The Way Out Is In

Welcome to episode 20 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

At such a demanding and delicate time, the presenters, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino, reflect on Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh passing on January 22nd, 2022. They offer a profound insight into the memorial week, the funeral, impact on the Plum Village community, and the overwhelming global response.

This instalment of the podcast is an intimate account of the period between the announcement of Thich Nhat Hanh’s passing and the recording of this episode: “a retreat of silence, and a retreat of remembering Thay and continuing Thay.”

Brother Phap Huu, Thay’s former attendant and current Abbot of the Upper Hamlet, shares his personal relationship with Thich Nhat Hanh and how these events have impacted him. He also shares a detailed behind-the-scenes look at the traditional ceremonies and memorial services, preparations, and processions, as well as personal stories from the Plum Village communities over the eight days following the beloved teacher’s passing. 

The conversation delves into: the significance of the ceremonies’ texts; the deep practises underpinning the formalities; Thay becoming a spiritual ancestor; deep levels of aspiration; the symbolic homes for Thay’s ashes; acceptance, togetherness, and impermanence; the relevance of Thay’s teachings for years to come; and what it means to be the continuation of Thay. 

The episode ends with a short meditation on continuation and gratitude, guided by Brother Phap Huu.

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

Plum Village
https://plumvillage.org/ 

Thich Nhat Hanh memorial ceremonies
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaX_vxbhs8fi9nUbUL75NorK6yYOSrWzd 

Memorial Week for Thich Nhat Hanh
https://plumvillage.org/memorial/

Memorial Practice Resources
https://plumvillage.org/memorial-practice-resources/ 

‘Photos from Thay’s Memorial Ceremonies’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/photos-from-thays-memorial-ceremonies/

‘Daily Contemplations on Impermanence and Interbeing’
https://plumvillage.org/daily-contemplations-on-impermanence-interbeing/

Chants: ‘Namo Avalokiteshvaraya’
https://plumvillage.org/library/chants/namo-avalokiteshvaraya/ 

‘Namo’valokiteshvaraya Chant’ (2022)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZkjX_c4hm4 

Chants: ‘Heart Sutra’
https://plumvillage.org/library/chants/heart-sutra/ 

‘New Heart Sutra Translation by Thich Nhat Hanh’
https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/thich-nhat-hanh-new-heart-sutra-translation/ 

Monastic robes
https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/monastic-fashion/ 

Sister Chân Không
https://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khong/

Plum Village Lineage
https://plumvillage.org/series/plum-village-lineage/  

‘Memories from the Root Temple: My Master’s Robe’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/memories-from-the-root-temple-my-masters-robe/ 

‘The 16 Exercises of Mindful Breathing’
https://plumvillage.org/library/songs/the-16-exercises-of-mindful-breathing/#

Quotes

“Thay’s life is his message.”

“Many of us grew up in a Buddhist family, but didn’t know the beautiful culture and the depths of Buddhism, and have been waiting for a master to open our eyes to the spiritual dimension. And we were so lucky that we found Thay. So the tears and the prostration are just gratefulness, and honoring, and respect.” 

“The tears are bitter but also very sweet, because if we don’t go deep into our feelings – this podcast is The Way Out Is In – if we’re not going into our feelings of grief, then all we’re doing is blocking them. But the point is not to be stuck in them. Our tears are like a flow. And we need to let it flow.”

“Impermanence. We are of the nature to grow old. We are of the nature to get sick. We are of the nature to die. Everything that we hold deep and dear to us, one day we will let go of.” 

“I’ve always said that Thay’s the most famous person no one’s ever heard of, because he’s had such an influence yet his name doesn’t… […] Suddenly I felt Thay in the public, in his fullness. And I thought that was his extraordinary power: that he wasn’t well known, but everyone knew him.”

“When Thay did a retreat in 2003 for police officers, we used no Buddhist terms. We did a ceremony, but no incense offering. It’s possible, and we have to be flexible. We have to hope for that spirit.”

“I want to be in the midst of this storm and still have my two feet on the ground. Thay has given us the tools, and I need to cultivate that deeper and deeper, because then brotherhood, sisterhood, community will have stability. And Thay said, ‘If in Thay’s community there is still brotherhood and sisterhood, then anything is possible.’”

“The chanting is another way of directing our grief, another way of honoring our masters, our teachers, our spiritual ancestors.”

“What I see so clearly is Thay’s continuation in his actions and his teachings, and that they are as robust as if he were here; there’s no dilution of them. He’s taught us so beautifully and in such a practical and simple way that people can immediately relate to and practice; as he said, you don’t need to be in the practice for 10 years, you can start right now.”

Welcome to episode 19 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh passed away on January 22nd, 2022. As we grieve our dear teacher, we also want to celebrate his enduring legacy with the podcast’s first special edition.

Therefore, we are sharing an edited recording of Thich Nhat Hanh interviewed by Krista Tippett during a USA tour in 2003, at a lakeside Christian conference center in rural Wisconsin.  

The interview is reproduced with kind permission of Krista Tippett and her podcast and radio show On Being.

Peabody Award-winning broadcaster Krista Tippett is a National Humanities Medalist and a New York Times bestselling author. She attended Brown University, then worked as a journalist and diplomat in Cold War Berlin. Subsequently, she lived in Spain and England before receiving a Master of Divinity at Yale University in the mid 1990s.

The episode starts with an introduction by Brother Phap Huu – Thich Nhat Hanh’s former attendant, and the current Abbott of Upper Hamlet, Plum Village. The brother recites one of Thay’s best known poems and pays tribute to his beloved teacher.

In the interview, Thich Nhat Hanh offers gentle wisdom for living in a world of anger and violence, through concepts such as engaged Buddhism, ‘being peace’, and mindfulness.

He shares the story behind his classic book The Miracle of Mindfulness, and discusses the Vietnamese connotations of the word ‘mindfulness’; transforming suffering; and building a community of practice and teaching mindfulness to different groups – from members of the US Congress to Hollywood filmmakers and law enforcement officers.

One segment of the interview focuses on dealing with war and ‘enemies’; the repetitive patterns of war, with a focus on the Vietnam and Iraq wars and the ‘war on terror’ taking place at the time. He further delves into: the root causes of war, anger, forgiveness, and peacekeeping; collective awakening; and viewing the world through the eyes of compassion. 

What is compassion in the wake of a terrorist attack? Does the practice of mindfulness cause forgiveness to become instinctual? And what were Thay’s pressing questions in 2003?

