let's, if we make a bike like that, we're gonna sell a bunch.

And that was the Space Horse, and it was our own spin on things. It was as sporty of a light touring bike as we could possibly make. Um, You know, that was Anna Schwinn's design and she absolutely crushed it with that. And that's the one that like started really opening doors and opening a lot of outside eyes to the brand because it was just a really good looking, functional and practical bike.

[00:18:17]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, yeah. And and clearly quite versatile. I think if you talk to anybody who's been around gravel for a while, as people were getting those first generation gravel bikes, you were seeing people on that bike, on the trails.

[00:18:29]Jeff Frane: For sure.

[00:18:30]Craig Dalton (Host): I already have the first generation. It's been underneath my legs for a few years.

[00:18:34]Jeff Frane: Well, and you know, the Mr. Pink cleared 30 twos, so that was my, uh, I, I raced gravel on that for a number of seasons. You know, um, the, the, the Minnesota gravel at that time was strictly like gravel roads. Like we weren't doing like, necessarily a much of like minimum maintenance stuff or double track. It was gravel, gravel.

The El Manzo 100 and you could ride a 28 C in that race. Uh, Mr. Pink Fit 32. So that was my gravel race bike at that time. I eventually moved over to the space horse because it had longer chain stays in a lower bottom bracket, which as you know, our awesome for descending fast on gravel. Um, you just, it's just significantly more stable and more planted in, I think, confidence inspiring.

And so then, then the space horse. And my big regret with the space horse is that so many people got them and just put racks and fenders and they became these beasts of burden. But if you build built a light space horse canny, it was a ripper of a gravel racer. Um, it was fast and it was fun, and it really came alive under power.

[00:19:41]Craig Dalton (Host): And you know, looking at the other Q BP brands was all city, and I know, I believe Surly is the same way. All City was always focused on steel as the frame material.

[00:19:51]Jeff Frane: Yeah, I mean steel was definitely our focus. Uh, we did have an aluminum track bike because aluminum in, in track, velodrome racing is an incredibly relevant material. But yeah, it was always steel. And you know, as I was saying, we were always trying to find that niche and there were all these guardrails.

Well, you know, how am I gonna make a steel bike that's different than surly. Well, I love ornateness in bikes. You know, I love those classic details. And so it was, let's design our own fancy pants dropouts. Uh, let's do the reinforcement stars on the bottle bosses. Let's design our own braised on seat collar.

And you know, my whole, the whole concept there was if you stripped the frame of all of its paint, could you still tell it wasn't all city and nothing else? And that was what we were going for, was, you know, unique detailers and details and bringing. Back kind of beauty into a production bicycle. Cause like a surly is a pretty utilitarian, stripped down thing.

And so we wanted, uh, and, and you know, the salsas were kind of, of that ilk too. And so we wanted a little more embellishments, a little more, um, call out to the, you know, the, the, the frame building, uh, heritage of the sixties and seventies and eighties, you know, internal top tube cable routing. You know, those kind of details became an important signifier of the brand.

[00:21:03]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Gotcha. I wanted to spend a few minutes on your QBP experience, cuz I just think it goes to underscore how much time you've thought about bikes, bicycle frames.

[00:21:14]Jeff Frane: adult life, like this is it. Um, you know, and, um, so I, I became the brand manager and the leader of All City, officially, uh, Lisa was needed elsewhere in the company. And they were like, okay, dude, like, you're ready. I, I wasn't ready, turns out. But they were like, all right, so in 2013, I became the brand manager and kind of started assembling a bigger team because the brand was growing

and you know, we put out a lot of bikes that I'm really proud of.

Uh, you know, the cosmic stallion I think was a pretty, a pretty special and cool, uh, steel gravel racer, you know, and that was really the first gravel race bike that we, that we put out. You know, prior to that it was, we were using our cross bikes. Um, for these things, and now it was, okay, this is like, this is what a dedicated gravel bike should be.

[00:22:07]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Yeah. So obviously working within an organization like Q bp, you've gotta advocate, you've gotta create the business case, but they've got the capital to bring an idea to market, and they've got the infrastructure to get it out. You've subsequently left qbp and you decided to go on your own journey and create your own brand in wild.

What was, what was that journey like and. Why? Why are you doing wild?

[00:22:36]Jeff Frane: Um, so in 2019, I left qbp, um, after being with them for, what, 13, 14 years. And, you know, I, I had a really, really wonderful experience. I, I learned so much at QBP that it was really time for me to move on. I'm kind of a weird dude. And, you know, in a corporate environment, any kind of nonconformity will only be tolerated for a finite period of time.

And we were starting to reach that point. And so I left in 2019 and, uh, you know, I never intended to start a bike company again. Um, you know, this is the thing I know how to do. I know how I have, I'm really good at having a vision and driving towards it. Obviously I know how to run a bike company cuz I had been doing it at Q P P for, you know, quite some time. Um, but kind of a random encounter with Paul Crick, uh, who owns Donkey Label here in Minneapolis. Donkey label's a clothing company. He was starting up a fab shop, uh, for the brand Stomper here. And, um, we ran into each other kind of on the massage table. Um, cuz he has like a fit studio and a sports masseuse and stuff, um, in his building here in Minneapolis.

And he was like, oh, you can write work on bikes. Like, I need a mechanic. And so I was like, all right, cool. Um, started with Paul part-time and then he found out about my background and what I could do. And so I started taking over some of the operations, um, here in Minneapolis for Stomper. Um, and it was a pretty casual arrangement.

Um, and so this is 2019, right? And so 2020 comes around and I have the opportunity. So my background is in marketing. Um, that was my, um, comparative studies in religion and marketing with a re I got at Eau Claire, which is why I ended up in a bike shop in Minneapolis. Like those things, uh, wasn't super employable at the time, so, Um, marketing came knocking and I had the opportunity to move to Portland to work with, uh, Billy Siford and his team at Echoes Communication.

And I was really excited about that. Um, you know, I, I enjoy marketing. I was really excited to work with their portfolio of brands

And I

[00:24:59]Craig Dalton (Host): is a, echos a marketing PR agency that works with a bunch of different brands in the bike

[00:25:05]Jeff Frane: Yeah. And they're the ones doing the maid show, so the maid, hand-built bike show that's happening in Portland this fall. Um, it's an echoes thing, so I had the opportunity to do that and I was like, all right, yeah, of course. Like I'm, I'm there, you know, Billy's been a friend of mine for a long time. He calls, I answer like, no problem.

And so I was, uh, I quit my thing at Stomper and I was gonna go be, you know, a marketing dude in Portland, Oregon. Um, pandemic hits. I'm one week away from moving to Oregon and everything just freaking shuts down. So, you know, he is like, you know, don't come dude. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen. And I was like, that sounds really reasonable.

I'm not gonna come. No worries my friend. You know? And so I'm here in Minneapolis and while I was working with Paul, working on his operations, um, was one I learned how to paint, which was amazing. Painting bicycles, super fun. Uh, but I had developed an American supply chain and there was nobody really using that supply chain.

And some people hit me up when they were like, Sorry, I'm ahead of myself. So while I was working at Stomper, I built what is a, what was the first Earthship? I built this personal bike for me and Paul was in the process of potentially changing the name of the company. There wasn't a solid name and I was like, you should call it wild.

Like that's a good name for a bike company. Naming bike companies is hard and I think this is solid. So I painted wild on the side of, of my titanium bike. Um, and then shortly after left, and so I had this bike wild that people were seeing on my Instagram and people started reaching out to me and they're like, yo, I see you got this bike.

Like, what's up with that? Can I get one? And I was like, yes, actually, yeah, yes, you can get one. Like, let's, let's, let's freaking go. And so started kind of doing onesie twosies there. Um, building, you know, in Oregon, uh, was simple. And then at Waterford, um, so using a couple different fabricators and started making a few, few bikes on my own.

Um, it was going really great. But,

[00:27:12]Craig Dalton (Host): And were you just following where the customer was taking you at that point? Like if they wanted a, a gravel bike, you were building a gravel bike. Road bike. A road

[00:27:20]Jeff Frane: a absolutely, you know, one of my biggest pleasures is working with a customer to co-create the bike of their dreams. So I don't ever try, I have a vision for these things and I've been riding bikes and testing bikes and evaluating bikes my entire professional career now. Um, so I have a pretty good idea when they describe how they want a bike to handle what we have to do to get it there.

And, you know, I have a strong vision, but it's really about facilitating their, what they want. Um, you know, and some people are like, I want this hedge two bangle and this C two bangle. And I'm like, bet. Like that's cool. And then some people are just like, describe a feeling they want or the best bike ride they've ever been on, or tell me about the bikes they've rid the past that they've really liked.

Um, so at qbp, I was leading the team, uh, that created these bikes, but I wasn't, I wasn't the engineer.

[00:28:12]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah.

[00:28:12]Jeff Frane: Um, and I wasn't the product manager. Like I was authoring the briefs and then leading the team of the engineers and the product manager to the, you know, to the finished product. But now, I got to learn all the things.

Uh, I got to learn how to do everything. And it, it is been amazing. Um, I consider myself to be pretty darn good at bike geometry now. Um, you know, I'm the one drafting all the bikes. I'm the one doing the mo doing, doing geo. Um, I was doing a lot of the tubing choosing, but I'm finding out that there's significantly more knowledge than I have in that regard.

And so I'm always all about turning over those things to the best people, you know, who, who, who will get me the best outcome. And so, you know, we're working with our fabrication partners on that part of it now, but I get to be significantly more involved with product than I ever was at Q, which has been really, really super fun for me.

[00:29:08]Craig Dalton (Host): I bet. So it sounds like, you know, people were coming to you, they were interested in the bike that you were riding and, and showing on your Instagram feed, et cetera. Was there, was there a moment that you sort of decided, Hey, I've made six or 10 for people I know I need to really kind of build some infrastructure around this brand, put up a website, get a little bit more structure so I can build a little bit more scale to this business?

[00:29:31]Jeff Frane: well, you know, um, building bikes in the US is really challenging. Um, there's capacity issues in terms of how many frames we can get made. You can't really scale up a ton, um, or at least at the level I was at. And more importantly, one of the driving factors for me is working with my friends at the bike shops.

So many of my best friends, uh, own shops and. The US stuff is, is awesome, but it's hard for them to make margin on it. And so I knew that I wanted to be in business with my friends and I knew that the best way to secure financial stability for my company was going to be to use my connections in Taiwan to have frames made. And luckily I was able to partner up with, um, Leche International Amazing Trading agent.

Um, I could name off a bunch of brands that they work with, but I don't know if that would be polite, cuz I don't know if people want that information out there. Um, and we partnered up with them, right? I knew I wanted to do these Taiwanese frames, but I didn't have the resources to do it and nobody was gonna give me a loan for the money I needed.

But luckily, Because I like to work with my friends, I was able to reach out to my buddy Josh at the Angry Catfish, Josh, uh, and Andy Co-Own Angry Catfish, which is a pretty well known bike shop here in Minneapolis. And they were into it, you know, they were having was pandemic time, so they were having all these issues with their supply chain and they wanted to, they, they, they didn't really feel like they could depend on anyone in the bike industry.

To supply them. So they were like, hell yeah. What we wanna do is to take more of our future into our own hands as well. And so by owning a bike company, we can make sure that our bike shop has frames to sell, has bikes to sell. And so they were all about it. And that gave me the financial, uh, horsepower to be able to afford to do our first batches of frames in Taiwan.

And we partnered up with the Max Way factory. Max Way is one of the best. One of the, one of the best places to make a bike. Um, their knowledge and depth in the industry is, is just incredible. The quality of their bikes are superb. Um, they're not the cheapest by any means, but they are really, really great bicycles.

And so now we have this Taiwanese product that we're able to sell to our dealers at a decent margin where they can make a living and partner, partner with us. And I don't know, it's just really cool that our small business. Supports their small business. And it's the same thing when we work with our fabrication partners here in the US and we work with, um, you know, our designers and we work with our bag makers.

We try to make as much stuff locally as we possibly can. It's our small business supporting the community, supporting their small business, keeping the money in the wealth in the community, among the culture creators. And that's become really kind of a rai and detra for us is, um, building, building strong community, and.

Trying to keep as much of the wealth as we possibly can inside this kind of network of friends.

[00:32:36]Craig Dalton (Host): Amazing. So if I'm understanding you correctly, if a customer comes to your website and they're interested in the bike, they've got two paths they can go down. One is kind of working with you on a custom US made frame. Second is either buying from you or from one of your bike shop partners, a production frame that you've designed.

[00:32:55]Jeff Frane: Yeah, so we do custom uh, and production here in the us you know, and there's all shapes to that. Like somebody might say, Hey, I like the custom geo, but I want this and this, this paint job. You know? Um, I'm in the business of saying yes. Like, if you wanna do some stuff, you wanna try something And we haven't done it.

Like I'm game. Like this is how we ex expand and grow our capability. And so, yeah, pretty much everything's on the table. Yeah, we have the Taiwan stuff. Um, it's cool because I feel like we can serve a customer at all levels of their kind of journey through bikes.

Um, where they, where they don't, I mean, they can leave us if they want.

Like you can buy whatever you want, but they weren't gonna outgrow us. Cause it's like, okay, you're gonna get in with a $2,300 complete Taiwanese bike. Awesome. And then maybe a few years down the line you're like, you know, I really want, have this idea that I wanna see come to life. And then you order a custom, uh, you know, steel bike from us, uh, that we make here in the USA to your specifications.

And maybe a little later you're like, oh, you know, I also need, um, you know, a titanium mountain bike. Like, let's go wild. Like, can you make that? And then the answer is, hell yeah, we can, like nothing would give us the greatest pleasure. So it's cool cause I'm hoping that customers kind of get in. They, they love their bikes and then they continue growing with us.

[00:34:14]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Gotcha. I love that vision. So on that $2,300 price point, which I think is so amazing, I mean, it's so often that. We get people on the podcast and the, the bicycles they're talking about are just unattainable by the majority of the population and you need to start somewhere. So the reason I was asking the question about kind of custom versus production line, the Taiwan Taiwanese lineup, you had to make some decisions there because it wasn't a customer coming to you saying, I want 50 millimeter tire clearance, or I want this head two bangle.

Tell me about the design of that bike. What's, who's the rider that you designed for, and what are some of the attributes of that, of that model?

[00:34:56]Jeff Frane: Yeah, so if we're talking about the Rambler, which is our Taiwanese made gravel platform, we sell it in two versions with a carbon fork. We call that the SL super light. And then we have the steel fork version that we just call Rambler. Um, that is kind of based on the earth ship as, um, it kind, it borrows heavily from the earth ship.

So in my lineage, as I progressed through the industry, we had the Space Horse, then we had the Cosmic Stallion, and then I created the Earth ship, which was an iter iteration of those works, an evolution of those works. And now we have the Rambler. And so when I, things I like in gravel bikes. I believe that an endurance bike comfortable is fast.

Um, I love a tall, I have a bad back, uh, as we talked about before the podcast. Um, so I like Tall Stack and I'm super stoked that the industry trend is going more and more towards tall stacks because, you know, high-end bikes serving elite athletes, professional racers is freaking ridiculous. Um, you know, most of us who ride even.

Those of us who ride, you know, 10,000 miles a year, we still don't hold like that riding position for a long period of time. Um, the way a professional can, um, so you know, comfortable is fast. So taller stacks. I like to design our gravel bikes with a relatively quick handling front end. I try to keep the trail number in the low sixties because I want it to be really agile.

Um, I like bottom bracket heights. That are just slightly, they're slightly lower than a road bike. Um, you know, traditionally, like a touring bike was an 80 mil bottom bracket drop. Uh, with a space horse, we have that cuz we want it to be sportier at 75. Uh, I think the cosmic stallion is 73 and the Rambler hits at 72 with the carbon fork on it.

And I really think that's a good, uh, position for it to be in. Um, for, you know, keeping it stable on those gravel descents, having it be very confident, inspiring. Uh, we spec a big tire and with big tires come longer, chains stays. Our chains stays are 4 38, uh, which I kind of think is a magic number in terms of still being agile, but giving you a little bit of cush from that rear end.

Um, kind of interesting with the rambler is that the steel fork and the carbon fork have a little bit different geometry. The steel fork needed to be a little longer to clear that big tire. And I'm actually really excited about the change because it makes the, that version of the bike really slick for gnarlier double tracks.

Um, some, you know, single track more, more aggressive off-road terrain as well as it makes it really good for six 50 B conversions. When that conversion, it's, it's designed for it. So a six 50 B set up,

[00:37:43]Craig Dalton (Host): And what is, what is for 700 C? What kind of tire clearance were you able to achieve?

[00:37:48]Jeff Frane: uh, a 50 in the rear, and then the fork clears a two, one.

[00:37:51]Craig Dalton (Host): Okay.

[00:37:52]Jeff Frane: You know, I, I mean, to me that's gravel standard now. Like if you're not clearing a 50, like you're off the back.

[00:37:57]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah, totally agree. It's been interesting, like the journey over the last, at least for me, the last five years to come to that point and see the industry come along and you know, when I first got into it, it was like you had to have two sets of wheels because. If you wanted to get big tires, you had to go down to six 50 B and now not the case.

Right. I can run 700 by 55 on my current bike and that's, that's ample, right?

[00:38:21]Jeff Frane: Yeah, absolutely. You know, I love that. Um, like every once in a while, like a, like something that's really popular, like, I'm gonna use the example like blood stones are really popular the last couple years, right. And I just so happen to be amazingly comfortable. Awesome shoes, like gravel bikes are super popular and they're also the most versatile, most practical bike you can freaking buy.

Like, it's spectacular when. The really good, smart thing also becomes the popular thing, cuz that's not always the case.

[00:38:51]Craig Dalton (Host): Yep. Yeah. The, the idea that we have this one bike in our quiver that can do so many different things and have so many different personalities depending on where we wanna ride, is absolutely what's drawn me to the sport. There's no question about it.

[00:39:05]Jeff Frane: Totally. And you know, um, so I designed the Rambler so that it can also flex into bike packing if you want. It'll fit a, a, a two two or 2 3 6 50 B. And, um, like on the Earthship, which is a, a dedicated gravel race product, um, I have just bottle mounts in the main triangle and a bottle mount underneath the down tube.

Uh, but on the rambler we have three pack mounts on the top of the bottom of the down tubes. A little more versatility there. I don't have rack mounts on the earth ship because it's a gravel race bike. But the rambler being, because it's a little more of an all arounder, will have your rack mounts. Um, you know, all of our bikes have three-pack mounts on them because I think that's standard internal dynamo routing, you know, um, all the features that I think should, should be on a, on a, on a current modern gravel bike.

[00:39:57]Craig Dalton (Host): All great stuff, Jeff. So if people are interested in finding out more about the brand or ultimately purchasing one of these bicycles, how, where are you encouraging them to go? I know you wanna work with local bike shops whenever possible, but what? Yeah. Tell me about your vision for how you interact with customers.

[00:40:15]Jeff Frane: well, um, you know, we're working to expand our dealer network. Uh, we're trying to keep it, we were trying to keep it significantly tighter. Um, but now we're ready, now that we have a decent amount of inventory from Taiwan, like we're ready to expand. The reason I wanted to keep it tighter is because I don't wanna be a crappy supplier.

