On this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nirali Jain (eggspert_md), a board-certified OB/GYN and reproductive endocrinologist at Reproductive Medical Associates (RMA). Dr. Jain shares her expert insights on fertility preservation for individuals undergoing cancer treatment, a crucial yet often overlooked aspect of reproductive care.

We explore what options are available for fertility preservation, including egg and sperm freezing, and why it’s so important to initiate these discussions before starting chemotherapy or radiation. Dr. Jain also explains the difference between Letrozole and Clomid, the impact of estrogen-sensitive cancers on IVF treatments, and innovative approaches like random-start cycles and DuoStim protocols. Whether you're facing a cancer diagnosis or simply thinking proactively about your reproductive future, this conversation is filled with knowledge and reassurance.

Key Takeaways:

• Why it’s essential to discuss fertility before starting cancer treatment.
• The role of Letrozole in estrogen-sensitive cancers and fertility preservation.
• Differences between Letrozole and Clomid, and why Letrozole is often preferred.
• How new protocols like DuoStim and random-start cycles are improving outcomes.
• Why fertility preservation is important even for those without a cancer diagnosis.

Guest Bio: Dr. Nirali Jain (@eggspert_md) is a board-certified OB/GYN and fertility specialist at Reproductive Medicine Associates (RMA) in Basking Ridge, New Jersey. She earned both her undergraduate degree in neurobiology (with a minor in dance!) and her medical degree from Northwestern University, before completing her residency at Weill Cornell/NYP, where she served as co-Chief Resident, and her fellowship in reproductive endocrinology and infertility at NYU Langone.

Deeply passionate about women’s health and fertility preservation, Dr. Jain blends the latest research and cutting-edge treatments with compassionate, patient-centered care. Her interests include third-party reproduction and oncofertility, and she is especially passionate about supporting patients navigating fertility preservation through a cancer diagnosis.

Outside of the clinic, Dr. Jain is a trained dancer, a dedicated global traveler, and an adventurer working toward hiking all seven continents with her husband. Her diverse experiences, from international medical rotations to personal connections with friends and family navigating infertility, have shaped her into a warm, resourceful, and determined advocate for her patients.

Links and Resources: Visit RMA websiteFollow Dr. Nirali Jain on Instagram For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. -- 

Transcript:

 

# TWF-Jain-Nirali (Video)

​[00:00:00] 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast Jain. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Thanks so much for having me

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, so.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I'm very excited to talk about this topic, which, um, actually you don't really hear a lot of people talking about, which is how to preserve your fertility if you're going through a cancer diagnosis and if you have to go through treatments. 'cause obviously that can impact a lot on fertility.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I have, um, seen actually like a colleague of mine go through. And she also preserved her fertility and, and now she has a baby boy. so it's really nice.

**Michelle Oravitz:** to

**riverside\_nirali\_jain\_raw-video-cfr\_michelle\_oravitz's \_0181:** so nice.

**Michelle Oravitz:** So I'd love for you first to introduce yourself and kind Of give us a background on how you got into this work.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. Um, so I am Dr. Narly Jane. I am, um, an OB GYN by training, and then I did an additional, after completing four years of residency in OB GYN and getting board certified in that, I did an additional training in reproductive endocrinology and [00:01:00] infertility or otherwise known as REI. So now I'm a fertility specialist.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, I trained at Northwestern in Chicago, so I went to undergrad and medical school there. And then, um, home has always been New Jersey for me, so I moved back out east to New Jersey. Um, I did all my training actually in New York City at Cornell for residency and NYU for fellowship. Um, and then moved to the suburbs.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, and now I'm a fertility specialist in, in Basking Ridge at Reproductive Medical Associates. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Very impressive background. That's awesome. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I'd love to hear just really. About what your process is. If a person has been diagnosed with cancer, like what is the process? What are some of the things that you address if they are trying to preserve fertility, and what are some of the concerns going 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah, yeah. All great questions. So, you know, there's a lot of us, uh, the Reis. Are a very small, [00:02:00] there's a very small number of us. So in terms of specializing in fertility preservation, technically we all are certified to treat patients with cancer and kind of move them through fertility preservation before starting chemotherapy.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, luckily we've been working closely with oncologists in the past several years just to establish some type of streamlined system because having a diagnosis of cancer and hearing all that information. Especially when you're young is so hard. So I think that's, that's where my interest started in terms of being able to speak to and counsel cancer patients.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think it is a very specific niche that you really have to be comfortable with in our field. Um, I. So I'll kind of walk you through, you know, what it, what does it look like, right? Um, you go into your oncologist's office suspecting that you have this, this lump. I'll take breast cancer, for example. It could really be any kind of cancer.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but breast cancer in a reproductive age patient or someone that's in those years where you're starting [00:03:00] to think about building a family, planning a family, um, or if you have kids at home, that's usually the type of patient that we see come in with a breast cancer diagnosis. So. Kinda just taking that, for example, um, the minute that you're diagnosed, it's really your oncologist's responsibility to counsel you on what treatment options are going to be offered to you.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** And then based off of the treatment options, it's important to know how that affects your reproduction. So how does it affect your ovaries in the short term, in the long term, um, in any way possible. So. Once a patient is initially referred from their oncologist to myself or any other fertility specialist, they come into my office and we just have a 30 minute conversation really talking about family planning goals.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Any kids that they've had in the past either naturally conceived or through um, IVF, and then we talk about where they're at in their relationship. Are they married, are they not? Are they with a partner, [00:04:00] a male partner, a female partner, whatever it might be. It's important to know the social standpoint, um, especially in this sensitive phase of life.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So patient patients usually spend anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour. Um, just kind of talking through where they're at, how they're feeling, what their ultimate childbearing goals are. And then from there we do an ultrasound and that's when I'm really able to see, you know, the, the reproductive status.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So what do the ovaries look like? What does the uterus look like? Is there something that I need to be concerned about from a baseline GYN standpoint? Um, and all of those conversations are happening in real time. So. I think one of the things is patients come in and they're like, I'm already so overwhelmed with all this information from my oncologist, and now my fertility specialist is throwing all this information at me.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Luckily, the way I like to frame it is you come in and you just let go. Like you let us do the work because in the background we're the ones talking to your oncologist. We're the [00:05:00] ones giving that feedback and creating a timeline with your oncologist. Um, and really I think just getting in the door is the hardest part.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So once patients are here to see us, we go through the whole workup. We do anything that we would do for a normal patient that came in for fertility preservation. And then based off of where they're at in their journey, we talk about what makes sense for them, whether that means freezing embryos, freezing eggs, they're very similar in terms of the, the few weeks leading up to the egg retrievals.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I have that whole conversation just at the initial visit. And then from there we talk about the timeline behind the scenes and make sure that it works with their lives before moving forward.

**Michelle Oravitz:** So for people listening to this, why, and this might be an obvious question, but to some it might not be, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm.

**Michelle Oravitz:** why would somebody want to preserve. eggs or sperm. 'cause I've had actually some couples 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep.

**Michelle Oravitz:** come to me where the husband preserved the sperm and they had to go through IVF just because he was going [00:06:00] through cancer treatments. So he had to preserve the sperm ahead of time. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm.

**Michelle Oravitz:** people need to consider doing that before doing cancer treatments? 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So there are certain cancer treatments that do affect the ovaries and the sperm health, and you know, for men and women, it affects your reproductive organs. In a similar way, um, depending on the type of chemotherapeutic agent, there are some that are more dangerous in terms of, um, being toxic to your ovaries or toxic to your sperm.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** And those are the instances where we are really thinking about what's the long-term impact because there's medications that oncologists do give patients, and our oncologists are amazing, the ones that we work with, Memorial Sloan Kettering from Reproductive Medical Associates through RMA, um, and.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** They're just so good at what they do and are so well-trained, so they know in the back of their mind, is this going to impact your ovaries or your sperm health or not? Um, and I [00:07:00] think that any chemotherapy, you know, your ovaries are these, these small organs that are constantly turning over follicles every month.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So every month we're losing those eggs, and if they don't become. If an egg isn't ovulated, it doesn't become a baby, it's just gonna die off. So I counsel even patients that don't have cancer, I counsel them on fertility preservation as young as possible. You know, between the ages of 28 and 35, that's like the best time to preserve your fertility.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So in cancer patients, there's an extra level added to that where even if they are a little bit younger, a little bit older. Your eggs are not gonna be the same quality. There's gonna be higher level of chromosomal errors, more DNA breakage, um, and, and bigger issues that lead to issues with conceiving naturally afterwards.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I think that it's important to consider how that chemotherapy is going to affect them or how surgery would affect them if it was, for example, a GYN cancer where [00:08:00] we're removing a whole ovary, you know, what, what do we have to do to preserve your fertility in that case? And those are important conversations to have.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. for sure. I know that a lot of people are also concerned, you know, with going through the IVF process, you're taking in a lot of estrogen, a lot of hormones, and many cancers are actually estrogen sensitive. So I wanted to talk to you about that. 'cause I know that the data shows that it's. It's been fine, which some people might find surprising, but I wanted you to address that and just kind of

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** from your perspective. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's so interesting that you asked that question because I actually, my whole I I graduated fellowship last year and my entire, like passion project in fellowship was looking at one of the drugs that we use to suppress the estrogen levels specifically in cancer patients. Um, and I had presented this at a few of our reproductive meetings.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, A SRM is one of our annual meetings where all of the reiss get together. A lot of male fertility [00:09:00] specialists come and we kinda just talk about. Specific things and fertility preservation for cancer patients is, has been an ongoing topic of interest for all of us. Um, and it's important to know that there are different medications that we can offer.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is the one that I, um, have a particular love for and I, uh, you know, I use all the time for my patients, um, for different reasons, but it suppresses the exposure that your body has to estrogen. And there's mixed data, um, out there in terms of, you know, does Letrozole suppression actually impact, you know, does it help or.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Or does it have no impact on your future risk of cancer after treatment? Um, and that honestly is still up for debate. But what we do know is that there's no increased risk of cancer recurrence in patients that have undergone fertility preservation with or without Letrozole. Um, Letrozole is one of those things that we can give, and the way it works is basically.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** It masks that [00:10:00] conversion. It, it doesn't allow for conversion from those androgens in the male hormones over to estrogen. Um, and so your body doesn't really see that estrogen exposure. It stays nice and low throughout your cycle, and it does help with actually ovarian maturation and getting mature eggs harvested and, um, helps a little bit with, with quality too.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So I think that it's really nice in terms of having that available to us, but know that. It's not, it's not essential that you have it, really, the data showing plus minus. Um, but there are certain things that we can do to protect the ovaries, protect your exposure to estrogen. Um, and so that shouldn't be top of mind of concern when we're going through fertility preservation, even with an estrogen sensitive cancer.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Actually, so, uh, on a different topic, kind of going back to that, so Letrozole versus Clomid, I, it's like a, the questions I personally feel just based on what I've heard and like my own research that Letrozole would be kind of like the more. [00:11:00] Um, the, it's, it's a little better, but I know that it really depends on the person as well. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** they might do better with Clom, but I'd love to hear your perspective and kind of pick your brain on this. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally. You're choosing all the, all the right questions because these are all of my, my specific interests and niches. So 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is basically, you know, we use Letrozole and Clomid in. Patients that don't have cancer and patients that come in for an intrauterine insemination, that's kind of the most common scenario where we're thinking about, you know, which medication is better?

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole or Clomid and Clomid used to be the, the most common medication that we use, we dose patients, you know, have 50 milligrams of Clomid, give them five days of the medication. It's an oral pill. Feels really easy and. The way it works is really, it recruits more than one follicle, so it really helps with the release of, um, more than one follicle growing more than one follicle in the ovary.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but it has a little bit [00:12:00] higher of a risk of twins because that's exactly what it's good at. Um, Clomid, not so much in the cancer. In the cancer front, it's not really used there because it's considered, from a scientific perspective, it's considered like a selective estrogen receptor modulator. So it doesn't necessarily suppress your estrogen levels in the same way that Letrozole does versus.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Letrozole is an aromatase inhibitor, so it really blocks the chemical conversion of one drug or one hormone to the other hormone. Um, the reason we love Letrozole so much, and I don't mean to like gush over Letrozole, but um, it's a mono follicular agent, so it works really well at recruiting one follicle 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** you know, every OB-GYN's nightmare in a way is having multiples when you didn't intend on having multiples at all.

**Michelle Oravitz:** so 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um.

**Michelle Oravitz:** were saying that, um, there's more of a chance of twins, it's Clomid, not letrozole. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yes, there's a higher chance with Clomid versus Letrozole. And I mean, don't get me wrong, there's a chance of twins with [00:13:00] any type of assisted reproductive technology. Even when we're doing single embryo transfers, there's a chance that it's gonna split. So, um, the chance is always there just like it is in the natural world.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** But we know for a fact that. CLO is really good at recruiting many follicles. It's good for certain patients that don't respond well to Letrozole. Um, but Letrozole is kind of our, our go-to drug these days just because of all the benefits that we've seen. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** These are all fun things to ask because I, I love talking to our eis 'cause there's so much information that I'm always 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally.

**Michelle Oravitz:** learn a lot from my patients in my own research, but it's really cool. Picking your guys' brains. So another question I have, and I have actually talked to Dr. Andrea Elli, he's been on, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm.

**Michelle Oravitz:** and he does a lot of endometriosis and, and immune related work as well, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** so. I'd love to know just from your perspective. One thing that I do know from, based on what I've heard is that the, [00:14:00] guess like you were just saying, that breast cancer or estrogen sensitive breast cancer doesn't seem to be affected by IVF cycles, however, and endometriosis lesions do get affected. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** that's a great question. So, you know, every, there are so many complex G mind diagnoses that the, that our patients come in with. Um, and endometriosis is a big one because there is clear data that endometriosis is linked to infertility. So we think about, you know, when a patient comes in with endometriosis, we really do think about the different treatment options and what are the short-term and long-term impacts of the hormones that we're giving 'em.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, these days, again, kind of going back to Letrozole, we, letrozole is something that I give all of my endometriosis patients because it helps suppress their estrogen because we know. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** interesting. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** is very responsive to estrogen and leads to this dysfunctional regulation of all the endometrial tissue that can really flare in a, [00:15:00] in a cycle, or shortly after a cycle.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I. So we really, for endometriosis patients, the, the best treatment is being on birth control because we don't see that hormonal fluctuation. The up and down of the estrogen and the progesterone, that's what leads to those flares. Um, so I really, I watch patients closely after their cycles too, because you definitely can have an endometriosis flare and we say the best treatment for endometriosis is pregnancy, right?

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's when you're suppressed, that's when you're at your lowest. Um, and patients, my endo patients feel so good in pregnancy because they have. Hormones that are nice in that baseline, they're not getting periods of course. Um, and that's truly, truly the best treatment. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's interesting. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** But it is important to consider when you're going through infertility treatments.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** How does my endometriosis affect the short and long-term effects of the fertility medications? And really not to, not to say that they're bad in any way. I think a lot of endometriosis patients go through IVF and have success and do really, really well, and that's kind of the push that they need. [00:16:00] Um, but it's important to be mindful of the bigger picture here.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** It's not just, you're not just a number of. A patient with endo coming in, getting the same protocol. It's really individualized to the extent of your lesions, what symptoms you're having, what grade of endometriosis, where your lesions are. So we're the RAs are thinking about everything before we actually start your protocol.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's crazy how in depth it is, and it's, it, there's just so, it's so multifaceted, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** when it's females 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** totally.

**Michelle Oravitz:** are a little, I mean, they can, you know, there, there's definitely a number of things, but it's not as complicated and interconnected 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Exactly. Exactly. That's so true.

**Michelle Oravitz:** And so one question I actually have, this is kind of really off topic, but something that I was curious about.

**Michelle Oravitz:** 'cause I heard about a while 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** a, a type of cancer treatment that was used. I'm not sure exactly what it was, but for some reason it actually caused follicles to grow, [00:17:00] or to multiply. And they were

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Interesting.

**Michelle Oravitz:** this definitely. Puts, um, the whole idea of like a woman being born with all the follicles she'll ever have on its head, I thought that was really Interesting.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Now I learned a little bit about it. I don't think it really went further than that, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Mm-hmm.

**Michelle Oravitz:** one of those things that they're like, Hmm, this is interesting. I don't know, it was kind of a random side effect of this chemo drug. I dunno if it was a chemo drug or a cancer drug. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** ever heard of that.

**Michelle Oravitz:** So I was just

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I haven't, I mean, that's interesting. I feel like I'd have to look into that because that would be definitely a point of interest for a lot of Reis. But it kind of does go back to the point of, you know, women are really born with all the eggs we're ever gonna have. So it's about a million, and then it just goes down from there.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** And the, by the time you start having periods, I like to kind of show my patients a chart, but you have a couple hundred thousand eggs and you ovulate one egg a month. That's, you know. Able to [00:18:00] progress into a fertilized egg and then into a, an embryo into a baby, um, if that's your goal. But otherwise, patients that are having periods and not trying to actually get pregnant, we're losing hundreds of eggs a month.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** It's important to kind of think about that decline, and it's important to know that that rate can be faster in patients with cancer, patients with low ovarian reserve. And sometimes when you have the two compounded, that's when a fertility specialist is definitely, you know, in the queue to, to have a discussion with you in terms of what that means and how you can reach your family building goals despite being faced with that, with that challenge.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I mean, 'cause we know oxidative stress is one of the things that can cause, uh, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** quality eggs, but it's also can cause cancer.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** um, similar, you know, like things that really deplete the body could definitely impact. Um, and then what are your thoughts? I know I'm asking you all kinds of random questions,

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I love it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** are your thoughts about doing low simulation in certain [00:19:00] circumstances versus high stem?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Sometimes people don't respond as well to higher stems. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, that's a great point. I think that it kind of all goes back to creating an individualized protocol. If. A patient's going to a practice and basically just getting a protocol saying, this is our standard. We start with our standard of, you know, I, I think about the standard, which is 300 of the FSH or that pen that you dial up, and then 150 units of that powder vial.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** And we have patients mixing powders all the time, and that's kind of our blanket protocol that we give patients. But that's not really what's happening behind the scenes. And if you're given a protocol that's, and being told, you know, this is kind of what we give to everyone, it's probably not the right fit for you.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, there are certain patients that respond to a much lower dose and do really, really well, and then some patients that need a much higher dose. Um, and I think it's, that's kind of like the fun part of being an REI of being able to individualize the [00:20:00] protocol to the patient. Um, and I know for a fact there are so many, luckily, you know, we have so many leaders in REI that have been.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Have dedicated their entire careers to researching these different protocols and how they can help different patients. Um, patients with lower a MH, you know, might benefit from a duo stim protocol, for example. That's kind of the first one that comes to mind, but a protocol where we're using those follicles from the second half of a cycle.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I would've never thought that those were the follicles that 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** would be better than the first half of the cycle, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Wait, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** but,

**Michelle Oravitz:** that. Explain that. Um, because I think that that's kind of a unique 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** mm-hmm. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** that I haven't heard of. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, so there's this new day. It's still kind of developing, but um, kind of going back to, you know, what's an individualized protocol? Duo STEM is one of the newer protocols that we've started using. I, I've used it once or twice in patients. Um, but it goes back to the research that shows that you might actually have two different periods of time in a menstrual cycle where you could potentially recruit [00:21:00] follicles.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** You could have a follicular phase where there's a certain cohort of follicles recruited, and then you have a follicle that forms creates a corpus glut. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** um, protocols 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep. And then you basically go through the follicular protocol and then a few days after a retrieval, instead of waiting for a new follicular cohort or follicular recruitment from the first half of your menstrual cycle, you actually use the luteal phase and you recruit those follicles that would've actually died off or have been prematurely recruited in a prior cycle.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So

**Michelle Oravitz:** that's So 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** you just do a similar, I guess, um, medicine, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** go right back into it. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** do the same exact thing, but right after ovulation. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Fascinating. That's really interesting. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** has been your experience with that? 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think it's, honestly, it's mixed. Um, so far, you know, our data from fertility and sterility and A SRM, it, it shows support for these DUO STEM [00:22:00] protocols, saying that if patients don't have that great quality of eggs or if they have a very low number, maybe they'd benefit from starting the meds earlier and recruiting follicles.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** A little bit earlier. Um, so we've seen positive results so far. A lot of work to be done in terms of really understanding it. Um, and of course, as a new attending, I have a lot more experience to kind of build on. Um, but I, I have seen success from it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's fascinating. Are there any other new technologies, like new add-ons, um, that you've seen, that you've found to be really cool or interesting? 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think the biggest thing, actually, kind of going back to our whole topic for today is fertility preservation cancer patients. One of the biggest things that I've learned recently is that we used to start fertility, um, patients. You know, only in the beginning of the cycle days, two or three is technically like when most.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Most clinics, um, start patients, but for our cancer patients, sometimes you don't have that time. You don't wanna wait a full month to [00:23:00] restart, um, your, you know, your menstrual cycle and then do the fertility preservation and then delay chemotherapy a full month. So we started doing what we call random starts.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So you basically start a patient whenever they come in. You know, it could be the day after your consultation, the day of your consultation. I've kind of seen all of the above. Um, and we've seen really good success with random starts, per se. Um, and we've been doing a lot more of that, where it's not as dependent on where you're at in your cycle.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, obviously there's a difference in outcomes. You might not be a great candidate for it, so definitely it's worth talking to your doctor about it. But it kind of gives relief to our cancer patients where if you have a new cancer diagnosis and you're like, oh, I just finished my period, like, I can't even start a cycle until next month.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's not always true. Um, so it's always worth it to go into see a fertility specialist and just get, you know, get the data that you need right away, and then you can make a decision later on.

**Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. Um, Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** and I wanted to kind of cover a lot of different topics 'cause I know that [00:24:00] some people are gonna wanna hear what you have to say that don't necessarily, or, uh, have cancer. But it is important. I, I think that, you know, if you get to thirties and you haven't gotten married or you don't have a partner, I think it's really important to preserve your fertility in general. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** important thing. And then if you were going through a cancer diagnosis and you decided to preserve your fertility, um, guess more for women because they're eventually going to be thinking about transfers after they go through treatment. So what are some of the things that they would need to consider as far as that goes?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Like after the 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** then they go through the cancer treatments. Um, and then what, how long should they 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah. Like what does it look like? So I've had patients that come back, you know, in my fellowship training I did a, a couple research projects on patients that came back to pursue an embryo transfer, um, after chemotherapy agent. And basically compared them to how they did, um, [00:25:00] compared to patients that didn't have cancer and just froze their embryos or froze their eggs and then came back to pursue a transfer and.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I think the, the most reassuring thing from the preliminary data that we have is saying that there's no difference in pregnancy rates and no difference in life birth, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** of whether they had chemotherapy or not. After freezing those eggs and going through fertility preservation. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Amazing. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, in terms of where your body needs to be, I think the oncologist, we, we wait for their green light.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** We wait for their signal to say, you know, she's safe to carry a pregnancy. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** And then once we do that, we basically treat you like any other patient. So if you're coming in for a cycle, if you're having periods, then it's reasonable to try a natural cycle protocol, wait for your body to naturally ovulate an egg.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** And instead of obviously hoping that egg will fertilize, we, um, use a corpus luteum. We use the progesterone from the corpus luteum to really support this embryo being implanted into the uterus. Um. Yeah. [00:26:00] And then there's also another side. I mean, some patients don't get their periods back and they always ask like, what if I never get my period back?

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** What if I'm just like in menopause because of the chemotherapy agents? And for that, we can start you on a synthetic protocol or basically an estrogen dependent protocol where you take an estrogen pill for a certain number of days. We monitor your lining, then we start progesterone, um, to support your hormones from that perspective instead of relying on your ovaries to release the progesterone that they need, um, and then doing the embryo transfer a few, few days after progesterone starts.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So there's definitely different protocols depending on where your menstrual health is at after the chemotherapy or after the cancer treatment. Um, but it's important to kind of just know that. That there's options. It doesn't mean that it's the end of the road if you all of a sudden stop getting your period.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. I mean, 'cause you, technically speaking, you can really control a lot of that. More so for transfers 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yep.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Retrievals really is kind of like what [00:27:00] eggs you have, what the quality is. But people can be in complete menopause and you guys can still control their cycles for transfer, which is kind of. A huge difference 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** in the 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** interesting. Any other, um, new, new things that you're, you guys are excited about? I always like to hear about like the new and upcoming things 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** actually before, which I thought was fascinating. Yeah. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I feel like there's always like updates and, and new data and things like that coming out, but just know, I think it's important for patients to know, like we're constantly, we're, the reason I chose to even pursue this field was because it's new. Right. There's something that we are discovering every day, every year, and that's what makes our, our conferences so important to attend, um, to really just stay up to date.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, but we are, uh, constantly updating our embryology standards, the way we thaw our eggs, and the success rate associated with a thaw and [00:28:00] how we treat our embryos and the media that we use, right? Like, so we're really thinking about the basic science perspective every single day, and that's what makes this field so unique.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It is really awesome. And so do you guys specialize specifically on, um. Egg freezing and, and I mean specific fertility preservation in patients that do that have cancer that are going through treatments, do you guys specialize specifically in that? I mean, I know you do range 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. Yeah, because it's such a small community, we all have our own niches and we all kind of have our own interests and 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** no like specific training. There are a couple courses that you take that I took in in training as well, just to kind of understand what it sounds like to, I. Council of fertility preservation, patient with and without cancer.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Um, and then, you know, you kind of just learn by experience and you form a niche for something that you're passionate about. 'cause that's what makes you, you know, really thorough in, in your treatment. [00:29:00] So that's one of my interests. Um, and, but I would say, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** training for that. It's just like 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** just know how to treat that in 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** especially if you're interested in doing that. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Exactly. That's exactly right. It's kind of, it just comes with the experience comes with your mentors and who you're surrounded by, and everyone kind of helps each other get to that point. But there are several specialists in our practice at RMA that specialize specifically in fertility preservation in cancer patients.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So we have a close communication with our oncologist and they know who to refer to within the practice because everyone has their own little interests. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Amazing. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Um, definitely. I, like I said, I really enjoy picking your brain because it's a lot of fun for me. I, I do 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Totally. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** acupuncture, so 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** and I, I think that it's just so crazy that our fields don't work together. I mean, we kind of do, but I think, I just feel like it would be so great 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** exactly.[00:30:00] 

**Michelle Oravitz:** the expertise because you guys have immense. Benefits like in, in, uh, technology and incredible innovations and, and then the natural aspect of really understanding the, the body. And I, I just think that it would work so amazing together if it was more of like a thing. 'cause it, I know in China they actually combine the two 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** eastern. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah, I mean I think that that's so important and there is data that shows, you know, there's actually a recent study that came out just a few weeks ago on the benefits of acupuncture for fertility patients. And we know that, I mean, I recommend it to all of my patients, specifically the day of the embryo transfer.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** We, luckily, we offer it on site at RMA and we have acupuncturists that come in and, and do a session before and after the embryo transfer, and I think. A lot of that is targeted towards stress relief. But I also think that holistically it's important to feel at your best when we're doing something that's so crucial to your, to your health.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So to really focus on the diet, focus on stress relief, [00:31:00] focus on meditation, yoga, whatever it takes to get to your best wellbeing when you're going through fertility treatments, um, is so important. So I appreciate 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** like you that really specialize in the other side of. Of this, because I do consider it still part of the holistic medicine that we need to really maximize success for our patients.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** Jane, this is such a pleasure Of talking to you. You've given us some, so much great information and we've definitely dived into a, do a topic that I don't typically, I haven't yet spoken about. But, um, that being said, it's such an important topic to talk about. And thank you so much for coming on today.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** course.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I get off, how can people find you? 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** That's a great question. So I have, um, a social media page. I, it's called Expert nc. So like EGG, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** I 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** um, expert nc. Try, tried to make it a little bit humorous. Um, but I'm all over social [00:32:00] media and would love to hear from anyone that is listening. I, you know, every, every day I get different, um, dms and I'm happy to respond.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** I love hearing about everyone else's. Stories and things like that. Um, so that is kind of my main, main social media platform. Um, and then through like RMA and Reproductive Medical Associates, we also have a YouTube channel. We have an Instagram page, um, of our office available, um, as well that is public.

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** So you can find us pretty easily if you just kind of hit Google. But um, yeah, I'm kind of developing my social media platform as the expert and I hope it grows. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Love it. Great. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Yeah. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** was such a pleasure talking to you. Thank you. so much

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Thank you.

**Michelle Oravitz:** today. 

**Dr. Nirali Jain:** Of course. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:33:00] 

 

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into a powerful and often overlooked connection in reproductive health, the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

While many approaches to managing endometriosis focus on supplements, surgery, or hormonal therapies, few consider the role of the vagus nerve in regulating inflammation, digestion, and nervous system balance. In this episode, I break down how vagal tone directly influences endo symptoms, and why it could be the missing piece in your healing journey.

I also share practical and accessible tools to stimulate vagal tone, from breathwork and cold exposure to acupuncture and mindfulness techniques. Whether you have endometriosis or are simply looking to support your fertility naturally, this episode offers actionable insights to help you regulate your body’s stress response and boost overall well-being.

Key Takeaways: 

• Endometriosis is not just a hormonal issue—it’s also tied to inflammation, gut health, and nervous system function.

• Research shows women with endometriosis often have lower vagal tone, which can worsen symptoms.

• Improving vagal tone can reduce inflammation and support digestion, egg quality, and hormonal balance.

• Simple practices like belly breathing, humming, and ear massage can stimulate the vagus nerve.

• Heart rate variability (HRV) is a useful tool for tracking nervous system health and vagal tone.

 

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. --- Transcript:

Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus.

The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times. On the bladder or the intestines, if it's really, really severe each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together.

So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well.

This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So it's really fascinating.

It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this. And if you wanna find out more, stay tuned.

Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

/

Michelle Oravitz: Episode number 337 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're diving into a powerful and often overlooked connection when it comes to reproductive health and specifically with endometriosis. And this is the link between endometriosis and vagal tone.

So that is definitely something that I haven't heard of originally when I first got into this work, and it's definitely something that you don't really see much out there. So endometriosis is a chronic inflammatory condition where tissues similar to the lining of the uterus. Called the endometrium grow outside of the uterus.

The tissue can be found on ovaries, fallopian tubes, and outer surfaces of the uterus, and even at times on the bladder or the intestines if it's really, really severe. Each month, just like normal, you shed the [00:01:00] uterine lining and misplaced tissue responds to those hormonal changes. So this can cause a lot of pain and it can also lead to inflammation scarring and the formation of adhesions, which are bands of scar tissues that can cause organs to stick together.

So some of the common symptoms include chronic pelvic pain, painful periods, so you can really feel severe pain where it's to the point where you can't really function when you're getting your period. It can also happen to increase pain during sex, and many times it is linked to a lot of digestive imbalances and microbiome imbalances as well.

This can often cause issues. Also trying to conceive, in many cases people might need surgery. There are many different things that people can do. Of course there are supplements that people can take. And today I'm gonna talk more about the connection between the [00:02:00] vagal tone and endometriosis. So. It's really fascinating.

It's not something that you'll find often, but I'm very excited to share this and if you wanna find out more, stay tuned. 

So now that I mentioned what endometriosis is and really the condition and how it can impact your fertility health, I'm gonna also talk about vagal tone and really what the connection is between the vagal tone and endometriosis. If you heard some of my earlier episodes, you'll know that I talk a lot about the vagus nerve and about how the nervous system is so impactful when it comes to reproductive health.

It's gotten to the point where that has become my [00:03:00] obsession as a fertility practitioner. It is so important and it really explains the yin and the yang process and really how the body's able to get into a homeostasis and regulate itself. And it's so pivotal when it comes to fertility health. So the vagus nerve is a cranial nerve, and it's the largest cranial nerve in the body, but it plays an incredibly important role.

And I've mentioned this before, but I'm gonna mention it again in case you haven't seen it before. What it does is it actually communicates with the enteric nervous system which is your digestive nervous system, and it's , hundreds of millions of neurons that go throughout your whole digestive process.

And it can be one of the causes for people having issues with digestion when there's a low vagal tone. Because it is so impactful when it comes to digestion, and one of the things that Vagus nerve does is that it impacts the parasympathetic or rest and digest [00:04:00] aspect of the body. So when your body is in parasympathetic, that is the optimal time to digest food, and it can also cause a more.

Calm state of mind where your body is not in fight or flight, but it's more regenerative. So when it is in fight or flight, it's a little bit more of a sympathetic response. Now, there's nothing wrong with being in the sympathetic response. It's not like the bad state to be in. It's actually part of our nervous system and part of the autonomic nervous system, which composes of both the sympathetic and the parasympathetic.

But when it becomes too chronic, then it can cause a lot of different problems, and the body gets into a more survival state. So vagal tone basically refers to the vagus nerve's ability to function. So the stronger it is, the stronger it functions, the stronger the vagal tone. One of the ways that you can actually measure vagal tone is through something called heart rate variability, HRV, [00:05:00] and you can see many different apps, many different devices that actually measure that.

And HeartMath Institute also discusses a lot about that, and they talk about the heart brain coherence, and they look at. Heart rate variability and vagal tone. And there was actually certain types of exercises, , that you can do to actually increase vagal tone and increase heart rate variability and also increase.

Just by doing so, heart, brain coherence. So the higher the heart brain coherence and the higher the heart rate variability, the more calm we feel, the better state that we have. And apparently in conditions of endometriosis, the vagal tone. Is actually lower. So one of the things that I would definitely suggest if you do have endometriosis is to improve that vagal tone.

And I'm gonna be discussing many, many different ways to do that. So as we know with endometriosis, one of the things that it's linked to is [00:06:00] digestive issues. And the higher the vagal tone and the better the biggest nerve is functioning, the better it can talk to and basically communicate with the enteric nervous system, which is really your.

Digestive nervous system. And so we know that when we stimulate the vagus nerve, it can actually improve your digestive system. And when that happens, you're not only improving your ability to take in nutrients, but you're also decreasing the inflammation in the body, which is really pivotal when it comes to not just endometriosis, but egg quality and overall.

Fertility health. So this is something that anybody who's going through the fertility journey, male or female, can benefit from regardless if you have endometriosis or not. So just to kind of go back on the endometriosis topic, one of the ways really the only true way that you can know if you have endometriosis is by getting [00:07:00] a laparoscopy.

It is a surgery, so I'm not saying to go and do that. However, if you suspect that you might have endometriosis based on inflammation, gut imbalance, really strong menstrual pain, pain with periods and kind of lower back pain around that time, then you could still do this because you're gonna benefit from it anyway.

So I would go and talk to your doctor if you do suspect that you have endometriosis to get your options. So besides looking at heart rate variability, you may kind of realize if your heart rate variability is high or your vagal tone is high based on how well you get back from really stressful situations.

So if you are the type of person that. Gets anxious pretty easily. Startles really easily has like an off nervous system, gets really nervous around people. That's okay to a certain extent, if it's not [00:08:00]chronic, if it's not something that's really impacting your life. But if it is impacting your life and it's something that happens and when you get out of those environments that trigger that.

You continue feeling like that, that may mean that you have a lower vagal tone, which means that you're not able to adapt from one state of stress to a more calm state of your nervous system. So while that doesn't confirm heart rate variability, and ultimately the best thing to do is really to measure it, and you can measure it with many devices like even, or ring, you know, there's many devices that actually track your body and your heart rate variability.

And that would be the ultimate way to confirm it, but there are definitely symptoms that you can feel as well. So studies do confirm that women have a lower vagal tone if they have endometriosis, and that a lower vagal tone is also linked with higher inflammatory conditions. , some of the things in life that can impact [00:09:00] vagal tone really do have to do with high stress.

So if you're constantly exposed to high stress in your life, that can impact your vagal tone. And also, I've mentioned this before, it's really important to know that if you do have high stress. It's not the end of the world if you have some stress, but high stress chronically can really impact your overall health and it can also throw off your nervous system balance.

So even if you have IBS or any kind of gut conditions or inflammation or bloating, I'll be covering things that will also benefit you as well. So what's pretty amazing is that there have been studies, actually animal studies that have shown that increasing that vagus nerve stimulation, which will improve the vagus nerve function has been shown to decrease lesions in animals of endometriosis.

This is thought to be because vagus [00:10:00] nerve stimulation can regulate and decrease inflammatory markers in the body. So I'm gonna cover a few ways that you can stimulate your vagus nerve overall. I. So breath work is amazing and it works with the diaphragm, especially belly breath. So as a child, you probably knew how to breathe. You'll see babies breathe from their bellies because that belly breath is actually the way we're supposed to breathe.

But as we get older, we actually learn habits that are not really great for breathing. So belly breath is really good. So you could put your hand right underneath your. Ribs, which is where your diaphragm is, and start to use that, really the diaphragm as a muscle and breathe in and out and do this a couple of times a day to retrain yourself.

To breathe from the belly. I remember not doing that. And then years ago, learning and retraining myself to the point where it became unconscious and I was just a [00:11:00] belly breather. And it really impacted how I felt in general because I used to have generalized social anxiety. And I remember going in for body work.

A massage and the woman said, oh, you're a belly breather. So it, it is something that I was like, oh, I'm so happy. I'm so proud of myself that I actually trained myself. I wasn't even focusing on trying, and she noticed it. So it is something that you can train yourself. It's a habit that we have. It becomes unconscious.

So just like a good habit can become unconscious, a bad habit can become unconscious, but you can also change that bad habit to a good unconscious habit. So I've talked about slow, deep breathing, but you can also do something called box breathing, which is inhale to four, hold to four, exhale to four, and then hold out to four.

And then you can slowly increase that with time. I remember when I used to teach Kundalini yoga, we had something called, it was like the meditation [00:12:00] aspect of the yoga training, and it was something called the 16 seconds.

 breath. We would breathe in so it's not quite the box. It would breathe in to 20, hold for 20, breathe out to 20 and that's 60 seconds.

And doing so really calms the mind. And of course you'd have to work yourself up to doing that and not do that right off the bat. 'cause it is very hard and it is a practice you have to build up to. So another thing that can help stimulate the biggest nerve is cold exposure. Now with Chinese medicine, you may have heard me say that it's not really great to have chronic cold exposure.

So I often tell people, keep your feet warm or put socks on and don't put your feet on cold tile. Now this is. A chronic thing, this is doing something day in and day out. And also we do have our first kidney point on the bottom of our feet. The kidneys are in charge of our reproductive health, so you don't want that coldness from the tile to come up from the feet [00:13:00] into the channels.

So this is why I say that for a day in and day out. But once in a while, you can give yourself a little cold exposure. Doing so, like maybe doing a quick cold shower once in a while is okay. Now, if you are, of course this isn't for everybody. If you are somebody who tends to be cold all the time, this may not be for you.

But what they do find is that that quick stress effect of the cold exposure, like even a cold plunge. Can actually stimulate the vagus nerve. So it's a quick stress response. And then the body goes from stress, which is the sympathetic to parasympathetic. It starts to stimulate that nervous system regulation.

Another thing that can really be beneficial is gargling or humming. And I personally love to ohm. If I feel really stressed, even if I'm driving, I just om or hum what humming does. Is, it actually slows down your breath. And you may have heard me say this before in [00:14:00] previous episodes, is that when you breathe slow and deep, you actually calm your nervous system.

So, and especially your exhale. So the longer your exhale, the calmer your nervous system, and the more it's gonna go into parasympathetic mode. So when you're inhaling and you're exhaling with a hum, it slows it down. It actually stops it from being cleared fast. Of course, meditation and mindfulness. Now, what meditation does is it really gets us to a state of receptivity and a state of listening.

When we're in meditation, we're paying attention to ourselves, even ourselves, when we're anxious or we're feeling uncomfortable. When you're feeling that sensation, it's almost like a somatic acknowledgement of your body sensation, so you're aware, you become more aware. Of what happens when you are feeling uncomfortable, and then having those times during the day is really beneficial for that mindfulness to increase.

Because the more [00:15:00] you give yourself opportunities to pay attention to yourself, your mind, your body, how it feels, the more mindful you become, the more you can get really tuned in with your nervous system. And that awareness has been shown to really improve your overall physiology, which in turn. Can help your nervous system regulation and your vagal tone.

And of course, one of my favorites is acupuncture. Acupuncture can help tremendously, and we actually have a bunch of points that I use often to stimulate the vagus nerve, and part of it is an ears. So another thing that I would suggest if you can't get to acupuncture is just massage your ears or even massage your feet.