Thay also recites poems in both English and Vietnamese and comments on their meanings and shifting contexts, such as the relevance of his 40-year-old poem ‘Illusion Transformed’ to the realities of 2003. 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

‘Recommendation’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/recommendation/

‘Alone Again’
https://plumvillage.org/library/songs/alone-again-promise-me/

The Miracle of Mindfulness 
https://plumvillage.org/books/the-miracle-of-mindfulness/

‘Illusion Transformed’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fq5HHRJ9pIk 

Drops of Emptiness
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/424577.Drops_of_Emptiness 

‘For Warmth’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/for-warmth-thays-poem-in-my-two-hands-betsy-roses-song/ 

Fragrant Palm Leaves 
https://plumvillage.org/books/fragrant-palm-leaves/

Thich Nhat Hanh address to the US Congress, September 10, 2003
https://plumvillage.org/it/about/thich-nhat-hanh/letters/thich-nhat-hanh-address-to-us-congress-september-10-2003/0/

‘Mindfulness, Suffering and Engaged Buddhism’ (interviews with Thich Nhat Hanh, Cheri Maples, and Larry Ward)
https://plumvillage.org/about/thich-nhat-hanh/interviews-with-thich-nhat-hanh/thich-nhat-hanh-on-mindfulness-suffering-and-engaged-buddhism/ 

The United Nations
https://www.un.org/en/ 

The Vietnam War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War 

Bến Tre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E1%BA%BFn_Tre 

Quotes

“Mindfulness is a part of living. When you are mindful, you are fully alive, you are fully present, you can get in touch with the wonders of life, which can nourish and heal you. And you are stronger, you are more solid, more able to handle the suffering inside and around you. When you are mindful, you can recognize, embrace, and handle the pain, the sorrow in and around you, to bring relief. And if you continue with concentration and insight, you’ll be able to transform the suffering inside and help transform the suffering around you.” 

“Suffering and happiness are both organic, like flowers and garbage. The flower is on her way to become a piece of garbage, and the garbage can be on its way to become a flower. That is why you are not afraid of the garbage, and you know how to handle it so that flowers can be created. And that is all. There’s no attempt to run away from suffering. And you handle suffering in such a way in order to create wellbeing and happiness.”

“Awakening, understanding, compassion, and reconciliation can take place after a few days of practice. People need an opportunity so that the seed of compassion, understanding in them can be watered. And that is why we are not discouraged. If more people join in the work of offering that opportunity, there will be a collective awakening and we shall have enough collective understanding and compassion to help us out of this difficult situation.”

“When you have compassion in your heart, you suffer much less. And you are in the situation to be and to do something to help others to suffer less.”

“Understanding brings compassion; understanding is compassion itself. When you understand the difficulties, the suffering, the despair of another, you don’t hate him or her anymore. And you are motivated by the desire to do something in order to help them transform the suffering inside.”

“You have to remain human in order to be able to understand and to be compassionate. And you have the right to be angry, but you don’t have the right not to practice in order to transform your anger. You have the right to make mistakes, but you don’t have the right to continue making a mistake: you have to learn from your mistakes.”

“Zen is not merely a system of thought. Zen infuses our whole being with the most pressing question we have.”

“I hold my face in my two hands.
No, I am not crying.
I hold my face in my two hands
to keep the loneliness warm—
two hands protecting,
two hands nourishing,
two hands preventing
my soul from leaving me
in anger.” 
– ‘For Warmth’ by Thich Nhat Hanh

Welcome to episode 18 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, the presenters – Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay practitioner and journalist Jo Confino – delve deeply into Buddhist philosophy by discussing the teaching known as the Three Doors of Liberation (emptiness, signlessness, aimlessness), which is vital to understanding life and living it well.  

Together, they go through each of the three doors, discovering and explaining the corresponding concepts, sharing their own experiences of these deep teachings and how to apply them in daily life.   

Brother Phap Huu shares on the topics of ways to train ourselves to practice emptiness (even in success), signlessness, and aimlessness; Zen stories; touching liberation in daily life; and meditating on our aims in life. 

In addition, Jo looks at the journey of stripping away individual selves, and recollects “the experience of the terror of nothingness”. He further muses on a day of mindfulness in the World Bank, and on not chasing life.

The episode ends with a short meditation on the Three Doors of Liberation, guided by Brother Phap Huu. 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

Dharma Talks: ‘Three Doors of Liberation’ 
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/three-doors-of-liberation-br-phap-khi-italian-retreat-2018-05-01/

The Heart of the Buddha’s Teaching 
https://plumvillage.org/books/the-heart-of-the-buddhas-teaching/

How To: ‘Begin Anew’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/begin-anew/ 

Dharma Talks: ‘Signlessness and Impermanence’
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/signlessness-and-impermanence-dharma-talk-by-sr-dieu-nghiem-sr-jina-2015-09-05/ 

Lakshana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakshana

Eschatology
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eschatology

‘The Doors of Liberation’
https://www.lionsroar.com/the-doors-of-liberation-may-2014/ 

Dharma Talks: ‘The Noble Eightfold Path’
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/the-noble-eightfold-path/

Quotes

“The First Door of Liberation is emptiness, shunyata. Emptiness always means empty of something. A cup is empty of water. A bowl is empty of soup. We are empty of a separate, independent self. We cannot be by ourselves alone. We can only inter-be with everything else in the cosmos. The practice is to nourish the insight into emptiness all day long. Wherever we go, we touch the nature of emptiness in everything we contact. We look deeply at the table, the blue sky, our friend, the mountain, the river, our anger, and our happiness and see that these are all empty of a separate self. When we touch these things deeply, we see the interbeing and interpenetrating nature of all that is. Emptiness does not mean nonexistence. It means Interdependent Co-Arising, impermanence, and nonself.”

“The Second Door of Liberation is signlessness, animitta. ‘Sign’ here means an appearance or the object of our perception. When we see something, a sign or image appears to us, and that is what is meant by ‘lakshana.’ If water, for example, is in a square container, its sign is ‘squareness.’ If in a round container, its sign is ‘roundness.’ When we open the freezer and take out some ice, the sign of that water is solid. Chemists call water ‘H₂O.’ The snow on the mountain and the steam rising from the kettle are also H₂O. Whether H₂O is round or square, liquid, gaseous, or solid depends on circumstances. Signs are instruments for our use, but they are not absolute truth, and they can mislead us. The Diamond Sutra says, ‘Wherever there is a sign, there is deception, illusion.’ Perceptions often tell us as much about the perceiver as the object of perception. Appearances can deceive.”

“The Third Door of Liberation is aimlessness, apranihita. There is nothing to do, nothing to realize, no program, no agenda. This is the Buddhist teaching about eschatology. Does the rose have to do something? No, the purpose of a rose is to be a rose. Your purpose is to be yourself. You don’t have to run anywhere to become someone else. You are wonderful just as you are. This teaching of the Buddha allows us to enjoy ourselves, the blue sky, and everything that is refreshing and healing in the present moment. 

