The Gravel Ride. A cycling podcast

🚴‍♂️ Get ready, gravel riders! In this episode of The Gravel Ride Podcast, we're joined by Andrew Vontz, a passionate podcaster (Choose the Hard Way) and OG gravel enthusiast (although he may refute this!). I asked Andrew to share his experience at the Rasputitsa gravel event, his journey discovering gravel cycling and how Choose the Hard Way came to be. 🌟 Come along as we explore Andrew's experiences at Rasputitsa, the lessons he learned during the event and how this all connects to his podcast 🏔️. Fueled by the joy of the ride, our conversation will reignite your motivation for cycling and choosing the hard way 💪.

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00]Craig Dalton: Andrew, welcome to the show.

[00:00:03]Andrew Vontz: Hey, thanks for having me here, Craig. It's great to be back together after having you over on Choose The Hard Way. It was a blast.

[00:00:10]Craig Dalton: I know I feel like we're, we're becoming fast friends and, uh, as podcasters, as contemporaries, as cyclists and how we discovered the sport and some of the cycling eras we've kind of gone through together. It's been fun. Talking to you on your podcast, which I wanna get into a bit a bit later. Um, but just sharing text messages and seeing and hearing about what you've been up to on your podcast.

Really is what sparked this conversation you had made mention in your podcast about doing Rasa in Vermont? A gravel event that I'd had on the podcast. I had to check the date. It's going back to 2018, that I had Heidi Meyers on the podcast. So it was episode 12 of the Gravel Ride podcast for anybody who's going back in the feed and wants to listen to that.

But it's an event that, you know, is super well regarded and super interesting. So long, long way of saying welcome to the show, Andrew.

[00:01:05]Andrew Vontz: Thanks for having me here. And I would say, you know, I know we're gonna get there, but I would say Rasa is definitely one of the monuments of gravel generally in the entire world and certainly here on the East Coast. And I'm excited to share a bit about how I got dragged into, into doing it and what I learned.

But you know, Yeah, I think this is the magic of the bike, right Craig? It brings people together. It, you know, you form these bonds and it, uh, it's really amazing the way communities and friendships form around the bike and the freedom it gives us and the places it takes us. And I think this is just another example of that and why I personally love the bike so much and always have.

[00:01:47]Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. I don't know if you've, you've done this event multiple times and we can get into that, but just going back to events year after year, it's kind of almost like summer camp. Where you see the same people, like maybe you have a crew that goes from your local community, but there's also the broader cycling community that you're like, oh, I rode with you.

We were at the same pace last year, and friends you make on the road or trail, it's just such an amazing part of the sport.

[00:02:12]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, absolutely. And this was my first time at Rasa and I may have mentioned this. When I had you on Choose the hard way, but I really felt like I had hit the point of kind of being retired from big gravel as I, I would call it, um, the kind of like these marquee bucket list events. And I definitely, I'll explain why when we get into it and what ended up happening when I, I got there to one of these big bucket list events.

But it was definitely an exciting and interesting experience for sure.

[00:02:43]Craig Dalton: where did you grow up and how did you find your way to the bike originally?

[00:02:47]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, I grew up in Kansas City, Missouri, and the bike found me, I didn't find the bike. Uh, a bike showed up one day. My cousins, Jason and Grady had an old Schwinn Stingray. I'm dating myself here, but it was a green sparkle, Schwinn Stingray with a sparkle banana seat, which at the time that I received this bicycle, which was a secondhand bicycle.

They just showed up one day and they're like, Hey, here's this bike for you. This is, you know, this is your bike now. It's a very exciting moment in my life when I got this bike, uh, it was not, uh, the style of bike that other kids were riding. Most kids were riding B M X bikes. This is like the era of et if anybody remembers that, like the B M X bike with ET and the basket.

Nonetheless, I was just loved the bike. I loved getting on. It. Started out like everybody else on training wheels. Then they came off. Went from there onto other bikes and then when I was about, did a lot of, you know, playing around with B M X freestyle when I was a kid, skateboarding, and then got into geared bikes in probably 1988 or 89, and then Lamont's victory at the tour in 89 really helped me to fall in love with the idea of riding geared bikes because at the time I, uh, certainly was not great at it.

[00:04:09]Craig Dalton: And how did you find your way to those geared bikes? I mean, obviously like at that point, I don't know where you are chronologically in your age, but um, you know, you have to be able to afford the bike. You have to make a decision. Am I gonna buy one of these early mountain bikes, which you start hearing about in, in the late eighties, or am I gonna get a drop bar bike?

[00:04:26]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, exactly. For me, the path to all of those things was standing behind a lawnmower and pushing it. Uh, you know, my dad got me out there in my neighborhood, not, and my mom, they were like, Hey, if you want money, if you wanna get a bike, go knock on some doors and mow some lawns. So that's what I did, and that's actually what I ended up doing for about the next decade.

I started a lawn business called The Yard Barber. Eventually my good friend Nicholas Crump, became my partner. We merged two companies. Uh, that was my first experience in m and a at a young age. And, um, yeah, but lawn mowing really is what fueled my, uh, my passion for cycling. We had a family friend, pat Twin, and she was into triathlon, which in Kansas City was a pretty bizarre thing at that time and place, but she was an early adopter.

And she took me out on one of my first rides on geared bikes. I took my mom's Shwe Morado, which was pink and had flat bars. And my dad had gotten that for my mom for Mother's Day. When I was, maybe, I'm gonna say like 11 or 12, I started riding around on this bike. I went out on a ride, uh, with Mrs. Twitter.

She graciously kind of introduced me to the world of geared bikes. And then on that ride, We came up to an intersection, I wasn't paying attention, and I rode into the back of her bike, and that was my first experience of being yelled at on a bike ride, which was totally appropriate.

[00:05:51]Craig Dalton: That's the way you learn. I definitely came up in that the school of no one's gonna give you anything when you start riding with them, and they're gonna sort of treat you with a little bit of disdain until you learn the rules of the road.

[00:06:04]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, that's certainly how it was during that time and place. And that's also, you know, how I learned how to move around in a pack and ride in a group safely and not hurt anyone, uh, or myself too badly. Only sometimes.

[00:06:18]Craig Dalton: And was there a point in which you got drawn into some sort of competitive cycling activity?

[00:06:22]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. I always, you know, ever since I saw Lamont on the shops of, in 89, I always had this fantasy of. Competing at cycling and honestly, when I was a kid and I got my, my first, my own first gear bike, which was a trek, I think it was like a Trek 400 touring bike, I soon realized, oh my gosh, this thing has three chain rings.

I'm not that cool. I have a touring bike. Then I ended up getting awin circuit, um, that I saved up lawn mowing money and purchased, which had a double crank set. Started doing some stuff with the Kansas City Bicycle Club, met some mentors and. You know, I, I would not say that I had a world tour engine Craig, but I had a lot of fun and it was just something that I always had a passion for.

I became kind of obsessed with cycling through print cycling media when I was a kid, started following that winning magazine. If anyone out there is of our vintage, they might remember that Bella News. And from there is, you know, doing a little bit of crit racing. Got into mountain biking, started doing a lot of mountain bike racing, not at your level, um, but just some amateur stuff around the Midwest.

And it's just always been a part of my life ever since. It's been like a very core part of what I do. I once heard Chris Carmichael, uh, actually I was interviewing Chris Carmichael at one point and he talked about how he thinks about the bike and training. Is like a misk plus for his life. And I thought that's like a very apt description and it's, it's really kind of how I think about it.

It kind of organizes everything else in my life and brings balance and a lot of joy and, and friendship and other benefits to me. I don't know how my family always feels about it, but you know.

[00:08:11]Craig Dalton: You cycling also played a role in some of your professional, your early professional life as well. I think it's important just to kind of set the stage with that as well.

[00:08:20]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, for sure. So, like a quick thumbnail on me professionally, I, uh, I moved to California. I moved to LA to get an MFA in creative writing. While I was doing that, I started freelancing for magazines. I quickly found my way to challenge publications located in Canoga Park, California. Uh, they had a publication called Mountain Biking.

I started working there for, I believe, $8 an hour as an intern. So that was like, Uh, that wasn't my first, uh, paycheck as a writer. My first paycheck as a writer came from Vice Magazine, which was a print publication at the time. I started working at Mountain Biking. I did that for about a year, and then I moved on to be a freelance journalist for about a decade.

Wrote for outlets like Rolling Stone, the Los Angeles Times Outside Magazine. Broadly, I wrote about people, places, and things at the limits of human experience. There was some cycling mixed in there over the years. I, I wrote about the tour to France for a couple of tours. Did daily commentary for Fox Sports on their website, and a number of other cycling related things.

But cycling wasn't the core focus, but it was always something I stayed really in touch with. I also, in LA I was really involved in. There was a community called Midnight Riders that's started taking off. It wasn't critical mass, it was more just like people getting out on bikes and having fun doing themed rides.

So I was doing that a lot for a long time. From that started with like a dozen people and I was there from like a dozen people to several thousand over the years. And then I also had a foot in the world of crit racing and doing other stuff. Later I would be the head of content at T R X, the human performance company started by Randy Hetrick, the former Navy Seal.

And then I was at Strava for seven years where I was a communications executive and oversaw media relations, public relations, crisis communications and crisis management and public policy. And um, and then I decided to leave Strava a little over a year ago. I have my podcast, choose the hard way. I'm also the co-host of Beyond the Peloton with Spencer Martin, a pro cycling analysis podcast.

And then I also do some strategic narrative consulting and advising. And I'm actually like everyone in tech, I am now working on a startup, um, with David Ls, who is a, uh, fellow executive at Strava. We're working on something we're really excited about, not quite ready to share with the world.

[00:10:50]Craig Dalton: Nice. Well, you have to come back and tell us about it at some point.

[00:10:53]Andrew Vontz: absolutely.

[00:10:54]Craig Dalton: So at some point along the way, you've, so you've discovered, uh, road riding, crit racing, mountain biking. Did, when did gravel racing come into the fold, and what type of events had you pursued previously?

[00:11:06]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. So I started, I became fascinated with gravel racing around 2005, and that's when I became aware of guitar, Ted and Jeff. Kurt Covey, who was at the time a bike shop employee in Iowa. Those guys started an event that your listeners are probably familiar with called Trans Iowa. And I thought, wow, this is just completely nuts.

And when I was growing up, I'd always heard about Rag Bri. I ended up, uh, doing Rag Bry twice. I rodee a feature story about it for Bicycling Magazine in the early two thousands. So there was always. You know, people think about the epicenters of cycling community in the United States as being Boulder, Colorado, the Bay Area.

I mean, later I would learn. Los Angeles has a pretty unparalleled cycling culture and community in my view, as well as access to such a huge variety of terrain. But the Midwest also has this huge cycling culture and, and. Has, you know, for a very long time, and this kind of like d i y ethos that Jeff and Guitars had had putting this event together, people going out and doing this thing that just seemed really inadvisable and the manner in which they were repurposing terrain that I think a lot of people think about as just kind of dull.

Uh, and turning it into something really interesting and like this Grand, grand adventure that really captivated my imagination. I wrote about that for Mountain Bike Magazine. I was a contributing editor for a while in the mid two thousands. Interviewed Jeff and then just kind of in the back of my head for the longest time.

I was like, I really want to go and try one of these things. Fast forward. I was doing whatever. I was training, I was doing a little bit of racing, and then I heard about the event that at the time was known as Dirty Kansas, and I just felt this gravitational pull. I was like, I gotta go try this thing.

I'll also tell you, Craig, I never had any interest in doing the full 200 mile version of that event. I, I know that people have a lot of passion for it, but for me that was just like the far side of something that would actually be fun. So I ended up doing the, you know, the half pint, which is advertised as a hundred, was actually about 105.

I first did that in 2013. It was amazing. It was an incredible event. I was so naive about what the event might actually be like. I over prepared. I actually had a physical compass. In my bag because it was like on, it was on the gear list. It's like you have to have a compass and lights and all this stuff.

And I was like, I don't know. Do they, are they gonna check my bag before I start? I had no idea. And so that was kind of my. First introduction to the world of Gravel. I've been doing a lot of cross racing at that time, and then I trained for that event. I went there, uh, with my then girlfriend, now wife, Molly.

She was my support at the halfway point, and she ended up waiting a very long time because, The signage was not the world's best at that time. At,

[00:14:20]Craig Dalton: But you have the compass, Andrew, you have

[00:14:21]Andrew Vontz: yeah, I know I had the compass. I should have taken it out because at mile 20, I turned left onto the 200 mile course and realized about 20 miles later I was not on the correct course.

I had to backtrack. So I had a very, you know, I think I did what, 135 or 140 miles that day. And I was like, okay, I gotta come back. And then I went back. In, uh, 20 14, 20 15. I got second in the hundred both times. And then I did a bunch of other gravel events in between the gravel gauntlet. I don't know if any of your listeners might remember that, but a Bay Area promoter, Murphy Mac had a gravel series that went on for a while.

It was quite interesting and had some pretty cool races. So yeah, that's kind of, that's how I got into gravel.

[00:15:09]Craig Dalton: I didn't realize cuz we didn't dig in this deeply that how OG you are to gravel riding. That's going back ways

[00:15:17]Andrew Vontz: It's, yeah, I be, I've been doing it for a minute. Yeah.

[00:15:20]Craig Dalton: love it. I love it. And then what, what have the, like what was last year like, had you, had you done a bunch, we'll get into like why you decided to sign up for Rasa and, but I'm curious like, have you remained active over the last year in events?

[00:15:35]Andrew Vontz: So I'm now living in mid coast Maine. I live in Hope Maine, which is a beautiful place. And one of the things that I discovered here was, uh, you know, like we were talking about at the beginning, the bike is an amazing thing. You can find community, you can find friendships, you can find some pretty amazing stuff through bicycles.

I connected with the small community of rider here, and when I say small, I, I reflect on this sometimes because when I was living in the Bay Area and commuting, when I would go from Bart to Strava, I mean Craig, I would see what, probably like 500 people on bikes easily in the two mile stretch. If I went on a group ride and or just like rolled down on my bike in Oakland or went over to Marin again, you're gonna see hundreds of people fully kitted up going out here in the mid coast area.

You know, a big group ride is about six people. Um, but I met this awesome crew here. They're great people. And that's how I discovered something called the main Gravel series, which is a small series of gravel fondos here, and they're just incredible events. And so I did that whole series last year. It was a blast.

They're not super long events, but. They're just right. I like to say that I'm a gravel sprint distance specialist now. Um, so you know, those events were all sub four hours, but they were a lot of fun. And then somebody in that small crew that I've been rolling with here a couple of months ago said, Hey, my RAs pizza entries up for grabs cuz I have to travel somewhere that week.

And I had kind of sworn off. Doing big gravel events anymore. Both things that are longer than three hours and events that have a very large number of people. I just had decided, you know what? I don't think that these things are for me anymore. And then this opportunity came up and I thought I had a couple of my buddies from here going, my friends Morgan and Jamie.

I thought, you know what, I should, I should just do this thing. So that's kind of how I got suckered back into big gravel.

[00:17:45]Craig Dalton: Got it. Were, were there some elements of big gravel that just weren't to your liking?

[00:17:50]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, I mean, even when I think back on the dirty cans of Half Pint, uh, today known as the Unbound 100. I mean, you know how it is, Craig, like the first hour of those events where you have a mass start where you're either in a pen or you're like constrained on a city street, you either have to show up two hours early and stand there until the event starts, or you have to find some way to worm your way into the spot on the grid where you want to be.

From what I understand, Unbound has changed that and they now. Similar to Leadville. I think they have pens based on what you anticipate your starting time to be. But when, I mean, when I went there in 20 14, 20 15, my intent was I want to win this race. So I just did a Davis Finney. If anybody's not familiar with Davis Finney, legendary.

American pro road racer and his big move, when he would go to crits, everyone would line up and then he would just ride the course backwards and back into the front of the grid. Uh, you know, don't try this at home folks, or maybe do, if, if you want to get a really good spot on a starting grid. Um,

[00:18:58]Craig Dalton: Yeah, you just have to be willing to accept, you know, a couple minutes of nasty looks

[00:19:03]Andrew Vontz: yeah. I mean, yeah, ex exactly. It's, uh, but anyhow, so like kind of that aspect of it and what I found. Uh, and during Unbound, gosh, just that first hour, um, at the time it was fine from a risk management point of view. I just like being that proximate to so many people on roads. You're really not that familiar with.

When you know that you're gonna be at some point. You're just gonna ride into a pothole or something, people are gonna be wrecking all over the place, and that was fine at that time and place in my life. I think as I've gotten older, now that I've got. Kids. My kids are a four and six. And now that I've thought more about like, Hey, I've got kids.

I, uh, you know, I want to whatever. I don't want to go to one of these events and get injured. I just think that that's like a bit more top of mind for me now and just like being caught in that really what seems like a very unnecessary mosh at the beginning of an event. And I, I get it. Like that's part of the excitement.

Some people really enjoy that. But for me, I, I'm just not sure if that's like the best way to run an event anymore or that I want to do that. So that was one of the factors. And then the other factor for me, uh, following Unbound 2015, I developed AFib. And again, for people who are listening, uh, if you haven't had AFib yourself, if you've done this for a really long time, I bet you know, two or three people who've had cardiac ablations.

I ended up being able to. Manage mine through non-surgical, um, means, but I just became cognizant of, okay, I have, like, at this point I have a 30 plus year, very deep training history, which has a lot of benefits for your health. And you know, part of what I discovered in 2013 to 2016, because I was racing a full, really intense cross season, probably 20 plus races a year.

Uh, racing at an elite master's level eventually, and just getting totally waxed. Um, but doing that and then putting in really big miles to get ready for unbound, I actually felt like I had crossed a tipping point and going from like, this is something that's physically healthy to, I think I'm kind of damaging my body at this point.

I need to dial it back. And so I think that was another big factor for me in gravitating more towards the gravel sprint distance and away from the, we're gonna ride our bikes for infinity.

[00:21:38]Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So as you're contemplating rasp, It's a different kind of vibe, like that's, they've intentionally tried to create something different. And I've heard from Heidi, obviously, and followed the race over the years. But I'd love to get your perspective going into it. You, you knew you didn't wanna go to a, a big time gravel event.

Maybe this had a longer distance and certainly more participants than you've been used to. But what was your expectation going in as to how the event would feel for you?

[00:22:08]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, I mean, my expectation was this is really the first event like this that I entered as a completer. Not as a computer, right? So I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to this event. I'm going to complete the event. I'm going to get to experience a new place. I hadn't been to Vermont actually, so I was like, cool, I'm gonna get to see this new place.

I'm gonna get to meet some new people. I don't know how you feel, Craig, when you go to a race, but part of what I love about it is, I mean, I'm even thinking about it right now. Like, you have such a cool bike on the wall behind you, and now I'm like, oh wow. Like, What's that chain ring that looks so cool? Is there a power meter?

Um, but I'm a total gear dork, so it's really fun for me to be around a thousand plus people, all of whom have all of these different, you know, that's like horses for courses. Just seeing like, Hey, what's everybody running? What tires do they have? All of that. So that's a lot of fun. And just being around the energy of people who.

Have decided, you know, kind of going back to the thesis of my podcast, choose the Hard Way, which is hard things. Build stronger humans and doing hard things is fun. You know, I like being around people who have that mindset and attitude and being around people who've, you know, decided I'm gonna go out and I'm gonna do this thing that's, it's gonna be fun.

And I guarantee for every person who was that event, including I Boswell and the other elite competitors, there was some moment in that day when they felt. Intensely uncomfortable and ask themselves like, what am I doing? Why am I here? But like, that's why we do this stuff, right? So I, I, for me, I just felt like it was time to like step back into the fire and, um, experience like part of the magic of what happens when people come together with the intention of doing something hard together.

[00:23:59]Craig Dalton: And was there something particular about the magic of Raspy that you had been led to understand, either through your friends or through research that, uh, made you more excited than just going out on a bike race?

[00:24:10]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, I mean I had definitely heard a lot about the vibe. My friends, uh, Jamie Morgan, Greg, they had all done the event in previous years, and yeah, they said, Hey, like the vibe of this event is great, really strong community feel. Really supportive. Bobby from the mid-south also. Now I, I don't know if they've always worked together, but they're working together in this coordinated manner.

And, um, yeah, so those things were all things that jumped out at me as signatures of an event that would be a lot of fun and. Where the vibe would be good. And, uh, and the course itself I knew was pretty brutal. I, I'm a larger human being. I'm six two and depending on what my relationship with ice cream is, like at any period of time, I'm typically between like 180 or 190 pounds.

I'm not, I'm not particularly built for going uphill for long periods of time. And this race has. 7,200 feet of climbing. So I was like, perfect. This will be really hard for me to do and I'll train hard for it, and we'll see how that goes. So that appealed to me as well,

[00:25:19]Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's interesting. A little under 60 miles, but 7,000 plus feet of climbing is climbing all over the place on that course as it would sound.

[00:25:28]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, it's, it's infinity climbing and they're, you know, kind of a wild card for me. When I do gravel loops locally, like I actually did one not long before this, uh, before this podcast where I live, it's glaciated train and there are small mountains and you are not riding on a flat road for any period of time.

So you're always going up or down. And you know, it would be typical here, like the main gravel series to do four or 5,000 feet of climbing and two and a half to three hours. So there's a lot of climbing where I live. What I didn't know with raspy ti, I didn't, I mean, I could have looked online and figured this out, but I was kind of in, in an ignorance's bliss kind of mindset about this.

But the amplitude of the climbs was much greater and. Uh, for anybody who's listening, who's in the Bay Area, I used to do a ton of training on my cross bike, then gravel bike in the Marin Headlands. I don't know if this is the correct name of the trail, but it might be Marin Cello. Is that a really long climb?

And yeah. So I used to go do like LT repeats on that thing. And uh, one day, I believe it was in 2017, I was listening to Phil Collins. I can hear, I can feel it coming in the air tonight. I still remember the track going down, just like bombing down that after doing an interval, I felt so cool, Craig. I was like, my gravel descending is like so dialed in now I'm really comfortable.

And that of course was the moment that I, my bike like, went completely out from under me while going around a, a turn at like 30 miles an hour, ripped off most of my right knee. Was gushing blood and then had to ride back home to the inner sunset at the time. But that kind of changed my personal relationship with being comfortable going downhill fast on gravel.

So I knew going into rasa it's like, okay, 7,200 feet of climbing, I'm not so sure about. What is the descending going to be like? And then once I got there, I found out.

[00:27:44]Craig Dalton: Yeah, and I want that's in, I want to get into those details cause I think that's so useful for others. But I wanna start out with like the beginning of your day. You, you know, you had expressed that this was gonna be a bit longer of an event than you had done previously. So a little bit of like potential anxiety for like, you know, can I step up to this longer distance?

But you've also said you're not going in there at a mindset of being competitive. You're just wanting to, to finish the day and have a good time. Did that change the way you kind of showed up in the morning? Were you as like dialed as before or were you not?

[00:28:20]Andrew Vontz: Uh, Craig, in some fantasy world, I would be really calm the morning of doing a big event. Uh, the reality of it for me is, Uh, my fitness was really fantastic going into the event, and as I got closer to the event and was looking at, you know, my wattage and analyzing my performance, I started to feel like, wow, I think I can go pretty fast at this event.

I, I just had this feeling, you know, I think I can go pretty quick, and that started to amplify my expectations of what the event. Might be like, and then when I was going to the event, for some reason Google Map sent me off-road for the final 20 miles going into Burke. And that's when I realized, oh, these downhills are going to be way gnarlier than I thought they would be.

And again, for a lot of people, it's probably whatever they might feel super comfortable going downhill on gravel at high speeds. But because of that wreck I had, I just don't feel that comfortable doing that anymore, and I knew like, yeah, I'm just here to complete this. But also I was feeling this tension of, yeah, but I think I'm in really good shape.

The long and short of it is I ended up not getting a good night of sleep. I woke up and I was, you know, nonetheless, my equipment was dialed, my nutrition was dialed. I was ready to go. And that's when I texted my buddy Jamie, who was up in the parking lot at the event I had misread. The event schedule. And he was like, Hey man, what time are you coming up here?

And I was like, oh, I think I'm gonna come up around eight. Because him and my buddy Morgan had gone up there at like six 30 in the morning. I was like, you guys are crazy. You're just gonna sit around up there. And Jamie was like, that's cool man. But the race starts at eight, so you like just gonna jump in when it comes down to hell.

So, and I had just eaten a pile of pancakes, so I was like, all right, I guess I'm leaving right now. And then I just got on my bike. And pedaled up the hill to the start. And that's, you know, that was how my day started. So the, the morning was a little, I wanted it to be chill and it turned out to be a little bit anxious.

[00:30:35]Craig Dalton: Did you get swept up in the start? You know, everybody sort of, you tend to ride above your means when it starts, regardless of your discipline.

[00:30:44]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. The reality for me was I had gotten such a bad night of sleep. I honestly, I think I slept like 45 minutes or an hour, and for me, that's not super uncommon the night before doing a big event, I just typically don't sleep that well. It's been interesting on my podcast to talk to a lot of different elite athletes.

Some of them like Alexi Vermin, who I know you've interviewed, he shared with me. I mean, if you watch Alexi's videos, he's like tinkering on his bike at midnight the night before a race. He's like, yeah, you know, I, I typically, my sleep's not awesome. Then I've had other people on who are like, yeah, I sleep 10 hours a night before a race, so I'm more in the, I'm typically not getting a ton of sleep.

But that morning I woke up and I was so exhausted that I actually called my wife and I was like, Hey, you know what? I didn't sleep at all last night. I, I don't really know how I feel about doing this. And then my kids in the background were like, you gotta do it Ted. So I was like, okay, I guess, I guess I'm doing the event.

Um, so like once I got to the start, uh, the way the start is at this race, which I think this is very important information, I couldn't find it online. So you're not actually in a pen. You're in this giant parking lot at Burke Mountain. I think it's the lodge, so it's like the lower part of the mountain. So it's a giant dirt parking lot.

And I was able to just kind of slot in from the side where I wanted to position myself. And the tricky thing about the start, so it um, they do have a race vehicle that leads the race out, but you're on a dirt road in a parking lot and. got there, I would say like a half hour before the event, they started lining up.

I got there about 20 minutes before I slotted in where I wanted to. The event starts, you go a couple hundred yards on this dirt road, you turn left, and then it's a. Downhill. Um, both lanes are blocked, so they're at that point the course is close and you go, you descend a couple a hundred feet and less than a mile.

So you're going at a very high speed in a group of 500 people. And you know, I don't know what everyone else did over the winter here in the northeast, but this was. For me the third time I had been on a bicycle outside in six months. So you know, I've gone from swift to I'm, you know, elbow to elbow with 500 people going, going down a hill like 45 miles an hour.

And then at the bottom of that hill it's a hard left onto a dirt road. And then that's the first kind of sorting out of the day. Uh, but that was not my favorite thing in life, to go down that descent. Even in a relatively controlled manner.

[00:33:40]Craig Dalton: Yeah, I can only imagine. It's just like get your heart rate go. You don't want your heart rate to be pumping that much when you're just going downhill. Slightly terrified of what could happen around you as anything could with with that many people. Elbow to elbow and then turning into a dirt corner sounds like a recipe for disaster.

[00:33:58]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, not my favorite thing in the world. And like any road in the Northeast after winter, lots of just, you know, there are potholes, there's stuff that you can't see which anybody listening to this who does gravel events, you're used to that. The difference is, Like you're moving pretty quick when you go down this hill.

But again, for some people that's just whatever. For me, it's, it's not my favorite thing to do on a bike. But then once we got to the bottom of the hill, turned left, and then it was just full gas for the next probably three miles. So there's a really nice long climb with some really quite steep pitches right out of the gate that really starts to sort things out.

[00:34:39]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yep. And then it starts to spread out a little bit and you can find smaller groups.

[00:34:44]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, exactly.

[00:34:46]Craig Dalton: And are you, are the roads just sort of wide dirt roads at that point?

[00:34:51]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. So if anybody has done unbound or if you've ridden in California's Central Valley, Those roads. So like Midwest gravel, you're gonna get generally chunkier, gravel, looser gravel. Gravel you might sink. In West Coast, it's a bit different. It's more, you know, I, I know there's a variety of styles of gravel on the West coast, but it tends to be more hard packed dirt or gravel roads.

These roads were quite compact. It had rained quite a bit prior to the event. The research that I had done. Range from, Hey, it'll be a complete mud fest if it rains, because they used to have a five mile quote unquote cyclo cross section in the race. And I'll get to that because there was a, a surprise that was not in the G P X file that they had provided to participants in the race.

And I also had read, Hey, don't worry about rain. The roads drain really fast. And if it. If it rains, it's just gonna be harder packed and dry. I know people are also probably wondering about tires. I asked around quite a bit. I also recently had Dylan Johnson on my podcast and he of course is at the forefront of the whiter is Better Movement.

Uh, I personally, for this event, I ran forties. I ran Pelli. Hs. I, yeah, I think it's like the hard pack Perelli tire. They've got a bit of side knob, but fast rolling. That was an excellent tire choice. I would recommend something like that, whether it's going to be wet or dry, cuz that's going to shed mud. If it's muddy and if it's dry, it's like the perfect tire.

Something like that. So something with um, You know, either a smooth or a semis slick center knob, and then maybe a bit of edge because there is a lot of high speed downhilling. But the course itself, for the most part was pretty hard packed. But then there was, this was just like classic, lots of marly loose stuff in places you might not want it to be.

Right. Which I'm describing every gravel race ever. Um, but yeah. And then there were only a handful. There were a handful of short sections. That had fresh, just like fresh rocks dumped on them much later in the course. Um, but I think that was, uh, that was abnormal from what I could tell. I don't know why that they had just freshly dumped rocks on the road there, but for the most part, pretty hard packed.

Yeah.

[00:37:26]Craig Dalton: And then what, what was the unexpected section of the

[00:37:29]Andrew Vontz: Oh wow. Um, so the unexpected section of the course, it was probably around mile. I'm guessing it was like mile 47. And I, I also will say that the course had excellent signage. This course had the best signage of any event I have ever participated in. I don't know what your experience has been, but I just expect that in a hundred percent of events like this I participate in, I'm going to get totally lost at some point, or a sign will be pointing the wrong way or whatever.

It actually didn't happen this time, uh, which, which was amazing. I got to this one section and I was fo, I knew I was following the signs that had said a hundred k course go this way. I turned and then I started to get the, you know, the dreaded off course notification on my garments. I'm like, okay, what's going on?

There are people here? I think this is the right way, maybe not. And then I quickly kind of deduce was like, okay. Then it channeled us onto. Some double track and single track that was just really sloppy, relatively deep mud. And I don't know if that was not included in the G P X file on purpose as kind of a surprise to participants or what the deal was, but that was about a three, three and a half mile section with a lot of single track.

And I don't, I, I guess it's just the nature of the soil in this one section that it was actually like quite thick. Mud and, you know, I was like, great, I can ride in muddy single track. I've done a ton of cyclo cross. This is kind of fun. Um, and then there were a couple of sections in there where it made more sense to get off and just like push through a couple of stream crossings and stuff.

It wasn't a big deal. It was nothing like what I'd read online about. I, I don't know if this was like the historic, horrible slug through the mud that I'd read about. It didn't really seem like that. It seemed kind of fun.

[00:39:33]Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think, if I'm not mistaken, RAs says a Russian word for sort of spring mud,

[00:39:38]Andrew Vontz: Yes. Yeah.

[00:39:40]Craig Dalton: like it would be off brand if they didn't have mud there for you to some degree.

[00:39:43]Andrew Vontz: well, they had it. They had it. And, uh, it was a, that was like a nice little reprieve because other than the descents, which were long, some of them were very high speed. Other than that, it's like you were climbing the entire day, right? You're either climbing a long climb or you're going down a pretty gnarly descent.

And then some weather was blowing in in like the final two hours of the race. So once we were on some open stretches, cuz there were a couple small stretches of road there, there's pretty serious head crosswinds. So this little downhill dive into the mud was like a nice respite. And then the race finishes.

With a very, to me, I mean by Marin standards, it's just like whatever, it's another write up railroad grade, but it was like quite a long climb at the finish of the race with some pretty steep sections.

[00:40:35]Craig Dalton: Were you able to stick together with riders for some time? I know it's often challenging when you got climbing and descending as people have different skillset sets, but what was your experience?

[00:40:44]Andrew Vontz: My experience was I started the day and then I continued to go backwards the entire day.

[00:40:50]Craig Dalton: That's a strategy I often employ

[00:40:52]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. Yeah. And um, I, I, you know, it's interesting cuz I had done some really hard training rides, almost a full distance of this race. But at mile 40 for me, the wheels just completely came off. And I started to get those like full leg cramps where you're like, Oh, I think my abductors and hamstrings are going to tear off the bone if I don't get off my bike right now.

So I was that guy on the side of the road and then I did a lot more walking than I've actually done in any event, which again, I went to this event to challenge myself and do something I don't normally do, and I got that challenge.

[00:41:36]Craig Dalton: Yeah. And yeah. And ultimately you made it to the finish line, right?

[00:41:39]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, totally. Yeah. I made it to the finish line. I did.

[00:41:42]Craig Dalton: Awesome. And what, what was greeting you at the finish line? What kind of experience did they have there?

[00:41:48]Andrew Vontz: Um, so at the finish line, it finishes at a hotel of, uh, lodge thing that's higher up on the mountain and giant crowd of people and. Really nice finishing shoot the mood. You know, I, it was a bit more subdued than I had anticipated. It being based on what I had read about the event and had seen described in the media, uh, from what I gathered.

Shortly after finishing a writer was killed on course, and by the time that I finish. I think that they, they had more or less shut it down. Um, and I don't know if they were pulling writers from the course or what was going on, and my, one of my friends was like, Hey, somebody got killed today. There was a statement on social media from the organizers about that, and I think that, you know, understandably, it was a much more somber mood than I think it might have typically have been at the finish.

[00:42:47]Craig Dalton: That makes sense. I also read about that tragic news and, and such a tough loss for that cycling community. For sure.

[00:42:53]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:42:55]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. I mean, I appreciate that overview of the race. Like it's, ever since I had Heidi on the show in episode 12, it's always been one that had had sort of just tickled my fancy because I, I, I, I feel like they've, Purposely kept the event weird and they kept it on point and on brand for them.

They're not trying to make this a full-time vocation. They're just trying to put on a great event for the community that represents their values, which all the evidence I've seen over the years is they hold those values close and strong, which I appreciate.

[00:43:30]Andrew Vontz: Yeah, absolutely. And I didn't mention this. But they did have, there were a number of, um, you know, in tech, I can't believe I'm using like corporate nomenclature, but like, we would call these like surprise and delight moments, right? So like when you're out on the course, you come around the corner and you know, there's a dance party with people in costumes, stuff like that.

And then of course the classic like, Hey, people giving you bacon or tons of people out there on the side of the road. With coolers full of beer if you wanna stop and drink a beer. Um, you know, so there's, there's a lot of fun stuff like that that's going on. And then following the event, they had a grunge themed party afterwards.

Grunge is back. Everybody. If in case, in case you haven't been sticking with it for the last, um, 25, 30 years, grunge is back. It's big, it's big here in the Northeast. So yeah, there was a lot of, uh, there was a lot of fun stuff. I also feel like Craig, I would be remiss. If I didn't address the conundrum, I know everyone will have planning for this event as they do for all events.

So there's no outside support allowed. They have three water and aid stations on the course. They're not car accessible. Um, so you have to make that decision of what is my hydration strategy? Am I running a pack? Or am I going with bottles? I would say the chorus is definitely smooth enough that running bottles is fine if you don't mind stopping and taking time to refill your bottles or do mix.

Uh, the guys I rode with Morgan and Jamie, they both ran. Pack and then one bottle. So kind of depending on your finishing time and whether you're just there to have a, a chill, you know, a chill ride with 7,200 feet of climbing or, or you wanna try to finish as quickly as possible. You kind of have to do that calculus.

If you want to go really fast, I would say wear a pack and bring a bottle and that's probably gonna be enough if you can finish and sub three hours and 30 minutes. Um, for me, I ended up doing four bottles. And yeah, I stopped at the 35 Mile aid station to refill my bottles cuz I was a, I was a completer.

[00:45:44]Craig Dalton: I can't resist that stopping. And if you wanna know about the aerodynamics of Camelback wearing, you can watch one of Dylan Johnson's recent great videos, which you may have covered on your podcast.

[00:45:54]Andrew Vontz: I, I think that may have come out after we did the episode, but yeah, that was pretty interesting and in line with what I've seen previously, I think, I mean, that's why they're banned in road racing because they're so aerodynamic.

[00:46:08]Craig Dalton: I do wanna touch on the podcast just real quickly. I know we're getting press on time, but can you talk about the Choose the Hard Way podcast and what was your vision when starting it? I know talking to cyclists and, and cycling personalities is only a small component of it, but I'd love for you just to talk about the broader goal of it, cuz I think it's such a fascinating topic that resonates super strongly with me.

[00:46:31]Andrew Vontz: Uh, awesome. I'm glad to hear that Craig. And I hope that, um, if people enjoyed this podcast and you like doing things like going and doing gravel events, I think you would dig the show and I invite you to come check us out. You can find [email protected] and we're on all listening platforms and on social at Hardware Pod.

The origin of the show for me. Was when I was a communications executive at Strava. I loved what I was doing. I was deeply passionate about it and grateful that I got to do it, and I've really, really missed certain parts of what I got to do as a journalist. And the thing I missed the most was just the opportunity that I had to get to spend time with some of the world's most talented, highest achieving people, and more specifically, a learning that I had from my time as a journalist early on.

Um, was just that some of the world's most talented, most successful people face the same struggles, moments of self-doubt as everybody else. And I know that there's a lot of talk about authenticity and so forth these days, and I just don't feel like a lot of stories are actually getting told that, um, are truly unfiltered and really give you a look at what does it actually take.

To do things at the highest level in different disciplines. So the purpose of the show was, I'm just a deeply curious person, and this was an area of curiosity that I wanted to pursue. I wanted to become I, at that point in time, I bet I'd done more than 500 if not a thousand interviews as a journalist with different sources for different stories, and I just wanted to keep.

Getting better at being an interviewer and to do something in a completely different format because what we do here, what I do on my podcast, it, it's somewhat similar to what you might do as a journalist, but everything about it is actually completely different. So I had to learn a whole new skill set, and I just really valued getting to share these stories with as many people as possible just based around this idea that.

You know, hard things build stronger humans and that doing hard things is fun. Which ironically I started the show in 2018 and since then I bet there have been no less than half a dozen books and businesses started around like this whole idea of like do hard things, et cetera, which is cool. I think it's awesome.

The more people embrace that kind of mindset, the better. And what I like doing on my show is, is getting people at the top of their game on and. Just learning more about like, Hey, what does it actually take to do that? What has the path been and where do they want to go?

[00:49:18]Craig Dalton: Yeah, I love it. Thanks for that Andrew. Everyone go out and subscribe to that podcast. Give it a listen. As I said, start, if you wanna go easy, start with the cycling ones. You get the flow, you get into it and then dip into that deeper catalog cuz you, you've got a lot of great guests on the show.

[00:49:34]Andrew Vontz: Thank you.

[00:49:35]Craig Dalton: Yeah. Cool.

Well thanks for all the time. I appreciate, uh, a, getting to know you in the course of recording on your podcast. B, just getting to know your experience as a cyclist. I knew we would sort of, our histories would align the way I afforded. My first spikes were, were painting houses, so you were pushing, I was swiping paintbrushes on houses.

[00:49:59]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. Yeah. One of my, Craig, one of my least favorite jobs that I ever had was scraping paint, so I hope that you got to focus on painting and not

[00:50:07]Craig Dalton: Oh, the scraping was the worst. I

[00:50:09]Andrew Vontz: Oh, it's so bad.

[00:50:10]Craig Dalton: they sell you on the painting and then you learn that you have to scrape in order to paint,

[00:50:15]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. That's kind of like the rest of life, right?

[00:50:19]Craig Dalton: if you know, you know.

[00:50:21]Andrew Vontz: Yeah.

[00:50:22]Craig Dalton: With that, I'll let you go, Andrew. Have a great night and we'll talk again soon.

[00:50:26]Andrew Vontz: Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, and I look forward to us catching a ride when I'm out in the Bay Area.

[00:50:31]Craig Dalton: Cheers.

[00:50:32]Andrew Vontz: Thank you.

Hey listeners! Are you a bike enthusiast always looking for better products to improve your riding experience? Then you don't want to miss this latest episode featuring Pius Kobler, founder of milKit.

Pius Kobler's passion for cycling started during his childhood in Switzerland where he grew up riding bikes and joining his family on biking holidays. He studied mechanical engineering at university in Zurich, and his love for biking took him on various long-distance rides and expeditions, including one from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego.

Pius worked for a design bureau that provided product development and design services for companies in the bike industry, such as Scott and BMC. Then, during a bike trip across the US, he got a flat tire in Colorado due to the dried-out tubular tires caused by the heat. This incident inspired him to create milKit, a company that offers a tire sealant solution that allows cyclists to check the amount and quality of the sealant inside their tires.

The importance of maintaining the sealant in tubeless bikes is emphasized; still, many bike owners neglect to check their sealant levels regularly. Pius came up with a valve system with a rubber foot that allows the air pressure to remain in the tire when checking the sealant levels. The technology allows for easy maintenance of tubeless bikes and prevents sealant from spilling out. But it doesn't end there! Pius also created the GTA Booster, a portable aluminum drinking bottle that helps push the tire bead out to the side and secure it in place. The booster delivers more air in one second than a compressor and is efficient in changing and installing new tires.

But that's not all; milKit's product line now includes additional consumables like rim tape and sealant that have unique features making them an essential tool for all bike enthusiasts. The company has also released a multi-tool with storage compartments for the plugs and other functions like a chain breaker. The latest trend in bike segments is having quick and easily accessible solutions, and Milk Kit has developed a solution in a compact way. The kit is super light and can be strapped to the bike or screwed to the frame.

Craig Dalton had a pleasure talking to Pius Kobler, who designed milKit systems with thought behind them. Don't miss this exciting episode - tune in now to hear all about Pius Kobler and his innovative products!

Visit milKit online

Episode Sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use code: thegravelride)

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the show. We welcome Swiss-based founder and rider PS cobbler to the show to talk about his company. Milk it. And the system they've developed. Around tubeless tires and a brand new product that they've created.

To support that system in the form of a multi-tool. I happened to meet PS on the trail, on a group ride. I went on. Last week as he was in town for seawater classic. And we got to chatting about his entrepreneurial journey and his rider first perspective of design. And I thought it'd be great to have him on the show. And I was fortunate to grab him on a Friday night over in Switzerland.

To talk more about the company and the company's journey and some of the products I know you'll get value out of being aware of. I encourage you to check out some of the links on the show notes as some of the nuances of the product design, maybe best seen in a video. If you're watching the video of the podcast, you'll see PS reference and hold some of his products in his hands.

As part of the conversation, but detailed videos are available on the website, which is over at milk it's dot bike. Before we jump in, I do need to thank this. Week's sponsor hammerhead, hammerhead, and the crew to computer have been longtime sponsors of the show. As you know, The crew too, is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today with industry leading mapping navigation, routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS options out on the market.

Over the course of my conversation with PS, we talk a lot about rider oriented design hammerhead, and the team over a crew to definitely take that perspective. And they're constantly. Updating their products with bi-weekly software updates. There's nothing cooler to me on the hammerhead crew to then.

Getting that notification. That a software updates available because I know they're adding things. That are going to be of interest to me. Whether it's today or down the line. One of the biggest updates I received that I love is the climber feature, which has predictive path technology. Which basically shows you what's ahead of you on a climb.

While that may not necessarily be important on your daily routes for me when I'm doing an event or I've borrowed a route from someone that I've never done before. I'd love. Knowing is this a short, punchy climb ahead of me? Or do I really need to settle in for a longer climb? For a limited time offer our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead crew to simply visit hammerhead.io right now, and use the promo code, the gravel ride.

At checkout to get yours today, this is an exclusive limited time offer. So don't forget to use the promo code. The gravel ride.

Simply add that heart rate monitor, strap to your purchase cart. When you're checking out on the e-commerce system. At hammerhead.io, use the promo code. The gravel ride and that heart rate monitor will be yours for free. With that said let's jump right into my conversation with ps cobbler

PS welcome to the show.

[00:03:39] Pius Kobler: Thank you.

[00:03:40] Craig Dalton: You have the honor of being our first Swiss guest,

[00:03:43] Pius Kobler: Oh, I'm very honored. Yeah.

[00:03:46] Craig Dalton: and how cool was it that we got to ride together

[00:03:48] Pius Kobler: how cool

[00:03:49] Craig Dalton: prior to recording?

[00:03:50] Pius Kobler: other like three days later across an ocean? Yeah.

[00:03:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I love it. You know, I'd, I, as I mentioned to you on that ride, I'd been familiar with the, the Milk IT brand and some of the products specific to the, the Tire Sealant solution, um, for a number of years. But I'm, I'm curious to kind of just step back and learn a little bit about. More about you and then the formation of the company.

Cuz as the listener of this podcast knows, like, I'm super keen on the entrepreneurial ideas and, and journey as an entrepreneur myself. So let's start off by kind of where you grew up and how you discovered the bike. And then we'll get into how you decided to form this company.

[00:04:28] Pius Kobler: Yeah. Yeah. I grew up in Switzerland and I was always a cyclist, like I cycled to school. What's that? Um, 12 miles every day. Two ways. So, so when I was 14 or so, so yeah. And then with my family, we always went on bike trips in holidays. I, I, I literally grew up on bikes more or less. But then man, biking came quite late.

I, I, I started Mecca Mechanical Engineering at, um, et h Zurich here. And after studying, I. Um, took my recumbent and rode it from Alaska to Te del Fugo for one and a half years. So I've been cycling a bit.

[00:05:09] Craig Dalton: You spent some time on a bike. I see.

[00:05:11] Pius Kobler: Yeah, I was, I was in in the Bay Area earlier already passing through. Yeah. And,

[00:05:19] Craig Dalton: That's interesting. You know it's funny when you even mentioned the word recumbent as a style of bicycle. That's in my mind, that's such an engineering type vehicle. Why did you choose to tour on that?

[00:05:30] Pius Kobler: the perfect nerd in personification, uh, that you can have sometimes as in the US it was most fun. We were getting off recumbent and people go, oh, but you are not handicapped. Why would you, why are you riding one of these?

[00:05:47] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And, and not, not, and not to derail the conversation too much, but is, is it from an engineering perspective, is riding a recumbent sort of mechanically or aero aerodynamically better for long distances than other style bikes

[00:06:02] Pius Kobler: There is no, no doubt. No.

[00:06:05] Craig Dalton: Really?

[00:06:05] Pius Kobler: so much for long distances. There is no discussion actually, but nobody knows and, and everybody thinks that they can't be good because then more people will be doing it. You, you don't have any. Pain in your wrists, neck, uh, butt. Wherever you, you have a relaxed sitting position.

You have a third less wind drag. You have several of these advantages. You have a lower, um, center of gravity. You have a much better curve stability. You have a longer wheel base, more stability. But then the main, the main factor for me is, You are, you have a completely different way of sitting on the bike.

It's not, you're not sitting like this and staring on the road in front of you. You're sitting like this open, you like, like on a couch riding through the countryside. You know, it's for traveling by far the best. But I would never use it in a city or so, like daily life. I don't have one. You know, I, I sold it after I traveled.

[00:07:03] Craig Dalton: That's so interesting yet. So off topic for this podcast.

[00:07:07] Pius Kobler: Yeah, this was the perfectly wrong start for this, for this episode.

[00:07:11] Craig Dalton: Right. And then, you know, I feel like now there's this, uh, potential that a listener isn't imagining you being some nerdy bike nerd on a recumbent yet. My interaction with you was on a mountain bike where you tackled every complicated shoot that we came in front of on Mount

[00:07:30] Pius Kobler: rich in Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly.

[00:07:34] Craig Dalton: Great. Okay, so we, we've, we've established engineering degree. We've established you spent a lot of time on a bike. This is a big leap, leap before, you know, between getting an engineering degree and obviously looking at bicycles from a mechanical engineering perspective, and then starting a company. What was the journey like to that point?