Anything that really stimulates that calming effect. The ears are one of the ways that we can access the vagus nerve. So I hope you enjoyed this episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from this information. [00:16:00] It is information that you may not often hear. I haven't heard about it before until I stumbled upon it and I was like, Hmm, that's very interesting.

And then the more I learn about the nervous system, the more impacts I see that it has over reproductive health. So I hope this was beneficial for you and. If you ever have any questions, ideas, or thoughts for future episodes, you can always reach out to me and DM me on Instagram where I am very active and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility.

So thank you so much for tuning in, and I hope you have a beautiful day. So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners.

 

On this solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I explore one of the most underrated yet powerful organs in your fertility journey, the liver. From both a Chinese medicine and Western medicine perspective, the liver plays a pivotal role in hormone balance, detoxification, and emotional regulation. I break down the signs of liver qi stagnation (hello, PMS and irritability!), how stress directly impacts this organ’s ability to function, and why supporting your liver is essential for optimal fertility and menstrual health.

You’ll learn practical ways to give your liver the TLC it needs, from stress-reducing rituals to the best foods and herbs that support detoxification and hormone balance. Whether you’re trying to conceive naturally or going through IVF, this episode is packed with tips on how to nurture your body’s natural detox pathways and create a more fertile environment from within.

Key Takeaways: 

• The liver plays a crucial role in managing hormones, detoxifying the body, and supporting menstrual health.

• In Chinese medicine, liver qi stagnation often caused by stress is a major pattern that affects fertility.

• PMS symptoms like irritability, bloating, and breast tenderness can stem from blocked liver qi.

• Western medicine highlights the liver’s role in clearing excess estrogen, important for conditions like PCOS, endometriosis, and fibroids.

• Supporting the liver with stress management, acupuncture, breathwork, and liver-friendly foods can significantly enhance fertility outcomes.

 

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

---

Transcript:

Michelle Oravitz: [00:00:00] Episode number 336 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I am going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine, as well as how western medicine perceives it and understands it, and why it is really an important organ when it comes to your fertility health.

So stay tuned.

Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

/

Today I'm going to be talking about the liver when it comes to Chinese medicine and how it is perceived as a very important organ when it comes [00:01:00] to fertility, health and menstrual health.

And as we know, menstrual health is really the heartbeat of fertility health. Then also as it is seen through a Western medicine lens. I'm not a western medicine doctor, but there is a more conventional way of looking at the liver, which is a bit different as you'll see to how Chinese medicine perceives the liver.

So the liver's role according to Chinese medicine is to ensure the free flow of qi, which is life force vitality or sort of an energy, but it's way more than that.

also stores blood. And is really important to prepare the body right before a woman begins menstruation.

It is very much related to emotions, and its emotion is anger. I. So when the liver is stagnated and is not able to ensure the free flow [00:02:00] of QI in the body, it can cause stagnation. And one of the biggest things that causes liver chi stagnation is stress. So it's actually one of the most diagnosed condition and pattern liver tree stagnation of all patterns.

It is one of those things that a lot of people, and this actually reflects the state of the world today, because we just have so many demands and we're constantly being bombarded with information news. And the pace that we're going on is not a typical natural pace that we're used to or ancestors used to have, where we used to be a lot more connected with nature, which calms our nervous system and helps with stress.

So some of the common signs, and it could be some and not all, or you know, the, any one of these really. If you have a few or a number of these symptoms, it might be showing that you have [00:03:00] liver chase stagnation. So you may have noticed that at times when you feel really stressed, you hold a lot of tension in your upper shoulders.

That is actually a response to liver cheese stagnation. You may have also felt like you're sighing really strongly when you're stressed. That is liver cheese stagnation. It's a feeling of fullness in the chest where you feel like you need to blow off steam. I. If you felt really angry, and I mean really angry, that is definitely liberty stagnation.

Or if you're feeling more irritability, that comes and goes. That is also liberty stagnation. I.

Liver cheese stagnation can also impact PMS. So PMS really means premenstrual syndrome, so it could be an umbrella of many different things that can come up, and it doesn't necessarily have to be irritation. It could be other things as well. So one of those things are irritation [00:04:00] or fatigue or just really any symptoms that you have before your period.

Constipation, bloating. Breast tenderness, mood swings. So those are all things that can be really under the umbrella of PMS, really having any kind of even cramping before you get your period. What that shows is that there is energy that is stuck, and since the liver has an important role of storing the blood and preparing the body for the menstrual cycle, what happens is.

It also has a role for ensuring the free flow of qi, and when it is trying to do one thing, it's not, and it doesn't have as much energy to begin with, then it's not able to do all of its functions all at once. And of course, it becomes very busy. Right before a woman has her period, because it's preparing that, plus it's doing its regular job of ensuring free flow of qi.

[00:05:00] So when that free flow of QI is being backed up or stagnated from the tenseness of stress, then it's not able to do its job and therefore women will experience PMS symptoms.

And what happens now and what I see often in my practice is that. Women do have a lot of stress, so they may show up as having many different patterns at once. So stagnation is considered a full pattern, and then there's deficiency because sometimes a full pattern can actually cause deficiency because if something gets jammed up and blocked that being full, so it's more like a blockage.

It can cause the body to not get the nourishment and. Energy that it requires, so that a stagnation, so a full type pattern can cause a deficiency. And then sometimes a deficiency can cause a full pattern and sometimes can, and sometimes deficiency can cause a full pattern. And then what can happen too is when the cheek gets stagnated for a very long time.

It impacts like the next in [00:06:00] line, which is blood. And when blood gets stagnated, it can cause things like fibroids because then it becomes more of a mass. And so ultimately liver cheese stagnation is one part, but it can continue and progress to something way more severe. It can also impact endometriosis as well.

And then liver cheese stagnation can also impact the spleen. So the elements of the liver when it is too stagnated can actually what's called overact on the spleen. And the spleen in Chinese medicine is in charge of your digestion. So if you've ever been in a situation where you feel really stressed, some people will either wanna overeat and then some people won't be able to eat at all, and sometimes their stress will end up.

Being felt in the gut, and that is your liver overacting on your spleen and stomach, which is your digestive system in Chinese medicine.

so conventional medicine sees the liver as having a [00:07:00] very important role when it comes to detoxification of your body.

It really is the main organ, except of course there's other ones like your colon but the liver will detoxify a lot of chemicals and what happens often too is if your colon is backed up, it actually makes the job of the liver in cleansing your system harder. So in order to really take care of the liver, you don't just focus on the liver, you also focus on your gut health.

So as we're seeing both in conventional medicine and in and in Western medicine and in eastern medicine, the liver and digestive system do work hand in hand, even though they're two different systems in the body, but ultimately the whole body has many different systems that work like a symphony.

Now, how this relates to your menstrual cycle Is that one of the things that the liver does is remove excess [00:08:00] estrogen from the body, so it is important to remove excess estrogen. And nowadays we also have a lot of. Hormone mimicking chemicals like xenoestrogens, which are fake estrogens, that the body confuses for estrogens.

And ultimately, when we start to get something called estrogen dominance, it causes things like endometriosis and fibroids, many different conditions, and it can also throw off our estrogen progesterone balance. Then ultimately because hormones are this intricate, delicate symphony, it can impact your hormones as a whole.

This can also cause irregular cycles, which is obviously very important to regulate when you are trying to conceive.

The liver also has an important role in regulating glucose and insulin, which is really important for many [00:09:00] conditions like PCOS, which tend to have many, there's many different types of PCOS, but most of it, the majority tend to have a link with

insulin resistance, so that is really important as well.

Some things that people might feel when their liver is more sluggish is they will feel more sluggish and tired. They'll feel hormone fluctuations. they'll have more PMS, and they might even see some skin issues like acne where their body is trying to cleanse itself.

They might also feel bloated and constipated, and sometimes even might have a little more sensitivity in their right upper quadrant, which is the right section, right under the ribs.

Ultimately, you want your body to be free of toxins and you want the energy to flow in order to have an optimal menstruation for women and really have optimal fertility.

So there are definitely things that you can do to help your liver.

[00:10:00] One of the biggest things, as we mentioned before, is actually managing stress. So in Chinese medicine, we really don't see a difference between the body, the mind, and the spirit. And there are so many different aspects that come together to really create our health. And that is why our mind and how we feel and our emotions are just as intricate and just as important as really what we put into our bodies through food and how we move and our exercise and our sleep.

So all of those things really matter when it comes to your overall health and ultimately your fertility health.

So some ways you can manage stress is. talk to somebody when you have a lot going on. It's really important because we as humans are meant to connect with others and it actually feels good for us to connect with community. It's important, however, to find people that you feel safe with and not people that will make you feel worse [00:11:00] for feeling your feelings.

So it's important to have a safe space to talk and maybe perhaps a community. There are many different communities out there when it comes to fertility health and you can also find psychotherapists that's specifically work in the fertility category. So they really understand the stressors that come specifically from being on the fertility journey. So those are really great to seek out and there are many people that are professionals in that category. I.

Another thing that is super, super important, and it's something that I actually wanna do a whole other segment on, which is breath work. So through breath work, you can actually stimulate your vagus nerve and regulate your nervous system. So it's really, really important to learn how to breathe because through the breath, that is one of the easiest ways to truly communicate with the brain that you feel safe.

Then when you create a feeling of safety, your body will automatically feel at ease and it can let [00:12:00] go, and you'll also feel like you're thinking more clearly because when your liver is able to ensure that free flow of Qi, your body overall feels so much better.

Meditation. I am a huge fan, and that is something that I have been doing for many years and has completely changed my life, so I highly recommend getting into meditation. You can get into many different meditations, and one of the things if you're just getting started and you don't know much. Is something that I recommend often to my patients and my coaching clients is to look into, um, something called the Headspace series.

Headspace is an app, a meditation app, and there's a series on Netflix, and most everybody has Netflix. And they go through many different types of meditations. They explain exactly the science behind it and what those types of meditations do, and then at the end of each segment, they will cover and kind of guide you through that particular meditation that they spoke about.

And I highly recommend doing [00:13:00] that because then you can try out different forms of meditation. The two main forms are. Paying attention to your breath or repeating a mantra in your mind. And there are many specific mantras and a lot of 'em are seed mantras that you can find from Vedic traditions, which is ancient India.

And those work really amazingly.

And of course, acupuncture. I'm a huge fan. it changed my own life and it helped me so much and this is really what inspired me to do it myself and to go back to school for it. Acupuncture is amazing for relaxing, but it's also great for so many other things, but it also can help with moving that energy blockage.

So through acupuncture it ensures more free flow. And one of the things that I noticed when I first started acupuncture was that I came in for my periods. They did regulate and then I realized, hey, I'm a little less stressed at work. I feel a little better if somebody says something that's challenging for me to hear.

I felt better [00:14:00] and I was able to receive it better. So that was one of the things that I noticed, and it was probably because, and now I understand it better. My energy and my free flow of QI was much better since I was going to acupuncture. So that is something that I highly recommend. And then just to keep in mind, things like alcohol and caffeine do get filtered by the liver, so having too much caffeine and alcohol has contributed to higher incidences of inflammation and endometriosis, and also fibroids. So the reason being is because those are things that need to get filtered by the liver. If you're giving the liver more work to do and it's going to be taxing, then it is going to impact how it is able to do its job. You ultimately don't wanna give it more toxins to worry about. So it really is something that it needs to filter out. So one of the things that you could do if you suspect that you have a more sluggish liver, or you need to give it a little [00:15:00] more TLC, I would definitely either lower your intake of alcohol and caffeine, and ideally it would be best to eliminate it completely.

Similarly, you wanna avoid processed food that have ingredients that you cannot pronounce, all of those chemicals. You also wanna avoid environmental toxins, plastics, really things that will also contribute to a heavier load on the liver. You also want to ensure that you're getting proper sleep.

Not only is that going to help your nervous system, but it's also gonna regulate your body overall and your overall chi. It's also going to help the liver. So one of the things that the liver does, as I mentioned before in Chinese medicine, is it soars the blood. And I remember one of my teachers early on telling me.

Well, teaching the class that when you lay down, if you're really, really feeling tired and you feel really stressed, just laying down makes it easier for the liver to [00:16:00] store the blood because obviously you're not standing and you're laying. and by doing that, you're actually supporting the liver.

So even taking naps sometimes can really help.

There are definitely foods that can help, and cruciferous vegetables are amazing and these are really important, especially if you have endometriosis or fibroids. they specifically are really beneficial for the liver, but they're also great in eliminating toxins from your colon as well.

So cruciferous vegetables are broccoli, cauliflower, and brussel sprouts.

Other things that you can consider are dark leafy greens. And I would suggest cooking them slightly, not overcooking them, but those are actually really beneficial. And it's beneficial to cook because it can help your spleen digest it better.

Lemon water on an empty stomach, because in Chinese medicine, the taste.

Let me see.

Lemon water is amazing because also in Chinese medicine, the taste for and an Ayurveda, the taste for the liver is [00:17:00] sour. And sour tastes and bitter tastes also support detoxification of the liver, so bitter greens think about things like that that will also support the liver.

so examples of that are dandelion and turmeric And as far as herbal supplements, you may have heard of milk thistle. Sometimes they'll have a combination tincture that you'll find in health food stores of milk thistle and dandelion. And one of the things that I also wanna mention is that if you are going through IVF and what I typically will suggest to a lot of my clients Is to work on your liver or maybe have a little time in between treatments if possible, so that you're able to assist and maybe take those herbs like milk thistle and dandelion root, and then also something called sulforaphane, which is made from cruciferous vegetables, and it can also detoxify and support the liver.

It's important to give [00:18:00] yourself that extra support if you know that your livers already being bombarded with a lot of excess hormones, which happens with cycles. So it is nice to give yourself a little break afterwards where you're able to assist the body in flushing it out.

And magnesium is also a very key mineral to help support the liver's function.

so ultimately you gotta love your liver. I mean, it has an incredible, incredible role when it comes to your overall health and when it comes to your fertility health. So it's important not to bombard it and really kind of take it as a two step to support it with the right foods, to eliminate things out outside in your environment or even the things that you're eating to encourage a healthier, happier liver.

So I hope you enjoyed today's episode, and feel free to share this with anybody that you think can benefit from it. Thank you so much for tuning in [00:19:00] today, and I hope you have a beautiful day.[00:20:00] 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Jiaming Ju @kunhealth, a second-generation traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) practitioner and health economist who co-founded Kun Health with her father. From leading one of the world’s largest longevity data projects to creating personalised Chinese herbal formulations, Jiaming brings a rare and fascinating perspective to holistic fertility care.

We dive deep into the roots of Chinese medicine and its powerful role in treating unexplained infertility, recurrent miscarriage, and postpartum recovery. Jiaming shares why customized herbal medicine—rather than a one-size-fits-all approach—is key, and how stress, liver qi stagnation, and over-medicalisation can often stand in the way of conception. We also discuss the importance of preparing the body and mind for pregnancy, how men’s health is often overlooked in fertility journeys, and the practice of wu wei—doing nothing—as a healing principle.

This is an eye-opening and empowering conversation for anyone navigating fertility or seeking a deeper understanding of the interconnectedness of health, mindset, and tradition.

Key Takeaways: 

• Chinese herbal medicine offers a deeply personalized and effective approach to treating fertility challenges, especially unexplained infertility and miscarriage.

• Liver qi stagnation and chronic stress are common root causes in fertility struggles.

• True healing goes beyond quick fixes—it involves preparing the whole body and mind for pregnancy, not just aiming for a positive test.

• Partner health, especially sperm quality, is often under-acknowledged and under-tested in fertility journeys.

• Practicing wu wei—intentional rest and non-productivity—can help calm the nervous system and enhance reproductive health.

Guest Bio: Jiaming Ju is the co-founder of KUN Health, where she partners with her father to offer personalised Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) care rooted in decades of lineage and wisdom. Before stepping into the world of herbal medicine, Jiaming led one of the largest global data projects on aging, spanning from New York to Singapore. With a background in health economics and longevity research, she brings a unique perspective to healing—bridging ancient Chinese traditions with modern insights. Together with her father, she helps individuals restore balance, improve fertility, and honour the heritage of Chinese medicine through customised herbal formulations and deep one-on-one care. Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about KUN Health hereFollow Jiaming Ju in Instagram —------------- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ _____ Transcript:

**Michelle Oravitz:** [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast Jiaming. 

**Jiaming Ju:** Thank you for having me. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. I would love for you to share your background. I know you're second generation, um, traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, which is really cool. Um, I love the fact that you actually have your roots there and your father does too, and I feel like.

That kind of takes it to a whole other level when you're working and learning from your parents. So I'd love to hear your background and have you share it with the listeners.

**Jiaming Ju:** Uh, so I'm a health economist first. So I was in health, I was in economics basically for 10 years. Um, and. I think before Covid I was running one of the largest think tank on longevity, uh, data collecting in the world at the time in Singapore. Um, and then I came back to the States in 2019 and decided to [00:01:00] retrain for four years.

It takes four years in California. And then, um, that's when also around the same time I opened Quinn. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. So, um, do you Longevity? I think of longevity and I think about fertility. 'cause a lot of times when we treat fertility, we're actually doing a lot of anti-aging. Um, we don't call it that 'cause we're working on mitochondria and really kind of getting the health, um, of the eggs and the uterine lining.

So tell us about your experience with fertility and what you've, um, what you've seen. In practice.

**Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, I work with a lot of people who have unexplained infertility. That's actually an area that, um, that I work a lot in. And, uh, this applies to both men and women among my patients. So I will have. A lot of patients who, uh, you know, they probably had a failed, failed rounds of IVF. [00:02:00] Um, and then that's when we work together.

I also have a lot of patients, um, who have repetitive miscarriage, uh, which is increasingly, uh, common, unfortunately. And then I also work with a lot of women on postpartum, which is more on the traditional side, as you know, in Chinese medicine. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, and so I know that we often get asked this, and I get asked this too, but I love always hearing the different perspectives on Chinese medicine. To explain to people in layman terms, why does acupuncture and Chinese medicine, I know Chinese medicine's a big umbrella. Acupuncture is really one part. I think most people think just acupuncture, but of course there's MOA herbs.

I mean, there's so many different things. There's also auricular, you can get really detailed on that. So can you explain what Chinese medicine could do really to regulate periods, to regulate ovulation? Just kind of help fertility.[00:03:00] 

**Jiaming Ju:** Well, I mean, first off, I think I grew up in the Chinese medicine family business, so to me it's very bizarre when people separate them. Um, you 

**Michelle Oravitz:** the acupuncture and the herbs and the,

**Jiaming Ju:** treatment from the,

herbal treatment. However, I think, um, customized herbal formulation has always been the elitist form of Chinese medicine.

It takes a lot of family lineage. Um, you know, pre bottled stuff aside for the modern human really, you know, whether you have fertility issues or not is really that one has to take a one-on-one approach to effectively treat something that's very complex. So having said that, um, I only work at Quinn for customized herbal formulation, so we don't do, although I'm licensed, I don't do acupuncture, uh, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, got it. Oh, I didn't know that. I thought you did acupuncture as 

**Jiaming Ju:** no I don't. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, okay. 

**Jiaming Ju:** We have all of you guys who are. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** actually, um, I know in China they do separate it. A lot of times people will get really, really [00:04:00] focused on one aspect. 

**Jiaming Ju:** Um, yes and no. I think in if, because in China and Korea they have TCM hospitals, right? So you have different departments where post-stroke, you go first off to the acupuncture people, which is the physical therapy part of Chinese medicine. And then. Depending on the severity of the stroke, you likely will get customized herbal formulation on top of that.

Um, I usually say that, um, acupuncture is amazing, is like a great deep spring cl that everyone needs it often, um, customized herbal formulation and diagnosis is more like a renovation, so they're entirely different projects. I think when you consider a human as a house, right, you're building a house, you need, you have different needs.

Um, in terms of female, I think we go back to the topic. I always like to talk about how, uh, women are fundamentally very, very important in Chinese medicine [00:05:00] because Chinese historically are obsessed with babies. Um, so this is the reason why a long time ago in all these empress, like, you know, like palaces, you will have.

Uh, a whole college of hundreds of royal physicians, and they're all Chinese medicine doctors. And their goals are not only to keep, to make sure the emperor can live for as long as possible, is to make sure all these concubines can produce as many kids as possible. So this is why I think the, the practice, um, has a lot more interest in the history, right?