I don't wanna open up all these dealers and then not have the product to serve them well.

[00:40:37]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah,

[00:40:38]Jeff Frane: So we're starting to expand a little bit. It's tough because people are like, oh, I saw this on your Instagram. Is there a place where I can go try it in my area? And for most of the people right now, the answer is no.

There, there, there isn't really. Um, you know, I think we have 20 dealers around the country at this point, and then we have some in Canada and Japan as well. So, So it's a little tough, you know, here in Minneapolis, like Angry Catfish has all of our stuff on the floor and that's been a really awesome resource for it.

I feel a lot of conversations, uh, you know, of emails and such from, from customers asking about the product, um, it's kind of handy cuz in a lot of cases I can be like, well, do you, can you write a space horse? Is there somewhere you can go check out a space horse or a cosmic stallion? Um, our bike is not the same geometry as that, but if that feels good to you, This was my previous, this was the previous work.

Check out the new iteration. I dunno if that sounded like a d Was that a jerky thing to say? I hope not much love to, to all this stuff that, you know, we've done in the past and much love to all city.

[00:41:43]Craig Dalton (Host): So are you guys holding inventory? Like if someone came to you today and said, I need a rambler,

[00:41:48]Jeff Frane: absolutely, absolutely. Um, you know, the struggle that we're having a little bit is, uh, we're offering complete bikes. Which is important and we're offering complete bike shop bikes to our dealers. Um, cuz you know, it's one thing to sell a frame to a dealer, but chances are that frame's just gonna sit there.

Like, people need to, like to need, people need to be able to test ride it and, and see it and touch it. Um, so we're selling our shops complete bikes as well, and it's proving a little bit of challenging to put together kits sometimes, but we're doing, uh, as good of a job as we possibly can.

[00:42:20]Craig Dalton (Host): And then on the custom side, if someone came to you and said, Hey, I want you to build this dream bike for me. What does that timeline look like and what's sort of the process they go through?

[00:42:27]Jeff Frane: Well, uh, I didn't answer the first part of your question, which is do we have inventory? Oh, yeah. We, we absolutely do. We have ramblers in stock. We have our bike packing bike Super Tramp. I have earth ships, US made gravel racers in stock ready to jam. Um, those are really interesting because it's some of the last stuff to come outta Waterford before Waterford closes its doors.

And so if you wanted something from that historic, um, historic place, Um, we've got earth ships for you and every time I kind of sell one I'm like, Ooh, there's one less Waterford,

Mike, like, we're getting down to the end.

[00:43:00]Craig Dalton (Host): I hope the people who are buying them know that that's where they were fabricated cuz that is a meaningful origin of that bike.

[00:43:07]Jeff Frane: absolutely. I mean, Waterford is American cycling to me, uh, Richard and his crew there. It's a legendary place with legendary people. You know, I was fortunate enough to work with his daughter Anna, at All City, uh, who I mentioned earlier. And, um, it's a huge, huge loss culturally to us and to the American bicycle industry, um, that they're closing shop, but at the same time, Richard, that's a freaking well earned retirement and what a legacy he li leaves behind.

So many happy riders, so many great bikes.

[00:43:40]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. If you, if for the listener, if you haven't heard of Waterford, just do a little Googling and you'll see what we're talking about.

[00:43:46]Jeff Frane: Um, to answer your question about timeline, usually takes us about three to four months for a steel or titanium, uh, frame set for a custom. Uh, some of that, you know, we've got a pretty good handle on production time. Uh, some of the variability comes with finishing. Uh, you know, we use a number of people depending on if you want a saraco or if you want powder coat, or if you want. Or if you want really, really, really fancy ano, like those are all kind of different vendors to get us that.

[00:44:16]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah.

[00:44:16]Jeff Frane: so there's a little bit of variability, but typically four months,

[00:44:20]Craig Dalton (Host): Nice. Nice. Anything else that we didn't cover about the brands that you'd like to share,

[00:44:27]Jeff Frane: man, Craig, um, you know, I, I, I couldn't be happier with where we are. Um, I get to continue to contribute to the, to the cycling world in some small way. And, you know, I'm super excited about that. Um, I do have something to say though, um, which is this brother. Um, when I trying to figure out how to, how to like, segue into this with, I'm just gonna say it, um, to all the people listening out there, the thing that.

Um, has really changed for me in my career and that has really helped me develop as a human being is this, um, you know, we live in a a, we live in the United States of America. We live in a capitalist society and we all have to work and we all have to hustle, uh, to make, to make life work. And, um, you know, one of the big things that, that, that happened to me, Was that I was so, I loved all city, I loved Q bp.

I was so emotionally connect, interconnected with this thing. And you know, I was Jeff from All City. Like, that was my identity. My work, my job was such a huge part of my identity that when it was time to leave, that it was like this huge crushing, I mean, it ended up being the best thing that could have possibly happened to me, um, because I was able to develop, um, into the human being.

I am, I am today, which is a much healthier. But I had conflated that my work with my value and my identity, right? And, um, so what I want everyone to just to know and to reiterate, like, you're not your job. You're not your output. You aren't how many freaking widgets you made in a day. Um, you're a beautiful special human being who deserves love.

And you know, for me, part of that deserving love is deserving to ride my bike every day. Because that's when I feel at, at most, at peace with the world, at most, at peace with myself. Like, that's what bikes are. Bikes are fucking, bikes are salvation. Pardon of my language. Um, and so I just, I don't know, like this is like the message that I wanna just tell everyone is that, um, you're amazing just the way you are.

You don't have to make anything. You don't have to produce anything. You don't have to do anything. Just you being you, um, brings a big, big, big, big, big light into this world and. That I love you so much for everyone out there and, uh, yeah,

[00:46:51]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Thanks brother. I appreciate the sentiment and I appreciate all the, all the good energy you've put into the world, into the bike community. I mean, I think we all realize this, that, you know, we're, we're. It's a luxury to be able to ride these great bikes that we ride. It's a luxury to have the time.

It's a luxury to have the community and the environment to get out there and do what we do. And for people like you who are putting it out there in good energy and creating brands like wild, I wish you all the success in the world.

[00:47:19]Jeff Frane: Yeah. Well, and thank you so much again for the opportunity to be here. It's, um, you know, it takes a village. Um, we're a little brand just trying to make our way in the world. You know, the, the biggest thing for us is like, people just, it's not that people aren't willing to choose us. It's like that people don't even know we're an option.

And it's really hard to build an audience with, like, the way the algorithms are set up. These days. So, you know, opportunities like this to be on the Gravel Ride podcast are, are freaking huge for us.

[00:47:47]Craig Dalton (Host): Yeah. Well, awesome. I appreciate the conversation, Jeff, and it was great to get to know you and we'll make sure everybody knows how to get in touch with you guys.

[00:47:54]Jeff Frane: Yeah. If, if y'all are looking for, you know, if y'all are looking for bikes, we got 'em. And, uh, I think they're real nice.

[00:48:01]Craig Dalton (Host): I love it. Thanks, Jeff.

[00:48:03]Jeff Frane: Thank you Craig.

🚴‍♂️ In today's episode, we explore the crucial role of nutrition 🍎 in endurance events such as the Belgian Waffle Ride (BWR), as we discuss this fascinating topic with Denis Faye, an expert in the field of cycling nutrition.

Throughout the episode, our conversation delves into the importance of fueling our bodies and minds for perseverance in endurance racing. Along the way, we share personal experiences of trial ✍️ and error, discussing the lessons we've learned about proper nutrition through these challenges.

We cover valuable insights from Denis's book, The BWR Guide to Eating Like a Semi Pro, focusing on developing healthier diet plans, practicing gut training, and understanding the specific fuels needed for varying lengths of endurance racing.

Additionally, we reminisce about some unique racing moments, including unconventional food choices that may not have been the best ideas 😅. Join us as we gain a deeper understanding of the art and science 💡 behind nutrition for endurance cycling. Don't miss this informative and insightful episode, designed to help you enhance your cycling performance. 📈

Episode Sponsor: AG1

Book: The BWR Guide to Eating Like a Semi-Pro

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton (host): Denis, welcome to the show.

[00:00:05]Denis Faye: Thanks. I, I

[00:00:06]Craig Dalton (host): It's good to connect with you. I'm glad you

[00:00:08]Denis Faye: Oh, it is, I, uh, you're, you're my, you're my target market. You're, you're the exact, uh, your people are my people. So, um, I, I really appreciate you, uh, checking out the book and having me on.

[00:00:21]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I feel like every year I wanna make sure to have conversations about nutrition because I. I think it's, it's something that's a very complex subject. Yet with the right information in front of you, it's easy to make a plan to be successful during a race like B W

[00:00:39]Denis Faye: Yeah. And, and there's, there's things you need and there's things you don't need, and you can kind of start with the basic stuff and work your way up. And it's also nice cuz you, you, you learn by doing, like everyone's gonna bonk. At some point, you're gonna, you're gonna have the worst trace in the world, and there's no better, there's no better way than to learn, than have something horrible happen because it's like, you know, grabbing the stove, the hot pad, you, you don't forget.

So,

[00:01:09]Craig Dalton (host): Yep. And in particularly in in these long races, I feel like there's opportunities to feel like crap, and there's opportunities to recover from feeling like crap. It's just about keeping going and making those adjustments to your nutrition. To fuel that recovery, to get the power back in your system and your

[00:01:28]Denis Faye: Yeah, exactly. I, I mean, you're, it's, especially when you're getting into the hundreds of miles, it's, it's a foregone conclusion that you're gonna run outta glycogen and blood sugar if you're going hard because you can, you, uh, can you expend more than you absorb. You don't, you just can't absorb that much, so, There's just some things you can do to kind of stave off the inevitable.

[00:01:53]Craig Dalton (host): And I think even in that, even in what you just said, there's an important realization for the listener in that you're not gonna stay completely ahead of the situation. It's about staving off the damage and never getting to a completely depleted moment in your your day effectively.

[00:02:12]Denis Faye: I mean, it's important to accept that moment because, I, I mean, a really important thing, especially in a, in a gravel situation where there's a lot of thinking you gotta do, um, once you're bonking, like your brain needs sugar too. So, uh, you and you feel miserable and you're probably not making the best choices.

So keep that in mind if you're gonna bomb a hill when you're bonking, because it may seem like a break, but your, your brain's still trying to figure out how to navigate that thing. So,

[00:02:40]Craig Dalton (host): yes. I've had many of perplexing bad decisions after bonking in a long endurance event. Stuff that just, I can't reconcile how I could possibly be so dumb in that moment in

[00:02:53]Denis Faye: it's cuz your brain was outta gas, so

[00:02:56]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, totally, totally. I, one just quick antidote before I want, I definitely wanna get into your background. Um, during Ironman, I remember I had a, a, a particular time goal that I wanted to achieve and I got so bunked in the run that I could not do the simple math to get to that point and force myself to continue forward and hit that goal, which was attainable.

It's just my foggy math led me to believe I had more time than I actually had to meet my

[00:03:26]Denis Faye: it's what? What Iron Man was that?

[00:03:29]Craig Dalton (host): I, I did, uh, that was Ironman

[00:03:31]Denis Faye: Oh, okay. Hold on.

[00:03:33]Craig Dalton (host): so I did, I did Canada in New Zealand. I'm probably like losing listeners as we speak by admitting to being a triathlete, but I, they were absolutely formative experiences to me from a nutritional

[00:03:45]Denis Faye: okay. You know what, two years ago I did a half iron man in, so, you know, and I'd like to do a full, I messed up my shoulder, but when this thing's fixed, I, I do plan it. I'd like to do a full too, so maybe they're just okay. Now, whoever was sticking around. They listen to me left because we're both triathletes.

[00:04:05]Craig Dalton (host): Both admitted triathletes at times in our lives. Well, let's, let's do what we always do at the beginning of the show, Denny, and let's, let's just talk about your background and how you found your way to cycling. Cause I know it, it happened later in life for you. And then we'll talk about, because obviously it's germane to the, to the book we're gonna be talking about a little bit later, how you found your way into the field of nutrition and how you kind of learned along the way as you

[00:04:28]Denis Faye: Awesome. That sounds great. So,

[00:04:32]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. How did you discover the bike

[00:04:35]Denis Faye: um, a guy named Steve Edwards, I mean, I always rode bikes. I, I, uh, heard the podcast a few weeks, ba was it weeks back, Andrew? I. Vance was on, he was talking about his banana seat bike. I mean, I had one of those. And then I had a BMX bike. It was a Pook, P u C h, it was a terrible bike.

And you know, and then 10 speed and, you know, and, um, then, uh, in my twenties I had a diamond back and aluminum mountain bike, but never really took it seriously. Uh, and then, uh, in. Uh, it was 2012. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was 2012. Um, I've always had kind of a, I like to do hard things or, or stupid things depending on your opinion of me.

And, uh, my friend Steve Edwards, who was my, uh, boss at Beachbody, he was like, you know, you, um, you'd probably be really good at bikes. And he was a hardcore, um, cyclist and so he gave me this, uh, CAD four. This cannondale, it was one size too big. It was like a 58, but, um, that didn't matter. I, I, I rode 20 mile.

Well, actually got on the bike, rode here from Redondo to the bridge to the marina, which was like 10 miles to get there and along the beach. And it was just magic. Of course, it was the first time I had ever clipped in. So I ran, like, I rode my 10 miles, got to the bridge. Stopped and fell over sideways. You know,

[00:06:01]Craig Dalton (host): Of

[00:06:02]Denis Faye: you gotta figure that out.

But, um, and it just went from there. I, I, uh, graduated past that bike and, um, the year after that Steve was like, you know, you'd probably be pretty good at mountain biking. So, um, just showed up at my house one day with a couple of, uh, a couple of full suspension bikes and took me up in Santa Monica mountains and.

That was, uh, that was more of a learning curve that was, came home from that pretty beat up, but loved it too. And, and then, you know, along comes gravel and, and Cyclocross, cyclocross came for me first before gravel, and it's a combination of the two. You know, it's, it's just, it's just great. It's, I, I, I love 'em both.

And, and what's beautiful about gravel and about cx, especially when you get into the single speed, but we don't have to talk about that, is, um, You, uh, um, you're not, look, I don't mean to disparage mountain biking. I, I have a great, I have a niner. I love it. I use it all the time. But the bike does a bunch of the work, right?

I mean, you just ba and when you're on a, a, a gravel bike and you do something technical, you, you really have to think it's a puzzle. And, and, and I love that. It's really, it's just really fun. So,

[00:07:18]Craig Dalton (host): And so talking to you offline, you mentioned that you got drawn into the first B W R in 2014. Right? So just a few years after you started riding.

[00:07:27]Denis Faye: So, um, so it happened on my birthday and, uh, another, I mean, I, it is just, Steve was just my cycling mentor, that's why he keeps coming up. Uh, he died of cancer a few years back, unfortunately. But, um, yeah, he was really pivotal to me and he taught me this thing called the Birthday Challenge, where every year on your birthday you do a hard thing and I've done.

A lot of them. Um, probably my favorite was when I turned 45, uh, a group of friends and I rode from San Francisco to LA in two days, 450 miles. That was pretty cool. Um, but, uh, yeah, but, but for in 2014, I didn't have anything planned. And the Belgian waffle, which I'd always heard about it was legendary ride.

Um, well, I'll go back. Can I talk a little bit about the history of the Belgian waffle? Is that cool? Okay.

[00:08:17]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, if you like, I mean, I think it's, it's interesting and I think this will go into what you're probably about to describe, you know, Belgian waffle ride was this ride that Michael Marks started and had this sort of local allure of the Spring classic. You know, he designed it around a Belgian classic, and I remember meeting Michael in that timeframe, maybe after the first couple of years, and it was just kind of this thing where he was like, Oh, you should come do this ride.

And it sounded like from, from an outsider, a Northern Californians perspective, it, it would had just sort of grown by word of mouth that this is, hey, this cool, interesting thing that's happening down in San Diego. And then, you know, as we think about it in recent years, it has become this, you know, behemoth on the calendar.

But yeah, I'd love to get your perspective from back in those days.

[00:09:05]Denis Faye: Well, I mean, it was the cool kids would always do this, right? I wasn't my, my wife was cool enough. My wife Marilyn's a. She was, she's been riding forever and, um, she doesn't like it when I talked about her, so I just got in trouble for saying that. But well, well, um, uh, cool kids here in Southern California would do this thing called the French Toast Ride.

And, uh, M MX was, Michael Marx was one of 'em, and then he kind of wanted to kind of elevate it and bring it to the masses and, and add the Belgian nest to it. And so that's where the Belgian waffle right, came, came from. And it was pretty much just a. Gang of friends is she kind of thing for the first few.

And I jumped in on the third one and it was already a, it was a big show by then. Um, yeah, so my friend Kevin and I did it. Uh, I bonked unbelievably badly. Unbelievably badly. Um, and then funny story, um, Finished and we, and there's a big feed and, and you know, my name suggests there's some frenchness in me.

And, and, uh, I, uh, so there's, there were mussels, which a lot of Americans don't eat, but I, I love them and I'm just so excited to sit there and drink this, you know, it was made in a brewery there, uh, but Belgian beer and eat muscles, I was just so, so excited to do that. But, um, As I was waiting in line, there were these carrots, and so I ate a carrot and I was super hungry, so I ate it super fast.

So I didn't chew very well and my body reacted and I, and I think what happened, right? Af so thi this is some advice. Here's an actual item for, actionable item for your, your, your, uh, listeners. Um, you have these two nervous systems. You have the sympathetic and the parasympathetic, and. You know, like you have your rest and digest one and your stress flight or flight one, and I was still in the fight and flight system, so di digestion was difficult.

That's why after you do a really, really hard thing, it's a good idea to maybe like a, like a protein shake or something that's just easily digestible is, is, is a solid idea cuz it just kind of eases you back. Like basically shoving a carrot in your mouth hole. Doesn't work. And I just started barfing and, and, and just barfing.

And I, and I had the whole presentation. I was, everyone's like, woo, bear, woo muscles, woo. Whatever they're eating. And I, I just had one of the garbage buckets and it just yacking the whole time. So that really inspired me. And it really, and I wasn't supposed to be a nutrition expert at the time, and it really, I'm not gonna make that mistake again.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna help others so that they don't make that mistake.

[00:11:43]Craig Dalton (host): Love it. So you went back the next year on the, on the following year after that, did you, did you improve your nutritional performance and physical

[00:11:52]Denis Faye: I did. I, I, um, I, well, I also, you know, in that first year it was, we didn't, back in my day, we didn't have gravel bikes. I, I was just a, it was a Fuji SST with gator skins on it. I mean, it was, I didn't even, those were cre questionable at the questionable tire choice, but they were tough. It's like, ah, that'll work.

Um, and so I did get a better, I got a crux and that was a big game changer. Um, but also, yeah, I, I got my eating right, was very smart about it, and regimented and, you know, don't, knowing a lot of it's really eating even when you're not hungry. That's a big key to, um, And another, I, I mean, I eat, you know, prepare beforehand.

Start eating for your race for, uh, yeah. You know, three or four days beforehand is when you're gonna start eating for your, your race or your ride. If it's, you're gonna go hard, right? And always eat for future. You always eat for you in an hour. That's crucial. You know, like how many times you've been riding with someone, you're like, you should eat.