[00:07:55] Pius Kobler: Yeah, basically when I came back, I, I haven't, I haven't done kind of performance cycling. It was always holiday or, or work or whatever, traveling. But when I came back, I was in, in okay shape, let's say, and a body of mine was in man biking. So I joined him for some longer rides. And that's how I got into man biking only after I did that trip.

And, um, Basically I, I started working, that's the coincidence that led to things. I started working in a, in a company that, it's a design bureau, you could say it's a, they, they do product development and design as a service for large companies. We, you could say we were professional inventors, uh, uh, and we were, we were developing products.

For many companies in the bike industry as well. Like we were working for Scott for B m c, for, for these brands here in Switzerland among others. And we were, um, a group of bikers in that company. So one thing led to another and, and what made the. The, the deciding point for for to go into tubeless was basically a, a bit later, after that long trip, I, I had the chance to take an unpaid leave for eight weeks and.

Go to the us, buy a van and drive it from one I M b A epic ride to the other for eight weeks, which was amazing. I might have ridden more trails in the US than most Americans, you could say. Here.

[00:09:31] Craig Dalton: I bet you have.

[00:09:32] Pius Kobler: Yeah. No, that that was really, really good. But the not so smart part about it is W we were going to Colorado and Utah in July, which is not the right moment.

It's like 120 degrees or so over there. So we was a bit warmer that than we were used to. And. We ended up with a flat because our tubeless tires were completely dried out because it was so warm. And so I, I'm in the middle of nowhere, somewhere on the continental divide in Colorado with that dried out tire, putting a tube in what everybody hates when you write tubeless, you know, to take the whole thing apart and put the tube in.

And that's when I, when I, when I. Started thinking, you know, I had few weeks more to go and which means a lot of time to think and, and I said, wait, if I'm me as a bike freak and, and, and tech developer, like, if I have this problem of, of not being able to maintain my steel and I should other people do it, you know,

[00:10:37] Craig Dalton: And when you thought about that problem, p was it, it was, if I'm articulating this correctly, the problem was you just weren't aware of the level of sealant that was remaining in the tire.

[00:10:49] Pius Kobler: I had no idea. I had no idea that it was just drying up faster because it was a bit warmer, you know?

[00:10:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I and I, and I encourage, like everyone listening right now, think about your bike, think about the sealant, and think if you have any idea whether there's enough sealant in there or not. I can guarantee looking around my garage right now, I would say 80% of the bikes I have. They have to be bone dry.

It's like without a question, but I don't know. And I'm a bit lazy to find out, right? Like, it's like if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But to your point, you get out there and you have the situation where sealant is a godsend, right? It steals that hole and it's not there. That's that. That's a problem.

[00:11:35] Pius Kobler: Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's basically we say if you split up bikers into people that ride tubeless and don't, then the ones who are ride tubeless, you can basically split them up into the ones who know that you have to maintain it and the ones who don't know and find it out a bit later. And then the ones who know how to maintain.

They have to maintain it. Um, a good part of those things. Yeah. I'm always feeling a bit sealed in and it's fine, but the not, not so big part know that they should look at what, in what's inside. Like they should check the old sealant or get it out before they push in the new ones or you have a, a really good working sealant in there and, and yeah,

[00:12:19] Craig Dalton: Yeah. So you, you sort of recognize, you recognize this problem, which when you articulated is pretty obvious, I think, to us. All right, we, no one wants to look inside their tires. What's the solution? How do you go about solving that problem?

[00:12:33] Pius Kobler: Yeah, that, that was, uh, as, as often in product development. It, it was a step by step process where, where first we had the idea we need to drill a second hole into the rim to somehow look in there and then, Refill through the valve, and then eventually we, no, we are not gonna have a second hole. We have to make it through the hole that's already there.

So eventually we were going through the valve, but then we still had a, because the, the first thing you think about is a dipstick. You know, you need to, to go in and check the sealant, and then you fill and then, By coincidence, like by using it, by having prototypes realized weight. And, and maybe at this point I should explain the, the whole valve.

Basically what we do is we have a normal tubeless valve, uh, that you install into the rim like any tubeless valve. But at the, at the bottom, the. At the bottom of the rubber foot, the, the, the rubber is closed and it's slid into, into rubber flaps. So when you unscrew the valve core, the, the air stays in the tire because these rubber flaps at the bottom are closed.

And now we have, uh, we have a syringe, kind of a syringe and needle with a, with a flexible extension. And, and the sealant regulator that you connect together.

[00:13:53] Craig Dalton: Let's take a pause for one second PS and just so the listener understands. So if you can imagine that your normal valve core for tubeless, you've got a, a, a, a section that is inside the rim and obviously the section you see outside the rim and what you've described and shown to people who are on the video, you've got sort of on that inside piece, a rubber gasket that its natural state is to be closed.

So if you're not pushing air or something else through it, Nothing's coming back through it. No air's coming back through it, et cetera. And then you've,

[00:14:26] Pius Kobler: the ketchup bottles, you know, you have to ketchup bottles that have these, these, these flaps on the top. That's a, that's the function. More or less we have,

[00:14:34] Craig Dalton: I love it. I love it. Take taking a, a commonplace design concept and putting it in something technical on the bike. So then you just, you just had picked up the syringe and you knows some people are used to using just sort of their bottle of sealant and pouring it directly into the tire. Some years ago, I started adopting the syringe for more precise measurement and the ability to insert through the valve core.

It's possible in a standard valve cord to do that, but it's kind of difficult in, in a number of ways, which I think you'll get into in describing the value of having that seal on the inside of the valve and how that interacts with the sort of plunger, if you will. I don't know if that's gonna be the right term that's attached to the syringe.

[00:15:22] Pius Kobler: yeah. Like the wording is we, we, the, the part inside the, the inside the tire. Inside the rim, we call it the rubber foot. And then you have the, the, the aluminum part, uh, that you screw onto the rim, that's the valve stem. And then you have the valve cord that goes into the valve stem. And we removed the valve core.

And the air is still the, the, the, the. The tire remains pressurized because the rubber flaps are closed. And now the trick is that with this needle here that we have connected to the syringe, you can push through the rubber flaps into the tire with the air pressure still being in the tire. That's the, the core of our technology because now you with the needle, you go to the bottom of the tire, the sealant has accumulated at the bottom of the tire, and, and now basically all you have to do is you open the sealant to regulator.

And the, the, the air pressure in the tire is pushing the sealant into your syringe. You don't even have to suck it out. It's, it's pushing out, it's, it's automatically flowing into your syringe

[00:16:24] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that was a point you had made to me on the trail the other day, which was the aha moment for me. Cuz when you first described the mechanism, I was like, oh, that's great. You know, you. You push the syringe kind of legs into that, the bottom of your tire, and you can touch the sealant. But that nuance there that since you've left the air in the tire, you have air pressure, which you can then draw out the, the sealant into the tube with the air pressure pushing it effectively into the syringe, and you can see the exact measurement of what remains in the tire at that point.

[00:17:01] Pius Kobler: And the main reason, back in the days when we invented this, the main reason why it was important to to, to have the pressure remain in the tire is when you release the air from the, uh, from the tire back then the tire would fall back into your rim, you know, and then you would have trouble inflating it again.

Nowadays, this is becoming better because you have these rims where the, the tire stays outside when you deflated, but it's still. A cool feature to not breaking the bead, to not, um, losing any sealant and not having some, some sealant getting out on, on the side and it, and it's just, Literally more fun doing a tubeless maintenance.

If you go in, it comes out automatically and you just push it back. So once you've extracted that sealant, you see how much was left, you might realize, oh, that wasn't, that wasn't much left and. This, this looks bad. I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw this off. So you disconnect the syringe, you throw it out, or you just top it up with new one.

And then what you do is you push against the tire pressure. You push the ceiling back into the tire with with your syringe, and that was the original idea. To, to be able to measure and refill the sealant in a minute or two without, without a drop spilled, you know, and that's, that's literally our claim.

You can install a tubeless tire and maintain it without ever seeing a drop of sealant.

[00:18:27] Craig Dalton: And that, that to me is a godsend. When I sort of think about my process for updating tires and sealants and whatnot, like I think I, in my mind it's so laborious that I don't even wanna do it. And that's exactly the bad. It's exactly a bad approach, cuz that's why 80% of my tires are bone dry right now.

[00:18:47] Pius Kobler: Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's the, the challenge. That's our chance. We, we, we, what we do, and it's our challenge. At the same time, you know, we, we, we really solve something that hassle that people have, but still, we have so many customers that we. Don't get to sell our product because they, they haven't started looking into it yet, even, you know.

[00:19:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah. There's definitely like a journey that I went on, which was like, first I had a good friend who would help me every time I needed to. Change or put sealant in the tire and he would handle it. Then I got some of the tools myself, particularly an inflater, like a booster to help seal the tire. But still to this day, like the, the, the maintenance of it is beyond me.

And I, I am super keen to get these installed on my bike just so I can be more diligent about checking the sealant, particularly when I go off to events and it's been. You know, three, four months between checking and I'm concerned, do I have any sealant in there in a day, or, you know, a big mountain adventure that really counts.

I wanna know and be confident that I have the sealant I need.

[00:19:56] Pius Kobler: It's actually interesting you saying that because that's my answer. When people ask us how often do I have to re have, do I have to check my sealant? And my answer is that I can't give you a number. No way. Uh, I can give you a time span because the guy riding in Mexico summer or in let's say Utah in summer, riding every day having his bike in a, in a shed, in, in, in the heat, that guy and the other guy in Montana riding a maybe.

Double ply downhill tire or, or something every second week. That's com two completely different cases. The one has to, to measure four times more often than the other. And, and, and what we say is exactly what you just said. Measure your sealant before an important race, before, uh, uh, a weakened with your bodies because before you go to the holidays, Just do the check quickly and you have to peace of mind.

My tubal system's gonna be perfect for that occasion and be because you do that, you'll, you'll eventually realize, oh, my, my system with that setup every three, four months is fine. And, and another will see, oh shit, I have to do this every second month.

[00:21:09] Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah. Interesting. So as you guys have designed the product and brought it to manufacturing, where, where did you end up manufacturing this product?

[00:21:17] Pius Kobler: that's, that's, uh, that's, uh, one of these startup stories. You know, we, we, we literally started in the south of Switzerland to the Italian border where you get. Italian manufacturing pricing and, and, and across the border some, some legal, um, opportunities. Like it was just easier due to be in Switzerland.

And, um, that worked well from the, let's say, from the quality perspective, but then, uh, logistics and organization were. Um, how to not be unpolite, um, to towards Italians. Uh, it wasn't optimal. And then we did, we did some risk diversification where we went to the, the future of, uh, cycling industry in, in Europe, which is Portugal, which.

Might be true, but only if you really know what you're doing when you're sourcing a manufacturing partner, which we didn't entirely know back then. So we ran into into quality problems, which actually led to one of the. Darkest hours of our startup. We, I, I'm gonna come to the booster, to our, our inflater.

We, we had a recall on that product just after releasing it because of some quality problems in production. Uh, you can imagine how, how, how that feels when you release your second product as a startup and, and, and you're gonna recall it from, from everywhere. So, so that led us to. Basically learn the lesson and, and say when you are, when you are an early stage startup, it's so much more important that you, that it works, that you have a production that works.

The price, the 20% more cost for your product doesn't matter in the beginning. And we went to Germany and, and we, and we are still in Germany because having a reliable system, having, having. Production that you, you can just rely on is up, up till, till. Today's super important and, and we, we, we are now stretching out towards other regions because the, the, the numbers are getting higher, but for a long time you can, you better go for reliable than for, for cheap.

That's

[00:23:40] Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And um, I can definitely commiserate with that hardware development and production journey that you just described. Just so everyone understands, when was the company first founded? What year?

[00:23:54] Pius Kobler: Um, basically that trip to the US was in 13, summer 13. Then, The original idea was to, that job that I had at that at product developing company was really cool. So, so I was, I was perfectly happy there. And, and the idea was to develop the whole system and sell it on an on, in an online store besides working there, which sounds a bit naive now looking back, but, but that was the original plan.

And step by step we realized, no, no, no, you, you have to do this. Properly or, or there is no chance. And so in summer 14, I quit my job there and started bootstrapping. We, we, we, in Switzerland, you have, um, let's say not so optimal investment, um, environment like, like in, in, especially in the Bay Area and in the US in general.

But what's very good is the, the start of support ecosystem. Like you, you have many coaching programs and, and. Prizes and, and we were lucky enough to win some, some startup prizes, uh, because the story was good. And, and, and, and I had a, a co-founder who already had started a startup before and I was this e t h engineer bike guy.

So that, that was a good mix. And, um, that, that's basically how we started bootstrapping. And then in 2015 we started the company and did, uh, raised a, a financing round to, to get production started and everything that there was, there was capital needed for that.

[00:25:26] Craig Dalton: It's such a hard business. Any, any business that involves inventory, there's just so much additional risk beyond your own personal sacrifice and time to get the business up and running.

[00:25:38] Pius Kobler: And that's where you're, you're, you're from the very beginning in Mm, how to say you're, you're not perfectly independent from the very beginning because you already have your shareholders that you, that you have to justify always what you're doing, you know? So the pressure is on from the first minute kind of,

[00:25:58] Craig Dalton: yeah, for sure. So we went through sort of the valve system and then you had just mentioned the, the booster. And I think the booster actually is where I first came, encountered, encountered the brand. So can you describe the, what the functionality of a booster is? What does it, what does it do for a rider?

Cuz I, I imagine many people don't have that type of product.

[00:26:17] Pius Kobler: Yeah, maybe let me just quickly finish, uh, the, the valve system there, the, the original idea was to do that measuring and the refilling, which, which is still the, one of the major usps. But then that's a also a nice story. I, one day I was, I was installing a tire. I, you removed the valve core because you need a good airflow.

I inflated the tire and literally I was. The air wasn't coming out because I, I was holding my, usually you hold your finger on the valve stem and then you really quickly, you screw your, your valve core back, you know? And I was, I wanted to do that and then realized, The air isn't coming out. That's how we, we, we basically invented or realized our second big U s P is the air stays inside.

You have like a one-way valve with these rubber flaps, so well, it changes the whole installation of a tubeless tire where whereas normally you, nowadays you fill in the ceiling into the tire, then you push the tire on the, onto your rim, then you inflate it and while popping it, some, some seal this.

Spilling over. You know, that's the messy part. When you're inflating a tire with our valves, you, you take the valve core out, you have the full airflow and the tire. They do that without sealant in the tire. So you have a dry installing of the tire and once it sits well, Then you take the syringe and add the sealant into the already installed tire.

So that's, that's the, the, the no drops build part is, is, is with installation also, because you do that new sequence of installing. And then the third big advantage is the rubber flaps are closed at the bottom. That means no sealant gets to the valve core, which means you don't have the, the clock valve cores anymore.

The, the, you can release the air reliably, you know,

[00:28:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah. That's my other embarrassing situation on one of my wheels right now. I can literally remove the valve core. And no air will come out. I've got a, I've got a, I've got a jam, a very tiny Alan wrench, Alan Key in there to, uh, pop it open, and even then it just trickles out.

[00:28:22] Pius Kobler: Yeah. So that, that's basically the three to three major USPS of the valve system. That That, yeah. Summarizes

[00:28:30] Craig Dalton: There's a, there's a ton of nuance in this and I definitely encourage people to go to your website cuz you've got detailed videos on how it plays out, but is very thoughtfully designed. And those small benefits add up to what we were talking before. It just means you're going to address your sealant more frequently.

You're not gonna have any trepidation. You're gonna know exactly what's going on in those key moments and days when you need to know.

[00:28:59] Pius Kobler: Yeah. And then basically having that problem solved, we, we went to, each year we go to fin, famous, famous riding place, uh, by the sea there in Italy and we. Uh, one of us had a, a problem with the tire. We needed to change a tire. So in the evening we are in the shed there trying to change a tire. We have a floor pump, but nothing else.

And the tire wouldn't sit, you know, and so we say we we're product developers. We are these. By tech freak. So we say, let's do a, a GTA booster. You know, the one with the big Coke bottle. You take a coke bottle, you drill a hole into the cap, you install a bike valve, and then you drill a second hole and you have a piece of tube and, and you kink it.

That's how you hold the air. Then you inflate it and then you hold it on the valve. And that's the GTA booster, you know, and

[00:29:49] Craig Dalton: I love talking to engineers.

[00:29:52] Pius Kobler: and, and. We, we, we nearly managed to inflate, like we managed to inflate the tire, but it wouldn't hold. So we, we just didn't get there. And so we had to drive through the gas station to use the compressor, and that's how we got the, the tire installed.

And that's when we said, said, this is, this is another problem that we have to address. And, and basically we, we could, we professionalized the, the, the ghetto booster. And what it turned out to be is, um, it's, it's now, um, Not a p e t plastic bottle, but it's, uh, it's an. Aluminum drinking bottle that you basically, you have that head that you screw on your bottle.

It's a, it's a plastic, a plastic part that you screw on the bottle. You get the bottle with a drinking cap, so you can actually use it as a drinking bottle, which, uh, being in a gravel podcast is very interesting for backpacking. You know, some people going to really remote areas might be interested in.

Generally, this isn't the, the story of it being so portable because it's a water bottle. It's a nice story and media love to write about it. But this is a, this is a product that you have in your workshop normally or in your pickup by, by the trail. By the trail head or something like, or going to holiday like we in, in Italy.

It's perfectly light, uh, uh, and inexpensive. So it's a good product to have with you. But, and, and the backpacking, like the remote part is for some, an interesting part as well. So basically, It's this plastic part that you screw on the bottle. You have, um, a bicycle valve, uh, core that allows you to inflate the whole thing up to 160 psi, which is a lot, but uh, 120 PSI is just fine.

And then, It has a little opening and the slider inside. So you basically push the head onto your valve stem and the slider inside opens and on all the air, um, pushes, rushes into your tire. And, and

[00:31:55] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:31:56] Pius Kobler: the, because there is no hose, that's a bit of tech, tech, uh, details here in a hose, you lose a lot of pressure.

So because there is no hose, you have all the pressure right by the valves and it that means, It is instant, like it's an explosion. We, we call it the booster effect. When when I do the live presentation and I push that booster on the wheel, I look into the faces of people because it's so funny to see, holy shit, that was really fast.

So that's the booster effect.

[00:32:28] Craig Dalton: And I think that's, that's the key. And, and again, just to kind of come back in case it's, it's a l it's unclear. You've got kind of this, uh, aluminum water bottle with a, a, a cap that you can screw into it. You then attach your home pump pump up, which pressurizes all the air in that canister. And then much like a, uh, you know, a cartridge.

When you're inflating your, your, your tire, you're just putting it onto the valve core, where, where you've removed the tip of the valve core, you're putting it onto the valve, and it's spitting very quickly a burst of air, which for the uninitiated, that's what's required to push the bead out to the side of the tire and get it into that locked and secured position that you need.

And that's what you generally cannot achieve just with a floor pump. You need that pressure and that burst.

[00:33:15] Pius Kobler: don't have a tube inside and the air is just ex escaping between the tire and the rim. So if you are slowly pumping, the tire is just move is not moving. So you need, you need that fast push of air to push the tire out. Yeah.

[00:33:29] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And I, if you do not have one of these in your garage, go out and get one today. It is like indispensable, in my opinion for.

[00:33:39] Pius Kobler: potential is very high to trying to in. Sometimes you're lucky and you can do it with a, with a floor pump, and if you're not lucky, it's very frustrating.

[00:33:47] Craig Dalton: and then I used to go to the gas station and I could never get adequate pressure out of those gas station versions. So when I got this product first, I was like, I, I'm now fully capable to change tires, install new tires.

[00:34:03] Pius Kobler: cool thing is it's a small bottle, you know, it's, it's, um, 20 ounces and 34 ounces. Uh, the, the sizes we have, this is not a lot of of volume, but because it's so fast flowing, because it makes it very efficient, it doesn't matter how long the air flows, it matters how much air flows in one second, you know, that's when the tire is pushed outside.

And that's why we did with this booster, you can. If you can't inflate the uh, tire with this booster, then then you have a problem. Then even the compressor, compressor doesn't deliver as much air in a second, like the booster, you know?

[00:34:39] Craig Dalton: so you just mentioned you have two different sizes for, you know, a typical gravel cyclist, maybe a 700 by 40. Is there a a product size that you'd recommend?

[00:34:48] Pius Kobler: Uh, basically talking about the us we only have the big, the, the, the, the 34 version available over there. The, the, the older, smaller version is, is basically not gonna be continued. There are some, some still available in Europe, but yeah, the, the, the, the, the, the 32, uh, 34, 32, um, version is, is just fine. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

[00:35:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I think it's a, it to, in my mind, the bigger, the better, right? If you've got that pressure, it's just gonna make sure you, you, you only need to do it once, and you get the tire seated the way you want.

[00:35:21] Pius Kobler: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the, there is an interesting story about that, uh, that booster effect. Um, I was at sea other, some four years ago or so, and I was doing that booster live presentation and a guy from Bike Magazine comes, comes to, to, to see, and I, I, I do the presentation. I look into his face when I present the booster and he goes literally, Holy shit.

This was so cool. Can you do this again? I need to shoot the video. So he takes his mobile phone, shoots the video of me screwing the thing together, inflating it, pushing it on, pulling it off. And because our valves played together nicely with the booster, because you pushed the booster on without the valve core, you pull it off and the air stays inside because of the rubber flaps.

You can use it with any press, the valve with, with ours, you have that advantage. And so he does a video of that sequence. He puts it on. On their Facebook. And now, what would you say, what would you impress you as if view count of that video a year later?

[00:36:23] Craig Dalton: Uh, a million.

[00:36:25] Pius Kobler: That would be pretty impressive. You are good because many people say, oh, hundred thousand would be really much.

It was 3.2 million a year later, and now it's at 8.6 million views.

[00:36:37] Craig Dalton: Amazing.

[00:36:38] Pius Kobler: And I'm, I'm telling, I'm telling that story because. The, the whole tubeless story as we were talking, it's something that you don't really wanna touch. You don't really wanna look into it, you don't really want to be talking about, but then there is a lot of interest around it.

You know, people, many, many people realize that the topic is there and it's kind of, they have to look into it. So, so reaching that number is kind of a sign how, how important that that topic is.

[00:37:07] Craig Dalton: I think it's just a huge unlock. And to your point, like there's countless people who leave the bike shop with tubeless installed already and don't think about it, don't understand it, don't know about it, and you know, the minute they have to deal with their tire, they're completely ill-equipped to address it.

[00:37:24] Pius Kobler: Oh, that's, that's another, another good point. I, I mean, the reason why we met is because we were at sea o you know, we, we, we basically go to to sea other, and then we go a bit of riding once we are over there, um, at sea. Other, this year my key learning was I was talking to many brand managers of, of Mike brands and.

They love our system. They know what it does, and, and, and I say, okay, let's, let's, let's look into how we can equip this with your bags. And they say, yeah. The thing is, especially us customers, and that's interesting in the US things even more than in Europe, they have to be easy. It has to be easy and, and simple.

And, and, and, and when, when, when, when, when they sell a bike, they want to make the, the sale quick and easy and nice. It has to be a nice experience, you know? So what they don't wanna do is talk about some tech things, tubeless, when they sell a bank. Quite understandably, but that also means they send the customer home with a hundred percent sure problem.

That, that, that they're gonna have, you know, if they, if they convert it to tubeless. So it's a paradox really. They don't want to talk about it, but they should absolutely somehow talk about it.

[00:38:41] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's why I'm, I'm sort of pleased to do this episode with you and just dig in a little bit deeper because again, it's easy for most riders to just forget and not think about it. But when you get to a product that's really thoughtfully designed around a solution, like it's, it's a really nice thing to have on your bike and a really nice thing to have in your garage.

[00:39:00] Pius Kobler: And I mean, that's exactly you, you can literally, if you are the right kind of person, let, let's say you can. It can be fun. Maintaining your tubeless after a while. Like I, I'm so used to it. I, I like doing it because it's so quick and so easy. It's, it's satisfying of, of doing it so quickly. But then obviously still even with our products, tubeless is not for everyone.

You know that there is people who just. Won't ever do that, which is fine. And for them it's, it's, it's good for the, for the mechanic, you know, for the shop where they bring it in. The shop can install the valves and then can do a, a much quicker job. When the, when the customer brings the bike in, in, in a minute, they have the, the tubes checked.

Done.

[00:39:43] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. So continuing on the kind of product journey chronologically, where are you at now? Are there additional products in the product line?

[00:39:51] Pius Kobler: Yeah, so the, the plan was from the beginning to, to the, the booster and the valve cord and the valve system. That's basically what we call our, our backbone products. That's, that's also what we have patented. And, and, and the, the idea was to build the brand on these unique products and then be able to sell consumables like a rim tape and sealant.

Which, which we do, I, I, I don't have to go too much into the rim tape, even though rim tape is one of the, Biggest, um, factor of frustration in, in tubeless. Everybody who has, uh, installed a rim tape and it wasn't tight, and then take the whole thing apart again. Monster frustration, you know, so, so our rim tape does a really good job because it has a, a pressure activated glue.

It, it, it feels reli more reliably. It's, it's very strong. But let's not go into too much detail here. The, the, the more interesting part is, is the sealant where the idea was to, to, with the brand, be able to sell a sealant, but now the sealant has become its own sales driver because we, we have a different approach to the sealant where, oops.

I'm I'm saying. It fulfills all the, all it checks, all the boxes that a modern ceiling has to fulfill, like white temperature range. Um, Environmental friendly. It's water based. Um, it, it comes in a hundred percent recycled CO2 bottles. It's a natural, uh, it's, it's synthetic. Latex doesn't contain ammonia. It doesn't contain aggressive ingredients, so it, it's CO2 proof.

That's, uh, a big plus as well. It checks all these boxes. Uh, But then what, what makes it really different is, as you can see here, or the ones who don't see it, it, it, there is no particles at the bottom of the bottle. When you turn the bottle around that, uh, that accumulation, and then you have to shake it to, to get these particles, the, the, these crystals into solution that.

You don't have to do that with anymore. It just is in solution. So you just take with the syringe, you push it into your tire without the hurry, like shaking the bottle, and then really quickly fill it in because you might not get the right amount of, of particle in there. That's not a thing anymore. But then more importantly, It stays homogenous also in the tire, which means you don't have this separation where you have these rubbery leftovers, rubber balls.

It's, it's cold. Sometimes you don't have this separation into rubbery leftovers and watery leftovers, but it stays constant. It stays homogenous over time, so that leads to a, a, a longer, more reliable function. We,

[00:42:49] Craig Dalton: I've seen those, those rubber balls in certain tires when I've taken them off. Uh, so I know that effectively they're, that's dried up material, so it's not gonna act as a sealant, presumably. And if, if I'm hearing you correctly, by the way, your product is blended and stays consistent, doesn't need shaking, like as long as there's solution in the tire.

It will function as designed versus something that's separated into elements that need to be combined in order to work.

[00:43:19] Pius Kobler: Oh some. Some of the well-known sealants, if you wait a bit too long and you open the tire, you have basically a puddle of water like brownish, greenish, watery. Thing leftover, which is not sealant at all anymore. It's none. It has, has not been working for quite a while. And, and, and our sealant remains homogenous.

And it covers like the tire looks the same one day or, or, or a year after, after installing it. It's just covered like wet from the sealant, which is important. Uh, but then it doesn't accumulate, it doesn't leave these, add these robbery leftovers and, and. We, we have it nicely printed on our bottle here on our ceiling, but we, we won the, the seal test in, in this larger bike magazine here.

I, I always say we, we won by a, by a bit, uh, just a bit better than the other from function, you know, ceiling function. But I say if, if they's done the test two months later, we would've won by, by big margin. You know, because it's still working more constantly. And that's, that's a, that's a big advantage.

And the third, the third advantage of, of it's staying homogenous, and that's very important for, for users, is it doesn't go bad in the bottle because it stays stable, homogenous. You don't have to throw the bottle away after. Half a year or two a year, something like that, because it goes bad in the bottles.

So there, there is no separation in the bottle as well, which in the end is, uh, quite, uh, an environmental impact. You know, a lot of seal being thrown away and it's a financial aspect as well. You, you, you can buy a bigger bottle and use next year.

[00:45:06] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. No, that is nice.

[00:45:08] Pius Kobler: So that being said, the the sealant is not just a sealant that we also sell with, with our, with our brand like we planned originally.

It's really, it's really a game changer. And, and talking about gravel, we, we, this is. This is originally we come from the mountain bike sector. You know, the whole tubus comes from the mountain bike sector or originally, but now with gravel and road coming, the, the challenges are different for, for sealants and, and there is two major differences.

One with the higher pressures, you have a lot more water loss ceilings dry up because, Tires are porous and tires are never perfectly tight. So you, you, you lose water through any tire and, and in a gravel or roads bike, because it's, the pressure is higher, you lose water faster, so it dries up faster than, than a mountain bike tire.

And that's why we, we, we are gonna actually now in May, we are gonna release our road and gravel sealant, which is a bit thinner and, and, and it's longer lasting. So, so that's the. One thing we adjusted. And the other thing is it seals cuts better at high pressures. So that's the be because sealing at high pressures is obviously a big challenge for sealants.

It's the higher the pressure, the the more difficult. So we, we, we've adjusted our formula to, to cover these two important factors for, for travelers and roadies.

[00:46:39] Craig Dalton: Interesting. I'm excited to see that as it's tested out, but I, I love that you're thinking kind of from first principles and thinking about the tire pressure differences and how they'll play out and affect the product.

[00:46:52] Pius Kobler: Yeah.

[00:46:53] Craig Dalton: And, and now going to the, your latest product that I think you just released at Sea Otter and I was able to see last weekend when we rode.

Tell me about the journey to creating a multi-tool. And obviously it's a category everybody's familiar with. Everybody has had one or many over the years. Like what may, what was the design perspective that you came to, to achieve this product? And then we can get into. How cleverly it was executed and the multitude of functions you have built into it.

[00:47:26] Pius Kobler: Basically the, the, the approach is the same as, as with any of the products that we brought. Um, there is still some, some, some trouble left, you know, some things to solve. And, and what's, what was missing for us is there are cuts in the tire that are too big to be sealed by the sealant, and that's when you need a block solution, you need to push something through that hole or slit from the outside.

To, to mechanically close that, that hole and then the ceiling can do the job to, to close off the rest. And so we, we knew, we, we've been, we, we've known for, for a long time that we have to bring some kind of a pl plug solution. We just never really knew where to put it and how to store it. You know, you can go into the handlebar, you can go into the stem, you can go somewhere.

What's. What's really popular now, and this is a really hot topic in, in, in any bike segment, is. Having it quickly accessible, you know, having a solution for in the backpacker or somewhere that's not really a solution that you wanna offer today. So it has to be quickly accessible. You might still hold, have your finger on the hole because what you can do is you're losing air your hold the finger on your hole.

So, so you can stop the, the, the air leak and then you have one hand left and you have to grab that tool with one hand very quickly. And so it has to be somewhere. We, we didn't wanna go into the handle bar or in the stem because you have a lot of compatibility, compatibility issues. So what we decided to do is we, we, we want to go to that formerly bottle cage interface.

We call it standard interface now, because there is sometimes like three or four on a bike or at least two. So we, we basically have a small box that you can screw onto your frame using this screw interface. And the, the original idea of having these plugs is you have, you have, um, rubber cover that you can open on the side and then you can pull out that handle with the plug right there.

So, Literally with one hand, you can open the thing and pull the plug out and then push it in.

[00:49:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:49:43] Pius Kobler: And we, we have, that's maybe a bit too detailed, but we have a side loading fork that makes it easier to load the, the plug into your fork tool. We have a twist shape of the fork tool because when the plug is twisted, when you push it into the tire, when you pu pull the tool out, the plug sticks better in the, in the tire.

Some, some details about using that plug. So this was, this was basically the tool that we had to bring, that we wanted to bring out. But then we said, now that we have this presence on the bike frame, now that we have this box anyway, we are adding something that anybody needs anyway. And that's, that, it's a, it's a little multi tool.

And what I'm holding into the camera now, for the ones who don't see it, it's, it's, it's, uh, like an L and key. It's a L-shaped L key, and it has on the side, it has a bit in bit technology, so the small bits are stored in the larger bits, and you can magnetically remove them, flip them around. And put them back.

So, and on both sides, on the long side and on the short side, you can exchange these bits. And this makes from one a key that is, Um, super lightweight, let's say compared to a folding tool. With all these functions, you have a proper tool that you have a lot of torque and, and good accessibility, and you have eight functions.

You have from two to eight millimeter, all Alan Keys, plus you have a Torque 25 all in one tool, and that's, that's a very attractive solution that you have, right? At the front, you know, you open that rubber cover, you pull that tool out, and you are ready to go. You, you need that often. I, I, I, I just went riding for four days over Easter.

I used it nine times in four days, and I didn't use it because I wanted to count higher. So literally to, to tighten the axle of the wheel, the handlebar was twisted. I had to put my seat post a bit higher. You need. Very often you need to, to adjust or tighten something. So this is very handy to have it quickly available. And then,

[00:51:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, go ahead.

[00:51:54] Pius Kobler: sorry. This is basically level one usability. Use that tool often, but then this tool clips. Magnetically into, into a tire lever. This is like people have to go online to see, to see the form factor. This is the impressive part. You know how that L-shaped tool is clipping into the tire lever where you have a chain link storage, and then you have a chain breaker that clips into the chain breaker, into the tire lever, so it's all compactly stored together.

And then the, the last thing that we added is there was some more space. So we added a little cutter tool, a little Swiss army knife, scissors tool that you can open. And then it has this, this, this cutting function. This is, this is pretty fun tool as well. And it, it, it, it's also the storage for your replacement plugs.

So, In, in short, it's a very compact, um, way of having many, many solutions. The, the, the main solutions that you need, the tools in a, in a small box that's, um, super light to 835 grams, which is, let me check how many ounce Ansys

[00:53:07] Craig Dalton: think even in the US we think about grams when we think about bike parts.

[00:53:11] Pius Kobler: we say lighter than your phone. It's, it's lighter than your mobile phone, so yeah.

[00:53:18] Craig Dalton: that makes sense. And, and you mentioned this, I mean, and, and calling it like a, the shape of a deck of cards is not completely accurate because it's thinner than that. Um, and a lot less weight as you said. So you, you mentioned you've got the ability to both mount it to where any water bottles would've been mounted, and if I'm correct, you also have a way of strapping it to the bike.

[00:53:43] Pius Kobler: Exactly that. That's that. That's basically now. Now we have that box and. You screw that box onto your frame with two screws and basically with the two screws, we also screw this interface on top. It's a, it's like an aluminum bar. It's a sliding interface that's also on the side of the kit. So you have two of these interfaces and now you have what we call a strap clip.

It's a plastic part that you can slide onto onto that interface, and then you have a Velcro wrap where you can. Attach your pump, your CO2 cartridge, your tube, your banana, whatever you wanna bring along. And the idea is to have one clip on each of these items. So before you write, you decide, oh, today I need a pump.

You slide it on today, I need to bring my tube. And you slide it on. And sometimes you go without anything. So you have a modular system with these interfaces around your base box.

[00:54:41] Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah. It's super slickly designed and as you articulated, like everything kind of nestles into one another, and I like the thoughtfulness around. The plug is the thing you wanna access quickly, fast, and ideally with one hand, and making that kind of first and foremost in the design. And then if you need to dig out some of the other tools, they're all right there, but they're not as quickly accessible because you've aired towards what you need on the go fast.

[00:55:12] Pius Kobler: Yeah, and maybe to f to finish that, the top interface that is held in place by the two screws, you can leave the interface away and just put your bottle cage on top of, of the whole kit. And that's actually the. Primary idea you have that it's, it's so small, it's only half an inch thick, you know, so you have half an inch under your bottle cage and, uh, and it, it basically disappears under your bottle cage, but you can still acc accesses for access it from the side, and you can still slide your pump or whatever to the side with your bottle being on top.

That's the, the core idea of that, of that kit.

[00:55:51] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Thanks for clarifying that because when I saw it on your bike over the weekend, you did not have a bottle cage on top of

[00:55:58] Pius Kobler: Because then nobody would see it. You know,

[00:56:02] Craig Dalton: I love it. Good gorilla marketing.

[00:56:05] Pius Kobler: it worked. I'm here.

[00:56:07] Craig Dalton: Exactly. Well, this was amazing. I'm so glad that I, I met you and ran into you. Like I said, I've been familiar with the brand. You guys have been doing it for a, uh, quite some time now and great to kind of just dig into both your history as a product designer. How you always design from a writer first perspective and just hearing the totality of the systems you've built and the thought behind it.

It was a real pleasure to get to know you and I, I hope for the listeners they, they hit up milk it bike. I'll include that link in the show notes so everybody can see some of the videos and cool graphics that you have on the site to understand everything you've been describing.

[00:56:47] Pius Kobler: Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure.

[00:56:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah, great to talk to you.

[00:56:52] Pius Kobler: Yeah, thanks. Bye.

[00:56:54] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with PS. As much as I did, how fortunate was it that I was able to run into him on the trail and how interesting a journey he had to creating the milk at brand and the valve core system and the entire system that he described super happy to have made his acquaintance and get to know those products.

A big, thank you. Goes out to our friends at hammerhead and the hammerhead crew to, to crew. And the hammer had crew to computer. Remember, if you visit hammerhead.io and use the code, the gravel ride. You can get a free heart rate, monitor strap with your purchase of that career, to your computer.

If you're interested in giving me any feedback on the show or connecting with other gravel cyclists around the world. I encourage you to join the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. Everything's for free and it's simply a forum that allows you to connect with. Other athletes around the world. If you're able to support the show.

Please visit, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely helpful in getting this podcast in front of new listeners. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.

Have you heard of the Great Northern Bikepacking Route? Uncover the origin story of the Great Northern Bikepacking Route with founder Matt Kadey. Matt will walk through the vision for the first West to East Cross Canada Bike Packing route. Through 10 provinces and a brief sojourn into the U.S., the GNBR covers a whooping 8700 miles. Like all bikepacking routes, GNBR will evolve over time and local contributions are encourages to continue to improve the route.

The Great Northern Bikepacking Route Website

Episode Sponsor: Athletic Greens

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In this episode, you will be able to:

• Unearth the fascinating tale of the Great Northern Bikepacking Route's conception.

• Embrace the sheer beauty, multifaceted trail systems, and wide-ranging terrain difficulties to expect on this adventure.

• Gain valuable insights regarding the accessibility, security, and services availability for a well-rounded experience.

• Probe the grueling provinces and exceptional trail characteristics that set this route apart from others.

My special guest is Matt Kadey

Meet Matt Kadey, an accomplished bikepacker who has made it his mission to design the ultimate off-road adventure by connecting Canada's diverse landscapes through the Great Northern Bikepacking Route. His dedication to creating an engaging and challenging experience for fellow bikepackers has resulted in a route that encompasses 8700 miles across ten provinces. Matt's expertise in route planning and collaboration with local riders ensures that adventurers can enjoy a memorable and ever-evolving journey across Canada's stunning terrain.

The resources mentioned in this episode are:

• Visit the Great Northern Bikepacking Route website (greatnorthernbikepackingroute.com) to explore the 8,700-mile route across Canada.

• Join regional bikepacking Facebook groups to connect with local riders for input and suggestions.

• Utilize Ride With GPS as a user-friendly platform for plotting and editing bikepacking routes.

• Consider a more rugged bike setup for tackling the diverse terrain of the Great Northern Bikepacking Route, as seen on bikepacking.com's Rigs of the Divide or other similar races.

• Reach out to Matt Kadey and offer input or suggestions for the Great Northern Bikepacking Route, particularly if you are familiar with specific segments.

• Keep an eye out for future alternative route options on the Great Northern Bikepacking Route website, offering more manageable options for some sections.

• Explore bikepacking routes in your local area, such as the BT 700 in Ontario, to gain experience and build up to longer routes like the Great Northern Bikepacking Route.

Bike Selection for the Route The Great Northern Bike Packing Route encompasses various terrains and conditions, challenging riders to be prepared for anything. As such, choosing the right bike for the adventure is crucial. Matt Kadey recommends a sturdy setup similar to those used in long haul bikepacking events like the Tour Divide, Silk Race, or Moroccan Atlas Race. In the episode, Kadey explains that while some sections of the route can be navigated on a traditional gravel bike with 700x38 tires, other areas require something more robust due to rocky, trail-heavy, and sharp descents. His practical advice helps riders better prepare for the upcoming journey and ensures they have an enjoyable and safe experience.

Segmenting the Route To make the Great Northern Bike Packing Route more accessible to a broader range of cyclists, Matt Kadey has divided the route into individual province and state segments that can be tackled separately. This innovative approach allows cyclists to experience the beauty and challenges of the route at their own pace without feeling overwhelmed by the sheer distance of the entire project. During the podcast, Kadey talks about the difficulty of piecing together existing bikepacking routes and finding the best off-road stretches to connect them. He mentions using local riders and Facebook groups for advice and direction, as well as employing the Ride With GPS platform to make changes and edits to the route easily. This collaborative process demonstrates his commitment to creating the best possible experience for all cyclists.

Bypassing Problem Areas During the development of the Great Northern Bike Packing Route, Matt Kadey acknowledged some potentially dangerous areas that warranted bypassing. One example is a stretch of road in northwestern Ontario that is heavily trafficked by trucks. To avoid this treacherous section, he discovered an existing bikepacking route through Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan. Kadey discusses incorporating this southern United States route into the Great Northern Bike Packing Route, thus bypassing the hazardous area and ensuring rider safety. His proactive approach to addressing problem areas further emphasizes his commitment to creating a remarkable and enjoyable cycling adventure for all riders.

This we sit down with Andrew Juskatis from Giant Bicycles to discuss the Giant Revolt X gravel bike. With 50 years in the bicycle business, Giant brings massive engineering and manufacturing resources to the sport. The Revolt X model features front suspension matched with a compliant rear end and dropper post. Sounds like my kind of ride!

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[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast. We welcome Andrew. from giant bicycles to the show. Andrew is a global product marketing manager. And had a hand in the launch of the new revolt acts, gravel bike. I have to say after I saw former Gaston friend, URI has walled. Old riding this new giant bicycle where the RockShox suspension fork on it. I couldn't resist reaching out to the team at giant to learn a little bit more.

I'd been curious as to when we'd start to see larger manufacturers bring suspension forks into the gravel bike world. I know it is a topic. That many of you feel very passionately one way or the other about, but I thought it would be interesting to talk to Andrew about that decision

and how they see the market evolving. Giant is a close to 50, maybe 50 plus year old company. That's been producing bikes for many, many other brands, as well as developing their own brand. Back in the eighties, they've got a huge amount of research and development and organizational strength in the engineering department.

So it was exciting to talk to them about what they were seeing with this bicycle. Obviously they have models available. With, and without that rock shock, we talk about the revolt X model as well as one of the other models that shares a similar chassis, but not an identical chassis. And we'll get into why giant was uniquely capable of producing something specific.

For running a suspension fork versus just slapping something on the same bike or the same frame that they had produced for the non suspension. Model. Anyway, I look forward to you listening to this conversation, Andrew and I are contemporary. So we share some stories about our early experience in the mountain bike market and the evolution of that market. And some of the parallels were.

We're seeing in the gravel world. With that said, let's jump right into my conversation with Andrew. Andrew, welcome to the show.

[00:02:29] Andrew Juskatis: Hey, thanks for having me, Craig.

[00:02:31] Craig Dalton: It's good to, good to have you. I'm, I feel like I've been wanting to have someone on from Giant for a few years now, and I couldn't resist reaching out through my friend Yuri Oswald, who just started riding for Giant u s A. Uh, when I saw the new Revolt acts, it seemed like too, too much of a bike that was right up my alley not to get someone on the show to talk about.

[00:02:53] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, absolutely. You know, it's, it's a new launch for us. It just came out this February. Um, so it's still new, it's still hot, and it's an interesting product from Giant.

[00:03:02] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. Before we dig into that, let's just get a little bit about your history. Where, where did you grow up and how did you discover the bike, and ultimately, how did you end up working in the bike industry?

[00:03:13] Andrew Juskatis: cow. That's a long story, but I will try and make it short for you so, I'm coming up on 50 years old. I've been riding and racing bikes, specifically mountain bikes since I was 14 years old. I grew up in Southern California. I started ri erasing and then riding, you know, around 87, 88. So I've, I've been through the f almost the full trajectory of mountain biking as, as a result of that, my love and for cycling has grown.

So Southern California. Um, you know, went to college at University of Utah and just absolutely fell in love with the sport of mountain biking. But out of that, I took my first job, um, working for cycling publications. So over a period of nine years, I worked for five different magazines starting in 1996, working for Mountain Biking, mountain Biker Bike Magazine, bicycling, and then eventually finished off my tenure at Venu and throughout the entire.

I was the tech editor for all those publications. I did a lot of product testing, um, and, and had a pretty good gig doing all that, but it was 2004 when I was an editor. I flew from Colorado out to Southern California to be a guest at Giant Bicycles when they were introducing their maestro suspension technology.

And I remember specifically as an. Riding that product, meeting the people behind the product and saying, Hey, giant has something going on for it. Like this is legit. Not only is this technology legit, but the people behind it are serious about what they're doing, and it really put, honestly put Giant on my radar for what is going to be my next job.

Lo and behold, position opened up in their marketing department in 2005. I took the job at Giant, and here I am, what, some 18 years later. On the other end of the stick here, talking to editors around the world.

[00:04:58] Craig Dalton: Amazing. I love that we're in the same age range and went through sort of our coming up and mountain biking around the same time. I know we could probably share a lot of stories that might not be interesting to our gravel riding audience, but thanks for sharing that. And just for a little bit of context, can you just talk about the origins of the giant, uh, giant company and the giant.

[00:05:19] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, for sure. And for, for those listeners who aren't aware, you know, we're ob. OB obviously a legacy brand. We just celebrated our 50th anniversary. And again, another really long story short, the reason why giant exists is way back in the seventies when Schwinn was having its bicycle boom, Schwinn was manufacturing the great majority of their product.

You know, here in the United States. They realized that they needed to expand, they needed to bring prices down to some more affordability. So they sent off kind of their Lewis and Clark guys over to Asia to source out, uh, bicycle manufacturing over in Asia. And one of those guys ventured over to Taiwan, which at the time wasn't.

Producing anything to do with bicycles and fortuitously stumbled across a fledgling little company, manufacturing company called Giant at the time. Um, at the time they were not making bicycles, but had the capability to do so well. Long story short. Giant became the main manufacturer of Schwinn bicycles kind of in the, in the late seventies there.

And so they were pumping out the great majority of Schwinn bikes that maybe our parents grew up with, or we grew up as, grew up with as kids. That grew and grew and grew. The manufacturing business continued to improve. The factory got bigger and bigger. We got better at it. And then in the, um, early eighties, we started our own brand, and that's the brand that I worked for, which is Giant, that's the brand that most of your listeners are familiar with.

So, early eighties on that, we started making our own product, unique product, own designed, um, manufactured and engineered by us. And that's the brand that we're talking about today.

[00:06:55] Craig Dalton: I remember in the very late eighties selling a giant iguana or two on the mountain bike side. If I can name, drop that little bit of history to

[00:07:04] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, that's still a running joke I get all the time. What do you feed the Johnny Iguana? I, I love oldie, but goodie.

[00:07:11] Craig Dalton: And I also remember obviously like, you know, in addition to that Schwinn product line that they were producing for many years, they then expanded to a lot of product for a lot of different manufacturers. And I remember sort of learning that as I was working in a bike shop on the East coast and realizing that, you know, of the seven brands that we were selling, it was three or four of them were actually produced in the same factory, um, via Giant, which was kind of interesting at the.

[00:07:38] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, for sure. So our manufacturing side of the business. Does produce bicycles for some other brands out there, but the great majority of of product that comes out of our factory is giant. And just to clarify, you know, anything that comes out of our factory is engineered and, and designed by that brand.

So everything is unique. Like the giant brand is completely different than anything else that might come out of that factory. Um, but I'm here today to talk about, you know, giant product and the giant brand. So excited to get.

[00:08:09] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And you know, as we trace back kind of the brand history as you've been there the last 18 years or so, obviously Giant is a full service brand, meaning they're doing everything from kids' bikes, Tor de France and you know, U C I downhill bikes across the product line. When you think about how the brand kind of approaches.