“There is no need to put anything in front of us and run after it. We already have everything we are looking for, everything we want to become. We are already a Buddha so why not just take the hand of another Buddha and practice walking meditation? This is the teaching of the Avatamsaka Sutra. Be yourself. Life is precious as it is. All the elements for your happiness are already here. There is no need to run, strive, search, or struggle. Just be. Just being in the moment in this place is the deepest practice of meditation. Most people cannot believe that just walking as though you have nowhere to go is enough. They think that striving and competing are normal and necessary. Try practicing aimlessness for just five minutes, and you will see how happy you are during those five minutes.”

“What we discover in Buddhism is that once you have a lot of complexes, even superior or inferior, even equality, they come with a lot of suffering. And because of these notions that humans have – right, wrong, good, bad – we start to discriminate. And to practice Buddhism and to touch one of the doors of liberation is to see the emptiness of everything and is to help us be more free.”

“You are who you are, but you are made of everything. And because you have that insight, you are also free from your own ego.” 

“You cannot call a mountain a mountain until you see that it is not a mountain.”

“Practising signlessness, if you look at the mountain, it is made of rocks, dirt, soil, trees, and much, much more. And if you remove all of that, then suddenly the mountain is not there. That is the practice of seeing that the mountain is not a mountain. You are free from the sign that that is just a mountain; if you break it down, you see that it is all of these other elements. So this may be a meditation with which we can look into our own attachments, including to ourselves, like ‘I want to be like that for me to be happy.’ But is that image that we are creating for ourselves really happiness? Or is that just a sign that we have been educated to run after and to see as success? And so, if we break free from all these signs, we’ll become a little bit more free.” 

“Man is not our enemy. The enemy is ignorance. It is hatred. It is discrimination. So we have to help others recognize that so that they can transform too, because everyone has Buddha nature inside of them.”

“Part of the way we try to define ourselves as individuals is by making someone else the enemy, or wrong – because that feeds our need to be right and intelligent [etc].” 

“Happiness is a goal we should all touch in our daily life, because in true happiness you might realise that you don’t need more. What you have is more than enough. What you are is more than enough. And because you are fulfilled, you are at peace, you are free, you have time to love, you have time to be loved, you have time for the ones around you. Isn’t that success? Isn’t that happiness?” 

Welcome to episode 17 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, the presenters, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay practitioner and journalist Jo Confino, are joined by special guest, entrepreneur and author Lindsay Levin, to discuss wise leadership and new ways of creating change and harmony in turbulent times. 

“Serial entrepreneur” Lindsay Levin founded Leaders’ Quest in 2001 as her “last startup”, to help leaders and companies align profit with purpose. Her work explores collective humanity through vulnerability and listening. She also launched the Leaders’ Quest Foundation to build leadership capacity in grassroots communities. 

Her passion for finding common ground between diverse perspectives and opposing voices prompted her to co-lead the launch of the alliance Future Stewards, after the Paris Climate Agreement. Her book, Invisible Giants: Changing the World One Step at a Time (2013), is a celebration of the everyday heroes who have inspired her to ask tough questions, and to strive to be the change she wants to see in the world.

Together, all three also talk about: the balance between urgency and patience; purpose; polarisation; and becoming agents of change. And: at a planetary level, how do we know when to slow down and when to speed up? 

Lindsay Levin further shares her relationship with the teachings of Thich Nhat Hanh and the Plum Village community, and about: working with leaders; dealing with competing interests and egos; spiritual values in the business world; self-awareness; tolerance in the climate movement; listening to others’ lives and widening circles of compassion; responsibility; the gap between cleverness and wisdom; ‘quests’; collective and individual development; planetary well-being; and honouring anger and grief. 

Brother Phap Huu talks about his own experience of dealing with disagreements in the community as abbot of Upper Hamlet, and shares stories about Thich Nhat Hanh as a leader. He also delves into the importance of listening in leadership; applying Buddhist teachings into daily life; bringing together conflicting parties; discriminative mindsets; inclusiveness; adapting to change; avoiding burnout; nourishing compassion; learning to be in stillness; and not postponing ‘simple opportunities’.

Jo shares the story of a company which lost its way after taking the space to create and reflect away from its staff. He delves into the pressure of short-termism; Indigenous insight into decision-making; and being observers of our own selves. And: is time money? 

All three share the simple routines they use to nourish themselves in what they do.

The episode ends with a short meditation on gratefulness, guided by Brother Phap Huu. 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

Lindsay Levin
https://futurestewards.com/team/lindsay-levin/ 

Leaders’ Quest
https://leadersquest.org/ 

Future Stewards
https://futurestewards.com/

‘Please Call Me by My True Names’ (song and poem)
https://plumvillage.org/articles/please-call-me-by-my-true-names-song-poem/ 

Zen and the Art of Saving the Planet
https://www.parallax.org/product/zen-and-the-art-of-saving-the-planet/ 

Trần dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tr%E1%BA%A7n_dynasty

Lý dynasty
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%BD_dynasty

Sister Chan Khong
https://plumvillage.org/about/sister-chan-khong/ 

The opioid crisis
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid_epidemic 

The Great Acceleration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Acceleration 

Moore’s law
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore%27s_law

The TED Countdown Summit
https://countdown.ted.com/events-in-2021 

The secretary-general of the United Nations
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secretary-General_of_the_United_Nations 

Quotes 

“Thay’s teachings are about the essence of life, and beautifully simple yet profound.”

“In our teachings of Buddhism, we say that we are seeds of everything. We are seeds of goodness, but also seeds of evil. And we have to help people see the goodness inside of them. Whatever suffering there is, we have to be there because we can be the light of hope.”

“Go into action and lead by example.”

“Thay created a day of mindfulness where we all come together as a community: we sit together, we listen to a teaching or have a sharing and sing songs, we cook for each other, we help each other relax. And for maybe six hours, we don’t talk about the work, because there’s a side of us that we have to nourish to keep our aspiration alive, and to continue the work that we aspire to do. This is what we call taking care of our well-being. And this is very important in the teachings of Buddhism.”

“There’s a beautiful simplicity to Thay’s teachings; remembering that it comes out of a deep, practiced understanding of suffering makes it applicable to any situation, to any of the challenges we may feel we’re facing. You are not [experiencing anything] harder than what he went through – and there’s a great power to that, which is very exciting.” 

“We learn to flow as a river. And the river is always moving. This image really helped me shed my ego, because Thay teaches us that we all need to learn to be a drop of water in this river. And because we are part of the river, there are moments when we can help lead at the front. And there are moments when we are in the middle, when we can help hold the front and back together; and sometimes we are at the back. The young can help push elders forward by using their voice, their aspirations, sharing with us, with the changes of the world. And so listening is very important for leadership and for growth.”

“One of the fundamental teachings in Buddhism is that man is not our enemy; it is ignorance, it is hatred, it is discrimination.”

“You change the world by how you show up, even in the hardest of circumstances, even in a very conflicted situation; how you turn up to that conversation or that situation changes the outcome. And maybe you can’t change everything, but you can change the outcome; that’s the nature of being interconnected, of living in this interconnected world. That’s the nature of interbeing.”