The history is being that. We love kids and you want, China has one of the largest population in the world throughout history and you know, so it has a lot of that. You want kids and you need to care about women's health. So in a nutshell, I really like what you mentioned before, like when I actively worked as a, basically a longevity economist and my job was to advise countries in terms of, um, you know, fertility policies, aging population, right?

How can you encourage, [00:06:00] and I often say that women's. Women friendly policies are essentially longevity policies. You don't have women giving birth to kids, then you won't have a, you know, sustainable population. This is one of the same. So I really liked you pointed that out. That is totally right. I think not many people think like that.

Um. And so in a nutshell, like there is the historical interest then that would mean that in terms of research, there is the interest in the research, there is interest in data, there is, uh, Chinese medicine has been around for 3000 years and gynecology in particular in that field has been around for 3000 years.

This is very different with how western medicine has developed. Right? Like c-section technique for example, was developed, I dunno, a hundred years ago, like it is very. It's, it is, it is. So it's really like not comparable in terms of history, even sheer patient number and uh, patient cases. So I think Chinese medicine really in many ways excel in understanding women's health [00:07:00] and fertility.

I. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. And I, I always say like with medicine, one of the key things that you wanna look at is how well does it age And Chinese medicine ages really well. So a lot of times you'll see new things, new pharmaceuticals, and then a couple years later you find out it's not as great and then something else comes out with Chinese medicine.

I mean, it looks at nature, it really looks at like the elements of nature. That is something that is consistent. It's just part of really understanding that and then understanding ourselves. So I think that that is so cool about Chinese medicine.

**Jiaming Ju:** Right. The internal is very much so the physical, right. I have, I'm sure you have too, a lot of patients who on the surface they're like. Really healthy. Uh, but they haven't had a period for three years. So, you know, this is, this is not, and then they will spend the money on Botox. But which then you're like, okay, you look good for maybe a [00:08:00] month, and then you have to do this again.

Right. It, it is very different perspective. I think, um, many people say that, you know, why do, for example, in the practice of, uh, postpartum recovery, right? I'm sure you see it, and I see it a lot from the practice where. People who don't have, who are not on top of their health condition, especially in terms of digestive health.

I'm more prone to have thyroid issues or, you know, uh, preeclampsia in the last trimester and then post burst. This doesn't only drag their health just downhill. And then also impact how you're going to have a second kid or a third kid if you want to. It really completely like, you know. Like it really completely wrecks your house in a ways that you didn't even see this coming.

And that is a completely different perspective, right? Because often I will have patients who say that, oh, you are the first person who listens. How do you know I have these issues? Before I even tell you, I. It is really patterns. And I go back because [00:09:00] I am a nerd and I am an economist. Like I go back to data collecting Chinese medicine like in my father's, you know, practice.

Like he will start seeing a kid at the age from the age of five and then she's, he sees the same kid when the kid is 35. You see a person's in a whole families right Conditions throughout their whole life, and That's The best possible data collection you can dream of, and you can think of. This is not just a, oh, here is some pills for antidepressant, for postpartum depression.

Like give a women a pill like that. They will still have gazillion other issues, like what does this solve? And you will hear often for people who have postpartum depression, for example, right? Like they will then be dependent on depre antidepressant for the rest of their life. Then one questions. What does that serve?

Right? Where does that put you as a human? Do you feel like you are out of control for your own health? Um, so Yeah. it's a different approach. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, completely. Uh, it's interesting you say about [00:10:00] antidepressants because I feel like it's almost, um, a screen in between me and the person. I feel like I'm not able to fully get through to the person with the treatments because there's something in the middle, in the way I. And um, and of course I don't tell them just stop because I know that that is a whole process.

They have to be under the care of a doctor and tell them how to come out of it, because it's not something that you can just suddenly take out. I often feel like that. And I'd much rather if I can just treat it with nothing else, it'll be a lot easier. And then another thing too is um, that I thought you said that was really interesting and true is, um, you know, I think a lot of times often people just want that positive pregnancy, but you talked about something that is actually crucial.

If people want a healthy pregnancy and then also healthy afterwards for more kids, you really have to think big picture and not just quick fix. And I [00:11:00] think that we're so conditioned for the quick fix that we don't think about the whole garden and really tending the soil. And I always think about it like that.

It's like, yeah, we could throw a seed in and maybe that's gonna sprout. But if we don't give it the conditions it needs, those roots aren't gonna go deep and it's not gonna be a sustainable, like rooted sprout, which I think similar with pregnancy, you want not just pregnancy, but you want a healthy pregnancy, and you also want a healthy mom and baby.

You need it all. It's not like you can have an unhealthy mom, healthy baby. You have to have the whole picture working together.

**Jiaming Ju:** I think that's why like many people getting on IVF, and if you consider it a percentage of success rate for IVF is actually not that high. Right? Um, and then everyone is, and a lot of people are disappointed because they feel like I paid all this money and I, I, I got it. Why is it not happening? I think first off is because we're all conditioned to think that pregnancy is such a simple thing, right?

You do it and you'll get [00:12:00] pregnant. Uh, the, in Chinese medicine we always say mental is the physical and vice versa. The impact of stress of our day-to-day demand, of being a modern human, whatever, whatever that means, has a huge number in other fertility potential, right? I often says to, I often say to my, uh, patients, um, and I say like, you know, often because. My patients might, in the middle of it, they're, they didn't come to see me For,

fertility, but like after they healed from like long covid or something, they're like, I want to have kids. You know? Now I can really think about it and I will usually say that, you know, definitely be careful with like when you wanna get pregnant, because the healthier you are, the fertile you are, the more fertile you are.

Often I think in this society where we talk about IVF technology, ever since it has been introduced, it has become a thing where people feel like, oh, so long as I do it right, I will, it will happen. And often people get very disappointed when [00:13:00] it doesn't happen. And I'm sure you see in your practice a a lot in recent, in the past five years, you know the, there is an increasing percentage of people who have to DOIs.

IVF like twice or three times and still maybe without success. Right? Um, so I think there is a lot of, um, a lot to be said about looking at fertility, not just as a functionality that you as a woman or you as a human will just somehow have, but it's really about your overall health, right? Like, and I often talk to people who have repetitive miscarriage.

I'm like, your digestive health is everything. Who is gonna carry the baby is gonna be you. Now, if you are having, already having like nausea, dry gagging, like five times a day, even when you're not pregnant, your chances of basically having repetitive miscarriage is probably quite high, right? So we have to fix what's, what is the fundamental thing.

It is. Not that let's have a kid, because often [00:14:00] I, um, and I very, I talk about this not very often. But I do treat kids, and you often see a lot of kids who have incredible intolerance for food early in age is due to the fact that mother had a very difficult pregnancy. 

Um, so this is very much so linked.

It's not, like you said, it's not like the mother has to be in perfect house. So you have a chance, the mother and father in perfect house. So you have a chance of this baby being in perfect house often, even if you could get pregnant, if you have a kid who has so many problems, um, in the first two or three years there, basically.

Um, you know, there was one time with a patron of mine who, when he came to see me, he was two and a half years old and he was basically deemed a failure to thrive because he couldn't gain weight and he was having leg diarrhea. Often. He was having crazy eczema. And then you find out the mom during [00:15:00] pregnancy and before pregnancy had a lot of issues.

So this is all interlinked. Yeah. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** it really is. Another thing I see often is people who do IVF and then they go to the doctor and the doctor says, well, you barely have anything. You really need to start immediately. And I always encourage them, spend a little time prote, you know, preparing yourself if they've never, if they haven't come to me and I say, you're much better off waiting a few months.

Taking care of yourself, nourishing yourself, then doing IVF, then rushing into it. 'cause we're just looking at numbers and not kind of thinking about the quality and the preparation. 

**Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. '

**Michelle Oravitz:** cause in three months, it's not like you're gonna just lose everything. It's gonna just drop off a cliff. I mean, it's gonna be a few more months.

You're gonna be in much better position.

**Jiaming Ju:** I think that's totally true. I mean, in, in the old country, in East Asia, when you prepare for pregnancy, six months is very standard. That's when your partner quits smoking. They quit drinking, you know, you both eat [00:16:00] healthy. All of those stuff, Right. Um, and in this country we don't, it's almost like nobody necessarily prepare it.

Everyone just expect it would just happen until it doesn't happen after a while and suddenly it goes from, oh, I'm really casual about it, to now I'm in a panic. I must do IVF. Right? Um, and. A large, obviously unexplained infertility has a lot to do with, there are multiple root causes. One of the most common ones I have seen is actually intense liver g stagnation, where often a women consider themselves as a failure for not being able to get pregnant.

And the more you and I usually be able to tell with a patient when the first, for the first consultation, they'll say, I need to be pregnant by this date.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right.

**Jiaming Ju:** You're not a machine, we're not ai. It doesn't work like that. And often, I also, I don't know whether you experienced this in your practice as well, but I [00:17:00] often, uh, I always ask about better the partner, uh, or whoever, is the sperm donor better?

They have tested, oftentimes they have not. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I agree. 

**Jiaming Ju:** has done all the 

work then, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** I've seen that a lot and and sometimes the doctors don't even mention it. 

**Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is shocking to me because as we all know.

through research, uh, I believe it was the newest study done using collective data from Europe, uh, the sperm quality, both in terms of speed and quality per say, is 50% lower than like.

20, 30 years ago, and this is understandable due to drugs, due to not sleeping, due to not taking care of ourselves, Right. Due to stress. So why is it always that we're plowing the field of a women? And I always say this, I said the worst thing would be I'm p plowing your field. And the seed is subpar then.

So, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Correct. 

**Jiaming Ju:** right? Like, it's so, like, it's So easy. for the man to get checked. [00:18:00] It takes no time at all. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** I know.

**Jiaming Ju:** So like how is it in this, like, you know.

this is almost common sense both in terms of money, in terms of time, get your, get your sperm donor, you know, partner 

checked first. Um, it's, uh, It is interesting.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It is for sure. And then also, I mean it's, what's interesting is, yeah, you can get checked and everything looks normal and they're like, everything's perfect. But then the DNA might have something off, which. A normal analysis does not cover that. It's a special test that people take after, and usually they won't do that unless there were like miscarriages or there were failures with, um, the embryos to grow.

So they'll, they'll then they'll check the sperm. DNA fragmentation.

**Jiaming Ju:** It is always a little too late. And interestingly, um, I think even given my own experience, like I have two kids and they were born in different, two different countries, and I. Uh, [00:19:00] the second one who was born in the us I think the, the, even the md, the gynecologist like checkup is very minimum. There was, you know, like if you want like a, a better, clearer picture, you gotta pay more.

Like there is like, I think the, the, the standard of what women are provided in this country in terms of like basic, you know, um, like a, a basic kind of gynecological service, um, throughout is very low compared to other countries. Uh, but I mean that also creates a lot of. Tension and anxiety from first time moms.

Right. You don't know. And then you show up and then you said you're having some pain and doctor's like, it's okay. And then You know, there 

**Michelle Oravitz:** supported because you know, internally something's off. Like, you're like, I know something's off. I'm not crazy, but like, ah, you're fine. It's in your head. 

**Jiaming Ju:** right. And I think through and, and I think that's really the fundamental difference between [00:20:00] Chinese medicine and western medicine.

Right. Chinese medicine. This is why a lot of people ask me, they're like, you're a Columbia educated economist. You wrote for the Economist magazine, and then you know, you run Nobel Prize winner think tank like, but like Chinese medicine, it must be so different. It's actually not. Health economics is all about getting subjective health data from.

The person you interview, that's not so different from what, what we do in Chinese medicine. It's about you being the patient who knows best about your health, right? So if you say you have a pain, you have a pain, I'm, I'm don't live in your body. I don't get to judge you. I think this is also the reason why so many people feel heard.

Chinese medicine clinics, um, where they feel like you're just another pregnant person, like time is up, you are leaving. So it's um, it's a very different process. Yeah. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It is such a different process and I actually remember myself the first time I went to an [00:21:00] acupuncturist. This is like kind of what started it all. I was, uh, in a completely different career and I all I could get from every single doctor I went to was the birth control pills. And people hear hearing this, a lot of my listeners already know my story, but it was just basically I had irregular periods and that was the only answer I can get.

Never made sense to me on a intuitive sense. I was like, this just doesn't make sense. There's gotta be something. They're like, Nope, that's just your body. The only time you can have normal periods is if you take this. So I went through 12 years of that and the first time I met. My first doctor, Dr. Lee, who's from China, and he actually happened to specialize in gynecology.

He sat with me and one of the biggest takeaways, like the biggest impacts that it had, was him listening to me and asking me questions and showing me interest in every part of my life. And I was like, wow, this is crazy. This is so cool. I've never gotten this much attention from anybody [00:22:00] on like, what's going on in my body?

**Jiaming Ju:** right. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** And then, um, so that was really fascinating. Of course, that did change my period and I was resolved. I, I did the, you know, real raw herbals and the acupuncture. But then also, uh, looking back when I went to school, one of my teachers said, and it kind of like never left my mind that part of the healing, like the therapy starts before a needle goes in.

Just by listening and the second you feel heard, that by itself has an impact on your healing.

**Jiaming Ju:** Right. The, the physical is mental and that is, um, observed and in every single way we treat patients. I have, I would just say like 90% of my patients not only have like physical ailments, they have a lot of like mental. Concerns as well. Right. Um, and usually as both the, the [00:23:00] mental improved physical improvement and vice versa.

And this usually seems very, like, it's like a huge surprise or a big relief to the patients because they're like you. I mean, I, I didn't have to take antidepressant pill for this whole time. Right. Um, it's, I think is, is is, it is a very interesting. Myth we are told, um, and I, I don't mean this as a, as a, something like a, like I'm simply raising this as a question. How is it that we all come in different shape and form, race, color, experience, lifestyle, choices, all of that, and sexes. And then when you say, okay, someone is suppressed, you give everybody exactly the same. The only thing that varies is in the dosage.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yep.

**Jiaming Ju:** Isn't that weird? 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Jiaming Ju:** Right? Like it, and if you ask people who are depressed, um, I'll give you an example because I have a lot of A DHD patients, um, [00:24:00] especially, um, and The first thing I always ask when I examine the tongue, um, for A DHD patients is better.

You have anemia. And often they do. Um, but as we know in Chinese medicine, even if the lab says you don't have anemia, your tongue can tell me you have anemia. The, the chance of you being anemic and showing a DHD symptoms is very high. So is that actually a DHD or not? Oftentimes is actually not true. A DHD.

This is the reason why a lot of women who, uh, thought they have a DHD got on A DHD medication and then they crash when they don't take the medication, right, their energy crash, their focus crash. Then if, I mean, this is really a questions like if you take something, it works. The minute you stop, it doesn't work. Did they ever work? Right. It's almost 

**Michelle Oravitz:** it resolve it? It's not resolving, it's not a, a true solution. 

**Jiaming Ju:** Right. And then [00:25:00] when we talk about pregnancy, it's a similar process, Right. Is this just we implant a child in your body? Great. I'm glad technology works, but I think if I recall back in the days when, uh, IVF was invented, It was not supposed to be used so widely in today's environment.

It was for, I believe, for specific reason, Right.

There was a, a really strong infertility, I believe structurally for. Was it the researcher? We invented it. So like it was not supposed to be. It's the same thing with C-section. It was not supposed to be widely used. Like today's, I remember when I lived in Singapore, uh, C-section was so popular.

It was like, you can pick your date. It was a thing you can pick, pick a auspicious date to give birth to your child, and everyone goes to have a csection on the same day. It wasn't designed like that. It wasn't meant to be used like that. So I think. Modern human need of getting things done. [00:26:00] Like I need to have a child.

Here is the child, and here the child is delivered like this need of doing, boom, boom, boom. Just click on your life. To-do list is preventing us to see the garden you talked about is preventing us from really taking care of ourselves and really do the way that we are supposed to do that. Nature enables it because we probably wants too much.

I don't know. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's a too quick to, you know, quick fix. It's, it's going against the dao. It's going against that present moment, that being present because I, my theory or 'cause it wasn't really something that I specifically learned, but like, the more present you are, the more life force q you have because you, in this portal, your energy, your attention, like you said, no separation between the mind and the body.

So the more present we are, the more energy could be here. If our minds are here and then it's somewhere else, or our bodies are just here and our minds somewhere else, we're scattered all over the place. [00:27:00] And, uh, so let's actually go back 'cause I thought that was really interesting what you were saying about the liver chi, like really, really severe liver cheese stagnation.

Uh, for people listening, I've talked about the liver before, but liver cheese stagnation is severe stress. It's really being, to me it's kinda like being in major fight or flight chronically.

**Jiaming Ju:** Mm-hmm. And it is interesting because the liver store is the blood. So some people will say like, especially, it's funny because I lived in New York for a long time and I will always spot a patient from New York, uh, from a mile away because whenever you ask them like, are you stressed? They're like, no,

they look really stressed, but they're like, no, I can't handle it.

This is intense Stress. 

Handling it, you know, 

doesn't 

**Michelle Oravitz:** first of all, I lived in New York, so I know exactly what you're talking about. 'cause I'm a re recovering New Yorker. And then secondly ahead, I have a, like, I have a patient I could just picture in my head right now. I'm like, how are you doing? Everything's perfect.

Everything's fine. Sleep is good. Good, good, good. Great. You know, and I'm like, she, and, [00:28:00] and then like every needle that goes in, oh, oh, you know, she's.

**Jiaming Ju:** I think this is the hardest lesson in life. Um, I feel. Um, is to desire something and not getting it, like, either, not on your timeline or like not the way you want it. And I think, um, liver cheese stagnation is exactly that. I mean, traditionally we say, oh, it's anger is more manifested in road rage.

But really in today's society, I like to interpret liver cheese technician manifested in ways. That is like a mild, like a irritability, like a constant irritability. You're just waiting people to, to do something wrong and you are snap at them, right? We are all familiar with that kind 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's resistance. It's resistance to life. 

**Jiaming Ju:** frustration, right?

You're like constantly frustrated. Someone [00:29:00] else got a promotion, you think you are deserve the promotion, you're not seeing anything frustration. It is. What you think in your head you deserve. And the reality, and there is a gross, like mismatching here. Um, and I, every single time I have a patient who comes because of, you know, infertility issues and I will always spend so much time talking to them about their psychology, like mental health.

I, the way I do consultations. I have a huge part, at least I think. Total 30% of my total questions about the mental this matters in particular to people who have been having difficulty pregnant because, and I explain it to my patients like this, if you are so stagnant, if your body is so full of stagnation and cheat, where do you think a baby can sit?

The baby. The baby has nowhere to sit. There is no room for the child. And [00:30:00] that in a way. Is indeed the hardest lesson because to be pregnant, to be a parent to me personally, I think is the hardest thing in life is, is the uncertainty. You can do everything you do. Right, right. In, in parenthood. You don't know how it's gonna turn out, and this is, this process actually start from getting pregnant.

Like so many people feel so certain, oh, I just do it, you know, a couple of times. And during ovulation I will be pregnant. It doesn't work like that in Chinese medicine. You know, when it advocates for healthy pregnancy, it is the Jing, it is the Chi, it is the Ansys, it is the spirit and body of you and your partner. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yep.

**Jiaming Ju:** I'm not even a religious person, but I would say that is rather agno agno agnostic like process, right? Because it depends. You need a bit of luck For a [00:31:00] person who is intensely chi stagnant, they don't believe in luck. You, I'm, I don't know whether you've checked this with your patients, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** yeah. No, they, they put everything on their shoulders. They think that it's all up to them, and that's why they feel like they need to control, and it's being in that fight or flight because you're in survival mode. And when you're in survival mode, there's not plenty to go around. You need to scrounge and you need to work, and you need to fight to get whatever you need.

And that's, um, that's ultimately, you know, from an observer's perspective. Yeah, that's what I see.

**Jiaming Ju:** Right. And it is, you will see whenever that happens, you know, it's almost like you as a provider, you are being told like. This is the only thing you're doing. You're, you're giving me a child and then like, this is never gonna work. This is never gonna work because liver cheese stagnation. Really, I feel like clinically is one of the major reasons for unexplained fertility.

And that in turn frustrates the person even more because you're telling them structurally there is nothing wrong, [00:32:00] but they just cannot get pregnant no matter what they do. Right. Um, so this is already a deeply frustrating process and telling them that, leave it to. Just follow the protocol and leave it to fate.