And they're like, I'm not hungry. Like, future you is gonna be hungry, you know?

[00:12:58]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I think that's the thing that gets it. It's so easy to get drilled into you in the triathlon context because you're going to be doing something different. So believe me, I think when I first started training for triathlons, I went to a, a conversation with our, the team I was training with, and the, the coach was asking about, well, how do you, how do you eat when you're on the ride?

And I'm like, well, I usually do. NACA loop, which is a local loop. You're outta San Francisco, maybe 70 miles from San Francisco. And I said, well, you know, I'd have a couple bottles of water and, and maybe one nutritional product. And he would just, he just lost his mind. He's like, for 70 miles, cuz you know a lot of that old cycling training, he just kind of went out and did it and you didn't think too much about it.

But when you have to do something afterwards, you absolutely need to fuel up for that next event. But the truth is, even as a cyclist, as you just said, fueling for those moments an hour now from now, two hours from now, even if that's the moment when you're off the bike, is

[00:14:01]Denis Faye: is. Well, you bring up a good point though about I do the same thing. I'll go out on a, I'll go do the donut loop, which is, you know, super long and I get home and I had like a, A cliff bar at some point, and my water bottle's half full. I'm like, that was, that was foolish. But you know, you, you just kind of adapt and you learn how to do it.

And also if you're just going off for a mellow ride and you're not gonna get up into those higher zones, there's, you know, there I'm shrugging. I guess I shouldn't shrug be okay. I wish I could make a noise.

[00:14:33]Craig Dalton (host): It doesn't translate well into the audio

[00:14:35]Denis Faye: Lemme try that again. Uh, um, so, you know, if you're not gonna work that hard, you're not gonna.

You're gonna be fine. You're probably not gonna have to eat that much. And so, you know, I, I do. Sometimes you see these, these people mostly guys out for their, you know, their 30, 40 mile ride where they're just kind of cruising along, but they're just feeding like crazy. And it's like, that's not, you're just eating sugar, you're just eating candy right now.

You know, don't do that.

[00:15:04]Craig Dalton (host): So stepping back, so you, you started your career as a journalist and then found your way to a company called Beachbody and ended up focused for many years. In the field of nutrition along the way, as you've just described, you discovered cycling the Belgian waffle ride, the cyclo cross scene there in Southern California.

Let's talk about how it came to be writing this book, the B W R B W R guide to eating like a semi-pro.

[00:15:33]Denis Faye: Well, um, Beachbody was a masterclass for me in nutrition, you know, out the gate. Even though I wasn't a registered dietician, I, I had the opportunity to work with them and with scientists, and again, with Steve, um, uh, to, to really learn by doing and seeing how people did and then learn. Um, and then also we, we, we'd put out these programs with these nutrition guides, and then we'd see firsthand, you know, working with test groups.

And then after they came out, how. How the nutrition helped people. And I mean, it always helped people, but we were able to adjust and fine tune, you know, I got, I had, like, I, I got to be in this giant research study with like millions of people buying this stuff. Um, and you know, and have people working for me, dealing right with the customers so I could get that feedback and learn.

And then by the time I really started getting serious on the bike, I had a really solid foundation of sports nutrition. So it was very easy for me to just, um, build on that to, to, to kind of include endurance athletes into that, into that fold, you know? Um, and, and that, that's just kind of, that's what came to it.

And, uh, right after, you know, 20 years of beach pot, I decided to go do my own thing. And I, right now, I'm a nutrition, I'm a communications consultant. I help companies, um, Do their messaging and uh, um, M mx was just m mx in addition to being a cycling dude, is he, he's a marketing self, I dunno what it's called.

He's a, you know, like start, he's an entrepreneur. That's the word I'm looking for. And so, you know, asker and he's like, well, you should, you know a bunch of stuff. You should write me a book now. I don't think, I don't think he thought I'd actually do it. Uh, I was like, oh, you know what? I do know about that stuff.

So, um, kind of used my, my newsletter, uh, it's called New Personal Best Nutrition as a testing ground to write about different concepts and seeing what connected and what people were interested in, and then built the book around that. Um, and, and then really, you know, when you do, uh, you do a race like that three times in a row, you learn a lot about it.

So I was able to kind of fold my own experiences. Into, to what's required, um,

[00:18:01]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think that's really useful and as as we may have been speaking about it offline, I think it's just, it's great that these bodies of information are out there because I do think that you can make a plan that will forgive you for some of the easy unforced

[00:18:18]Denis Faye: Yes. Yeah. It's, you know, everyone gets like, you buy these books and they're like 500 pages of you gotta do this, that, and that. And it's, it's. Yeah, everybody's different. You know, like, like everybody's body's different. And so when you're planning what's good for you, the best thing to do is is, I mean, sweating, for example.

We all sweat differently. Not only do we sweat different volumes, but we got different electrolytes that are different amounts, and so you gotta kind of listen to what you do. So what I tried to do with this book, Just give people a baseline, like you read this pretty short book and then you, um, you have the tools you need to write your own book to not, well, not literally, but you know, you have the tools you need to start experimenting with your body and watching what you do because there's no book in the world that's gonna teach you how to eat right for any kind of, any kind of support, better than really paying attention to how you respond to stuff.

[00:19:19]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, and a lot of trial and error. As you know, I like the way the book is set up in that you've got sort of the science-based first section of the book to sort of establish some baseline fundamental principles, but then you get into very specific ideas around pre-race, during race and post-race. And that's the area I'd like to drill in on a little bit, just cause I think it's one of those very practical takeaways.

So let, let's talk about pre-race and I, and there's, there's probably the immediate period, those four or five days prior to the race, what you wanna do. But there is probably also prior to that, some things you want to think about, uh, to, to your earlier point around you do need to learn these things about yourself.

And one of the things I wanted to touch on was just gut training. And what that

[00:20:11]Denis Faye: I, I love gut training. I, I, I think it's, it's the thing that gets overlooked a lot and, um, I mean, for a bunch of different, again, you don't know how you're gonna react to stuff. And then also, um, you know, like when you bonk, for example, you know, bonking is when you run out of blood sugar and glycogen. Uh, do you want me to explain that or can we just leave it at that?

Everyone knows.

[00:20:35]Craig Dalton (host): I think we can leave it at that. Yeah. If you don't know, go ride your ass off for six hours. Don't eat anything

[00:20:40]Denis Faye: Yeah. And when you hit that point, you're just gonna have to shovel crap in your mouth that you don't want to eat and drink. You're just gonna have to, to survive. So if you're, if you're trained to deal with those uncomfortable situations, it's not gonna be quite so miserable.

Um, and also, you know, uh, We don't all get to preview our courses. Um, so, you know, I, I don't know if you've ever done this, but I, I've done this where I didn't quite know the race, but I knew I needed to eat and maybe I ate something a bit more substantial than I really should, like a bar or, um, Something and then come around the corner and there's just a hill, there's just a wall you gotta climb and your gut's competing with your legs for the, for your blood.

And it's just, it's just really bad. So if you've put yourself into those situations, um, you're better equipped not to suffer so much. Um,

[00:21:34]Craig Dalton (host): So what does, what does gut training look like from a practical perspective? How would you describe it to someone? What are some of the exercises they might go through in their, their months of training prior to a big

[00:21:43]Denis Faye: well first of all, don't do it more than once a week. Like the rest of the time, your training should be your training for training. You don't want to sandbag yourself all the time. But, but in a lot of ways it's part of, it's like a weekly sandbag or a bi-week, uh, fortnightly sandbag. Um, where, I mean, what I would, what I did personally would wake up in the morning and eat like a pretty reasonable, uh, bowl of cereal with yogurt.

And then go for a hard ride. And, and it's, you know, within an hour of, you know, within half an hour of, of that, you, you feel it, you feel that gut bomb. And, and

[00:22:21]Craig Dalton (host): And what, what are you feeling there? Is your, is your stomach occupying, you know, doing its thing and, and taking energy away from your legs?

[00:22:29]Denis Faye: blood. You need blood to exercise and you need blood to digest. And, um, the when you are, when you are exercising, the blood leaves your body. Now Doesn leave your body. Uh, it leaves, it leaves your, your guts and it goes out to your extremities. And when you eat, um, all the blood goes middle.

That's why when you eat, sometimes you get cold. That's cuz all the blood's gone down there to digest. And so, um, yeah, you, you know, you eat and then the blood's supposed to be down in your gut and then you start writing and the blood's going out to your, your, your arms and your legs. And, uh, that can be problem that, you know, that can be problematic.

So, but if you've done that a bunch, your body kind of understands what's going on. And I don't know the exact physiology of where the blood goes when you're, when you've got trained. Frankly, I don't think anyone does. That's not something that, well, maybe there might be a research. You know what, I'm gonna research it and see if there's a, uh, specific study.

Um, I do know there's a Japanese study where they fed hamburgers to cyclists right before they, uh, uh, exercised and the cyclists got nauseous. And that was the result of the study is if you eat hamburgers before you ride your bike, you're gonna get nauseous. I,

[00:23:39]Craig Dalton (host): Very, very specific

[00:23:41]Denis Faye: yes. So that's one thing. And,

[00:23:43]Craig Dalton (host): I imagine.

[00:23:44]Denis Faye: sorry. Go ahead.

[00:23:45]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I was gonna say, I imagine the other thing obviously is just trying a bunch of different foods to understand what works for you, whether it's gels, bars, et cetera. And also understanding that appreciating it for an hour or one hours is one thing, but appreciating it for a 10 hour day is an entirely other thing.

And considering, you know, what is that mix of items that you're gonna be stoked to eat because you need to

[00:24:13]Denis Faye: Yeah. Well, there's a couple of nuances to that. One is it's a good idea if you can, to figure out who the race sponsors are and figure out what products you'll be eating. Um, it, you know, that's, that's like a golden rule of, of endurance sport is never eat something new on, on race day. Just whether you're a cyclist or a gravel grinder, or a runner or a.

Paraglider, I don't know. Whatever you are, don't do that. Um, so that's a, that's a, that's a kind of a good idea. Although, you know, frankly, we all blow that when we go do gravel races and

[00:24:50]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, and, and if, you know, I think that's, I often tend to bring all my own gear, all my own nutrition, simply because I don't wanna count on it. But it does become unwieldy if you're trying to take 10 hours of stuff out there on the bike and. It's worthwhile testing out those other products to make sure they

[00:25:09]Denis Faye: On the, on the, my third Belgian waffle ride, I brought a burrito. I thought I was super clever. Put it in my jersey pocket and I, uh, bit the dust in the sand trap landed on my back and it was, it was kind of a really terrible case to. Still tasted good, but it was nuts. Don't do that. So, um, now they have that, they have burrito bags now.

So you guys, you'd be safe that way. Um, but the other thing to that, yeah, it's a scientific phenomenon called flavor fatigue. It's a real thing. And you just, it's, remember I was talking about that sympathetic parasympathetic nervous system thing? You, you get your stress response elevates so much that your body's like, I don't want to eat, I just wanna get done, whatever you're making me do.

And, um, And it's, it's kind of bad cuz you're just draining your source. So, so when you get in that state, and then again, the gut training can do that, you just, you need to keep eating. You need to, you know, if you, and if you're not going to eat and you're gonna bonk training's a good time to do that. It's not safe, it's not healthy, but better to screw up on a training ride than to screw up on the race that you've been training a year or two for, you know.

[00:26:19]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. How should people be thinking about those two three day run up to the Belgian waffle ride? What are the things they need to be thinking about? Are there things they need to be avoiding?

[00:26:28]Denis Faye: Um, uh, uh, anything that'll make you sick. I mean, a lot of, some people go so far as to say the new food thing is also a good time to practice that, um, you know, and you don't wanna be all bloated the next morning. Uh, I, I've given different advice over the years, but my current stance, there's a, there's a woman, Australian researcher named Louise Burke.

And her, her advice, she's great. Her advice is very simple, and that's just, you know, like two or three days before the race, eat a lot of carbs. Um, and again, you you'll learn how much that that is. But, so you have this stuff in your muscles called glycogen, which is like a back of blood sugar and, um, It kind of fills and, and depletes, fills and depletes, and you can kind of cram it full, like you can fill your muscles up like glycogen, sausages.

Um, if you eat a whole bunch of carbs for a few days leading up to your event, um, probably like the night, you know, the night before is a pretty good idea. Don't completely, don't eat so much the night before that. You wake up in the morning feeling like crap. But, but, you know, eat nice and then, and then in the morning before your race, that's not, don't think about like packing it in.

Like that's when you're, you're replenishing your stocks and you want to eat smart, sensible food, but you don't want to pork out, right? Like, you know, within those last few hours, cuz you'll just have a stomach full of food. And as much as I like the gut training and recommend it for training rides, don't deliberately sandbag yourself before a race.

[00:28:06]Craig Dalton (host): as you're transitioning to event morning and you just mentioned, you know, eat a little bit lighter, don't feel like you need to totally pack it in. Oftentimes with these gravel events, you might see athletes arriving. An hour before the event to line up or cue in, in to get a good position. Should, should you be eating during that time period, how close to actually the gun going off?

[00:28:30]Denis Faye: So the general rule again, You as an individual may have, uh, you're gonna learn how your body works, right? But the general guidelines are, uh, two to three hours of four. Pretty good substantial b balanced breakfast, but like a carby one. So we're talking, you know, oatmeal and fruits and nuts or, or pancakes or waffles or, or, or whatever.

Not. I'm not talking about eggs and bacon. Um, cuz there's no carbohydrates in that. Um, and, and then if you, Um, if you've ha you've done that, you'll probably be pretty okay. Just kind of keep sipping water. Um, maybe have like right before the start, um, have like a little gel or a little, you could have a couple of dates if you're Mr.

Natural. This is natural. Um, if you didn't do that, if waking up that early and needing that far in advances in impossibility, uh, um, like an hour before your race have, um, something pretty carby. Like, uh, like the Belgian waffle has waffles. Um, so you could just kind of have a waffle then, or, or, um, you know, a piece of fruit plus.

Um, and then if you still didn't have that half an hour, 20 minutes before, like, like, like half a banana, something like that. Um, and good luck. You probably should have woken up a little bit earlier and eaten. Okay.

[00:29:57]Craig Dalton (host): once the gun goes off, obviously a lot of adrenaline, a lot of pack riding. Certainly in in, in B W R San Diego for example. When do you need to be hitting some food top offs? And at what interval should riders be thinking about?

[00:30:12]Denis Faye: broken record, but you know, it, it, it depends on you, but generally speaking, the guideline is about 45 minutes. You should, you know, you should start feeding because you may not be hungry and you may be satisfied, but during any hard event, you're always eating and drinking for future. You, you're not dehydrated.

You will be in the future. If you don't drink, you are not boning. You will be in the future if you don't eat. So I personally shoot for about, um, 45 minute intervals. Like lot of people write stuff on their top tube or they set timers in their, um, device. To remind them when to feed. Um, you know, you said you bring your own food.

I, I, I, I like, I'm kind of cheap and I'm like, I paid this money. I'm gonna eat the food that's provided to me. But I always leave stuff in my pocket. I may actually take a few things from the aid table and put it in my pocket. I would never advise that to people, but, you know, whatever. Um,

[00:31:09]Craig Dalton (host): I am, I'm the guy who ends up finishing with stuff still in his pockets because I'm so nervous about not having food available to me when I need it, that I do tend to, I do tend to, uh, surf the aisles of the aid station and grab

[00:31:25]Denis Faye: was smart to do one year, um, I forget which race it I was doing, but they had, uh, some big brand had these squeezers like, and it was like this marinara sauce. It was like a pizza squeezer and they had tons of them. Do you remember those? It was a big brand.

[00:31:43]Craig Dalton (host): but that, that does not sound appealing to

[00:31:45]Denis Faye: I thought it was delicious.

And I'm like the only one there, there were 300 people at this race. No one could stand 'em. They like gave me a box afterwards cuz I was talking about how good I thought they, they were, I guess I shouldn't throw the, whoever came up, they, they went, they, they disappeared next year. I'd never saw 'em again, but I, I enjoyed them

[00:32:01]Craig Dalton (host): yeah, yeah.

[00:32:02]Denis Faye: out.

[00:32:03]Craig Dalton (host): So we, we've kind of set the expectation of the goal that we're trying to eat every 45 minutes. I, I love that tip of writing some times down on your top tube, or, my personal favorite was definitely that countdown timer on my watch, just to remind me, Hey, dummy. Just start eating. Don't think about it.

Um, one last thing to to, to, to think about along the way, which I think is a, a great tip. If you do get behind the eight ball, do you double up your feed the next hour or does that just

[00:32:37]Denis Faye: Uh, it might, I mean, uh, so, so it's generally believed that humans, it's carbs for starters, it's sugar is your friend, you know, all the anti added sugar stuff. I, I don't disagree with it, but when you are. In a race situation, when, when you're pushing your body that hard, first of all, sugar doesn't do that bad insulin thing.

It just goes, goes right to fuel. And two, you need so much of it so fast that sugar is a very, very good thing. Um, And generally they say like, you can absorb about 16 to 90 grams. Now they're saying you can train your gut to absorb like 120 grams. We didn't get too heavy into that, but um, yeah, I would probably, um, um, like if I forgot a feed and went, oh crap, I did as quickly as possible and probably eat as much as I could without being sick.

I mean, don't, you don't want to eat yourself gross, but. But, you know, really kind of try to, try to get back to where you were and do that. And if you bon right, you're, you're duped. I mean, if, if you're, I'm sorry, but you, you'll perpetually be burning, you know, you're gonna just be, your body's gonna, you're not gonna go as hard because your body won't let you go hard because it's using.

Energy and metabolism that focuses on burning body fat, uh, and you're just, you just feed as much as you can, understanding that, you know, you bon, you have your gel and you're like, ah, I'm fine now. You're not fine, you're fine for 120 calories. And that's gonna pass pretty quick. So just, just keep feeding and stick to sugar as gross as it is.

[00:34:20]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. One of the things you alluded to, which I do think is important for athletes to consider is the type of course that they're on, and the better they can understand the course profile or the the moments of challenge that might be in front of 'em. The better probably they're gonna be at making their

[00:34:38]Denis Faye: Oh yeah,

[00:34:39]Craig Dalton (host): right, because it's No, no good hitting the single track sections in B W R and planning to eat during those sections.

You're just not

[00:34:47]Denis Faye: No, and also you don't wanna feed and then have to do a giant climb. Like, like you, you know, you wanna always be smart and, and I, a lot of those guys mess with you. Um, I mean that's, that's the joy of gravel. I, I love the, I love the, the, I keep saying sandbag, but the sand baggy nature. Um, there's a really great, um, there's another race, um, called the rock cobbler in Bakersfield.

Sam Ames, he really messes with people super funny, but, um, but you know, just because you have you, you're at the aid station doesn't mean that's when you need to feed. That just needs, that just means when you're putting stuff in your pocket for later, like really look at the course map and see where things are and think it through.

If, if, if you're worried about that.