“For me, one of the [most important] images is that we’re all – I am, at least – a tiny grain of sand in this incredibly beautiful universe. But I want to be a good grain of sand. So how do I make the most of that opportunity?”

“If you’re not open, then you won’t be able to learn. You won’t be able to contribute because you’re not generous.”

“Thay teaches us that, ‘Sometimes we have to learn from our ancestors, and our ancestors include animals. When an animal gets hurt, what does he or she do? They know to stop hunting, to stop looking for a mate, and instead to rest, sleep for many days if needed, and to take care of the wound.’” 

“We have to let the surface of the water be still for it to really reflect.”

“The notion that time is money, I think we have to change that story. Time is life. I think that is the truth, because in our teaching of Buddhism, one of the core teachings of the Buddha is that this moment, here and now, carries the past and is building the future.”

“If we want peace in the world, we have to know how to cultivate peace in ourselves. If we want healing in the world, we have to also heal ourselves – or else we’re just going to keep running after an idea.”

“Peace in oneself, peace in the world: that sense of peace isn’t ‘I’ve solved everything’, but that I recognize what’s going on.”

“Looking at, admiring, and respecting the incredible wisdom of nature, and the intelligent life that is all around us and the rhythm that it follows, I find that immediately calming. You can sit and watch a tree very carefully and see the tree breathing because of how the branches or the leaves are moving. Just watch a leaf and see that. So that’s something that I can come back to at any time; no matter where I am, I can usually find some part of nature to touch.”

“We’re a clever species: we invent stuff. We fix stuff. We figure things out. We’ve harnessed science in so many ways. And so it’s easy to fool yourself into thinking that we are becoming ever, ever smarter. Well, we’re not, and we’re certainly not becoming ever wiser. If you were to plot our wisdom or our individual or collective development, it’s certainly not a graph that’s shooting off the top of the page. It’s more of a slow incline. And I think part of the urgency, pain, fear, and uniqueness that we’re feeling right now is because there’s a gap between how fast the world is changing – in many ways as a result of our actions, some of which have come from clever things that we figured out how to do, often with unintended consequences – and our own capacity, our inner wisdom, our ability to connect, to deeply appreciate our existence, what existence is, what it means to be alive, and what it means to be to be part of life.”

“I often talked to business leaders about this: you’re not going to be able to keep up by running faster. There is no way that, by running ever faster, you are going to catch the pace of change. So in response to that urgency, including urgency over dramatic issues, the importance of justice and planetary well-being and so forth, we actually, perversely, have to slow down. We have to develop the capacity for reflection, for introspection, for developing our sense of connection; for all the things that you teach so beautifully here at Plum Village.” 

“I’m really hopeful because I do think there is a waking-up going on. A lot of things are changing and I think we are waking up, individually and collectively. Maybe not fast enough, but change is happening, and in that process we need to extend to one another. We need to trust one another. People who have [the necessary] skills, which I absolutely do not have, are going to need to be part of designing the new systems that we’re moving towards.”

“Anger needs to be expressed. It’s very real. It’s really valid. It needs to be honored. Grief needs to be honored and valued and heard and respected. And then we have to keep moving; we have to integrate that and look to the other side of it. Why are we in such grief and fear and pain and anger? Well, it’s because we love life. It’s because life is beautiful. Life is an incredible gift.”

“In Indigenous wisdom, there’s the idea of seven generations: that every decision you take, you should think back seven generations in the past and seven generations into the future to say, ‘Where does this idea sit within historical context and what impact will it have in the far future?’ And yet, people are in panic mode. They’re not even thinking one generation ahead. People say, ‘Oh yes, I recognize that I need to do things for my children’, but I almost don’t believe that. People don’t act on it. In part because they are locked into this system where everyone acts the same way – so everyone supports each other in being in denial.”

“We are all leaders. This was an empowerment that our teacher gave us. When we learn to come back to mindfulness, concentration, and insight or wisdom, we all have an opportunity to lead our life, to be mindful. We have a chance to transform our lives, to recognize the habits that lead us down a path that may not give happiness, that may bring us more suffering; to have agency for our own transformation.” 

“Thay teaches us that you don’t have to wait to be an example to change the world after 20, 30 years of practice; today, as you practice, if you’re able to smile, that smile can change somebody’s energy just by causing them to recognize your freshness, your way of being present for someone, or your stability. You’re listening to them with your full attention; that is also leadership, that is telling the other person, ‘I am here for you.’”

Welcome to episode 16 of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, the presenters, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino, are joined by special guest, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Linh (Brother Spirit). Together, they discuss eco-anxiety, the challenges of and solutions for shifting to a new paradigm which can heal us and our planet, and whether it’s possible to change our minds, hearts, and future. Plus: how can you be at peace in what feels like a battlefield? 

The conversation touches upon “the decisive decade”; individualism and competition; interdependence; handling fear; transformation; change in “the age of collective procrastination”; and opportunities in difficult times. Is it possible to ‘sit’ with collapse? 

Brother Phap Linh (Brother Spirit) shares his journey of transformation, from studying sciences at Cambridge, to numerous retreats, and eventual monastic life. 

He further talks about creating transformation at both personal and collective levels; the cult of individualism; societal numbness; handling the energy of negativity; the basis of understanding reality, and what nourishes our views and beliefs; the economic conceit ‘the tragedy of the commons’; creating shared visions and aspirations; and telling new stories. And how do you change your view when you’re caught in the old paradigm?

Brother Phap Huu shares insights on how to not lose ourselves in a fast-paced environment, and looks at: fundamental questions; procrastination; individual aspirations; becoming free from attachment; striving and the importance of stopping; learning in the community; the Six Harmonies; and the joy of sharing.

There’s also important advice for those ‘burning out’ in the environmental movement.

Jo recollects Thich Nhat Hanh’s speech to the members of the UK Parliament and his thoughts on conflictual political systems. He further muses on the lasting joy of community life. 

The episode ends with a short meditation on gratitude and Mother Earth, guided by Brother Phap Linh. 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

Brother Phap Linh (Brother Spirit)
https://plumvillage.org/people/dharma-teachers/brother-phap-linh/ 

Richard Dawkins
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Dawkins 

The tragedy of the commons
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons 

Elinor Ostrom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elinor_Ostrom 

Music for Difficult Times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YarhXTDs8Z4

‘Introduction to Namo Avalokiteshvara’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjBUZrrqAVQ 

Kundun
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundun

Gandhi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandhi_(film) 

Comfortably Numb
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comfortably_Numb

Siddhartha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siddhartha_(novel) 

The Matrix
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Matrix 

Dharma Talks: ‘The Four Noble Truths: Vulture Peak Gathering’
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/the-four-noble-truths-vulture-peak-gathering-2016-06-04-lower-hamlet-sr-dinh-nghiem/

Multi-level selection theory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooperation_%28evolution%29#Multi-level_selection

The Five Mindfulness Trainings
https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness-practice/the-5-mindfulness-trainings/ 

The Fourteen Mindfulness Trainings
https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness-practice/the-14-mindfulness-trainings/ 

Quotes

“When everything is motivated by love, you don’t burn out.”