And you, I will always notice that 50, not 50%, like you always have like 20% of people or 30% of people who are just not, they'll ask you like, what are the best thing I can eat to make this happen faster? Right? Like, what, what is, um, you're going against what you, you know, you're, you're doing exactly the opposite of what you're supposed to.

Um, but that is hard. I think 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It is hard. Yeah. It, it's, it's one of those things that is often missed and I, I, I actually wrote a book about that. 'cause in the book I don't give any diet tips or anything. Like, I'm like, that's not what's needed. Because everybody can look up like the best diet and there's plenty of great books about what can help.

And of course everybody's different and, you know, really understanding kind of your own sensitivities and et cetera. But. [00:33:00] My point is, is that many times people going through the fertility journey are actually very smart. They're very educated, and they educate themselves on. Supplements and what to do.

And so they're, they, they have that down, but that's not what it's about. I mean, it's about also the nervous system and I, I say the nervous system 'cause it's more late layman terms, but it's ultimately what the QI does. Like the QI needs to move and to flow. And if we're in this fight or flight, it's stagnates.

And so you see that often?

**Jiaming Ju:** I think that's really true because it is really about the difficult, the most difficult thing in life is to dive into uncertainty. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.

**Jiaming Ju:** You have two types of people who, well, you have three types. One type who just like go with the flow, right? Nothing wrong with that. You have one type who always wanna get ahead before everybody else.

They always wanna know everything that's supposed to be done, it comes to being pregnant, having a healthy delivery, [00:34:00] that's actually not how it works. And I think that's, you gotta have a openness. To say, I'm going to dive into this uncertainty because you know what, when a baby is here, when you have to raise this child, right, um, you're gonna need that when they start going to school or even when you homeschool them.

It doesn't matter. Like you cannot control everything. And I think that is a very important thing that, uh, really starts even during pregnancy preparation. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** You know, I will say it's kind of like meeting the love of your life 

**Jiaming Ju:** Right, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** and you're not like, you are gonna be the one that I marry. You know, you can't, you, it doesn't work like that. Then the person's gonna wanna run, run away. 

**Jiaming Ju:** right. you.

can't just come with your list and be like, well, You check every single list here. Right. Um. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** it's gotta be a little more romantic and have those, you know, moments of quiet and silence and, and kind of have this dance [00:35:00] happen.

**Jiaming Ju:** Yeah.

But you know, I, I think the world has in increasingly, has increasingly become a place where. People want bandage solutions. And I think that where, uh, the economy, if you're looking at some like rising industries, that that's what it gives like, right? A product. This is especially the case in America where it's all about something has a product, right?

Like what is the one-off solution you could give to that? But things where humans have been doing for centuries, like procreation. Defies the odd of that, no matter how many one-off Band-aid solutions you're gonna have, it's not going to click. And I keep telling this to all my patients who not only just for fertility, but for every odd syndromes under sun, as I have a lot of patients who have very difficult, complex disorders, [00:36:00] is that. When you commit to something that is trying to get pregnant or trying to get better, it's like when you go to a Taoist pimple or you go to any church or any religious place you go and you put a slice of your peace of your heart and peace of your mind there because you are really committed right in that given moment.

And that's all I'm asking for as a provider. Um, I always don't always go into it with. But what about this? What about this? What about this? Like, why don't we settle this one first? Um, so, you know, talk about nervous system. You can come down first. Otherwise your nervous system is all over the place where you are like, you're not doing anything like, you know, fully.

So. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** And what other suggestions do you ever give people, um, suggestions that they could do outside of the. What you're helping [00:37:00] them with. Because I would typically say even like you can come in, do the acupuncture, even take the herbs and supplements. But if you're going back and having a crazy stressful time, then it's going to pretty much negate a lot of what we did.

So I'll suggest things even like rounding or spending a little time in the morning of silence or peace just to kind of get themselves into a partnership really with me on their health.

**Jiaming Ju:** Um. We have a 16 page behavior report that we customize for every single new patient, um, that I will hold 'em to it. That includes 

nutrition and also lifestyle tips for people who try to get pregnant specifically. Um, I give, like, I consider this not as tips. I consider this as just like you need to do it is to get your [00:38:00] husband or your partner or whoever donates the sperm tested as soon as possible and making sure they're not drinking like six.

Bottles of beer a day. Like, you know, like if you're in this like, you know, situation prep, pre uh, preparing for pregnancy, they should too. Um, and I usually advocate for morning intercourse rather than night intercourse. During ovulation to increase the chances. Um, and there are a bunch of specific ones. I usually give like on a patient to patient base, but I also will tell people to, um, spend at least one or two hours of, of a day to practice the Daoist principle of Uwe.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I love that. That's my favorite, by the way. 

**Jiaming Ju:** and I, you know, your New York patients will be like, no. But like, um, can I actually go cycling during that time? I'm like, no. The point of Uwe is you do nothing productive. [00:39:00] Then they have, you put them in a conundrum because they're like, then I'm just wasting my time. I'm like, no. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Wait, so people who don't know wwe, can you explain.

**Jiaming Ju:** So WWE is the Daoist principle of doing nothing. Um, it's a practice I regularly issue to people to forcefully calm their mind. So I give a bunch of suggestions through what you can do for your wwe. Like for example, uh, you can knit, but not because. You're knitting for a nephew or something, you're learning to knit, not because you're good at it, it is because you want to.

So it's to completely deviate from a lifestyle where we are chasing daily achievement all the time, right? It's more about resting your body and mind and focus on what matters on the present, which traditionally you to think it doesn't matter. So one of my favorite thing, even when I lived in New York City, was to really sit in a random coffee shop and just sit there, read my book or like judge [00:40:00] people's sense of fashion.

So I will like people judge when I'm in the cafes. Like, what did you do during that time? Nothing. But I always feel like, great. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** But it's like effortless effort. You're still there. It's not like you're totally inactive. You're, you're still there, but you're like in this neutral flow 

state. 

**Jiaming Ju:** Right, and then that's very important because there is nothing more difficult to a person who tries to get pregnant than thinking they're losing time. They're being told that they're losing time. They're late by every possible doctor under the sun. But you know, that is a time, is a, being late or not is a relative concept, as we say in Chinese medicine, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's true.

**Jiaming Ju:** So oftentimes you'll see people like signing off for IVF, not because they're physical ready, It's because they are told they are short on time, right? You don't do this now, you can't do it in three months. But statistics don't work like that. Like you said, you know, [00:41:00] within three months, your body's not going to dramatically change.

You, you must well spend the time to take care of yourself, then really increase your chances rather than, I'm gonna dive into this when I'm super stressed. Um, pinning so much hope on this. Um, so yeah, again, I mean, I, I think that's really the thing, like having a child and being pregnant is not just something you must do in life.

It's a, it's more than that. It's a mild, it's, it's, um. It's a face in life. One doesn't have to have it, but if you do decide to have it, I, I really think that people need to take a broader view on it. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** 100%. I think that is so beautifully put because it is a big picture and it's um, you can't just take the part and then look at the part and say, okay, that's it. You have to look at like. How it interplays and works together as a [00:42:00] whole organism. And that's when you get the big picture. And, um, yeah. And I think about like, you know, the yin and the yang, you know, being too young all the time, you're gonna burn out the yin and that's ultimately the nervous system right there, having that balance.

**Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, exactly. I think the society demands us to constantly deliver. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.

**Jiaming Ju:** The question is, what are you delivering? There isn't a return policy for a parent once the child is here. You are responsible for them for life. Um, so this is not just, I'm just, I just wanna get pregnant. This is a how it's going to completely transform your life wrecking you because your identity will be rewritten the minute you are pregnant, uh, when you become a parent.

Um, and I think people need to probably, you know, take it, I always say like, take it more seriously, but [00:43:00] also take it less seriously. I. Because I think people take it really seriously on the, am I pregnant or not pregnant part, Right.

But that don't take that too seriously, but like people need to consider what that means.

The implication at your health more seriously. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. And so if people, and it's, it, it really helps to have somebody to work with because I think that. There's a lot of reminders that can be done from somebody who's looking at it more objectively and not in it because it's very hard to understand, um, what you're sharing if you're not working with somebody else.

And I think that that's like the benefit on top of obviously getting the therapy, but also getting, you know, the treatments and also. Getting that perspective because when you're too in it, it's very hard to decipher. So I think that that is very priceless. Um, so for people who want to work with you, what do you offer?

**Jiaming Ju:** [00:44:00] I think the, if you're interested in, and I always say this as a dare and those are kinds of my favorite tongue, tongue readings to do, is that people who say like, no, I won't tell you anything. I just give you my tongue, and then they're completely in shock when I spell out all your, their life secrets.

So I think That's the number one thing you can do. Um, and in these tongue readings, I also give three quick suggestions, but I give a very good overview of like what you're not telling me about what's happening, wizard Health. Um, and that's a very fun thing to do. 'cause everyone has a tongue, right? And tongue reading is one of the most traditional things we offer in Chinese medicine.

Uh, but usually the serious, more serious part. Is the one-on-one consultation with me online. And um, and then customized herbal formulation. I would say like 95% of my one-on-one patients on customized herbal formulation. And then. We do the monthly follow up for [00:45:00] that. And then there is also a bunch of digital small booklets, recipe books like that we, um, that I have written.

For example, I have a postpartum recipe booklet that I highly recommend for anybody who is pregnant. And you don't know what, what really you heard about this myth about Chinese women eating different things postpartum. You don't know what that is. Uh, I wrote. A 20 page I believe, recipe book that 

includes breakfast, lunch, and dinner and snack.

Uh, for that. So That's a lot of like self study resources as well. Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's great. Um, sounds awesome. And you do raw herbs. 

**Jiaming Ju:** no, I only do gran. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, granule, which is so easy, but it also is effective because it's easy to digest, easier 

**Jiaming Ju:** right. And everything is made to order. So we have patients from Scotland to, to Singapore. It's, it.

is we, so it's, uh, everything is made to order and I co-write a formula with my dad for every single [00:46:00] patient. So, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Fantastic. And how can people find you?

**Jiaming Ju:** Uh, you can follow us at Quinn House, KUN House. Uh, I believe we're on TikTok as well, but I never check TikTok.

I'm a little bit scared of TikTok, so, um, Instagram is my 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's funny, I never got into TikTok too. I just do reels on Instagram. I just love Instagram.

**Jiaming Ju:** Yeah, I think TikTok is a little bit of a wild scenario, but, um, yeah, Instagram is where I, I think do the most, so. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, it was such a pleasure talking to you. You sound like a wealth of knowledge and I love your perspective and really how you understand, um, really from diet and, and also herbals, which is an art in itself. So thank you so much for coming on today. It was such a pleasure talking to you. 

**Jiaming Ju:** you. [00:47:00] 

 

 

On today’s episode, I’m joined by Dr. Peter Martone @drsleepright, an educator, injury prevention specialist, and chiropractic expert who has spent the last 25 years transforming health by helping people sleep better through spinal alignment. After a personal injury led him to uncover a surprising link between poor sleep posture and chronic health issues, Dr. Martone developed what he calls the “Corrective Sleeping Position” a method that supports spinal health, optimises vagal tone, and enhances parasympathetic nervous system function.

We dive into how nervous system imbalances impact fertility, why improving sleep is about who you become, and how simple shifts in your sleep setup can profoundly change your energy, hormone regulation, and overall wellbeing. Dr. Martone also introduces his animal sleep avatar test and shares practical advice on how to align your body and mind for optimal healing, starting in bed!

 

Key Takeaways: 

• The autonomic nervous system plays a central role in fertility, especially the parasympathetic (rest and digest) system.

• Correct spinal alignment during sleep can reduce nerve interference and improve organ function, including reproductive health.

• Many fertility challenges can stem from imbalances in vagal tone and nervous system inhibition.

• Dr. Martone’s “Corrective Sleeping Position” helps improve heart rate variability and promotes deeper healing at night.

• Sleep isn’t just about rest—it's about becoming a better, more aligned version of yourself.

Guest Bio: Dr. Peter Martone @drsleepright, is an educator, injury prevention specialist, and patient care health practitioner with over 25 years of experience in improving biomechanics and overall wellbeing. As a chiropractor and exercise physiologist, he has long held the belief that spinal structure directly impacts the function of the central nervous system, and that interference in this system is often at the root of chronic health issues. Today, Dr. Martone uses this foundational principle to help people achieve W.A.Y. Better Sleep, a transformative approach that supports healing through sleep posture and nervous system alignment. His groundbreaking techniques have been featured on CBS, NBC, Fox News, and more than 50 international podcasts. Dr. Martone now travels the country teaching individuals how to reclaim their health, starting in bed. Websites/Social Media Links: Dr. Peter’s WebsiteFollow Dr. Peter on Instagram Check out Neck Nest here —-------------

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ Transcript:

[00:00:00] Episode number 334 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Peter Martone. Dr. Martone is an educator injury prevention specialist and patient care health practitioner who has been focused on improving patients biomechanics for over 25 years. During his private practice as a chiropractor and exercise physiologist, Dr.

Martone always believed that the structure of your spine affects the function of the central nervous system, and this interference is at the root cause of most of the chronic problems people face. Dr. Martone now uses this principle as the cornerstone to help people get WAY better sleep. His techniques have been featured on C-B-S-N-B-C, Fox News and over 50 international podcasts.

He currently travels the country teaching people how to regain their health in the bed by getting [00:01:00] way better sleep. 

Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Marone. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Thank you so much for having me. I can't wait to dive in.

Michelle Oravitz: Me too. So I'm really intrigued. We have not had a chiropractor yet on the show. However I love chiropractic work and I also believe. That it can help a lot with the nervous system. And I often talk about the nervous system and how that impacts fertility. So I'm really excited to have this conversation.

And before we get started, I would love for you to give us a bit about your background and how you got into the work that you do, and especially when it comes to [00:02:00] sleep. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Wow. That's like a, it's a big zigzag. A lot 

Michelle Oravitz: It always is. 

Dr. Peter Martone: we 

Michelle Oravitz: It always 

Dr. Peter Martone: wait. I never thought up. I never like, woke up one day and said, oh, you know what? I'm gonna be in the most exciting field of my life. I'm gonna be in the sleep industry. Like, it's so, it was like so boring. But you know, it, so what I was, I'm a chiropractor, I'm an exercise physiologist, a nutritionist.

I've always loved the to help people. Improve their function and quality of life by changing their lifestyle. So I was, I was, I was big on helping people, what's called balance, the autonomic nerve nervous system. So there's, in our, in our system, we have organs and our organs are typically not controlled by like the conscious nerves that controlled by like autopilot stuff, which is the sympathetics and the parasympathetics.

So what I found a long time ago is that most people when they have chronic illness or dysfunction. They have an imbalance within that autonomic nervous system. So I [00:03:00] spent a good part of my first 15 years in practice helping people balance their autonomic nervous system until finally, and I always had bad back, which isn't really what brought me to chiropractic. What brought me to chiropractic is I got adjusted once and my stomach problem went away, and, and I'm like. I'm a chiropractor, I have a bad spine, and I was in a little bit of an injury mountain biking, and I finally herniated my disc.

So I was in the emergency room. I'm sitting there saying, how can I come to this? I've been helping people with back pain and wellness, and I'm now hooked up on Dilaudid because I'm in the emergency room because I'm, I was just, my back finally failed. And in your own brain? at a subconscious level, I felt like I was a failure because I'm like, how can.

I not help myself, so not a really good place to be. And then, so out of big lows, a lot of times you can learn from those. And, and I have a very [00:04:00] competitive mind, so I'm like, I gotta figure this out. I have to figure out why I had disc issues and, back problems. So I started reviewing x-rays. I reviewed 3000 x-rays and I found a pattern.

And that pattern was I had loss of cervical curve in my neck. And, and due to an adaptation, which I found is that it, it adapts with a, what's called a SOAs, major muscle spasm in your lower back, and the SOAs attaches directly to a disc. So I'm like, holy Mac, maybe I had a neck issue, no pain in my neck.

Maybe I had neck issue all this time, and it was messing with my lower back. So I'm like, well, how do I fix that? I've been getting adjusted. I'm like, the only time I can do it is a one third of my life. I ba basically do nothing and that's sleeping. So I started to cha, I was always a side sleeper. I curled up in a ball and my back was always twisted.

I had shoulder issues and I'm like, you know what? I bet you it's alignment when I'm sleeping. So I started [00:05:00] to put pillows under my neck and I started to force myself to sleep in a specific position, which we now call the corrective sleeping position. Then once I started to. Have my patients sleep in those positions.

Now, their chronic issues I've been dealing with, they're needing me so much less because their body's healing really at night while they sleep, which now, hence now another 10 years later. I am in the sleep industry after 25 years of zigzag, right?

Michelle Oravitz: That's so interesting. And so how have you noticed that impact? Well, actually let's take it back to like why chiropractic works, not just for the spine. I think people think, just like you said, you went for for back pain or for the stomach pain, or you ended up getting your stomach issues resolved. People don't, may not realize that chiropractic work.

Can impact [00:06:00] internal organs, systems and other things other than just your back. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. So let's look at, so this is gonna be a really different way for people to think, okay, but I'm going to make it and break it down into a very simple analogy. If you go to into a room and there are lights in the room, and then you take the dimmer switch and you dim the switch down to 50%. Somebody walks into this room, they're like, wow, it's really, it's not light in this room.

Now what you would do is you go to the Dimmi switch and you turn it up. Well, now in our current paradigm, people don't even look at the dimmi switch as the problem. They look at the light bulb, which is the organ. Nobody looking at the nervous system going to that organ. They all look at the organ. So they'll put new bulbs in there.

They'll put a transformer in there that puts more energy at the bulb when. The pressure, the, the, the li the, the dim switch being down is an issue. [00:07:00] So the spine is basically your fuse panel to the body and, and it's set up where these nerves come out of these holes in the spine. And if the spine's out of alignment or your hips out of alignment or your neck's out of alignment and you have these curves, you're putting pressure on a nerve.

There's research that's been done. Pressure equal to the weight of a quarter on a nerve will cause a nerve to malfunction by 60%, leaving it only with 40% function. So think about that. If the nerve is only functioning at 40%, how can the organ be healthy? And nobody on the planet looks at that as cause of disease, except chiropractic.

Everybody looks at it like, oh, you just get your spine adjusted 'cause you're in pain. I was never in the industry for pain. And I tell my patients, listen, I'm a little different. I said, look, I wanna help you with the pain, but if you are walking with one shoe on and one shoe off, you're gonna have back pain.

If I just focus on [00:08:00] your back and I don't create it, don't fix the imbalance, then you're just gonna be dependent on what I do. And that's the same thing. Now, when we help our clients with chronic illness and fertility and breathing issues and digestion issues, the first thing we do is align the spine, turn up the dimmer switch.

Then we see what happens. Internal organs.

Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. And so what I know that obviously. Because I know in Chinese medicine there's so many different reasons that cause one thing, so we look at the root cause for fertility conditions. What have you seen so far? I. 

Dr. Peter Martone: That is so great. So that's a great question. Now when within our sleep system we the, the, I guess you can say the crust. That, that connects all the, all the other, like everybody give anything that most of the experts tell you, you can Google, right? Oh yeah. Room temperature and beds and all this stuff.

It's all [00:09:00] Googleable. But the crust that holds all of the, be the missing pieces, the crust, and that's, we live our life through our nervous system and everything we say, do function, feel, happens through that system. So when you look at fertility, don't look at it as the infertility, as the issue. That's the outcome.

Look at it as. What controls fertility? People would say hormones, right? What controls hormones? Nervous system. Okay. What specific nervous system? That nervous system is called the parasympathetic nervous system. The parasympathetic nervous system is your thrive nervous system verse, your survive nervous system, which is your sympathetics.

So you can either run from a tiger and you're in survive 'cause your body needs to get away from it. You can sleep and thrive. So our bodies thrive at night and survive during the day. So it needs to be a balance. The three systems that are controlled by your Thrive system. And when you have infertility, you have [00:10:00] an issue with all three of these systems.

It's immune system, it's digestive system. It's reproductive system, so anybody that has an issue with one or of them has an issue with all three of them because you have an issue with parasympathetic inhibition. So, so it's not that you're just all sympathetic dominant because you're, you know, you're, you're super excited, you're inhibited because you're dimmer switch is down 50% and nobody's addressing it.