[00:35:35]Craig Dalton (host): If you're on a sustained climb, do you recommend if, if it's a feeding time for you, do you recommend eating while you're climbing? If you're sort of sitting in the middle of an hour long climb and you're, you're certainly not gonna get to the other end of it prior to, uh, you know,

[00:35:52]Denis Faye: Um, that's a good question. I, um, I, I just typically go in the pain cave, which is probably not the best way to do it. Uh, if you think you can get away with, I mean, if you think you can get away with it, uh, Sure. Keep it like, keep it sugary, you know, don't, don't try to eat like a ham's sandwich or anything like, like stick to, uh, gels and goos and things if you think you can handle it.

Um, I mean, I, I am, I used to be a good climber before I married a French woman and that the cheese and wine took its toll. But, um, uh, my power went up though. That's the good news. Uh, what I gained a little weight, but, um, I'm not really a climbing anymore, but I really, I do love climbing and I go deep, like I, I'm just, I'm in, I'm in.

There's no eating When I'm doing those climbs, I'm just, it's about getting up that thing as fast as I can. So I would probably, I would probably think ahead, that'd probably be your best bet. And then immediately at the top, you know, cuz you don't see the guys in the tour eating going, do you? I don't know.

You don't really see them eating going uphill. I don't think that's a thing.

[00:37:02]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I don't know.

[00:37:04]Denis Faye: Well, it, it's about to

[00:37:06]Craig Dalton (host): So when we, when we get,

[00:37:07]Denis Faye: it out.

[00:37:08]Craig Dalton (host): yeah, I know. We just gotta look, you're, you're gonna be there in France this year, so you got a bird's eye view to see if they're feeding. So when we, when we get across the finish line, I mean, I think the tendency is to, at least for me, is to grab the nearest beer, grab the nearest kind of crappy comfort food to shove in my mouth.

What, what really should we be considering? What's the balance there? Obviously, we wanna celebrate our achievement, but any considerations we should be having?

[00:37:36]Denis Faye: you, you just did something epic, man. I mean, as long as it doesn't result in you barfing in a trash bucket, it just, just enjoy, like, like you trained for months. You, you did the work. You, you just did this hard thing. You like, like, you know, there's that kind of, I don't know if you've ever heard of the 80 20 rule for eating.

Eating. Like that's definitely, you're in the 20% zone, just, just, Enjoy it. Don't the one thing you should not do. Actually, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this back because a lot of times you go do those events and you may have driven there and you're gonna be really dehydrated and depleted and alcohol is gonna hit you much harder.

So if you have to drive, be mindful that you're probably not gonna be able to hold your liquor very well. So I'd say that'd be the

[00:38:28]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I am definitely, I'm definitely one that gets leg cramps after these big events, and certainly the alcohol precipitates the arrival of those

[00:38:38]Denis Faye: yeah. Well then, you know, if that's, if you have your own kind of special requirements, you should certainly, certainly follow those. But I mean, party as much as is, is, is not, is sensible. You know, you don't wanna wake up with cramps or in jail. We'll just say that. Mm-hmm.

[00:38:56]Craig Dalton (host): All right. Somewhere in between those is your post B W R strategy. No cramps, no

[00:39:03]Denis Faye: beer's really good. What the Belgian waffle beer is, it's always really good. So

[00:39:09]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I love it. Well, I appreciate you, you, uh, Putting this content out there for the world, I'll put it in the show notes, links to both the book you've written about B w r nutrition as well as your, uh, personal newsletter so people know how to

[00:39:26]Denis Faye: I, I, you know, I'm, I don't, I don't deal with, uh, individual clients, but I really love answering these questions and helping people figure stuff out. And that that newsletter is a forum for just asking me questions and, and, uh, so that I can explore the situations with you and, uh, and, and help you come up with solutions that work for you.

So, I hope I can do that, and I, I hope, I hope I help people today a little bit, um, with some of the. The advice that, that you and I discussed.

[00:39:57]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Awesome. Thanks for the conversation, Denny

[00:39:59]Denis Faye: Thanks a lot.

[00:40:01]Craig Dalton (host): Cheer. Cheers.

This week, your hosts Craig Dalton and Randall Jacobs reconnect with the gravel cycling world and their personal lives, sharing insights and experiences from Sea Otter to UNBOUND. Dive into this episode and join the guys as they discuss the latest from Logos Components, Enduro Bearings, ENVE and a little bit of gravel beef.

Links from Episode:

Made Bike Show

Thesis Bike (Code: 'Community500')

Enduro Bearings Whitepaper

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week, I'm going to be joined by my co-host Randall Jacobs for a long overdue catch up. And an episode of in the dirt. We're going to jump into, what's been going on in the world of gravel cycling and in our own lives. With that said here's Randall.

[00:00:44]Craig Dalton (host): Hey Randall, how you doing?

[00:00:46]Randall R. Jacobs: Doing well. Good to see you, Craig. It's been a bit since

[00:00:48]Craig Dalton (host): I know I feel like we keep just not finding time to do these catch up calls, so we've got like months of stuff to cover, but I think we'll keep it brief cuz I know we're both pretty busy today.

[00:01:01]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, and I'll, I'll take responsibility for Ave for not being so available. Um, I've been building largely just like rebuilding a house. Uh, so that's, uh, a pretty big undertaking and, uh, having to learn building science and all these things myself along the way to make sure it's done right. So, uh, very joyful task, but also hasn't left a lot of bandwidth.

[00:01:24]Craig Dalton (host): And for anybody catching the video, we're looking in the backdrop at some of Randall's cabin in Kingston, New York.

[00:01:33]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, gutted the upstairs so that I could move into it while I renovate the rest of it. So definitely a labor of love, but uh, also very, uh, very all encompassing.

[00:01:44]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. Well, it's exciting. I can't wait to be sort of part of the journey in the background as I see your property evolve, and I know how committed you are to that community.

[00:01:53]Randall R. Jacobs: We'll have to have you out to ride, uh, once it's a little bit further along. I know that you sometimes make trips to New York and, uh, the riding here in the Kingston area and the broader Hudson Valley is, uh, fantastic. In fact, I did a ride last night with some folks, uh, along the Walkhill, uh, bike path up to the area around the Mohawk Preserve.

It was a night ride. And we were up there, uh, on this big, uh, hilltop meadow at about 11 o'clock for the full moon, and it was absolutely fantastic. Riding the dark is delightful and just the area is beautiful.

[00:02:28]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Writing in general sounds delightful and I have to be honest, it hasn't been something that I've been doing a ton of. Unfortunately, I've had, I feel like a string of. Setbacks this year. It's just been one of those years that as much as I've been eager to ride my bike, timing health and a bunch of other things haven't allowed me to do so.

So I feel sort of a little bit anxious about where I'm at just cause I wanna be riding more. But uh, also trying to just give myself the grace to know that, you know, it's just not in the cards at the moment and it'll come back around for me.

[00:03:04]Randall R. Jacobs: Well, I, I also have to confess on my end, this was this ride I just mentioned, with the exception of having taken my niece and nephews out a couple of times on several milers was my first real ride of the year. Uh, I've been so swept up in other things. Plus I had had, you know, some, some issues with like, pain in my hands and feet and so on that I had been dealing with it.

I just hadn't been riding at all. And, uh, There's an ebb and flow in the relationship with the bike. That is okay, even if you have a podcast and have, have built a company in the industry and so on. Um,

[00:03:38]Craig Dalton (host): was just gonna announce if we,

[00:03:40]Randall R. Jacobs: the right thing.

[00:03:41]Craig Dalton (host): I was just gonna ask if we fully discredited this podcast in the first five minutes.

[00:03:47]Randall R. Jacobs: I mean, the, the, the bike for me was always a jumping off point and or an excuse for having interesting conversations about other topics. Anyone who's, uh, You know, enjoyed any of the episodes I've done has found that like, even if say we're nerding about bicycle technology, it's actually just a conversation about technology and entrepreneurship.

Or if we're talking about sports psychology, it's actually just a conversation about the human experience. So I think, I think we are credible amongst the types of people who gravitate to this particular, uh, corner of the cycling media landscape, I suppose.

[00:04:23]Craig Dalton (host): Fair enough. We did, however, in April visit the spectacle of all spectacles called Sea Otter, where we got to hang face-to-face at least for a day. I just did a day trip down there. But I know you spent the entire weekend down there. Any sort of thoughts from what you saw that will inform the listener for the year as the new trends or anything going on?

[00:04:46]Randall R. Jacobs: Honestly, I didn't see a lot that excited me. Um, and you know, looking at the press coverage, none of, you know, there wasn't much out there that was found by others either. Um, the, we've talked about, you know, Sam's release of their transmission. So, um, there were a lot of conversations in the background about the implications of that for competition within the bike industry, both with, you know, people in the media and.

At brands, uh, component brands and, and bike brands and so on. But otherwise, I mean, it was a great festival. The, the vibe was great. It was, uh, very well attended. Uh, lots of racers, lots of activities, lots of people out and about. Uh, so as far as that is concerned, it was a big success. But nothing major from a technology standpoint that I found or a trend standpoint.

[00:05:36]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. I wonder if someone who's sort of better at the history of the cycling industry than I would sort of point to other, other sort of moments in time, whether it's been with mountain biking or other sectors of the sport where you just sort of plateau, where you've, you've sort of, you've got to a point where a lot of the best ideas have been flushed out. Because I feel like if you're coming in to build a bike today, and I'll point to my episode with Envy, with their MOG gravel bike, it's just straight down the center. Like you can't point out anything wrong with that bike. It's gonna do everything great. It's got all the sort of modern, um, tire clearance features that we've been talking about for years, and now there's just sort this sort of.

Mainline point where you can enter the, the, the, the bike gravel bike market and produce something that's really gonna do the job.

[00:06:30]Randall R. Jacobs: If anything, I think that the, the trends that would, that was clearly in play is that gravel is now very mature. And you know, our first conversation when I was a guest on this podcast, It was, you know, I, I recall mentioning like gravel bikes are essentially the all-purpose bikes that we should have been making for normal people all along.

And, uh, that's kind of played itself out. You know, there's quite a few people who have one bike for nearly everything and it's their gravel bike, and there are lots of gravel rides or gravel races. Um, I, uh, Sam, uh, Sam Jackson, my colleague at, at, uh, thesis and Logos and I were volunteering for, uh, enduros, uh, media ride.

And, uh, that was also a mix of road and gravel and people were on gravel bikes with, you know, even if they had oversized road tires on some of them, in some of the cases. Uh, so I think the trend towards having bikes that are more versatile is, is the big thing. And, and gravel is no longer insurgent.

Gravel is very much central in the industry, and if anything, road is more peripheral.

[00:07:35]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, agreed. Like I look around Mill Valley on the weekends when I see packs and packs of riders riding on the road, and sometimes I do a double take because more often than not, I feel like half the kind of casual pelotons are gravel bikes with just narrower tires on them than they are road bikes these days, which.

Obviously makes a ton of sense. From what, what we've been saying the last couple years on this podcast, you mentioned you were hanging out with the Enduro gang, and I know your wheels were being displayed at the booth. It sounds like after that conversation you had with their founder, Matt on the podcast last year, you've really developed a pretty deep relationship with that team.

[00:08:14]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, so, you know, it's funny, like Matt and I had a delightful conversation that we've recorded and then we kept going for about an hour and a half after we finished recording. Just, uh, just nerding out about, uh, you know, different concepts that him and I have, have played with over the years. So, uh, I guess nothing that I can, I can reveal in a public forum, but that might bear some fruit in the future.

Uh, and then sometime after I got, uh, a contact from, uh, Rick Sutton, who Rick Sutton for tho has been on the pod. Um, he, I think he was representing, uh, The handlebar company he was

[00:08:52]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Coefficient.

[00:08:53]Randall R. Jacobs: Yep.

[00:08:54]Craig Dalton (host): The handlebar company. Yep.

[00:08:55]Randall R. Jacobs: but Rick's also the founder of Sea Otter and, um, is now working with Enduro, helping with their, um, you know, marketing strategy and messaging and so on.

And so he reached out and, uh, we, you know, set up a collaboration where, you know, we have a, a product that we think is based on this, kind of the same sorts of principles that. Particularly their XD 15 product is, is ceramic. Hybrid product is based on, which is having something that performs at a high level yes.

But that is highly durable and serviceable. Uh, and so, so yeah, that's been a collaboration that has been an absolute delight. And um, you know, it's also been a joy to kind of work with that team. So spent a lot of time at Rick's house, uh, just outside of Sea Otter, uh, in Monterey, uh, uh, volunteering with the group rides and the other events that they were hosting there, uh, for their kind of, you know, media and press, uh, efforts and so on.

[00:09:56]Craig Dalton (host): Nice. Nice. And so, I mean, are you using some of the products in your logos, components, wheels now?

[00:10:03]Randall R. Jacobs: exclusively. And in fact, we've used them exclusively in our wheels from day one. Uh, so as soon as we started making our own hubs, we were doing Enduro bearings. Uh, so this is predates, uh, talking to Matt. I reached out to Matt because I liked his bearings, uh, and found out that actually he is a, a nerd, uh, a kindred spirit and his nerdy,

[00:10:25]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.

[00:10:26]Randall R. Jacobs: uh, by the way, that is an episode.

If any, if any listeners haven't heard it, that I'd strongly recommend, uh, Matt is a. Is really just a, uh, a he delights in the engineering, but also the history of the industry and so on, and so as a deep amount of knowledge about the evolution of the bicycle and where technology seen in bike have played roles in other industries, particularly around Barings.

Interestingly,

[00:10:50]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, it was a super interesting episode and. Actually really cool to see Matt kind of get out there. I don't know whether it's the collaboration with Rick, but Enduro seems to be doing group rides. I know they did one up here in Marin out of Fairfax that I did. I was invited to one in Boulder, which sadly I could not attend, but just great to see Matt getting out there.

As you said, he's been around the industry. The whole Enduro story is pretty interesting, and just the commitment to quality and the, the way they manufacture things, I think is worth knowing and worth listening to. And regardless of whether you buy their product or someone else's, I think if you're interested in, in the technology that goes behind Barings and what you should be thinking about, that's a great episode to get smart with.

[00:11:35]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Um, there's also, they released at Sea Otter a white paper, which, um, I, I will grab so that we can put it in the show notes. Definitely worth a read. And what I love, uh, again, about Matt and, and their approach is just very straight shooting. Like, this is how it is, this is how our products perform. Um, this is, you know, this product that we have will perform at this level, this other product and how it compares in the ecosystem.

Ver uh, Compared to, you know, verifiable test results, uh, that have, you know, clearly spelled out protocols and so on, and. You know, as an example, you know, we talk about this in the episode, uh, ceramic bearings are not something that you should really be buying for the performance improvements. The, the difference in drag is pretty trivial in the grand scheme.

Um, uh, that really the benefit when you have something like, uh, an XD 15 ceramic hybrid is that they last much longer. They're basically bombproof and they provide a lifetime warranty. So that's a, a different, a different thing. Uh, so just like sh selling, like promoting things on their merits as opposed to on some, some hype to get people to part with their funds.

[00:12:47]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think that's, you know, it's obviously an interesting journey for a lot of newer cyclists because it's easy to see and become aware of the things that have the hype around them. But I, I, I found, at least for my, myself and my own journey, sort of took a while as a mountain biker back in the day to just sort of go back to what works above and beyond anything else.

I'm not gonna lie, like I had a bunch of no shade against Ringle from back in the day, but I had a bunch of purple anodized parts that I thought looked good. I don't think they were the best performing parts in the world. And eventually, you know, I just sort of went back to some stock stuff and and focused on things that would really improve the quality of my experience, like upgrading wheels, for example.

[00:13:30]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Well, and it's really hard to know, especially, especially as somebody who's just entering the sport, but honestly, even as someone who's been in the industry for some time, like it took me years to really get to the bottom of what was real and, and what was, you know, marketing Huey. Um, and that came through talking with the engineers behind it and like hearing from them, oh yeah, this is something that our marketers wanted us to do and we actually despise it.

Um, or this is something the bean counters wanted us to do and we, and we wish we didn't have to. Um, but that's information that you only get if you're talking to say, like the head of QC at some large brand or, you know, the lead engineer or something like this. Uh, which is what we get to do here sometimes, which is great.

[00:14:17]Craig Dalton (host): That said, if putting an anodized piece of part on your bike makes you happy, makes you smile, makes you ride more, more, go ahead and do it. I've certainly got my, my fair share of colorful parts on my new bike, so happy to, uh, happy to make people smile when I roll. Roll by.

[00:14:34]Randall R. Jacobs: Oh yeah. I think, I think the moral there is not to is, is not to forego style. It's just to don't, don't compromise on the, uh, the fundamental function of the, of the components when adding that style elements.

[00:14:47]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Um, hey, I know you've been busy with Logos Wheels. Have you guys, I think you've added another wheel or two to the lineup. Am I correct in that?

[00:14:59]Randall R. Jacobs: So we hinted, uh, uh, we, we hinted this in our newsletter. Uh, we'll have another one going out actually today as of the, this, uh, publication. Um, but we have three more that we're about to release. Uh, one is a, uh, an Arrow road model, uh, 50 deep, 21 internal, 30 external. A cross-country model, which is 28 internal, and then a, uh, Enduro, uh, an all Mountain Enduro version of our current, uh, Uday wheel, uh, which is a 31 internal.

And all of those use the same kind of principles and components. Just, you know, broadening the line to, you know, hit, hit more the, uh, the sub niches for each, you know, product category.

[00:15:45]Craig Dalton (host): Gotcha and all. Were those in DU bearings you mentioned earlier?

[00:15:49]Randall R. Jacobs: All of those Enduro bearings. Uh, we are planning on releasing a, an XD 15 line later in the year. Uh, right now it's all their, um, uh, their, uh, stainless steel bearings.

[00:16:01]Craig Dalton (host): Okay. Gotcha, gotcha. Well, we won't drill too much into those new wheels just simply cuz they're a little bit outside of the gravel market, but you've still got your 700 C gravel wheel and a six 50 B gravel wheel.

[00:16:13]Randall R. Jacobs: Yes. And, uh, those have been doing really well and we've been building out our dealer program for that too, which has been a lot of fun. Actually, I, I plan on bringing on some dealers to talk about, you know, the nature of running a bike shop at some point. Cause it's just been a, an absolute delight to, to connect with local businesses.

[00:16:30]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I mean I think that's just sort of, I think running a bike shop, there's never a dull moment. Right. I know. I think we were gathering from a lot of, a lot of partners in the industry at Sea Otter that there's just been a glut of inventory

[00:16:45]Randall R. Jacobs: Mm-hmm.

[00:16:46]Craig Dalton (host): market and that's kind of jamming a lot of, a lot of shops up in some interesting ways.

[00:16:51]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. And for those curious, um, so I mean, we all saw the shortages that happened during covid, um, along with the boom and demand. Um, so in boom and quantity demanded. So shifting out the demand curve, um, and. As a consequence, a lot of shops essentially ordered whatever they could from wherever they could and, uh, including, you know, Ordering the same thing from multiple places.

And these agreements, uh, were not agreements that could be canceled. These, these, uh, pos And so everything came, and everything came all at once at the end of last season, which is when it's. You know, when things are generally quieter at the shop. So this just this glut of inventory that's kind of working its way through the system.

Um, and, you know, that's still ongoing for some shops. Uh, but for the most part, the shops I've been talking to have been able to, to, you know, navigate it. Uh, and are, are still, you know, doing just fine.