“My dad wrote me a letter that said, ‘You know, in life, it’s not for me to hand you a rose, but to hand you an onion, where you peel every layer and you cry.’ It’s like we find ourselves through suffering. And it’s the suffering we go through in order to find joy. We can’t bypass suffering.” 

“They say ‘It’s darkest just before the dawn’, and we seem to be at this crossroads where, if we don’t have what Thay would call a collective awakening, we are very, very likely heading for a catastrophe that is unimaginable in terms of the suffering it will create. And there’s an opportunity for this time to turbocharge the change into a new paradigm.” 

“Every single drop that we put in the bucket of mindfulness increases our zone of freedom and our capacity to notice difficult feelings arising in our body and mind. Then, when anxiety is coming up, we’re going to see it coming. You get to see it because you’ve put energy in, maybe five, 10 minutes every day. You paid attention to your steps on the way to work. You made that commitment and you’ve invested. And when you do that, in the difficult moments, you have that little bit of extra time and extra freedom, and you notice that energy coming up; you see it coming and you can go, ‘I see you.’ That’s mindfulness.”

“Dare to feel.”

“What’s interesting is to learn that we have resources, we have ways to meet those difficult feelings, and to transform them, and to not be alone with them. And that’s the power of our community: that we can be in that process of holding, of embracing the pain and the fear, and that we can do it together.” 

“That is enlightenment: to be free from all attachment; we’re not striving for happiness, but we enjoy the path because the path is happiness. We have this notion that we have to accomplish to receive happiness, to arrive at success. But then, [by doing that] we bypass all of these beautiful present moments.” 

“Thay gave a speech to MPs and members of the House of Lords. And one member of the House of Lords said, ‘Well, Thay, the UK political system is, by nature, conflictual. We sit opposite each other, we argue against each other. We’re always trying to point out what’s wrong with each other. What do you think of that?’ And Thay looked at him and after what seemed like an age, he just asked, ‘Does it make you happy?’ That was a really profound moment because it was so far outside the normal conversation. And it feels like, increasingly, we need to be outside of the normal conversation.”

“One of the things that may contribute to a burnout is starting to feel negativity all the time, that kind of blaming. It may actually be true that other people are not doing enough. But the point is that we have to keep our sovereignty. We have to keep our peace, our freedom, and know when we’re being colonized by that energy of judgment and hatred; we have to know how to handle that.”

“Be brave to feel your feelings. Be brave to see what your mind is producing. Once you do, you see the roots of it. And this is the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism: to only change and have transformation as you come to the root of it. So then you start to look at how you live your life: ‘What is it that I’m doing that nourishes this view?’ And if you see the root of it, then you see a way out of it. But seeing is not enough. Then, you have to walk the path; you have to change your way of living. And for me, this is where real transformation happens.”

“In the dharma, we always say, ‘Peace in oneself, peace in the world.’ Which means that, to achieve transformation outside of ourselves, we need to start with ourselves.” 

“Many people have asked me, ‘After Thay passes, who’s the next Thich Nhat Hanh?’ I say, ‘Nobody.’ Thay has told us very clearly that the continuation of Thay is the community. So each and every one of us will be his continuation. Each and every one of us will share that responsibility; that’s the power of community.”

“Learn to go as a river; be a drop of water in the river. Don’t be that drop of oil which doesn’t penetrate into it.”

“My inbreath, the outbreath of the trees. My outbreath, the inbreath of the trees.”

Welcome to episode fifteen of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, the presenters, Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino, talk about the art of community living, and take a closer look at the Plum Village community’s four decades of existence.

The conversation touches upon key friendships – like that between Martin Luther King Jr. and Thich Nhat Hanh; ‘the beloved community’; collective energy; the spirit of togetherness; sustaining a community; deep listening; the importance of the sangha (a community of practitioners) for individuals’ practice of mindfulness. And: can two people form a community?

As abbot of Upper Hamlet and former attendant to Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh, Brother Phap Huu shares inspiring inside stories from the Plum Village community, including unexpected turns of events; the impact on the community of practitioners of Thay’s withdrawal from public life; the secrets to a resilient and harmonious community; sharing opinions versus voting. What is it like to lead a community as a young abbot or abbess? And can you guess Thay’s true ‘masterpiece’?

Jo muses on the importance of vulnerability and of a conscious community; dharma sharing; and how sanghas he joined in different countries impacted his own practice.

The episode ends with a short meditation on community and friendship, guided by Brother Phap Huu. 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

Loving Speech & Deep Listening
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDJBKEOe7Pg 

Bhikkhu/bhikshu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhikkhu

Bodhisattva
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva 

International Sangha Directory
https://plumvillage.org/about/international-sangha-directory/ 

Martin Luther King Jr.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King_Jr. 

Dharma sharing
https://plumvillage.org/extended-mindfulness-practises/ 

Vesak Day
https://plumvillage.org/articles/vesak-day-2021/

Dharma Talks: ‘Beloved Community’
https://plumvillage.org/library/dharma-talks/beloved-community/ 

Brothers in the Beloved Community
https://www.parallax.org/product/brothers-in-the-beloved-community/

Letter from Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. nominating Thich Nhat Hanh for the Nobel Peace Prize in 1967
https://plumvillage.org/letter-from-dr-martin-luther-king-jr-nominating-thich-nhat-hanh-for-the-nobel-peace-prize-in-1967/

“Man is not our enemy”
https://plumvillage.org/articles/blog/poems-of-thay/alone-again-song-recommendation-thays-poetry/ 

Quotes

“Community living is complex, difficult, and needs a lot of openness, deep listening, and negotiation.”

“In the Buddhist language, there’s a teaching on letting go. So we have to really learn to let go of our own ideas of what happiness is, what success is, and to see that our individual happiness is not an individual matter, but that happiness is actually a collective matter. Like, when I’m happy, I think you’ll be happy. And when you suffer, I will also suffer. Maybe not directly, but I can feel it from you. I can also find a way to support you, though. And so, community living is a practice in itself.”

“Our spirit is that everyone shares their opinion and we sit in a circle. So whenever we share an opinion, it’s not about ‘me’; we’re sharing it for the collective community.”

“When Thay says, ‘We don’t need one Buddha, we need many Buddhas’, that is the heart of what is now known as distributed leadership. The world is very complex, so you cannot have one leader who knows everything. What you need to do is give people in each area the responsibility and the accountability that goes with it, rather than having one person at the top of the pyramid. And Plum Village has been doing that for 40 years now.” 