Entire suite of product. Is it, does it, does it sort of come from the top down and you're trying to make the best product possible? Or is each, each kind of division kind of focused on like, oh, I'm trying to make an affordable bike, or commuter bike, or what have you, and really just trying to be best of class in the area that it's competing in.

[00:08:49] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, first things first is we make sure that we have the right people leading the right categories. From that, every one of those category managers, their goal is to build the absolute best in class for that. Whether it be, uh, a youth bike, whether it be a road gravel or mountain bike, we always wanna shoot for the top.

Only after we have all those, these pieces in place, do we start thinking about price points. How do we want to, you know, what price points do we want to hit? We look at, maybe sometimes we'll look at our competitors and see what they're doing and see how we can, you know, beat them. But for the great majority of time, because our factory, we are the factory.

We have the greatest buying power in the entire cycling industry. If you think about it. I mean, we buy more D R X T rear derailers than any other brand on Earth. So normally we're, we're always gonna get the best pricing out of that. We don't normally focus on pricing. You know, your, your, your listeners can certainly do their own shopping and, and look at different brands and different prices, but that's certainly something where we differentiate our categories.

Um, how do we break it down? And that's something we can talk about when we talk about Revolt X. What are, what are the prices here in the United.

[00:09:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I'm curious and excited given your tenure at Giant, just when you started to see like a gravel bike first emerge in the lineup, and obviously the date you dropped to me earlier I think was 2013. The category barely existed at that point. So I'm curious if you recall, like why was that bike created originally?

[00:10:14] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, that's a really good question. And I, I, I don't wanna say it was created by accident, but at the time, w. You know, the category managers, the marketing staff, we're in touch with the market. We ride a lot. It's our passion. So we're out there and seeing what, what people are doing. Gravel at the time from a mass production level really didn't exist.

This is over a decade ago, like you just indicated. The consumers were, you know, maybe the, the elite that bleeding edge was kind of experimenting with, you know, taking a road bike and putting on the biggest tires possible and riding it in more aggressive terrain. I would say we caught onto that, that, that, that trend and it was, it was just a developing trend way back then.

And we said, Hey, you know what, let's experiment. It seems like it makes sense. This might actually go somewhere. This, this might not be a fad. Like single speeding, right? Like that came and went for the most part. This actually has legs given the trends at the time of. Generally speaking, you know, road bike sales were just beginning to slump off.

People might, might have started getting turned off a little bit about road riding just because of safety issues or just because of wanting to explore their terrain a little bit more than a traditional road bike could take them. Um, so it was kind of a culmination of a lot of a different events. Let us dip our toe in the water with the first Revolt series, and that was like over a decade ago.

And looking back at the bike, looking at the geometry, looking at the max tire size, you know, I'm not gonna say it was wrong in every way, but it was an experiment, right? It was our first mass production toe dipped in the water, and we learned a tremendous amount from that first generation. So here we are today talking about our latest generation, which is the Revolt X, which as your listeners know, is a front suspension, gravel bike, and definitely happy to talk about that.

[00:12:06] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's so interesting. I feel like back in that 20 13, 20 14, 20 15, like there was this pocket of riders that weren't necessarily, you know, riding gravel. They were just happened to be riding on dirt roads or wanted a more durable drop bar bike for commuting. And so there was like enough of a pocket in there despite like.

People wanting to use the bike for many different things. That type of bike made a lot of sense. And then, you know, as we moved forward into 20 15, 20 16, you started to sort of see this very much more specialized gravel event happen and people like really leaning into a gravel bike as a replacement for a road bike potentially in certain scenarios.

So talk a little bit, if you can, at, at sort of a broad level. How you saw the revolt model evolve over those early years into, you know, 20 16 20 17?

[00:13:00] Andrew Juskatis: Right. And so just like you indicated, Craig, you know, the, the racing scene at that time was. Just starting to bubble up more local events, little kind of underground events, but we, when we a, anytime we create a new product, we do ask ourselves. Okay. Is this product going to be raced or is this product going to be ridden?

Is this for the adventure rider or is this for the guy, you know, shaves his legs and has the liker, uh, one piece kit on and is going, going for the number plate thing? So at that time we said no on racing, cuz racing really didn't seem like it was that big a deal. So the original revolt was geared more towards a.

Was more towards exploration, was riding those b and C level roads, or even some, you know, all all, maybe at the time very light single track kind of stuff. But it was not

[00:13:47] Craig Dalton: it originally a, was it a carbon bike originally?

[00:13:50] Andrew Juskatis: no, no, no. Again, I, I would use the term experimental at the time, and so first generation, I think we talked about this a little bit offline, but committing to composite cutting molds.

Is an entirely different thing than building an aluminum bike. Aluminum bikes obviously take a lot of engineering. There is a lot of technology in it, but the commitment level to building an aluminum bike from a, from a mass production standpoint is. Significantly less than committing to composites. So, like I said, bit of an experiment.

The first revolt, um, we want to dip our toe in the water. It was aluminum and so really easy if we needed to second generation, if we needed to change geometry. It's very, very easy to do that once you cut molds, and, and I know you and I know a lot of your listeners know this, but once you cut those molds for composite, there's no going.

And you know, I think we talked about this offline, the commitment level to cutting molds for a composite bike can can be darn near a hundred thousand dollars per size. So you need to think about your return on investment when you're committing to composite.

[00:14:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure, for sure. Amazing. Like I love taking this journey with you. And then, you know, as I mentioned to you offline, like I became super attracted, I think, to the revolt aesthetic and performance attributes in that like 2018 timeframe, maybe, maybe 2019. But found that it was sort of oriented towards a, a narrower tire size at that time.

Does that kind of track with the, the sort of design and performance objectives at that time for that model?

[00:15:26] Andrew Juskatis: for sure. At that time when we, you know, we're trying to look into our, our crystal ball of the future, just, you know, point of reference when we build, uh, or create a new range or series of bicycles, you know, we're looking at a three year lifespan. No more, absolutely no more than a five year lifespan before we're gonna come out with the next generation.

So three years generally. But we need to look at our crystal ball because we need to see what trends are happening, what trends are, are, are growing. What trends are faltering At the time, we, um, wanted to kind of maximize tire size without going bonkers. And I know a lot of folks, including yourself, kept screaming for larger and larger tire size at that, like that second generation revolt.

Um, we didn't feel it was necessary, but when we move into this next generation here, like especially with Revolt X, we can talk about larger tire.

[00:16:14] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Well, let's get into it. Let's get into the revolt. Um, and, and maybe you can sort of break down. You've got one series that has the Rock Shock Suspension Fork and a Dropper Post, which I love the idea of. And then you've got the other, the other sort of, uh, standard rigid bike.

[00:16:33] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, that, I mean, that's a, a great takeoff point. And, and kind of just for the record, let me, let me state our, our view of what you, just, what you just talked about. So, currently in our line, um, we launched this, uh, a little over a year ago was our Revolt Advanced Pro, and that's her composite, um, revolt bike.

That's the bike you're gonna see our, um, professional racers on. Um, you're gonna. With most folks should probably pick that bike if they're gonna put a number plate on for most type of terrain. Um, and we certainly in our marketing materials and our communications, we talk about racing openly, freely, and, and proudly with that bike.

No, it is not just a race bike. It's a very lightweight, it can be used for exploration or simply, you know, riding on ruffle roads. That's fine. But you will hear us talk about racing quite a bit with that, with that current model of revolt advance. The bike that we're focusing on today is the re, is the Revolt X Advance Pro.

And so that has a suspension fork, just like you said. Just like you love, and it has the suspension seat post on it. It does have a little bit of suspension on it if you notice that in the spec, but the dropper as well, so. Not to say that's not a race bike, but we're not gonna be positioning it. Our professional racers probably won't be seen racing on that bike.

It's a bit more for exploration really. Those all day adventure rides down rougher, rougher terrain, which there is certainly a trend for, but just to put it in perspective, um, in terms of sales numbers, You're gonna still see most people choosing the Revolt Advances Pro, that that composite line, um, for their everyday writing, this Revolt X is for a unique person like yourself or maybe some of your listeners who want and are asking for more.

[00:18:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's interesting, you know, as when rock shock and sh tram launched that fork, gosh, maybe a year ago,

[00:18:21] Andrew Juskatis: Right? Mm-hmm.

[00:18:23] Craig Dalton: like I realized that, you know, the early adopters of that fork were likely gonna have to either retrofit it and deal with the geometric changes that it's gonna apply to their bike or get a custom frame built because, The larger manufacturers just weren't ready to kind of jump on that trend.

I think it made sense to like allow rock shock to put it out there in the world alongside, um, what Fox had been doing for some time earlier than that and just see where it was gonna sit. But I was sort of eagerly waiting for a larger brand like Giant to put one on a bike just to expose the world to the attributes of something that was purpose built and designed.

Around that fork because to your point, not everybody's racing and it seems like there is a world and there are locations in the world where this type of suspended gravel bike, while it's still oriented around. Gravel riding, right? You're still gonna ride it on the road and mix train or whatever. But giving the rider an advantage, whether it's more comfort or stability, or safety or performance, with that suspension fork was gonna be something that is gonna appeal to yet these ever more refined niches of gravel that are emerging.

[00:19:38] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, it, it, it's interesting, Craig, you know, you and I were talking offline before and I, I learned a, a bit about your history, um, certainly with mountain biking and, and we all remember way back in the day when, you know, the rock chalks RS one first came out, it seemed like a gimmick, maybe a novelty, and manufacturers, pretty much all of them simply took that suspension fork and threw it on an existing frame and frames back then were all steel, but, You know, that was one way to kind of dip their toe in the water to try out suspension and see if it's gonna stick and, and all of that.

But they were taking a new product. That seriously altered the geometry and putting it on an existing frame, and that would've been the easy way for us to approach this. It certainly would've been the more economical way. Again, you know, we think about commitment to cutting molds is so expensive in order to open a new mold for composite frame.

But we said, and we believe, you me, we argued about this a lot, um, within the company is do we fully commit if we're gonna put a suspension. On a revolt, do we fully commit to creating an entirely new series of molds? And the answer was, we either do it or we don't. And so we did it and we committed to a full size.

Um, of new frames that are suspension, augmented, or suspension adjusted to accept a 40 millimeter fork. Um, it's a gamble. Uh, we will see about how sales are, um, universally again, um, it's, it's, it's definitely a risky move cuz we invested a lot into this frame to make sure that it, it handles correctly. We didn't want it to be, you know, a tugboat and really sluggish.

If you put. A longer fork on an existing frame, it would slack out the front end so much so that it would, it would kill the characteristics of the bike. We didn't want to do that.

[00:21:23] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that's a critical balance. And for the, for the listener who can kind of, can't visualize, like with the suspension fork, your head tube has to, there has to be a little bit more space, right? Cuz those forks are longer in order to add that 40 millimeters or whatnot of suspension in there. So there has to be an adjustment and if you just slap it on your average, It's gonna make it a little bit more relaxed, and maybe that is actually appropriate for how you're gonna ride, said bike, but is not the intended geometry that the designer put underneath you to begin with.

So it is important to have someone thinking about those adjustments and designing them into the frame. Geometrically speaking, but also you mentioned to me that you, you also added a little bit more beef to the head tube in an understanding that the bike is gonna face different challenges and obstacles out there.

[00:22:12] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, th That's exactly right, Craig. So if you think about this, so our existing revolt, advanced Pro, all size medium, has a head two length of about 150 millimeters in order to properly compensate for the kind of that axle to crown length of a suspension fork. The Revolt X Advanced Pro that we're talking about today is 115 millimeter head tube, so that head tube is significantly shorter in order to accommodate that longer lever arm of a suspension fork.

And just like you indicated, um, in order to make sure that the bike would be safe, strong enough to handle that longer lever, lever arm, the engineering of the frame is a bit different In order to handle that, that suspension fork.

[00:22:54] Craig Dalton: Now, I know you've got a ton of experience personally and passionately about mountain bikes in the mountain bike world. When it came to putting a dropper post on that bike, what were you thinking and how do you feel that, you know, the dropper post adds value in that particular bike?

[00:23:09] Andrew Juskatis: For me it was easy because I am a mountain biker and it, within the company I was early adopter of, of a drop seat post and. I can't imagine riding a bike today without a drop seat post. It just has become part of the ride experience. And maybe I'm even more radical in thinking that pretty much every bicycle should have a drop seat post on it.

And, and I know I'm joking about the roadside of things, but maybe I'm not joking about the roadside of things when it came to this product, especially considering its intent of being rid ridden over more rough terrain, vari. Yeah. I mean, that was a no-brainer. And so there is a, a dropper seat post on all of the models of the Revolt X.

[00:23:52] Craig Dalton: Okay. Yeah. Well, you'll get no objection from me here. As everybody well knows, big fan, I considered an upgrade to any bicycle I have underneath me, but I will get off my soapbox or maybe not even mount it today because I've been on it many times before on the pod.

[00:24:07] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah.

[00:24:10] Craig Dalton: We've talked a little bit about the, the fork and the, the dropper post, but let's talk about the frame and some of the other attributes.

I know that there's some shared attributes. The revolt, advance, and the Xs. In terms of like that flip chip, let's drill into what that means and let's talk about the tire size and capability of the bike.

[00:24:26] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, for sure. So some of the similarities between the two, uh, ranges. So that's the, the Revolt Advanced Pro and this new Revolt X Advanced Pro is, and that's one of the features you just mentioned, is the flip chip dropout. Flip Chip dropout is simply a flippable chip that is located in the rear dropout of the frame.

That dropout, whether it can be shifted from its low. Or to its high position, that's 10 millimeters of difference, what that 10 millimeters does for yourself and for your listeners, you do understand that that will elongate the wheel base, making it more stable ride. Um, I think more significantly than that even is that it allows for different tire size.

So in its short position, when the flip chip is, is shifted forward, that allows for a 42 millimeter maximum tire size. If you really.

[00:25:14] Craig Dalton: On the 700 Seari.

[00:25:16] Andrew Juskatis: 700 C. Yeah. If you wanna flip to the, um, long position that allows for a 53 millimeter tire, um, in that long position, that's,

[00:25:25] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:25:25] Andrew Juskatis: that's pretty meaty

[00:25:27] Craig Dalton: What are the, what are the different lenses of the stays, if you recall?

[00:25:31] Andrew Juskatis: off top of my head. I, I don't know, but it is a 10 millimeter difference from the short position to the long position for sure. All geometries are available on our website, so you can see. And that, that is size specific as well, that change.

[00:25:44] Craig Dalton: Got it. And then on the, on the rigid fork, on the advance, is there a flip ship up front

[00:25:49] Andrew Juskatis: No, no, we didn't see the need for a flip chip up front. Um, you can run, you know, a 53 millimeter tire. It doesn't matter. Um, there is no flip chip up front. That's, you know, we, we, we ask ourselves these questions when we're creating the product. That starts to get down the wormhole of how much is too much.

You start adding, A lot of features to a product like this. Obviously that adds complication. That can add complexity and maintenance, and it can also add weight. So what is really gonna make a difference for the rider is something we always ask ourselves.

[00:26:21] Craig Dalton: And when you design these bikes, are you designing strictly around a 700 sea wheel set, or are you also, you know, accommodating a six 50?

[00:26:28] Andrew Juskatis: No, we, we think about 700 c I mean, the majority of of consumers who are gonna purchase this product are interested in purchasing this product. Certainly will ride a 700 C wheel. I know others, including yourself, might wanna run a different size wheel. Um, you're obviously free to do that as well, but are geometries listed.

Don't get in, go down that, that rabbit hole of what if you use this size.

[00:26:50] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's interesting, you know, several years ago, I think just sort of the, the design constraints or the vision at that moment was. You needed to do six 50 B wheels in order to get that bigger tire size. And now that you and you, like many others, are able to run 700 by 50 tires without changing geometry.

To me, who was a big proponent of six 50 b a number of years ago, I'm, I'm sort of more open to the idea that, you know, at 700 c you. you could need. If you can go up to 700 by, you know, in your case 53, like I don't see a need for, for much more than someone on the bike packing margins to ever want.

More than that. And then to your point, like the bike, both aesthetically and performance-wise, you go down to a 700 by 40, which maybe is a sort of standardish race size. You can take that tighter, uh, rear end with that flip chip. And you've gotta have the supercharged race bike underneath.

[00:27:50] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, so it does have that, that variability in it, and we're just seeing, I don't, we are seeing less six 50 B out there in the market because again, um, we've been able to compensate very well for 700 C so we're, we're pretty satisfied with that decision.

[00:28:06] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Any other attributes of the bike that you would typically point out?

[00:28:12] Andrew Juskatis: Well, the, the neat thing about it is, you know, if you're a reader or if your, uh, listeners are familiar with the Revolt Advanced Pro, one of the, the core features on that is what we call our, our diffuse handlebar and diffuse seat post. Um, in general, you know, kind of taking a big step back with Giant, one thing we've always been really proud of is not promoting, not creating gim.

Um, integrated suspension systems, you know, really, really complex things, unique to frames like that. We try and avoid doing that kind of stuff because we see a lot of our competitors making those decisions to add whatever their own integrated suspension system and, That's not our angle. That's not what we're pro we're proud of.

So when we introduce the technology, we want it to be effective, but we want it to be simple as well. Diffuse is our kind of flexible handlebar and flexible seat post. It's a D shaped seat post. It's a D shaped handlebar. It offers a little bit of compliance. It's a little bit of compliance. No weight penalty, simplicity, you know, it's not gonna break.

It doesn't require maintenance, and it's something that riders can feel. Now obviously the Revolt X that we're talking about today, um, doesn't have that diffuse seat post. It has a, a dropper seat post, which does have a little bit of suspension in it, about 20 mils of suspension. Um, But the point I'm trying to make here is that there are options for seatpost.

If you don't wanna run a dropper, you can run a traditional round, uh, seatpost if you want, or you can run our defuse seatpost, which offers, I'll call it a 10 millimeters of four AF travel on it as well. So options for the, uh, for the rider, for the owner.

[00:29:54] Craig Dalton: And for clarity, so that the diffuse C Post it, it's the, the frame accommodates a round C post, but the diffuse has a D shape somewhere in the. In the post.

[00:30:06] Andrew Juskatis: No. Well, so the entire seatpost itself is D shaped. It's using a series of shims you can put in, um, that D shaped into our round seat tube, or you can use a different shim to put in a, you know, a round seat post.

[00:30:19] Craig Dalton: Okay,

[00:30:20] Andrew Juskatis: So options, the bottom line is options.

[00:30:23] Craig Dalton: one of the hallmarks I always think visually of the giant design has been that sort of dropped seat stay. And I know it's not just an aesthetic decision. What's the kind of design philosophy behind that?

[00:30:37] Andrew Juskatis: Rudimentary suspension. If you think about it, it kind of creates a pivot point for the seat tube. If you think about it, your listeners can visualize this. The actual flexing of the seat tube is kind of pivoted off that drop. Um, That drops stay. If you put the stay up in a old school traditional format, it would kind of negate that.

So, long story short, it offers a tiny bit of overall seat tube suspension as the seat post, as your seat, as your weight. Kind of pivots off that pivot point.

[00:31:09] Craig Dalton: that makes sense. And am, am I correct, does that technology also translator or maybe it originated on the road side of Giant's business? Are the road bikes kind of leaning into that compliance as

[00:31:20] Andrew Juskatis: Started way back when everything we just talked about started from the Cyclecross side of things. Um, started with our Tcx Tcx featured a lot of what we're talking about today. That was our test bed for Diffuse. Um, that was our test bed for kind of the, the, the drop stays because it, and, and you know, we all know how the sport of cycle cross has gone.

It, it's, it's kind of been superseded by, uh, by gravel. But everything we just talked about today was tried on our cyclecross bike first We proved it and it moved on to revolt. And then a little bit, we'll move on to, you know, endurance road bikes as well, and then to some degree onto high performance road racing as well.

[00:32:06] Craig Dalton: Yeah, interesting. I just had this other giant model name pop into my head and I, I think it might have been officially my first proper road bike I bought as an adult was a giant kdx.

[00:32:17] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, that's a really, uh, that's, that's a poignant topic you're bringing up. So KX was our first line of carbon fiber bicycles, you know, way back when, first one of the first mass produced, um, not the first, but one of the first mass produced carbon fiber bikes that consumers could buy, both road and mountain.

That was innovative at the time, really complex to make, reasonably successful for us, but that went away. Um, today, the KX net name lives on in our extremely high performance range of componentry that is separate from giant. Um, those components can be found on many other brands as well, but that KX name lives on, um, moving into the.

[00:33:03] Craig Dalton: I reme, I recall it being reintroduced, uh, as a brand for those components. And I, sorry, I can't help but jump on the way back train when I'm talking to you.

[00:33:14] Andrew Juskatis: it, it's totally, it's totally appropriate. I, I, I love jumping on the way back machine and, and looking back because you know, the, the topic of. The conversation of the comments that certainly come up with Revolt X are, my gosh, you know, it looks like an old school mountain bike. And, and I, I'll be honest with you, Craig, I just hopped in the garage.

I have a revolted Revolt X advanced Pro zero sitting in my garage. It's size extra large, and I just wanted to weigh it. Just, you know, this is actual production. This is the same bike you can buy again, size, extra large. I'm a pretty tall rider, but it was 20 pounds, 15 ounces, uh, without pedals. So, you know.

That, that, that's fairly heavy. And you know, I think you could get a hard tail mountain bike somewhere down within that realm of range. But these are two totally different products that are geared towards two different riding experiences. So you can draw your similarities, but it's different.

[00:34:08] Craig Dalton: yeah. You know, I get, I get drawn into those debates as well, and I, I, you know, living in the Bay Area and formally living in San Francisco itself, I had a hard tail mountain bike. And I can tell you that while I touch the same terrain that I, I did back in my hard tail mountain biking days, I definitely ride it differently and create different loops because of the drop bars and the gravel bike.

It gets definitely like it. It exists and it's hard to describe potentially. It definitely exists in a different space in my mind and in my garage in terms of like where I'm gonna go when I get on a gravel bike versus a mountain.

[00:34:43] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, for sure. I mean, uh, we're speaking of generalities here, but I'm sure as heck not going to ride my mountain bike 15, 20 miles on the road to get to some. Mixed conditions. You know, I'm not, I'm not gonna do that on my mountain bike. You can, but I, it's just not traditionally done. I would gladly do it on Revolt X, right?

You pump up the tires and, and go for a 15, 20 mile, 30 mile road ride to get to those interesting BC roads or light, single track, different experience altogether.

[00:35:14] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's so true. Like you would consider that a failure of a mountain bike ride. If you had to ride for an hour, rode 30 minutes of dirt, and then rode an hour home on the road, that would not be a mountain bike ride. Whereas it's a perfectly fine gravel ride.

[00:35:27] Andrew Juskatis: it's exactly what we intended when we created Revolt X.

[00:35:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. I will, uh, Andrew, I'll put uh, links in the show notes so everybody can find images of these bikes and find where to buy them from their local, giant dealer.

And I very much appreciated you coming on the show and talking a little bit about your history and the history of Giant, because it's such a, A storied brand that many of us have been familiar with for obviously, you know, our entire cycling careers, that it's great to see it come full circle and for you guys to have such a, what I think is sort of a spot on spec for a modern gravel bike.

[00:36:03] Andrew Juskatis: Well, great. Thanks for having me, Craig. I mean, I, I think it's a really interesting story, not only with this particular product, but kind of where it came from, what we were thinking and, and how Giant was able to make it unique in the marketplace.

[00:36:14] Craig Dalton: Yeah, and I think it's also like, you know, the economics of the bike industry are important to consider and the, the sort of, uh, engineering and manufacturing might that a giant can put forth just kind of provides a lot of confidence, I think, for owners that, you know, the bike has been well engineered, well tested, and didn't come out before it was ready.

[00:36:33] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for noticing that and that that really was, you know, a massive argument within the company. If we're gonna do it, let's do it right, and let's commit to a frame that is suspension adjusted. So thanks for noticing that.

[00:36:46] Craig Dalton: Yeah, of course. It was a pleasure talking to Andrew.

[00:36:48] Andrew Juskatis: Yeah, thanks Craig.

[00:36:51] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Andrew for joining the show and talking a little bit about Giant's history and a lot about that. Interesting revolt acts, gravel bike. That is now available. In the United States. I look forward to seeing more front suspension, running gravel riders out there in the world to join me.

I certainly enjoy it in my local terrain. If you're interested in connecting with me, please visit www.theridership.com. The ridership is a free global cycling community, where you can connect with athletes around the world to talk all things, gravel and gravel riding.

There are two ways in which you can support the show. If you're able to ratings and reviews or sharing this podcast with another gravel rider are hugely appreciated. Ratings and reviews are aware. Podcasters get noticed. So reviews of the five-star variety, if that's your opinion are hugely helpful to what we do at the gravel ride podcast.

Additionally, if you're able to financially support the show, you can visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride and contribute to our ongoing efforts to bring you coverage of the world of gravel cycling. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.

This week we sit down with Bovine Classic founder, Bryan Yates to learn more about the 2023 event. Run out of the central California town of Atascadero, the event highlights this unique part of California with its combination of wineries, rolling hills and views of the Pacific Ocean.

Bovine Classic

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the show. We welcome Brian Yates, the founder of the bovine classic gravel event in California. Brian. And I got connected last year, which was the inaugural year of the bovine classic. And I was super excited about his concept. Super excited about the location of the event. Down there in the mid section of California by Morro bay and San Luis Obispo, being that closest major city to the event in arrest the Darrow.

As you'll hear Brian has put together a course that highlights the rolling Hills, the larger climbs. The vineyards, the breweries, the single track. Everything you'd want to touch in that region. And packaged it all together for a great weekend for family and writers alike. As you'll hear the event has a couple of warm-up rides and shakedown rides in the days approaching it. And then four options of routes to explore the area, depending on how big of an appetite you have for gravel in that given weekend.

The event happens in October. And I encourage you to check it out and I encourage you to listen to the conversation. I'm going to apologize in advance for a few technical hiccups we had during recording.

I did my best to edit it down, but certainly didn't want to lose this conversation and wanted to make sure, obviously that everybody is familiar with the bovine classic. Before we jump in, I did need to thank this week. Sponsor hammerhead. And the hammer had Caru to computer.

The hammer had crew two is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today with industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS options. As Brian describes the course later in this podcast. I couldn't help, but think about.

The climber with predictive path technology feature that hammer had rolled out last year. This is the type of feature that'll let you know. Are you facing, what are those 45 minute long climbs ahead of you? Or is it some of the punchy stuff that Brian will describe? I found that invaluable when going on routes that I hadn't been on before, because it just gave me, uh, the right mindset for approaching a longer climb or potentially trying to push a little bit. If I knew it was.

Are rolling climb. That's just one of the many features I enjoy on the hammerhead. Kuru to hammerhead software updates and new feature releases allow your crew to, to evolve and improve. Ensuring that the device you get today will be even better tomorrow. I've got my personal device connected to both Strava and ride with GPS.

I can import routes directly to the device. I can export routes. I can do everything that you'd want to do. I also just became aware since I'm borrowing an e-bike right now. That the crew too has a new e-bike integration that delivers detailed battery usage rights to your display. So I need to set that up. If I'm going to be hanging onto this e-bike for a little while.

Right now our listeners can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of a hammerhead kuru two. Visit hammerhead IO. Oh right now. And use the promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. This is an exclusive offer. So don't forget to use the promo code, the gravel ride. You'll get a free heart rate monitor with your purchase of the Karoo to computer.

Just visit hammerhead. Dot IO today. Add both items to your card. Use that promo code and boom. The heart rate monitor price will disappear.

With that said let's jump right in to my conversation. Brian, welcome to the show.

[00:04:15] Bryan Yates: Craig. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

[00:04:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's good to finally get you on the podcast to record and see you face-to-face. I know we first connected about a year ago, and it was gonna be the first year of the Bovine Classic, and there was a lot of unknowns. You hadn't done it before, so great to finally have you.

[00:04:34] Bryan Yates: Yeah, it's great to actually earn my spot in the seat this time,

[00:04:38] Craig Dalton: I'm sometimes sheepish about bringing first year events on that haven't actually happened yet because it's so much of an unknown. Um, not that I had those fears for you because I know in talking to you and just seeing the materials around the bovine classic, you were putting a lot of energy and intention.

On making the event a success, but at least now we have 2022 behind us and we can talk about it in real terms and we can talk about what's changing and why people should be excited for 2023.

[00:05:09] Bryan Yates: Well, let's be clear, I'm still PT baring this thing, right? It's still a lot of smoke and mirrors and a lot of just my enthusiasm.

[00:05:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I mean, it seems like the first five years of any event, there's just a lot of learning that goes. Oh,

[00:05:21] Bryan Yates: for sure. Yeah, for sure. I mean, we learned a lot. So

[00:05:23] Craig Dalton: let's start off by setting the stage a little bit, Brian. Yeah, for sure. Let's set the stage where, where are you in California? Just to set the stage for the listener.

[00:05:33] Bryan Yates: All right. I am exactly halfway between Los Angeles and San Francisco, so it is exactly the midpoint. We are about 17 miles inland from the coast, so. Cambria. Moro Bay is out on the coast, but those are our neighbor, neighbor towns. We're on the inland side where things look ranchy farming and Tuscan. And we're also, so our nearest big city is San Louis Obispo.

[00:06:08] Craig Dalton: Got it. So stepping back for a second, how did you get involved with the idea of creating events? How did you get into cycling? I know there's a lot to this question, but I think it's important as so much of event organizing and course design is sort of a love letter to where you've been riding. So how did you arrive at this point and how did you get into gravel cycling?

[00:06:30] Bryan Yates: Oh man, I love that question. That's like one of my favorite questions. So I, I was a really avid cyclist as a teenager. I was the kid who had, you know, spent all of his allowance on in the eighties, the $3,000 Italian bike. Right. And then, Uh, and then I, I, I left the sport behind for a lot of bad habits for a while, and came back.

Came back, you know, like a lot of us do. I kind of popped my head up in my late thirties. What have I been doing? What have, and I came back to cycling, came back to racing. Uh, Racing, uh, cause I'm not very good at it. Right? Completely, uh, completely just above average. So I came back to that and then I'd been coaching, I started really coaching cyclists for about 10, 12 years.

And had been deeply involved with a pediatric and pediatric cancer ride that I'd been the team director and Cocha for many years called PAB Bluff across America. And I'd been living in Los Angeles for, you know, a long time. And about four years ago, uh, my wife and I decided that. We were done with Los Angeles and that our careers were portable enough that we were looking for a place to move, and we ended up in this town called Atascadero, which is just below, uh, pastor Robles California.

For those of you who know that, you know, basically what we're known for here is. It's essentially like the frontier land of Disney. It's sort of a flyover town. We have the mental hos state mental hospital and uh, it's an emerging, it's an up and coming emerging town. But we moved here and we were. Really welcomed by the community super fast, and I took a gap year that first year.

Ended up riding my bike everywhere, riding all the time. In fact, we moved here and I dropped my bags and. I was taking a group of cyclists to New Zealand to go ride and I dropped my bags and said, I gotta go train cuz I'm gonna be riding like hundreds of miles per week for the next, you know, three weeks.

And my wife's like, great, get outta here. I don't want you actually putting anything away. She was like, go ride. Went to New Zealand, then came back, came back and was riding a bunch here. It was like, it's 2019 and it, we had a lot of rain that year as well and everything was super green and I end up all of these places.

You know, writing in a new place is a lot like learning a new language. I think it rewires your brain in a different way because you have to sort of get lost intentionally and find this new persona. Yeah. And find your way around. And I started discovering all these things like this is every bit as good and all of these things I was doing in New Zealand, this is stunning.

And I'd ridden through here a bunch, taking the Pablo crew, but I'd never gone deep. So let's fast forward a little bit. I'm a big Yuri household and I, I have been friends for a million years and I'm a big fan of his Bantam Classic race. It's this little underground race. Can I say that, Yuri? I hope so.

It's his, uh, I, it's a little less underground now, and I, I love it. It's up in Petaluma. It's not a gravel race, but it is, you know, as we talked about Sonoma Road. So come with fat tires. And I kind of thought I got down here, I was like, you know, maybe I'll do a, a fall answer to that, something really cheeky, and we'll call it the bovine Classic, and then I put it away.

And I had been working out of the Atascadero Chamber of Commerce, had my office there for a little bit and was checking out cuz my home office was built. And at the time I was going off to go work with a bunch of the executive athletes that I was coaching and the president of, uh, the Chamber of Commerce said, oh, what are you doing?

I said, this is what we're doing. Gonna go ride a bunch. He said, anywhere Interesting. I was like, yeah. Here, here, here, here. As a complete aside, this was a complete throwaway comment, like I didn't think twice about it. I said, and we have world class cycling here and nobody's talking about it. Nobody's telling that story.

And said, do you wanna do an event? I was like, absolutely not. So what we ended up doing is I've done a bunch of work. Yeah. I've done a bunch of work with Peloton Magazine in the past as a consulting brand manager and digital manager, and also have had written a bunch for Peloton. I thought, why don't we bring my crew down and we'll do a full on.

Like year long, tell the story of what's going on here and really market it as a, as a cycling destination, as kind of like a Lake Garda minus the lake for cycling. Well, here's the thing. Anyone who's gonna give you money for that wants an immediate return. And so what I quickly found was the only way anyone was gonna do anything is if we were putting heads in.

So the idea of Yeah, that makes sense. Taking Yeah, the idea of taking the slow approach wasn't gonna work. And so all my internal resistance was futile. So we, I, we pivoted and we, I hate that term. We, we, we changed directions and put together a really great story. Um, and a, you know, a long time ago I used to be a, a, a producer at Disney.

And so, you know, you can take the boy outta Disney, but you can't take the Disney out of the boy. And so it was all about the story and started creating this great story and started getting local buy-in. And once I got local buy-in, it was like, crap, we have to do this thing now. That's the long story for our, and now we have to do it.

[00:12:20] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I love that. You know, it's so interesting the different welcoming reception you get from a smaller community that can benefit from 400 more people coming into the community. And that can have a really significant impact on the livelihood of the hoteliers, the, you know, the, the restaurants, et cetera.

And everybody can get stoked. Versus in larger communities, there's a resistance to bringing anybody else in.

[00:12:48] Bryan Yates: I don't think we could have done this in San Lu Obispo, I don't think. We certainly couldn't have done anything like this in Los Angeles. It, it, it had to be somewhere small and it had to tell a story where people were going, oh, hey, that's interesting.

You know, it's so funny. That's why I, I presented in front of. The tourism board here in Atascadero and like the former mayors on the board, he's like, okay, I want you to come over a Friday and we're gonna have, we're gonna have drinks and dinner with the mayors of San, of, of Pastor Robles and Atascadero.

You're gonna tell, because I love your story. We're gonna, so you know, the next thing I know, I'm like sitting there having, having, having happy hour with the mayors, which is just so.

[00:13:32] Craig Dalton: I love that. It's probably a l I suppose, in the, in the, again, in these like rural markets, like you do get that kind of reception and the event organizers are kind of brought in in a collaborative fashion, which I imagine just sort of opens up a lot of doors for you, whether it's. You know, going through ranch private learn ranch land, and just getting the right introductions to allow access to some of these areas that may not push through in, you know, non race day.

[00:13:59] Bryan Yates: That's really a great, a great question and point, and it's absolutely true. You can get things done a lot more quickly, uh, in these smaller communities when they're receptive. Um, you know, atascadero in some ways. It is in the heart of the Pa Robles wine region, which is arguably one of the most beautiful regions in the world.

And by the way, I, I wanna come back to that just a moment on a, from a cycling standpoint, and yet most people don't know about Atascadero. So some of the work that we had to do was, is around the marketing of saying we, this is the wine region. It's not just the town of Paso Robles. And I think. There might have been a little resistance from, say, the Paso Hotel Ice, which have more money than a Tascadero a hotel ice.

Like, why are we doing this even though you're not gonna be here? So cuz we're selling the whole region and people are gonna stay with you, and we're. Pitching that, and the, the downstream effect is that people are gonna come to your resorts and stay with you when they're not here at the race. So, yeah.

And, but it, it's definitely, it takes a little bit of work. But, you know, we, at one of the meetings with the Paso people, the, the city's, um, deputy manager or economic development director has seen my pitch, seen my pitch a couple times. He piped in, he was like, yeah, let's give this thing money. And frankly, I'm absolutely ecstatic and delighted to know that our dirt roads are actually a luxury item that we can, that we can market.

So when you're telling a story to people that they're not used to hearing, that also goes a long way.

[00:15:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You talked a little bit earlier about how you fell in love with the area through all the riding and exploration you were doing. As you started to think about specifics for the bovine classic, based on the terrain you had available, kinda where did you net out? Like what was your philosophy going in?

A lot of races have mixed terrain. A lot of races now have single track in it. How did you net out in expressing like, what's the. The area has to offer.

[00:16:12] Bryan Yates: So the first thing that I want to come back to, and I'm gonna get into this cuz it's related, is that if you look at the Paso Robs wine region, that total mass is about two thirds the size of the land.

Mass. Mass. If you've put Sonoma and Napa together. But, so we're about two-thirds of that size, so we're huge, but we have one-tenth of the population. So the easy story there is that what happens is that you, I can go out on a five hour bike ride and see 15 cars. So from a cycling standpoint, it's like, this is what happens if, uh, you know, Disneyland creates bicycle land.

Right. And the other thing that, that we really had while moved here is that a couple of bonds came, came due, and there's been a ton of investment just in the actual. Roads themselves. So the tarmac is, the roads themselves are, are a joy to ride on. So the way it went netted out is that we have some public roads that include, uh, that include these dirt roads that are all just marvelous and they cut through different climates within the Paso region.

So, you know, east Paso is very different than what happens to West on on the West Paso. And there are a lot of little surprises that happened on these public roads, just like visual surprises. And uh, we wanted to showcase those. And, you know, there are other rides that have gone through here and done this.

And we haven't done anything incredibly unique with the course. We just let the course be for this year, for last year, and this year as it is. I mean, one thing we did want to add is that because we were coming back into a task at Arrow, pardon? What we wanted to do is that we have, uh, lawn Branch Saloon was one of our, is one of our sponsors, and they're out in, uh, the town of Creston, which is about 15 miles east of Paso.

And we do a pre ride out of there on Fridays called The Fried Pickle Ride cuz it's known for their fried pickles. Uh, but it also has this amazing single track and probably one of the most beautiful that ends up on one of the most beautiful dirt farm roads I know. In the county. I was like, well, we gotta, we have to find a way to put that in.

And it was really, we wanted, there's no way you could do a hundred miles of straight gravel here. Right? I just don't know that that exists in most of California. But what we could do was, Was a course that I sometimes like to call the Estrada Bryon, and it was this combination of dirt to asphalt, to dirt, to asphalt.

And you know, when people come, when riders come off onto the asphalt, they're greeted with beautiful asphalt, with twisty, windy roads. So everything was gonna be. Part of the experience. And then we wanted to hit some wineries along the way. Like we have, we had one winery that opened up doors and they said, yeah, cut through, we'll let you cut through our vineyards to skip this thing.

And I mean, I think it freaked some people out a little bit cuz it had a really hairy descent. But for the ones who were at the front, I was like, yeah, this is great. I love it. Others were, you know, sliding about. That's one of the things that we're also working on is, you know, this is getting that trust that you alluded to, um, down the road.

Like one of our mission pillars is to. Make friends with the, uh, ranching community so that we can change our course up and so that we can do different things to get access to areas that others don't have access to. And so, you know, right now we start with getting small, segmented at. Access to, to vineyards cuz there's all these awesome roads that go through vineyards, dirt roads.

So we get access to that and then hopefully just keep earning trust and keep expanding and earning trust and expanding. And, you know, down the road maybe we will get lucky and be able to turn this into something like Rebecca's the, you know, Rebecca's, uh, stage race. And so we have multiple days of official rides.

That would be, that would be the dream. Amazing.

[00:20:31] Craig Dalton: So where did you net out on sort of the available course distances and course options for riders

[00:20:39] Bryan Yates: for this year or last year?

[00:20:40] Craig Dalton: Uh, if you want to contextualize it with last year, but let's, yeah. We can talk about this year as well.

[00:20:45] Bryan Yates: Yeah. We had, uh, three courses last year.

We had the big bovine, which was about 97 miles and 9,000 feet of climbing. So, you know, I call us America's fourth hardest Cal themed gravel ride in a California wine country in America. Partially cuz we're cheeky. But I think the other part is that it's no joke. I mean, you know, 9,000 feet and 97 miles is no joke of riding.

And we're very serious about that. We want it to be a challenge. So we had the big bovine and then we had, uh, the happy bovine, which was. 65 miles and 6,000 feet of climbing. We had the baby bovine, which was 42 miles and 2,800 feet of climbing This year. This year we have the big bovine again. I keep wanting to add this river section that's as a last segment That is right.

That skirts a tascadero. But we pulled it out last year cuz it seemed kind of unduly cruel at the end of the ride. And we thought, okay, we're gonna put it in this year. And now that whole section has been decimated by all of the rain. So I'm still not sure that we could, like we said, we'll put it in, but I don't know that it's gonna be worth it to go in.

But assuming we can, the big bow vine goes up to 101 miles. And just over 9,000 feet of climbing. Then there's the feisty bovine, which is about 76 miles, and we've added a fourth course, which is the new new happy bovine course, which. Gis, a couple of climb, but it's still like 70 miles and that goes out on some single track.

So that cuts off a different part of the course. And then we have the happy bovine, which is pretty much the same as last year.

[00:22:46] Craig Dalton: On the, longest course, how is that climbing accumulated? Are we, we talking about, you know, a thousand foot long climbs or 25 different a hundred foot climb?

[00:22:57] Bryan Yates: That's a, it's, it's just a proper mix. You know, the funny thing is, okay, when I moved up here from Los Angeles, I used to be a pretty binary rider, cuz that's how the climbing was.

You go up and you come down and you go, and here it is way more Belgian, right? There's so many rollers. Just so, so many rollers. And, uh, you know, those rollers can. Pitch up at 17%. It's no joke. Right? So you accumulate a lot of a rolling and this is a, this is a great question that I should go back and look at the specific percentages, but then we have several long climbs.

There's Kyler Canyon is a five mile ish climb, and so you probably gain 900 feet. Cyprus is. A good 45 minute climb. And so that's probably another, another 900, 900 feet or more. And then Santa Rita Road will probably get, what is that, 1300 feet of climbing and then, And then the single track out on Rocky Canyon is about a mile or so.

So you don't get that much climbing, but you get some tech. It's technical, so, and it comes at mile 72, so it hits you when you're hot and fatigued at that point. For sure. But again, that's all, all that stuff is punctuated with a lot of that, a lot of the rollers.

[00:24:20] Craig Dalton: How long do you think it takes? The bulk of people to finish that. Is this like a, a 10 hour day at that point?

[00:24:27] Bryan Yates: You know, I think our final rider actually, we took off at 8:00 AM last year. And I think our fi, our lantern moge came in at four o'clock. But I mean, he just got sidetracked by something.

Um, it wasn't really anything. So I think he came in at four or four 30, was our final rider last year. So yeah, it's a long day, but I don't think it was a 10 hour day. I mean, I've definitely, um, you know, I was kind of slow last year and actually I was really slow last year and I sat out and did it myself one day to just as a little empathy check for our riders.

And I think it took me seven and a half, eight hours to do it.

[00:25:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I was gonna ask about aid stations and what your philosophy was there.

[00:25:10] Bryan Yates: Great. I love that. So our f. Philosophy. You know, we did well in some parts of our aid stations last year, and we did less well in others. The overall philosophy is that I want them to be expressions of what's cool about the area.

And we have a lot of businesses doing a lot of boutique stuff. I mean, it's a wine region, right? So people are inherently doing creative storytelling through wine and distilleries and products. So our first aid station is a beautiful winery and they were excited to have us, and it came at about mile 20, and it was kind of a bummer that a lot of people skipped it.

Uh, their thing was they were serving hand ups of homegrown home cured homemade prosciutto. So, uh, like stuff that they had grown from, grown and made from their farm was like, here you go. And they were serving it with these apples that the, that the pigs had been fed on. They're like, oh no, you have to taste it with the apples.

So, uh, so we want it to be those kinds of things. And then STR did an amazing aid station out. Top of one of these mountains where people get up, they're exhausted, they're pissed off at me, and slams up there throwing a party, and then people go, wait, that's the Pacific Ocean. Holy cow. They, we have these great bakeries.

And so what Ram did last year was basically created a bake shop. They went and bought all of these amazing pa uh, pastries and people get up there or just chow out on locally made pastries. And then our third aid station needed needs some tlc. We need to put some paninis and things like that in. Then I want people to be, you know, I sort of want people to, to go back to the finish line, you know, heavier than when they left.

And if that means they also get a case of like type two diabetes from good food, then that's, I'm okay with that too. Um, and then our fourth aid stop was out at Long Branch Saloon and. It's so funny. They're like, what should we do? I was like, fried pickles. Give 'em fried pickles, give 'em fried pickles.

And so they were serving up fried pickles and that was, you know, people were stopping and, uh, I'm not supposed to tout this for liability, but people were stopping and ordering b ordering burgers and beer at mile 80, hanging out at the a, at hating it out at Long Branch and then, you know, poodle their way back the last 20 miles.

So it's all about showcasing what's cool and what's the character of the place and what makes it special. And I think there was also someone who hopped in. Did an unofficial aid station where, uh, you know, they were serving beverages that they shouldn't have been serving, but they did it in the middle of nowhere.

They, we love, we loved that they were there, but at the same time it was like, Ugh, I don't wanna own that liability.

[00:28:04] Craig Dalton: may have to check in with that Lantern Rouge winner and see if they ordered a burger at the brewery and, and stopped for libations at mile 80.

, given the, the course you've laid out, what type of equipment are you recommending riders arrive with in terms of like tires, for example?

[00:28:23] Bryan Yates: So I think it's gonna be a little early to tell, because I don't know what the turf is going to be. I will tell you what my standard tire is and then y'all can make decisions what however you want based on this.

But we will get a little, we'll get more to it as we get closer. So generally, I will run, um, The Pathfinder 40 twos because I'm old and lazy and like a plush or the Pelli Cido ages because there's a lot of, there's a lot of, of terrain of asphalt and. And I don't want you to be bummed out by the asphalt.

It's actually super exciting. People get so stoked on those descends because it turns into like roller coasters. So the centra h uh, I mean, during the winter I've been running the rmba, the specialized rambus up front and a pathfinder in back. But it's gonna depend on what kind of trail work gets done on Rocky Canyon, which is our single.

It's going to depend on what happens to some of the dirt roads that we go on because we've had some, some of the dirt roads that y'all road last year have basically fallen into the ravine cuz they've just been so saturated. So the county's been really great about getting in there and fixing stuff. But let's wait until we get a little bit closer.

But right now, you know, the, the Pathfinder's a pretty solid choice. It rolls beautifully. It holds the road beautifully, and you know, it actually for like a 42 seat tire has a relatively low rolling resistance, which makes it fast and fun.

[00:30:03] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that's so much fun when, I mean, you wanna hate your bike or your tires at least once during an an event to sort of push you and force a decision one way or the other. Where do you want comfort? Do you want speed? At some point there's gonna be a trade off.

[00:30:17] Bryan Yates: It's gonna be true if I talk to, uh, I mean a lot.

The guy who ends up in a lot of our Instagram photos, this is my usual ride buddy. And, you know, he's leaps and bounds stronger than I am and he is talking about riding 32 c Pathfinders for next year is like, you be you, dude. That's, if that's what you wanna do, go for it. It's definitely rideable. You know, I would ask someone after we have Yuri and Allison out, I'd get their feedback and see what they want.

But I think that, you know, I think that on the long course we're not gonna see a lot of improvement on the Rocky Canyon single track, which has turned into a proper mountain biking climb. So that's that, uh, for me says stick with, stick with a wider pathfinder and just go cuz of where it lands in the course.

[00:31:07] Craig Dalton: Yep. Got it. There's a couple other things I wanted to point out about the event. As we were talking about offline, you know, there's many rides and events that people roll into that day, do it and go home. It really seems like the way you're orienting this event, With activities several days before. You expect and have experienced that people are staying in the region for a few days.