[00:17:51]Craig Dalton (host): I feel like this might finally break the sort of product year introduction life cycle that's been starting to break, and maybe less so for components, but I think more so maybe for smaller frame builders and brands that can just kind of bring bikes into the world when it's an opportune time to have a conversation about them versus.

These seasonal experiences we used to have in the bike industry.

[00:18:15]Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and certainly, um, I mean, there have been complaints about model years on bicycles from shops for, you know, probably since, since there were bike shops and brands were doing this as a way of kind of, um, you know, planned obsolescence. And so it's, it hasn't been healthy for shops. You essentially have brands that will force feed a bunch of product and then immediately release the next thing in the middle of the season.

Cuz they want, you know, cuz they're all competing with the other brands to release the new thing, uh, during the peak of the season. And it's just been pretty, um, Pretty harmful to these small businesses that have been essential to growing some of these larger brands. Uh, it's one of the reasons actually that I left, um, that I decided not to work, um, at a big brand because I, I really found the dealer agreements to be very pernicious and model years are very much part of that, um, you know, extractive relationship.

[00:19:12]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. So at, AT, and then at Thesis, you've still got, you're still working on, uh, you've still got full bike builds available right?

[00:19:23]Randall R. Jacobs: Oh yeah. And in fact we, um, we just launched a summer special where it is, uh, $500 off of our OB one Access custom. And, um, for members of the community, uh, there is an additional $500, uh, just for community members, and that's using the Code Community 500. So if you're listening, uh, thank you for supporting this podcast and, uh, being along for the ride.

And, uh, yeah, if you need a bike, reach out.

[00:19:51]Craig Dalton (host): I need to widen my camera. I've got my, my OB one in the background right on the wall.

[00:19:58]Randall R. Jacobs: Very cool. Oh, pinky.

[00:19:59]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that's right. Speaking of the cool bikes, I got word about a new trade show up in Portland called Made This August, which sounds exciting. I think it in some ways it hearkens to the, the National Handmade Bicycle Show, but a little different vibe. A ton of cool frame builders are gonna be up there.

And it's both, uh, sort of a media show as well as the consumer show. So if you're in the Pacific Northwest or you know, close to Portland or fancy a bike geek holiday, that seems like a really cool show.

[00:20:34]Randall R. Jacobs: Yep, I'll be there. Sam will be there with me as well. Um, and we'll have a few, um, wheels on bikes and, uh, enduros gonna be there too. Uh, so we'll probably collaborate with them on some stuff.

[00:20:46]Craig Dalton (host): Cool.

[00:20:46]Randall R. Jacobs: but yeah, I'm really excited to see, um, more, well, there's, there's long, there's a long tradition of domestic, uh, custom bike making in the us.

Um, but to really see how, um, particularly in metal, um, how more domestic fame fabrication can happen at scale. And so that'll, those will be some of the conversations that I'll be having while I'm

[00:21:12]Craig Dalton (host): Nice.

[00:21:13]Randall R. Jacobs: In addition to just seeing all the eye candy,

[00:21:15]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I, I definitely miss going to nabs and just having that experience and it was always such a great opportunity for Frame Builders to kind of roll out something special or something unique that showed their creativity and, uh, yeah, just always got me jazzed about bikes.

[00:21:33]Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and it's, it is the case that what happens at these custom bike shows influences what happens in the broader market. Um, it is no secret that the big brands are there looking at, you know, what the next trend is going to be. And in fact, there's a, a famous story about, uh, you know, Tom Richie's early mountain bike being brought over to Japan by, uh, the leader of another, uh, major brand, and that becoming a, uh, I think the stump jumper.

[00:22:03]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah, I remember hearing that story. The other cool one that's going on actually this month in June out in Ogden, Utah, is the Envy Groo. So it's a a ride slash kind of builder partner event. Similar kind of jam where it's just like amazing custom builders coming out. So that one's a favorite of mine because you get a great gravel ride combined with this fun bike show.

And I hope, I don't know, but I hope at Maid they're gonna do some group rides or some other ways to engage the community.

[00:22:36]Randall R. Jacobs: I suspect so. And if in fact I'll just come out and say like, if no one's doing it, then maybe we'll kick off something. Uh, cuz we got some friends in that area that could help create a route. And it would definitely be great to get some riding in the Pacific Northwest Riding is pretty fantastic.

[00:22:51]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I think that's an amazing idea. You should go forward with that.

[00:22:55]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah. All right. Um, I have, uh, given a hostage to Fortune, and I suppose I now have to create this groove ride.

[00:23:04]Craig Dalton (host): What else is, what else are you seeing out there?

[00:23:08]Randall R. Jacobs: Uh, so again, like I haven't seen a ton interesting that the, the main thing. Uh, so Camp Nolo has kind of been a distant third in terms of group sets in recent years with, uh, you know, the Swam Shao duopoly being quite dominant. Uh, but they just released a road focused, uh, wireless electronic group. Uh, so it, it does kind of, you know, this doesn't have a clutch, so it's definitely two by tight gearing roady focused.

But it does beg the question, when are they gonna come out with a, an, you know, an ecar, like gravel focused one by version and will that have 13 speed and so

[00:23:48]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, you would think by next year or so, I, I've always heard that Ecar, gravel groupo is super well regarded and performs well.

[00:23:56]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah, I hear great things about it. Um, the other interesting thing is, uh, in the article, I'll, I'll just quote, uh, quote the folks at bike rumor. Uh, they're talking about the fact that there are two different batteries used in the front derailer in the rear derailer. And, uh, uh, quote. An important note here is that both use different batteries and both have a different mechanism to secure the battery in place.

This was apparently a direct workaround, str access patents. So I haven't explored the patents, uh, in this much detail, but if it is possible to patent the idea of a single battery being shared amongst multiple, Bicycle components. There's something wrong with our patent system. Uh, this isn't serving riders or, you know, competition, healthy competition or things like that.

It's just supporting incumbents and, you know, it's anti-competitive. That's, I'd be interested to see what the specifics are there.

[00:24:53]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, that is interesting cuz there's no logical reason not to take advantage of having swappable batteries. It's just so useful in my in sh shram setup.

[00:25:05]Randall R. Jacobs: This is, uh, I, I'm definitely of the opinion. Uh, the more I explore how our patent system works, that it is, it exists less to support, um, the small, independent inventor, uh, and more to keep incumbents incumbent.

[00:25:25]Craig Dalton (host): It certainly has those

[00:25:26]Randall R. Jacobs: bot Botton paid for.

[00:25:27]Craig Dalton (host): It certainly has those tendencies.

[00:25:30]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Uh, what

[00:25:33]Craig Dalton (host): Well, I haven't been, uh, riding a lot. I have been appreciating the gravel racing scene starting up for the year, and I'm always sort of bemused and enjoy kind of following some of these bigger events on social media. And obviously like just, just this past weekend Unbound happened and I think some of the bigger stories there were, you know, big Rainstorm came in.

And mile 10 or 11, there was a huge mud bog hike, a bike section that lasted minutes and destroyed the hopes and dreams of many of an athlete. From what I understand, derailers getting clogged sounds like one of those days that choosing a one buy was a way better choice than a two buy for people's drive trains.

[00:26:25]Randall R. Jacobs: That race is already just like a notorious supper fest,

[00:26:29]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah,

[00:26:30]Randall R. Jacobs: so,

[00:26:31]Craig Dalton (host): someone made the point that, you know, they, they thought and were, were sort of saddened that all these athletes who had, you know, spent months and months and months preparing for a 200 mile event, many of them had their day destroyed by a mud bog 10 miles into the race. Whereas, you know, potentially maybe there was a reroute potential for the course that could have made it less of a suffer fest than it already was.

[00:26:58]Randall R. Jacobs: You know, it, it, it, for me, it brings up granted taking, I've, I've never done this event, haven't part, haven't, uh, been to this event, uh, have, have nothing to say about this particular event. Um, but it, for me does reinforce the idea of like, the value of smaller local events. And, you know, taking precedent over some of these like, high profile types of events.

Like you can find a, a 200 miler in New England. There's, there's, in fact a, a couple I think that go longer than that. Uh, it's just, it won't be the one that, um, will have shown up in the media a whole

[00:27:35]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, I mean the counterpoint to that, Randall, and I would say this kind of goes for like my Ironman triathlon experience. There is something magical about being part of the spectacle and I'm not,

[00:27:47]Randall R. Jacobs: true, true, true.

[00:27:49]Craig Dalton (host): Again, I haven't been out there, I haven't done it, but I've spoken to plenty of people who have, who espouse its virtues, and I, and I do.

I would like to do it one day again, just to have that spectacle moment. I have a hard time getting my head around riding 200 miles, to be honest with you, and making that seem like it's gonna be a fun day for me. But I do appreciate it and I do acknowledge, like anybody who's, who's crossed that finish line, that is a.

[00:28:15]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, that's, that's a huge accomplishment.

[00:28:18]Craig Dalton (host): especially if you had an inclement weather year like this one sounded like it was with not only rain preceding it and, and obviously creating that mud bog, but I know for some of the athletes who were out there, you know, the 10 plus hours, the majority of them were caught in very, very heavy rain at one point in their day.

[00:28:39]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, I'm recognizing there's a little bit of like, um, retired former PAC fodder, racer curmudgeons coming out me. So like I should be, uh, yeah, I, it's easy for me to say don't go to the, you know, prioritize smaller events when I got to participate in some big events and kind of get it out of my system too,

[00:28:58]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, there's something to be said for both. At the end of the day, there's no, no doubt it, no doubt about it. Speaking of your curmudgeonly, old racer days, I, I've got one that that may potentially rally you up. So this was the other one. People jokingly have the last couple years have talked about gravel beef, and inevitably like, and in any given year, someone's angry about something and I, I caught wind.

Via a sort of shady post from Ian Boswell, a former professional road athlete after this gravel lo race where Canadian, Adam Rob ended up winning. And the shade was basically that, uh, Adam didn't work in the race. And, and for those of you who maybe aren't familiar with that terminology, by working it means rotating through, taking some of the wind, hitting the front of the race, setting the pace.

Um, apparently he did none of that. Is that, I mean, is that fair racing in your mind? If you go back to your racing days?

[00:29:58]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah, that's totally fair. I mean, granted, I I'm not as accomplished of a rider as, as Ian Boswell, um, by any means. Not even remotely close. I might have been, but, um, yeah, I, I mean it's, it's a race. And you know that now, as a racer, you need to keep in mind that you know, these other participants are people that you're gonna be racing with in the future.

And so when you need a pull or something like that, you know, you might not get that support. But at the end of the day, um, at racing, at that elite level, it is highly competitive. And if that is a tactic that works, then others need to adjust their tactics accordingly. Um, It doesn't feel great, but at the same time, like it's not against the rules and that's what dictates what's okay in racing.

[00:30:49]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah, it, it's been interesting sort of watching the scuttle bit on this, cuz I tend to agree with you. My, my first reaction, and I, I, I sort of stand by this, is, it's fair racing. And in fact, prior to in the runup to gravel Locos, a number of pros had commented that there was no technical feature, no climb.

In that race that was likely to separate the strongest athletes and undoubtedly it was gonna be a, a pretty big lead group. With that said, it's pretty natural that some people are gonna try to conserve their energy. I think it's a, it's sort of in important it, tactically speaking, other athletes needed to take that on and try to sort of break them free, if you will, earlier in the race, if people are hanging on.

[00:31:38]Randall R. Jacobs: Well, also, it, it al it sounds like maybe the chorus was more conducive to this type of strategy where a sprinter could preserve their energy as much as possible, and then ultimately it's a sprint that wins. I don't know if that was the case here, um, but it's just, uh, you know, whatever strategy gets you over the line first that's within the rules and is not, um, You know, is, is not unsportsmanlike.

It, it makes me think of a example. Like, uh, you know, in, in the, in some of the grand tours and actually even in some amateur stage road stage races I've been involved in, you know, there'll be a consensus amongst the, the dominant riders in the field that it's time to pull over and pee

[00:32:21]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah.

[00:32:21]Randall R. Jacobs: and the whole group will pull over at once and pee.

And if you're like sprinting off of that, I mean it, that would be pushing the limits for me in terms of that's a totally legal strategy, but that's also a pretty lousy one. Um, but what I'm hearing with this one doesn't, doesn't seem

[00:32:41]Craig Dalton (host): And I, I think, I mean, if we go back to last year's gravel beef, it was all around s n n, not stopping at aid stations and like, you know, carrying water in a camelback or the like, which again seems like

[00:32:53]Randall R. Jacobs: Oh, yeah. If, if you're carrying your own stuff, that's totally legit. Like that's a smart, like, I, I could imagine too, if I was racing these days and I was attending a really hot race, I'd have a camel back That wa, that I had frozen the night before said I was keeping my body cold. And that would be totally legitimate.

And just because other people didn't think of it, doesn't mean it's

[00:33:11]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah. Yeah,

[00:33:12]Randall R. Jacobs: Um, so I, it's, but everyone has their lines, I

[00:33:15]Craig Dalton (host): exactly. And I think what you, one point you brought up early on, which I think is, is so true, there's both what's legal and illegal in racing, but also the social dynamics of future races. And the likelihood that people are gonna help one another. And I mean, I, again, I feel a little bit bad for all the shade that that Adam's been catching.

And I don't imagine anybody helping him bridge any gaps or working with him, which is, which is a shame and a little bit unfair. But again, people are gonna take offense to how people ride and they're gonna wanna work with people and not work with people.

[00:33:51]Randall R. Jacobs: I don't know, man. Like, if, if that's, uh, a strategy that works and you know, there are other ride, like if you're, if there are other riders who are stronger and then you're able to come up with a, a more clever strategy, uh, that seems legit to me.

[00:34:07]Craig Dalton (host): Yeah,

[00:34:09]Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah.

[00:34:10]Craig Dalton (host): my usual strategy is, is suck wheels and then get dropped. No one seems, no one seems to complain too much about that with me. That said, that said, I aspire to develop some sort of fitness on my bike this year, attend some events later in the year, and just kind of bring this year back together for me on the gravel bike.

[00:34:35]Randall R. Jacobs: Well, I don't know about, uh, cycling fitness, but, um, if you're ever inclined to build fitness through carrying rocks and building materials and swinging a hammer, uh, I know somebody who, uh, would happily, uh, give you free training.

[00:34:49]Craig Dalton (host): I love it, Randall. Well, my friend, good to connect with you again. Good to see the progress on the cabin. I can't wait to, uh, to see how it goes, and hopefully we'll hook up again this summer.

[00:35:00]Randall R. Jacobs: Very good. Good to see you, my friend.

[00:35:02]Craig Dalton (host): Take care.

That's going to do it for this week's edition of in the dirt, from the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed catching up with Randall and myself this week. If you have topics you're interested in us covering whether it's interviewing other people in the industry or athletes, please reach out to us. You can do that via social media or via the ridership. That's www.theridership.com.

If you're able to support the show, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Or if you're able, you can visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride to support the show financially. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Lori Barrett: Hey Lori, welcome to the show.

[00:00:04]Craig Dalton: Hi. Thanks for having me. Super excited to talk with you today.

[00:00:08]Lori Barrett: Yeah, and I love that background you have there in Utah. It looks like you live in a beautiful place.

[00:00:13]Craig Dalton: I do, I'm sorry. Like, probably all you're seeing right now are the, the beautiful puffy sky, uh, clouds, um, kind of reflected in the window, but, uh, from what I'm looking at, I have a little screen and then I have beautiful meadows and mountains, so

[00:00:26]Lori Barrett: Not a bad spot

[00:00:27]Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's all right.

[00:00:28]Lori Barrett: to start out the conversation, Lord. Where did, where did you grow up and how did you find the bike?

[00:00:33]Craig Dalton: Oh gosh. Um, so I'm from Austin, Texas, and um, like even from college, like I had, our household had an outpost for, um, the yellow Bike project. So a San Francisco based collective that tries to, um, repurpose bikes and provide bikes for people that don't have them basically. So even back then, We were all into bike culture and my roommates all worked at bike shops, things like that.

Um, I was sort of a casual rider and commuter, you know, for college and everything else, uh, until a little later. And then, um, somebody handed me a road bike and I pedaled off. And the first like official road ride that I did, uh, was like maybe 45 miles, which, you know, not insignificant for a first drive and kind of never stopped pedaling after that.

Um, Kind of, um, just loved it. Um, ended up racing road bikes full-time with, uh, an elite domestic team out of Austin. And, uh, ended up running that team and helping cultivate newer talent, um, some of whom, you know, are still out there, which is really cool. I saw you saw, had Whitney Allison, uh, on your podcast.

She was one of my rioters. Um, and, uh, Lauren Stevens was on our team. Anyway, it's just, it's really cool. We had a great group of women that. Some of whom have stayed in the industry and, you know, continue to love and race their bikes. Yeah. Anyway, now I'm not fast anymore. I raced on the road, I raced on the track, I raced mountain bikes.

I've done everything from match sprints to um, Enduro mountain bike races. So

[00:02:13]Lori Barrett: love

[00:02:13]Craig Dalton: of all forms of wheeled, um, travel. I have a lot of commuters now. I think my next one's gonna be an e cargo bike, which I'm kind of excited about. Um, yeah. Anyway. All of it. Mm-hmm.

[00:02:26]Lori Barrett: that's, that's amazing. So from your origins in Austin racing on the road, you discovered a little mountain biking. When did you discover gravel riding and how does that fit into what you enjoy doing?

[00:02:40]Craig Dalton: Well, yeah, I was just talking with someone about this the other day. So our, uh, roads around Austin, I mean, what I loved about where I lived there is that I had from my house on the east side of town, I had loops that I could do that were 30 miles, 45 miles. You could kind of just add these kind of like, uh, farmland roads.

And for us, the sign of a good ride, and we call them road rides, was basically what we call Rube. Um, so basically, uh, caliche or gravel sections that we would spend miles on because then you knew you didn't have traffic. So, and you know, and also however many, um, Cattle guards you went over. That was the other, the other hallmark.

But, so that was, we were riding, I mean, I don't know, probably 30% of our road rides if you went over, you know, 50 or 60 miles were at least partially gravel. And so we were doing that on, you know, back then 23 mill tires kind of build your tolerance for, uh, for a little bit of rough road. Um, but yeah, so I would say that's when.

[00:03:45]Lori Barrett: Nice. Yeah, it, I was listening to someone the other day and they were talking about their experience as a road rider and riding dirt roads. I think it was out in Boulder, Colorado. And how now it, they don't, they're not affected in the same way others are when they're riding their quote unquote road bikes in the dirt sections of B W R, for example, because it's something they've been doing for a while.

[00:04:07]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Decades. I mean, it's funny actually. I did a really fun road ride. Road a little bit in air quotes out in Boulder. Um, that included a fun dirt section and I got to petta wallaby. It was with some of the cycling tips guys, and um, actually one of my, you know, whatever my wins in my past, you know, have been for, as a bike racer, I got a top 10 on a Boulder road ride.

And all I can say is that's probably one of the great achievements, achievements of my professional cycling career.