So most of the time what we see with our, our patients that have infertility, they have issues at the atlas, which is right at the brainstem, and it's due to loss of function there, or it's down in the Coio plexus, which is in the, which is in the, in the, in the coic, which is in the pelvis. So a lot of times it's pain associated, but there's also digestion issues.

There's eczema, there's skin issues, there's all of these other issues. But all, all that's telling us is the nervous system imbalance.

Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. It's interesting that you pointed [00:11:00] behind the ears because that's where you can stimulate the vagus nerve. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Correct. That's, that is the reason why, 'cause it's true to the carotid sheath. There's three nerves that go through there. It's the vagus, the glossopharyngeal, and the spinal accessories. So, lot, lot of times if, if a, a woman has infertility, she has definitely a loss of cervical curve, but. Her hands might fall asleep or she has a thyroid issue also because of that forward posture, or she gets reflux because of the upper portion of the stomach is also addressed by the carina, which is, you know, the cough reflux

Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. And do you see this for men? Men as well? 

Dr. Peter Martone: I do, but a different manifestation of symptomatology. A lot of times that's gonna be a low testosterone. That's gonna be like especially with men with the prostate is a, is a big issue at that area, but men, women, some, a lot of times will have it. We're, we're seeing it now more than ever in women.

I have my own theories on it, actually. I believe it's covid [00:12:00] vaccine, but they we're seeing a lot of heart palpitations, so we're seeing a lot of imbalance within the arrhythmia of the heart. That's why I am I have these rings on. I always measure my heart rate variability and that's what 

Michelle Oravitz: Oh yeah. I love that. The HeartMath. 

Dr. Peter Martone: clients. Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, so, so talk about that. I talk about it a lot too, but I always like to get different perspectives. 'cause I feel like even if it's the same topic, if somebody else talks about it, you might get something different. So, 

Dr. Peter Martone: This is so great. So the, so just to understand what heart rate variability is, is your heart needs to beat. And when you're running from a tiger, your body wants a very rhythmic beat so that the muscle in the brain can really consistently know the amount of sugar that the organs are getting, right? So the, so when you're sympathetic dominant, which means you're in survival, you have a very rhythmic heart rate, which means if you, let's say, have a a heartbeat of 60 beats per minute, every second you have a beat.

And that's what [00:13:00] people think is good. That is really bad to have that chronically because you put the same stress on the heart and the heart will fail. So when you're, when you're in thrive or you're parasympathetically dominant, your body's ready for anything. So the heart rate is very in irregular interval.

So instead of every second, maybe it's 0.75 seconds. Then the next one is 1.1 second. Then the next one's 0.5 seconds. Then the next one's 0.8 seconds. So it's done.

So you're, you're spreading the stress around the heart, which is a very healthy thing to do for the heart. But what that's telling us is when you are, when your heart rate variability is high, your parasympathetic dominant. When your heart rate variability is low, you're sympathetic dominant. So most people that have dysfunction, especially in the, in the autonomic nervous system or in the parasympathetic nervous system like fertility, they're going to have low HRV readings because they're going to be [00:14:00] sympathetic dominant.

Whether it's due to parasympathetic inhibition because you're, you're turning, you're putting pressure at the brainstem on the vagus nerve, or it's due to you just so stressed that you never turn this on into weak muscle, whether it is, you can analyze that through these trackers and then, and then we can then, let's say meditate and then connect the subconscious brain to a scent every time you meditate and then take a heart rate variability reading.

Then know what improves your high rate variability during the day, then connect you to a scent any other time. That's a scent. So when you smell the scent, your HRV comes down and then you can start to retrain the 

Michelle Oravitz: It's an association. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yes.

Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting 'cause I've said that before. You know, that's what in India they used to put the incense on during meditation. So immediately when you smell it, it puts you in that state so that it's quicker to get into a deeper state of meditation. And it's kind of [00:15:00] interesting how really the heart becomes so adaptive when we're in this rest and digest mode.

The parasympathetic. And it's also more creative in a sense because it's not, it doesn't act predictably. It's creative based on the needs,

And that's 

Dr. Peter Martone: becomes creative when 

Michelle Oravitz: and your body becomes creative, 

Dr. Peter Martone: then yeah, the mind becomes creative because you're taking the blood from the, what I call the immature, ignorant child brain, right? Or the Yeah, the, the, the, the 

Michelle Oravitz: reptilian 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Reptilian brain. And it starts to transfer it to where really, where you can get true inspiration and innovation in, in, in, in that, in the back portion of the brain.

So you can, you can start to think better and consequently. You, we, my, my daughter's now working on one of my companies and she's like, dad, I don't care what's mindset mastery? Because we have five core elements of sleep. I'm like, honey, mind [00:16:00] mindset mastery is like everything, right? If you, if you can master your thoughts, remember thoughts, create an adaptation within the nervous system.

So if you want to. Be sympathetic, dominant, fair anxiety, financial stress, relationship, stress, hate, envy. Those are sympathetic emotions. If you want parasympathetic emotions, focus on gratitude, love, caring, prayer. Those are parasympathetic emotions. So if you can master the mind and focus the thought, which you can.

Then you can focus the neurology, which is the real step in bringing back control in chronic illness.

Michelle Oravitz: So fascinating. I love this topic and I love how you could look at it in so many different ways, but there's so many different schools of thought and they all kind of point to the same thing, even like ancient. Teachings and then now some of the current [00:17:00] research that's coming out. And it's fascinating because it really is something that can be measured, like you said, with the heart rate variability and also the heart brain coherence, and that they do actually communicate, you know, there's a communication between the two and the fact that people do have a choice in this, I think that that is often missed.

I think that people don't realize that they actually have a choice. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, and I think that that's, you know, that is a great. Way to say it, right? You do have a choice. And, and like I told my daughter, I'm like, you have a choice on what to think, right? And, and, and, and what we focus on is what we become. 

Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Peter Martone: When you are looking like, think about this. So I'm not, we haven't even talked about sleep.

I've only talked about my intention. My intention is balance, the autonomic nervous system and health. Sleep is, you can't just put your head on a pillow. Buy. Buy a new what? Buy a new pillow. Buy a new [00:18:00] bed, buy a new sleep supplement and get better sleep. So what we talk about is who do you have to become to do what you need to do during the day?

And then sleep is a byproduct of living a healthy life in our intention is everything. Our intention is balance in the nervous system. Yes, I wanna help you sleep, but I didn't enter the sleep industry to make you a better sleeper. I'm there now. I entered the sleep industry to allow you to become a healthier individual.

So who are you when you're waking up? I want that to be a better version of you, A more energetic version of you. So we have this animal sleep avatar test that we have people take. It's a free test. And what animal do you sleep like? And then based on what animal you sleep, like I can give you. The tips specific to how you sleep and tell you how you need to fall asleep because each animal needs to fall asleep differently.

Michelle Oravitz: That's fascinating. That's so, so I'd love to hear how you approach sleep altogether, like how [00:19:00] your method works to doing that. You'd mentioned obviously figuring out really how you sleep, what type of animal but how do you really help people? What are the different steps you take them through? 

Dr. Peter Martone: So the, the, so think about, think about the, let, let's look at sleep as an analogy. This is a analogy that we're actually putting into our way Better Sleep program now is think about it as a, a battery charger. Okay? First thing you do with the battery charger or a charger is you have set up. So first have to set it all up, plug it in.

You have to, you know, do a whole bunch of stuff to set up. Set up is how you fall asleep. Okay? I have three steps. It's called the triune of sleep, so we put people to sleep. Then we have the five core elements of sleep, which is when you're sleeping, are you waking up refreshed? How much. Is your energy being recharged?

Are you only recharge it from, you know, zero to 25%, [00:20:00] 25 to 50%, 50 to 75? Or are you waking up like me? You are freaking ready for the day because your battery is so full. So most of the time where, where it, it's too complicated to dive into the five core elements 'cause there's just so much. That you have to do.

It's, it's, it's, it's be, do, have, it's changing your life, eating right, being fit, and thinking well. So, so we, we have different roadmaps on every month. We change a different lifestyle habit to be, make somebody become healthier and then a better sleeper. But I think really where, where the most applicable advice I can give you right now is the setup in talking about what we call the triune of sleep.

This is what 99% of the people on the planet get wrong. And this is why really my first step was figuring out the triune. And then the other step, you know, is different. So the triune of sleep is [00:21:00] this. You have three things at play when you need, when you're falling asleep, you have the body, the need, the needs of these three things, the needs of the body.

The needs of the subconscious brain and then the needs of the conscious brain. Okay? The body wants alignment. It just doesn't want to be in pain. It just, it needs to be in a pain-free situation. The average person tosses and turns 20 to 40 times a night because the body's in pain. That's it. That's why we toss and turn, so.

The next thing is the subconscious brain. The subconscious control sleep. The body pain will interfere with sleep or the subconscious control, sleep, the subconscious need. Safety. The sub body just wants to feel safe and protected. I grew up in Malden, Massachusetts and it was on a busy street, and every once in a [00:22:00] while the kids would bang on my window to play a prank.

I was on the front, front porch, so I thought when I went to sleep I was going to get abducted every single night. So the only reason I could, I would be able to fall asleep is I'd have to put all my stuffed animals around me. I'd curl up in a ball to feel safe, then I would be able to fall asleep. So think about that.

When you put your kids to sleep, there's subconscious need for sleep, and the reason why they wanna sleep with you is safety. And now the. The conscious brain, it's where everything screws up. It's like, oh my God, I wanna feel comfortable. You're not comfortable 'cause the body isn't comfortable. What you mistake for comfort is safety for the con subconscious brain.

So the conscious brain screws everything up. So we have a whole host of things that we do to get people mindset mastery, to get them out of their consciousness, and we can go over some of those. So to set the try put, most people put themselves to sleep with their conscious brain thinking they're comfortable.

We want to [00:23:00] reverse the triune, put the body in an aligned position. I, I'll show you that in a second. It's called the corrective sleeping position. This position inherently is unsafe for the subconscious brain. That is where people take an animal sleep avatar test to develop to, to identify the amount of safety that needs to be created by each avatar.

So you have a gorilla and armadillo and an ostrich. Ostrich, it wants to stick its head under the ground. Right. It is so timid. You know, that's where abuse relationships, those are timid, timid people that need so much safety created. You know, when you sleep, it's gonna be very difficult to get them to sleep in a line position.

Then you have the armadillos, which are like 60% of the population. They curl, they, they, they need safety, but they curl up in balls. They, they like to have their, you know, on their side with that pressure on their 

Michelle Oravitz: That's me. 

Dr. Peter Martone: And then I can tell 'cause your head's tilted [00:24:00] and then, and then 

Michelle Oravitz: Oh, is it 

Dr. Peter Martone: it is, and then when, and then the gorillas, they can, you know, they can fall asleep anywhere.

So, so depending on what avatar you are, then we give you advice and tips based on your avatar to 

Michelle Oravitz: husband's a gorilla 

Dr. Peter Martone: yeah. Right. 

Michelle Oravitz: anywhere 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. 

Michelle Oravitz: with his mouth open. 

Dr. Peter Martone: And then and then, and, and then, and then from there, then we teach you to, to shut down the conscious brain.

Michelle Oravitz: Got it. That's interesting. So what's the proper position? 

Dr. Peter Martone: All right. Is this, is this on video? 

Michelle Oravitz: Well, it is for some people 

Dr. Peter Martone: Okay. So then what you'll do is 

Michelle Oravitz: you guys could check, check it out on YouTube if you wanna check this out. 

Dr. Peter Martone: and then you explain what I'm doing. Okay. 

Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Alright, so the position is typically, hold on, I gotta, I don't, I've shorted an out outline. Alright, I'll 

Michelle Oravitz: Okay. He's moving away from his mic, so I'll have [00:25:00] to explain. I. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Okay. All what I have right now is I have a a neck nest. That's the pillow we created, but you can do this with a soft down pillow or, and, or, you know, any type of 

Michelle Oravitz: so he's got basically a pillow.

that looks like it's gonna support his neck, Right? 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yep. So the one thing with sleep is, or, or anytime you support something in the body, you weaken it. I, that's why, you know, sneakers or art supports, it weakens the foot. Back support weakens the back chair. Support weakens the back. A pillow defined as a support for your head. Anytime you support your head, you weaken the cervical curve.

So what you wanna do is you wanna support the neck, but let let the head hang off the back of the pillow so it's not supported 

Michelle Oravitz: So basically just have a pillow for your neck. 

Dr. Peter Martone: And then you don't want the head supported because the weight of [00:26:00] your head will cause a, a sense of distraction. And that distraction will reinforce the curve in the neck, aligning it, improving vagal tone, improving the function of the vagus nerve.

So just by sleeping in this position, you're gonna improve higher rate variability by 10 to 30%.

Michelle Oravitz: Interesting. Okay, so he's basically laying on his back and he is got something that looks like a bolster, but it's soft and it surrounds his neck. He put, he has it supporting his neck and it surrounds on the side, and then his head is not supported behind it. It's just laying back. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yes. And that's, that's the design that we created with the Neck Nest. So I'll, this is, so I'll show you now how to do it with like a sound. It would be. It has to be a soft, soft pillow. This is what I used before we created the ness. So I, I would put pillows on their edges [00:27:00] and see a pillow is support for your head.

You do not wanna support your head when you're sleeping on your back. You want to support your neck and allow the head to hang off the back.

Michelle Oravitz: Okay,

so now he's using it with a pillow, but having the pillow on its side, so it's basically not laying flat and it's a very soft pillow, so he's able to adjust it. 

Dr. Peter Martone: of your head is unsupported. That is really, really, really important.

Michelle Oravitz: That's interesting. I'm gonna try that. 

Dr. Peter Martone: It's, 

Michelle Oravitz: I'm gonna try that. 

Dr. Peter Martone: That's awesome. 

Michelle Oravitz: So you gotta train yourself to be a back sleeper. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yes. Well, you have to train yourself to fall asleep in that position. Remember, when you are trying to start to get to that type of mindset where you gotta be a back sleeper, you're not in control. All you have to train yourself to do is fall asleep in that [00:28:00] position and go take your animal avatar test, and then it'll tell you how to, how you need to create safety to start in that position because you won't be able to shut off the brain.

Actually, you know what? Let me give you another tip. Because this is important. If you're gonna start to fall asleep in this position, a lot of times people will feel like they're falling backwards or they, they, they'll, they'll, they'll lose their breath because their body does not like that extension, because of the vestibular.

You feel like you're, you know, you, you're, you're, you're, 

Michelle Oravitz: you're not supported. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. Yeah. Your, well, your body your body's brain or valid system doesn't like it. So you can use either a bed wedge or something and sleep slightly sitting up. 

Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Peter Martone: another way that I do this 

Michelle Oravitz: So he's saying to put

a bed wedge if that's the case. If it makes you feel uncomfortable Or not safe and supported, you can use a bed wedge. [00:29:00] And then on top of that, use that neck support that he was mentioning before. 

Dr. Peter Martone: if you don't have a bed wedge, which a lot of people don't, you can put two pillows. See how I have two pillows down there

Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. So instead of a bed wedge, you could put two pillows to support your back. 

Dr. Peter Martone: and then 

Michelle Oravitz: So that it elevates you 

Dr. Peter Martone: And then you're sleeping elevated.

Michelle Oravitz: got it. Yeah. So you could elevate yourself to make That, an easier way to fall asleep. Interesting.

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah. that 

Michelle Oravitz: you got me curious. And that helps your vagus nerve and it helps get you in parasympathetic mode, which helps your hormones. Gets you in creative mode, which of course the physical creativity is your fertility.

Dr. Peter Martone: And that you can't Google, 

Michelle Oravitz: No, that's really fascinating. So how can people find this or really find out how [00:30:00] to like learn all of these amazing techniques? 

Dr. Peter Martone: they can take they can go to Dr. S-L-E-E-P-R-I-G-H-T, that's dr. Sleep right.com. They can take a free animal sleep avatar test and then, then you're in our world, you'll get some you'll get anytime we do like sleep things, you can do that. And then there you can find out about our programs. And then if you wanna dive deeper and, and look into Neck Nest, there's you can get a link for to Neck Nest from there.

Michelle Oravitz: That's so interesting. Dr. Peter Marone. This is really, really fascinating. I've never had anybody come on here and talk about it with also, I mean, first of all, talk about this subject, but also with such a unique approach to sleeping. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Yeah, thank you. It's we put a lot of, a lot of sleepless nights into it and you know, now it's, it's act two, it's, my mission is to change the way the world sleeps. Helping them get way better sleep. And the way [00:31:00] is awakening the full potential of a well-rested, aligned you and the you's important.

It's who do you need to become to have the be be the best version of you? And, and it's, it's not, I wanna have it right. I want to have better sleep. Then you're just gonna go from what to what? To what, to what to what. And it's like, who do you need to become to change your mind to be able to get there?

Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And so really the idea is getting into that state and the new habits will help you stay asleep. 

Dr. Peter Martone: It's, it's, it's amazing how it, once you start to work on the drills of the 10 minute sleep ritual, which is putting yourself to sleep for the setup. Then the five core elements of what you do during the day is fun because now you're just becoming healthier and 

Michelle Oravitz: Right. Feel more arrested, 

Dr. Peter Martone: gonna make you a better sleeper.

As long as you get the, if you don't plug the, the charger in you, 

Michelle Oravitz: then you're grumpy. you don't wanna learn anything. 

Dr. Peter Martone: exactly.[00:32:00] 

Michelle Oravitz: We don't wanna be grumpy, 

Dr. Peter Martone: No 

Michelle Oravitz: we wanna feel good. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing this amazing information. And so, so you gave them the email. Is there, I mean the website, is there any other place that people can find you or learn 

Dr. Peter Martone: We're, we're on Instagram at Dr. Sleep Wright. We're on TikTok now. We just had one thing go over a million views. 

Michelle Oravitz: Oh, cool. 

Dr. Peter Martone: It's. Sleep. Right. So, Dr. Sleep Wright is the is the brand that you'd be able to find me on.

Michelle Oravitz: Fantastic. Well, thank you so much Dr. Martone for coming on.

today. This is a great conversation. 

Dr. Peter Martone: Thank you for having me.

Michelle Oravitz: Awesome. [00:33:00] 

 

On today’s solo episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m sharing one of my greatest passions Ayurveda, and how this ancient healing system can deeply support your fertility journey. Ayurveda, which translates to “the study of life,” is a holistic approach that brings harmony to the body, mind, and spirit. In this episode, I’ll walk you through the three doshas Vata, Pitta, and Kapha, and how understanding your unique body type can empower you to make daily choices that support reproductive health and overall well-being.

You’ll learn how to identify your dominant dosha, how to nourish and balance it with specific foods, yoga practices, and self-care rituals, and why Ayurveda is such a powerful and intuitive tool for restoring balance. Whether you’re new to Ayurveda or looking to integrate it more fully into your life, this episode is filled with practical guidance to help you feel more connected, grounded, and supported on your path to fertility.

Key Takeaways: 

• Ayurveda is a holistic science that balances the body, mind, and spirit to promote fertility and overall health.

• There are three primary doshas Vata (air & ether), Pitta (fire & water), and Kapha (earth & water) each with unique physical, emotional, and energetic characteristics.

• Understanding your dosha helps you make personalized lifestyle and nutrition choices that support hormonal balance and reproductive health.

• Vata types benefit from warmth, grounding, and healthy fats; Pitta types thrive on cooling, anti-inflammatory foods; and Kapha types need stimulation, lighter foods, and movement.

• Daily practices like dry brushing, self-massage, and tailored yoga routines can deeply support nervous system regulation and fertility.

• Ayurveda provides intuitive and practical tools you can apply daily to feel more balanced, energised, and connected to your body.

✨ Take the Dosha Quiz here to discover your Ayurvedic body type! For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ ----- Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined once again by Katie Beecher @katiebeecher_medical_intuitive, a licensed professional counselor and medical and emotional intuitive. With over 35 years of experience, Katie has a unique ability to create detailed physical, emotional, and spiritual reports and even symbolic paintings using just a person’s name and age.

In this powerful conversation, we dive into how fertility challenges are deeply tied to the body’s messages, unresolved trauma, and even spiritual guidance. Katie shares insight into Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome as a hidden factor in infertility, the emotional layers of miscarriage and loss, and the importance of connecting with spirit babies. We also explore how symptoms are not something to fear—but invitations to tune in and heal.