Can you talk about the sort of notion of planning a long weekend down there and what the riders might experience?

[00:31:36] Bryan Yates: Oh God, I, I can talk about this all day on all night. I didn't know that when I grew up, I was gonna end up being a tourism guy by accident. Yeah, I think so. I, I think, let's, there are some challenges here for the Sprinter set.

All right. Slow County is relatively strict about what it can, what it deems as public outdoor camping. Uh, in fact, they, it, the county has technically made it illegal to even RV camp on someone's property. It's un unpleasable, basically. So I would just say, you know, if you're coming down with a sprinter, call me and let's put, let's hook you up with some, some place where you can park that.

But like as far as events go, come down with your family. Like there's so much. To do. It doesn't just have to be about wine. I mean, it's a beautiful place to tour. Uh, there is south of here a really fun zip line tour, for example, that is over, that goes over a vineyard. And so that's really fun to take kids to.

You can go out to the coast and, I mean, it's a 30 minute drive to the coast and hang out at the beach, go to Cambria or Bay. So there's all of that. I know. We have one of your, you're in Marin and we know, I know one of your, your Marin crew is coming down. We've got about a crew of 15 of yours who will be coming down and kind of staying together.

And one of the things that we've done is, Set them up with a private in-house wine tasting from a, a well-known winemaker who doesn't happen to have a tasting room, but really wants to show up. So, you know, you know, there's sorts of things that we can do. Like you can get introductions to say, wine winemakers who are doing interesting things where you may not actually figure, find out where they are.

Um, and there's, you know, there's great restaurants. Like one of the things we did last year that was a little, that was different than other rides is we don't do t-shirts. Mostly cuz we find like 40% of the people want t-shirts and 60% saying no, I'm just gonna clean the chain with it anyways. So in our rider bags last year we really tried to keep it with local products and there's a company that makes beautiful, fresh and dried pastas and so our rider bags were had.

Pasta had local, locally made granola bars from a bakery. And so we try to keep it with local goods and kind of give people a bag that's like, here's a taste of pasta, or there was locally made jams. So we, that's sort of the approach is really all about showcasing the cool stuff that's being made here.

[00:34:14] Craig Dalton: And what about riding before the event? Do you have pre rides organized? What does that look?

[00:34:20] Bryan Yates: I should have picked up on that question before you. Thanks for teeing me up. So, Thursday night we will have, uh, Thursday evening we'll have a little ride out of Pastor Robles and that, you know, last year we were totally, we were surprised as heck by our, our pre rides last year.

Um, on Thursday we did one. We'll do one out Paso. You know, we had 20 people show up for that, which was fantastic. And uh, canyon was there. And I Canyon, if you're listening, I certainly hope that you'll be there again. Uh, canyon was there. They, they hosted that ride and we did, you know, 20 miles that Thursday evening, Friday we met out at Long Branch Saloon, where the fried pickles are and.

We did a pre ride out of there and it was so funny, like none of us expected what we got. Like we were there, we figured, oh, we'll have 25, 30 people. Uh, we had 70 people show up for that pre ride. It was so it was, you know, people were full on, ready to come out and play, and then everyone stuck around and had had lunch and beers at the saloon afterwards.

We did another pre ride that day. Um, vole the local kit maker. Which is made and manufactured down in, um, in Pismo Beach. So about 30 minutes from here. They hosted a pre ride out of Atascadero in the afternoon for late comers. I don't think we're going to do a third one this year. It's just a lot to juggle.

I think we'll focus on the two Thursday and Friday, and then we have the packet pickup party on Friday evening, and we had 80% of our people picking up the packets the night before, which I think was a reversal. What bike monkey usually experiences, and I do wanna say this is a bike monkey production, like this couldn't happen without them.

And we're really incredibly grateful to be part of their, their network of rides. So that's a, it's a special thing to do a bike monkey event. Yeah,

[00:36:18] Craig Dalton: absolutely. And for those, listen. Listening if you did not hear my interview with Carlos a few episodes back with respect to Truckee Gravel, we do talk about Bike Monkey as a production entity and some of the other great events that Carlos has been working with the last decade.

So certainly a top class organization to have behind you and provides a lot of confidence. I also wanted to make a personal note about the region you're talking about. I've had the pleasure of riding down there a little bit, and I remember when you announced the event last. I was so enthusiastic about it because I totally agree that it's this gem that's within good driving distance of both LA and San Francisco, where you can get down there and have a completely different experience than you're having to the north or to the south of

[00:37:06] Bryan Yates: that area.

It is such a unique experience for sure. I, I, I still, after four years, I still get up and I will end up at certain sections of this, of the, the region is go, I, I, I can't believe, I can't believe I have this, this is phenomenal.

[00:37:23] Craig Dalton: What's, the cycle camp? What's the story behind that?

[00:37:26] Bryan Yates: Yeah, so, uh, this'll be our third. We have a camp coming up in at the end of April, and this is the third annual one that we've done. It usually brings about seven to 10 riders and people just get here and, you know, for a lot of them it's their opportunity to.

This year we have a lot of new riders, but in general it's like for people to come together and just enjoy some different, the course sliced up in different ways over four days. So, you know, we have it coming back up again in a couple, in a couple of weeks, and everyone's, you know, The, uh, the ribbing has already started and people are already talking about their favorite segments that they're looking forward to.

And so, um, you know, and they get, they, they all come back and like, this is great. I love coming here. This is, is amazing. And I forget that it's, you know, three hours from LA and three hours from the Bay Area.

[00:38:15] Craig Dalton: Love it. A couple other things I wanted to mention and a final question for you. I, I did note in your materials that you have discounts for groups, which is amazing. So if you're listening and you want to go down there, whether you're three people, five people, or eight people, they provide discounts, which as we all know, these events are more fun when you go down with your crew.

And then the final thing I wanted to just ask you about and give an opportunity for you to talk about is you've always had a charity component for the event as well. So could you talk about that charity and why it means

[00:38:44] Bryan Yates: something to you? Yeah, this is really, this is really special to me. You know, just because our theme has been all about the local, we found a local charity that's doing really important national work.

It's called Operations Surf. There is a, uh, movie on them on Netflix, and then there's been a, a, a piece that's done on them on E S P N, and it is an organization that creates surf camps and surfing and ocean education for injured returning veterans. As, uh, as, as a gateway to, to a pathway to recovery. And working through P T S D and really, you know, helping save people's lives.

And I got a chance to do that. I go to one of those camps last year as a volunteer and it's absolutely touching and powerful. So what we have done is we have created, it costs $5,000 to send a vet to one of those week long camps. And so last year we created the mor Mariah Will Wilson ride, like Moe.

Operations surf scholarship to raise $5,000 to send one female veteran to a camp. And thankfully, you know, we hit that $5,000 last year and that felt really great. And if. We got to send two female veterans to a camp this year. That would be so, such an impressive legacy for, for mo. And you know, we thought that surfing, surfing communities and gravel communities, there was a lot of interesting overlap in the two of those, and we felt like, They're both strong about the community.

They're both strong about sense of place. They're both strong and so many about being connected through outdoors in a way that a lot of other sports aren't. So that's So Operations surf, check 'em out. It's operations surf.org. We're really, really fortunate to have them as charity partners.

[00:40:43] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's awesome. So good that you were able to kind of cross that threshold of getting at least one person to attend, another veteran to attend that camp. And hopefully we can get to this year, I'll make sure to put links to the event, which is the last weekend of October this year so people know how to register.

And I'll also share a link to that operations surf so everybody knows how to get in touch with that and familiarize themselves with the importance of that charitable organiz.

[00:41:10] Bryan Yates: I appreciate it. I know they will too. It's absolutely lovely. .

[00:41:13] Craig Dalton: Brian, thanks so much for all the time. Thanks for the efforts in putting together an event in this region.

I'd love to see it and I look forward to seeing it firsthand this year.

[00:41:24] Bryan Yates: Thanks so much for having to me on. We love talking about the event. We love talking about it with passionate people and I love what you're doing with the podcast, Craig, so thanks so much.

[00:41:37] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Brian from the bovine classic for joining us. Make sure to check out the bovine classic. You can just search for it, or you can find the URL in my show notes.

Continued. Thanks and appreciation goes out to our friends at hammerhead and the hammerhead kuru to computer. We very much appreciate your support of the show. And if you're interested in that free heart rate monitor, just visit hammerhead.io, but a heart rate monitor in your cart with a crew to computer.

Use the code, the gravel ride, and that heart rate monitor is all yours. If you're interested in connecting with me, please visit the ridership that's www.theridership.com. That's a free global cycling community where you can connect with other gravel and adventure athletes from all around the world.

If you have a moment, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. And until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

This week the microphone is turned the opposite direction with Dave Mable, host of Bike Talk with Dave, interviewing your host Craig Dalton. Dave had mentioned the many references I've made to my career and felt the audience should get to know me better. This is a re-broadcast of the original conversation from the Bike Talk podcast feed.

Episode sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (use THEGRAVELRIDE for 15% off)

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I'm actually going to be the guest. So a little while back I was the guest on bike. Talk with Dave. With host Dave Mabel. Dave reached out to me and said, he's been a long time listener of the podcast. He and I connected earlier via one of his film projects. And he mentioned that he felt like I left a bunch of Easter eggs in each episodes.

Easter eggs about my history or a little mentions of things that I've done in my life. And he was curious to unpeel the onion and get to know me a little bit better. And it dawned on me that so much of my time on this podcast is spent interviewing others that I rarely share that much about my history, how I found a love for the sport of cycling, how I became a podcaster.

And what I do for my day job.

So with Dave's permission, I'm going to republish the conversation I had on bike. Talk with Dave. That was originally found on his feed, just so you can get to know me a little bit. So I hope you enjoy the conversation again for the frequent listener. You'll get to know me a little bit. If this is your first time listening to the gravel ride podcast.

Maybe this isn't the episode to start with, unless you want to get to know a little bit more about me in the meantime, I did want to thank the dynamic cyclist. I mentioned them in the last episode as a long-time sponsor of the show. At this point, dynamic cyclist offers a stretching and strengthening programs specific to cyclists.

It's a video series. Each video is about 15 to 20 minutes long. It's designed to be easy to fit into your life. Something you can do. In addition to all the cycling training you're doing. But it's critically important, especially as you become older, that you really do strengthen and stretch those parts of the body that get overworked. You can imagine as a cyclist, we all sit in this kind of awkward, unique position, and it's important to kind of work other muscles as I'm learning more and more as I'm getting older.

So I encourage you to check out dynamic cyclists, just go to dynamic cyclists.com. They've got a free one week trial. So you really know what you're getting into and very inexpensive, either monthly or annual memberships, if you're a gravel ride podcast listener, which obviously you are, because you're hearing my voice.

Simply enter the code, the gravel ride, and you'll get 15% off. Either one of those programs. So I highly recommend making it part of your routine. And with that free trial, that's a no reason not to try it out. So with that, I'm going to hand over the microphone to Dave Mabel, who is going to interview me.

[00:03:10] Dave Mable: Craig Dalton, I am so thrilled to have you on Bike Talk with Dave. You are the OG of Gravel Podcasts and just talking to you before this thing, I'm just having these flashbacks cuz I do listen to your podcast very, very regularly and even go back to before I started listening to podcasts to hear your old episodes.

But it's a treat to have you on and hear your voice in my. Uh, yet another time today. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks for

[00:03:40] Craig Dalton: Thanks. Yeah, thanks Dave. I'm, I'm appreciative of you having me and looking forward to the conversation.

[00:03:46] Dave Mable: I wanted to have you on because, well, a, you've got a cool podcast and you've done some cool things, but you throw out these little teaser about your past history or past life, and you've just peaked my curiosity to be perfectly honest, and I'm like, I just gotta ask this dude. Who he is and how he came to be.

So first of all, um, where you call it, where, where are you right now?

[00:04:13] Craig Dalton: So I am in Northern California in the town of Mill Valley, so we're right at the base of Mount Tam, which is purportedly the birthplace of mountain biking.

[00:04:22] Dave Mable: bike. No doubt. Do you have an old mountain bike?

[00:04:25] Craig Dalton: I do, I've, I've, despite the Gravel Ride Pods podcast being my main public persona in cycling, I am an avid mountain biker and have been for, for a very long.

[00:04:36] Dave Mable: So I asked you if you had an old mountain bike. How old? What's your oldest mountain bike?

[00:04:42] Craig Dalton: My oldest mountain bike is probably 12 years old,

[00:04:46] Dave Mable: oh, all right. It's getting

[00:04:47] Craig Dalton: so not, yeah, not, not exceptionally old. And I probably, if I had enough room, I probably would've had a few more laying around. I do have one access to.

[00:04:56] Dave Mable: to one

[00:04:58] Craig Dalton: 25 year old Dean titanium mountain bike that is with my father right now. And the long term vision is that'll come back into my life and hopefully that'll be a bike my, my now eight year old son can grow into at some point.

[00:05:13] Dave Mable: a, oh, that's that. That's pretty cool. You better hang onto to that. That's, that's very cool.

[00:05:18] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's got a, you know, in addition to being like a neat titanium bicycle from that, that era, I actually, and we can get into this later, I worked at Dean Titanium. That was my first sort of professional job out of college.

[00:05:32] Dave Mable: Oh, cool. Oh, I, I do wanna get into that cuz that's one of the things you throw out are little, uh, tidbits about you working in the cycling industry, um, and, uh, and being a lifetime cyclist. , I, I feel like cycling often leads us to cycling industry jobs. So am I guessing right that cycling came first in your life?

[00:05:56] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah it did. And I'll, I'll take you on the way back machine for a minute here, Dave. So my father, my both my mother and father are from England, and my dad was an avid bicycle racer before he came to the us. And a little bit when he set foot on US soil, always a road racer. By the time I was around, he had transitioned into marathon running because having kids wasn't allowing him enough time to ride.

But the bike has always been sort of around my life, but I, I certainly didn't pick it up with great interest. I did a little bit of BMX racing, which my father thought was.

[00:06:35] Dave Mable: was completely

[00:06:36] Craig Dalton: Crazy and uninteresting. He thought that was a, a discipline of cycling. He didn't understand. And thankfully my neighbors raced BMX and they would take me because my parents really had little interest in fostering my BMX career.

[00:06:50] Dave Mable: Did your dad ever use the word silly? I'm just picturing an English guy. What are you doing with that silly sport?

[00:06:58] Craig Dalton: E exactly. I mean, I think his progression to his progression from cycling as he would describe it, First he had a truck bike, so I had to translate that to being like, you know, beach cruiser kind of city bike style and then fell in love in, you know, in, in the UK they have a lot of cycling clubs that are fostering interest for the kids.

So, you know, by the time they're 10 or 12, if they're showing interest. They're getting offered bicycles to use on the weekends and really kind of fostering them and developing them. In fact, my father is one of five boys, and I think four out of the five boys all raced as kind of teenagers into their early twenties.

And it's a, it's been a, a unifying thread for the entire family, just the sport of cycling. In fact, my cousin from Australia, originally from the UK is staying with me right now, and he and I reconnected as an adult via Facebook as a platform and our love of cycling. And we ended up going and riding in Belgium together.

But I completely digress my progression, again, BMX kind of then just used the bike for getting to and from school. My freshman year of high school, my dad took us on a, a bike tour. It was three of us, freshman in high school and him, uh, up through upstate New York and Vermont. We were living in New Jersey at the time, but it was still not a, something I was craving to do, riding a bike.

It was just something. It was a great activity and a lot of fun. It wasn't until my freshman year of college and after my freshman year of college, my dad had bought a mountain bike, and this is to just to date me. That would be sort of around 19 86, 19 85 timeframe. So pretty early on he bought a Cannondale Mountain bike, and while I was home for the summer, I fell in love with it and I decided I really wanted to get a mountain bike.

I was in school in Washington, DC. Um, got a job in a bike shop to bring that cost of entry down and ended up buying a Trek 7,000 aluminum hard tail and started cutting my teeth. Uh, mountain biking in Washington, DC for the uninitiated. Washington DC believe it or not, has a lot of dirt trails. You have to figure out how they're all interconnected and it, you know, it's certainly not like being in, you know, Iowa or Colorado, where there's a lot of open space to kind of pursue these.

But it was there and it was a quite a fun community. So started racing mountain bikes, kind of my junior and senior year and falling in love with it. It coincided with me falling out of love with being a university student. And fortunately, maybe, I dunno, fortunately or unfortunately, I said to myself, if I can get a degree in business, I can apply that to anything.

And in order to finish this degree, my intention is gonna be to go work in the bike.

[00:09:48] Dave Mable: the bike. Oh, cool. Wow. That's pretty intentional.

Did you end up getting the degree?

[00:09:55] Craig Dalton: I did, yeah, I finished my degree and I was managing a bike shop in Washington, DC and I said to my son, you know, I was also bike racing mountain bikes at that time and being fairly competitive at the expert level in the mid-Atlantic region. And I decided, well, if I, if I'm just managing a bike shop, I can do that anywhere.

Why don't I move to Colorado? And at the same time, I was applying to bike companies. Via, gosh, snail mail probably at that

[00:10:21] Dave Mable: Right, right. Licking a stamp.

[00:10:23] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And, uh, I remember, I, I had got some interest from Dean Titanium and Yeti. They both had potential positions available and I said, that's enough. And I packed up all my stuff, moved to Colorado, went down to interview at Yeti.

That didn't work out. Moved to Boulder, got a job in a bike shop, connected with the team at Dean and they, they brought me in for an interview about a month after I. And that led to me becoming National Sales Manager of Dean Titanium.

[00:10:54] Dave Mable: Wow. Cool.

[00:10:56] Craig Dalton: That title would imply some lofty position and experience, but at that time it was, uh, that meant I answered the phone and tried to convince bike shops and customers to buy bikes.

[00:11:09] Dave Mable: Fair enough. Fair enough. So what bike shop in Boulder in what year?

[00:11:14] Craig Dalton: I worked for psychologic.

[00:11:16] Dave Mable: Okay.

[00:11:17] Craig Dalton: And that would've been, uh, 1993.

[00:11:22] Dave Mable: huh? Okay,

[00:11:22] Craig Dalton: And for, yeah, it was a pretty brief stint actually at the, at the shop before I ended up moving over to Dean.

[00:11:27] Dave Mable: actually. Yeah. I had a little history with bike shops in Boulder. A friend of mine was part of the, uh, Morgo Bismarck crew and uh, and then ended up that closed and there was another cycle works, or I don't know.

Anyway.

[00:11:46] Craig Dalton: so many great bike shops there in Boulder.

[00:11:48] Dave Mable: So many great bike shops there in Boulder and so much great riding there in Boulder. I spent a summer in Boulder and, oh, I mean, we still love to go back with our road bikes, believe it or not, and uh, and do some of those road roads either up into the mountains or out into the planes. Like some of those rides out towards Nawat and Longmont and, I don't know, just go east.

Were awesome.

[00:12:14] Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah, for sure.

[00:12:16] Dave Mable: So how long were you at Dean?

[00:12:18] Craig Dalton: I was at Dean for about a year and a half, and then I, I took a break and was focusing a little bit more on, on racing, which I was still doing. Turns out working for a small bike company doesn't actually give you a lot of time to ride and train on your bike, so I took a break and, you know, got some menial job and, and raced.

And then I got an opportunity to move out to California to race for a team that was sponsored by Voodoo Bicycles. And Will Smith and I had a, had made a friend who was out in Palo Alto and got me a place to live out here, so I moved out to race for that team and I was able to get a job with a bicycle computer and accessory manufacturing company called aat.

[00:13:01] Dave Mable: Aset. Awesome. I, I should have gotten 'em, but I've, I probably have three old AEC computers in my garage in some old box somewhere.

[00:13:12] Craig Dalton: I would love to see them.

[00:13:14] Dave Mable: Uh, Avice. I'm thinking of the wrong thing. Who made the Fat Boy? Was that Avice? Did they make

[00:13:22] Craig Dalton: that wasn't. They did, yeah. They did have a very popular slick tire. Their computers were, um, had numbers associated with 'em. So Theat 20,

[00:13:33] Dave Mable: Yeah.

[00:13:34] Craig Dalton: 30, and the AAT 45. And then one of the big innovations that happened while I was there was the aviset vertex. And the vertex was the first. Watch, digital watch that could track elevation, gain and loss.

[00:13:49] Dave Mable: I remember that.

[00:13:51] Craig Dalton: And it was really, I mean, the older listeners will understand this moment. At that time when you were talking to your buddies about a mountain bike ride and the only piece of data you had was mileage. It was really difficult to compare one ride to another, right? So you could say, I rode 10 miles, but if you did 10 miles and 5,000 feet of climbing, that's a lot different experience than 10 miles and a thousand feet of climbing.

So the, the v the vertex became this, this great unlock that we all take for granted today. Like when you go to a course profile for an event, they're always talking about mileage and, and elevation gain that you're gonna experience. But prior to that point, that just wasn't available as a data set. The average consumer.

[00:14:33] Dave Mable: Yeah, it was a big deal, wasn't it? Uh, barometric, fresher based.

[00:14:37] Craig Dalton: That's exactly it. Yep,

[00:14:39] Dave Mable: Yeah, that's pretty interesting and pretty kind of vague. I mean, it's certainly not an exact science,

[00:14:47] Craig Dalton: yep. Yeah. And it drifted, right? The barometric pressure would drift and there have to reset your elevation to a known elevation in order to get it to.

[00:14:56] Dave Mable: yep. I, I remember those days. I never had one, but I do remember that I did have the ACET 20, ACET 30, whatever they got up to.

[00:15:05] Craig Dalton: I think there was definitely a 40 and, and I can't remember if there was a 45, there was one that actually had that Vertex technology into it. Um, that might have been theat 50.

[00:15:16] Dave Mable: yeah.

[00:15:17] Craig Dalton: But my experience there was gr, my experience there was great. I, I ended up, um, uh, going to work on the national mountain bike circuit.

So I would go to all the events and kind of represent AED and have an opportunity to do a little riding myself. I was able to go over to the tour of France once and represent aed. At that time. I mean, the, the thing that, that always, I always come back to with Aset, they used to have these bi, these ads in the bicycle magazines where they would show the front of the, the professional peloton, and every one of those riders had an aviset computer on their bike.

And my favorite tagline was, what 90% of the workforce brings to work?

[00:15:57] Dave Mable: That's awesome. I can picture that ad.

[00:15:59] Craig Dalton: yeah. I was so sold. So I was one of those guys who went over and made sure everybody was dialed when, when onsite changed from their traditional yellow to their Tor De France pink. We gave them all custom pink computers.

[00:16:13] Dave Mable: Nice. Nice. That's awesome. What a fun experience. What a great, great, uh, if you're a cycling enthusiast, what a great gig.

[00:16:24] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think, I mean, the bike industry as an as as you know, like, it, it, it has its ups and downs. I do think, you know, as a young person in their twenties, it's a phenomenal place to work. It's just you have to start questioning your career path later in life. Like, where am I? Where am I gonna get to?

Obviously the bike industry is fairly small. There's some exceptions, but you know, a lot of these businesses, unless you're the owner, it's kind of hard to really move up the food.

[00:16:51] Dave Mable: Yep. And, uh, time is, uh, like if you want to have a family, it's, it's hard to be. At the tour of France for a month every year. And then the tour of Spain, and then the tour of California, and then the et cetera.

Et And then you go to Interbike and then you go to the Outdoor Retailer show and you, you, you can be home, gone from home a lot, lot, lot. So it is a lifestyle for sure, but, uh,

[00:17:18] Craig Dalton: to that, To that exact end, I, I ended up accepting a position with one of a's competitors, Veta and I moved over to Switzerland to be European. I forget, I was European sales and marketing manager. And effectively they, they, they had a person in the position who was um, usurping too much power. As according to the US bosses, and they wanted someone young who they could control, who was willing to live in Europe, travel around country to country and represent the company.

And I was like, that's me. I raised my hand. I'll go. I had a great, I mean I had a great time. The, the company was, was in the course of my brief tenure over there, which was only about six months. The company was bought by a private equity firm and I had some issues getting paid, but I don't. I don't, uh, you know, I had a great experience for six months over in Europe living on someone else's dime.

Again, just talking about bikes with people. But I will say after that experience, I was like, I need to take a professional break from the biking industry and go find something else to do. I'll still love riding my bike. In fact, I may even like it more if I don't have to talk about it, you know, 50 hours.

[00:18:35] Dave Mable: There's true truth to that statement for sure. Uh, so what'd you end up doing? I mean, that's still a while ago.

[00:18:42] Craig Dalton: yeah. Yeah, so I mean, I guess the sort of abbreviated version is, um, moved back to California, ended up going to business school and St studying technology management. Did a series of work for a series of small companies in the mobile. And then, um, in 2010, I founded a company that made iPad and iPhone accessories, a company called Dodo Case.

And, and it ended up taking off, I won't belabor this since this isn't an entrepreneurship show, but ended up building a manufacturing facility in San Francisco. Our products were handmade. I a hundred percent referenced back to my early experience at Dean Titanium in terms. How to build a brand, how to build an aura, how to build quality products, how to, how to stand behind those products and really kind of take and accept consumer input as like the guiding principle of where you take the business.

It was in the early days of social media being here in the Bay Area. We sort of understood the game that needed to be played at that time, and we amassed a pretty big following because we just had a great compelling story. I mean, who's hand building phone and iPad accessories in the United States?

[00:19:58] Dave Mable: iPad. Yeah, nobody,

[00:20:02] Craig Dalton: Exactly. So obviously cycling continued to be part of my life, but it was just a, a recreational activity. I wasn't doing much. I don't think I was attending any, I wasn't going down to Sea Otter, like I let most things come and go. Maybe I would pin a number on here and there as I sort of went out to Leadville and did the Leadville 100.

I had a brief stint doing Ironman triathlons, but it was all just in the, you know, the pursuit of fun and scratching that endurance athletics itch.

[00:20:33] Dave Mable: bag. Do you remember what year you did? Leadville

[00:20:37] Craig Dalton: Um, it would've been either 2007 or 2009.

[00:20:44] Dave Mable: Hmm, I'm gonna have to look. We were in that era, so we might have lined up together.

[00:20:50] Craig Dalton: Amazing.

[00:20:51] Dave Mable: you were probably ahead of us, but, uh, nonetheless, I think my first was like oh, three or four. I did it solo and then I told my wife, I was like, Hey, I think this is tandem about, and she believed me actually. She said, if we get a new tandem, I'll do it.

I'm like, uh, I, I'm calling the bike shop right now.

[00:21:15] Craig Dalton: Oh man, I can't e

[00:21:16] Dave Mable: And she said, yes.

[00:21:19] Craig Dalton: I can't even, I can't imagine going up Columbine nor down Columbine on a tandem.

[00:21:24] Dave Mable: You know, up Columbine was a lot of pushing, as you can well imagine, and down Columbine. Uh, we bought a Ventana full suspension rig with the Maverick Fork. So six inches of travel front and rear, and I needed all six inches.

Like you're going down Columbine and there's people coming up on the other side of the trail. And there's a giant rock in front of you. All you can do is hit it, you know? And so I did, but uh, we always made it down. Uh, the only time we crashed was going up the power line and uh, you know, it's just rocky and hard and.

I, uh, come around a corner and the front wheel like just gets up on a lip and then hits another rock and just stops all of our momentum. And for some reason we leaned to the right and there was nothing but air below our feet. And so down we went. friend of us was, a friend of ours was with us at that moment, and he looked at us, he's like, you guys good?

Yeah, we're all right. He's like, I'm outta here.

[00:22:34] Craig Dalton: Goodbye. It's already been long. If you're on your way back up power line, it's already been long enough of a day. You can't, you can't wait for down soldiers at that point.

[00:22:42] Dave Mable: No, that's true. That's true. We made it home though. Uh, so you have a lot of mountain biking in your history.

Where did Gravel.

[00:22:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, so the story around gravel, I had moved from San Francisco to Mill Valley where I live today, and I was riding into the city, and for those of you who don't know the geography here, There's actually a lot of, um, there's the coastal range of hills that kind of go right from the Golden Gate Bridge into Marin County, so you can actually ride in on the dirt.

And so I had this new commute and I'm, I'm gonna mention that this was also when I discovered listening to podcasts. And we'll put a pin in that statement for a minute here, but I was riding into the city and I had an opportunity to ride on the dirt or ride on the trail. And I had had a cyclocross bike back in the day and I.

[00:23:34] Dave Mable: in the, like

[00:23:35] Craig Dalton: It was, this was would've been around 2015 timeframe just to give a, a, a timestamp there. So I bought a, a niner aluminum gravel bike with a max tire capacity, I think of maybe 33 millimeters. And I started riding that and it had mechanical disc brakes, and I started riding that into the city. And, uh, listening to my podcast and I thought, well, this is sort of an enjoyable hybrid of, you know, it's a drop bar bike, so it's efficient.

So when I get on the pavement, I can ride to my office, which was, it was about a, an hour and 15 minute trip. Um, one way, but with probably 60% of that being on pavement. So again, like playing, playing in that mixed terrain angle. But I also started to recognize, One that I was enjoying it, but two, that the bike didn't have the capabilities that I needed.

The, the hills were steep, so my mechanical disc brakes were requiring too much hand strength to brake, and I, it felt like a huge shortcoming, only having 33 millimeter tires around here. Disclosure, the gravel riding we have around here is, is rough, and many people would argue that it's mountain biking, but it's my cup of tea.

But again, so I, I thought. How was I around the sport of cycling my entire life as we've just discussed? How did I botch this bike purchase and buy something that wasn't suitable? And you know, I was reading about the gravel market. It was obviously early days at that point in terms of like the amount of models that were out there, et cetera.

And I just had like, I want to go all in on this. Like this is the type of riding I really like. I.

[00:25:17] Dave Mable: I get

[00:25:18] Craig Dalton: The best bike that I can afford. I want disc brakes and I want big tire capacity. So after a bunch of research,

[00:25:27] Dave Mable: I think that's called a mountain bike.

[00:25:31] Craig Dalton: possibly, possibly a bunch of research, I ended up, um, selling a road bike and pushing all in on a, an open up with two wheel sets. So I had a road wheel set and, uh, a gravel wheel set. And I absolutely fell in love with it.

[00:25:49] Dave Mable: huh, what was the tire capacity of that?

[00:25:51] Craig Dalton: Oh, I could run 40 sevens, six 50 by 47

[00:25:55] Dave Mable: huh. Wow. That's, I mean, that's, that's pretty early. I mean, those are, if you're talking 15, 16, like we're still riding cross bikes on gravel those days. I mean, that's, you go by a cross bike and that's your gravel bike.

[00:26:10] Craig Dalton: Un unquestionably that open bike was visionary and ahead of its time. It's it. I would still argue that it's spec still holds up with the sweet spot of gravel cycling today.

[00:26:23] Dave Mable: Huh, interesting.

[00:26:24] Craig Dalton: Yeah,

[00:26:26] Dave Mable: So I feel like you dove in Headfirst podcast and you're going all over the freaking world riding a gravel bike.

[00:26:36] Craig Dalton: Yeah, so I, I pushed all in. I realized like one, I had a di, I had a, uh, caliber brake road bike and I was like, this thing's gonna be worthless a few years from now as people go to disc brakes. So I was like, I just need to clear out the garage, take the money I get from that, sell the niner and, and buy this one bike for me.

The type of road riding I do, I found that the open totally cap. As a road bike with, you know, 28 sea tires on 700 sea wheel sets. And then as I said, with those six 50 B 47 s, incredible bike for everything we have in front of us here on Mount Tam. At around the same time. Now this is going to 2017, we ended up selling Doto case.

The business I had. And I had mentioned as a little something, we put a pin in that I had been listening to a bunch of podcasts. Doto case was a manufacturing business. It was also an e-commerce business and a social media business. So I was always in front of a computer, you know, building websites con, you know, trying to convert E-commerce customers to customers.

And I said to myself, I need to do something totally different for a break. And selling the company gave me, I don't have to get a job tomorrow. Money. It did not give me, I don't have to get a job ever money, but you know, it gave me a little bit of a window to just kind of explore my own creativity. So I said I'm enjoying podcasts.

I'm flabbergasted that I managed to screw up this gravel bike purchase. There's so much going on in gravel. I get so many questions about how to spec a bike. I said, why don't I, you know, I took, I took a podcasting course and I began the Gravel Ride podcast in 2018. With this simple vision of, I was gonna interview people, product designers, and event organizers.

[00:28:25] Dave Mable: which I feel like you've stuck to for on five years now.

[00:28:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's been pretty much the journey and I still, I mean I, you know, as you and I both as podcasters, there's days where you're like, can I keep up the energy and enthusiasm to do. Obviously being conversational podcasts like we both host, it's important that you're engaged and excited to talk to your guest.

And I still am. I mean, I, I, I do think, you know in, as, as we hit 2023, some of the, the massive innovation in the, the bicycle design maybe is behind us for gravel. There was a long journey of many years. For designers to figuring out like, well, how do we get the right tire capacity? How do we get the right geometry?

And I don't think the, the, there's not one single right answer to that. I think what has emerged is you've got this great category that as writers explore their own interests as they reconcile their own terrain, there's, there's the right bike for. And I'm always the first to say the bike setup I have here is not the bike set up for Kansas, for example.

Like, it's just, it would, it would be way overkill. Um, and there's, there's nothing wrong with what I've set up my bike as, and there's nothing wrong with how you've set up your bike.

[00:29:52] Dave Mable: with Yeah. Well, you would totally make fun of me. I'm still on a, uh, Uh, this is kind of interesting, a trek Crockett, the pink one, and, uh, flat bar, which is interesting. And it is signed by both Gary Fisher and Katie Compton. Which, I don't know, maybe that went down in value a couple years ago, but I feel like it still has value. I, I'm a Katie Compton fan, but uh, it was kind of funny cuz they were, it was at the TRX CX Cup and truth be told, I wanted spend nest to, uh, uh, to sign it. And every time as a journalist, every time he was available, I was working and.

I wasn't working. He was working, coaching, doing whatever. So, uh, I walked past the Katy Compton compound and uh, I was like, Hey, you should sign my bike. She did. Gary Fisher walks by at that moment. He's like, well, how come she gets to sign it? I'm like, dude, here's a pen right here. And then they argue about who had more input into its design, which I just stood back, listened and. But, uh, you know, it's a pretty old sc I mean, it's a cross bike. It's a high, it's a high performance cross bike, and it is a bit sketchy on loose gravel, but on the, when the gravel is concrete, it is awesome. It flies. I have 33 millimeter tires on it, which people are like, I didn't know they still made those.

Oh God, I saved them. But, uh, You know, looking at the, the well, 40 sevens. Holy moly, those are big. Uh, I could envision a pair of forties I could envision, um, you know, the, the benefit of a longer bike. Talking to a guy about, um, fat biking recently, he builds his own bike. You'll want to tune in, um, to Steve McGuire and, and hear how he has come up with his fat bike design.

Um, Is long, like, really long chain stays because it acts like a keel in the loose gravel. And I'm like, oh, that, I mean, that really makes sense. So there is kind of something for everyone. I, I also have to say, like, I talked to a dude, um, the podcast I dropped today. The guy is, uh, the reason he loves gravel is nobody cares what you're.

Nobody cares what you're wearing. Nobody cares how fast you are. They don't care what color your skin is. They don't care how you talk. Like it's just a gravel ride.

[00:32:38] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:32:38] Dave Mable: uh, and he really appreciates that. So, boy, that was a rant, wasn't it?

[00:32:43] Craig Dalton: a little bit, but we learned a lot about your bike.

[00:32:48] Dave Mable: Like I said, there's little Easter eggs we can throw out in these podcasts, right?

[00:32:52] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I think that the, the sport of gravel's in an interesting place right now, um, just in terms of like the, for lack of a better term, the professionalization of the front end of the pack and that that's impact on the rest of the field. I mean, obviously like we talk about the spirit of gravel and the type of experience that anybody who's willing to sign up for one of these.

Should have, like, we're generally, we're not at the front. We're really just just there for the experience, but there is this ongoing kind of evolution of what the front end of the pack looks like and act, you know, the requirements for safety and, um, competitiveness that need to be figured out.

[00:33:34] Dave Mable: signal out

[00:33:35] Craig Dalton: I'm. I'm, uh, sort of optimistic.

There's a lot of experimentation going on this year. You know, Unbound just announced that they're gonna start the professional men by themselves, and then the professional women two minutes after that, and then the rest of the field, uh, eight minutes after that, which I think is interesting. I, I do think, you know, in talking to female athletes, it's, it's always been this curious race dynamic of clearly you're working with.

[00:34:03] Dave Mable: men,

[00:34:04] Craig Dalton: And other women throughout the day, like anybody would, right? No one wants to ride by themselves, but so much of that can come into play with who takes the win, right? If you, you could, you know, a strong woman can go off the front and someone drafting men could bridge that gap putting in, you know, 20% less effort.

And that could be the difference between winning and losing and. I, I have no idea what the right answer is, but I, I do like this idea that they're gonna have some time to themselves to kind of strategically do one thing or the other,

[00:34:40] Dave Mable: And

[00:34:41] Craig Dalton: knows what those things will be.

[00:34:42] Dave Mable: right? And at least have the opportunity to see where people are relative to themselves. Like, oh, there's five women ahead of me and there's 25 behind me. And then the men come and you get mixed in there. You still know like, okay, there's still five women ahead of me and 25 behind me, and so I'm in good shape.

As opposed to just not having any idea where the rest of the women are. Cuz you lose them in the, the me.

[00:35:09] Craig Dalton: exactly. So I know the, the Shasta Gravel hugger, which I just did an uh, episode with him a few weeks back. Uh, Ben, he's trying a few things. That'll be interesting to see. We'll see the results of that in, in March. Um, yeah, I just think it's gonna be an interesting year for.

[00:35:23] Dave Mable: for sure. It, it is going to be an interesting year and it was an interesting year, especially with the world UCI, world Championships and that was definitely an interest. I wouldn't call that US style gravel, uh, women raced on a completely different day than the men.

[00:35:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Not at, yeah, totally Not at all. US style gravel. In fact, I, I just had, um, the gentleman on, I haven't released the podcast yet, who's got, who's running the UCI world's qualifier out of Fayetteville for the second year in a row. Um, the name of the event is escaping me. It'll come to me in a minute, I'm sure.

But it was interesting talking to him both on the podcast and offline. You know, the, the expectation, I guess, at the USA cycling level for a long period of time was that this first inaugural, um, uci, uh, you know, world Championships was going to be held in the US and I think they just, UCI just wasn't communicating really well with USA cycling.

And ultimately it wasn't until, like the very sort of last quarter of the year that they really figured out and leaned in. Hey, if we're gonna pull this off, it needs to be in Italy. It needs to be somewhere, somewhere where they've run events and it's close to home and they can kind of, they, I think they just felt like that was the only way that they could execute.

[00:36:49] Dave Mable: was, huh.

Interesting. Um, yeah. U S USA cycling, I feel like instead of, it was just interesting who showed up, how they showed up. And then how the race went. And I feel like it was a sep kind of day versus a, or Keegan Swenson for sure. I mean, he probably could have,

[00:37:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah,

[00:37:11] Dave Mable: uh, but, um, but it was such a road race. It was like Perry Rube with gravel sections.

[00:37:18] Craig Dalton: yeah, yeah. And, and obviously like shorter than we're accustomed to. I'm not necessarily opposed to like that shorter length because I do think. An argument to be said, to say, you know, it's hard to be racing after 200 miles, whereas everybody's racing hardcore after a hundred. Um, I don't know what the right answer is, but I'm, I'm like, my gut tells me like those ultra distance ones are like their own special thing.

Um, while I, I just pulled it up. So it's the Highland Gravel Classic in Fayetteville, put on by Bruce Dunn at All Sports Productions. He's got the, the UCI qualifier for this. Um, in Fayetteville again. And I think the interesting thing is, um, you know, who's gonna show up? Like what is the process he and I were talking about, you know, as an age grouper, I could go to Fayetteville and if I'm in the top 25% of my category, I could go compete in the world Championships doesn't mean anything sort of, of my relative ability here in the United States across, you know, any of these big races we have here.

But I have to say that that's, that's a compelling story. Like I, I would go to, I would go to Italy and represent the United States. I'm, look, I'm a tourist cyclist, but to like have that honor of like, in the 50 plus category to go over there, I would, I wouldn't, you know, snub my nose at it.

[00:38:41] Dave Mable: it? Yeah, for sure. I'd, I'd, I'd jump at that chance. I've got a lot of work to do to even hope for top 25% of our group

[00:38:49] Craig Dalton: You, you and me both.

[00:38:51] Dave Mable: but, uh, but nonetheless, you're right. It, it would be super cool. I, I feel like there's room for all of it. You know, if you, I feel like gravel cycling. An analogy is marathon or just running road

[00:39:06] Craig Dalton: Yep.

[00:39:07] Dave Mable: And, uh, anybody can sign up. You can do 5k, you can do the local 5K in your neighborhood and get a t-shirt. Or you can do like the world's largest 5K in, I don't know, Boulder, Colorado. That'd be a 10 K. But, um, same with marathons and uh, you know, Chicago Marathon. 30,000 people, the front line's up at the front and the mid packers line up at their pace and then they go run it.

And I feel like gravel's pretty similar.

[00:39:40] Craig Dalton: I do too. I think, I mean, I think that the moment in time to build a big race, like a thousand plus person race, it's difficult to find a spot on the calendar where that'll work.

[00:39:52] Dave Mable: mm-hmm.

[00:39:53] Craig Dalton: Um, today I do think there are, there are always gonna be geographic opportunities, right? Like if there's not a lot of racing in upstate New York, there's an opportunity for someone to create a great race in upstate new.

It's probably also important that the economics match up, right? So if, if you've got a, if you're gonna make, if a 200 person race is gonna be the size of your race, just understand that going in and don't overinvest, and you know, it's gonna have little, little bit more of a community feel and some of these major events that are spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in their product.

[00:40:27] Dave Mable: Yeah, it is kind of amazing having watched this happen. Everything from like the beginning I was in Trans Iowa, number two and uh, to full-time staff, full-time year round staff, multiple full-time year round staff running these gravel events. That's kind of crazy actually. Um, We can dissect the world of gravel forever.

But, uh, I wanna know more about your podcast. Um, you've got a co-host with Randall, and, uh, I'm curious how that works. Uh, how'd you find him? And, uh, how do you guys, how's it work between the two of you?

[00:41:08] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's a good question. So Randall and I got connected. Randall Jacobs is the founder of Thesis Spike and more recently Logos components, which making, uh, some great carbon wheels. He and I connected because he started that business in San Francisco. He was offering people demo rides of the bikes, and, uh, Randall was an ex specialized employee, helped design the original diverge.

I got to know him and appreciate his, his personality, his technical acumen. Um, ultimately ended up buying a thesis bike and riding one. So I transitioned from the open to the thesis. The thesis is a fraction of the price of the open.

[00:41:48] Dave Mable: Yeah.

[00:41:49] Craig Dalton: Incredibly capable. In fact, for anybody on video, it's the, the pink bike right behind me is my thesis.

Bicycle,

[00:41:56] Dave Mable: I love that pink bike.

[00:41:59] Craig Dalton: but very much like the open. Anyway, so, um, he and I just became friends and became people. We, we rode together. We, we saw many elements of the, the, the industry and the world. Similarly, I also recognize that Randall became my go-to guy for technical question.

[00:42:15] Dave Mable: guys

[00:42:16] Craig Dalton: And it started out, um, first did an episode about thesis bikes and got to know him a little bit, and then I invited him to do a gravel bike 1 0 1 episode.

So in kind of quizzing the community, what they were looking for, I realized, you know, a lot of time the starting point of our discussions on the podcast are a little bit more. I'll make the point that I absolutely endeavor to start at the beginning and try not to make too many assumptions, and I'm not trying to be a tech podcast at all.

Um, but I brought Randall on and I was able to, he and I were able to have a discussion of, what do you look for when you buy a bike? Let's break it down. Let's help the listener understand at the time in which we recorded the first one, what should you be thinking?

[00:43:03] Dave Mable: about?

[00:43:04] Craig Dalton: We did the same thing a year later because I felt like the industry kept changing and it was just this great thing to have in the podcast feed, you know, 2019 Gravel bike 1 0 1 episode.

Um, as he and I continued to communicate, it became clear, like there were probably some themes, some discussions, et cetera, with people in the industry that he was going to be a. Person to interview them with. So, Randall's episodes tend to either be more highly technical than mine. So for example, he did a great episode with Matt from Enduro Bend, uh, Barings.

Where, where they really kind of dug into ceramic and stainless steel bearings and the viscosities of oil and stuff. That's kind of, you know, I can sort of, I'm smart enough to be, you know, it sounds somewhat intelligent about, but I definitely don't know everything those, those guys and girls know. So I said I'm loose on that.

And then the other big thing he's super keen on is just community and the community of cycling and the, uh, frankly, the mental health value of cycling as an activity. Uh, and cycling the cycling community as something that, you know, we benefit from not only physiologically as athletes, but. Emotionally in that it, it, it does become this, this release for us when we get out there.

And it is one of the things that's always attracted me about riding Off Road is that, you know, you ride a technical section and you just stop and you wait for the next guy or girl to come through and High five 'em, whether they crash or clean it, it's just, it's the best feeling in the world.

[00:44:48] Dave Mable: No doubt, no doubt. I it really is. You mentioned community and you started a thing called the ridership. Uh, tell our listeners what it is and what's, why'd you start it?

What,

[00:45:03] Craig Dalton: Yeah, the the rider, the ridership, a free global cycling community. It has a sort of orientation towards gravel and adventure cyclists, but, Everybody's welcome. It serves two purposes. One, you know, I, I definitely wanted to have a, a easier back channel to me as a podcast host. I wanted people to be able to chat with me directly and, uh, but I also realized like I'm, I'm, I'm potentially a authority in the world of gravel cycling, but I'm not the a.

And to my earlier comments about, you know, my technical shortcomings, I realized that, you know, I had this amazing community of listeners that are very capable of interacting with ano one another and they have hundreds of different experiences than my own, or, or Randall's, for that matter. So we're basically built, uh, a community on Slack, and that may not be, Going forward platform, but Slack, for those who don't know, it's just a, a program or an application you can get on your computer or phone and we can sort of segment the conversations into what are called channels.

So we have a channel on tires, we have a channels on nutrition, and we have also have regional channels. And the vision was, you know, as gravel cyclists, when you're a road cyclist, it, it, to me, it seemed easy to find. Like I could go and there wasn't a lot of questions. Like as long as I knew the mileage and maybe the elevation gainer loss, like I kind of knew what I was gonna be pedalling on.

But gravel, I feel, I felt like you, you missed the real gems. Like it's easy for me to tell you to go up old railroad grade and come down here on Mount Tam, but I've got 20 different, you know, little paths that I can take you on that are gonna create those high five.

[00:46:53] Dave Mable: s

[00:46:53] Craig Dalton: And we all do. And I wanted, so if I go to Iowa, I want someone in Iowa to tell me where I should go gravel ride, and I wanna ask questions of them.

If I go to Europe, I wanna ask questions of someone who lives in the country that I'm visiting. So we started out with that basic premise that everybody's welcome. We've created this open platform that's free to use. Its devoid of any advertis. We, you know, I originally had like a Facebook group for the podcast, and it's like, I don't want to bring you into Facebook to have other ads shoved in your face.

I want you to get out on your damn bike. So we wanted something that was like, come talk about bikes to your heart, heart's content, then put it away. We're not looking to be part of the attention economy. I'm not. Monetize your attention. We're just trying to create this community where we can share, share, and exchange value.

[00:47:50] Dave Mable: can. Is it working?

[00:47:52] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it is, you know, we've got a, a pretty passionate group in there. There's probably, I haven't checked lately, but probably around 2000 people that participate in the forum. The channel, you know, every day you go in, the channels are lighting up from, you know, people. Having a mechanical question that they're getting someone more technical to answer, or we tend to get a, a bunch of like event organizers who get in the mix there saying, Hey, you know, Shasta gravel huggers coming up.

If you have any questions, I'm Ben, I'm the promoter. Just, you know, I'm happy I'm here to answer things like that. And then, you know, a lot of direct messaging, people sell stuff there to, you know, when they're getting rid of a bike or a wheel set or what have you. So yeah. Yeah, I would say it's working.