[00:04:39]Lori Barrett: Too bad they don't have a leader's jersey for that

[00:04:41]Craig Dalton: I know, right? I've probably, I'm sure I was bumped years ago now, but whatever, I'll, I'm still holding onto it.

[00:04:47]Lori Barrett: So it sounds like you sort of went from a racer to a little bit of team management. And then how did you find your way into the bike industry beyond the racing side of things?

[00:04:57]Craig Dalton: Yeah. So, um, well basically I'd been, you know, racing bicycles and I started off working for Cliff Bar and I ran event and athlete sponsorship for them out of Texas. And, um, after a few years of it, I felt kind of like it wasn't really challenging me professionally anymore. Um, you know, it's interesting.

I mean, the way, the simplified way to explain it is that I had a pot of money and a pot of product, and my job was to figure out strategic ways to allocate these things that supported the sales team ultimately. And in retrospect, it was actually a really good, um, a really good kind of strategic way to consider.

How you invest resources. And it kind of prepared me later for, for other things. But, uh, at once I decided it was kind of time to move on, I ended up taking a job with a sales agency, so within the bicycle industry. So I was a sales rep for someone else's agency. And after a couple of years of that, I left and I started my own.

And after a couple of years of that, um, I had an offer to be a national sales manager for Reynolds, the wheel company. And that's actually what moved me to Utah from Texas. So I sold my sales agency there. It still exists. I've hired them back for rotor, which is pretty cool.

[00:06:10]Lori Barrett: Nice. And just so, so people understand, like a sales agency in the bike industry, as I

[00:06:15]Craig Dalton: Oh yeah.

[00:06:16]Lori Barrett: it and, and have have observed it, you've got independent sales reps that can be hired by multiple brands at a time. And these are individuals that go to shop, shop by shop by shop in their territory and sell Reynolds wheels or Oakley sunglasses or Jira helmets, whatever they are to the shop owners.

[00:06:34]Craig Dalton: exactly. So, and thank you for clarifying that. You know, it's the problem because, um, non-endemic listeners, which I imagine most are, it would be a pretty kind of vague thing. Um, yeah. So, like for instance, maybe my Texas sales reps work with to Fosi and Pivot Mountain Bikes and, um, you know, uh, Met helmets and you know, it's just kind of a, a package of brands, a portfolio really.

And they try not to have competing brands, so obviously they're not gonna have Pivot Yeti or you know, whatever. Um, yeah. So it's, uh, that way they can work with all of the local bike shops and, um, like, you know, we're just talking about Texas, so usually a region, the region depends on the territory, but like in Texas's case, it's Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas.

So you have these four states and so you have multiple sales reps and you know, tech reps and it's sort of its own little, it's an agency model. So we had a few reps and a few tech reps and, you know, tried to take great care of the bike shops with that.

[00:07:38]Lori Barrett: Got it. So then you moved on to the company side with Reynolds, and then where do you go from there?

[00:07:44]Craig Dalton: So with Reynolds it was an interesting opportunity and I learned a lot, um, you know, running all the sales reps and kind of managing the positions I'd been in prior. Um, but then when the position came open to be the managing director for Rotor, it was, you know, kind of a chance to continue learning.

I call it the do it yourself mba. So it's, um, it's a chance to keep, you know, keep myself from getting bored and, uh, keep kind of being able to pull more and more of the levers within a, within a brand and a within a company.

[00:08:18]Lori Barrett: Let's, we'll come back to kind of your arrival at Rotor, but because the company was founded prior to that point, I imagine, let's take a step back and, and talk about rotor and. As you understand it, what was the inspiration behind starting Rotor? What products did they begin with? And then we can talk a little bit about how it's evolved and, and when you joined.

It's a Spanish based company, so obviously opening up and having a managing director in the US is a step in the progression. But let's start at the beginning and what's Rotor, how, why was it founded? What was it all about?

[00:08:52]Craig Dalton: So, uh, you have a guy named Pablo Carrasco, who is sort of like the mad scientist and he wants to create solutions to problems. And the problem that he saw was the dead spot in writer's pedal strokes, right? So, You know, when we, um, if you look at like a, a torque analysis of your pedal stroke, not to get too data nerdy here, then obviously most people know that most of the force that they put down on a pedal is down.

You aren't really able to, even with clipless pedals, maybe there's some amount that, you know, is pulling up, but for the most part, that's not where you have a dead spot. Let's say if you're looking at a clock face between, you know, Seven and 9:00 PM on the clock base where you're putting out very little force.

So Pablo came up with a few different solutions, um, some of which were more commercially viable than others. So there was an entire rotor bike that had a, like, it had, uh, two spindles. Anyway, there's, there's some bananas stuff that he had created, which is wildly efficient. For pedal stroke, but also, you know, weighed 30 pounds or something absurd like that.

So came up with the compromise of the, um, the curings, the rotor, oval chain rings. And so with a, um, which basically are, everybody always thinks about it from the perspective of maximizing the force that you're able, or the use that you're able to get outta the force that you put downward. But really it's about decreasing the amount of time that you spend in the dead spot of the pedal stroke,

[00:10:23]Lori Barrett: Yeah. Yep. Yeah, I remember sort of, gosh, just being a fan of road racing and I don't even know how many years this would be ago, 25 years with. Bobby Gik coming out

[00:10:35]Craig Dalton: Oh yeah.

[00:10:35]Lori Barrett: riding oval chain rings and really espousing the virtue of, again, eliminating that dead spot in the pedal stroke to maximize the power that is in the, you know, the nondead spots.

[00:10:47]Craig Dalton: Absolutely. And you know, that was, you know, it. It was really, once, you know, we started having adoption within the Tor de Frances and we had, you know, a, a winner in the yellow Jersey, you know, winner of the Tor de Frances that it, it kind of became more, Hmm, you know, not socially acceptable, but that, you know, it just kind of became more normalized, I guess.

Um, and it's still, you know, it's, I've had people, you know, if I'm in a group of people that. Don't know me or my affiliation with rotor, what oval chain rings are. If I'm riding people, I've had people say, oh, there's something wrong with your chain ring. And I'm like, because they're looking at it. And if you're just looking at it, it, I don't know.

It's, it looks less round, obviously. So yeah, it's, it's, it's a funny thing.

[00:11:34]Lori Barrett: And did he come at it from a, a scientific background and sort of identify like if we're, if we're measuring power around the pedal stroke, that empirically speaking, there is this dead spot and you can improve one's power output via an ized chain ring.

[00:11:51]Craig Dalton: Yeah, and I mean, so his background is engineering. He's a mechanical engineer. Um, and so he approached it from an engineering standpoint. But yeah, basically the same thing. What's interesting now is that our, um, our power meters all come with a software that includes a pedal stroke analysis. If you've ever ridden like the old school, like, uh, comp compute trainers or something, there was a, you could make a little peanut shape with your pedal stroke left and right and what that was doing.

Was measuring your power output on the left, your power output on the right, and that was the left and right halves of the peanut and the split in the middle. The bifurcation was basically the dead spot at the back of your pedal stroke. If you could pedal with a hundred percent efficiency, then you would actually make a circle instead of a peanut.

Right. What's interesting, so we do, you know, um, like, I don't know, at events and stuff, we'll have ones that people can hop on and just kind of play with. And like at Sea Otter, we did gold sprints for, uh, for fun and prizes, which was, was super fun. But, um, you know, of course if we're having an event set up, we have platform pedals on it so people can just hop on in their sneakers.

Um, you can actually change the, um, the pedal to a platform pedal. Or the, I'm sorry, excuse me. Change the ring to an oval chain ring with the platform pedal and you see the split that bifurcation go down. So basically you see the reduction in time spent in the dead spot, you see kind of quantified the, uh, improvement in efficiency with the use of an oval chain ring.

And you know, like we make, we make round chain rings also. So, but this is, it's just an interesting anecdotal. Piece. I mean, if you're sprinting and you're gonna stomp on it, you know, or if you're on a track bike, you know, a round ring, uh, can make more sense. But like time trialists all day long.

[00:13:45]Lori Barrett: Yeah. Yeah. So interesting. So it started out, and can you, um, tell us what year it started out. So what year did the first rotor chain ring hit the market?

[00:13:55]Craig Dalton: So, uh, 25 years ago, so that would be, uh, 20. Now it's 26 years. Esther was our 25th anniversary, so that would be, uh, let's see. It's, oh, so 1997.

[00:14:11]Lori Barrett: Okay. And am I correct that it was in Madrid that the company was founded?

[00:14:14]Craig Dalton: based out of Madrid. Mm-hmm.

[00:14:16]Lori Barrett: Yeah. Gotcha. And so why don't we trace a little bit of the evolution of the product line from that origin story of chain rings and. What was the next opportunities that, that he saw in the development of the product?

[00:14:29]Craig Dalton: Well, I mean, Pablo's goal has always been to make the most efficient, you know, to increase the efficiency. For a rider within, you know, within the context of enjoying their time on a bicycle. So, you know, when something like a complete rotor system bike didn't really make sense, which it doesn't, uh, then he started looking at other ways, avenues to bring that to light.

So one thing that we've seen a big rise in is the interest in shorter cranks. You know, for your listeners who can't see me, I'm five four. Historically, you know, when I was racing full-time, I ran a one 70 crank, one 70 mill link crank. Um, if I bought a extra small or a small mountain bike, it still came with a 1 75 crank.

And you know, it took me a while to figure out that. The crank link for me really made a big difference in like, I always say that, you know, you're either a spinner or a masher in your pedal stroke style, and I tend to bounce around a lot. This is kinda how my brain works, so feel free to refocus me if, if that's helpful.

Um, but. I'm a spinner, so I'm not like a pedal masher, that's just like churning big gears. I'm not a big powerful rider, kind of small, and so the way that I make power is I spin up a gear and if my crank is too long, I can't turn it over quickly enough to generate the power I need to, and it's not like all of a sudden I become muscle type wise, like a mashing, you know, a big powerful writer.

So it just means I'm actually fatiguing myself and less effective in my writing. So, Crank link. My long answer to that question is crank link became a thing and then as power meters.

[00:16:14]Lori Barrett: so that was a that I was just gonna say, so that was an opportunity for them to convince riders that there was a reason to upgrade cranks. And build the case that rotor is making a crank that is worthy of the upgrade. In those early days, I imagine it was one of very few options that had multiple lengths proportional lengths available.

You know, it used to be one 70 and 1 75. Were the only ones in town, and as longtime listeners of the show will attest, like we've had conversations, a lot of conversations about. Proportional crank lengths and the importance and benefits of it. So totally get that. How did, when they started making cranks, what was, was there something about the manufacturing pro process, what materials were they using

[00:16:58]Craig Dalton: Ooh.

[00:16:58]Lori Barrett: were, again, in a, in addition to attracting people to the length, what, what were the other attributes that riders were considering when upgrading?

[00:17:06]Craig Dalton: So here's something, um, well first of all, wait, but, uh, something that I don't know if everybody knows, we actually manufacture in Spain, so everybody says, oh, designed in Italy. We actually have our factories in Madrid. It's, it's pretty amazing. I mean, I'm obviously, we're primarily from a country that isn't really a manufacturing country that much anymore.

So going to a place, it's like going into Willy Wonka's, you know, factory. You're just, It's, you know, amazing bike parts and like machines like C n C machines and, you know, lifelong C n C technicians that are milling these out. So kind of within that, so they came up with a, some of our older cranks were called 3d and that actually meant for, uh, three drilling.

So we use a seven series, an aeronautic grade aluminum, so it's a harder aluminum, um, which allows us to take out more material. It's more expensive. It's stiffer. Um, a six series, which is what, like, for instance, most shaman is made out of. And what our lower series cranks are made out of, um, that has a little more, a little more flex.

Um, and uh, and also you have to leave in more material in order to make it as as strong. Does that make sense?

[00:18:19]Lori Barrett: Yep.

[00:18:19]Craig Dalton: So, um, the seven series is, allows us to take out the maximum amount of material, allows us to make a super light super stiff. Crank. Um, a couple years ago we released, um, a new modular system, which took.

The total parts for a crank and ring set from 22 down to 14, which means you have fewer interfaces for creaking and you know, wobbling loose and all of the things that happen when you have interfaces. Um, what it also meant is that it took, let's say if a duce crank set was 650 grams, it took it down to 600 grams and that's still for alloy.

So a very, very durable material. Uh, we do have some carbon cranks as well, and those are, Even lighter. I think on the mountain bike side, it's the la la lightest mountain bike power meter on the market. And on the roadside it's, I believe, the lightest next to something like a T H M. So it's just, and, you know, half the price or a third the price.

So it's just absolutely, uh, as we say, it's sick light. So there's a pretty cool material story in addition to, um, yeah. And, and manufacturing. In addition to the manufacturing. Yeah.

[00:19:34]Lori Barrett: And when. When do you think about selling carbon cranks? Are there any concerns about durability or is the, the way they're dur, they're manufactured as durable as an aluminum crank.

[00:19:45]Craig Dalton: I mean, to me a carbon crank is almost never going to be as, as durable as aluminum. So that's actually one of the things that I think increases the applicability for somebody that's riding on and offroad combined. But you know, everybody's got a different set of considerations. You know, um, maybe most of the gravel you ride isn't flying up and hitting your cranks.

I don't know. I mean, you know, maybe it's cder as we call it. Um, so perhaps a carbon crank is going to be just as durable, but really, You have to leave a lot of material. I mean, there are other crank manufacturers that do very heavy carbon cranks that are heavier than our aluminum cranks, and maybe those are as durable, but at that point, what's the point?

You know? I mean, I guess you have the carbon look, but

[00:20:30]Lori Barrett: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then so it, it seems like with all that focus on chain rings and cranks, it was probably natural, although a giant leap to start offering a power meter. Can you talk about sort of, uh, Why the company decided to jump into that market and what perspective they brought that might have been different than other power meters that were out on the market.

[00:20:54]Craig Dalton: Well, you have a few different pieces. One, it was becoming more common, you know, back when Pablo started the company, it was something that even professionals didn't have on their bikes. Right? And then it was professionals and then now it's just that, you know, it's kind of a standard piece of equipment.

Like a heart rate monitor was 20 years ago, right? Um, so I think the fact that it became something that was going to be more within reach for consumers was important. But really, you know, rotor is all about, um, performance and staying in line. You know, we're working with these Tour de France teams this year.

Of course, it's with Inter Marshe. We worked with Dimension Data for a long time. Israel Premier Tech, you know, all of these teams, and they needed a power meter and we don't want them running someone else's power meter, of course. So, um, Yeah, so they started, but it was, it was a huge project. I mean, and we partnered with, uh, Indra, which is a, um, a company that provides, you know, strain gauges, basically the hardware for, um, pieces of the Spanish government, which is pretty wild to, to basically help us with the, the internals.

And then we created our own software and it pairs, obviously with all the a n T plus Bluetooth. You know, wahoo, head units, Garmin, you know, you name it, all of them. Um, but we wanted to have our own software as well. The other thing, and we already touched upon oval rings, of course, is that, um, again, not to like go too deep down a tech nerd hole, but it's, um, if you don't, if your rate of record for a power meter isn't frequent enough, it will give you an incorrect reading.

On an oval chain ring because if you're only sampling data at two points on the chain ring, well because the chain ring is not round and it's maximizing it here and minimizing it here, then it's going to not give you accurate power readings. So we needed to make a power meter that gave, you know, that was actually reading essentially in real time.

So our power meters have the most rapid rate of record of any power meter in the industry. I mean in part by virtue of wanting to make sure we're giving accurate power readouts with one of our flagship products, eeg, the oval rings.

[00:23:10]Lori Barrett: Got it. Got it. Taking a step back for a second just to kind of set the stage, and I imagine I'm not alone in being a little bit, um, less familiar with power meters, so. I recall kind of originally there were hub based power meters and then later crank based power meters. How does the system actually work?

Like where is the, where are those, um, where are those data points coming from within the rotor system and how maybe does that differ from other, in the people in the market's approach to getting power data?

[00:23:45]Craig Dalton: Well, we have a few different models, so they kind of, they rerecord a little differently, but like if you take our twin power, which actually is one of the only power meters that's recording left and right data independently, right? Um, then there are, um, two sets of paired strain gauges in the axle. Two sets of paired strain gauges in the drive side arm.

And they are reading, um, the left and right leg basically,

[00:24:10]Lori Barrett: that, and just for clarity, that's in the crank axle and each crank arm.

[00:24:14]Craig Dalton: Mm-hmm. Right. And so, uh, one of the other interesting pieces is we were just talking about, wait, I feel like I'm getting so deep in the weeds here. Tell me, like, I can go, I can go down this, but like, I'm like going back into materials science.

Um, so, uh, one of the things you have is you always have exper uh, metal, um, Excuse me, material expansion and contraction and so with temperature, right. You know, that's, that's just a thing. And so one of the pieces of programming that you have to, uh, account for in all of your power units is it's, it's basically got a thermometer in it.

I mean, it's the, the technology behind these things. It's, it's, to me, it's kind of amazing. And then you have accelerometers and all of the different pieces that allow it to provide. Uh, incredibly reliable data. So two plus minus one and a half percent, which is one of the most accurate on the market. And I actually, I was talking with the power meter engineer last year at Eurobike, and I was asking her about it.

I was like, well, why don't you know? She's like, well, we have to. I was asking her why it's not more accurate. Basically, she's like, well, If it were actually reading in real time, if it we, if we didn't do that power smoothing of one and a half percent, then the numbers would change so fast you wouldn't be able to read them to use them.

I was like, oh, who knew? Um, yeah, so the, we also have other units that are, um, spider based and so then it's a, you know, single-sided with a virtual dual-sided, um, One of the other

[00:25:51]Lori Barrett: in that scenario with the spider based one, then it's making some assumptions around your left, left leg as well as your right leg.

[00:25:58]Craig Dalton: Correct. It's using fancy math. Um, and one of the, one of the other pieces though, is that you have to make sure that they're very impact resistant.

All of our power meters are. I P X seven. Um, we actually just released a new in spider for, um, which is the spider based power system, right? Um, the, a new in spider MTV for, uh, obviously for the mountain bike. And one of the cool things there, it's is I P X seven. Plus, I think is what it's called. I p x seven basically means it's a rating that tells you you can, uh, take it up to a meter underwater for up to 30 minutes before it'll be contaminated.

So that means, especially if you're riding off road, let's say in a gravel circumstance, if you have a creek crossing, you don't have to worry about contamination for your power meter. You're not gonna short circuit anything. The electronics are electronics are all gonna be fine. With the seven plus, it also means that it's sealed against really fine Culver, really fine dust, which might be really germane as well on, um, an off-road circumstance, obviously.

[00:27:03]Lori Barrett: To help the, to help us understand, like, so to get one of these power meters on your, your bike. You need to get a rotor crank set right? So there's the, the two two crank arm version that you can replace your existing crank arm with the spider version. Are you still getting that with a crank set?

[00:27:22]Craig Dalton: Yes. So the interface is for our cranks. Um, and, um, I know there are other power meter brands that offer a single crank upgrade. You know, we did that for a while and, um, it just, it wasn't as good a system as providing the whole crank and power meter unit. I know there are also. Power meters that you can just replace the axle, but then you have problems.

They all have their own problems. So we wanted one that was going to be as reliable and as accurate as possible. So we felt like the best solution for that was providing the whole crank and chain ring, uh, solution.