Whether you're on a fertility journey or simply seeking a deeper connection to your body and intuition, this episode is filled with wisdom and compassion.

Key Takeaways:

• Symptoms are not your enemy they are messages from your body and spirit.

• Anxiety, trauma, and stress disconnect us from our bodies, blocking healing and fertility.

• Spirit babies often communicate with future parents and may arrive through various paths—including adoption or donor eggs.

• Conditions like Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome can go undiagnosed but play a significant role in reproductive health.

• Empowering your intuition and setting boundaries are crucial for emotional and spiritual readiness for parenthood.

• Healing is not about control—it’s about partnership with your body, your spirit, and the wisdom within.

Guest Bio: Katie Beecher is a licensed professional counselor and renowned medical and emotional intuitive with over 35 years of experience. Known for her unique ability to create detailed wellness reports and symbolic paintings using just a person’s name and age, Katie has been featured in over 200 media outlets including Goop, Poosh, and Kora Organics. She is also the author of Heal from Within: An Intuitive Guide to Wellness, a practical guide that teaches readers how to access their own intuition, cultivate self-love, and heal holistically. Katie’s work is deeply informed by her personal healing journey from bulimia, Lyme disease, and depression—an experience that began when she courageously sought help as a teenager and has since inspired her life’s mission. Websites/Social Media Links: Katie’s InstagramKatie’s FacebookWatch her on YoutubeGet her book: Heal From Within: A Guide to Intuitive WellnessRead here blog: The Common, Frequently Overlooked Disorder That May Connect All of Your Mystery Symptoms—-------------

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com 

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility 

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/ 

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility 

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

 

Transcript:

# TWF: Katie Beecher (audio)

[00:00:00] Episode number 3 32 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Katie Beecher. Katie is a licensed professional counselor and medical and emotional intuitive. With over 35 years of experience, Katie is featured in over 200 media outlets including Goop, Courtney Kardashian's website and Miranda Kerr's Gora Organics blog and has taught a week long workshop.

At the Omega Institute, she has a unique way of working with clients, creating a detailed, individualized, physical, emotional, and spiritual report and symbolic painting before ever seeing them, talking with them, or seeing a photograph using only their name and age. Katie's first book. Heal from within. An intuitive guide to wellness uses practical tools and techniques Katie uses in her own medical and spiritual intuitive readings.

The book teaches you to be your own medical intuitive, using [00:01:00] Katie's revolutionary step-by-step process for connecting to intuition and spirit, finding self-love and empowerment as well as to heal physically, emotionally, and spiritually. Heal from within is filled with remarkable stories of healing from her years of experience, as well as her own healing from bulimia, Lyme disease and emotional illness at the age of 16, without telling anyone, including her parents, Katie contacted her pediatrician and began therapy for a severe eating disorder and suicidal depression.

She has been healed for over 35 years.

Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility [00:02:00] journey.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome back to the podcast, Katie. I'm so happy to have you back.

**Katie Beecher:** This is a really great topic and I work with it a lot, so it's nice to, uh, podcast.

**Michelle Oravitz:** So good. So I remember our first podcast episode. We talked about how about your gift really, and how you also incorporate art, which I thought was so cool.

**Katie Beecher:** Yes.

**Michelle Oravitz:** and so now since then you've started to see a lot of people. With fertility, like specifically

fertility people are coming to you like about loss miscarriage and also spirit babies, like future babies and babies who have, yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** I mean, I've, I always worked with a little bit but yeah, lately, like the past six months or so, I've really been getting a lot of fertility people. And, and I really, really, my heart goes out to them.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. And I feel like it's kind of like you're being called, you're being summoned.

**Katie Beecher:** Yes.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it's like a need, it's like a need in that world to really [00:03:00] become a messenger in that space. I wanted to get your thoughts, like, why do you feel like we're living at this time right now?

Like this time it seems to be more needed than ever. Like the, the fertility space, like there a lot more people are experiencing that. There's a lot more of that happening now, and I wanted to get, get your take on it.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, I mean, I think some of it gets down to just lifestyle changes and people having children getting married later, having children later, you know, decide to do that. And that's kind of. Age isn't necessarily a fertility block as we know, but it definitely can complicate things, you know? So I think that's a piece of it.

I don't know if there's more stress than in the past. It feels like it,

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah 

**Katie Beecher:** for sure. So, and we all know that stress plays a big part in it with the cortisol and the, you know, effects on the immune system and, and all those kind of things. So I think that's also it. And [00:04:00] I feel like people have more of a need to communicate with spirit in terms of their own personal relationship with their intuition.

Their body and a lot of people for various reasons are kind of out of body and, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right. It's true. 

**Katie Beecher:** it's really hard to know what your body needs for fertility or anything else if you are not in it or if you feel like it's your enemy or you can't listen to the signals it gives you in terms of self care, for example.

You know, so. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I agree. I also like noticed, I remember I read your book and it's, I feel like with you, it's what's cool. What I really like is that. You not only are connected to spirit, which I think that most people who don't really understand it think it's kind of like somewhere up in the clouds or it's not like real, or I not, it's hard to like kind of, look at because it's not something that could be looked at. It's something that's more experienced. But what I find that's interesting about you is that you [00:05:00] really pull it into the body

**Katie Beecher:** Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

**Michelle Oravitz:** you kind of like the intelligence in your body. It's almost like the, the messages that your body's giving to you. And that could be considered Yeah. Like intuitive, but that's actually like something we all have.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, no, it's true. I try to, you know, make it not woo woo because it's really not, and we all have medical intuition. We use it all the time. Like, you know, if you get a stomach ache, it's, you immediately start thinking. and problem solving. Like, was it something I just ate? Do I need to have crackers?

Do I need to get some seltzer? Do I, you know, have to, aol, do I need to lay down? Do I need to go to the hospital? So whether it's you or your kids, right? Because we're, we do it for our family members also. so I think it's something that naturally happens. My abilities take it to the, you know, nth degree, which is different, but it doesn't mean that people don't have medical intuitive abilities who don't do what I do.

**Michelle Oravitz:** 100%. I think so too. It's, [00:06:00] not I think it's something that we've all been given because we need to have it. We need to know what's going on with our body and we can have it too. It's not something, and I think that sometimes we also give the power away. I.

To other people to dictate kind of what we should do with our own bodies, and we also overlook our own intuition on what our bodies are telling us because we don't trust that.

I mean, it really kind of goes on and on.

**Katie Beecher:** It, it really does. And I think people, if you have trauma or illness or something, the thought is that these, these feelings in your body, are scary or that there are enemies or we have to fix them and obsess about them. And a, I think a more practical way of looking at it is what is my body telling me?

What is my intuition telling me? You know, if my chest is tight, that may be my intuition yelling at me that I need to do something different or whatever. Even like anxiety [00:07:00] is so big and I look at anxiety as number one. It's very natural. It's a survival mechanism, right? We've always had it. We've always needed it.

And it's letting, it's letting you know that something isn't right. So it may be danger or it may be that you're letting people take advantage of you, or not setting boundaries, or that you're not doing self-care or you're doing something against yourself, or it just means something's wrong that we need to take a look at.

And the more you push it down, the stronger it gets. So then it becomes this big thing in and of itself, you know?

**Michelle Oravitz:** But it's actually just trying to guide you. It's kind of trying to get your attention and that's why I always say like symptoms, it's so funny 'cause we get really annoyed with symptoms. But symptoms are our best friends. They're the best things that we could have. It's such a, a, genius design of our bodies

is to let us know what's going on

and to guide us.

It's when we fight with the symptoms, they grow bigger and bigger and then they become like really hard to manage.

**Katie Beecher:** And then what happens [00:08:00] is the more we ignore, the worse they get and the more that they need to interfere with our help, our happiness, and our help, and, and it's not even necessarily our faults because. We have a culture of just, you know, grin and bear it, kind of get through it, you know, just don't even, you know, and, and there's something to be said for that as well, but like, you can't ignore what your body is telling you.

And then also expect to be healthy and happy because you, you're either here or you're out here. 

And if you're out here. It's impossible to be present. Most of us live in between, like I, I live out there too, so, but I be here, you know, in order to function and and help people too.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And then so talk to me about some of the cases that you've seen of late. You know, 'cause you've been talking to more people. I know we were talking before [00:09:00] about a lot of loss, and I think that that's a really important topic because it's so confusing, it's heartbreaking. It's just really hard for people, especially because not a lot of attention goes on that type of loss.

Like pregnancy loss. It's not given a ceremony. It's not unless the couple decides to do it. So I think that, and then the community, sometimes couples go through it alone, so I think that it's a very unique type of loss in that way. It could be really, really difficult because of that.

**Katie Beecher:** like I said, I really feel for people and a lot of it is, things that some, if you haven't been through it, like a miscarriage or, or whatever, or a fertility journey. Right. If you haven't been through that, just like if you haven't been through anything, it can be hard to understand what a person's going through.

But I was working with somebody recently and she been trying to get pregnant for. I guess like five years now. And she's in her forties. And she's gotten pregnant through [00:10:00] various means, but they were all chemical pregnancies, so they only lasted about a week or so. And then even with the egg retrieval all of her embryos have seemed to have some abnormality, so.

There's nothing that she can do, you know, in terms of, of fixing that. And then the, the question is like, does that mean that every time I try to get pregnant, there's gonna be something wrong with the baby? And is there something wrong with me and is there something wrong with my body? And just like, and this person, I really feel for her 'cause she's doing it alone.

She doesn't have a partner, you know, and so there's not even anybody to help. Kind of support you and pick up that slack, you know? And that, that loss just then turns, I think, to sheer terror of, ah, and then 

**Michelle Oravitz:** right. Every single time you have to go through it, you're, you're not gonna be able to feel safe.

**Katie Beecher:** and there's A-P-T-S-D [00:11:00] component to it of, do I get my hopes up? What if I get hurt again? What if I, and, and all of those feelings of grief and loss and everything come back every time you even think about doing it again. You know,

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right.

**Katie Beecher:** and I just, like you said, it's not, and I think things like your show and other things have helped people be able to talk about it more.

You know, but it is a foreign concept to a lot of people.

**Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. And so what do you see, do you see like a spiritual component to it? Is there some message or something that they need to like address that

they feel um, at least to get through it, you know, to get them stronger? Mm-hmm.

**Katie Beecher:** so it's, I I pick up a really mixed bag of things. It's not uncommon for me to pick up. Physical or emotional issues that need to be addressed before a healthy pregnancy can take place. And so, things [00:12:00] like Lyme, because Lyme can get passed on, you know, to your kids. And if you have that, there's a lot of reasons why you need to heal as much as possible, you know, before you can have healthy pregnancy.

What I pick up on a lot is something called ER Danlos syndrome. Have you heard of that before?

**Michelle Oravitz:** No.

**Katie Beecher:** So Ler Danlos, the, one of the most prominent symptoms of it is hypermobility. So being ultra flexible, but even that can, can be different in every person. But it's a connective tissue disorder and it's collagen and elastin that are always inflamed in your body.

So you have this ongoing inflammation, but EDS impacts virtually every area of the body.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Wow.

**Katie Beecher:** It's really, really crazy. I have it, my daughter have it has it also. So I feel like a Guinea pig, you know, having, and then I can help a lot more other people, which is. Is good. And then I end up helping a lot of families 'cause it's genetic.

So people are like, oh, I didn't know I had it. That [00:13:00] sounds like my mom, but that sounds like my sister. Or, you know. But the thing about it is that because your organs can be lax because there's inflammation, because all sorts of things and it screws up your hormones. It a million things that can be a real, a hidden cause of infertility.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Wow, that's crazy. 'cause I've never heard about.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, it's not uncommon. It used to be considered a rare disease and there's 13 different types, so all except the most common type are pretty rare. But the most common type is not rare at all. I pick it up all the time and it's been getting more media attention, which is good. Because doctors are really bad at diagnosing it.

'cause there's all these symptoms and so when you go to a doctor, usually all insurance allows them to pay for, is that one symptom? Like, which is crazy because you need to look at the whole body 

to 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Wow, that's so crazy. And what could

you do about it?

**Katie Beecher:** So, you can't [00:14:00] cure it, but there's a lot you can do. And so a lot of it is like testing for histamine sensitivities, for example, histamines come into it.

They do all sorts of different, you know, testing for autoimmune things and just that kind of thing is, is valuable. But what was the most helpful to me in my treatment was getting to work with physical therapists who were specialists in EDS.

And I was able to see like which parts of my body were really stiff.

'cause you can be stiff, not just 

flexible, right? It all, it moves around your body all the time. 'cause your tendon ligaments are going like this. And so what was tight? What was loose? What was weak? Was strong. Different sides of the body are different. It ex like it can show if you have a, a loose area, other areas get tight to overcompensate for it.

So, I've been able to like do things like before I do my pole dancing and aerial arts and stuff like [00:15:00] that. There's certain exercises and things that I need to do in order to not injure myself again. And even things like, it makes you more susceptible to bone density issues, right? Because it does, it can't, you can't hold up your muscles and bones with loose ligaments.

So there's a lot of things. And in terms of pregnancy, right? People with EDS are more prone to things like placenta previa and all sorts of different complications, even like miscarriages and stuff. Implantation issues, just all kinds of things. Endometriosis, so many things. But during pregnancy, as you probably know, our ligaments and our hips loosen up anyway, right.

So if the doctor knows that you have EDS, there's things that they can do, exercises they can give you, things that they can do to, you know, watch for. And also like maybe if things are really loose, you might need a a cesarean, you know, before another person would, or [00:16:00] even like. Anesthesia, for example.

People with EDS, sometimes anesthesia works, sometimes it doesn't work, sometimes it works too much. So it's, you know, those kind of things that you can kind of prepare for knowing what conditions people 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Could it impact like an incompetent cervix?

That's, uh, so that's another one. You'd get a cerclage to keep it closed.

**Katie Beecher:** Exactly, exactly. Yeah. It affects the whole body, 'cause connected tissues everywhere, 

including the brain. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** crazy.

**Katie Beecher:** It is, it's really, and it's, it's so gratifying to work with people with it who have been told they have everything else, like fibromyalgia. Don't even get me started on that diagnosis. But, you know, that's what comes back a lot because 

they don't know right, what the root causes are.

And even like, like pots you know, like I said, histamine sensitivities, like there's so many side. Side things that are basically created when we have inflammation and when 

our organs aren't doing what they 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It can impact your gut. I mean, it [00:17:00] impacts so much.

**Katie Beecher:** huge. Yeah. And the earlier you get diagnosed, the better. And my daughter and I have this running joke.

Oh, it's EDS, you know, but I wasn't diagnosed until my fifties and she got diagnosed when she was 25. so 

**Michelle Oravitz:** so crazy. Wow. That's actually eyeopening. 'cause it's not something that I've heard. I, because I, I see patients all the time. They're always giving me their doctor's diagnosis. I would've remembered it 'cause it's a very unusual

**Katie Beecher:** Right, and there's a spectrum, so it, there's hypermobility and then like everything else, it's a spectrum. So even if you don't have full blown EDS, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. 

**Katie Beecher:** person, it, it can still affect you.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Are there any functional medicine approaches that can help it inflammation? 

**Katie Beecher:** like definitely, you know, supplements that help with inflammation 

and, you know, natural stuff. There's a a 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Or even collagen, taking collagen or like bone broth. I don't

**Katie Beecher:** yes. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** are the things that I think off, off

**Katie Beecher:** [00:18:00] Yeah. It's kind of a mixed bag because part of it is that we don't process collagen.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, I

**Katie Beecher:** Right way. However, 

I find taking collagen very helpful. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Okay, got It It could be also, like certain people might benefit, certain people might not. It's kind of like a, it's not a one size fits all, even if you have it.

**Katie Beecher:** exactly. And like I use dma. Which is kind of a weird little thing, but I use it for hair growth, but it also is silica, so it helps your bones and, and you know, and then um, there's a supplement I like called Liga plex too, which also helps with adrenals 'cause it messes with your adrenals, messes with your nervous system, the whole whole thing.

A lot of people with it are neuro neurodivergent links, eating disorders. It's, it's really, wow.

really, because you don't have a. Sense of your body. So your your proprioception is off and your body image is off, and 

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's interesting. It's so crazy to me [00:19:00] because um, you know, so many people go through these things and they think it's their fault.

They don't realize that there is another explanation kind of lurking underneath that is causing them to feel the way they're feeling and they feel the shame and kind of guilt for getting to the place that they're getting to, but they just don't realize why.

Mm-hmm.

**Katie Beecher:** My daughter actually just from me being me, you know, and then the, she has the same and different symptoms, even though we have the same subtype of EDS, but she actually went to her doctor and. Told the doctor all about this stuff and the doctor's like, well, that's too rare. That doesn't, you know, it really even barely ever happens.

And you know, the, just gave her medical gaslighting. And thankfully I have two stubborn adult children who, you know, she went to somebody else who had more of a background in it. She got officially diagnosed, she went back to that doctor,

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Good for her because sometimes that's so frustrating. Yeah. Yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** She was like, uh, this is what I have, and you told me I didn't.

And like, you really need to know [00:20:00] more so you can help other people. And the 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right. Yeah, it's good. It's good. I like it when that happens. 'cause it's not, not to sort of, it's more to, to educate them like I to come back. 'cause patients educate me all the time. Like I think that as doctors, you need to let your patients educate you because that's how you learn, that's why it's called a practice. You have to connect and really listen to your patients if you really wanna become a good practitioner. In general. Yeah,

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah. And I think the best practitioners have medical intuitive abilities.

**Michelle Oravitz:** true. And I'll be honest, it's interesting because like, I definitely have always been sensitive. I do think that I'm intuitive. I don't like, uh, it's not something that I kind of go forward with, but it's true. Like people that work with me know that, but. I will never override another person's intuition.

So if somebody tells me they don't feel right about a supplement, even if the textbook tells me that is the perfect supplement for them, I [00:21:00] will say, listen to your body. That's always, just listen to your body, you know best. And I think that, I think that that is just kind of like a do no harm. You have to really respect the person's inner intelligence that they only connect with.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, and teach people how to trust it, like as accurate as my guides are, and it's really amazing. I tell people I don't want. You to trust my intuition over yours. Like I want you to consider what I'm saying, but it doesn't mean that like I wanna teach you how to develop your intuition. I wanna 

teach you how to talk to your spirit 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Well, that's your book. Your book talked a lot about that.

It was like empowering your own in innate intuition.

**Katie Beecher:** Exactly. And we do need other people. We do. You know, 'cause we have blinders and we have fears and all kinds of stuff that can get in the way in our own agendas and you know.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** But I think when you talk to people and they think about times when they're in, when they trusted their intuition, they can be like, like miraculous things [00:22:00] happened.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's true. It really is true, and sometimes it's interesting. Sometimes in order to trust your intuition, you're actually. Given a very difficult choice to make. You have to like do something that is hard to do or like go against people's opinions or go against what your initial expectation was, but then it becomes so worth it, it it, you start to realize there's a reason for that.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, I totally agree. And it's, if I hadn't gone through some of all of the stuff that I've gone through, I wouldn't have learned how to, you know, develop and trust my intuition and my weird abilities. And it was really through that diversity and. I like to tell people that other people's pain or your own pain might be the greatest gift you've received.

It doesn't make it any easier, but you know, if you can respond to it and figure out what you need to do to take care of yourself and maybe learn to trust spirit instead of feeling [00:23:00] alone all the time, like. There's so many benefits to it that yeah, even though it's not an exact science and you don't always 

trust it, you 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, everything's so unique. I think that that's like on earth, like every person is so unique. Every path is so unique. Even if you have like this, a similar type of path,

it's still unique. You were just talking about uh, EDS and how it's unique with every person that has it. And the same thing with fertility.

So like people going through that, you know, going through those challenges, it's like any kind of challenge in life really. You know, where something is there. To guide you. I've seen it. I've talked to enough people. I've been doing this in, you know, the podcast since 2018. I've talked to enough people to hear stories and how their end, like the end point.

They always look back and they're like, I wouldn't have changed it. But when they're in it, they're like, I don't want this. But then afterwards they're like, oh, wow. Now I see. It's like hindsight shows [00:24:00] you the reason.