It's not my day job. So, you know, we've, I believe we've created a thoughtful structure. We don't, we haven't had any issues that we've needed to police. Everybody's self-selecting as someone who's just there for information and the enjoyment of the sport.

[00:48:51] Dave Mable: there. One of the, there are no rules in gravel, but one of the rules is don't be a dick. So maybe you have people who abide by the rules and are not dicks.

[00:49:04] Craig Dalton: That. That's pretty much it, and for anybody who's listening, it's just go to the the www.theridership.com and you'll get a free invite to join.

[00:49:13] Dave Mable: Perfect. I love it. I love it. So I want to ask a couple of podcast questions. Who is the guest that you were most surprised? Said yes.

[00:49:29] Craig Dalton: Uh, I'll answer this in two ways. I think Rebecca Rush was that guest and the, the second part of that is she could not be a nicer person.

[00:49:39] Dave Mable: correct. That is a true statement.

[00:49:43] Craig Dalton: Unbelievably engaging, inquisitive, generous with her time like. That's the one I point to that I just, one super stoked that she came on and two super stoked to see that she is every, she shows up in a podcast interview as much as she does on her social media.

[00:50:02] Dave Mable: on. Yeah. That's cool. That's kind of fun. What was a surprising moment for you with a guest?

[00:50:10] Craig Dalton: Gosh. I mean, I mean there's, there's sort of tricky moments, I think, in any podcast interview sometimes, you know, I don't, I don't do a lot of, um, like pre-show interviewing because it's conversational. Like I just generally want it to happen. I've had a few guests who weren't as. Verbose as I would like them to be.

[00:50:35] Dave Mable: or you have to like pull those words out of their mouth.

[00:50:40] Craig Dalton: Exactly. I mean, we're obviously an audio medium and, uh, you know, we need people to talk and we need people to tell stories. And, you know, I, I wouldn't invite someone on who I didn't think had an amazing story. I've just had a, a few odd occasions where, you know, they weren't good at telling their own.

[00:50:57] Dave Mable: occasions. Yeah. Yeah. I, I can relate to that. And only 50 some in, but, uh, yeah, you, you are right about that. Where, what's your vision? Where do you want it to go?

[00:51:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah. You know, I think, as I mentioned earlier, like I, I still am excited to pull the mic in front of me and have these conversations. Um, if I wasn't, I wouldn't keep doing.

[00:51:23] Dave Mable: a,

[00:51:23] Craig Dalton: scratches an itch for me. As we said earlier, like I've been around bikes and bike racing my entire life, and I do enjoy. Having a foothold in this world and the Gravel Ride Podcast has provided me, you know, opportunity to build an audience and build a community and build relationships within the bicycle industry.

I'm fortunate enough that I've got a handful of sponsors that'll come in and help me pay for some of the overhead of the podcast, and on a rare occasion, you know, give me an opportunity. Go to an event or attend something that otherwise might be difficult to get into. And that, you know, that, that to me was the in, in my mind when I started the podcast.

That was the reward I was looking for since I'm going to be involved in this sport anyway, having a little perks here and there and, and opportunities because of the, the hours and hours of effort that I put into this podcast seemed like a fair, fair.

[00:52:25] Dave Mable: fair, yeah. I actually had somebody ask me today, is this your full-time gig?

[00:52:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:52:32] Dave Mable: So Craig, is this your full-time gig

[00:52:34] Craig Dalton: you don't really understand the economics if you're asking that question.

[00:52:37] Dave Mable: You're right. No, I did not win the, was it the Powerball $1.1 billion thing? I did not win that.

[00:52:46] Craig Dalton: right. Any of you think about it? You mentioned when we were offline about some recent interviews we've been doing with cycling media. Uh, journalists and, you know, with outside laying off a bunch of staff and a bunch of publications, kind of grappling with what the future of media is. You know, I've always felt very blessed in the fact that I, the podcast has never had to provide income for my family.

It has never had to put food on the table because that, that's complicated. I mean, the economics don't really work out. For this could not be a full-time position for me. And I am, I'm certainly empathetic to the plight of people who have dedicated their lives to become proper journalists, um, and who are struggling to sort of make ends meet in this current environment.

[00:53:38] Dave Mable: Yeah, it's, uh, it's definitely a challenge. I actually was editor of a actual paper magazine that was printed on real life paper and you like, sat on the toilet and read it. Um,

[00:53:54] Craig Dalton: Love it.

[00:53:56] Dave Mable: And I feel like I am a Cartwright in 1912 when people are st starting to buy the, the Ford model A or whatever, and that I'm seeing the writing on the wall that like, in a few years, there will be no more Cartwrights.

[00:54:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, I, I think it's a super difficult transition because, I mean, the obvious answer is like, consumers should pay for the content that they consume, whether it's audio or the written word, but the, frankly, like even if there's a willingness to do that, the mechanisms to do so are still klugy and create, you know, the minor hurdles for people to get over.

Right. Do I want to get out my credit card to read a particular article that I, you know, became exposed to? N no. But if it was like embedded into my web pay, like into my web browser, like this micro transaction that could be made simple, like I would, I would do that. So I'm sort of, I'm stuck in that, like there are definitely content channels that I pay for, but there are certainly other bits of content that I enjoy consuming.

That I like the mechanisms for paying for them. Just the, the friction's just too much for me to do. So, and you know, you, you as podcasters, we see this all the time, right? We, we occupy this very intimate place with the listener, right? We, we've spending, they spend an hour a week with us. And if you think about like that, that attention that we're, we're fortunate enough to garner from our listeners, that's a massive amount.

Attention. People know a a lot about me from the years of podcasting and my myself on the mic. Yet

[00:55:46] Dave Mable: Yet

[00:55:47] Craig Dalton: it's very difficult for anybody to figure out how to compensate me for their appreciation of my words.

[00:55:53] Dave Mable: Right, right. They could buy you a coffee.

[00:55:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah, indeed. Yes. That's a little, I appreciate the plug, Dave. I mean, I have, I've always had this sort. Super modest, buy me a coffee account, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. And I mean, I'm always like super appreciative if someone takes a moment and does that cuz it's not, it's not first and foremost, it's sort of like something I do mention, but I, I don't push it and I don't have a, like a, a really elaborate Patreon program that allows you to get bonus episodes.

And if I had more time, I would love to do that. Cause I, I. A hundred percent like to provide more value for those people who, who are supporting me.

[00:56:35] Dave Mable: yeah, I send, uh, my supporters as sticker. So it's, I mean, it's something, but you're right, it's, it's, it's a treat to get an email that says, uh, Hey, somebody bought you a coffee. Like, ah, that's super nice because it's, I mean, they do have to log on and they do have to like, get out their credit card and punch a bunch of things on their computer and push send and, and, uh, it's time outta their day to show their appreciation for what, what you're doing and, and what you're bringing them.

And you're right. Uh, an hour a week and we're like, Like drilled into people's heads through their ears. Like that's,

[00:57:14] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:57:14] Dave Mable: that's, uh, that's privileged space and time, isn't it?

[00:57:21] Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure. And I will say like, I think just to give the listeners some perspective, I think for every hour we publish probably is three hours of combined effort to kind of get to that hour. That's, that's sort of my, like back of the envelope math around like the effort it takes to kind of produce the podcast.

[00:57:39] Dave Mable: Yeah, I feel like you're more efficient than me.

[00:57:45] Craig Dalton: I mean either that Dave or my editing is, is really low pro.

[00:57:49] Dave Mable: Oh, I don't know. You should listen to the podcast I dropped today. There was a moment where I just drew a blank in this conversation and I said to the guy, I was like, you ever like just have a blank moment and you can't come up with whatever you're gonna say?

And he's like, yeah. And I was like, yeah, it sucks cuz I did not want to edit this and I'm gonna have to. And then as I was listening to it, as I was editing, I'm leaving that in there. Like, that's raw me. I'm leaving that in there. So I

[00:58:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I do have to say Dave, like I, I, I had that issue early on in the podcast where I felt like I wasn't eloquent enough and I wanted to go in and edit everything out. And, you know, eventually I came to the conclusion like, the, the effort is not worth the. Meaning like people came for this kind of raw conversation and the fact that I may have stumbled over my words, et cetera, like that's just part of the conversation and yeah, just gotta go with it.

[00:58:48] Dave Mable: Yeah. And it's, it's a, okay, uh, Don, uh, Dan Patrick says, um, quite a bit,

[00:58:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:58:55] Dave Mable: you know what I mean?

[00:58:57] Craig Dalton: exactly.

[00:58:58] Dave Mable: Well listen, we've been, uh, just about an hour. I really have enjoyed getting to know you face to face here. I'd love to meet you on the bike sometime, whether I make it to Cal, California, whether you make it to Iowa or we meet somewhere in between.

Uh, do you have any big rides planned this year?

[00:59:18] Craig Dalton: I'm still like, I'm still thinking about my schedule and I probably spend too much time thinking about that. This is the off that one of those positive offshoots of like, I feel like I have the opportunity. If I, if I'm, if I can afford it and get the time off from the family and work, like, there's a ton of things that I can do.

Um, and I, I need to get my head around here in January, like, what are the things I really wanna advocate for myself? There's a few races that I'm super keen to do. One being Rebecca's private Idaho. The second being, uh, the Oregon Trail gravel grinder. The weeklong stage. Both, you know, super great reputations.

I love the idea of multiple day events because I feel like when you travel to go do one of these events, um,

[01:00:10] Dave Mable: events,

[01:00:11] Craig Dalton: you're taking up the time anyway, so you might as well ride and enjoy that area for multiple days versus popping in, being super anxious about a race and then just doing that race. So I'm really trying to think about that.

I had the great fortune of going to Jer with track travel in November, and that was fantastic. So I'm super bullish on like just the general idea of gravel travel. So, Long answer to your question, definitely you'll see me at at at a handful of events this year, and definitely like I hope to do at least one cycling vacation type trip.

[01:00:46] Dave Mable: Ah, very. Very cool. Well, you're, you're welcome to come out and put your 28 millimeter road tires on and do rag Bry with us. It's a fifth 50th anniversary of Rag Bry and I'm an old hat at Rag Bry, so if you want to come out and spend a week riding on the road and eating pie drinking beer, that's about it.

That's about what we do. Ride our bikes. Eat pine, drink beer. Uh, you're always

[01:01:13] Craig Dalton: uh, I appreciate that, Dave. I've had a couple Iowans on the podcast talking about various events there, and gosh, we, there's so many places to go. I would love to end up in Iowa, one of these years.

[01:01:24] Dave Mable: Yeah. Well, you, you've got a, a friendly face here and you got my number, so look me up. Yep.

[01:01:30] Craig Dalton: Right on.

[01:01:31] Dave Mable: All right. Well thanks tons and, uh, good luck with the pod. Say hey to Randall. Tell 'em I enjoy listening to, uh, his conversations as well as yours and keep up the good work.

[01:01:41] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I definitely will, and it was a pleasure being on the show, Dave. I appreciate what you're doing.

[01:01:45] Dave Mable: I, uh, I appreciate that you're, uh, a good, um, role model for me.

[01:01:49] Craig Dalton: Chairs.

So that's going to do it for this week's conversation. Big, thanks to Dave Mabel for having me on bike. Talk with Dave. I hope you as a loyal listener, enjoyed getting to know me a little bit better. If you have any questions about the things that I've done or want to get connected with me. I encourage you to join the ridership. That's simply www.theridership.com.

That's a free global cycling community. We created to connect gravel and adventure, cyclists. From all around the world.

So I think we'll leave it at that this week. And as always until next time. Here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.

On this week's episode, Stephen Frothingham, Editor in Chief of Bicycle Retailer & Industry News at Outside, Inc, joins Randall to share his unique perspective on bicycle industry dynamics in general and the bike shop and OEM ecosystem in particular. Steve is an industry veteran who approaches his work with a warmth and curiosity we've long appreciated, and his reporting continues to serve as an influential resource for all of us who work in the space.

Episdoe sponsor: Dynamic Cyclist (Promo code THEGRAVELRIDE for 15% off)

Support the Podcast

Join The Ridership

Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I'm going to hand the microphone over to my co-host Randall Jacobs. Who's got Steven Frothingham editor and chief of bicycle retailer and industry news on the show to discuss his unique perspective on bicycle industry dynamics. The general bike shop and OEM ecosystem in particular, Steve is an industry veteran who approaches his work with warmth and curiosity that is so appreciated. His reporting continues to serve as an influential resource to everyone who works in the bicycle retail space.

I think you'll get a lot out of this episode, learning a little bit more of the ins and outs of the industry as it all trickles down and has an effect. On us as riders. Before we jump in, I do need to thank this week. Sponsor, dynamic cyclist.

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They've created hundreds and hundreds of different stretching routines to focus on different parts of the body that affect your performance as a cyclist. It's something for me that has become super important. I've been following the routine since around November last year, really specifically to work on lower back strengthening, but it found that I'm much more disciplined knowing that I've got these 15 to 20 minute episodes always available to me, both streaming from their website or also available from the app.

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Use the code, the gravel ride to get that 15% off, just put it in the coupon code [email protected]. When you check out,

If that sounds like it's up your alley, I hope you give it a try again. They've got that free one week trial. So why the hell not. With that said, I'm going to hand the microphone off to my co-host Randall Jacobs. And jump right into this conversation with Steven Frothingham.

[00:03:11] Randall:

You're an old hand in the bike industry in the journalism space.

Give us a little bit of background about that.

[00:03:17] steve: , know, I started at Brain, I think I was the first editor hired back in think 92. And then I left and worked for the Associated Press twice and then came back into the bike industry to work for, be News for a few years. Uh, left them, went back to Brain, and then the company that owned Be News bought Brain. I ended up back in that same company again, which became outside. So it, yeah, it kind of feels like, uh, even though I don't work for ERs again, I feel like I'm back with the same crew. Uh, I literally was in the same, same desk, same office for a little while. So, uh, that, that seems to be, seems to be the pattern in my career here.

[00:03:55] Randall: Just to clarify for our listeners, brain is bicycle retailer where you are currently, uh, editor-in-chief. Correct.

[00:04:01] steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:03] Randall: Tell us a little bit about the nature of that publication. So what role does it serve in the industry?

[00:04:09] steve: well, when we started it in 92, you know, the full name is Bicycle Retailer and Industry News. And, uh, the, and was important back then because the, um, the other trade magazines, and believe it or not, there were three others back then were all print magazines. We were the fourth. Um, but they had this real focus on. Kind of this old school dealer thing, like, you know, we're gonna profile this retailer this month. We're gonna do a story on, know, uh, how to hire kids for the summer. We're gonna do a story about how to display your tires. Um, and we're not really gonna write about the industry, the supplier side. So we came along and we were bicycle retailer and industry news. And we used to kinda joke that what we're doing is reporting. We're telling the retailers what the, uh, suppliers are doing to them this month. Um, which is maybe a little bit too cynical, but we, we reported on what the industry was doing. We reported the news of what the supplier side was doing for the most part, which is what the retailers want to read. Um, most retailers, they might say that they'd like to read a story about how to merchandise their tires, but that's kind of broccoli. You know what they were, what really wanna, wanna have is the, uh, the steak and potatoes of, uh, finding out what one of their suppliers, uh, just bought another company or just went bankrupt or just switched factories in Taiwan or, or something like that.

And that's the kinda stuff that the, uh, the other titles we're not doing back in the nineties, which is why, uh, this is gonna bring out the competitive bike racer jerk in me. But we, we put the other three out of business in three or four years, I think. Um, it wasn't very long before Brain was the only, uh, industry title in the US and, um, to some extent we're still doing the same thing.

Obviously we've had to adapt to social media and the internet, which didn't exist when, when we started the magazine. But, um, we're still doing the same thing. We, we focus on news and, um, You know, we like to do some, we like to profile important retailers once in a while, but for the most part, uh, we still report on what the supplier side is doing with the knowledge that most of our readers are, uh, are retailers independent?

[00:06:37] Randall: I actually hadn't appreciated that you were on the founding team for bicycle retailer. So can you share a little bit more about that and who else was involved and how that came to be?

[00:06:47] steve: Well, I didn't have an investment unfortunately. Uh, I was, I think I was 22 years old or something, so I was just the first hired gun there. Uh, mark, who still writes for us, was the founding editor, uh, and a partner early on. There was another partner named Bill Sandler, who, uh, passed away quite a few years ago now. Uh, so Mark and Bill were, were really the founders um, Uh, I think they hired a, uh, an office lady named Kathy, and then they hired me. And, uh, that was kind of the start of the fun and, um, you know, and then the company went through various different ownerships, uh, some of which happened when, after I left, when I was, uh, outside the bike world for while. Uh, sometimes I forget it went through three or four different ownerships. Uh, when I came back it was owned by Nielsen of the famous Nielsen Ratings Nielsen, which, uh, owned, uh, trade shows including interbike. And, uh, we were actually operated by the National Bicycle Dealers Association, the nonprofit dealer trade group. Um, so we were owned by Nielsen, which was kind of renamed as Emerald Expositions. Uh, so I think my paycheck came from, now my paycheck came from the Mbda a you know, we went through quite a few years of being run by a very small nonprofit trade association. And then, and then it changed hands. Uh, M BDA a had some financial problems and, uh, we were not exactly helping things. So, uh, we got handed off to, uh, what was then called Pocket Outdoor Media, the company that owned Velo News. They owned Velo Press Draft, fleet Magazine. At that point, uh, Robin Thurston was a minority investor, I believe, in pocket outdoor media. And then, uh, you know, about a year or so after, uh, brain became part of that group, became the ceo, um, started raising money to buy a whole bunch of titles, which you've probably heard about, including Pink Bike Cycling Tips, um, some, uh, some bike events in Colorado.

And then eventually the big purchase was raising the money to buy outside Magazine. And, um, company Pocket Outdoor Media was, I think, I think Robin had actually hired a marketing company to come up with a new name for Pocket Outdoor Media, because people thought Pocket Outdoor Media was a billboard company. Uh, and the sales reps didn't like that. Uh, so they were, you know, doing the marketing thing of, of bouncing all these ideas off the wall, coming, trying to come up with a new idea and a new name. And then after they bought Outside magazine, they're like, well, why don't we just, you know, renamed the company outside? we became outside, which things have been moving very quickly. It's, you know, it's a big change for me moving from for a very tiny, little underfunded non-profit trade association from bicycle shops N bda, to working for this multi billion dollar startup basically a tech company. Um, change. And that's why the, the time, you know, I mean, I think back it seems like, you know, a decade ago, but it's only been like two and half years.

[00:10:23] Randall: So Robin Thurston is the current c e o of outside the group. And he previously founded is it, uh, map my.

[00:10:31] steve: Map my ride, map my run my companies, sold to Under Armor.

[00:10:35] Randall: I think that was like 160 million acquisition or something. I remember having this number offhand because it was part of my pitch deck for another company that I was trying to raise money for. It's like, oh here's a comparison point of this company that was acquired in the space.

[00:10:50] steve: Yeah, I mean map where I was kind of ahead of the curve with doing some of the stuff that Strava's doing now, and uh, now and outside. We have Gaia, which is a, mapping app that's primarily used by hikers and skiers. And then trail Forks, which was developed by Pink Bike as a mapping app mostly for mountain bikers.

[00:11:12] Randall: It's quite well regarded of, of seen in some of the forums. People are very keen on that particular application in the quality of the routes there

[00:11:19] steve: are really good. They do have their niches. I use Gaia for backcountry skiing and it, it works really well. And it's, uh, uh, you know, we could go way down a rabbit hole, but you know, why I choose to use Gaia when I'm skiing and why I use trail forks when I'm mountain biking and why I use, don't know what else when I'm road biking.

I don't know. But, you know, each has its own, uh, its own advantages in different spaces. So, yeah. Robin, made his fortune, I think, fair to say, selling that company to, uh, under Armour. And then he worked for Under Armour for a while. I think he was the Chief Technology Officer at Under Armor, uh, left and did some other stuff, and then eventually came back to this group.

[00:12:02] Randall: So you started when you were 22, essentially first hire for bicycle retailer, this fledgling industry magazine with a particular point of view that resonated with dealers. What drew you to this particular space? You studied journalism in college. Were you an avid cyclist?

[00:12:18] steve: Yeah. All that. Yeah. Uh, I was a cyclist. From day one, I started in B BMX when I was a little turd. Uh, I'm definitely, I'm totally of that age now where, you know, I'm 55 now and I go to the shows and I see these retro BMX bikes that some of the companies are doing. My light up, oh, there's that red that I wanted when I was, now I buy it. I've resisted so far, but yeah, I started in bmx. I did mountain bike races back in the eighties and road racing and, and, uh, and yeah, then I, I got a journalism degree and I did work completely outside the bike world for about 10 years, the Associated Press, covering presidential politics in New Hampshire where the presidential primary is a big deal.

So that was really fun. I think I covered three or four primaries in New Hampshire. Plus the usual AP stuff of plane crashes and lost hikers and syrup and lost mooses and stuff like that.

[00:13:18] Track 1: Standard, Northeast Fair.

[00:13:19] steve: Yeah. Typical New Hampshire stuff.

[00:13:21] Track 1: And remind me where you grew up.

[00:13:24] steve: in New England. Uh, I was born just a little north of where you are in Salisbury, Massachusetts. And, uh, my family moved up into New Hampshire when I was a teenager. And then when I came back, when I worked for the Associated Press, I lived in Wolfborough, New Hampshire for about 10 years.

[00:13:38] Track 1: So you and I when we chat tend to go off in various tangents so, where would you like to go? Or, or we can start with the email that you sent me yesterday about shaman cues.

[00:13:49] steve: yeah. I could interview you on that. What do you know?

[00:13:52] Track 1: Well, you're the one, the inside line. Yeah. You saw the press release.

[00:13:56] steve: the inside line yet. You know, I'm just starting my research and I'm, I'm going to Taiwan next week, so hopefully I'll learn a lot more over there. But, it looks like a fairly significant development, this cues thing. I was sitting through a, I think it was an hour long video recording from Shaman about it yesterday. And, I got antsy halfway through and started calling people and emailing people, and, uh, video was moving too slowly. So like, I need some more need. I need to check in with some people around the industry here to see what they think.

[00:14:27] Track 1: For those listening, shaman released a new, not just group set, but family of group sets on their kind of entry to entry, mid-level. And, it's significant for reasons that go beyond simply, here's some new parts.

They have a reputation for using constantly varying standards and interfaces and pull ratios, which is the ratio of cable pull to, gear shifting. so how much cable pulls results in how much movement of the derailer constantly varying that, not just year to year, but from group to group in order to avoid cross compatibility with third party components and even within their own groups so that brands don't mix and match.

Say you want a higher end quote unquote, set of levers connected to a lower injury derail because you don't see the value in the higher end derailer. Well, they preclude that by adjusting the pull ratios from group to group. And so what they've done with cues is make it such.

The pull ratio is the same across all the groups, even with different speeds. And the thing that the major differentiator between the different levels is the number of years. the cog spacing in the back is the same. , and I think that that's quite significant. and it signals something too. I think it's very much in favor of riders. And it helps shops as well. I think it helps the industry more generally, but it's also indicative of a shift in the power dynamic in the bike industry. , in many ways is the new shaman, they're in the ascendant. They have, , a number of standards that they have put out there that have gotten adoption, that they have defended through patents and, in some cases, litigation

and so I, I view it in the context of, innovation and competitiveness in the bike industry.

[00:16:09] steve: Yeah, that makes sense. I think even Shaman used the word realistic, meaning that the new groups, they like to say that the technology that makes them special is in the cogs. Not in the chain. not so much in the crank set or the derailer. which allows mix and match

so if somebody wants to spec a cassette, whether it's, Nine, 10 or 11 speed with a different crank, with a different chain, it'll still work okay, because there's nothing, it doesn't require any kind of special chain and the, the magic isn't in the chain. It's in the cassettes. So yeah, I think it's more realistic. I mean, obviously the development of this began before the pandemic and the part shortage that was through the pandemic. But, what happened in the pandemic with all these, new third party, fourth party parts coming up, getting a second look, people taking a second look at, whether it's micro shift or, uh, tetra breaks or whatever.

Anything they can get. this really kind of seals the deal. This kind of tells you that, , For the next few years, we're probably gonna see more and more of these mixed groups, at least at the lower price. this is all below 1 0 5 on the road, below Dior, 12 speed or 11 speed on the mountain bike side. So everything that was cheaper than Dior and down on the mountain bike, everything that was cheaper than 1 0 5 is now queues

[00:17:39] Randall: Which is to say en entry level to, uh, lower mid-level stuff, which is also good stuff. They have, clutch derails 11 speed. It does look to be quality components.

[00:17:49] steve: Yep.

[00:17:50] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:17:50] steve: it's not the electric shifting, it's not the 12 speed.

[00:17:52] Track 1: Oh, of course not. No. That, that stuff's still locked down. So, um, in fact, uh,

[00:17:58] steve: is a di two group as part of this, as the, um, more, more for the mountain bike, E mountain bike group, there's a DI two.

[00:18:06] Track 1: presumably sharing a battery, I haven't dived into that yet. Um,

[00:18:11] steve: the one that has the uh, uh, the front freewheeling system and the antilock brakes that they launched at Eurobike last year.

[00:18:18] Track 1: got it.

[00:18:19] steve: Yeah.

[00:18:20] Track 1: Yeah, it's, it's interesting. You, you'll, you may recall that in the past I was looking to, uh, create an open platform for bicycle electronics, and. And was trying to corral the support of that. Um, all those third parties that, that Taiwan vendor base that was shut out of the theam shaman duopoly. Um, I think, uh, probably a little bit before its time.

Uh, certainly the, the appetite wasn't there for investments. Um, there was, there was interest, but not in, not any investment dollars coming in from the Taiwan side at that time. Uh, but since then we've seen, I mean, electronic is, well now you have a protocol that you can lock down and so you don't have to vary.

It used to be that you vary pull ratios or some sort of mechanical, mechanical interface between components. Now you lock down the communication protocol and the power grid, and in that way you, you constrain interoperability between components from third parties. . Uh, and then you have a lot of patents around the grifter, which is, um, I would argue the, the center, the nexus of power in the bicycle industry, um, is arguably the road grifter, the road brake shift lever.

And with it now, the, you know, the, the cas and, uh, you know, with electronic, the electronic protocol, power grid, things like that. Because if you control, you know, even if you just control all, you've patented every single way that you can make a lever swing,

[00:19:47] steve: Right.

[00:19:48] Track 1: and you know, and that, and then now you control this lever, well, that lever dictates that the caliper has to be from the same.

Producer as well, because of safety reasons. You can't mix and match a caliper with a different hydraulic brake system. And then for the electronic, same deal, you know, it controls like you, you just have a closed protocol and nobody else can connect with that. And now you control the interfaces between the levers, the cas, the derails, um, and the bike itself.

And now you can dictate, you know, we, we want this particular break interface. And so we see, you know, uh, flat mounts and so on. We see the new universal derail your hangar, uh, that STR introduced, which I haven't, I haven't gone deep on the patent yet, but I, I wonder, do you know if that precludes other companies from attaching a derailer in the same way if they, if they forego that universal hangar?

[00:20:45] steve: No, I think Sharon's being pretty open with, with giving licenses to it, but I dunno about other third party. I mean, and at what point are we gonna have another, you know, swam shaman lawsuit, like from back in the eighties or nineties, whenever that was, that the bundling, you know? So at what point did the electronic, um, protocols become open source because of an antitrust law?

The antitrust lawsuit? I think it's unlikely. Cause I don't know who would challenge 'em at this point.

[00:21:18] Track 1: it's, uh, the bike co.

[00:21:20] steve: you got something planned.

[00:21:21] Track 1: Um, you know, we're, we're a tiny little blip on, on the grander, um, bike industry and, uh, you know,

[00:21:29] steve: 1991.

[00:21:30] Track 1: yeah. Well, so is it, is it true or, or answer this however you like? Um, I have, I wasn't around, um, for. At the time that that was happening. And so I get, I have second in hand information from people who were there or were adjacent to it.

And then I have what I've read, but my understanding is, um, so was originally grip shift. Grip shift had a different way, uh, twisting the grip on a flat bar lever to shift a rear dera and Shao would try to preclude compatibility by again, changing the pull ratios so that Sam's grip shift wouldn't work with their deras.

But then also by having these bundling deals where they go to a bike company, an o e m, uh, original equipment manufacturer. So in this case, like thesis is a, my company is an o e em specializes an no e em truck as no em, and would say, okay, you can buy these components individually, but if you buy the complete group set I e you don't buy's thing, then you get a 20% discount.

I think is, is what it was.

[00:22:35] steve: Could be.

[00:22:36] Track 1: yeah, and there was an antitrust suit that STR filed against Shaman, um, and STR one. And as I understand it, that essentially funded Sam's early rise. That's the reason why we have STR in many ways.

[00:22:51] steve: all. I mean, I think there's some other money behind

[00:22:53] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:22:54] steve: uh, yeah, that's always been sort of the, uh, the, uh, the urban myth. I don't know the, the STR used that money to go out and, you know, buy all, all the things that they've bought. Rock shocks, true native, um, zip

[00:23:11] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:12] steve: whatever. And, uh, sax, which nobody really remembers now, but that was a pretty significant purchase. Uhs, not Richard Sax the, uh, frame builder from Connecticut, but, uh, sax of Germany, which, uh, made all the internal hubs and also made derailers and stuff,

[00:23:29] Track 1: And chains too. Right? Because I think.

[00:23:31] steve: chains, um, became s chains, which became Ram chains. Um,

[00:23:37] Track 1: are still made in Portugal, I believe.

[00:23:39] steve: I think so,

[00:23:40] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:23:41] steve: so yeah, they, they acquired that factory.

Haven't, you know, chain factory is no small thing. And, um, anyway, that's always been the, you know, um, the rumor Yeah. Is that they used that cash settlement or, or judgment from Shaman to fund those. Uh, I don't know how true that is. Like I said, I know that there is some other money behind Swam and there still is. Um, some of those companies that they bought were, uh, pretty distressed

[00:24:12] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:13] steve: You know, rock Jocks had had an IPO that, uh, were living at the top of the world there for a couple years

[00:24:19] Track 1: The mountain bike. The mountain bike. Boom.

[00:24:22] steve: Yeah. And then that kind of crashed and that's about when, when into the Suspension Fork business.

[00:24:28] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:24:30] steve: So they've been pretty savvy about the, uh, the acquisitions they made Mo most of which were back, back in the nineties. Although, what have they bought recently? They bought,

[00:24:40] Track 1: Hammerhead.

[00:24:42] steve: hammerhead.

[00:24:43] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:24:44] steve: one.

[00:24:44] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:24:45] steve: Yeah. And, uh, and the Power Meter company. I don't, the power tab, which they kinda put

[00:24:51] Track 1: cork.

[00:24:52] steve: then,

[00:24:52] Track 1: Cork, um, was power meters. Um,

[00:24:55] steve: power Tap, which they bought from cs,

[00:24:58] Track 1: oh, that's right.

[00:24:59] steve: what was

[00:25:00] Track 1: Uh, shocks.

[00:25:02] steve: Jacquez

[00:25:03] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:25:04] steve: and uh, what was the other one I was gonna say they bought something else. Oh, time pedals.

[00:25:14] Track 1: Hmm. So that really gives them, you know, a lot of different, um, components and IP that they can then, uh, interconnect through that. The access, uh, protocol, which is a closed, I believe, ZigBee based, um, protocol. Um, and so, you know, getting back to, you know, open versus closed standards and ecosystems and things like that, um, it seems to be the trend in the industry as, as always to, um, to have walled gardens.

[00:25:41] steve: Yeah. And that's been fun. You know, it was fun to see when, when Hammerhead, was, had had some di I two integration that Shaman shut him down

[00:25:53] Track 1: Yep.

[00:25:54] steve: on after Bottom, which was, um, some pretty good industry gossip right there. Um, but yeah, I mean, everybody, it's been really fun speculating about what's gonna happen, you know, with RAM owning, uh, you know, the power meter company owning a pedal company, owning a, you know, power tap, which made, which used to make power meter pedals. Um, and then owning a, a head unit GPS company on top of that. And then, like you said, the whole integration with access and, uh, it's pretty fun.

[00:26:26] Track 1: Yeah, it's the full stack in a way. I mean,

[00:26:28] steve: them battling, you know, setting up this not only with Shaman, but with, with, uh, with Fox Factory also.

[00:26:38] Track 1: I'm waiting to, for, it seems very natural that a next step for them would to be, would be to buy, say a, a company that makes home trainers or even a company that does training software that, um, they might not want to go direct head-to-head with Swift, cuz Wif has such a dominant position in that space and they don't want to alienate them or get shut off of that platform.

But, um, it seems like a natural next step to get into this burgeoning home cycling, uh, space, which granted has. Tapered off a little bit since, you know, post pandemic, but I think is still, you're, you know, there's a whole, there's a whole range of cyclists who primarily ride at home and are doing competitions in virtual worlds, and I don't think that that's going to change as the technology gets better.

[00:27:22] steve: Yeah.

[00:27:24] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:27:24] steve: Yeah, that would make sense. I'm sure there's been all sorts of conversations and there's been a couple brands that have come and gone, um, that, uh, you know, maybe, uh, ceramic has kind of hit its lip and said, no, we're, we're not gonna bid on that one. Or we're not gonna, we're not gonna overpay for that one.

I don't know. But, you know, you can look at the, the number of indoor brands that have, uh, had financial problems in the last, uh, year and a half, and, uh, even once before that, that just disappeared. Um, have you seen a kinetic trainer on the market in a couple years? I.

[00:28:02] Track 1: Yeah. So what else do you see happening in the bike industry? Um, so obviously parts shortages were the big story during the pandemic. Now we have, uh, parts being, you know, liquidated through various channels and presumably is that's going to accelerate, uh, post Taipei show coming up in, uh, in Taiwan in, uh, the end of March

[00:28:25] steve: Yeah, I think so. I think there's still some, some shortages I hear on the road bike component side. I guess you'd know more about that than, than I would. Um,

[00:28:34] Track 1: saying group sets or.

[00:28:37] steve: yeah, and, and the bikes that those group sets. Hang on. You know, I think, um, know, if you talk to dealers, it's, uh, yeah, they have all the $900 mountain bikes.

They can, they can eat, uh, or even I think the 1500, $1,900 bikes, but the, um, the mid to high price mountain bikes are, are a little bit harder to get. And I think also the, um, mid to high price road bikes are hard to get. And, um, and there's kind of a shortage of, there's kind of a dearth of, of. Of really affordable road bikes.

[00:29:13] Track 1: Hmm.

[00:29:14] steve: I think, uh, there's not a lot of groups there, you know, I mean, tram's got and then, you know, shaman hasn't been, had a real good road group, uh, below 1 0 5 for years. So, you know, it'd be interesting and see how cues affects, affects that.

[00:29:34] Track 1: Well, and their, their transition to 12 speed too. Um, and they had a, a factory catch on fire just before the pandemic, right.

[00:29:43] steve: Yeah. What was that? It was a, was it like an ANOT factory or something? I know they were making some real high end stuff. Like they were making like the xtr crank, you know, when, when Xtr went to 12 speed, I think they couldn't get a crank for it for like two years. Right.

[00:29:59] Track 1: Hmm.

[00:29:59] steve: they were like, relabeling, theor, xt cranks. people were pissed about and Uh, yeah, I don't know. It it's, yeah. Fires in the bike in factory fires in the bike industry. That's, that's been, uh, yeah, that's been a gossipy thing going back, you know, 50 years. I think you can get some old timers telling you about famous fires and how they couldn't get such and such for, for five years after that fire.

And sometimes I wonder much of it's urban myth, you know, and people just blaming things on their inability to produce stuff. They blame it on a factory fire. Didn't you hear about that? Come on. Giant factory burned out last year. And uh, I think especially before the internet, who would check, you know, it's like, ah, I don't know.

I heard that like the van sneaker factory burned down last year. Didn't you hear about that? That's why I can't get those van sneakers I've been looking for. before the internet it was pretty hard to look that up. Now it's a little bit easier, you know?

[00:30:55] Randall: Now you've been, so I think probably both of us have been talking to a lot of dealers lately for different reasons. Um, with, with me, we've been building out our, our dealer network for our logo spiel program. Um, and I'm curious to hear, I'll share a little bit about what I've been hearing and I'm curious how that, um, relates to, you know, some of the things that you've been hearing from dealers.

So some of the things I've heard is, um, well one, you have, uh, essentially you weren't able to get product for a long time. A lot of dealers over ordered or ordered the same thing from multiple sources, hoping to get it from somewhere, um, sooner rather than later. And then all of it got dumped on the, on dealers in the fall and over the winter at exactly the time when.

you know, nothing is selling generally, it's, it's the, the doldrums of the, the bike, uh, selling season and cycling season in North America anyways. But then also, you know, people, uh, with, with the country opening up post covid, um, you know, the bike boom was, was coming to an end and it wasn't clear. You know, where things will, you know, how that will level off and how much lag there will be, where everyone who got a b wanted a bike, got a bike and you know, the, you know, at at what point and, and you know, the secondhand market will start coming down in price and that'll become more compelling.

So how long will it take for this lag of, of certain types of components to work its way through the space? Um, and it's been interesting too, you see, um, an ex, am I right that there's an acceleration of the big brands buying shops?

[00:32:27] steve: Uh, depends on what time scale you're looking at. I, you know, I don't, I think, um, I think that's slowed down in the last six months or, or nine months. There was a big acceleration, you know, in, in 21, especially, uh, I think it was 21 when, you know, track had been buying shops left and right. Uh, specialized had not.

[00:32:50] Track 1: Yep.

[00:32:51] steve: um, when Mike's bikes sold to, uh, to pawn in, I think, I wanna say that was 2021.

[00:32:59] Track 1: Pawn being the owner of, uh, Cervelo Santa Cruz and a handful of other brands. And Mike Spikes being a big multi-store chain, mostly in, in the NorCal, um, you know, bay Area. Yeah,

[00:33:12] steve: Yeah. And they were the, I think the single biggest specialized dealer in the country and one of the, or maybe the most important markets in the country, the

[00:33:19] Track 1: I think, I think Eric's was their biggest, I think Mike's bikes was number two.

[00:33:24] steve: could

[00:33:24] Track 1: but certainly the Bay Area is huge and a lot of, um, you see a lot of. S works, you know, $15,000 bikes rolling around the Bay Area.

[00:33:35] steve: Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot more of the high end stuff than, than Eric's sell, I'm sure.

[00:33:40] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:33:41] steve: Um, and it did, and it did kind of seem like Specialized had all their eggs in that basket. Um, they didn't have a lot of other dealers. It was just Eric. I mean, uh, Mike's just ruled the rot anyway, so Yeah. Specialized really woke up. Uh, that was, that was the wake up call for Mike Ard was, oh my God, we're, we're losing our distribution. Um, and it came on, they lost some other big dis uh, big retail distributions like, uh, um, ables in, in, uh, hill Abel down in Austin, Texas, which was a huge specialized dealer that Trek walked in and bought, um, all of a sudden specialized, lost its biggest dealer in Austin, Texas, which is another, you know, another one of the handful of very biggest markets in the country.

[00:34:27] Track 1: And growing, growing rapidly with a lot of deep pocketed folks as well who tend to buy their, their high-end stuff. Yeah.

[00:34:34] steve: So all of a sudden specialized, uh, said we've gotta get into buying shops. And, uh, they were running around buying a lot of shops. Um, I think they did not have the system set up that Trekk did for, uh, processing these shops once they had acquired 'em. Uh, so it was a little bit more chaotic, whereas I think Trekk had built up to it slowly and they had, you know, from what the stories I've heard of, you know, TREKK has these SWAT teams that come in when they buy a shop.

You know, there's just woo uh, you know, 20, 20 people come down from Waterloo and, and fill up the hotel rooms and whatever town that they just bought the dealership in and just handle that transition. You know, they usually shut down for a week or so, pop up some new signs, change over the website, uh, make some people some offers, and, uh, and they're, you know, kick out all the other brands and, uh, they're up and running again in a couple weeks. And, um, They've got it down to a science now and uh, I don't think specialized ever quite got to that. It was more like, uh, yeah, okay, we bought you, um, keep running. We'll talk to you in a few months when we need something from you. Uh, that was some of the impression I got anyway. I think specialized also was overpaying for some of the shops from some of the stories I heard, but, um, but I think it all slowed down a lot last, last year, I think with the, um, you know, with the economy and I think, um, the cashflow for companies like Specialized Amtrak I think became harder.

And there's been a handful of acquisitions in the last nine months, but it, it really slowed down a lot um, I haven't heard it very many recently. We don't hear about 'em all cuz both, both track and specialize. Uh, tend to be really quiet when they buy a, a shop or a chain of shops. Uh, but I haven't heard many rumors in the last three or four months.

[00:36:26] Track 1: I've heard, granted, I don't know the, uh, the dates on these, but as I've been talking to dealers, I've heard about offers being made, but those offers may have been made, you know, six, nine months ago, a year ago or something like that. Um, but there's definitely been a lot of, um, a lot of conversations being had along those lines over the past year, year and a half or so.

Um, and it's interesting, you know, there's this long standing conversation in the bike industry about, um, you know, the dynamic between, or the balance between, uh, direct to consumer sales over the internet, which is growing for obvious reasons. And the pivotal role that the bicycle shop, particularly independent shops play, um, as a hub for the cycling community.

And how do you. You know, how do you maintain this critical bit of community infrastructure, um, in a, in a world where, you know, increasingly people can buy things very conveniently over the internet and have it delivered, um, you know, directly to them. Now there's, you know, service has for a long time, um, been the bread and butter of shops.

And a lot of shops pre pandemic were at least telling me, um, that they, as much as they spent a lot of their money on having bikes on the floor, most of their income, most of their net profit was coming from, um, service and parts and accessories. Uh, which is in some ways, you know, supplemental to service.

Cuz when you go in for maintenance, you're getting chains and, and other service parts. Um, but how do you, how do you see that evolving over time from your vantage point?

[00:38:07] steve: It's been hard. I mean, uh, when you hear that, you think, well, why don't you do a service only place? And,

[00:38:15] Track 1: of folks are

[00:38:17] steve: a few folks are, I'm not finding a whole lot of great examples of people that have been raging successes doing that. Um, Uh, you know, the whole, the whole mobile service thing has been at best for the last two or three years. Um, you know, I know that, um, a few people that have gone that way in, um, in the Boulder area haven't been hugely successful. I think there might be a couple that are still running, but, um, the problem is that you just lose that volume. You know, whether you make a lot of money on a bike sale or not, it's still, you know, thousand, 2000, 3000, $5,000 bike sale.

You know, for some shops in Boulders, I know you were and visited some of them, you know, they pretty regularly are selling 10,000 and

[00:39:08] Track 1: sure.

[00:39:09] steve: uh, bikes. And, you know, the profit margin on that not be huge. And you might say, well, why does that guy even, you know, still sell mo bikes? Um, he can make more money building a wheel or, you know, just charging someone a few hundred dollars to install a new campy group on a moot spring. Um, but he nee he needs that, that dollar volume, uh, from the bike sale to pay the rent. Um, so there, there haven't been as many examples of that as you would think. you know, going back five years, going back 20, 30 years, people have been talking about, well, hey, we make all our money in service. Why don't we just do service hasn't worked for many people. Um, I think people expect bike shops to have bikes and, uh, I think the bike shops need that, that volume to make it work. Um, you know, some shops have been, have found some supplemental income doing more different types of service, whether it's, you know, whether it's bike fits, whether it's click and collect fulfillment. Or, uh, doing warranty service. You know, I know I, I talked to a guy at Caba who does warranty service for one of the better known to consumer e-bike brands. And, uh, he makes a pretty significant, high margin chunk of money, uh, just from dealing with warranty service from people that buy these bikes online and then have, have whatever troubles and the, uh, the brand reimburses him, uh, pretty generously.

[00:40:46] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:40:47] steve: so there's all sorts of, uh, kind of ancillary things around the edges that people fill in, but that guy, he still sound a lot of bicycles.

[00:40:55] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:40:56] steve: Uh, he still has a warehouse full of 'em, and, uh, um,

[00:41:01] Track 1: as do a lot of people right now, especially as we, we were saying on the, on the more entry level, um, in particular,

[00:41:09] steve: Yeah. So I don't know. I haven't seen, there's, there's examples here and there. Yeah. Of, of the people who are, who are focusing on the service or are looking into, you know, more of the showrooming, uh, fulfillment click and collect kind of models. And there, you know, there's a million different models as you know,

[00:41:27] Track 1: Mm-hmm. Well and, and click and collect and,

[00:41:31] steve: not, I'm not finding, but like wholesale, you know, all the bike shops going outta business and all of a sudden we have a whole bunch of just little fulfillment showrooms around. Um, is happening, but not on a huge scale, you know, I mean, what specializes do, I don't know how many of these fulfillment centers they have. Uh, that's one of the things they did up in Northern California where, um, after they lost Mikes was opening up these little fulfillment centers. They would just rent a warehouse space in the, you know, in the business park somewhere and hire a couple people to assemble bikes and give 'em a truck, and they would run around and deliver 'em.

[00:42:10] Track 1: Oh, that wa that was basically, um, velo, fix's pitch to the OEMs in the day. Yeah. Uh, Veli fix, uh, being a van based service operator,

[00:42:21] steve: Yeah.

[00:42:21] Track 1: I know you know this

[00:42:22] steve: to be doing a better job of that than, than maybe be, was, um,

[00:42:29] Track 1: velo fix. I,

[00:42:30] steve: model.

[00:42:30] Track 1: yeah. I had spoken with Velix a couple of times, and not only could I not understand the value to us as an o e em as a brand, but I couldn't understand a, you know, they, they required a huge upfront and, uh, investment from their franchisees to not just buy a van but outfitted a particular way and have it beli, fixed, branded.

Um, and then, you know, you're paying a, uh, I think an, um, it might have been an upfront fee and then a recurring fee, and then a percentage of your income. To this company and this company, uh, is supposed to drive business to your franchise, but really in a way, they're kind of intermediating you. And at the end of the day, you know, and the co I, I'm curious, what do you think about this?

Um, I, I had always talked, uh, spoken to the van based folks that I knew and said like, you know, at the end of the day, your, your brand is yourself and the quality of service and your engagement with your local community. And, you know, there's no big, um, company, uh, I think can substitute for that. And I think the bike space is, is that might be more so the case than in other spaces.

Like you have this particular mechanic, uh, because the difference between a good mechanic, a skilled mechanic, a mechanic who cares, uh, and, and does a good job, um, and is engaged in, in their community. The difference between that and. Somebody who doesn't, somebody who doesn't have the skills. Somebody who, you know, it could be the difference between a safe bike and an unsafe bike amongst other things.

Yeah. Um, well, so another topic that you and I have touched on in the past is, uh, you. The supply chain and risks to the supply chain. Uh, I've seen a couple of articles, I believe in your publication, uh, talking about, um, the increasing concerns about exposure to, uh, growing hostilities between, uh, the US and China over, uh, Taiwan.

And I'm curious, what have you been hearing, seeing, uh, with regards to, um, any sort of changes being made on the, uh, upstream for a lot of companies, um, both, um, OEMs who are sourcing in Asia, but then also say Taiwanese companies and so on, uh, who are producing, um, you know, what, what changes are you seeing?

Are people, is that accelerating at all with the, uh, increasingly hostile rhetoric?

[00:45:07] steve: Uh, yeah, but you know, slower than maybe I would've expected. Um, and that, you know, that might not be due to reluctance, but just the fact that it's, it's a hard task, um,

[00:45:19] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:45:20] steve: setting up a, a bike factory or, uh, in a new country and building the infrastructure around it, uh, to make that work, particularly during a pandemic.

[00:45:30] Track 1: Yeah, yeah.

[00:45:31] steve: so, you know, going back to stories I was writing two years ago, you know, I, I think I saw just recently that Velo Saddle opened their factory in Vietnam, I think it was,

[00:45:44] Track 1: Makes sense.

[00:45:45] steve: that they had been working on for like three years. Um, and then they just, they were ready to turn it on when the pandemic started, and then they just, um, sat on those plans for a couple years. But yeah, Velo moving outta Taiwan supplementing their Taiwan factory with uh, a Vietnam factory is a big deal. And, um, You know, and at Eurobike last year, I had a lot of talks with people about, them setting up different factories in Eastern Europe to serve the European market. Um, but, uh, you know, we just saw investing in a new factory in Taiwan, so, uh, there's not a, there's not a mess exodus yet, and I think people are, are finding it's, um, fairly hard to operate in some of these other countries.