[00:28:03]Lori Barrett: That makes sense. So for your interest in the gravel market, I know you guys have been active out there at various events, both participating and having trade show booths there. Where, what products are you seeing gravel riders kind of, uh, focus on in your lineup?

[00:28:21]Craig Dalton: So, um, I mean, the simple answer is, uh, like the cranks and the power meters. I mean, we do a direct mount chain ring that's a 48 32. Uh, again, this was part of the design award. We, uh, because. The direct mount chain ring is a single piece of mild. It's actually, it's, it's like a work of art, honestly.

Um, a 48 32, which normally you can't do smaller than a 42, 40, 34 2 ring on a spider based system. That's why Shao struggled for so long before grx, right? Um, was that you have to have at least a one 10 B, c, d, the bolt count diameter in order to, you know, for, for their cranks, right? So we have the 42 30, um, 40, 48, 32.

We have the 46 30 s, which are specific gravel gearings. Um, we're also doing full one by ranges in that are 11 and 12 speed compatible. We launched last year Universal Tooth Technology, which means it'll work with your Shaman 12 speed as well as Youram 12 speed, as well as your. You know, whatever, whatever you're running rotor.

Um, so it's, it's pretty cool because it kind of, I, it seems so dorky, but, um, the, uh, tooth technology is a little bit like an arms race. Each company is always trying to make something that no one else is double work with to kind of lock you into a system. And so to be able to, um, have the intellectual property that allows you to kind of thread that.

You know, the, that needle, it's, it's pretty cool. So one by rings that work with everybody's, you know, everybody's product. Um, I mean, from a 28 all the way up to, uh, 58. Honestly, that's pretty wild.

[00:30:13]Lori Barrett: Okay. If one was looking to upgrade to a rotor crank set, uh, do they need to replace their bottom bracket in order to do so?

[00:30:21]Craig Dalton: Ooh, that's a good question also. Um, so the, the easy answer is no. We make cranks in a 24 and 30 mil axle. Again, I kind of start to, I'm like, ah, how, how deep into the weeds am I gonna go? Um, but we also, we make bottom brackets that are, we use in Duro bearings and, um, they're absolutely, they're just top best in class.

Um, we manufacture all the shells and everything in Spain. Again, it's just really good quality product. And replacing, quite frankly, replacing bottom brackets is something that we should all do if you're riding a lot of miles. Multiple times a year. If you're not riding a lot of miles at least once a year.

And especially, you know, we were talking about creek crossings, bottom brackets, anyone's bottom bracket after a creek crossing or two, take that apart. Give it a little love. Anyway, your bearings will thank you. You know,

[00:31:11]Lori Barrett: So if I've got, so if I've got a shaman bottom bracket in there, it's a one-to-one replacement. Is that the same with a shram, a Shram Dub BB, for example.

[00:31:20]Craig Dalton: So yes it is. And so the shaman only uses 24 mil spindle. So again, back into our fun material science, uh, 24 mill spindle has to be steel rotor prefers the 30 mill aluminum simply because it's stiffer Steel, of course, has flex. That's why we don't ride steel bikes anymore. Um, and it's also lighter aluminum is lighter than steel.

Um, the reason that Shama likes the 24 mil spindle is that uh, you can run a slightly bigger bearing size with that bottom bracket. Right. Um, which, Adds to bottom bracket durability, however, you know, you're talking a $30 a year difference in, in material costs as far as like replacing your bottom bracket if you went with the 30 mil, more efficient, lighter uh, spindle.

That being said, we do make a 24 mil axle. It's just not our favorite.

[00:32:20]Lori Barrett: Got

[00:32:20]Craig Dalton: So if you, if you were replacing it on your shaman bottom bracket, you would replace it with the 24 mil. Axle, uh, version of our cranks.

[00:32:29]Lori Barrett: Got it. While this next product I'm gonna ask about isn't something that you guys are from intending from a marketing perspective to be for the gravel rider, I think I'd be remiss in having a conversation with rotor without talking about it. And that's your hydraulic drive train. Can you kinda explain how that works?

[00:32:48]Craig Dalton: Oh, it's amazing. Um, and honestly, I feel like gravel is the best application, but. You know this, it's the, I have a one by 13 setup on my gravel bike. Um, we had a rider win, you know, the, uh, gravel world on it a couple of times. Um, you know, a few years ago. And it's been, it's been raced at Unbound.

It's been, yeah, it's been kind of raised in all of these

[00:33:14]Lori Barrett: let, let's talk about what it is. Because I think that won't be clear at this point. So we're talking about a derailer shifters cassette, and not only are we talking about those things, we're talking about the mechanism for shifting being hydraulic, like many of us are most aware of hydraulics with respect to disc brakes.

So explain how a hydraulic powered derailer works.

[00:33:43]Craig Dalton: Well, so it's mechanical hydraulic, right? And so when you use the gear shifter, it basically triggers a little lever that then shifts the, um, the rear derailer. And it's a one by system. It's a push push system. So then when you go to shift up, uh, basically there's a, you know, the hydraulic fluid releases a little spring and then it like, You know, goes up the cassette, right?

[00:34:09]Lori Barrett: Okay, so we're imagining sort of, we've got a much like a break. Yeah, hose Going through the frame, we've got a hydraulic hose going through the, through the shift lever with Hy Mineral oil in it. When I throw the lever, I'm basically pushing that mineral oil, which is then shifting the driller up, and then as I'm releasing it via the lever lever, I'm kind of releasing a little bit of oil.

Ergo that Thera is shifting a little bit more.

[00:34:35]Craig Dalton: Yeah. And so it's a closed system so you don't end up with, you know, like with a cable system, you end up with friction and replacing cables and all that. Um, I'm like, I get very um, You know, in most of my life I'm very digitally involved, right? When I ride my bicycle, I'm pretty darn analog.

Of course, I still have a power meter and I, you know, occasionally bust out my head unit so I can see the numbers, although that's more depressing now than anything else. But I, I don't wanna have to remember to charge my bike. You know, yesterday I was gonna try and ride midday, and then it started storming.

So, I didn't get to ride. I kind of threw a little tantrum and you know, cleaned some of the house and then, uh, went out yesterday evening. And if I had kind of decided for a last minute ride without having charged my bike and then my bike's not, you know, like my derailer is not charged, how bummed am I?

Like it's one thing to have a power meter and I don't get to have my power read out and that's just shame on me. But it's another thing if it keeps me from riding my bike anyway, so I'm just. You know, I get kind of, kind of salty about it.

[00:35:47]Lori Barrett: When did the drive train get introduced and are any of the pro road teams that you're working with riding on that drive train?

[00:35:54]Craig Dalton: Um, so we brought out the first one, which was called the UNO Group, um, in 20 17, 20 18. And, um, long story short, the last year or during the pandemic, we sold 100% of production to. A couple of European oes and so there were none for, you know, you know, for, I mean, we had a couple, like of individual athletes, but when you, when you supply a per road team, you're giving them 200 group sets, like, and that's it is because we manufactured a hundred percent of the parts in Spain, like we're talking molding the hoods, you know, like this is so far from like milling, you know, C n C cranks.

But you know, you figure it out, you learn to do it. But there's so many parts that it is kind of a, a, it's a, it's a crown jewel, but it's also like a loss leader. It's not our bread and butter, if you will. Um, the other thing is, I think we saw a few years ago with, uh, the Aqua Sapone team, um, in one of the early spring races, uh, you will pry a front derailer from the roadies.

Cold dead hands, like gravel rider's a lot more flexible. I don't, I mean, I don't need a front, you know, but like roadies, I mean, heck, they went on strike in the nineties when people made 'em start wearing, you know, the UCI started making 'em wear helmets, like, you know, how long's it gonna take them? I mean, tubeless technology just brakes anyway, like, whatever, you know, we, uh, we get to be the, uh, the vanguard, correct.

Gravel

[00:37:30]Lori Barrett: I think it's, I think it's super interesting, just the hydraulic powered, derailer

[00:37:35]Craig Dalton: Oh, it's great.

[00:37:36]Lori Barrett: being the pro power's probably the wrong word, but hydraulic activated actuated there. I knew I would get there anyway. Super cool. Laura, I appreciate the overview of rotor. Um, put a link in the show notes to Rotor America's website.

So. People can check out the crank sets, which I think again, as we said, is probably the most interesting product, particularly if you are interested in either considering a power meter or equally important considering optimizing your crank length based on your body type and style. Rotor's a a great option for people to consider.

[00:38:10]Craig Dalton: It's really, it's some neat stuff. I mean, it's worthwhile to check out. We have a great customer service team out of Salt Lake City, um, technical support, um, and really, you know, like kind of coming back to the power meters. It's, again, for me, I just wanna enjoy the experience of riding my bike. And sometimes I, I want data as well, but mostly I want to have something that's extremely reliable and, you know, and doesn't, doesn't get in my way, doesn't keep me from getting on the bike.

Certainly. And so for me, you know, the power meters and the cranks, it's all, it's just set and forget, you know, you leave it alone. Um, yeah, it's fun.

[00:38:50]Lori Barrett: Right on. Well, thanks for all the time, Lori.

[00:38:52]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Thanks for having me. It was, uh, great, great talking with you.

Hey gravel fans! 🚵‍♂️ Welcome to The Gravel Ride Podcast, where we delve into all things gravel. In this special episode, Neil Shirley joins me to discuss Enve's new MOG bike, a game-changer in the gravel scene. 🚴‍♀️🌄 Enve, based in Utah, has been producing premium carbon wheels for various bike disciplines for 16 years. Their 2023 release, the MOG bike, showcases the company's dedication to meeting evolving expectations within the gravel market. 🛠🔥 Key features of the MOG bike include tire clearance for 50mm, achieved through creative narrow chain stay design, and different fork rakes available for each of the five sizes (49, 52, 54, 56, and 58) to ensure optimal handling. The MOG bike caters to racers and weekend bike-packers alike, offering versatile performance. 🎯🏁 Find out more about the Enve MOG bike, from tire width to custom frame builders, in this exciting episode of The Gravel Ride Podcast. Don't miss out; tune in now! 🎧🌟

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Neil, welcome back to the show.

[00:00:02]Neil Shirley: Thanks Craig. It's good to be back.

[00:00:06]Craig Dalton: I've been waiting a while to invite you back because you didn't have a gravel bike at Envy, and and now you do. So the wait is over. So welcome

[00:00:15]Neil Shirley: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Um, well, good things come to those who wait as they say. So here we are.

[00:00:23]Craig Dalton: Exactly as I mentioned to you offline, like I was preparing to heap you a bunch of crap for not having a gravel bike until this moment. And then as like a step back and I thought about my. Um, understanding of the envy brand and how deep you are in all the other sectors of the sport. And I see from your marketing materials, like you're sponsoring pro tour teams in the tour of France and the Jro.

You guys are all over the world. And then I'm remembering back to my mountain bike days, we're having an envy wheel set was exactly what every rider wanted, so I need to step back and say I should have been more patient. Neil, you guys have a lot on your plate. But I'm glad the envy MOG is in the world at this point.

[00:01:03]Neil Shirley: Yeah. Well, uh, I will, I will say, you know, I, I, I felt your pain, um, the, uh, having. Having the MOG for me was kind of a long time coming and, uh, something I, I was anxious for, for quite a while. And so, you know, but the really, the, the iterative process and it's something we've been working on for quite a while.

Um, and that, that process to get to where we were and where we are today with this, with this bike, like it took a while to really work on some refining it and getting the exact product we wanted to come to market.

[00:01:41]Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. And I know you guys are very thoughtful about the product development process. And just to set the stage a little bit, I'm gonna refer people earlier in my intro to some other episodes we did together where we talked about the custom road bike and, and earlier when you first got there at Envy.

But just to set the stage, can you just talk about where Envy's located and what's the core competency of the

[00:02:04]Neil Shirley: Yeah, so, um, we're, we're in Ogden, Utah. Um, we've been here, this is our 16th year in business. And we started, uh, initially with producing, you know, we were the first ones to do full carbon mountain bike wheels, um, and really just grew the premium, uh, carbon wheel business for, for road and then gravel, triathlon, you name it.

Um, and then, Two and a half years, two years. Just over two years ago, we introduced the custom road, so our first envy road bike, um, and that, that that bike is made, uh, completely here in Ogden as well.

[00:02:46]Craig Dalton: And am I correct in recalling that prior to that you had been working on supplying some tubes or some technology to some other frame builders along the way to kind of earn some of your chops in the in the frame world?

[00:02:56]Neil Shirley: Uh, from the very early years we were, uh, we were rolling carbon tubes and selling them to, um, cal quite a few of the custom builders. Um, then we also worked on projects. Uh, we did, uh, You know, I don't know if you recall the Cervelo P five x, uh, triathlon, um, triathlon bike. We did, uh, we, we did the fork, uh, and front end, uh, design for Cervelo.

Um, we did, uh, a carbon rear end for Santa Cruz on one of their mountain bikes. So kind of the frame world. Um, We're we're not necess even though we hadn't produced a bike with the NV aim on it until two years ago. Like we were, we were not new in, in, in kind of the, the frame business.

[00:03:42]Craig Dalton: Yeah. And then on the buildup of the product, uh, products that envy produces, starting from the wheel set, then you then obviously built a name for yourself in carbon forks, later stems, handle bars, seat posts, kind of everything around the cockpit.

[00:04:00]Neil Shirley: exactly. The, the component world. And I, I mean, we learned, we learned so much with, with wheels, um, especially when it came to the roadside with, you know, just aerodynamics. How, how, um, You know, how to make the fastest wheels in the world and, you know, uh, support world tour, uh, race teams. And so we took a lot of those learnings and that's, that's what we really started applying to our frames.

How, uh, aerodynamically, how, how a frame and the wheels can work together.

[00:04:32]Craig Dalton: And if you could talk a little bit about carbon and carbon layups. I think one of the things I found interesting in going to your facility there was the multitude of ways in which you can kind of produce the base material and then think about how it goes into any one of these products from a wheel

[00:04:48]Neil Shirley: Yeah. Um, there's, you know, there's always, in the industry, there's, there's a lot of marketing spin on a particular type of material or the modus of, of that material. And the reality is, um, pretty much everyone in the bike industry has access to the same, to the same materials. Um, You know, a, a certain bike brand doesn't have access to anything that, that we don't have and vice versa.

So it's really not, it, it's not about the, the material itself that differentiates product. It's, it's what you put into the mold and basically the recipe and how, how that layup is designed. And that's really where it's where the engineering team comes in and you know, we have. 12, you know, a dozen engineers here, um, full-time at Envy.

Um, and that's really what most of 'em are, are looking at is, is what the, what the laminate is. And, and that's where, you know, Because we're, because we're making those rims right here in Ogden, um, we can really manipulate and change the ride quality through, through these, the development process. And again, it's a very iter iterative process where we can change, change the, the layup just slightly, um, go, you know, do a 45 degree angle, uh, for, for some of the material and.

Basically bake that rim and be riding it a couple days later and take that feedback and make another iteration if necessary. So, um, that happens. That happens a lot in the process, and I think that's really one of the things that has allowed us to get to where we are, you know, in the premium wheel category.

[00:06:33]Craig Dalton: So in 2021, as you mentioned, you guys introduced the custom road. Set up and that provided people the opportunity to order a, a custom bicycle for you. Kinda interesting, I'm curious to get the perspective is why go custom right away versus a a, a standard product line?

[00:06:49]Neil Shirley: Uh, I think it's because we. We could, um, it simply, it's because within the building we had everything we needed to be able to do that. Um, we felt that, we felt that there was a hole in the market in having a, you know, there's, there's a lot of amazing custom builders out there. Um, and there are a lot of really high tech, uh, integrated aero carbon frames out there, but there were not.

There wasn't really anyone combining those two. So we came up with, with a process where we could do custom geometry with, um, kind of a modern carbon road frame with aero shaping integration. Um, so we felt that the custom road, you know, kind of filled that void that was, that was out there on the market and, and really the process of how we build that bike, it makes no difference if you know it.

Every, basically all the tubes are cut, cut to length, so there, there really is nothing stock where each, each frame is so, um, uniquely made that to be able to offer custom geometry didn't, didn't make it any more challenging for us.

[00:08:07]Craig Dalton: Yeah, it in some ways it's a brilliant marketing strategy just to kind of set the, the, um, riders, just look at those bikes out on the, on the, on the, on the roads with their custom paint jobs, the, the custom geometry with a great deal of lust, and then to later introduce the melee, which was a, a sta a standard frame sized road bike.

I think that was 2022. It just sort of made it more accessible. For riders who might have been lusting after the custom road

[00:08:37]Neil Shirley: Yeah, exactly. We, we really took, um, the learnings from the custom road, applied that, uh, to the melee. And when you look at the two side by side, I mean, you, you can obviously see how much, uh, d design cues they, they share. Um, but the, the melee, the stock geometry bike is really with the custom road. We, on a good week, we produce four.

Four of those, um, you know, just the, the custom nature, the, the paint job, everything takes a long time. Um, so, uh, that doesn't, the custom road doesn't really allow us to scale and be the bike brand that, that we. We envision being, and we, you know, our, our, our goal of, of being. Um, and it, it was really the stock geometry bikes that, you know, that allows us to do that.

They're, they're not made here in-house. Um, they're, you know, made by, uh, one of our overseas vendors. But we are the ones that, you know, controlled that process from, from design to layup through, you know, all the way throughout.

[00:09:44]Craig Dalton: Yeah, so even with that, that partnership, you guys are able to take your engineering, your, your desires as to how the layups are put into the mold, et cetera, and have them executed by a trusted

[00:09:55]Neil Shirley: Exactly. Yeah. And now, you know, the, the melee, um, and now the mog, uh, It allows us to, you know, have a, have a bike in our retail partners across, you know, not just across the country, but across the globe. Um, so you can go in, you know, to your local envy dealer and, you know, have a bike on the, you know, rated a ride right off the floor.

[00:10:19]Craig Dalton: And with, with the melee, was it introduced as a complete bike or was it sold as a, as a chassis?

[00:10:24]Neil Shirley: it, it was a, it was a chassis only. Um, and actually just this week, um, we're now introducing complete builds. Obviously for the end consumer that's dealing with their, their local retailer. You know, that for the most part they're, they're buying a. They're working with their dealer to buy a complete bike.

We're now offering, uh, a few different build options for the dealers. So get, it just allows us to be a little more competitive with our pricing.

[00:10:53]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Got you. So for just a little clarity for the uninitiated, a chassis would include the frame fork, stem bar seat post. Am I getting 'em? All right. Yeah. Yeah. And then as you mentioned, like chances are your local shop is gonna be filling in the details and getting you your dream bike, but as you mentioned, you've now added on the ability for dealers to purchase a, a completely built up bike to put on the showroom floor rather than them taking that step of getting the components, et cetera.

[00:11:25]Neil Shirley: Yep. So, so yeah, we're just kind of starting to slowly chip away and grow growing into a real bike brand.