“Thay said, ‘We’re all allowed to suffer. Suffering is a noble truth that is taught in Buddhism, it’s a gem that the Buddha gave to us to have insight. But our responsibility is also to practice with our suffering.’ So, I can suffer, but I’m not just going to go and vent everywhere about it and complain; that’s not the spirit. We all suffer, we all have difficulties, but our practice is to acknowledge it, take care of it, embrace it, and find ways to transform it. And that is very key in our community.”

“We often complain that if we’re to avoid climate change or to deal with social injustice, we are reliant on our leaders to change everything. Yes, of course we need leaders to change things, of course we need policy, of course we need people to change – but, actually, we need to change too. And if everyone takes responsibility for their own contribution, then the world will start to change.”

“Everyone, especially men, we hear a problem and want to solve it. But often people don’t need it to be solved. They need it to be shared, and so it is called dharma sharing for that very reason.”

“In a group setting, each person who shares will at some point share an aspect of themselves – because the whole purpose of Thay’s teaching is about interbeing, that I’m not by myself alone. If you’re suffering but I’m quite happy, it doesn’t mean I have to take on your suffering. But it does mean that, at some level, I recognize your suffering and feel for you in the same way as if I was experiencing it myself.”

“When we want to walk the path that offers us strength, compassion, love, understanding, it’s much easier to do so with friends around you that support it. We call that conditions. And that’s why we say that in spirituality it is so important to have friends. It’s like eating rice with soup. Sometimes the rice can be so dry – but soup helps you swallow. So sometimes friendships are like that sweet, gentle support, that soup that helps you slide through the difficulties more easily.” 

Welcome to episode fourteen of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, presenters Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino are joined by special guest, Zen Buddhist nun Sister Jina (Sister Chân Diệu Nghiêm). A former abbess of Lower Hamlet in Plum Village, since 1990, Sister Jina has been one of Thich Nhat Hanh’s first European monastic disciples. 

Together, these three delve into what it means to arrive home in our bodies, in the present moment. And what is the present moment?

Sister Jina talks about her path to meditation – from yoga teacher in County Wexford, Ireland, to Plum Village, France, via Hokyoji Temple in Japan; her new book of poetry, Moments of Joy (“Instamatic photographs of my daily life but in words”); and her thoughts on meditation after more than 30 years’ practice.

She also shares further wisdom on Buddhist psychology; self-acceptance and self-healing; the importance of sangha; store consciousness (both individual and collective); the benefits on daily life of practicing meditation; guidance on the spiritual path; gladdening the mind and focusing on what’s right in the world. You’ll also find out how walking meditations can sometimes alleviate migraines. 

Brother Phap Huu recollects moments of joy, wisdom, and support from the former abbess, while Jo tells of an unexpected encounter with a real estate agent.

Informed by memories of how others touch our lives, gratitude runs through the whole conversation. By the way, what are you grateful for today?

The episode ends with a short meditation guided by Brother Phap Huu. 

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources 

Sōtō
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dt%C5%8D

Dōgen Zenji
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Dgenhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Dgen

Eihei-ji temple
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eihei-ji

D.T. Suzuki
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._T._Suzuki

The Mindfulness Bell
https://www.parallax.org/mindfulnessbell// 

Ayya Khema
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayya_Khema 

Wabi-sabi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabi-sabi

‘Discourse on the Dharma Seal’
https://plumvillage.org/sutra/discourse-on-the-dharma-seal/

Moments of Joy
https://www.parallax.org/product/moments-of-joy/

Quotes

“I have come to the right place in the right way, aware of every step I take.”

“It’s who we are, individually and collectively, that changes the world.” 

“The journey is the goal. It’s walking the path, it’s practicing. And to arrive in every step, every moment. It’s not, ‘I’m going to run because I want to get straight to enlightenment.’ That’s not how to get to enlightenment. In fact, enlightenment, if I’ve understood correctly, is in the present moment: to arrive in every step, to be fully present in every step, to live fully every moment.”

“This present moment holds the past and the future.”

“The present moment is the only moment we have. And if we realize that, we will live our lives differently.” 

“Nowadays you hear a lot about self-compassion; I think that it’s a door that leads to full self-acceptance and to arriving home. The oneness of body and mind. My body is the home of my mind.”

“People tend to look for the problems in life, rather than looking at what’s right.”

“What goes into the mind, comes out of the mind.” 

“We’re not headings, we are beings.”

“[Plum Village in 1990] looked like a very welcoming place. It had a meditation hall, a dining hall, and there were teachings. So, for me, that’s the monastery, that’s what makes a monastery. You have teachings, you have clothing, food, and a roof over your head – what else do you want?”

“I made a distinction between what I called passive thinking – thoughts just passing by – and active thinking: engaging with the thought that passed through my mind and caused pain.”

“If a tree dies in a garden or a forest, the mistake is to give all your attention to that one tree, when actually it’s really important to look at all the other trees that are still healthy and vibrant.”

“I think home is that sense of collecting all the fragments of our life back together.”

“My experience is gratitude, and gratitude is definitely one way to gladden the mind. So look at what is right in our lives. Even if a lot of things go wrong, look for what is still right, and I’m sure we will find something. And then allow what is right to gladden our mind.” 

“Let’s say store consciousness is like the Earth, which contains all the seeds. And the seeds that you water will grow into plants. But when they grow into plants and flower, they become mental formations. And you have positive mental formations, not-so-positive mental formations, and neutral mental formations. So I practice, ‘What do I consume? What seeds do I water? What plants am I growing? What is my garden of the mind looking like?’” 

Welcome to episode thirteen of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, presenters Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino talk about sensual pleasures, temptations, and what the Buddha had to say about these topics, 2,600 ago. They further ponder how to come back to our true selves rather than looking outside of ourselves for happiness and indulging in fame, sex, and power. And is it true that what you put in your head manifests in your daily life?  

Brother Phap Huu reads relevant gathas from Discourse on Youth and Happiness and digs deeper into the four elements of love and the three complexes. He also talks about finding joy and happiness in a simple monastic life (do you know why monastics shave their head?); true connection; the joy of being part of a retreat for thousands of people; witnessing transformation; togetherness; becoming ‘a place of refuge’ for others.

You’ll find tips on recognizing when the ego takes over, how to direct sexual energy into something wholesome, and how to not become a slave to pleasure.  

Jo delves into spotting insecurities; breaking through the myths we create about others; letting go of inferiority and superiority complexes; humility and trust.

You’ll get some journalistic tips for editing your own life. And talking of life, if you were a sunflower in a field, which one would you be?

The episode ends with a meditation guided by Brother Phap Huu.