Cambodia, I think, turned out to be more of a challenge than some people thought.

[00:46:44] Track 1: Sure

[00:46:45] steve: Um, you know, there's stuff moving towards Malaysia and Singapore, I think. Um,

[00:46:52] Track 1: in the.

[00:46:53] steve: Vietnam has been up and down. They had more covid problems than, than some areas, I think. yeah, it's a very slow movement. I think, you know, um, you know, Trek hasn't broken ground on a giant new factory in, in Waterloo, as far as I know.

Or, or, or in Mexico or in, uh, Bulgaria. You know,

[00:47:16] Track 1: Well, that, that's a whole, I mean, it's a related conversation, um, and a whole other can of worms that we can crack open. Um, so one, you know, we, we have looked, um, at various times over the years at what it would take, um, both for us to do more production domestically, um, but then also, um, for more production to be done domestically in a general sense.

And, uh, I'll give an example. Um, recently I was looking at, uh, you know, developing and sourcing a metal frame, either steel or titanium. Um, we'll, we'll stick with steel. It's an easier example. So, um, called, uh, a few different outfits and, uh, well one, there isn't really anyone who's mass producing steel frames in the US When I say mass producing, like doing, you know, thousand of units at a go.

Um, with the exception of maybe Kent.

[00:48:09] steve: Detroit.

[00:48:11] Track 1: Uh, Detroit bikes

[00:48:13] steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:14] Track 1: they, and they're serving as a contract manufacturer?

[00:48:17] steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:20] Track 1: Might ask for an intro at some point. Um,

[00:48:22] steve: That's Tony Kirklands,

[00:48:24] Track 1: oh, okay.

[00:48:25] steve: who bought, um, he and his partner bought time,

[00:48:30] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:48:30] steve: is making carbon frames in Europe somewhere. Slovenia,

[00:48:36] Track 1: Okay.

[00:48:36] steve: of those European companies,

[00:48:37] Track 1: Yeah,

[00:48:38] steve: Um, and then that company car, it's called Cardinal Bicycle Works, I think, uh, also bought Detroit. Uh, they're, they claim to be the biggest steel frame maker in the US and uh, they're making stuff under their own. Name and they're doing a couple other contract

[00:48:58] Track 1: that.

[00:48:58] steve: some, they made some Schwinn Varsities a couple years ago. I mean, I think that was only a few hundred units or a or so. But they actually, they brought Backy made, made Detroit?

[00:49:11] Track 1: Well, one of the, the things that's great to hear, and I'm gonna follow up on that, um, one of the things that kept coming up as I was having conversations here was there are essentially two primary, um, sources, uh, brands that are selling, uh, tube sets. Unless you're sourcing factory direct outta somewhere in Asia, uh, I think you have colo.

You have, uh, what Columbus some in some Reynolds. And one of, one of them has been struggling with supply and both of them are, are quite expensive in the US vis-a-vis what you can get comparable tube sets for in Asia. And so when you combine those two factors of both more expensive raw stock and the fact that you can't, you don't know it's going to be available and you only have two supply, two primary suppliers versus if I want to make, uh, a frame somewhere in Asia, I have.

Countless tube suppliers now don't necessarily want to use just any of them, but even the, the higher end ones, of which there may be a handful, they still have the, all these other factories kind of nipping at their heels. And that, you know, drives innovation. That drives, uh, you know, them to build this sort of, um, you know, production facilities that can handle scale, that are responsive.

Uh, they know if they can't deliver on a tight timeframe for a reasonable price, that someone else is gonna develop that capacity to do so. Um, and that goes across every single thing that you could want to source for a bicycle, whether it's something like a carbon component you want to develop. You have any number of facilities where you could co-develop that, that component.

And they'll even provide the engineering, in some cases, they'll latize the tooling over the, over the units, which is to say, like, spread the cost of the tooling over the units, the, the tooling costs. You know, my tooling costs for a frame is on the order of like 8,000 bucks a size. . Um, and I could have that built into the price if I do enough volume.

That's, you know, you combine all of these factors and, you know, going back to the issue of, of Taiwan, yeah, it doesn't surprise me that you're not seeing moves and mass just because you have such deep and interconnected supply chains there. And even like when you get your goods quoted, they quote it, um, not out of the factory.

They deliver it to your door. And that's just expected. And when they say they're gonna deliver it, generally they're pretty on time. Um, particularly, you know, the, the, the better vendors out there, the more professional ones, the velo, uh, you know, velo makes not just saddles, but bar tape and they do most of the high-end stuff in the industry.

Uh, still there are a couple competitors, but, um, and it's because they just do such a great job. Um, and that efficiency. And, uh, another example, I was sourcing stems years ago. and I was like, oh, I'm, yeah. I lived in a, I lived in China for a number of years. Uh, I bet you I can find a better deal somewhere in China.

I couldn't, Taiwan had better pricing on a superior product. Um, and it's because Taiwan had, um, invested in, you know, factories like, uh, jd, um, their trade name is Trans X.

[00:52:15] steve: mm-hmm.

[00:52:15] Track 1: they manufacture for any number of brands. They did all of our, uh, cockpit stuff, uh, for thesis, and they just have a very well run production facility in these huge forging machines and really high quality tooling.

And they can just crank out high quality 3D forg stems all day with that high quality and without a, a huge, with a less and less human intervention in that process. Um, and, you know, do it at a price that makes it such that, you know, there's no point in going somewhere else. Um, because most of the cost is not associated with the labor.

[00:52:52] steve: Yeah.

[00:52:53] Track 1: Um, so yeah, that, that makes sense. It'll be interesting. Uh, you know, I'm, as you know, I did my, my graduate studies in US-China relations, and so it's a situation I've been following quite closely. Um, I guess, uh, if something does happen there, uh, the availability of bike parks, it will be the, the least of everybody's issues,

[00:53:13] steve: Yeah. Yeah, that's a thing. I mean, there, there won't be many parts of the economy that won't be affected, um, if something happens there. But, um, bike industry will not be an exception,

[00:53:24] Track 1: now,

[00:53:25] steve: um, except for maybe on the service part. Right. Still, uh, we can still maybe

[00:53:31] Track 1: secondhand stuff will be, um, the secondary market will be booming,

[00:53:35] steve: Yeah.

[00:53:35] Track 1: so,

[00:53:36] steve: up now by your, uh, by your HP cassettes now. Yeah.

[00:53:43] Track 1: well, so to, you know, to wrap up here, um, what do you see going forward, um, from, and, and very open-ended question, uh, what are you excited about from a technology standpoint? What are you seeing, um, in terms of, uh, you know, innovative business models or distribution models or, uh, just trends in the, in industry more generally.

[00:54:10] steve: Well, there's one word that we haven't used so far in this call. You like,

[00:54:16] Track 1: Sure.

[00:54:17] steve: you know, there's still, there's still some growth there, I think. Um,

[00:54:21] Track 1: What do those stats look like right now?

[00:54:23] steve: it's not good stats. There aren't any, I don't know. You know, you can just read the T leaves and see that, you know, there's been some discounting and there. Um, even some of the low price brands that were scaring the hell out of everybody a year ago, um, are now blowing out prices, which is not good news, but still, um, kind of suggests that the, uh, the, uh, demand has, has slowed a little bit.

[00:54:51] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:54:52] steve: but you know, it's exciting to see, uh, the growth and the cargo bikes, you know, um, you know, I know Specialized finally did their public launch of their globe. The Globe this week.

[00:55:02] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:03] steve: launched the Ecar bike a month or two ago. I think. there's some others coming around. Turn seems to be kicking ass. Um, And, uh, not to mention rad power. Um, so, you know, that's, that's still exciting. There's still growth potential there. Uh, you know, I don't think you're gonna get to European numbers where, you know, like in the Netherlands where, I don't know, or 70% of the bikes sold, there are e-bikes. Now, you know, we're in the US it's probably 12% or something.

I don't know. not gonna get there. I've been saying that for years, but, you know, even if we go from 12% to 18%, that's, uh, a lot of growth. And it's also, um, you know, a high average selling price of these things. You know,

[00:55:53] Track 1: Mm-hmm.

[00:55:53] steve: to talk about Kent selling $89, 20, 20 inch wheel bikes to Walmart.

But when you're talking about somebody, you know, when you know the low price leader is selling bikes for 1400 bucks, uh, e-bikes.

[00:56:07] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:56:08] steve: You know, and then, you know, and, and specialized just brought out their, you know, their discounted, affordable e cargo bike, which I think starts at 2,500 bucks or something. It's a big, it's a big difference there.

[00:56:20] Track 1: Well,

[00:56:22] steve: so, you know, Turin is selling these, you know, these little electric mini band bikes, uh, you know, for three, four or $5,000 regularly then, then another thousand dollars in accessories on top of it. Um, so, uh, not to be too focused on the dollars and cents here, but I am, I am from a business magazine,

[00:56:43] Track 1: Sure. Yeah.

[00:56:44] steve: um, so yeah, there's exciting and, uh, you know, yeah, there's, there's, it's, it's fun to see the growth in the gravel bikes. and uh, and the activity around that, uh, the way the events are going and the competition is, is really interesting. Um,

[00:57:05] Track 1: And the, and the community dynamics in the gravel space too, it seems to have remained a lot more accessible even as you have more elite level events and so on, showing, showing up. You still have, you know, lots of local events and it's a, it's a version of cycling that is, well, it's a very versatile machine and it gets you off the road.

Which addresses, uh, the, the thing that comes up in survey after survey as the biggest limiter, uh, for people getting on bikes, which is fear of cars, you know, the safety concerns.

[00:57:39] steve: yeah, yeah. And I'm not sure what I think about that. I think it is more accessible than, you know, old school, you know, USA cycling, road racing, um, I guess, uh, but you know, last night, I mean, for me, I don't have a whole lot of interest personally in doing a lot of the events. Maybe a couple a year, but, you know, mostly I, what I like about gravel writing is just being able to go out and explore and. Um, ride by myself or with a, a couple friends, but not necessarily pin a number on. Even if I do pin a number on, it's not really to raise, it's just, uh, you know, an excuse to ride with some people and have some rest areas where I can get free food along the way,

[00:58:21] Track 1: Yeah.

[00:58:22] steve: of having to fill up my water bottles in a creek somewhere. So, um, but I don't know. I went to a, I went to a big gravel race, um, last spring and. It, it didn't look very accessible to me. You know, I saw a lot of people pulling up in Sprinter vans with a couple, you know, $8,000 bikes on the back bumper and, you know, the carbon wheels and, you know, there was a nice dinner out and it was during Covid, so everybody was eating outside and they had the streets blocked off.

We're all sitting out on the tables on the street. And, uh, it was, it was kind of fun. It reminded me of, you know, no racing from back in the day. But, uh, but then, but then, yeah, I'm looking around and I'm seeing a lot of pretty well-healed middle class

[00:59:06] Track 1: Yep.

[00:59:07] steve: people with nice cars and carbon bikes, with carbon wheels and a whole lot of money invested.

And I'm like, I,

[00:59:15] Track 1: Well, and

[00:59:16] steve: accessibility of this.

[00:59:17] Track 1: well, and, and yes, that absolutely exists. And that's a, that's a perfectly fine thing. Um, you know, there's, there's a place for everybody. I, I think what I'm referring to more is, well, one, what you're describing as like going out solo or with some friends and, you know, going out on the road, leaving from your back door and then going out on adventure and like experiencing your area from a different vantage point.

Um, there's also kind of along those lines, uh, the bike packing phenomenon, which to some degree is a little bit like the s u V phenomenon, that people are buying bikes that they could go bike packing with, um, but not necessarily doing it, but you, but you see more and more of that people doing an overnight or a couple days or something.

[00:59:57] steve: Mm.

[00:59:58] Track 1: but then lots of just, uh, at least here in New England, I've been to a few very kind of small, intimate types of events. Maybe you have a, a couple hundred people show up and there's a, a, you know, a, a wood fired, um, uh, pizza oven going and, you know, local, uh, brewery supporting, and it's to support, uh, some local cause and maybe they have a podium.

Um, but, but not really. It's like, that's not the point

[01:00:26] steve: Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. I think, uh, the whole, the way the competition goes, um, you know, I don't know how many people are interested in the, and even, uh, from a spectator point of view in the racers, I, I, a few people are, I mean, we

[01:00:44] Track 1: It's, it's not, it's not super interesting

[01:00:47] steve: right? I mean, I, I'm a nerd. I mean, I'll, I'll, man, I, last week was, I, I was watching Melan, I mean, not Melan. Perry Neese and Toreno Rko, you know, back to back every morning. I mean, I'm a total bike race nerd. I love it. You know, I did used to be the editor of T com, uh, and I couldn't even tell you who the top gravel racers are, you know, in the US and I don't know how many people care. I know, you know, we at [email protected] and cycling tips.com.

We write a bit about that. Betsy Welch is doing a great job, but, I, I don't know how many, you know, I'm, I'm interested in doing gravel events. I'm interested in the gravel equipment. when I hear about an event, I think, oh, that might be nice to go to some year. I'd like to do that and see what it's like to ride in that part of the country on those kind of roads. Uh, but do I want to read, uh, a 2000 word interview with the guy that won the pro race? Uh, maybe not. I dunno.

[01:01:55] Track 1: I'm, I'm with you. I think that the, um, the more interesting story is the, the story of your own experience of the events. You know, you go and you do something that is long and maybe has some technical sections, and you are, um, linking up with different groups along the way, unlike, say, a, a cross-country race.

Um, so cross-country race, you tend to be, you know, it's a, it's a time trial in which you have some people in the way sometimes, um, and road,

[01:02:20] steve: in the way.

[01:02:21] Track 1: yeah. and then Ro

[01:02:23] steve: usually the one that's in the way of some other people, but yeah.

[01:02:26] Track 1: Yeah. Um, that, that was my discipline back in the day. Uh, but with gravel, you have, I mean, uh, I know quite a few people, myself included. At this point.

I'm no longer. I no longer do these events to compete, I do it as a way of connecting with folks, like being out on a ride and you end up just, uh, linking up with different groups and having this kind of shared ordeal of slogging up that hill with a group or riding into the wind with another group and, you know, making friends along the way.

And those are the types of dynamics that, you know, I have, I haven't done a ton of the, um, you know, the, the big, the big banner events for, you know, gravel series and so on. Uh, but those are the dynamics that I'm seeing at the, again, these more intimate, local types of events that I think when I talk about accessibility, that's, that's where, um, my heart is, you know, things that are much more about bringing people together and, and providing a shared experience, a platform for a shared experience that people, uh, find, um, meaningful and not just a competition.

[01:03:28] steve: Yeah. And just from a, you know, from an event point of view, just the practicality of it now. I mean, we're, we're, we're losing paved roads where we can have a race. I mean, even just watching, watching the two races in Europe last week, how, how many of 'em they have to go through these damn traffic circles? I mean, the, the last 10 kilometers are scary now cause there's a, there's a traffic circle every five blocks.

[01:03:51] Track 1: Yeah,

[01:03:52] steve: uh, all these, you know, the road furniture is just getting worse and worse. And that's been happening in the for years. You know, there's all sorts that had to be canceled just because of all the development and the traffic and road designs make it impossible. The road there anymore.

[01:04:08] Track 1: yeah,

[01:04:09] steve: mogul Bismark circuit outside of Boulder is just unable now. Because of all the traffic circles

[01:04:16] Track 1: yeah. Um, Boulder's a very, boulder's a very particular place. Um, you've been there for how many years now?

[01:04:25] steve: Uh, about 15.

[01:04:27] Track 1: Yeah, uh, I haven't been going there quite that long, but, um, I did do the whole kind of dirt bag, private tier pro thing at one point. Um, so got to ride at a bunch of different places and obviously for my work, I'm traveling a fair amount and the, um, the number of strong riders you have where you are is pretty outstanding.

It's kind of hard to go out on a ride and not cross paths with some past or current national champion or Olympian. Um, and you also have, um, unique in the US is some of the best bike infrastructure anywhere. And that actually to maybe we close up the conversation with, um, you know, you had talked about how.

you know, we could say modal share, uh, the share of, uh, trips taken by bike or the number of bikes being sold, um, not just for recreation, but for utility. You know, e-bikes primarily fall into a utility, uh, space with the exception of, you know, some performance mountain bikes and so on. But the, uh, you were saying how Europe has seen far more adoption.

Uh, what do you see as the differences between the European and US markets and, you know, the, the things that would have to happen here, uh, to see greater adoption of bicycles as a modality for, you know, not just, uh, enthusiast riders, but recreation and, and, you know, more importantly as a, I think as a, a replacement for a number of automobile trips, which is where these cargo bikes come in.

[01:05:56] steve: Right. Yeah. It's all about the facilities. You know, it's all about building out the infrastructure to, to make that viable. Um, you know, I mean, it's funny, I heard somebody else recently talk about Boulder and what great infrastructure we have.

[01:06:12] Track 1: Relatively, relatively speaking.

[01:06:14] steve: Yeah, it must mean the rest of the country's really pretty bad because there's a lot , there's a lot of improvements that could still be made in Boulder.

It's still pretty, awful. Uh, I think, um, and I, you know, I haven't traveled as much the last few years because of Covid, but before that I did a lot. And, um, you know, I think, uh, places like, you know, I think of Vancouver primarily. Uh, they've done some amazing things there with their infrastructure and they've been just pretty ruthless about coveted and saying, yeah, we're gonna redo this entire, you know, intersection that used to be some, uh, you know, horrendous clover leaf.

And we're just gonna slow it down and we're gonna build like, past, through the middle of it to, um, to make it easier to get through here on a bike. And yes, it's gonna slow down cars. Um, and, uh, unfortunately it's harder to do that in the us. Uh, it's

[01:07:05] Track 1: sure.

[01:07:06] steve: to build. Infrastructure. Uh, there's a lot of NIMBYs, there's a lot of regulations, there's a lot of, cost factors that, um, slow a lot of that stuff down a lot. so, you know, the good news is there's a lot of potential to improve. I mean, I look at Boulder and, you know, yeah, it has great infrastructure. It also has a ton of car traffic. There's a ton of people in single occupant cars sitting in traffic all day. There's people backed up around the block waiting to go through the coffee, drive through in

[01:07:36] Track 1: Mm-hmm. . Mm-hmm.

[01:07:37] steve: occupancy car that they're sitting there and idling in,

[01:07:40] Track 1: Yep.

[01:07:41] steve: pumping out.

And that's Boulder, you know.

[01:07:43] Track 1: Yeah. Burn, burning, subsidized gas.

[01:07:46] steve: Yeah.

[01:07:47] Track 1: Yeah.

[01:07:48] steve: Um, so yeah, like I said, the good news is there's a lot, there's a lot of room for improvement, even in Boulder and much less, uh, um, some other places.

[01:07:57] Track 1: Yeah. I think.

[01:07:58] steve: um, but you know, every, every time there's a little bit of improvement that's, you know, that's another, uh, it's another a hundred e cargo bikes sold, maybe, uh, it's too bad it's not hundred thousand more sold, but it's, it's hundred more sold. And, um, so.

[01:08:18] Track 1: Yeah, I think there's this, um, you know, you, you get slightly better infrastructure and that gets a few more people on the road, which in turn gets a slightly bigger constituency to push for better infrastructure and gets drivers slightly more accustomed to, you know, sharing the roads with, with cyclists.

But early on, you know, I, I, the numbers I've seen are generally around 5% is where there's something of a phase shift in terms of those dynamics. And you start to s you know, it starts to get a little bit easier to get further adoption. Um,

[01:08:49] steve: some kind of tipping 0.5% of what,

[01:08:53] Track 1: Uh, modal share. So of, of all trips taken, um, 5% by bike and I believe places like the Netherlands, um, uh, actually, uh, just had Anna Mariah Rook, uh, on the pod not too long ago. She might know this, she's from there. Um, but I recall reading like on the order of like, you know, 30, 40, 50% modal share, maybe more.

I have to, uh, look that up at some point. And that's a, a fundamentally. Different dynamic. It's, it's highly normalized, it's abnormal to, um, you know, to take a car for no good reason. And the infrastructure's there to support it, in part because there're enough people to agitate for the infrastructure. Um, and then you get into congestion charges and downtowns and things like this that might, um, help to nudge some of this, um, you know, convenient for the driver, but, um, detrimental to everyone else's behavior of, uh, single occupancy vehicles going for short distances to do everything that you could otherwise do with a, a knee cargo bike or, or even just on foot, frankly.

Um, um, but, uh,

[01:09:57] steve: It's a hard push and it's just, it's just these little marginal improvements, you know? I mean, uh, I'm in Longmont right now. If, if, um, you know, if they could figure out how to make a east, west bike route in this city so that I could get from here to, uh, where, where I want to go on the, on the east side of town without having to go through, you know, umpteen really horrible, unsafe intersections and,

[01:10:24] Track 1: Yeah.

[01:10:25] steve: um, it would increase. You know, that, that, that would be, that would be 10 more e cargo bikes sold in Longmont this year. Um, but it, you know, it takes that one, project and there's just a million of those projects all around the country, everywhere you look, you know, including in progressive places like Boulder

[01:10:42] Track 1: Well, in, I mean, places like Boulder and Longmont were built in the car era. And so you have European cities where, which were built when, you know, having a horse was a big deal, , so things tend to be closer together. And, uh, also the zoning tended to be, um, more co-mingled with businesses and shops and, and, uh, residential versus the way we do it here.

You have a bunch of residential and then a bunch of big box stores, and then maybe you have a downtown that's, uh, being threatened by the big box stores, or that's really high end in boutiquey.

[01:11:14] steve: Yeah. you know, Boston was famously laid out before the automobile, so there's some potential there.

[01:11:22] Track 1: Let the cows out of the pasture follow where they go and lay out the roads that way.

[01:11:26] steve: Right. Yeah. Just like, you know, I used to live in Santa Fe and it was, uh, we were, uh, lobbying to get some, uh, bike infrastructure built there. And the mayor said something about, you know, when they laid out this city of Santa Fe in 1612, they weren't thinking of bicycles. I'm like, well, they weren't thinking of SUVs either in 1612, you know,

[01:11:47] Track 1: Yeah.

[01:11:48] steve: burs. I think the burs are a little closer to a bicycle than, than your, uh, undre is. But, uh, there aren't that many cities in the US that, that were, uh, laid out that way.

[01:11:59] Track 1: Yeah. Bikes. Bikes also, uh, uh, you kind of touched upon, um, they, they kind of fall into the broader culture wars. , I think in a, in a big way for, for some people like bike infrastructure means you're gonna get the, uh, you know, these, uh, a certain type of person that they don't identify with. Uh, just put it that way.

[01:12:18] steve: Yeah.

[01:12:21] Track 1: Um,

[01:12:21] steve: it falls on that somehow. It's, it's a, it's a, uh, woke conspiracy of bicycles.

[01:12:27] Track 1: yeah.

[01:12:27] steve: Um, I, I saw a headline yesterday that, uh, Pete Budgie is being blamed for the, uh, e-bike fires in New York City. So, um,

[01:12:36] Track 1: Yeah, that makes sense.

[01:12:37] steve: cause he is the head of transportation.

[01:12:42] Track 1: And the, uh, the fight, the fight against the regulatory, the, the, actually, um, Anna Mariah, uh, brought this up too, cause she's been doing, uh, a bit of reporting, uh, on that, uh, the, the various fires happening there. And well, you know, some of those parties may be the same pushing for, you know, uh, pushing against any sort of regulation of business activities.

And, you know, that's a, that is very much a, a regulatory issue, you know, having, uh, consumer protections as an example in that particular case of these dangerous batteries. Um,

[01:13:17] steve: yep. It's.

[01:13:18] Track 1: well, Steve,

[01:13:19] steve: I, I got into the whole New York thing with some people a few weeks ago, and, uh, yeah, it's very deep. You can, you can go down a really, really deep rabbit hole there.

[01:13:29] Track 1: Well, it's, you know, you get a, you, I mean, one of the challenges is you get rid of these low-cost e-bikes and all of a sudden the livelihoods of a huge swath of the, uh, population generally, um, immigrant population are outta work. Um, and who are they serving? Well, it's, it's all these delivery companies, um, that are, you know, sending food and whatever Nick Impulse buy, uh, to, you know, wealthier people nearby.

And so you don't have to walk outta your house to, to go get your knickknack.

[01:13:59] steve: I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I, you know, what I know about New York, I, you know, is from watching Seinfeld, but, you know, it appears to me that, uh, these people live in tiny apartments with no kitchens, and so they rely on getting, uh, Chinese takeout, uh, five nights a week,

[01:14:14] Track 1: Yeah,

[01:14:16] steve: apparently now requires. Low cost e-bikes.

[01:14:19] Track 1: yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:20] steve: Um, so, you know, cracking down on UL listed batteries means, you know, Jerry and, uh, Kramer can't get their Chinese food every night. So I don't know. The

[01:14:35] Track 1: there's soup. Or there's soup which you have to show up in person for and maybe they don't give you.

[01:14:39] steve: guess so. You got, you can't, the super delivery,

[01:14:40] Track 1: Yeah. Um, well, Steve, it's uh, always a pleasure to catch up with you. I look forward to doing it again in a few months as, as we tend to do every so often.

[01:14:51] steve: Yeah.

[01:14:51] Track 1: um,

[01:14:52] steve: Come out the boulder again. There's plenty of, lots more riding to do.

[01:14:56] Track 1: Sounds good. Thanks Steve.

[01:14:57] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Between Randall and Steven. I know I learned a lot and always good to hear Steven's voice. Big, thanks to our friends at dynamic cyclist for supporting the show this week. Remember, they've got a one week free trial of their stretching and strengthening routines [email protected]. And if you're interested in continuing on with their program, they're offering gravel ride podcasts, listeners, 15% off using the code, the gravel ride.

If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride. Or take a minute to give us a rating or review those five star ratings go a long way in. Helping other gravel, cyclists discover our content. You can always catch up with myself and Randall at the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. That's a free global cycling community.

We created a couple of years ago to connect gravel and adventure, cyclists from all over the world. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.

This week Randall and Craig have along overdue catch up and discuss SRAM's new XX SL Eagle 'hanger-less' derailleur and its implications for the gravel market.

Episode Sponsor: Hammerhead Karoo 2 (use code: THEGRAVELRIDE for free HRM strap)

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I'm joined by my co-host Randall Jacobs for another edition of, in the dirt. We're going to take a look at Schram's new mountain bike derailer group. Oh, and the removal of the derailleur hanger. It's quite big news and has big implications. We've already seen a couple of gravel bikes with this type of dropout ready for this new type of derailer system. Perhaps some mullet systems will be up and running as we speak. And as we record this podcast,

It has ramifications in terms of compatibility, both backwards and forwards. And we asked some questions about how Shamana will play into this new paradigm. The new derailer has some super nifty design elements to it. And a lot of thought was clearly put into it by the folks at SRAM. Speaking of the folks at SRAM, I need to thank this week. Sponsor hammerhead and the hammerhead Caru to computer. They hammered crew two is the most advanced GPS cycling computer available today.

With industry leading mapping navigation and routing capabilities that set it apart from other GPS options. It has free global maps with points of interests included like cafes and campsites. So you can explore with confidence and on the go flexibility. As I've mentioned before, one of my favorite features is hammerheads exclusive climber feature with predictive path technology that lets you visualize and prepare for upcoming gradient changes in real time.

With or without a root loaded. I was using this feature today. In fact, I was adding on to one of my favorite rides, the Dawn patrol here in Marin county on Mount Tam. And I decided to extend the day. And honestly, by the time I dropped down to mirror woods, I decided I'd climb up the roads because I did not have the legs to go up the trail system, knowing that that trail up middle green gold Chaz. Gosh, it's probably about a 20% climb. I opted for the road and I had my face glued.

To the hammerhead crew to screen, as I was watching those gradients change. And my legs were aching. I knew what was ahead of me. I knew how long I had to go and I just kept plugging away. And that kind of knowledge. Whether it's in your home terrain or even more importantly, when you're riding routes that you've loaded on that potentially you haven't written before. It's just great. It works well for me, I tend to like to know how long I need to suffer for up these Hills. So kudos to the team at

as you know, they continually update via over the air software upgrades. So they're keeping the system fresh. They just released a new e-bike integration that brings detailed battery life usage. Right to your display so you can stay attuned to if you're running low on batteries.

Right now for listeners of the podcast, you can get a free heart rate monitor with the purchase of our hammerhead kuru to simply visit hammerhead.io right now, and use that promo code, the gravel ride at checkout to get yours today. This is an exclusive offer. So don't forget to use that promo code, the gravel ride.

Just add that heart rate monitor to your purchase of a kuru [email protected]. And you'll be good to go. With that said let's jump right into my conversation with my co-host Randall Jacobs.

[00:03:57] Craig Dalton: Hey, Randall. How you doing?

[00:03:59] Randall R. Jacobs: Doing very, very well, Craig. Good to see you buddy. How are

[00:04:02] Craig Dalton: Yeah, good to see you. Yeah, it's been a while. I feel like we've exchanged a few texts here and there over the last, say, 30 or 40 days, but we haven't actually connected.

[00:04:11] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, I think, uh, you've been pretty busy with work and with family and on my end, um, I just bought a house and so that's been occupying a lot of my mindshare and time, uh, which

[00:04:22] Craig Dalton: That's huge. I'm both, I'm both excited for you and then a little sad cuz I think feel like that has more permanence of you on the East coast than not on the West coast.

[00:04:32] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, the good news there is that, um, I will have two different little, uh, guest loft suites in the space. And so come out anytime with the fam and, uh, we'll put you up.

[00:04:43] Craig Dalton: Great. Where is the house located?

[00:04:45] Randall R. Jacobs: Kingston, New York, which, um, folks here may have heard us talk in the past about the Old Positive Festival. Um, and, uh, we actually sponsor that ride and that ride will be the sixth through the eighth and, uh, of October. Um, and the riding out here is beautiful. It's right in the Catskills, the Hudson Rivers there.

It's the original capital of New York State. And so there's a lot to do, a lot to experience, and I can't wait to. I mean, to meet some of the people, um, in our, you know, in the ridership and, and some of our listeners out here now that I'm officially putting down roots.

[00:05:21] Craig Dalton: Yeah. I know you've spent, uh, a bit of time there in the past through the O Positive Festival and other rides you've, you've had with, with friends up there. What's, what's the riding like in that area?

[00:05:31] Randall R. Jacobs: uh, we have mountains. Uh, the biggest mountain in the Catskills is about 4,000 feet. Uh, you can't ride to the summit, but there are plenty of hills, as you might imagine. Uh, and then Kingston is this little. Urban oasis amongst the sea of, you know, towns and, um, you know, and, uh, farms. Uh, there's communes, there's, there's lots of, um, interesting social innovation, new economics type thinking happening here.

Um, and as far as the riding, it's, it. It's like classic northeast riding, um, quiet back roads, plenty of gravel. Uh, there's a rail trail, uh, that comes out of town here and goes up into the, uh, into the mountains. So plenty to do.

[00:06:21] Craig Dalton: And just geographically speaking, so you know, listeners can figure out where is Kingston without going to a map, how would you describe it relative to other big city landmarks?

[00:06:31] Randall R. Jacobs: So it is about an hour and a half to two hours from, uh, Manhattan on the Hudson River. Uh, if you are coming from little further north, uh, I come from Boston, so it's about three hours from, from my hometown of Waltham, uh, out on the 90 and and south from there for about 45 minutes. So right on the border with, with Connecticut on the Hudson River.

[00:06:55] Craig Dalton: Okay. Awesome, awesome. Well, I know like we've had a lot of listeners from that area and I know it's got a great cycling community. I think the interesting thing about um, the east coast cycling communities is you have such good proximity to other communities, right? So if you live in ride in Kingston and you have an opportunity to.

Go to an event in Vermont, like that's feasible, right? Versus going to Vermont for us from the West coast is obviously a bit more of a, of a hike.

[00:07:25] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and there's lots of small local events in the Northeast as well, which is, which is quite great. And I love the vibe at those. Uh, there's a place for the really big events, and we'll talk about Sea Otter in a second. Uh, but the intimacy of an event that has 200, 300 people show up and, you know, everyone's volunteering and it, you know, maybe the funds go towards some local cause, uh, is something that's very New England.

Uh,

[00:07:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. And I mean, I know you've been operating out of Massachusetts for a while, for, for thesis bike and locus components. Any changes in operation for, for, for the business, for moving up to that area?

[00:08:03] Randall R. Jacobs: Uh, I will need to take my laptop with me from Walham to Kingston, um, and then hook up to an internet connection here, uh, to do all the same things as before. But otherwise, we've always been, uh, a remote distributed team with, uh, you know, warehouses, one in the US and one in Taiwan. So that'll all stay the same.

[00:08:25] Craig Dalton: Yeah, we don't have time to get into it on this podcast, but I have heard about this thing called the internet and how it empowers entrepreneurs to work from around the world.

[00:08:34] Randall R. Jacobs: It's like a series of tubes, um, is what I heard from one, uh, senator in, uh, deliberations at one point. But, uh, I'll, I'll have to read his testimony, uh, you know, in more detail. So let's, let's get in, let's get into something serious here. Um,

so.

[00:08:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:08:50] Randall R. Jacobs: Lots of stuff to cover. Um, the, the, we have, you know, escape Collective.

We had Kaylee Fritz on the pod, uh, a few months ago talking about, um, what came next after, uh, he was let go at outside and that's huge. Escape collective.cc. , they have a, a, um, a member funded model for independent cycling media. Uh, they are over subs. They, they more than, uh, achieve their goals in terms of the initial subscribership.

And they've got people like James Huang on board who, you know, as you know, I, I personally respect immensely. He's obvi, arguably the best in the game. Um, and, uh, yeah, they, they seem to be doing it. Uh, I think it's super promising.

[00:09:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it was really interesting that interview you had with him earlier in the year and how he was teasing out some ideas, but pretty impressive how quickly they moved from ideation to actually execution and pretty impressive how many other journalists across a number of different disciplines they managed to get involved in the project.

Great to see like, Their community and their following. I think a lot of these journalists have pretty strong individual followings. Good to see those followings all kind of come together and see an enterprise such as Escape Collective garner enough early subscribers to kind of kick it off and become a going concern.

[00:10:26] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, I think it speaks to the quality of the community and the content that they were creating at Cycling Tips, which was founded by Wade Wallace. I remember the early days of cycling tips. I was. It was, you know, my racing days and that was the go-to cycling tips blog. It's where you went to get like inside line on training with power in the latest tech and so on.

And they did such a good job and continued doing a phenomenal job right up until the end. , uh, when unfortunately, you know, economic pressures and, you know, venture capital demands, um, on the model at outside, you know, uh, resulted in a lot of good people being let go and then, um, a lot of people following them after.

But, you know, it's, and the, I, I don't know if you've been in Velo Club. Which was the cycling tips, uh, slack forum,

um, super vibrant, healthy, uh, community there. And those people, I mean, I think, I think it's still active. Actually. I'm, I'm in, I'm in that slack, but they have a new discus, or, or I should say discord and um, you know, those dynamics are continuing.

So

[00:11:33] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:11:34] Randall R. Jacobs: it just goes to show that like, The label of the, the publication mattered a lot less than the integrity and the competency of the people involved with the project. And, uh, yeah, I'll power to them. I, I'm very excited to have this sort of funding model for independent cycling media.

[00:11:51] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. I am as well. I'm, I'm, you know, I'm a member and excited to kind of get it into my routine of sites that I hit for cycling news, and I'm, I'm still trying to get it straight in my head, like, where, why, and what I'm going for there is it, Long form media, is it the podcast, et cetera. But, you know, super excited to support what they're doing.

And I'd love to see the, the sort of media go that direction. I do sort of have some sort of concerns as to, okay, six months from now, eight months from now, a year from now, how does the economic model pan out? Right? Can they, can they get more subscribers? Can they, can they do more? Can they all get paid what they deserve to get paid?

Under this model, I'm, I'm hopeful that there's enough shift in how people want to, uh, pay for the content they're consuming, that they can achieve the goals and make it, you know, a con going concern for years to come.

[00:12:45] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and if anyone knows what the potential is, it's the people on that team because they had the numbers from when they were at cycling tips. Right, so they know what the potential market size is and what the willingness to pay. Um, they had a lot of people paying 99 bucks a year, and that's, that's significant.

Um, but you're right. Yeah. If you have a, a, a crew of, you know, 15 full-time. Uh, journalists, um, you know, that that requires sig significant funding, particularly if you are going to not entirely forego advertising, but, um, have it be largely member funded and, uh, forego, uh, for reasons of, of ethos, um, any sort of like, Pay to play or, you know, um, are, we may earn a small commission when you click this link and buy the product that we just did the review of.

And even if there's journalistic integrity in the review, well, you know, it, it's still isn't a great look. Um, so, so,

Yeah,

[00:13:46] Craig Dalton: it was interesting. I, I was listening to, uh, another podcast the other day, um, and it was reminded of the cycling independent. which was something that was started, you know, maybe 18 months ago. And it's, it's, I'm curious like how both businesses evolve. I mean, I think with the Escape Collective, the journalists involved, they all had big social followings and, uh, a lot of committed kind of listeners and fans and, and readers of their work.

So I think they had an easier time kind of bringing together enough subscribers versus like, I don't hear a ton about the cycling in depend.

[00:14:23] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, and I, I think to the community piece, they were really engaged. You look at the, the, I've said this on the pod before, the comment sections in their articles, they were in there and answering questions and providing perspective, and then the forum, um, you know, there are real relationships formed in the forum, as with ours.

But, uh, the scale, or when I say ours, I mean collectively, ours, not you and I, uh, the, the, the ridership community. . Uh, but I think that that is where they really differentiated themselves and it's, it's been an inspiration. There's a reason why I kind of wax on about this is because, uh, for me, I looked at that and it's like, oh, I would love to be involved in building something like that.

Um, you know, just from a distance, not, not that I want to be a cycling journalist. Um, I got, I already have a job, but

[00:15:10] Craig Dalton: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, I mean, sort of selfishly like it, it's nice to have readers and listeners acknowledge the work that you're doing by paying some amount of. to support what you're doing right. It gives you a little bit of wind in your sails. And obviously like you and I are in positions where this is something we do for fun, obviously, like I want my costs, uh, taken care of ideally by sponsors or contributors to the podcast,

[00:15:38] Randall R. Jacobs: Speaking of which,

[00:15:40] Craig Dalton: on it.

Yeah,

[00:15:41] Randall R. Jacobs: where can people go to, uh, support Craig Dalton in, uh, covering the cost for the Gravel Ride Podcast

[00:15:47] Craig Dalton: uh, buy me a coffee.com/the gravel.

[00:15:51] Randall R. Jacobs: There, you hear it

[00:15:52] Craig Dalton: This. This was not a long-winded plug for that, by the way,

[00:15:58] Randall R. Jacobs: Um, yeah. Every, every single dollar of it goes towards just covering the costs. I certainly don't take a penny, nor do I want a penny. Uh, this has benefits for me that, that more than cover any sort of cost that I could incur. And this is just fun.

[00:16:10] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Well, let's, let's transition into riding and, and, uh, general geekery. One thing I wanted to comment on, so, you know, it's been raining like cats and dogs this winter in California. I mean, it's been, it's been crazy and I've been out here for, for 20 years at this point, and this has been the most disruptive weather.

to my cycling that I've ever experienced in California. Um, so it's, it's driven me indoors a little bit. And one of the funny things I found, like, I think it was like two months ago at this point, stepping back for a second, at the beginning of the pandemic, my wife and I had a discussion around indoor trainer bikes.

I was advocating for a trainer to put my bike on like so I could connect his lift. She wanted to get a Peloton. It was clear she was gonna probably enjoy the indoor cycling more than I was, cuz typically in California I like to ride outside. That's all I do. But we, so we ended up getting a Peloton. And quick aside on Peloton, I did find the platform.

Great. Like it definitely is fun, enjoyable, like I can see why people like it. It, uh, my annoyance with it has more been around, like if someone instructor is telling me to stand up and go 120 RPMs, I'm just like, What are you talking about? I would never do that when actually riding a bicycle and that kind of stuff irks me.

But I have found my instructors who are cyclists and so they don't stay crazy, stuff like that. But at the same token, like this whole, this whole world of Swif obviously has kicked off through the pandemic and see countless friends on Strava posting theirs with files. And I was always curious. I had become aware of a, a Kickstarter project that sort of went over.

Resistance snob on the Peloton, but it never went off the ground. I found out about that, you know, two plus years ago. But just recently I found about, found out about this product. It's a hardware hack, which I love. I love the hardware game. Um, it's called the data Data fitness Connector, and I found it by searching like Pelotons with connection.

And it's this little box that you unplug a couple of the wires that go into the pelo. And kind of create this junction box, if you will. That junction box will take the power data and beam it over to your Z Wif account, in my case, on an iPad. So I've been, the last two months, maybe less than that, I've been kind of experiencing zw and understanding what everybody's been raving about.

And you know, I, it definitely has me working out.

[00:18:50] Randall R. Jacobs: Hmm.

Yeah, just the,

[00:18:53] Craig Dalton: I think it's because Y Yeah, because there is like, there is this sort of sense that you're on a group ride, right? And getting dropped. I now, I don't have to leave my house to get dropped. I can get dropped right in my garage.

[00:19:07] Randall R. Jacobs: Congratulations,

[00:19:09] Craig Dalton: Yeah. But, you know, so anyway, quick aside, I mean, this product exists. I have found it interesting. It's just been nice. Like hopefully we're kind of getting to the other side of this rain period and I can get outside more. But, um, it's kind of kept me busy and definitely worked me over on a couple instances where I, you know, I rarely get off a, an indoor bike needing to go like, get a recovery drink or take a nap.

But that's definitely been the.

[00:19:35] Randall R. Jacobs: I was gonna crack a joke and say, and they have it, folks. Cycling is over. Craig Dalton hosts the Gravel Ride podcast, lives at the base of Mount Tam and is riding in digital worlds instead of going outside. But perfectly reasonable, um, you know, perfectly reasonable to be riding indoors in those conditions.

And in general, I'm, I'm just joking if you lo if you love it. Some, I mean, I hear, I've read stories about serious cyclists who've transitioned almost entirely to indoor cycling as a consequence of just life constraints. Having kids, you know, a lot of busy work schedule and whatever, uh, all power to you.

Not my jam, but I can absolutely understand why it's somebody's jam out there. So,

[00:20:16] Craig Dalton: to underscore how crazy the weather's been out here. So obviously like I'm in the Bay Area, we're getting the rain, but when you go up to Tahoe, these atmospheric rivers are creating. Feet upon feet of snow and I, I just caught wind. I, I'm was hoping and intending to do the, the trucky gravel, Fondo, I forget what they call it.

It just had, uh, Carlos on talking about it a few episodes ago in early June, and I just caught wind that they're talking about having to postpone that event in June because some of the areas where they go will likely still be covered in.

[00:20:53] Randall R. Jacobs: Which Tahoe in that area is beautiful, but I do wonder how like people were buried for two weeks. Um, you have to really love winter sports and, and solitude. I, I feel in order to live up there. Uh, but, uh,

[00:21:10] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I w I was up there to, there you go. I, I thought about that on my last trip to Fatbike, but then a storm came in and the guy told me it was horrible for fat biking in an actual storm. So I tabled that. I was up at a boy scout cabin with my son and his scout t troop, and we had to enter the cabin on the second floor because the snow pack in the field was at 10 feet

[00:21:35] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, isn't that a, a thing in the Tahoe area? Like you, you have an a, a lot of the houses have a second floor en entrance because certain times of year that's where you're getting in. And the only way, and maybe the only way you're getting out

[00:21:46] Craig Dalton: I, I don't know about that, but it certainly is logical this, this winter.

[00:21:51] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Uh, that's funny. That's funny.

[00:21:55] Craig Dalton: Um, but onto more forward thinking, writing plans. I mean, I know we're both hoping to get out to Sea Otter in April, so this coming month.

[00:22:05] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, if anyone's gonna be out there, definitely hit us up in the, uh, in the ridership and let's meet up. Uh, there'll be, uh, I know that Enduro is hosting an event. I don't, uh, have the details offhand here. I'll, I'll make, uh, I'll mention it in the next podcast in case people want to join. Uh, and I'll be there.

And, um, Sam Jackson, my colleague, will be there. And hopefully you'll be there as well if you're, if you happen to be, uh, at the show at that time. Um, and yeah, if we hear any, anything cool going on, we'll definitely announce it here so that we can all meet up cuz uh, it's always good to put faces with some of the names and, and to just connect with folks.

[00:22:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah, un undoubtedly. There'll be group rides, et cetera, in the days surrounding Sea Otter, as people probably know, it's a four or five day long festival at this point, with every single discipline of riding available. And I, I, I'm pretty sure there was when we were down there last year, Thursday and Friday and maybe even Saturday, there was multiple gravel ride options from various vendors and partners out.

[00:23:11] Randall R. Jacobs: I am, I'm trying to type and, um, talk at the same time. I'm wondering how many people attend. Uh, I feel like it's on the order of a hundred thousand or so.

[00:23:19] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think

[00:23:20] Randall R. Jacobs: it's

it's huge. And the facts, I, you know, I love, I love the format. Um, so it has become the industry's de facto most important trade show in North America.

Um, and the fact that it's also a festival and the trade show. Um, largely consumer facing, uh, consumer facing, ugh, uh, rider facing. So you can go and talk to the engineers and the product people at the, you know, who, who are behind the, the things that you use or interested in. Uh, I think is really cool. Uh, so I actually skipped Taipei show this year cause I didn't have any.

Strategic sourcing stuff to do, and it's a long flight and I didn't, you know, didn't wanna go to mainland right now. Um, you know, after that. Um, and, you know, I'm gonna go to Sea Otter and see all those people there. Uh, and yeah, it's, it's a lot of fun. Haven't raced it in a while. Do you have

any races planned or.

[00:24:14] Craig Dalton: you know, last year I did that, the gravel race at Sea Otter, which if the timing works, I would do, and I think it may actually be on Friday. Uh, but I will definitely be riding logos six 50 B wheels this year. Last year I think you were in the final kind of production version, and I wrote the 700 C set that you lent.

Which I loved, but it was not the wheel set for this course. Cause it's so rough that the mountain bikers hammered it. There was a lot of just breaking bumps, et cetera. So this year I feel like I have the full knowledge. I'm bringing my titanium unicorn frame with a suspension fork and six 50 B wide ass tires.

And I'm gonna bomb that course if I can, if I can have the time to.

[00:25:04] Randall R. Jacobs: bomb. That course. Like m o

[00:25:05] Craig Dalton: Ba bomb.

[00:25:07] Randall R. Jacobs: Oh, bomb. That course. Okay. I was like, is this, is this some new, new slang the kids are using these days? Um,

[00:25:14] Craig Dalton: like, you know, my, my kid's slang is not solid, so don't, don't look to me for that. But one of the things I wanted to revisit, um, you had mentioned, and this is so true, it's like Seattle Oder has become this moment in the cycling world's year where they reveal some next new technology. Shram just kind of dropped a bomb this, this week, I think it was.

And I, I think we should dig into that cuz I, it, while it was a, a mountain bike centric release today, it's definitely gonna affect the gravel world.

[00:25:49] Randall R. Jacobs: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It's, it's what's next? Um, so where do we wanna start?

[00:25:56] Craig Dalton: Well, why don't you tee up like, what the heck are we talking about? What did I just reference?

[00:26:00] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, so Ceramic has a new, um, group set. It's an electronic mountain bike group set. Um, and the, the key part of this, I, I don't think, you know, the others are covering this in far better detail. Um, escape Collective, actually I think is Dave Rome over there. Um, Yeah, he wrote the, this really long form Well, well done, uh, piece that I'm referencing.

Uh, and I also listened to their podcast discussion on the topic. Um, the key element here is the death of the derailer hangar, um, in the back, which I think is a very good thing, but that has some potentially very negative consequences as well that have nothing to do with the tech and the experience and everything to do with competition and innovation in the bicycle industry.

[00:26:47] Craig Dalton: We'll roll back for a second. The death of the Derailer hangar. How do you, we have derailers. We need derailers. How are we gonna remove the derailer hanger from this equation?

