In this episode of The Evolving Leader, hosts Jean Gomes and Scott Allender are joined by Dr. Sunita Sah, a physician turned organisational psychologist and Professor of Management at Cornell University. Together they explore the power of saying “no” in a world that rewards compliance. Drawing from her acclaimed book “Defy: The Power of No in a World that Demands Yes”, Dr Sah reveals how our upbringing, institutions, and social pressures teach us to equate being “good” with being obedient, and how that conditioning can silence our values. She introduces the concept of “insinuation anxiety,” the discomfort of implying distrust when we disagree, and shares how to build the courage and skill to act in alignment with what truly matters.

For senior leaders, this conversation reframes defiance as an essential leadership practice, not rebellion, but integrity in action. Sah explains the five stages of defiance, the cost of compliance, and why organisations that cultivate psychological safety and intellectual humility outperform those that suppress challenge. It’s a thought-provoking guide to leading with authenticity, courage, and moral clarity in complex systems where it’s often easier to say yes.

Further materials from Sunita Sah:

“Defy: The Power of No in a Worlds That Demands Yes”, (Blink Publishing, February 2025)

“The science of defiance: A psychology researcher explains why people comply – and how to resist”, (The Conversations, September 2025)

“America thinks it’s a country of free thinkers. But we’re actually compliant”, (Los Angeles Times, February 2025)

 “How to Say No and Mean It”, (Psychology Today, January 2025)

 Other reading from Jean Gomes and Scott Allender:

Leading In A Non-Linear World (J Gomes, 2023)

The Enneagram of Emotional Intelligence (S Allender, 2023)

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The Evolving Leader is researched, written and presented by Jean Gomes and Scott Allender with production by Phil Kerby. It is an Outside production.

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