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources

Discourse on Youth and Happiness
https://plumvillage.org/library/sutras/discourse-on-youth-and-happiness/ 

‘Creating Gathas’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/creating-gathas-mindfulness-at-play/ 

World Economic Forum (Davos)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Economic_Forum 

Dr. Seuss
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._Seuss   

Sutras
https://plumvillage.org/genre/sutras/ 

Quotes

“When we become a monk or a nun and we enter into a spiritual commitment, we are learning to let go of something, learning to put a stop to our habits, a stop to our desire. So when we shave our heads and commit ourselves to this life, it is also a sign of determination that I am ready to cut off all my friction, cut off all my desire and learn to live deeply in the present moment and be free from it.” 

“To learn to recognize suffering, sometimes we have to learn to recognize our habit of running after pleasure.”

“The Buddha teaches me that I am not chasing something in the future. I am learning to live deeply in the present moment because the desire that we run after can offer just a little sweetness, but much bitterness later on.”

“When we run after pleasure, we are losing ourselves.”

“For most of us, the truth is that we don’t know ourselves and we don’t spend the time to come back to ourselves. So we get caught in this pattern of chasing after things we think will make us happy. But ultimately, we always know that you can’t find happiness outside of yourself. That’s why this podcast is called The Way Out Is In, because it’s only by coming back to ourselves and understanding who we truly are that we can be happy.”

“So much in life is a creation of our mind, and if we pierce it, we find truth. And I would much rather get to know someone more deeply than to have a fantasy about them.” 

“The way you navigate in today’s world is not only internally, but you also have to take care of your connections, your environment, and the people around you, because they are also influences. They can also give some hooks unmindfully through conversations or even ideas and views.”

“The whole purpose of Buddhism, Buddhist philosophy, is to find true happiness.”

“Most of Western society now is built on bypassing our suffering, thinking that happiness is to avoid suffering, not to go through our suffering. Because the truth is that it’s by going into our suffering that we find our way through.” 

“We have to heal this idea of what love is.”

“Ending desire, overcoming the three complexes,
Our mind is stilled, we have nothing to long for.
We lay aside all affliction and sorrow,
In this life and in lives to come.”

“If you think you are greater, less than, or equal, you cause dissension. When those three complexes have ended, nothing can agitate your mind.”

“Life continues in so many different ways. And the Buddha, even though he passed away 2,600 years ago, is still present today through his teachings. So each and every one of us, as human beings, we have many ways to continue in this life, even after we are not here.” 

“One of the things within Thich Nhat Hanh’s mindfulness training is to be careful what we consume because the fact is, what we consume is what we become.”

“This is because that is. We all inter-be, we all are flowers of humanity, and each flower is unique in its own way.”

“We’re always growing, we’re always changing, and that is the beauty of us. And if we recognize that we’re always changing and that the way we take care of ourselves in this very moment will shape who we will be tomorrow, then our future is very bright.” 

Welcome to episode twelve of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, presenters Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino are joined by special guest, eco-philosopher Joanna Macy.

A scholar of Buddhism, systems theory, and deep ecology, Joanna Macy, PhD, is one of the most respected voices in the movements for peace, justice, and ecology. She interweaves her scholarship with learnings from six decades of activism, has written twelve books, and teaches an empowerment approach known as the Work That Reconnects. 

Together, all three discuss: the relevance of Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings to the crises we face today as a species; the energy of simplicity; truth-telling and the power of facing the truth; the grounds for transformation; impermanence; interbeing. 

Joanna recollects what Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings and activism have meant to her, and shares a special meeting with him in the early 1980s, during a UN peace conference, when Thay read one of his essential poems in public for the first time. Joanna’s activism, forged during many campaigns, and her practice and study of Theravada Buddhism, shine through in her priceless advice about facing the current social and ecological crisis, grieving for all creation, and finding the power to deal with the heartbreaking present-day reality. She also addresses how grief and joy can coexist in one person, and how to be present for life even in the midst of struggle.

Their conversations will take you from the current “great unravelling” and the “gift of death” to Rilke’s poetry; the magic of love as solution; active hope; the contemporary relevance of the ancient Prophecy of the Shambhala Warriors; the possibility of a “great turning”. And can you guess her aspirations at 92? Could a swing be just the perfect place to discuss the evanescence of life?

Brother Phap Huu shares a lesson in patience from Thay, and adds to the teachings of touching suffering, recognizing and embracing the truth, consumption of consciousness, finding balance, and smiling at life. 

Jo reads a special translation of one of Rainer Maria Rilke’s Duino Elegies, expands upon some of Joanna’s core books and philosophies, and recollects “irreplaceable” advice about overwork.  

The episode ends with a guided meditation by Joanna Macy.

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/ 

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/ 

List of resources  

Lotus in a Sea of Fire (1967)
https://plumvillage.org/books/1967-hoa-sen-trong-bien-lua-lotus-in-a-sea-of-fire/

Call Me By My True Names
https://plumvillage.org/books/call-me-by-my-true-names/

Celestial Bodhisattvas
https://www.encyclopedia.com/environment/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/buddhas-and-bodhisattvas-celestial-buddhas-and-bodhisattvas

Rainer Maria Rilke
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainer_Maria_Rilke 

Duino Elegies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duino_Elegies 

The Tenth Elegy
https://www.tellthestory.co.uk/translatedpoemduino10.html

The Book of Hours
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_Hours 

Satipaṭṭhāna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana 

World as Lover, World as Self
https://www.parallax.org/product/world-as-lover-world-as-self-a-guide-to-living-fully-in-turbulent-times/

‘The Shambhala Warrior’
https://www.awakin.org/read/view.php?tid=236 

The Shambhala Warrior Prophecy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dbM93FALE 

Bardo
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardo 

‘Entering the Bardo’
https://emergencemagazine.org/op_ed/entering-the-bardo/ 

Maitreya
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitreya 

Ho Chi Minh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ho_Chi_Minh

Śūnyatā
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%9A%C5%ABnyat%C4%81

Svabhava 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svabhava

Kṣitigarbha
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E1%B9%A3itigarbha 

Parallax Press
https://www.parallax.org/

Ānāpānasati
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anapanasati 

Satipaṭṭhāna
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satipatthana

Quotes 

“Do not be afraid of feeling pain for the world. Do not be afraid of the suffering, but take it. That’s what a bodhisattva learns to do, and that makes your heart very big.”

“Life is only difficult for those who pick and choose. You just take it. And that helps you feel whole, and maybe flying with the birds helps you be with the deep levels of hell. But this is life and it’s all given to us and it’s given free.”

“It doesn’t take a poet; all of us can feel that there are times when a shadow passes over our mood and we taste the tears. Taste the tears. They’re salty. It’s the living Earth. We are part of this.” 

“All Rilke says is, ‘Give me the time so I can love the things.’ As if that’s the great commandment. So I want more time to do what I’m made to do. Why else do we have these hearts with more neurons in them than our brains? Why else are we given eyes that can see the beauty of this world and ears that can hear such beautiful poetry? And lungs that can breathe the air. We have to use these things for tasting and loving our world. And if she’s ailing, now is the time to love her more.”