[00:26:57] Randall R. Jacobs: so Derailer hangers, uh, if you go back, um, you know, original Derailers, they had this little extension on the rear drive side dropout of the frame, and it was all metal frames in the early days. Um, and you would have a threaded. You know, a threaded hole that you can screw a derailer into, and if it bent you bent it back out.

It wasn't replaceable. And so if it snapped off, you had to go to a welder or your frame was toast, or it was now a single speed. Um, fast forward you have, you know, the advents of replaceable derailer hangers. Um, and with metal frames, these could be made pretty robust. Um, but every company had their. and anyone who's tried to source a derailer hangar will know.

There's like, this entire business is built around having every single last derailer hanger on hand. Um, which is absurd. And a lot of the designs aren't very good, and even the good ones can be hard to find. Uh, and literally hundreds, hundreds of different skews, um, uh, stocking units. Um, and when you got to composite frame, They needed to be, you know, composite frames, ultra lightweight aluminum frames.

Um, you'd have to make them even lighter so they'd be more prone to bending and braking. and then you add to that wide range drive, trains that use really big cassettes in the back. So this is, you know, it started with 36 and then 42, and now we're at a 52 tooth pie plate in the back. I'm sure somebody will try to one up everyone else and it'll be 53 and you know we'll, we'll, we'll at some point it you'll be riding on your.

Uh, largest cog rather than your tire. Um, and then we'll have 32 ORs and 36 er wheels. But, but anyways, not to go too far down a rabbit hole, but this just resulted in a situation where you had this, this piece that's designed to fail. It's designed to protect the frame and the event of a crash and designed to be replaceable, but it's a pain to replace it cuz there's so many different ones.

Um, and it's just not up to the task. Not to mention it's. um, you know, something that is, that can fail is also not gonna be very stiff. Um, so it's gonna affect shifting. Um, and then the precision with which shifting can be controlled. . It's not just a matter of the derailer alignment. It's also, um, if the derailer is flexing as, uh, sorry, if the hangar is flexing, as the derailer is trying to shift particularly into a larger cog, you know, that's gonna affect shifting performance.

Uh, and then, and, you know, I, I won't be too exhaustive here, but then there's also the fact that you now have another, um, set of tolerances. Between the derailer and the cogs. So, you know, you have the, the cassette itself, you have the end cap, you have the dropout, you have the hangar, and then you finally get to the derailer.

And so that just results in a lot of, of, you know, manufacturing tolerance issues across multiple manufacturers.

So that's how we got here today.

[00:30:05] Craig Dalton: so in the history, so originally metal frame bending, potential for failure there. Um, improvement to that next generation of replaceable derailer hangers, cuz at least if we bent our derailer hangar, we could replace it. It might be hard to replace, but we could replace it. And then what comes next?

[00:30:24] Randall R. Jacobs: so, so, yeah. So we've gotten to a place where, you know, this, this particular solution is no longer. Great. I mean, it's fine. It works. Um, so a direct mount interface, so this is the, um, str, uh, released a few years ago. Their universal derailer hangar, standard U D H, and you can source this anywhere. It's readily available, it's cheap.

Um, it's robust. Um, and a lot of, particularly mountain. Manufacturers have been building to this drive side, rear drive side dropout standard so that it can integrate this universal hangar

[00:31:04] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And as I'm

[00:31:06] Randall R. Jacobs: through axle threads right into.

[00:31:08] Craig Dalton: yeah, so I was gonna say, as I'm kind of visualizing it, that's sort of a largest, large-ish hole in the frame where the axle would go through, and then you're putting the. Derail the replaceable derailer hanger. This, this u d h Derailer hanger through the axle next to the frame.

Kind of in that, in that configuration.

[00:31:28] Randall R. Jacobs: Yes. And that largely solves the issue of having so many different standards. And it is a good standard, it's a well executed, um, derailer hangar as far as derailer hangers go. But it still has

[00:31:42] Craig Dalton: But is that,

[00:31:43] Randall R. Jacobs: in terms of being need, uh, you know, needing to be made in a way that it can fail in the event of a crash.

And if it can fail in the event of a crash, it's gonna be more flexible and so on.

[00:31:54] Craig Dalton: And is that, does that work for both Shram and Shaman? Derailers.

[00:31:59] Randall R. Jacobs: it works for any derailer because it's still the same exact mounting interface for the Derailer. So that's where we get to today with this release. And what I believe is the most, you know, uh, uh, well, I, I think it's, uh, a very significant, um, development, um, in part because of the performance and durability benefits that it provides, but also significantly because of the implications for.

Innovation and comp competition, uh, in the bike industry.

[00:32:31] Craig Dalton: One, one question before we go into that, which is just I think a real critical point to underscore the U D H. Uh, was that an kind of open source design? Could anybody make a U D H Derailer hangar?

[00:32:46] Randall R. Jacobs: Uh, I believe I, I'm not certain, but, um, I wouldn't be surprised because the, um, the strategic benefit of U D H comes from having it implemented across as many bicycles as possible. And so, um, and STRs selling them for cheap, uh, it's not a huge money maker. . I, I, I don't, I can't recall if I said have said this directly on the pod, but I've definitely alluded to such things in other conversations.

You know, I viewed it as a Trojan horse from Day one and a Trojan horse in the sense of, um, you have this hangar. That May is the universal hangar, and it is a Trojan horse for a derailer that bypasses the hangar. And so now my question is, can other derailer makers also attach to the frame in the same way bypassing the hangar.

Or is that unique to str And now STR is the only option that you can have on your bike and a bike manufacturer has to design, has to choose at the design and manufacturing stage, STR or notam, just like they choose Bosch or Shaman or bong at when they're building an e-bike. And that, that would be a rate, a very negative development.

Um, for reasons that we can get into.

[00:34:05] Craig Dalton: Yeah. So we, we leapt forward a little bit, and I just wanna make sure this is not lost because I derailed the conversation. This new d Derailer. Actually does not have that derailer hangar piece. The whole entire derailer, if I'm understanding it correctly, is designed to kind of slot around the frame just as that hangar did, and again, used the uh, through axle as kind of a supporting mechanism that kind of locks it all together.

[00:34:37] Randall R. Jacobs: Um, the, it stays attached without the through axle, but the through axle threads into it. So it attaches to the frames, basically a, a hole, and then it, you know, comes together and, and, and holds itself in place. Um, and it can rotate, uh, and so on. But,

[00:34:53] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's.

[00:34:54] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, the now this new Derailer, um, which is a good thing, attaches and bypasses that hangar.

Now what do you deal in, you know, how do you deal with, uh, like, uh, a crash, right? How does the new Derailer deal with a crash? Well, first off, it's much more inbound because you don't have that hangar. Um, Design that forces you to, you know, have more components hanging further out of the bike. So it's tighter, so it's, it's less exposed.

Um, but then also ceramic has done a really good job of designing a, uh, like a clutch mechanism or, or like a, I forget what they're calling it, but essentially you can impact this thing with a hammer, and it's going to, it's going to move, it's going to give, and then, Push it back into place and the thing is solid.

Um, it's, it would take quite an impact. Um, I suspect having not ridden it have, having not seen their testing data, it'd take quite an impact for this derail to fail or for it to result in forces to the frame that would cause the frame to fail. Uh, instead of the hang, instead of the

[00:35:58] Craig Dalton: it's, it's so interesting, you know, in a world of iterative designs, when you see a leap like this, it's just super interesting and I encourage people to like source a picture of this to see how it kind of sandwiches around the frame. And as Randall as you just described, you know, because the derailer hangar's not in the equation, you do have more kind of girth and protective material right in there.

That's part of the derailer mechanism itself,

[00:36:24] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. Yeah. So, and I, and I would go again, um, not getting paid for this, but I'm, I'm, I'll go ahead and plug Escape Collective dot cc's coverage of this, because it is comprehensive. Um, and it was a, a se one of it was the best one that I dug up in my research about this. Um, though I'd love to, for them to cover some of the economic implications that we can dive into.

[00:36:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Well, let's, I mean, let's talk about that. So, I mean, obviously like this requires the frame to have had that u d h kind of dropout set up to begin with. Now suppo, I mean, I, I would imagine like, okay, if you get a frame like that, you have two options. You could choose a, a new derailer like this, like the one they just release.

Or you could still use that original U D H Derailer hanger, say if you wanted to use a Shaman Drive train.

[00:37:21] Randall R. Jacobs: Correct. And as a consequence, shaman and any other, um, competing derail maker will be stuck using this old interface and not the, this new, more robust one. And so it's a, it, you know, being first to market with it and having patented around all the other ways that it could be implemented or attached to.

Um, I, I don't have a definitive answer on whether or not other dreier makers can, uh, attach to a U D h, um, universal dreier hangar equipped bicycle in this same direct mount way. Um, but if STR has precluded others from attaching in that same way, then it truly was the Trojan horse. That I was concerned about when I first saw this, because the benefit of a universal dror hangar is very obvious.

But now you've, we as an industry have given up a tremendous amount of freedom in terms of IOP interoperability and that, you know, you know, that goes into, they're now calling this a transmission. What does transmission, what's the difference between a transmission and a drive? , all I see is that a transmission means you're not allowed to use other people's components. It's all the same parts, but it now, it is now even more of a walled garden.

Um, then, then it already was as a result of having a closed protocol. So different, you know, the, the shift sh third party shifters can't communicate with strand's, derails, you know, a new chain design, which has some benefits but then doesn't work with other, or they, you know, it's claimed not to work with other people's cassettes and chain rings.

Um, you know, they had the new bo, they had the new spindle standard, which again, like, um, that is more. So, you know, the dub, uh, spindle standard, um, and has some other benefits. But, and then you have the fact that like, as an oem, um, already they were not allowing OEMs to mix and match components from third parties even if they, um, Were compatible or, or if the OEM was taking the risk of it not working.

Um, and in fact, you know, so like in our case, we ended up ha having to buy an entire groupo and then just hold on to the stock we didn't want to use so that we could offer some third party components from say, you know, e thirteens cassette or our aluminum cranks for, you know, more budget option or whatever.

Um, uh, you know, and, and then we end up sitting on some extra STR stock that we were forced to.

[00:39:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. It's super interesting and just super interesting to kind of play this forward in this, you know, does the, does the historic way a derailer attach go away over time? And what happens if you have a fr old frame and parts don't become available because everything's transitioning to this new format?

[00:40:18] Randall R. Jacobs: Well, I think that there's, you know, again, um, still not clear. I would love if, if any listener has, you know, has or wants to dive into ceramic's patents on this, I'll do so myself at some point. Um, I have some clarity on whether or not other third party derails can attach in the same. , that would be, you know, that would be a, a significant, um, significant thing to know.

Um, and, you know, this, this fits the interesting thing here is, um, it fits a pattern, uh, where so already, like, um, there's a lot of patterns around shift lever design and on a road bike, you know, as soon as you have sh you know, shift leaders in levers integrated with the. . Um, well first it was indexing, so instead of friction shifters you had like indexed, um, which I indexing.

So you have those little clicks that knock it into certain gears, and those clicks are used to correspond with a mechanical system with a certain amount of pull. Like the pull ratio of the cable to actuate the derailer. And so, you know, shaman would constantly vary their pull ratio to make their own compat different group sets not compatible with each other or to preclude.

Ironically, uh, grip shifts the precursor to RAM from getting any market share. Uh, and then when that wasn't working quite well enough, they forced o they, they didn't force, they told OEMs like, if you buy a complete group set, you get a 20% discount, or whatever it was. And as a result, it was no longer economic to s to, um, to spec grip shift on your bike. And the ironic thing is, uh, str sued them, won millions of dollars. Um, it that may, I don't know if that lawsuit was existential for them, but certainly, um, had it gone the other way, we might not have str as we know it. Uh, and now we're seeing what for me looks like very analogous sort of, um, anti-competitive, um, tendencies in the bike industry that will.

Cons, we're seeing innovation, but you have to ask the question, what innovation would we see if more people, if more companies were allowed to innovate on the individual components? Uh, and the, and the, you know, interoperability was something that was, uh, considered from the get-go as opposed to very actively tr you know, thwarted.

[00:42:46] Craig Dalton: Yeah. The battle continues, I suppose, and we'll see whether it's uh, through some sleuthing, through patent. Documents or a year from now, let's say another manufacturer comes out with a derailer that attaches in the same way. It's gonna be interesting to see, as you noted early on, this current announcement is a mountain bike groupo, but I, I know several manufacturers including, uh, envy with their new MOG gravel bike, is using this dropout.

So they're certainly prepared on a going forward basis to use. This type of derailer system should one come out specific, uh, in the Explorer Groupo.

[00:43:25] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah. And, um, there's a, a really good case study that I dug up years ago when I was working on the open bike project, which was an attempt to create an open platform for bicycle electronics and software and hardware, um, called Shaman Inside. , uh, and I dug it up and I will make sure that we put it in the show notes for anyone who's curious about the history of, um, you know, Sam and Shaman and, and you know, the evolution of the drier and poll ratios and all this other stuff and how it affects, uh, economics and market dynamics, which as you can tell, I have a little bit of an interest in.

[00:44:01] Craig Dalton: Well, this was fun. I mean, that was big news that came out this week, and certainly if any, you know, if any of our listeners want to jump into the conversation, come into the ridership, that's the ridership, or sorry, www.ridership.com, and look forward to those conversations. I can hold my, I feel like I can hold my own to a certain degree, certainly on the economic side and the game theory and strategy side of things.

But as we get into the deeper technical nuances, you definitely have me in spades.

[00:44:32] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, well, um, I have spent way too much time on this and spoken with, um, When I was doing the open bike projects, you know, every single Taiwanese vendor. Was trying to, uh, get the other Taiwanese vendors to work together on a, on an open platform and things like this. So it's something I've gotten into the weeds in, uh, on, maybe in a uniquely deep way.

Um, so thank you for the opportunity to actually share. I've been wanting to nerd about this sort of thing on the pod since, uh, since joining, and there just hasn't been the appropriate time. But with this, uh, it just seemed like the time. Um, I do wanna close up with one thought on this, um, which is, um, the engineering on this new group set from SCRAM looks outstanding.

They have some super clever stuff in there. Um, and I commend the engineering. The engineering, I, there's a lot of things that. I look at and I was like, wow, what? That never even occurred to me. Like they have this pulley wheel on the hangar that, um, is super skeletal. So it has a lot of space and it's big.

It's one of the, you know, 16 teeth. And they designed it in a way where if, if something gets jammed in there like a stick, well it's an aluminum, um, like spider. That the bearings are in, and then there's a, uh, a plastic, uh, piece that is the actual cogs and that can spin independent of that spider. this is brilliant.

So, so if that wheel, if the something gets jammed in the spider and stops it, that'll keep spinning. Um, so, you know, there's lots of clever stuff like this and so I don't want to at all take away from the design and the engineering, the execution on this and the fact that it is genuine, um, a genuine leap forward and innovation for the industry.

I'm just concerned about the implications for innovation generally, and h. The loss of, uh, competition even until now, meaning that, you know, maybe we would've had these innovations much sooner if we didn't have these dynamics.

[00:46:36] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Important to note and acknowledge that amazing innovation that the design team over there had worked on. You sort of wonder if they were just given a blank slate and said, you know, think about performance in the derailer and the dropout and the hangar. Don't be constrained by anything, and this is what they came up with.

[00:46:57] Randall R. Jacobs: you need a lot of resource and a lot of market power to make something like that work, which is why, you know, you only see, uh, really swam and shaman able to do it these days. And, uh, campy has done a good job with ecar in creating a competitive product. But it's, it's, it's not at, um, you know, it's not electronic.

It's not, it's not really moving the needle that much. It's just an extra cog for the most part. Uh,

[00:47:20] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:47:21] Randall R. Jacobs: But,

[00:47:22] Craig Dalton: Well, super good to catch up with you and my friend.

[00:47:24] Randall R. Jacobs: yeah, we've been nerding for a bit. Should we, uh, save, save the other things we had on our list for a future conversation, I suppose.

[00:47:32] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, I think so. I think so. We're good to catch up and we'll, we'll chat again soon and we'll get all these links in the show notes so people can dig deep, read all about this and form their own opinions.

[00:47:43] Randall R. Jacobs: Yeah, and absolutely drop some comments too in the ridership. Um, I would love to get some external perspective here cuz usually this is just a, you know, industry insider talk and, um, I don't know that this has been discussed in a public forum all that much. So, uh, would love to hear, uh, the community's input.

That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. As Randall just mentioned. We'd love to hear from you on this topic at the ridership, just visit www.theridership.com to join the conversation.

Big, thanks to our friends at hammerhead for sponsoring the show this week. If you're interested in a crew to make sure to use the code, the gravel ride. And add a heart rate monitor to your order and you'll get that heart rate monitor for free. Just simply visit hammerhead.io. If you are interested or able to support the podcast.

Please does it buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride? Or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated in the podcast world. Until next time here's to finding some dirt under your wheels.

This week we sit down with yet another friend of the pod, Michelle Duffy from Life Time. We catch up on the upcoming kickoff for the 2023 Life Time Grand Prix and some of the changes in store for athletes and fans.

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[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the show, I'm excited to welcome back Michelle Duffy from lifetime to talk about the lifetime grand Prix for 2023. I know this show. Isn't all about racing, but I'm a fan of the sport. I love riding. I love participating in my own way at the back of the pack. But also like following the front of the pack. And I found that the lifetime grand Prix added a lot of fun

to my 2022 fandom. As I was able to follow the battles throughout the year. And even after the season, I was able to relive some of those moments through a YouTube series that lifetime published about the grand Prix that allowed us to get behind the scenes with some of the athletes and see some of the personalities and some of the action and drama we might not have seen.

As a casual fan, the lifetime grand Prix is back for 2023. They've made some tweaks to the number of events you can now drop to events. So I wanted to have Michelle back at the beginning of the season to just talk about some of those changes. To reflect on the action from 2022 and just generally catch up. Michelle puts a lot of energy into the gravel cycling community, and I'm always happy to highlight those efforts.

Before we jump in, I do need to thank this week. Sponsor athletic greens.

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For podcast listeners, our friends at athletic greens have given us a free year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs. If you ordered today. Simply visit athletic greens.com/the gravel ride to get your age. The one on the way today.

With that said let's dive right into my conversation with Michelle Duffy.

[00:03:23] Craig Dalton: Hey Michelle, welcome back to the show.

[00:03:25] Michelle Duffy: Thank you for having me back.

[00:03:27] Craig Dalton: It's good to see you. I was looking back in my notes and it looks like it was just, just a little less than a year ago. We sat down at Sea Otter, which was the first event of the inaugural lifetime Grand Prix.

[00:03:40] Michelle Duffy: Yes. It's crazy to think it's almost the otter time again.

[00:03:44] Craig Dalton: I know I've been getting the emails and I'm like, gosh, I gotta get my stuff together, and it's exciting to have it kick off.

[00:03:51] Michelle Duffy: Oh yeah. It's like the kickoff of everyone's cycling year. I feel like.

[00:03:56] Craig Dalton: And such a big one at that with all the, the expo activity and the so many different forms of racing going on, it literally does cover like every discipline of cycling. I feel like.

[00:04:07] Michelle Duffy: I, yeah, that's what's so special, like from the industry perspective, mountain biking, road gravelly, everyone's together. Um, so I'm really looking forward to getting back to Monterey.

[00:04:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure. I thought it would be a good opportunity to just sit down with you again and reflect back on that inaugural season of the Lifetime Grand Prix. Such a interesting series to kind of infuse into the gravel world, and I'm sure you learned a lot along the way. I just wanted to sort of get your basic reflections of the season.

Maybe some of the key moments that you'd highlight.

[00:04:42] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, definitely. And I'm, I'm excited that sometime has passed too. We, we definitely reflected immediately after and during. Um, but now that sometimes passed and we're heading into the new year, it feels. There's been more time to sit back and think about, you know, both constructively, what we would've changed, but also celebrate our wins, which is often hard at times, um, because you're always looking for ways to be better.

But, uh, enough times pass that. I think we have a clearer vision of what went right and wrong and

[00:05:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, and I know, I know from hearing from some of the athletes that you guys were collecting feedback along the way, which was great as well. I know you went into this whole process really talking to athletes, getting a lot of feedback. It was difficult to make a series that was gonna make everybody happy, whether it was the events or the points or what have you.

But it seems like in evidence from talking to athletes, you guys really went out there and just asked questions and got feedback along the way, which is great.

[00:05:49] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. I think in the ideation phase it was easier for us to speak to those athletes that are, you know, in our networks, right? Like, Preexisting relationships. Um, but that doesn't necessarily cover all of the participants that were in the Lifetime Grand Prix. So it was important for us at just over the halfway point, we collected feedback and then, um, at the end of the season, both face to face and through email and phone call, have had many a conversation with athletes and brands and, um, just trying to understand needs.

But at the end of the day, we have. I mean, 75 to 80% of last year's field is back with us this year. So while there were definitely areas for us to, to work through, I also feel like that that's a win. Right. Um, having so many of our inaugural class back.

[00:06:42] Craig Dalton: just to set the stage a little bit, so last year's series was 30 men and 30 women. in the series. The series was, and correct me if I'm wrong here, six events with the option to drop one score.

[00:06:57] Michelle Duffy: That's right. Yes.

[00:06:59] Craig Dalton: Okay. So looking back at 2022, what were some of the biggest surprises that you found throughout the year?

[00:07:07] Michelle Duffy: Um, I think some of the, the major surprises were just the nuances that go into building a series like this. Um, , you know, these events were preexisting for us. So in terms of operationally executing the series, um, that, that comes second nature to the team. But all of the other nuance that comes with building a series, especially one that kind of grew to be, I mean, I don't wanna use, you know, too premium of a word choice here, but, that did become kind of this revered thing in, in North America in just a year.

Um, there were many a time where we had internal conversations and we're like, okay, what are we building? Like, what can, what can the lifetime Grand Prix be if we, um, focus and invest in this properly? And not just financially invest, but. , you know, that gathering the insights, investing the resources and time, um, to really lay the groundwork to build something that can be huge for American cycling five, seven years down the road.

And I think that was the biggest surprise, just like how much it took off and continued. Uh, think we're still seeing like new. New, um, comers to the series through some of the content that we've created and like the momentum there. Um, but then also just the, the nuance that became a, a bit intimidating at times.

[00:08:44] Craig Dalton: when, when you think about sort of the goals you set out for, uh, for the Grand Prix last year. Were you guys successful in achieving them and what were they? Are you looking to kind of, I know you're looking obviously to foster the growth of off-road cycling in the United States. You're presumably also looking to continue to grow the, the Lifetime brand and those specific lifetime events.

Has it had that type of net effect?

[00:09:11] Michelle Duffy: I think so. Well, no, I, I, I do believe, yes, it has, um, our primary goal with the Lifetime Grand Prix is to create fans. I, I mean, most simply put the word we use internally as fandom, but to regenerate the interest from not. Professional cycling enthusiasts, but people who ride a bike to care about what's going on at the, the front of the pack.

And like, why, you know, why does, why should the journey person care? Um, I think it creating fans creates more professionalism around a sport. And, you know, more professionalism inspires youth to wanna ride a bike, be like x to be like Keegan Swenson or Hailey Smith. And. . If we can create that, if we can create more fans of the sport from a particip participatory perspective and then also inspire more youth to want to stay on a bike, then we're inadvertently fostering the growth of the sport of cycling from a mass participation perspective as well.

Um, and do I think we accomplished that? I think yes, but I think it's a long-term commitment to truly, uh, be able to make change. We did, and I think Keegan says this in the docu-series, like there is maybe in the last few minutes of the big sugar episode, people came up to him who previously didn't know who he was, and they.

he inspired them to get on a bike or they became a fan of him through the Lifetime Grand Prix. And that's, that's what we're trying to create, um, this like symbiotic relationship between math participant and elite athlete coming together in one place, a shared goal. Um, and then with the Doerries, which I'm sure.

Get into at some point. But we did create this six episode docu-series that lives on YouTube. By YouTube because there's no barrier of entry because to create fans, you need to eliminate barriers. Um, that audience has, has grown. We're up and over 350,000 views across the series right now. And, you know, we don't have 350,000 participants at our events.

Right? So they're coming from else.

[00:11:28] Craig Dalton: Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I think going back for a minute, definitely the structure of the season allowed fans to. , like look forward to something. I think prior to the existence of this type of series, you might see someone do well at Unbound and then totally lose them for the rest of the year. So this was a really nice way as a fan to kind of just start to get familiar with the names and have something to look forward to for that next event in the series.

And definitely for me, like it did accumulate over the course of the year so that everything got more interesting. Post crusher in the tusher to figure out, well, who could possibly win this entire series, and, uh, particularly on the women's side. It was just really exciting throughout the entire year.

[00:12:18] Michelle Duffy: Um, yeah. And, and while Keegan rode away with it for a first, for the men's side, there was also a really tight, um, tight field there going on leading into big sugar. So both for the women's and men's, um, overalls there a lot was riding on that last event, which made it really interesting to follow through the whole.

[00:12:40] Craig Dalton: Yeah, and I think what was interesting with only one potential, um, event to drop at the onset, when I heard that, that seemed totally reasonable. But when you saw injuries and illness come into play and people being forced to drop races early in the season, it really did become, uh, pretty onerous for them to make sure that they did well at every remaining event.

[00:13:04] Michelle Duffy: Absolutely. And that, that did, um, come into play when leading into 2023 and some adjustments we've made.

[00:13:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah, and we can get into that. Since you did mention the, the Call of a Lifetime series, which was super well produced. I mean, just speaking from my own perspective, I very much enjoyed watching it, and I encourage everybody to do so on YouTube because you did get a glimpse at some of the interpersonal relationships of the riders, some of the.

Rivalries that exist out there, and just general insight into the personalities. I know originally at the beginning of last year, um, you were working with flow bikes. I'm trying to do some live coverage. Had the call of the Wild Series also been in the works for the entire year or was that something that happened in lieu of flow?

Not really being able to get into the action as you had hoped.

[00:13:54] Michelle Duffy: We were focused on both initiatives. So we contracted Shannon with cold collaborative, uh, prior to Sea Otter, and he was out there recording already. Um, actually, , that was our primary focus, and then later in the conversation flow came in and um, we were excited to be able to provide both opportunities. Um, obviously that didn't pan out all year, uh, but the cold collaborative and Call of a Lifetime series was always in the works.

[00:14:24] Craig Dalton: Got it. It must have been pretty challenging that for them to kind of figure out which athletes to focus on. Were they, were they filming across the board with numerous athletes and we only ended up to getting to see a couple storylines just given the amount of time they had for the episodes.

[00:14:40] Michelle Duffy: Um, I think this was a, a challenge and a learning, but can't, I mean, there's no way that we can really storyline across. 60, 70 athletes. So we'll take a, a slightly different approach this year into to mining those stories. But we pretty much got to meet everyone that spent time on camera. Um, the cold collaborative team, we, we trusted, we trust them and, um, put.

Them in a position where they had creative freedom because they are so amazing at what they do. And so they did mine a lot of the stories and really there's a lot of focus, of course, on the front of pac because it was a more consolidated story for us to be able to tell. Um, some adjustments we're looking for towards next year is like, uh, widening that net and ensuring that we're telling the stories of not just those in the top five with the preexisting platform, but you know, mirroring the.

Fully supported professional athlete with the young rider that's still in college because That's interesting for people too.

[00:15:48] Craig Dalton: Yeah, for sure. I mean, across all those athletes, I'm sure there's, last year there was 30 great female stories, 30 great male stories that could have been told,

[00:15:57] Michelle Duffy: Exactly.

[00:15:59] Craig Dalton: but that's awesome. And it sounds like that project is gonna continue through this year.

[00:16:04] Michelle Duffy: Yep, we're, we're finalizing exactly what our content plan looks like and hopefully we can go out with that soon. You know, we, something that was hard for us all years. We were investing all of this time, effort. Energy finances into producing Call of a Lifetime. But there was no product really to show for it until, you know, the end of end of 2022, beginning of 2023.

Um, but this year, now that we've set the, the groundwork, we'll be able to go out with what our, what our plans are. And we are working right now with Shannon on developing something really cool for

[00:16:39] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that's, there's an interesting opportunity there. Cause I had, I sort of totally forgot frankly, about like the possibility of a video series and then when you announced it earlier this year, I was super enthusiastic to watch it. But, I would've probably liked to have seen snippets from other athletes earlier in the year, even if it's just on social media, just to get to know them and again, increase my fandom of someone that I wasn't familiar with prior to the season.

[00:17:06] Michelle Duffy: Yep, exactly. And we, we partnered with Mazda and, and have a multi-year commitment with them to produce these athlete vignettes. So we did dig a little bit deeper into six of their stories, and those are available on YouTube as well. Um, shameless plug, but, uh, we'll be digging in and, and telling more stories.

This year, um, whether that's from the Grand Prix perspective or just the community that rallies around the Grand Prix, I think both of those are really interesting and, um, throughout the planning of the Grand Prix, it was important for us to outline like, who is our audience. And I always talk about it in this like reverse funnel where you have your bullseye, that's this person's an avid cyclist and they know who is winning the events.

And then it kind of, the net gets broader, um, from there. But it's important that the content that we're creating doesn't just speak to the preexisting cycling. , um, which I think the series does a really good job of being relatable, broader than that. But if you take that out, then it's like, okay, who, what about the person that rides a bike, but maybe they don't necessarily participate in events?

What inspires them to wanna participate in events? And then it's set further than that. It's like the outdoor recreator. I'm a backcountry skier, but I understand the content that you're producing. And now I'm inspired to get on a bike. And so like they're all kind of working. making someone a fan, but first they need to get on a bike.

And then when they get on a bike, they participate and then they get to meet the athlete. And, um, then they really care about what you're produc.

[00:18:37] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's true. You know, it's interesting, I was talking to an athlete yesterday and I think one of the challenges, obviously like the, the marquee distance and the professional distance of these races is quite challenging. Regardless of whether it's an Unbound 200 or the climbing at Crusher and the Tusher, they can seem very intimidating, obviously, to the new athlete.

Yet almost all these events, probably all of 'em do have shorter distances, which are. To be more inviting for the recreational athlete to pin on their first number. And I think there's probably an opportunity for all of us in in interested in events to kind of continue to embrace and make sure that audience feels welcome and accomplished for finishing a 40 mile event.

They don't need to do a 200 mile event.

[00:19:23] Michelle Duffy: Exactly. Yeah. And that's the Grand Prix is so amazing and uh, we were already seeing more elites coming to the events and that kind of inspire the Grand Prix, right? It's like this is happening, people are making a living off of participating in these events and we can ignore the fact that it's happening or we can create something.

produces good for the mass participant as well, because at the end of the day, the, the paying customer or a mass participant like that is the ethos of the event. That's the person that's one supporting the events in the business that we're creating. They're supporting the communities that they're visiting, and we, we can't get, we can't let the Grand Prix distract us from like what the actual heartbeat of the event is.

And that'll be important for us this year in storytelling as well as like, This is happening at the front of the event, and that's super special. And let's let you peek behind the curtain and understand that, you know, Sarah Stern felt a ton of pressure going to all of these events the same way. You probably put a lot of pressure on yourself going to these events, but, but it's different.

But you can relate, um, But also what about the community that's making up these events? Because that is what the elites are coming to be a part of. It's not the in, it's the inverse for some, some are now coming to some of these events because the elites are there, but the elites wanted to come to be a part of the mass participant experience.

Um, so it'll be really important for us to, I mean, never lose focus of that. That's our north.

[00:20:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, it's been interesting as some of the announcements came out around the changes of for Unbound and the professional and the rules as they apply to the Mass Start and Arrow bars, how clearly you guys were conscious of the fact that. , just because you're making a decision for the professional athletes doesn't mean that same decision should apply to the recreational athletes, specifically around the idea of arrow bars.

I thought that discussion was quite interesting.

[00:21:23] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. And look like there's no right answer to a lot of these things because the space is evolving and gravel cycling while it has existed for. At, well, it's existed forever. You could always ride on gravel, but as a quantifiable sport for 15 plus years, you know, going on 20 years now, that's still new.

It's junior, like the game of basketball has existed for over a century. Um, so we're still in this like new phase. The athlete, the professional. , you know, we've been trying to listen and make decisions that are the best decisions for the safety of the athlete and the integrity of the event. Um, that doesn't mean it's the solution for everyone right now.

And as we were going through, what does, you know, arrow bars or no arrow bars and all the, like the drama, um, surrounding the elites as they're figuring out what it means to be an elite in the sport. is the person that's coming from Alabama that's gonna take them, you know, the maximum amount of time to complete 200 miles, and they're gonna ride majority of the event out there solo.

And they need to have the ability to be in comfort positions just for them to get across the finish line. And that's always been a part of the experience. So while we were having a lot of internal debate and external debate, when we stepped back and thought about it, it's like, well, who's to say? if they're, I've always stood really strong in like, no, they're coming out here to experience the mass participant experience, and that's why the elites started to come.

At the same time, they're making a livelihood and we need to ensure that in order for them to continue to make that livelihood, we're providing. an experience that, you know, someone taking them out with arrow bars in the first seven miles doesn't make or break the paycheck that they bring home. That's not the case for everyone.

So if we separate these two starts, it allows us to ensure that the integrity of the event for those that are racing for their livelihood and their paycheck , um, we can isolate that experience.

[00:23:41] Craig Dalton: Yeah,

[00:23:42] Michelle Duffy: And, you know, we made the joke like, we're gonna get you the heck outta Dodge, but like, let's get the. out of there, and then we can provide the same experience we've provided for 16 years to everybody else.

[00:23:54] Craig Dalton: yeah. And I mean, obviously it's up to each individual rider to make good decisions around when they should be in arrow bars. That's the challenge, right? Like some, it's like they're perfectly fine if you're out there by yourself, but cornering and doing the things that you shouldn't do in Aerobars, that's just, people just need to make good choices there.

[00:24:11] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. Agree. And, and there's other events in our portfolio that remove, we are removing the use of Arrow bars in general, an event like Crusher has never allowed Arrow bars because you climb up and you descend and there's never a time that you're on flats and should be in arrow bars in that event.

[00:24:28] Craig Dalton: Yeah. The other thing that obviously you've had to grapple with is just, uh, the women and men starting together or separate. Do you wanna talk about like, the thought process behind how that's panning out this year?

[00:24:42] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. I mean, continuing to, to listen. I think there. I mean, there's been a couple years now of debate on what is the right, the right way to approach at a mass participation event, the start of the women to ensure that they have a level playing field. Um, our approach is varying, depending on course, uh, speaking for, you know, sea Otter and Schwam again, and Crusher, for example.

Women do have their own start. , but for an event like Unbound, they've always been in with the masses and there's just a huge difference between the field sizes and um, that many people rolling out of Emporia as well as from a media coverage perspective. It's super challenging. Um, To cover and we, I think, have done a very good job of making a cognizant effort to ensure we assign a team specific to the women.

However, to give that like equal playing field from a media coverage perspective, a safety perspective rolling out of town, and then also an awareness of where the competitors are. For Unbound, the women will have their own elite women will have their own separate. two minutes after the elite men and eight minutes before the masses.

Uh, an event like Big Sugar or the Rad we're still evaluating, but that very well could be a mass. A mass start there.

[00:26:08] Craig Dalton: yeah. I think it's super interesting and a lot of event organizers I've spoken to this year. Are just playing around with different models and I think to your point, a lot of it will be course dependent. A lot of it will be just affording tens of minutes with the women having their own isolated experience, cuz obviously once.

The rest of the mass participants start several minutes before. Eventually there will be intermingling and there will be the same types of drafting opportunities that have been in the sport forever for the women. But I do think it's meaningful that the women will be able to understand who is ahead of them, who is behind them at that moment in time in which integration happens.

And then most of the women athletes that I've spoken to kind of acknowledge that, you know, there's a strategy around drafting with men, and sometimes you're gonna get in over your head and you're gonna go too hard. But that might be an investment in your strategy to get ahead early on in the race and then plug away on your own while others will roll the dice and play the strategy a little differently.

[00:27:11] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, exactly. And. , um, I think through, through the Grand Prix. I hope and, and believe that it has also deepened the field, um, of women out there. And if you look at an event like Big Sugar, we saw more women riding together at big sugar. Granted, there were points on the line, and so a lot of them did stay together.

But I mean, there was a pack of nine women in places, you know, two through 10 working together for, for much of that event. And, um, we haven't seen that at a, at a lot of events. Usually the women are dispersed, so I think their strategies are changing as.

[00:27:55] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah. And I, yeah, I mean, and all this comes into play in the background with the points of the Grand Prix in general, like how they need to ride, how aggressive they need to be on a, on a particular day. I do imagine that you'll start seeing athletes just really taking a lot of risk because they've got nothing to lose.

Like you think about Page. Big sugar, like she had nothing to lose at that point, to roll the dice and go long in solo and see what happened.

[00:28:22] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, exactly.

[00:28:24] Craig Dalton: Yeah. As you look back to 2022, and I know we've drifted a little bit into 2023 already, but were there any sort of favorite or surprising moments that stood out for you?

[00:28:34] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, I mean, you just touched on one, but, uh, Paige on Weller and Brayton Langs wins at Big Sugar and Schwam again, I. Love the underdog dark horse story. Um, PA both Paige and Braden were, I mean, transparently were fringe riders for us in the selection process going into 2022. Um, There were a few team members, myself included, making cases for each of them as to why they should be selected.

And, um, they were, they were both dark courses and, um, it was really, really special for not just myself, but members of our team to see those two take a win. You know, Braden being the youngest male in the field last year and an up and coming talent, you just love to see and hope that it inspires. The other individuals riding in his age range, where it'll often we see drop off on the bike, um, you know, if they can, you know, see what he's accomplishing.

Maybe it inspires them to keep riding or those young riders that have looked up to him. And this year we have even younger riders as part of the Grand Prix. And then someone like Paige coming from a running background. We dug into, into her during the application process and saw, you know, she was fifth at gravel world on a borrowed bike and , she was doing some eSports on Swift and, um, there was potential there we thought.

And to see that come to fruition for her was really, really special.

[00:30:10] Craig Dalton: Yeah, and super cool. I had her on at the end of last year just to see her be afforded the sponsorship support to really lean into it and not have to, you know, do double duty between her work and the hospital is, it's great to see.

[00:30:25] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. Agree. I mean, I think that's the case for, for both of those two, honestly, that those wins for both Braden and Paige. I think. Um, Allowed them, the opportunity enabled, helped enable them to have some of the sponsorship opportunities that they have this year,

[00:30:44] Craig Dalton: Yeah.

[00:30:45] Michelle Duffy: and it switched things up. We were talking about the same few riders all year because that top three was kind of interchanging, so that was cool

[00:30:53] Craig Dalton: Yeah, absolutely. So as we talk about 2023, what are kind of the major changes that have happened kind of structurally in the Grand Prix that we should be aware of?

[00:31:04] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, I think our goal with the Grand Prix, is to keep things simple so that people can follow it. Um, you know, no slight to, to the world tour, but it can be hard to follow things like the Tour de France because if you're not ingrained in the sport, it's like how many points did they get? And what does this Jersey mean

Um, our goal is really to keep things simple so that, you know, those that are new to following cycling can follow it and, and. Still the goal this year we evaluated our point structure because right now it's just waterfall point structure. Um, your points are the inverse of your place. So last year we had 30 men and women.

So if you finished first, you got 30 points. If you finished second, you got 29. And so it flowed. So this year we decided to keep the point structure the same. Um, however we are. , uh, looking at 70 athletes, 35 men and 35 women. So an extra five men and women. Um, I think we're gonna stay at this number. Uh, I don't, you know, next year's I hope isn't gonna be 40 and, and so on.

Um, but the intent for that change is the drop off that occurred throughout the year. Um, by the end of the season, we had just over 20 men and 20 women remain. . And so our, our goal is to have, you know, a, a deep field and ensure that it's, it's deep across every event. So that extra five on each side, also just based on demand, uh, felt like the right move.

And then additionally, instead of six events, um, we are going to have seven, one of which we called the wild cards. So Grand Prix athletes applied for the series before we revealed what that seventh event will be. And noting that our intent is that our events do. So next year, um, in 2024, I don't, it may not just be the wild card event that rotates.

We may switch up all of the events. Um, you know, we'll probably have a few, like an Unbound and a Leadville and a big sugar that would remain. But we could see some of the other events, uh, switching up each year. Um, but one will remain a wild card in which athletes don't know what it will be. and, um, they can drop two events instead of one.

And this was something, this was a decision that we made after overwhelming feedback in our surveys around, um, some of the challenges. And you mentioned it earlier in the call with injury and sickness. Um, Were forced to drop out even if they weren't prepared because maybe they, uh, flattered and dnf at an event and that still counts.

But then they got sick and had to miss an event. Like they're pretty much out of the points now because they have two zeros on their scorecard. So allowing them the ability to miss two events for everything we're hearing is like athletes intend to come to just about every event. Um, but the other thing that it does allow, , and this is important, is understanding that our season is demanding and it spans from April to October and it is the primary focus on, on the calendar.

But there are other events that, um, there's either sponsor obligations to attend or just like for the health of the sport. It can't just be lifetime events that these riders are attending. So, Hope and obviously expect that athletes are showing up to, to at least five and, and hope they come to more than that, but it does allow if there's a conflict with another event them to go and attend that event as well.

[00:34:51] Craig Dalton: Yeah, like everything, I think it's just gonna be interesting to see whether it, it, you know, in many cases this past year, it would've allowed, you know, like Payson or someone who had to miss two events to be competitive in the standings, having missed those two events. But for athletes that it were healthy throughout the year.

If we start seeing strategy around dropping an event, knowing that they have to, you know, they're, I think with the exception, Unbound and maybe crusher that have their own very specific skillset, maybe that is required for them. You know, whether some people just opt out of one or two of those just saying, Hey, I'm not a climber.

It's not worth burying myself to try to be competitive and crusher because I have these two drop races that I can apply.

[00:35:36] Michelle Duffy: I do think that's true, and I kind of view that as like the negative to having the two drop events. But I think it's the right move. We believe it's the right move. Um, just for like the health of. The athlete. What we also don't want to happen is an athlete feel like, like Pete, he wrote on a broken hand at Sea Otter because he knew that like with his wife expecting there was a chance he was gonna miss another event.

So it was really important for him to finish that event. Um, whereas like knowing that there could have been two drops, like we don't want an athlete, Hannah Otto, she. Unbound consciously. Like she didn't want to bury herself at Unbound. And then she followed concussion protocol, but felt the pressure to it to participate in, um, schwa again, because otherwise she'd be out of the series and she did not, you know, enjoy the experience out there.

And it was probably premature. Would she have made a different decision had we. allowed two drops last year maybe. And I think that's something that's also really important I didn't touch on is the, just the overall health of the athlete. And we heard that too in the feedback like there's pressure to show up and race sick because you, you could have only dropped one event.

So I think this change will, I mean, it's seemingly well received. The negative is. You know, athletes that aren't good on a mountain bike, and so they're just gonna drop two mountain bike events and or like, not wanna bury themselves like you said. So they're gonna skip unbound and let Bill. That's, we hope that we don't see too much of that, but risk like those, that those that were in the top 10 pretty much were consistent in their attendance across the whole series.

[00:37:24] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think it strikes the right balance. I mean, obviously we'll have this conversation a year from now and we'll see how it came to play, but I don't suspect, to your point, like the people at the front end of both categories, they're not gonna make, they're not gonna drop things willy nilly. In fact, I was speaking to a professional athlete yesterday and they were like, look, if someone was hyper-competitive in the Grand Prix and did not do un.

There may very well be an asterisk in their victory at the end of the year to say like, but they didn't do this one thing,

[00:37:55] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I think just looking at, at the overall scorecard and talking to many of the athletes, it's like, well, of course we're gonna show up to all of the events. Like that's our intent. Because if you can knock off a. A bad day, a 10th place that could make or break your odds of being in the top three.

[00:38:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You mentioned the expansion of the rider numbers from 30 to 35 in each category. Um, super cool to see. Did you see like a different profile of athlete, whether it be different nationalities or what have you start to come to the table this year? Cause I understand, and you commented on this earlier, that, you know, the first year it was the first year, people didn't know.

It seemed like it was gonna be a great idea, but I did talk to a few athletes. Well, I just dunno how it's gonna pan out. I already had my schedule figured out, so I didn't, didn't apply. Just curious like what this year's application looked like and, and what were your takeaways from it?

[00:38:53] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. Well, we had more applications in year two than year one and more qualified applicants. And I don't, I don't mean to, um, that as a, any, uh, derogatory, uh, towards the VA first year's applications, but in year one there was a lot of. either jokes, , some, some people that were, I don't know if they were joking around or, you know, just not in contention.

Um, at the everyday cyclist, you know, some applicant applications that said things around, like, I've applied for the Leadville lottery four times and this is, you know, just another opportunity for me to, to apply. Um, there was also a lot of, uh, like sub. Applications that came through in the first year. And of course there were dozens of elite applications that came through because look at the depth of field.

I think in year two what we saw happen is elites, many, many of them, um, that live here in the US and Canada, but then also internationally. And then we had to make some hard decisions around like equal athlete, um, athletic ability. Someone lives internationally versus domestically. And we do have an international field this year with riders coming from, you know, South Africa and Australia and um, Canada and a few other countries.

But, uh, those that were like fringe , we, I, we did prioritize domestic, um, because. you know, our, our hope is to create some, some heroes here in the us.

[00:40:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's interesting. Sometimes it's easy to forget that lifetime is a business as well. And you know, growing an international audience only has certain value to you guys versus domestic audience.

[00:40:55] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, and it's actually like we talked about that at length because. Having all of these different countries represented would be really cool. But beyond the business piece of it, it's like the health of cycling fandom in Europe is doing just fine. But if you have a bike race in Europe, like. And you can get access to the downtown of a major city and you have tens of thousands of people show up to cheer 'em in and they're lining the streets.

You have a bike race here and it's like, look at like road cycling. They're far and few between. There's barely any fans that show up. And so the goal, like we're, we can't lose sight of the goal and that's to make sure that we're converting people who live here into fans of the sport. Not even. from a future participatory perspective, but just in, you know, to become fans simply.

[00:41:51] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. One of the things we didn't dig into was the addition of that wildcard event and what that wildcard event ended up being. Can you talk about which event you selected and why?

[00:42:05] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, we selected an event in Trinidad, Colorado going into its third year called the Rad Dirt Fest. Um, it is a gravel event. The distance is 110 miles, and it's a high altitude, gravel, gravel race. Um, the difference between this and like a big sugar beyond the altitude is it's, uh, big long climbing miles and.

It's fast gravel, . It's, you know, champagne gravel, as they say. It's, it's almost like road in many ways. It's not very technical at all. Um, we. . There's a few reasons why this became the Wild Card. Part of it is schedule because our 2023 event calendar is already planned, and we wanted to give some breathing room between events because some of our events kind of stack up against one another.

For example, like Tahoe Trail, mountain Bike Race is the week after Crusher and the Tusher. Um, so getting from Utah to Tahoe, and coming right off of Crusher, like that just wasn't super viable. So if you like go through the list, there's also like some Northwood events that we have, like lut in 99 er, but they're already going up there for Schwam again.

So wanna be mindful of travel costs because while it's not expensive to stay in cable, Wisconsin, it's expensive to get there, and um, to have someone, to have a rider go up for loosen as well, like that's just a big. , it has a big impact on them and travel. The travel expenses to do the series are super high.

So those were factors as well as like we do care deeply about the communities that these events are taking place in. And Trinidad is a community that. is up and coming. I kind of view it as like an Emporia many years ago with a completely different personality. It's a hidden gem right on the border of New Mexico.

It's funky, spunky, artsy down home. Like if there, if Lifetime was capable of producing a grassroots, gravel event, the Rad Dirt Fest, is it? And after seeing the. Elation out of athletes after Schwam again, which is like a good down home mountain bike event up in northern Wisconsin. This feels like the gravel version of that.

It's just, it's truly like an endearing, eclectic place. And the vibes are good and the just, it's a, it's such a fun event. Um, our team actually says it's like one of our favorite events in the portfolio. and then selfishly, like, I hope the event grows . I'll just be be honest about that. Like we're into the third event, uh, third year and, um, that wasn't the deciding factor at all.