[00:11:34]Craig Dalton: So the MOG has been on your mind for a while, but it took till 2023 for that to come out. You know, why? Why wait, why, why sequence it in this way? And what were some of the advantages of

[00:11:45]Neil Shirley: Um, I think with gravel or I know with gravel, it's, it's progressing and changing so quickly. Um, not just how, not just how people are riding the bikes, but I think what the expectations are in, in the bike that you get, um, and. It's capabilities, it's versatility. Um, so we, we really did our homework on the mog and you know, we had a few, you know, there were a couple of us in the building that had like some very firm, uh, things that we wa features of the bike.

And so we kind of laid those out and took it over to the engineering team and said, okay. You guys are the smart ones. You figure out how to, how to do this. But these, these are the key elements we want on the bike. And they were able to, to achieve that. Um, I get, you know, tire clearance, tire clearance for 50 millimeters.

It was, was a, was a big one. We don't, you know, the trend is bigger, bigger, bigger. I don't see that slowing down anytime soon. I think you will get to a point where, You know, you might as well be on a mountain bike, but, um, I felt like 50. Being able to run a 50 millimeter tire right now is, is pretty sweet.

Most of the time you don't ever need that, but it's nice to know that you can. So,

[00:13:08]Craig Dalton: Absolutely. I'm actually curious to get a little bit of your opinion on this, cause I know your, your experience in Gravel goes way back and riding Franken bikes at Crusher and the Tusher and just riding what you got. And I know you're a very capable rider and you probably have ridden your. Custom road on gravel roads at this point without much issue, kinda where do you stand personally on that?

Like as someone who like made do, let's call it that, like it was, we made do with the tire clearance we had. Now that you have that massive clearance, where do you find yourself most excited to ride from a tire width

[00:13:42]Neil Shirley: I, I'm typically, you know, between a 42 and a 44 for most of the riding I'm doing, um, here in, you know, here in, in Northern Utah. And, you know, you've ridden the groo course, our, our gravel event that we put on here. And so, you know how rocky and kind of gnarly, even just like the, the forestry roads are, you know, A mountain bike is probably better suited to it.

Um, so for some of that stuff, you know, 44 is, is really nice. Um, you know, I could, I have ridden with a 50, but you know, I still, I feel like kind of that sweet spot of performance and capability is kind of in that 42 to 44 range.

[00:14:27]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, I know, and I, I think you said you guys have like a lunch road ride over at Envy, and I'm sure it gets quite spirited and you've got a background riding on the road. So I, I was just curious to get your perspective on that, whether, you know, when you have the fifties on there, it, it feels as spunky as you want it to feel.

[00:14:45]Neil Shirley: Yeah. Um, I think for Forio this year, I think I'm gonna run, I'll plan to run 48, um, because. When you're in a group and they're, uh, they're fast guys that you, you want to try and keep up with through, through technical sections, you take, you know, you take bigger risks and, uh, you know, with gravel bikes for so many years, we, we've been underbid most of the time when we're, when we're descending or you're on, you know, technical train.

And I think the, the MOG and kind of like these. These latest generations of some of the, the other gravel bikes out there, all of a sudden are, are kind of bridging that, where you really can ride up to your level, you know, within reason. Of course, if it gets too rocky, obviously you don't have suspension and all that, but, um, just with the volume of tires that we can run now, uh, it's, it's incredible what you can do with tire pressure and I feel, I feel so confident now on, on big tires.

[00:15:46]Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting. I've got a set of fifties that I've just been too lazy to put on the bike, but the, the current bikes, uh, the current 44 s are well worn past their date. And I, I just need to find the time and remount these tires so I can experience what a 50 feels like. But I do, I agree.

Like, I think that's the interesting thing, uh, about this moment in time with gravel bike and gravel bike design now that you are achieving. High performing frame design around a 700 by 50. I don't think you need to talk about six 50 B anymore. It's just not part of the conversation. As I was mentioning to you earlier, my first set of gravel bikes, like I needed two sets of wheels because I just couldn't have the range that I was looking for.

But I, I don't envision for me even bike packing that I would ever want more than a, than a 50

[00:16:36]Neil Shirley: Yeah. And, and that's kind of what we settled on. I mean, one of those, one of those key things we really wanted, um, we, we did, uh, There are a couple of us that spent a lot of time between our 700 C, you know, 700 by 40, 700 by 42, um, and six 50. And we really liked, you know, we liked it when we were writing six 50, but then as we stepped back to really think, what did we like about it?

It was, it was the tire size, it was the volume, not necessarily the wheel size. And so we're like, okay. We really want to be, ultimately 700 is what we want to be. It's just the current frame designs limited that size. So if we could do 700 by 50, you'd get the best of both worlds.

[00:17:25]Craig Dalton: Was it a, was there some sort of magic design bullet that people arrived on? Was it dual drop stays? What was the unlock that made it possible that we weren't thinking about four years

[00:17:36]Neil Shirley: Um, yeah, that's a really good question cuz you see, you know, if you look at some of the most popular, you know, gravel, gravel bikes on the market right now that do achieve decent, decent amount of clearance, you see everything, you know, from the, from the drop stay, um, to the elevated to the elevated stay.

Uh, we wanted, we really wanted to keep a traditional looking. You know, chains stay designed. Um, and that's, that's where our engineers had to get creative and uh, they were able to, to maintain standard looking Right. Chains stay, but what, what they. To, you know, to get the tire clearance and chain ring clearance, they made the right chainstay, um, incredibly narrow, um, so narrow that you wouldn't, you normally wouldn't be able to achieve it.

But, um, they made it solid carbon, so it's a solid carbon stay from the, from the bottom bracket shell for, to the next, you know, six centimeters or so. And then, um, That allowed us to get the stiffness and the strength needed, you know, for it to be that narrow, so,

[00:18:49]Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. That's exactly what I arrived at with a custom tie frame I had built. I just needed to have like a little solid piece of titanium to give me that little bit extra room that I needed to make it all come together.

[00:19:01]Neil Shirley: So then, you know, routing the. The derailer, the rear derailer cable gets, you know, gets tricky. So what they, you know what the, the design they came up with was popping, popping it out, um, just behind the bottom bracket. And our chainstay cover actually covers it until it goes. Until it goes back into the frame.

So, um, it's really, really clean. You can't, you have no idea until, you know, until you listen to the podcast or, or you pull off your chain, stay protector and realize, oh, the, the cable's external there for, you know, for a section. But yeah, I mean, those are, those are kind of some of the fun things that the engineers, the engineers are able to achieve when you're just like, Hey, this is, this is what we want, you know, go to work, make it happen.

[00:19:46]Craig Dalton: I love it. I love it. Um, let's talk about some of those other neat features that they were able to build in, into this bike, cuz I think there's a few ones that are out of the ordinary or maybe becoming ordinary, but they're, they're not on everybody's bike. Certainly if you've had it in your garage a few years,

[00:20:01]Neil Shirley: The, um, the storage, you know, uh, internal storage was, was something. It, it's not, you know, we, we didn't invent it. There are a number of, uh, brands that have done it. You know, executed it very well before we did. Uh, but I will say it took our hatch design. So basically the, uh, the water bottle cage, uh, is on a door on the down tube.

So you have a hatch, uh, hatch door that you know can. Just pulls off and then you have access to the entire down tube. Um, that whole door design took one of our engineers about six months to, to design, um, because it was one of those things like if we, we, we really wanted this feature in the frame, but it's really easy to make it a nightmare or six months down the road.

You know, it's rattling or it's just, it's not strong enough. So, so that was something we put a lot of attention into. Um, and they did a, they did a phenomenal job on it. So, uh, with, with the entire down tube is storage. I fit personally on my bike. I fit my flat tire, all the repair stuff kind of in the lower portion of the down tube.

And then the upper portion, I usually have a, you know, a thin windbreaker or, you know, you could, Jam some bars or whatever you wanted up there. So it's not like you have room for a full bike packing set up in the down tube. Um, but for the essentials, like I don't, if I'm going and doing a normal four or five or six hour gravel ride, like I have everything.

I don't even have a seat pack. So the bike looks clean, it's nothing bouncing around, it's just all contained.

[00:21:48]Craig Dalton: I love it and I'm gonna acknowledge I'm jealous. Super, super cool. And you know, I think one of the other things about that design is like, obviously you need to think about, as a frame designer, you no longer have a, a complete tube at that point. So what does that do structurally to the design? And how do you, how do you make compensations in the amount of carbon you have in that

[00:22:09]Neil Shirley: Yeah. Um, I, I don't think that. I don't, I really don't think it needed to be reinforced in any way. Um, one of the reasons we decided to kind of keep, keep it open for the whole down tube rather than adding, um, any barriers it was, was really about weight. Um, but strength-wise, structurally, uh, it, it, there wasn't additional reinforcement that needed to be added there.

[00:22:35]Craig Dalton: And are there cables going through there that needed to be protected or, you know, so your, your jacket isn't messing with

[00:22:41]Neil Shirley: Yes. Um, and we, we kind of have a really nice, uh, cable hose containment, containment system so that they don't, they don't mess with anything that you're sliding in and out. So just kind of, it, it's really all about those details because yeah, if you had, you know, wires and your, your rear brake hose flopping around in there, rattling and getting, getting caught on other stuff, it, it would be, it would be a mess.

But yeah, all those details have been minded.

[00:23:12]Craig Dalton: Nice. So let's get to some, some details on the bike, how many stock sizes are available.

[00:23:18]Neil Shirley: so we do 49, 52, 54, 56, and 58 for the gravel bike. So five sizes.

[00:23:28]Craig Dalton: Okay. And are there, are there any details that change proportionally as you go from a 49 to the largest

[00:23:35]Neil Shirley: Yeah, so kind of with our, with our background as a fork manufacturer, um, we, we really believe that, um, the fork r is, is important, so, uh, and, and different fork rs for different sizes. And so with the melee, um, we, we provide, I think we have four. Four different fork raks for the different sizes of the melee.

And for the, for the mog, we have three different fork raks, so that when you get to the, the smallest sizes, um, middle and and largest sizes, that they truly handle how they're designed. And we're not just. Getting cheap and we're, we're doing one mold for the fork and it has to accommodate the whole, the whole size, the whole size range.

So we're not, we're not kind of optimizing geometry around a 56 and then everything on either end of that is, is compromised. So that's something we're, that's something we're proud of. Um, we really think that, you know, I think most, most consumers probably don't, don't realize really what that does, but it.

For us, we're confident and when we're selling these, you know, this vast size range of bikes, that that really, the handling is we're delivering. The handling it was designed for,

[00:24:53]Craig Dalton: Yeah. You're doing it right. You're not cutting any corners. We talked a little bit about, a lot about wheel size going into as a design input and a few other things, but as you guys set off to spec the vision for this bike and who you're gonna sell it to, what kind of bike were you trying to make?

[00:25:11]Neil Shirley: Yeah, that's, uh, it is funny, you know, around the, around the launch of it or, or leading into the launch when, you know, we're coming up with the marketing materials and, you know, a bit of the story as I, I asked myself that a lot and I kind of kept coming to the. The sense that it seemed really generic in a way because we're trying to say like, this is, this is the bike for, to kind of check off all the types of riding you want to do.

Um, but at the end of the day, that's kind of where we're still coming in at because, you know, we, we have, we have a, a geometry, um, and the level of integration on the bike that it's, it's a fast, it's a, it's, it's a. It's a bike that literally could win, unbound it, you know, it could be raced at the front, you know, the pointy end of any of the biggest gravel races.

Um, and then,

[00:26:11]Craig Dalton: And I know, and I just to pin on that, I, and I know you have athletes that are expecting that

[00:26:15]Neil Shirley: Yeah. Yeah. And, and that, that was it. I mean, we, we, as a performance brand, like that's, that's a big part of our dna. And we, we do have the athletes, you know, we have Alex Verlin, you know, Whitney Allison, both, both athletes that are at the front of, you know, these fastest gravel events. So we wanted to deliver, you know, the, the tools they needed to, to be competitive.

Um, but then we added in features, uh, like the fork mounts, um, Different eyelets that if you want to use it as a, as a weekend, you know, bike packing getaway, like those are, those are kind of, when we talk about the versatility, like those are the add-on features that don't diminish the performance in any way.

It's not gonna keep you from winning any race, but you know, for. For 99% of us that use, you know, one bike or you know, one gravel bike to kind of do everything, like, it just allows you to, to do, do more with it, not, not be limited in what you want to do. So,

[00:27:21]Craig Dalton: It. I hear you. You know, it's, it, it's interesting and I appreciate your comments on it because I, I think you, you guys did deliver a bike that works across that entire spectrum. I struggle to think if you were working with Alexi and you said, Alexi, we wanna build you your dream bike.

Possibly, there's eyelets that come off, pos possibly. There's a few things on the margins that make it a a little lighter weight.

[00:27:48]Neil Shirley: But at the end of,

[00:27:48]Craig Dalton: But at the end of the day, that's such a rarefied space in gra in the gravel world, someone who just can afford to have a, a kind of a throwaway race bike that says light everywhere as it possibly could be.

That's just simply not practical for the average person who's gonna buy a

[00:28:03]Neil Shirley: yeah, exactly. And then, you know, on the, you know, the other end of it, it, it was like, you know, we didn't want to compromise, we didn't want to add additional weight in terms of like, uh, extreme arrow shaping that you, that you see on some bite on some gravel bikes. Um, compromise Ride quality. So we really tried to, to get.

You know, get the MOG to achieve. Again, everyone has their own ideas of what the, the, you know, the priorities are, but for, for us internally and working with our athletes, uh, we really, we really did look at what the priorities were and that's, you know, the MOG is a result of that.

[00:28:51]Craig Dalton: Yeah, it makes sense. It's such a great time to buy a gravel bike. Whenever I get asked by people these days, I'm like, fortunately now it's harder to go wrong. When I first started the podcast, I think one of the whole reasons I started this podcast is I did get it wrong in my first gravel bike purchase, and you were always forced to make decisions around.

I. Tire width and different things that just are non-issues today, which is wonderful.

[00:29:16]Neil Shirley: you're, you're totally right. I, I think I, I remember, you know, and you referenced it, you know, do. Building a custom bike, you know, because gravel bikes weren't on the market yet. For my first crusher in the Tusher event I did. And to think back like the, I knew what I wanted. Well it, it's, you know, I wasn't even thinking big enough cause I would've never imagined, you know, the equipment that we have today.

But I knew I wanted more at that time. And that was only 11 years ago, 12 years ago, something like that. Um, but. The, there were such limitations on what you, what you could get, you were dealing with, um, cyclocross tires, or if you went with something bigger, it wasn't Tube bliss and it was just, you know, and then if you did get, uh, uh, the actual size of tire you wanted, you were limited on the frames.

They would, they would, it would work on. So you're just compromising, you know, pretty much everywhere. And so today, like new riders getting into the market, like. It's amazing because everything there are, there is so much good equipment out there that truly is like purpose-built for gravel.

[00:30:26]Craig Dalton: Yep. Yeah, and that whole spectrum, you know, you put a pair of 32, you see tires on. An env mog, you're, you can go and do your group rides and be entirely proficient, and then you can go up to fifties and you can put the bike packing bags on

[00:30:41]Neil Shirley: Yeah.

[00:30:42]Craig Dalton: and everything in between. Nice. As, as listeners are looking to, to learn more about the bike, what, what's the best place to go and what's the shop network?

How can people find where they might be able to throw a leg over one and take a look at it more in more

[00:30:56]Neil Shirley: Yeah, so on, uh, on our website, nv e n v e.com. Uh, we have the, the MOG there, so all the, all the information if you want to read about it, you know, some of the design design elements, um, the features of the bike, it's all there. Or if you wanna just look at some cool photos of people riding MOGs. Um, but we also have a dealer locator.

Right on the website. So you can go through, um, you can select envy, you know, envy bikes, and it'll show, it'll pull up retailers, uh, near you. And, and honestly, pretty much all, you know, envy, envy ride centers, which are kind of our premium shops across the country, which I think we have about 60 of those. Um, everyone has, everyone has MOGs in stock, so yeah.

[00:31:44]Craig Dalton: And you've also doing, doing a bunch of events this year. I know I saw you guys at Sea Otter and sounds like you'll be out at Unbound at a few other

[00:31:51]Neil Shirley: Yeah, we'll be at Unbound. Um, we'll be at Crusher, uh, if anyone's interested in coming to Envy and, uh, taking part in the rodeo, our own, our own event. There are still some entries left for that as well. So

[00:32:05]Craig Dalton: Awesome. And is that in June again

[00:32:07]Neil Shirley: June 24 and 25.

[00:32:10]Craig Dalton: Awesome. And you additionally held one in Jer,

[00:32:14]Neil Shirley: Oh, yeah, yeah. Last October we did the Jero. Um, so Oh,

[00:32:19]Craig Dalton: that go?

[00:32:19]Neil Shirley: it was great. Um, anyone that's rid, have you ridden in Jer before?

[00:32:24]Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's so funny, Neil, I missed it by one week. I had a pre-planned trip and I was like, I, I caught wind on social media that you were doing the event. And I was like, I will lose my mind if the event I've already booked a ticket for coincides with the gro deal. I would love that. But unfortunately I was like a week displaced.

But to answer your question, yeah, I did a week of riding in Jer last

[00:32:46]Neil Shirley: So you, you know how special it is. I mean, whether you're, whether you're riding on the road or gravel or mountain biking or just, I mean, the, the town, you, you can't beat it. It's really like, it, it's a dream. I, uh, Told my wife, I, I might not come home, but yeah, no. So, so yeah, that was a, that was a great event.

We're doing that again this year. Um, so late, late October.

[00:33:10]Craig Dalton: Awesome. And you were teamed up with the service course. Is that one of your premier shops over there?

[00:33:15]Neil Shirley: So they did, they actually have, uh, MOGs as part of their rental fleet. So someone's going there for vacations. It's, it's a hot bed for, um, you know, cycl cycling tourists coming in. So yeah, they can, you can rent a MOG and go, go check it out.

[00:33:33]Craig Dalton: Cool. And just so it's not missed at the GRIO event in Utah, envy does an open house. They bring a bunch of frame builders in. It's just a totally magical weekend of great eye candy, great riding, great people, and a whole lot of fun. Did he try to achieve a similar kind of custom builder vibe in

[00:33:52]Neil Shirley: Yeah. Yeah, we tried to take that same model. Um, here, here in Ogden, we typically have about two dozen custom frame builders in Jerron. I think they had about, I think there were. 12. Um, mostly, mostly European focus, although we did have Argonaut in Mosaic out there as well. Um, cuz I, I mean really for a lot of us in the industry, like we just do these things as an excuse so we can go ride our bike in super cool places.

And so yeah, we had, we had some good, uh, we had some great builders out there. Um, good food killer riding, good time.

[00:34:29]Craig Dalton: Yeah, awesome. I got to see a few of the leftover custom bikes in the Service Core shop while I was there, so yeah, you guys do it right over there.

[00:34:38]Neil Shirley: Yep.

[00:34:40]Craig Dalton: Yeah, I appreciate all the time Neil. I appreciate getting back up to speed on the mog. I love how it turned out and I, while I was impatient, you guys delivered.

[00:34:49]Neil Shirley: Well, thanks Craig. And, uh, you know my number, if, if you want to jump on one and, uh, take, take some time on it.

[00:34:58]Craig Dalton: Of course, man. I hope to see you

[00:34:59]Neil Shirley: Thank you.