“You are the environment; the environment is not outside of you.”

“We are in a space without a map. With the likelihood of economic collapse and climate catastrophe looming, it feels like we are on shifting ground, where old habits and old scenarios no longer apply. In Tibetan Buddhism, such a space or gap between known worlds is called a bardo. It is frightening. It is also a place of potential transformation. As you enter the bardo, there facing you is the Buddha Akshobhya. His element is Water. He is holding a mirror, for his gift is Mirror Wisdom, reflecting everything just as it is. And the teaching of Akshobhya’s mirror is this: Do not look away. Do not avert your gaze. Do not turn aside. This teaching clearly calls for radical attention and total acceptance.”

“We all have an appointment, and that appointment is with life. And if we can touch that in each moment, our life will become more beautiful when we allow ourselves to arrive at that appointment.”

“Even in despair, we have to enjoy life, because we see life as beautiful; [we see] that planet Earth is still a miracle.”

“We know we are still alive, and because we are alive, anything is possible. So let us take care of the situation in a more calm and mindful way.” 

“Even wholesome things can become a distraction if you make them take the place of your sheer presence to life.” 

“Maybe this really will be the last chapter. But I’m here, and how fortunate I am to be here. And I have imagined that it’s so wonderful to be here.”

“Impermanence: the fragrance of our day.”

Welcome to episode eleven of The Way Out Is In: The Zen Art of Living, a podcast series mirroring Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh’s deep teachings of Buddhist philosophy: a simple yet profound methodology for dealing with our suffering, and for creating more happiness and joy in our lives.

In this episode, presenters Zen Buddhist monk Brother Phap Huu and lay Buddhist practitioner and journalist Jo Confino are joined by special guest novice Zen Buddhist nun Sister Hien Tam of the New Hamlet in Plum Village. This time, they explore monastic life: why do people want to become monastics? What happens between aspiring to be a monastic and actually becoming one? And what’s it like to live in a monastery? 

The two monastics talk about: their own journeys; engaging in society as nuns and monks; the secret to a long-lived community like Plum Village (40 years old next year!); individualism; transformation; conflict; practices that support the community. 

Sister Hien Tam tells the story of her pre-monastic life as a busy, restless, consumerist TV writer in Korea, and the unplanned visit to Plum Village which led to her becoming an aspirant and then a nun in less than three years. She candidly shares about saying goodbye to “external expressions”; her family’s reaction; ditching her “fancy”, colourful clothes for the brown robe; following clear guidelines; sharing a room with many sisters after having lived her life alone; dealing with habit energies; inner beauty; the “Buddha company”.

In addition, Brother Phap Huu discusses moderation; aspirations; inferiority complexes; loving clothes as a monk; learning to live a simpler and happy life; growing up in a monastic community; the practices of Shining Light and Beginning Anew; observing and training new aspirants; community work days.

Jo shares his own formula for a ‘mini’ Shining Light in individual relationships, and having to face his own suffering when the distractions of the outside world fade away.

Finally, Brother Phap Huu ends the episode with a guided meditation on generating peace.

Co-produced by the Plum Village App:
https://plumvillage.app/

And Global Optimism:
https://globaloptimism.com/

With support from the Thich Nhat Hanh Foundation:
https://thichnhathanhfoundation.org/

List of resources 

Plum Village Community
https://plumvillage.org/

‘Becoming a Monastic’
https://plumvillage.org/about/becoming-a-monastic/ 

Beginning Anew: Four Steps to Restoring Communication
https://plumvillage.org/books/beginning-anew/ 

How To: ‘Begin Anew’
https://plumvillage.org/articles/begin-anew/ 

Bodhicitta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhicitta

‘Slow Down, Rest, and Heal: The Spirit of the Rains Retreat’
https://plumvillage.org/podcast/slow-down-rest-and-heal-the-spirit-of-the-rains-retreat/ 

Sangha
https://plumvillage.org/about/international-sangha-directory/ 

‘Deciding to Become a Monastic in Plum Village’
https://wkup.org/become-monastic-plum-village/ 

‘Life as Monastic Aspirants in Plum Village’
https://wkup.org/monastic-aspirants-plum-village/

Quotes

“Be beautiful, be yourself.”

“Everyone needs a spiritual dimension in their daily life to help them maintain their balance. And within ourselves, we have this seed. We call it bodhicitta. Everyone has this. It’s called the mind of love or the mind of awakening.” 

“As I became a monk, I learned that that is a way of engagement that we practice – not just to be peaceful and happy for ourself, but that our practice is a way of contributing to society, to those around us.”

“I always remember Thich Nhat Hanh saying that relationships never break up out of the blue, from something major happening. It’s from the very minor drip. He talked about it like a stalagmite or a stalactite in a cave: the small drip of problems which, at the time, are very often not addressed.”

“We share our joy and we share our success. That’s really important because in our time, where individualism is prioritized, growin up, we’re all taught to be successful by ourselves. And now, in a community, we have many talents and many types of leaders. I think a community needs a leader, but we don’t need one leader. We can have many types of leaders and when we offer a retreat, we have people leading dharma sharing, people leading Dharma Talks, people leading walking or even cooking. And for me, that’s leading like a team.”

“The simple life makes me very creative […] I feel I have more energy to take care of my inner beauty.”

“Sometimes the answers are the most obvious ones, but we don’t immediately think of them, we don’t realize that the reason I’m not fully happy is because I’ve stopped and I’m having to face myself. I’m feeling this tension in myself because I’m in Plum Village, not in spite of being in Plum Village. So this idea of how we stop means we have to look at ourselves as if we really stop and take away all the extraneous stuff: cinemas, Netflix, restaurants, and everything. All we’re left with is ourselves, and that’s quite a challenge.” 

“The practice teaches us to see ourselves like a mirror. Everything you do is you. You can’t put that blame on anyone else and you cannot hide away from it.”

“We are all cells of one body, so if I shine a light on you, I am also shining a light on myself.”

“I remember Thich Nhat Hanh would say about couples that you can share the same bed, but if you don’t have the same dream, then actually it can never work out.”

“Thich Nhat Hanh always says that love is understanding. And I think what you’re saying is that, unless we start to more deeply understand each other, then actually you don’t really generate love.”

“Thanks to the practice, we learn about moderation. And when you have one thing that is beautiful and it does what it needs to, you don’t have to search for anything else. And so I apply that to everything, even to happiness or my community. Even though we’re not the best and we have shortcomings, that’s good enough. I don’t need to keep searching or else I’m just going to be going round and round looking for something.”

“Letting go of the extraneous stuff, letting go of things outside and just saying, ‘Actually, I’m good enough as I am and actually I want to be myself.’ I don’t want to be this egoic mask of myself that’s seeking to feel better about myself by proving anything. I can just be truly who I am and be at peace. And it makes life so much more enjoyable, not wanting to grasp things or think that something outside of us is going to make us happy.”