But I really do hope that the event grows because I really will. Even Trinidad as a community, they're, they're being heavily invested in right now, just from people moving out of Denver. But, um, hopefully they can, they can keep up, keep up with that. They've been a boomer bus town, but they're really focused on outdoor.

[00:45:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's a town that listeners of the podcast may be familiar with because we had, uh, local one Del Roka on who. Developed the original Trinidad Gravel field guide and put down some amazing routes down there, and came on the podcast just to talk all those things about the community. So I do think it's really interested and, and I'm excited to see that event grow as well, and hopefully just contributed to that town and that community in the same way that Unbound has contributed to Emporia.

[00:45:45] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. Juan has kind of been that, um, steer head in that, in that community and, and showing people. These roads, you can go out and, and utilize them with your bicycle and, uh, you know, the big hu hunting culture around there, but how are we celebrating outdoor rec? And they've also just brought in really great figureheads for their, like, economic development and, um, outdoor recreation, et cetera.

So I, I, I'm excited to see how that town.

[00:46:16] Craig Dalton: Yeah. On that, on that decision to make the Rad Fest, uh, the wildcard event. You mentioned the many things that kind of went into that. One of the kind of things that have been hanging over the Grand Prix for a few years is just this balance of mountain bikey gravel racing. How are you guys trying to strike that balance?

Because obviously adding another pure gravel event into the series isn't making it any more technical for the mountain bike cruise.

[00:46:45] Michelle Duffy: Yeah, it's not, and that could change in 2024. Um, I think it's important to note that like this is an off-road series surrounding mass participation events and some of the like super technical type courses that have kind of been thrown our way. It's like, well that doesn't necessarily always cater to the mass participant.

And that's the most important thing is that we're marry. This series with mass participation events. So like that is one factor. The second is there's seven events, so there's gonna be an off kilter there between mountain bike and gravel, but um, that can change every year. And maybe we'll see more mountain bike in 2024.

Um, I think that there's a good chance that we will, but, for this year. I mean, it's an off-road series. I, I think there's so many sensitivities and I totally respect all of the elite athletes. So I say this tongue in cheek, but I'm also like, you guys get over it. Like this is the lineup and it's gonna be a good time.

And I mean, yeah.

[00:47:58] Craig Dalton: I think one of the most exciting things that you've revealed in this podcast is just the notion that 2024 could look a lot different.

[00:48:06] Michelle Duffy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's like part of the, the freedom that we have because we're playing within the confines of like all of these events are, are lifetime events and it's, you know, the same team working on the production of the event and the Grand Prix, and it gives us the ability to be flexible now.

five years down the road, are we ending up in a structure that it doesn't have as much freedom because this thing's so established that it has to be the same events? I don't know the answer to that question, but um, we're still in test phase and that's what I think, you know, earlier I said we've had time to celebrate some of our wins.

I think that. So important, like early on we definitely received some, you know, there was like tension and criticism and like welcome all of it from, you know, athlete and fan alike. It's also so important to remember and like communicating even to our teams that are on the frontline, like. , these are humans putting on the event.

And we're humans that are really just trying to, and supported by a company who is also just trying to make a difference. Like the Grand Prix is not a revenue driver for our, for our company, but we're trying to align ourself with like positive change in cycling and there's gonna be growing pains with that.

Um, but I don't even view them as growing pains. Right. It's like they're just, it's a developmental. Of, of establishing something that hopefully changes the face of North American cycling. And you know what? There's a couple more series on the calendar this year, and I think that's really rad. I, I don't wanna attest that to the Grand Prix, but I think it's super cool to see that other groups are thinking in the same way, whether that's like happening on the road with the N C L, whether that survives or not.

But they're trying. And you have the group that's putting together a true mountain bike series around the country and like all of these different things are gonna start to create more fans in, in the us and that's super cool. It's, we're really, I feel like everyone in, in the cycling space right now, like what a cool time to be involved in, in.

[00:50:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah, a hundred percent. Like I think we all need to be thankful for Lifetime's involvement in this series and everybody else who's putting energy into North American cycling because agree, like. I think we're in a great place in terms of the equipment and the joy that gravel bikes can bring to athletes.

I think there's plenty of great events out there in the world, but it takes a lot of energy and financial commitment to make these events happen and you guys are putting a lot of money behind this series and investing in growing fandom in the United States, and that's amazing because I think we do need more fans of racing.

I'm quick to acknowledge like this podcast is definitely not about the front end of the pack for the most part. Well, I certainly enjoy talking to the professional athletes and learning how they get into the sport at the end of the day, like it's really the, the mass participant that gets me most excited cuz that's certainly where I sit in these events.

Um, so it's super cool that you guys continue to invest and I appreciate you taking the time and just walking me through last year and this year and hopefully we get to see each other in a few months down in Monte.

[00:51:20] Michelle Duffy: I know we will. Thank you,

[00:51:23] Craig Dalton: Thanks, Rashelle.

That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. Big, thanks to Michelle for joining us and bringing us up to speed on the lifetime grand Prix. We are now just around the corner from the first event in April. And I'm excited. As I'm sure some of you are to watch the action.

Down at the seawater classic and kick off another year. Big thanks to athletic greens and AIG one for supporting the podcast. Simply visit athletic greens.com/the gravel ride. And you can get that free one-year supply of vitamin D and B12. If you're interested in connecting with me. Please visit the ridership. That's www.theridership.com.

Or if you have a moment, ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated in the podcast game, it really helps with our discoverability. Until next time. Here's to finding some dirt under your wheels

This week we catch up with Amanda Nauman to discuss all things gravel. We touch on the Mammoth Tuff gravel race, Tuff Camps and how to continue to invite women into the sport. Amanda is an OG in the sport and friend of the pod which made for a super enjoyable conversation.

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Automated Transcription, please excuse the typos:

[00:00:00] Craig Dalton: Hello, and welcome to the gravel ride podcast, where we go deep on the sport of gravel cycling through in-depth interviews with product designers, event organizers and athletes. Who are pioneering the sport

I'm your host, Craig Dalton, a lifelong cyclist who discovered gravel cycling back in 2016 and made all the mistakes you don't need to make. I approach each episode as a beginner down, unlock all the knowledge you need to become a great gravel cyclist.

This week on the podcast, I'm super stoked to invite back. Amanda Naaman. Amanda is a big time friend of the pod. A podcast or herself as the co-host of the grody. Podcast. A very accomplished off-road athlete. With notable wins twice. At Unbound 200. Five times at the rock cobbler, .

We touch on rock cobbler this year, and some of the help she provided Sam aims with inviting and encouraging more female athletes to toe the line at this year's rock cobbler event.

She and Dave Sheik are also the co-founders of the mammoth tough event in mammoth, California, which occurs in September. Each year She's a member of the gravel cycling hall of fame advisory board. And according to her.

She's Walter, the dog's favorite. I'm not going to get into that domestic squabble, but we'll leave it at that. I'm excited to bring you a followup conversation with our friend, Amanda Naaman.

Hi, Craig. How are you? I am doing great. It's so good

[00:01:32] Amanda Nauman: to see you. Yeah, likewise. I'm excited. What, almost two and a half years

[00:01:36] Craig Dalton: later. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, the funny thing about our first recording I was recalling, we were doing an Instagram live at the same time. It was back when everybody was trying to figure out Instagram Live, so we were doing that.

And recording our conversation and I ultimately posted it to the podcast Feed .

[00:01:54] Amanda Nauman: Nice, nice. .

[00:01:56] Craig Dalton: What am I sort of, I would say to the failed endeavor into Instagram Live. It's not something I, I jam on. I'm much more comfortable in the podcast format where I can just talk to people and publish it later.

[00:02:08] Amanda Nauman: Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's hard and distracting. You get all the messages, you're like, what? What is that question? ? .

[00:02:14] Craig Dalton: I feel like we have so much ground to cover. We were chatting a little bit offline, but I, I thought what would be an interesting place to start knowing you participated in the Lifetime Grand Prix in in 2020 2, 20 22.

I just wanted to get your kind of overall perceptions as someone who's been around gravel racing for many years with that structure of your season. infused onto your life. H uh, how did it go and what were your thoughts on the, the lifetime Grand Prix in general?

[00:02:42] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I signed up probably on the last day that was possible to turn in the applications that, um, winter before, cuz I really contemplated whether or not it was something that I wanted to do for a while cuz I knew.

You know, I had done Unbound Excel. They had put Leadville on the list for the Grand Prix, and I was like, man, I've always wanted to do Leadville. I can kind of shape my calendar around the rest of the series as well. So ultimately I decided to sign up for it knowing, you know, it's kind of a shoe-in to Leadville, which is one thing I had always wanted to do.

And at the same time, I get to do some gravel and some other mountain bike races that I hadn't necessarily done before. So I was very optimistic and excited about the Grand Prix last. . It didn't necessarily go how I had planned or anticipated, but uh, yeah, I think what they have created in the series and the opportunities for athletes to go race that, I think it's a great, a great thing and great structure for a lot of people, but it wasn't necessarily, let's say, the right fit for me last year.

[00:03:44] Craig Dalton: Did that make sense? I mean, just for the listener's sake, like if you go back a few years before that as a gravel racer, how would you go about picking your Cal.

[00:03:53] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I mean, there's just some of the marquee events that. I would've picked, you know, in 2019, like for sure rock cobbler, mid-South Belgian waffle ride San Diego.

And then you'd go into Unbound, like for I think a California racer. That was sort of the way you would go. And then as summer happened, you know, you could pick and choose events. S B T I think was a was happening at that time. So it was a good summer. One gravel worlds. And then R P I. Was kind of sort of a season ender a little bit before you hit fall, and some people would race cycle lacrosse and whatnot.

So that was kind of the loose structure, I think, at least in 2019. And then 20 20, 20 21, everything kind of changed and there was a big reevaluation of what was important in terms of picking events, going to events or not , and then, Yeah, in 2022, everybody had the opportunity to apply for the Grand Prix, so that changed things.

But beforehand it was sort of what events were some of the big names going to, which ones had the most prestige, and, and if you were looking for sponsorship and stuff, you wanted to make sure you were at an event where there's enough competition there to show that let's say your results are are worth not.

[00:05:11] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. It's so interesting to think, like, think of it from the professional athlete's perspective, going back prior to the existence of the Grand Prix, just the flexibility to kind of go do whatever you wanted and whatever was exciting to you. And then to see athletes be, uh, forced because as you said, this amazing opportunity and I think the Grand Prix.

Fits so many people's needs right now. It does exclude certain events and it certainly does drive your calendar and just looking at it from the outside and maybe talking to a few athletes along the way, there's definitely an increased stress when you've, you've got this season long endeavor that you're pursuing and you're trying to get points at every stop.

[00:05:51] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I think that was where it caused me some stress last year because I got sick a couple times and the kind of sick where had it been a normal year, I just would've like pulled the plug and not gone to Sea Otter, for example, cuz that was the first one that I was sick for. and in hindsight, like I probably should have done that, but when you're in the moment you're like, no, I can't skip this cuz I only have one scratch race.

I had to skip Schwa again because of Mammoth. So I was already in a tough situation of like, I have to do all of these other ones no matter what. And that was the stress for me, I think was feeling like I had to do this thing. And especially because last year we paid for it. So I was also like financially invested in the decision that I had made.

Um, so yeah, for me, like I said, that that feeling. Wasn't perfect for me because. Bike racing isn't my only source of income. So it, I've always tried to go towards what I'm doing has to be fun because if not, then like, what's the point? It's not like the money puts food on the table for me. So I have that ability to say, Hey, I need to pick and choose things that are important to me.

And I think I've come back a little bit more to that, uh, in 2023, which I would say I was at in 2019 for sure. Um, and then a period. A few years floundering of what, what was important for me, .

[00:07:13] Craig Dalton: I know you guys at the Groo podcast did a really great episode with, I think it was Michelle Duffy talking, just talking about your, how you felt the season went at the Lifetime Grand Prix, and some suggestions and some questions.

What were some of the key takeaways if you look back on that season to say, What would you recommend they changed in that program and did they ultimately end up doing that for

[00:07:36] Amanda Nauman: 23? Yeah, I definitely, I asked some hard questions. I think he, I told chemo I was going to ask some hard questions and he was like, yeah, okay,

But I, you know, I pulled some of them from like actual trolls on the internet that would say like these most. Outlandish things and you're like, really? Like, did you even pay attention at all? But I wanted to give them the opportunity to respond to some of that stuff. Like, like did, did social media matter?

Or you know, how could you charge everyone money and all the ENT entry fees to go do this stuff? And kind of. Pinpoint some of the things that people had complained about, I would say. Um, and yeah, they changed a lot. I mean, at that time they had already made 2023, like no fees so people don't have to pay for the entry fees.

Um, and I think they're doing a much better job with social media. And that was. , one of my major points that I wanted to drive with them was like the stuff that I was seeing, they had relied so heavily on the flow bikes deal that they had made. Yeah. And doing that live coverage and really just making sure that flow was going to do the storytelling for them and it just never happened.

And that was my, my main frustration. in March, like before we went to Mid-South, Flo did one-on-one interviews with probably everyone, and they had all this great content that they put out before Sea Otter, and it was very in depth and it felt like everybody was telling their story and it was fun to follow that part of it.

And then after Unbound, it just stopped. And then they had the issues in Utah and. . So ultimately for somebody like me, where being in the top 10 wasn't necessarily realistic and being in that midfield to back of the pack zone, I kept saying like, what is the point for somebody like me and somebody let, and now let's say somebody in the 20 to 30 range, what's the point of being in it if you're not giving me the exposure?

that I want if I'm gonna be in the series and like, invest in this with you. And so I hope that that's the biggest thing that they change for this year is not relying on the flow stuff, probably expanding the storytelling to more than the top five at each event. Yeah. And, and being able to tell more of the story of everyone

[00:09:52] Craig Dalton: I.

Yeah, that would be interesting. I, I sort of, when I look through the list of writers, both male and female, and I think about like who, oh, who might I interview over the cross cost of the cross of the season, as you know, this isn't specifically a racing podcast. Yeah. But even if it was like, I can't get to all those athletes and it's almost like I just need to get a dart board, just throw a dart and pick someone that I don't know and interview because I think you're right.

There's interesting. Across the board and the more that they can kind of create those personal connections with the athletes, the more excited people are gonna be to follow.

[00:10:27] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, for sure. And I think, like chemo said, his major goal was to get non-endemic sponsorship into the sport and to get these athletes able to make a living off of it.

Like those were his two main goals in making this series. And I was like, okay, if you do that, like you need to work more on the marketing side of it and you need to tell. All of the stories because if we're just gonna talk about the top five and we're only gonna pay the top 10, then what's the point of going 30 deep

So . Yeah, like that's, I think, I think they get that now and they'll probably work more on that this year. But for sure, like I'm, I'm gonna have Anna Ya mochi on Groo next. And she just won rock cobbler and she's doing the Grand Prix and she's one of those like up and coming names where it's a really exciting story to follow and if they go the same route they did as last year, which is like, well, let's just focus on the top five hopefuls at each event, like she's never gonna get any coverage then

So yeah, if they can expand the way that they tell those stories, I think that would be,

[00:11:31] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Similarly, I just launched an episode with, uh, Ian Lopez, San Ramon, nice. 19 year old out of Northern California who's joined. He's the youngest person who's part of the series. Yeah, and it's just, I think it's just gonna be an interesting timestamp for.

He and I to like look at this interview where he is at, what he's thinking about with his career in cycling and yeah, follow him throughout the

[00:11:52] Amanda Nauman: year. Yeah, I love that

[00:11:53] Craig Dalton: stuff. I love it. Yeah. So did you decide to, to throw your hat in the ring for 2023 in the Grand

[00:12:00] Amanda Nauman: Prix? I did not, and mostly because I think of the experiences that I had in 2022 and not enjoying that stuck feeling.

Um, if they had. another deal or contract, or if they had presented a way that they were going to do marketing for all of the athletes, I might have reconsidered it, but because we were just going blindly on the hope of like, yeah, we're gonna make it better than the year before, I was like, well, I'd rather focus on more of the stuff I think that I wanna do personally.

Um, so yeah, I'm, I'm optimistic about the things that they do change for this year. I just think it would've been cool for them to maybe present that upfront.

[00:12:42] Craig Dalton: When you saw the call of a Lifetime series on YouTube, did that make you. They might be approaching it differently or what were your thoughts on that series?

[00:12:50] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I, I loved it. I think they, you know, they had told us initially that it was going to happen and before every race weekend they had said, Hey, if you're in the top three men or women, cuz they alternated. Genders throughout the the series. They told us all of that upfront and they said, if you are going to be in this top group, please make sure you make time for the interviews and all of that.

So that part of it we knew was for sure happening. And they made some of the vignette videos highlighting some of the athletes, but it just wasn't, it wasn't everyone, and it wasn't clear how they were picking the stories to tell essentially. Um, So, yeah, I think they did a really good job with the series though.

I, I joked that it's, like they said, make it like drive to survive with a little less drama, but, and a lot more cool bike racing. I think they nailed it pretty good.

[00:13:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I enjoyed it as well. Yeah. With with the idea that you can drop two races and now it's up to seven races, do you think that would meaningfully change, like what your experience would've been?

If that was the scenario last

[00:13:54] Amanda Nauman: year, yeah. It would've eliminated some of that stress of feeling stuck or knowing that. you had a little bit more flexibility. Uh, yeah, I think that, that that format will be healthier for people and I think that is for sure something that they realized last year with some of the injuries that happened already, like Pete racing through when maybe he shouldn't have with his hand still hurting and pacing.

So, um, yeah, just lessons learned, growing pains of how you set up a series from the get-go.

[00:14:23] Craig Dalton: Yeah, I think that'll be interesting. I also think it'll be interesting if someone is riding through the series healthy. And just decides not to do something, you know, unbound obviously being a huge effort that maybe some people might not be suited for.

At least that was the speculation last year. Yeah. Um, wondering like whether they'll just opt out of one and save one in their pocket for either a bad day or an illness or injury.

[00:14:48] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, everybody was afraid of that and I felt like there were a lot of rumblings of like, oh, so-and-so's gonna skip unbound cuz they can.

But I think peer pressure might have just went on that and most of them ended up just doing it. So maybe that'll keep happening. I think everybody kind of feels that is the marquee one and if you skip it, cuz it doesn't suit you and you one people will probably be like, well they didn't do unbound. So

Yeah,

[00:15:12] Craig Dalton: I could see. Yeah. Little, a little asterisks, by the way.

[00:15:14] Amanda Nauman: Exactly, exactly. Uh, well they chickened out on that one. . .

[00:15:19] Craig Dalton: Love it. So what, what are some of your plans for 2023? Obviously, like over the last couple years, you've. Uh, become an event organizer with Mammoth Tuff, which we'll get into. Also started dabbling in gravel camps, which sound amazing.

But why don't you just, let's talk through what 2023 is gonna look like for you for both erasing and other gravel endeavor perspective.

[00:15:42] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, I, yeah, quite, quite a few people have asked me this, and I think it's important to. also reminds people again that like, this isn't my job, per se. You know, like I have a regular desk job.

And so the way that I've approached anything has always been fun first in doing things that I want to do. Um, and last year my dad got sick a couple times and the business that I work for is my parents own it. And so, and it's just me and my brother that work for them. So I think we kind of had this like revelation of.

All of this other stuff that we're doing isn't quite as important and putting my dad's health first and focusing on that kind of was, and it's one of those things where it puts stuff into perspective. And I'm like, yeah, I've been doing this bike racing stuff for a decade. It is, it has been a very selfish endeavor.

And there are kind of other things. in my life that I would like to focus on. Um, so yeah, that, that's, that's the background to all of it, essentially. You know, it's not as easy of a decision as like, oh, well I'd rather race mid-south than Unbound. Like, it was, it was never really that simple for me. For 2023, it was kind of more like, mammoth is very important to me.

Doing camps is very important to me. Having more time at work is also important to me. And, um, Going back to the goal that I had in 2020 of finishing the calera 500 was also a goal and something I wanted to do last year, but like I said, the like shiny object of the Grand Prix got in the way and I was like, oh, I could do this thing.

So I just put that on hold for another year. Um, so I'd like to, to go back to that and try and finish it. Awesome.

[00:17:20] Craig Dalton: Can you describe that, that attempt at Calera and what that

[00:17:24] Amanda Nauman: is? Yeah. So it is the Calera 500. Um, the person who started it, his name is Alan Jacoby and he lives in Idaho now. So he doesn't live in Mammoth anymore, but he was a big tour divide fanatic.

Um, and he came back to Mammoth after doing tour divide and was like, I need to do something similar here in my backyard. So he came up with Calera, which is a hundred fifty, two hundred fifty North and South Loops. And then the Calera 500, which is the big Mamma Jamma one. And most all of this is like, An Excel spreadsheet of maps and queues and like very rudimentary stuff.

I think over the course of the next year or so, it will be a little bit more updated Ever since, um, one of the bike packing.com people did a feature story on it cuz he finished the 500 last fall. So with more attention, more eyeballs, I think it's going to gain popularity. But essentially they're just like really stupid hard bike packing routes in the area.

And I think the fastest time on the 500 is just under five days. . So it's not really something that can be done in a couple, and it's more walking than you think, and it's, uh, a lot harder just because of the elevation and the massive climbs in the Eastern Sierra. So, . Yeah, that's, that's the backstory.

There's a cool video that Niner put out in 2020 when I had first started it and kind of the goal of finishing it has is still, is still there looming over my head. I've had a couple of times that didn't go right,

[00:19:01] Craig Dalton: and is it the type of thing now that in the bike packing community, it's this, Entity and people are starting to sort of check it off their list and make attempts to go at it fast.

[00:19:12] Amanda Nauman: Barely. That's why I said like I think it'll gain popularity now that bike packing.com did a feature on it because I think they're only five or six guys that have ever finished the 500. I'm the only person to ever finish the one 50 South Loop. Um, yeah. So it's very, very grassroots. I mean, there are probably.

200 people in the Facebook group that know about it. Um, but yeah, if you are interested, there is a Facebook group. It is private, so you can just request access for it for anybody listening. But yeah, I would love to see it blow up. Like I think it's a, it's a really beautiful route. It's very challenging and hard, but if you're looking for a good reason to, to get away, it's a, it's a good one.

[00:19:53] Craig Dalton: How did you fall in love with that area in the Eastern Sierra?

[00:19:57] Amanda Nauman: M uh, growing up, I think, um, yeah, we probably talked about this a few years ago, but my parents always took us to Mammoth growing up and same thing with David's parents. And so we both sort of fell in love with it in a parallel way as we were younger.

And then once we met, um, we were like, oh man, this place is awesome. And my parents saved up enough money to get a house there, I think in 20. 15 or 16 I think. And because of that opportunity to be there and stay there, I ended up doing a lot of my training for, at the time, DK Now Unbound. And so I attribute a lot of the success I had winning in 15 and 16 to training up there because it was just the most like wide open.

Not California, like in the way that you would think about California gravel. It was just more Midwest than anything I'd ever found in the state. And because of that, it gave me the opportunity to put my head down and go hard the way that you would in the in the back roads of Kansas . So that was sort of how we fell in love with it.

Definitely skiing and snowboarding first, then mountain biking over the years, and then, hey, like let's go down this road that looks like it goes off to nowhere. . Yeah.

[00:21:14] Craig Dalton: Love it. And then which year was the, was 2020 was the first year that you guys attempted to put on Mammoth Tough, right? Right.

[00:21:22] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. We came up with the idea in like, well, I'd say late 2018 or so.

Um, I don't know if I've ever told this story publicly, but we actually went. Maybe half a year of doing it with Lifetime and thinking it was gonna be a lifetime event. And ultimately Dave and I decided we wanted to do it on our own. And so in 20, late 2019, we were like, okay, we're gonna do it ourselves cuz this is how we wanna do it and present it.

And, and then with the intention of it kicking off in 2020

[00:21:54] Craig Dalton: and what year did it actually kick off?

[00:21:56] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, last year ,

so,

[00:21:59] Craig Dalton: yeah. Yeah. I couldn't remember if it happened once or twice already. Yeah. No. So you got got one

[00:22:03] Amanda Nauman: under your belt. Yeah. Covid. And then 2021 was wildfires, unfortunately. And then, yeah, 2022 finally happened last year.

Which, one thing I do wanna mention, I just set up bike ride for. this in 2023. For me, I'm the tough, and they have a new insurance policy option for their event promoters where there's like a natural disaster thing. You can pay a fee into this insurance thing where they will cover refunds for natural disasters like wildfires, which is huge, especially so any promoter's listening in California, think about it.

It's only like 2.2% of your fees or whatever, and I think. The state that we're in and with, you know, some of the things that could happen in our areas like that is a, a pretty good opportunity for promoters. .

[00:22:53] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that sounds like it. Yeah. So the events in September, so end of the year each, each season.

[00:22:59] Amanda Nauman: Yes. Yeah, it is the weekend after Labor Day. So traditionally the Mammoth Grand Fondo has Labor Day weekend, and then we are that next Saturday after that, which is the closing weekend of the Mountain bike park. So we had a lot of people that were up there. You know, you have siblings or other family members that wanna just go ride park all day and.

Go do your little grapple adventure.

[00:23:22] Craig Dalton: Nice. A little I'd I'd do a little bit of both if given the opportunity. .

[00:23:26] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. A lot of people went and rode mountain bikes on Sunday. .

[00:23:29] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Um, and tell us a little bit about the event. Like if someone's considering it for their calendar, what, what is it like? Obviously Mammoth Mountain is at a high elevation as you referenced before, but how did you design the, the, the event?

What are the, the roads and trails like up.

[00:23:45] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, it's one thing. So when we first started it, we had a short course and a long course. We were gonna do a 40 mile and a hundred mile option ish. And then in 2020, One, we had a bunch of people come out and we tested sort of a medium route. Even though the event was canceled, we were like, Hey, go ride part of this and tell us what you think.

And that was the genesis of the medium distance. So in 2022 last year, we had three routes, even though that was never the initial plan, but some people felt like, oh, the short one's too easy and the long one's too hard. So we need an in between. And that was where we came up with the idea of doing three different ones and they.

Very different. Like they're in completely different sections of the, of the valley of the mountain. They go in different areas. So I wanted to be able to sell a different experience for each distance and sort of have it as a stepping stone leading up to challenging yourself over a hundred if you want to, and letting those first two on the way kind.

get you ready for what to expect for the, for the long one, cuz the long one you go pretty much all the way to Bishop and back essentially is the route.

[00:24:57] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And how much climbing is in the long one?

[00:25:00] Amanda Nauman: 7,500 or so? It's not too bad, it's not like raw cobbler where it's a hundred feet per every mile. It's a little bit less than that.

So I think it's, um, it's not as like punchy and brutal in that regard. .

[00:25:15] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Are you doing sort of long duration climbs on the course or is it

[00:25:19] Amanda Nauman: rolling? Yeah, it's mostly you just like kind of get in the zone and climb for. Good chunks of time. It's a lot less, like five minutes as hard as you can go. You're kind of like, yeah.

All right. Kick it into gear for the next hour, essentially. . .

[00:25:37] Craig Dalton: Nice. And then the, the, um, the, the short and the medium courses, what are those

[00:25:42] Amanda Nauman: distances? Yeah, the short is about 40 miles, very palatable. You go by, uh, the the Hot Creek area, which is cool, so you can stop and go down there. And then the medium distance is about 75 miles or so, and it has some pretty technical descending in it, I would say.

And for folks who aren't used to riding or navigating sand as much, that feeling. Riding in Palmist stone is very different from anything else in the state, essentially, cuz you're just riding in old lava fields. So, . It's very unique. So I had a lot of people tell me last year like, oh man, you weren't kidding when you said it was gonna be hard.

I'm like, yeah. It wasn't, it wasn't like some like silly marketing ploy to be like, this is gonna be the hardest event ever. I was like, I was serious. Like it's not easy. Um, and so it was, it was funny to have a bunch of people come up to me afterwards and being like, yeah, you were right. Like I know I wouldn't lie to you

[00:26:40] Craig Dalton: What does that end up translating wise for equipment? Like what do you sort of recommend people ride up?

[00:26:46] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, 40 minimum tire width. And I tell people like, go with as wide as your frame would allow, essentially. So like I could fit a 48 Oracle ridge on my R L t if I, if I needed to. And I think that would be the most fun realistically for the day if you were just looking to have a good time.

And a lot of it is because some of the softer stuff, if you're not used to the like fish taily feeling of your bike, With when it has two narrow tires and sand, then go wider because you, it'll be more stable and a lot less like wiggly, I guess. So it kind of depends on. Number one, people's handling abilities and number two, what your frame can allow.

And then, yeah, just go big. It's safer. ,

[00:27:32] Craig Dalton: did people listen to you or were people showing up on 30 twos? Yeah,

[00:27:35] Amanda Nauman: no, people listened. I think that was, that was the thing we tried to scare everyone with. I was like, if you go under 40, you're not gonna have a good time. Just trust me. .

[00:27:45] Craig Dalton: I love it. I love it. So overall, how was the first year of the event?

Did it meet your expectations?

[00:27:51] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, yeah, it was, it was great. I think the one thing, I don't like gloating, but I will toot my horn on the safety aspect because the one thing about that area is there's, you have very little cell service. You're kind of really, truly in the middle of nowhere and the only people who ever go out there are just going in their side by sides or motorcycles to, to get away.

So we made it an an emphasis on safety and having a hundred percent rider accountability, which you'd be surprised looking into events that you're trying to sign up for that. That's not really the case for most events that you go to. Promoters kind of put it on you to, oh, well, if you're out there, you're kind of on your own and if you don't get back like, and you tried calling, sag, whatever, like you'll figure out how to get back essentially.

And there's not really making sure that everybody is back. Okay. Whereas in our case, if you get out there and you get lost or. Can't find your way back. Like there's a, like you go into the risk of like making it out alive essentially, cuz temperatures can drop overnight and there's kind of more risk factors involved.

So we wanted to make sure that we knew where everyone was. And TBG timing had a really good setup where you could text them if you dnf, if you got back to your hotel room on your own. And then if you got picked up by people, obviously we knew where you were. We got that idea from, there's a, there's an ultra, a Bishop Ultra that happens in May every year, and they have a policy where if you don't report your DNF or like that you left the course and just went home, you're never allowed back.

like they have a very like hard. Stance on that, and they just don't want people back that disregard that rule. So we were like, well, we don't wanna be that strict, but we want to make sure people know that we care about where they are out there. Um, so yeah, safety, I think was, was the biggest thing that we wanted to, to shoot for.

And hopefully everybody's told me like, you're never gonna be able to scale that if you have 2000 people. And I don't know, I'd like to take on that challenge just because I think making sure everyone's safe is, is always gonna be our biggest priority. Yeah, for sure.

[00:30:03] Craig Dalton: That sounds great. I remember in the first year you guys were advertising that it was kind of co-located alongside Octoberfest in Mammoth.

Did that turn out to be the case?

[00:30:13] Amanda Nauman: It didn't. They, uh, they ended up canceling their festival. They like, I. Covid stuff and the people who ran octoberfest have other businesses in town that they were kind of more worried about than, than putting on the festival last year. So they canceled. And so that is why we did our own beer run on Friday.

So we ended up doing what used to be theirs. They handed it off to us and they're like, yeah, if you wanna do this, Stupid beer run. Go for it. Which we did cuz I had done it the year before and I was like, this is awesome. Um, so we took that over and, and we obviously last year didn't have time to like throw together a full on music festival like they had had in the past, but cuz they canceled sort of last minute.

So this year the village is kind of helping us. Get talent involved for kind of having it be a little bit more of a festival and live music and entertainment for Saturday. Um, so yeah, no more October Fest, but, but we're trying to make the party .

[00:31:10] Craig Dalton: Love it. Um, now I know you guys have been through the ringer as far as event organizers are concerned between the pandemic and the fires.

But let's put those two years of waiting aside. Like how would you, what. , how do you think about the amount of effort required to put on Mammoth? Tough. And was it a satisfying enterprise for you guys to put together, or was being an event organizer just like this crazy amount of work you never anticipated?

[00:31:40] Amanda Nauman: It was a crazy amount of work. I never anticipated a hundred percent. Um, I think that Sunday after the award ceremony when we were all cleaning up, I was like, somebody asked David, like, oh, are you guys gonna do this next year? David was like, uh, I don't know. And I was like, yes, . So we had very different, I think, immediate reactions to it.

David ended up doing a lot more of like the manual labor, I would say, and I did a lot more of like the computer work and logistics and all of that. So we came at it from different perspectives, but in, even though it was more work than we had anticipated, I would say it was a lot more rewarding than we had anticipated as well.

because I have always told the story that Mammoth was like the special place to us. Like so much so that we thought about just keeping it a secret and not really like displaying it as this gravel destination, I guess you could say. But doing that and having the opportunity to share this place that has meant so much to us, I think was.

Ultimately the biggest gift and the thing that we were the most proud of because everybody was like, yeah, I come up and ski here in snowboard and mountain bike. I never thought to bring my gravel bike and just go explore. And people have spent so much time on the 3 95 and just never really thought about those roads that are out there.

So that part to me was very rewarding. I think Visit Mammoth now knows that it is a really great destination to, for people to go bring a gravel bike and explore. and that part I think will be the thing will, will always be the most proud of is kind of sharing that adventurous spirit up there.

[00:33:17] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Did you think about the event from like, um, you want this to be a hyper-competitive event or was it something else in your mind when you conceived of it?

[00:33:27] Amanda Nauman: Um, that's it. That's kind of hard for me because I am so competitive. So we wanted this fine balance of making everybody feel like they were competing for something, um, because I don't want to exclude all of those people. Like I always appreciated that Sam aims with the rock cobbler. He was always like, this isn't a race, but two people are going to win.

Like he's always said that. and he's always acknowledged me or whoever else was winning those years, but he didn't like do categories for all, you know, the age groups and whatnot. But re I really wanted to do that for our event because, As a swimmer, as a triathlete, having those goals for everyday regular people was something that was important to me, cuz it was important to me a decade ago before I got into anything super competitive.

So I think it's important to reward. . Um, yeah. The people that are doing the thing and going how they can as fast as they can for their certain categories, I think is still important to me. Um, but in that sense, I also just wanna make sure people can come and have a good time and not feel like the pressure to, to perform.

[00:34:37] Craig Dalton: Yeah. Well, it sounds like you've covered both bases, right? You've, you've, you, you've allowed the racer types to go at it, go hard and get some recognition at the end, but you've also built that safety net to make sure that there's no man or woman left

[00:34:50] Amanda Nauman: behind. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. , .

[00:34:54] Craig Dalton: The other thing I wanted to touch on that seems like it's been growing in your portfolio of gravel offerings has been the camp.

what can you just tell me about like what a tough camp is like and what are tough? What's the vision for 2023? Yeah.

[00:35:10] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. I. I will go as, I'm gonna go a decade back real quick. So when I was, uh, I finished my master's degree in 2012 and I had planned a trip to Europe with my best friend from high school, and we signed up for one of those like v i p experiences with the Tour de France.

And so we did like this like. 10 days in the NY sort of thing and blew all of the money that I had made in college to go do this trip. Cuz I was like, whatever, I'm starting work after this. Like I can make money later. And it was like a very, I don't know, transformative, life-changing trip that we did. And I think, you know, the, the people I had spent a week with, I still talked to you today and uh, I think that experience was important for me cuz it made me realize how much.

Travel and sharing cool experiences on two wheels was to me. And then, you know, shortly after that, I met David, I was working at, felt all of these things kind of stumbled into bike racing and bike racing became the catalyst to going cool places and riding bikes with friends. and then now I am like moving that pendulum sort of back into to what was really important to me 10 years ago, which was like just going and doing these trips and riding with people for fun and like sharing kind of all of the experiences that I've had in the past decade.

So that was the impetus of it. And like I knew we were gonna have this conversation and I was thinking a lot. Why I wanted to do camps and why they were so important to me and Dave working as a coach for Carmichael Training Systems, like they have always done a really amazing job with camps, and I've had the pleasure of helping coach some of those and being a part of them.

And every time I'm like, this is where it's at, like the like intimate, like group setting. You know, you have good food, you hang out, you just talk about important life stuff. That I think is always something I enjoyed. So that was the impetus of of all of it. We started some of the camps in 2020, a couple more in 2021, a couple more last year, and to where we are at today, making all of them sort of under the Tough Ventures umbrella and expanding it to a couple camps in Kansas.

[00:37:31] Craig Dalton: Super cool. I do, I do think for many cyclists, the idea of a camp evokes this. Training camp mentality, which is like, oh, I'm going because I'm trying to do well at Unbound, or what have you. Yeah, and I think it's an inter really interesting opportunity to kind of shift that mindset to more what you're saying, which is like, I'm gonna go somewhere cool.

I'm gonna ride my ass off for four days. I'm not doing that for necessarily for anything beyond the sheer pleasure of writing. For four days and getting access to people who are knowledgeable about the sport and learning a thing or two.

[00:38:07] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, exactly. I think it's a middle ground of a training camp and like a vacation trip, , because I want, I want to bring value and the way I've been explaining it to everyone is like, Dave and I made a lot of mistakes in the past 10 years.

We did everything the wrong way and I would like to make sure that people coming into this discipline now, Kind of learn from our mistakes, start doing everything the right way, because you will have a much more pleasant experience doing these long adventures if you have, you know, some, some semblance of like how you should take care of yourself essentially.

[00:38:42] Craig Dalton: Yeah, definitely. There's just a lot of low hanging fruit in terms of if someone just tells you something simple like make sure you eat every hour in these long events. Yeah, yeah. You're gonna be a lot better off than

[00:38:52] Amanda Nauman: or some people that are like, oh man, I only had a bottle in four hours. I'm like, well, that's why you feel like crap.

[00:38:58] Craig Dalton: Yeah, . Exactly. I like you had the benefit of doing triathlons. You sort of learned those lessons very quickly. Yeah. If you didn't fuel in one activity for the next one, you were pretty much

[00:39:09] Amanda Nauman: hosed, right? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And I, again, one of the other things that happened was we had so many people that came to Mammoth and did the short route last year, and it was like their first gravel event.

And that was very intimidating for me cuz I was like, this is going to be like their introduction to this experience and this discipline. and I wanted it to be good, and I wanted them to have resources at their disposal to make it comfortable. So much so. I feel like I over-delivered and overshared on some of that information.

And I had a couple people emailing me and say like, you know, you don't really have to like handhold so much for all these people. I was like, yeah, I do, because some of them literally have no idea. So like if it's annoying to you that I'm telling you to drink a bottle an hour, like just ignore me. Then , this isn't for you.

[00:40:03] Craig Dalton: So most of the camps, well all the camps last year were up at Mammoth. And obviously like just being able to showcase all the great trails and roads up at Mammoth was an obvious thing for you to do both in terms of getting people pumped about that region that you love so much and getting people excited, maybe specifically for your event, but now you're expanding to Kansas.

Let's talk about like, what's the orientation of those camps in Kansas? Is it just yet another great place to ride that people should go? Or is it trying to get you ready for any particular event?

[00:40:35] Amanda Nauman: Uh, yeah. Yeah, they, so the first one is with the Flint Hills gravel ride, and the second one in July is with the Rockridge gravel.

And so both of those events are run by Bobby Thompson and Dave and I met Bobby. . Like way back in 2017, the Dirty Kansas production or promotion company was the company that was, that DK was under at the time. They had dabbled in this idea of travel trips as well. So they did this like test run to do the Dirty River in the uk and Bobby was on that trip.

So we met Bobby in that like travel trip, bike thing, atmosphere, and we became really fast good friends, and they had come out to Mammoth a couple times, um, in 2020 or 2021 and 2022. So we have always had this relationship with Bobby and he wanted to build his. Camps, or sorry, his events in Kansas that were more of like grassroots, like OG gravel style there.

And that's very much the stuff that Dave and I fell in love with and we were like, well, , let's see if we can do tough camps in Kansas. Because Bobby came to me and said like, Hey, I'm not getting enough women signing up for these. Like, what am I doing wrong? And I was like, well, I don't think you're doing anything wrong necessarily.

I think just like what you're offering is still intimidating for women. So let's try and maybe bring this camp idea to to soften. That experience or make it feel more palatable for women and for anyone as a whole. Um, so that was where that idea came from to build those camps there. And o obviously I have a really good reputation and love for that area in terms of what I've been able to do, um, with Unbound and all of.

The experience that Dave and I have with that event. So I think sharing what we know and doing that and again in a place that um, means a lot to us was kind of why we wanted to do. .

[00:42:35] Craig Dalton: So will those camps actually culminate in participation in the those events?

[00:42:40] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, so that's how we structured. It was like a three day leading up to that event so that that final day you get to sort of execute everything that you've learned in the three days prior, which is, which is a fun way to do it.

[00:42:54] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that's super interesting. I want to touch on something that you mentioned offline, but just kind of reference there about just. Finding a way to bring more female athletes into the sport. And you mentioned some work you were doing with Sam at Rock Cobbler this year. , can you describe what you were doing?

[00:43:11] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, yeah, so Chris Hall was on the marketing team helping Sam out this year, and he sent me a message a couple months ago and was like, Hey, Sam's at like 16% female participation. And he was like, how do we make that bigger? I'm not happy with it. And I was like, yeah, I'm not happy with that either. That's not a great number.

So I was like, well, let's, you know, open 50 spots on the backend for any women. Sign up after it sells out. And I was like, I will volunteer my time if people wanna ask me any questions about it, if they're nervous, cuz maybe women don't necessarily want to email Sam or an unknown face behind an event and say like, Hey, is this for me?

Maybe they'll feel more comfortable if it's for me. So they put a whole special section of the website called Ask Pan. People could email me their questions if they were concerned about stuff, and we got quite a few people that emailed and women that were just uncomfortable. Or didn't feel great about doing the short distance cuz it, it didn't feel like enough or they felt like a failure cuz they wanted to do the peb.

And it was very eye-opening in the sense that I was like, yeah, maybe just women need that safe space to be able to say, Hey, I am uncomfortable. And they need somebody to tell them like, it's gonna be okay and you are fully capable of doing this. or maybe you're not fully capable and it's okay to do this other part of it instead, you know, it was, um, yeah, again, just a very eye-opening thing because women traditionally can just have a lot more self-doubt, I think, than men, and that idea that they perhaps might not feel like it's a space or.

a discipline that's for them necessarily. So the more that I can try and crack that code on making women feel like they're more capable, I think that that's something that I'd like to, to focus on in the

[00:45:09] Craig Dalton: future. . Yeah, I think that's super cool takeaway for a lot of event organizers listening. It's just like, find a female athlete that can be supportive and be open to questions like that, just to make people feel welcome.

Yeah.

[00:45:22] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. It seems so simple, but really like, and again, a lot of that has, has stemmed from talking to other women or like even my best friend, the one that I was talking to, that we went to Europe together. I always kind of use her as my litmus test. Like a better representation of all women in terms of how they're looking at the stuff.

And she'll always second guess herself or say like, I don't think I can do that. And most of the times it's, cuz I feel like she's comparing it maybe to things that I do or things that she sees other women do, these like epic things and she's like, yeah, that's not for me. I'm like, no, it is like, you have no idea that you are fully capable of doing this if you want to.

And a lot of times they, they won't even take the step to do it because. They're unsure. So the more that I can help, like, no, you can do it. If you want to do it, you should do X, Y, Z to, to get there. Um, yeah, those conversations I think are so important and for men listening to this too. You all have also a responsibility I think in to like make your female friends feel comfortable.

Because a lot of times, like women just are too afraid to ask or they think that their questions are stupid. So the more that men. dads especially, um, brothers, the more that you all can make your female counterparts more comfortable, I think the better off we'll all be. Cuz it's not necessarily my job, only either , I think it's everyone's job to, to make it, to make it feel like something that they can do.

[00:46:55] Craig Dalton: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for doing that by the way. Yeah. Yeah. It's important you've got a busy calendar of your own activities. , are there any events for the rest of the year that you're excited about doing?

[00:47:09] Amanda Nauman: Oh, I don't know. I sort of don't, I don't really, I don't think I have anything. I was like super excited about rock cobbler and I even just did the short one this year.

Um, yeah, I'm, I think I'm putting all of my eggs in the, the camp and mammoth basket and really focusing on calera because it is something that, Of steep learning curve, like obviously I haven't, I haven't finished it twice. So there's a reason why, and it's just a lot of like learning things the hard way I think when it comes to backpacking.

So the idea of like even more self-sufficiency than I've been used to in the past is the, like that learning thing that I'm most excited about for this.

[00:47:53] Craig Dalton: Is, was that the, if you could point to like the reasons why you haven't been able to complete the route, or is it a self-sufficiency issue?

[00:48:02] Amanda Nauman: I would say it's equipment, honestly.

Like the, well, the first year I couldn't even start it cuz of wildfires. So that was, that was a whole nother thing. Yeah. And then the second time I got stuck in like a lightning storm and on top of that my knee was bugging me cause I had picked. , I had made wrong equipment decisions, essentially. Yeah. And it's something where, you know, if I'm used to a certain position riding style and I have so many hours in that same position, I was jumping into something different, more weight on my bike, more everything.

More walking. Yeah. . So it was just a, yeah, a learning curve of equipment and how I need to manage like, I don't know, just a very different style. Goal chasing essentially.

[00:48:49] Craig Dalton: Yeah. It's so, it's so different. Yeah. I mean, just, just, just having a loaded bike in and of itself is like a game changer in what, how your knees feel in particular.

[00:48:59] Amanda Nauman: Exactly, exactly. Because I, so I had like a frame bag on my frame, and so I thought, well, I'll make my Q factor wider so that my knees aren't rubbing my frame and that. Q factor thing, just royally effed up my left knee . That was the thing that ultimately did me in, was changing one thing that I thought was gonna help me.

But really, like your bodies are so fine tuned to a certain feel that if you throw that off and you're trying to do it for five days in a row, like, forget it. . Yeah.

[00:49:27] Craig Dalton: Yeah. And cycling because of the repetitive nature of it, it's. , you get something wrong it you're doing over and over and over and over and over again.

Eventually it's gonna add

[00:49:36] Amanda Nauman: up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Just again, stupid things where if I was telling somebody, I would say like, yeah, nothing new on race day. That's like one of my main mantras, and I of course, like I did something different for this major goal that I shouldn't have. ,

[00:49:53] Craig Dalton: something that was even harder than race day.

Arguably. Yes, exactly. , . I love it. Well, I'm super excited for all the camps. I think for anybody listening like that is a good way to spend four days. Yeah, and I love that Mammoth tough went off well, and I'm excited for you guys doing it again. And obviously I'll put um, a link in the show notes to registration, which just opened up so.

People listening, make sure to go out and grab your spot.

[00:50:18] Amanda Nauman: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks Craig. Yeah. I think, and for anybody that's listening to this that does, hasn't listened to a bunch of the, the Gravel Ride episodes, go back and listen to the one that Craig did with Trek Travel in Jerron and. just be inspired to go, to go do a fun bike trip cuz I think yeah.

I'm, I'm really gonna push that more for a lot of people who are, you know, race or event anxious and just need, like, need a good reason to go explore and do it in a different way. Yeah.

[00:50:50] Craig Dalton: Gravel travel, it's where it's

[00:50:52] Amanda Nauman: at. Yeah. Yes, exactly. .

[00:50:55] Craig Dalton: So good to spend some time with you again and hopefully we catch up later this year.

[00:50:59] Amanda Nauman: Yeah, thanks Craig. I appreciate it.

[00:51:02] Craig Dalton: That's going to do it for this week's edition of the gravel ride podcast. I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Amanda as much as I did. She's such a great member of the gravel cycling community. I always learn a lot listening to the grody IO podcast and appreciate her perspective.

She's been doing all these gravel events for a while. So just offers a great historical view as to what it was like, what it's like now and what are some of the ways that we can chart the course forward. I encourage you to check out all the tough ventures work. It's tough.ventures. As she mentioned during the show, they're doing the mammoth tough event, but they're also doing a series of camps this year, which I think will be super fun and informative to anybody who can attend.

If you're interested in connecting with me, I encourage you to join the ridership. That's www.theridership.com. If you're able to support the show, please visit buy me a coffee.com/the gravel ride or ratings and reviews are hugely appreciated. Until next time here's to finding some dirt onto your wheels.