**Katie Beecher:** A lot of the time too, I find that people have, who are having fertility issues, they have really difficult people in their lives or they hate their job or something like that. So it requires setting boundaries. Especially if you know, you and your partner don't agree on some really important parenting issues or values or what I see a lot too is people who are concerned about their parents or in-laws.

And how they're going to be with their children. And so it can be an amazing opportunity to stand up to them and set limits with stuff. Maybe you would've taken from your own parents or an in-law for yourself and you're like, no way you're treating my kids like that. Or saying that around my kids are doing, you know?

I got a lot ballsier for sure when I had kids and I.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, and then that's really, I think that that's one of the things, [00:25:00] like, I feel like fertility challenges set you up for parenting because you, you start, you start with advocating for yourself, and eventually you're gonna have to make very difficult decisions

with kids and advocating for them, even in the medical com, you know, system.

I, I've had it for many things. Doing things that, uh, is a little outside the box. I didn't want fluoride, my kids' teeth, and people look at you sideways, but now it's coming out that it's not good. And not being political, like I'm just saying in general, like in general, it's coming out that fluoride is not good for you and it lowers the IQ of kids.

It, it is what it is. Yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** I know it's, and that's, I know so many challenging things because yes, it benefits teeth, but oh my God, all the other stuff.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And there are other things that can benefit the teeth. Uh, vitamin D. Yeah. So many things. So, so it's kind of like that, like it doesn't [00:26:00] end, you know, these challenges never end. And I think that what you're saying is so important, like really setting boundaries and standing up for what you know to be right. It's really listening to your heart, your integrity, and kind of like staying in your integrity. I feel like that might be difficult at first, but it actually makes your life easier.

**Katie Beecher:** Does. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's kind of like the the trick thing that people don't realize.

**Katie Beecher:** No, I, I tell people it's like training a dog, like you're setting boundaries with your dog so that they don't, you know, pee in the house or 

they, 

you 

**Michelle Oravitz:** be happy later.

**Katie Beecher:** so, and that's, that's how you parent too, and that's how you deal with, with other people in your life. 

You know, it's not a negative. Maybe it'll make people angry at you.

You know, maybe temporarily, maybe not, but, oh, well, Yeah. Listen, if people are angry at you, when you're not doing something to intentionally hurt them and you're just kind of speaking your truth, then that's a they problem.

Oh, it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** You know? It's like, you know, you're [00:27:00] not like trying to hurt anybody. You're just speaking your truth. Then that's, you know, you can't, you can't really control that. And I, and I say you have to stand, definitely stand your ground. I agree with you. I mean, that's definitely a big thing. Do you through spirit babies, like get messages for things that they want their future parents to know?

**Katie Beecher:** It works a lot of different ways, so, encourage, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right. I think that's the theme for today. It's not a one size fits all.

**Katie Beecher:** No. I get messages from children who who were not able to come through as healthy pregnancies. That's a good way to put it. Even people, and it's awful. If, if you've had an abortion and now you're trying to get pregnant, there's like can be so much guilt 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It could be in mind off. I know. I, I've talked to so many people

**Katie Beecher:** Right. So I talk to them. I also am able to talk to babies and children who are coming to them. And it's [00:28:00] fascinating because it's, it's often biological children, but sometimes it's also children who are going to come to people through adoption or.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. I just got the chills 'cause it's true. Like it that it's still your child. Yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** Like, I see it all the time where there's a mom or a parent, you know, parental group, whatever you wanna call them. And there's this child on the outside and they're not necessarily a baby. And that's often my signal. My guides are like, this person needs to help whoever this is. That's they're gonna connect with whoever this is.

And it may come to them, they're not expecting, you know, but, and as we know there so many kids who. In need of good parenting and, and foster care system's awful. And, you know, and all those things. and it is very delicate to bring up, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, it's true. It's true because, uh, people have their own plans.[00:29:00] 

**Katie Beecher:** know, and, and of course they want biological children and of course, you know, so I, I totally get that. But I am honest with people when I do my readings and I'm just like, Hey. This is coming through, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** I think you have to be

'cause you're a messenger and you can't change the message

if that's what it is. And I had Dr. Lisa Miller on who had gone through, actually it was very interesting. She had gone through her fertility, like a fertility challenges and. Went through so

much to try to conceive and she kept getting this inner voice come to her and say, if you if you can conceive, would you adopt?

Or something like that. Like, I don't remember the exact sentence, and would you still adopt? And she was like, no, I, I want my own baby. And then it kept coming to her. And then at one point she just happened to be, I think I was staying at a hotel or somewhere where. [00:30:00] There was a program on kids that were orphans, and one of them was inhaling some kind of chemical and said, the reason that he does that is because he doesn't feel love. Like he doesn't have anybody that loves him. And of course, you know, anybody has a heart and hears that

their heart breaks. But for her it was like this next level of, uh, wow. Like it really shook her. And at that point it was, it. It was her and her husband, and there was a reason why the TV couldn't work and it had to be on that, and they ended up adopting in that.

And the night before she went to adopt, I think it was outside of the country, she heard the voice again, the question come back to her, would you adopt if you can conceive naturally, would you adopt? She said, absolutely. And that month she also conceived. you know what I mean?

And it was like those children were supposed to meet and be SI

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, exactly. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** was just [00:31:00] the whole thing. So crazy.

**Katie Beecher:** The person um, that I recently worked with, I saw a young boy and an older girl and I said, one of them is not going to come from you. And and I'm like. There's gonna be some child you hear about, or some show is gonna come on, or some program or something you come across on the internet, and it's going to open your eyes or open your heart to the possibility of adoption.

It doesn't mean that you're not gonna be able to have your own. Biological person too. But yeah, I literally saw them together holding hands and it's, I get a lot of images through my, you know, with my guides. But I totally felt like, you know, she's like, I really don't even wanna go there. I said, I understand and I'm not telling you what to do.

All I'm saying is look into the possibilities even doing a donor egg, because that might take that fear. of having, you know, a child [00:32:00] that is really disabled or something like that, you know, because, and I'm not, that's not a judgment call. She told me the first time she got pregnant, she had this overwhelming fear that there was something wrong with baby.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, it was like that intuition.

**Katie Beecher:** Exactly. And then it didn't, it wasn't viable, you know, so it turned out she was right. I 

said, see, so your intuition's working, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right. Although I just took this for people listening, just 'cause you have a thought like that doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

There's a difference between fears and sometimes fears can trick us, but then there's also intuition and that is real. Like it's a, it's a, it feels different.

**Katie Beecher:** It's true. And, and especially, I mean, any new mom or anyone, time you, you know, you get pregnant of course. You're like, I would want this to go, well, this 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, you're gonna, you, and sometimes your mind goes into all kinds of places. What if it happens like this? Or that doesn't

necessarily mean it's your intuition.

Yeah. 

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah. 

There's a difference between fear and I. Yes. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's happened to me before. Yeah. No, no. 'cause I know, like my, I, I know myself. Like if I, you know, I'd be like, oh [00:33:00] my God, well if I feel that, does that mean that it's real?

And, it feels like that. Yeah, for sure. Like when you're actually going through it. But sometimes you do have like this real strong nudge, like knowing which is different. But again, it's harder for people who don't like, do what you do to really distinguish the, Difference. How can people, actually, that's a good question.

How can people figure out what's my intuition and what's my fear? be a perfect person to ask.

**Katie Beecher:** sot book I. And it talks about all of this stuff, but I really, I'm glad that you mentioned it because people will say to me like, how do I know it's my intuition or not just a voice in my head or something I made up right? Or fear or whatever. So what I tell people is, whatever you get when you're communicating with intuition, just allow it to be there.

Write it down. It's a written technique thing. Write it down. Just allow it to be there without judgment, without fear. And then if something does come through that's scary. Then address [00:34:00] that and just be like, okay, hello voice. You know, what is this thing that I'm really afraid of? Why am I afraid of it?

What can I do about it? Is this an intuitive feeling or is it just a fear? You know? So that way you are not pushing it down, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Katie Beecher:** addressing it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right. Right. That's a good point. 'cause sometimes we'll push it away.

**Katie Beecher:** Right. And this way you can problem solve. Like I'm, I'm really afraid you know that there's gonna be something wrong with baby. And then, so that may prompt you to be like, okay, ask your doctor if there are tests that you can do to, you know, so 

**Michelle Oravitz:** you 

can be proactive. Yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** You know, like in my own case, I felt like something was off.

We had an amniocentesis and it, 

gonna get into this whole thing, but it showed like a potential, really like huge problem, like. Like still a born person. Yeah. It was really, really scary. And the doctor's, like, most of the time we don't even find this this thing with the cerebral spinal fluid, unless there's an autopsy and it [00:35:00] like, doesn't affect most people, but, but it could be worst case scenario.

So they're like, you can do nothing or whatever. And I'm like, no, I want the amnio. I wanna know, do the genetic testing. And, and it was torture because at that time it took a month. Sales. But I was glad I did 'cause they're like, everything is normal. 

So, yeah. And you could carry that fear or you could be like, I'm gonna do something about it and find 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And that's where you're being guided

to resolve and that's, that's what I like about how you approach this is because you approach it from a very realistic way where you're actually using action in order to, but also intuition and you're bridging the two.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, I like to give people actionable steps. You know, and okay, yeah, all these things are happening and you can't control them and it feels awful and you don't feel like you have any power, and, but what kind of things can you do? Even if it's just not just, even if it's, you know what? I can't control what's [00:36:00] going on right now, but I need to go take a walk, or I need to go work out, or I need to go do something creative to calm down my nervous system.

Let out the stress that is an actionable response.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes, that is true. And your nervous system. I am obsessed with the nervous system. I talk about it a lot because it's an information, it's an information system. So basically it's an antenna like, and if it's not if it's chaotic, you're not gonna get the message. It's static.

**Katie Beecher:** Exactly.

**Michelle Oravitz:** You need to regulate it. And that's part of the whole reason why I think stress is, you know, is such a factor.

We're constantly fight or flight. We need to even it out and kind of take the other, you know, the other balance of rest and digest and kind. I think that when we do that, we're able to get the messages more clearly.

**Katie Beecher:** Oh my God. Yeah, absolutely. Even my, you know, my own self if I'm feeling out of it or whatever, I'm just like, you can't go into your reading list this way. You know, you can't create your report and painting and all that. So you need to go do something to [00:37:00] chill.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** Be in a better space. So yeah, it's not just regular people, it's also people who do this for.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, it's every person. Every person with a nervous system. And it also puts you in a more creative, like when your nervous system is balanced, you're also more creative. You're able to be more creative. And what is fertility? It's your physical body's creativity.

**Katie Beecher:** It, it is so true. And our bodies are just so tuned in to what we are thinking and feeling. A, a quickie uterus story this actually happened to me, so going through a bunch of really intense stress with husband's job and stuff like that, so life was really freaking chaotic and I had been painting every day and I'm like.

I just lost the desire and I don't paint like black daggy things anyway, so I just was like too depressed to do anything. And ended up having really bad abdominal pain for a full year. Really bad ing abdominal pain like in, in bed. [00:38:00] Never knew when it would start and like crazy. 8 million tests of course, and no one could really find anything.

They did take my appendix out and found a cancerous tumor on my appendix.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh wow.

**Katie Beecher:** A rare cancerous tumor. So that obviously needed to come out. Um, So that was a good thing from all this crazy. But ultimately the doctor was finally like, okay, your uterus feels weird. And so I'm like, I, I've had my children.

Well, I'm not doing this pain anymore. Please just, you know, let's end this. So, woke up from the surgery and she said, we had to take one of your ovaries too. I'm like, okay. And she said, I've never seen this before in anyone. I'm thinking, yeah, it's me. My, my fallopian tube had wrapped around my uterus,

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh my

God. How can they not see that in the ultrasound?

**Katie Beecher:** well, it was adhered to it, and I guess the angles, it 

just 

didn't, didn't show up. But I was like, I know exactly what that is. That is me. I cut off my creativity. I cut off that [00:39:00] connection to myself, so my body responded by literally choking off. Center, which is 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Wow. Isn't that crazy? That is so crazy. But I see stuff like that a lot. Like, you know, a thyroid or like throat. Conditions. And the people also at the same time have a difficulty expressing themselves to the most pivotal person in their life. And you know, and sometimes just releasing that and all of a sudden tears and things come out, our bodies, you know, it's like that book.

Uh, your body keeps the score. true.

**Katie Beecher:** It, it's, and you know, Carl Young and other people like that have been talking about it for, I don't know, long, long, long time. And now just we're, we're just catching up now.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, and it also gives you symbols. It'll give you like

a reflection of metaphors.

**Katie Beecher:** Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's, it's really fascinating and like, I like to teach people how to talk to your uterus, talk to your eggs. You know, talk to your [00:40:00] hormones, whatever's going on, and treat them as your friends. Not something that you hate or that is broken, or that you have to obsess about or even fix.

Of course, the goal is to heal. But, and I did this with healing from my eating disorder, was, what do you need from me? Why is this happening? 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Katie Beecher:** are there things I need to change in my life? What are you trying to tell me? How can I help you heal? So, treat it like a team member

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, I

**Katie Beecher:** that is in it with you that's helping you make changes rather than feeling like it's foreign 

or you're out of your body.

You hate your body. It feels 

like 

it's. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** thing. It's that, that kind of myth of the separation.

**Katie Beecher:** Exactly. Exactly. So that takes so much of the anxiety out of it also. 'cause you're like, okay, I do have [00:41:00] some control over this. It's not just this, my body that's doing all these things that I don't want it to do and can't understand. Like 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Right. It's, it becomes more whole, like you feel more wholeness.

With that, it becomes more complete. There's more closure too because you're allowing whatever it needs to be expressed to express itself. I remember seeing Dolores Cannon, I'll see sometimes like reels or different things and she was talking about how your cells in your body, like look at you kind of like your executive function as a God and like whatever you say, it's like, oh, that must be true. And that's really how your subconscious mind works and that's why hypnotherapy works because it's kinda those suggestions. Ultimately come from the top. Your conscious mind can make those choices

and then repeat it, repeat it, repeat it until it gets into the subconscious mind. Your body and your cells are part of that subconscious mind.

**Katie Beecher:** It's true. And even just I'll be, you know, freaked [00:42:00] out about something, whatever, before I go to poll and, I'll have a great class burn off all this energy and I'll come back and be like, what was I even thinking about? Or a totally different perspective what was bothering me before. So, so much is our mindset.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, it, it really is everything. 'cause it's like how we experience our world and you could take like 10 different people with the same exact life and they'll experience it differently.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, it's, it's so true. 

Um, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** have choice.

**Katie Beecher:** we do, so I'd like to encourage people who are dealing with fertility difficulties to not see their body as the enemy. To be open to all sorts of possibilities. When we release some of that anxiety and stress, we're more creative, like you said. So maybe you, you think of a, a problem solving strategy that no one's brought up before, you know, or that you haven't, [00:43:00] or maybe your body will be like.

Oh wait. I thought it was this, this, and this, but maybe I need to have my hormones checked, or maybe the testing wasn't accurate or maybe like it just frees you up 

to 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. 

**Katie Beecher:** more answers.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I see it a lot of times with my patients. So what you're saying is actually very accurate, like. I think that once people, and I see it also once they do acupuncture or like dirt, certain practices, they'll start to uncover things and they'll get ideas and they're like, oh, that's interesting.

Somebody said some, something about that. Or they'll listen to a podcast and hear like the guests and they're like, oh my God, I think that that's my route. And it just kind of, they start to align and then find answers. So 

**Katie Beecher:** I mean, being a control freak, which I'm guilty of you

**Michelle Oravitz:** All of 

us. 

**Katie Beecher:** freakiness. Right. And anxiety just, it interferes more than we realize, and it's almost like people are addicted to anxiety,

**Michelle Oravitz:** Oh, 100%.

Joe [00:44:00] Depen always talks about that, and it's true, like you could, you could be addicted to stress

and like the adrenals and the, and you could get addicted to the hormones that anxiety and stress. Give you,

you just are so used to it that that feels normal. And that's why, you know, abusive relationships you'll tend to gravitate 'cause that feels normal.

**Katie Beecher:** And also if you're stressed out and your life is chaotic, it's impossible to think about your own needs and your own goals 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Katie Beecher:** your own issues. So it's a way of avoidance, like every addiction is, you know, it's a way of avoiding stuff that you need to take care of or that's painful or whatever. So it's really sad that that people sort of.

Choose that route, when they do have choices, it's not, not making people out to be, you know, that they're, it's their fault or anything. But we do have a lot of choice in, in what we do and how we interact with people. And just setting boundaries or not is a great [00:45:00] example, you know.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I agree. I mean, I think that finding, figuring that out and kind of realizing that we actually have so much more power over our lives. I think that that's like that first step of empowerment. You're like, oh, wow. So I think that absolutely, it's true. We do have choice. Yeah.

**Katie Beecher:** Right. And even like now, it's a bit of a crazy time. You know, and, and I'm sure a lot of people are feeling like. I can't change a society or, or a government, no matter what side you're on, whatever, you know, but there's too much there and I have no power. And it's, even fertility is just such a huge issue, right?

But if you start being like, what can I do to take care of myself? What can I do to control my issues or when I feel like I'm spiraling? And then. Maybe I have more power than I think in terms of like getting together with like-minded people or fighting for your issues or you know, [00:46:00] something. So I just, that powerlessness is just such an awful feeling.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it is, and it it all has a place too, in

some weird way to teach us or to bring us back

to ourselves.

I always kind of have the belief that all roads lead to the light. ' cause eventually, even if it's like a really tough time, it'll eventually lead you to some kind of light.

**Katie Beecher:** That's very true. And also on the subject of control, I like to tell people it's not all or nothing. So it's not like you're in control mode, all obsessed. You know your agenda. And the only alternative is to totally step back and give all that up. The way that I like to describe it is spirit intuition.

It's there as a helper

and letting it, like I recognize myself if I'm going too hard on an agenda or forcing something, whatever, and I can just be like, okay, this isn't working. So step back, allow intuition to come into your life [00:47:00] as a protective guiding force, and it tells me when I need to take action and what I need to 

do. It gives me ideas. It helps me problem solve, so I'm not giving up any control. I'm gaining more

by letting Spirit into my life.

**Michelle Oravitz:** I love that. I think that's so important and I, I'm very spirit forward. It's like my, I, I can't do anything without my, I call them like my invisible assistants,

and I'll tell you like when you lean on them or him, I, you know,

whatever it is that you feel connected to. I see them as his team, you know, but, but yeah, I, whenever you lean on that intelligence, it always shows up.

Like it almost always shows up like in incredibly miraculous ways. And I see it with my patients. I see it with my clients. Like that's the crazy thing is like the, the stories that I hear all the time. So it's real, like it's legit. And, uh, I think [00:48:00] it's so cool. So. For people listening now and they're like, okay, I wanna work with Katie. Like how, what kind of offerings do you have

**Katie Beecher:** Sure. So I basically do two types of readings. One is what I call a full reading. And it comes with a four page report and an intuitive soul painting 

and. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** that. I think

**Katie Beecher:** I know just with the name and age, I prepare the full report and the painting. I send it to them. We meet for an hour, we discuss everything I've sent and then a million things, more people can ask whatever they want and more stuff comes up.

And then I also have an offering for just an hour without the report and painting. So it all depends on kind of what people want and what they can afford, and, you know, stuff like that. They're both effective. And I do sometimes offer a 30 minute too, although it's not on my schedule, 

but it's an option.

So yeah, those are basically the two. And then if people even like, they have questions about what we [00:49:00] talked about, I encourage them to email me after. So it's not just like you have a question, you have to make an appointment after I.

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah, so because we talk about so much everything, emotional, physical, spiritual, that's impacting you in a positive or negative way, we talk about it.

So it's a lot. But yeah, it's a pretty amazing process. I also teach people how to connect to their intuition and their bodies during the visit if that's something they wanna do. 

So, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** And how can people find you?

**Katie Beecher:** So the easiest way is my website, katie beecher.com. but 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm. 

**Katie Beecher:** Instagram and Facebook and, and all of the 

**Michelle Oravitz:** I follow your Instagram. I love her Instagram. It's so cool. And I love all the, all the things that you do. Like, uh, all the, what was it? The poll work. I think that's so cool. That's hard. That's not easy. That it, it's not as easy as it looks. I could tell you that. You, you have to use a lot of core.

**Katie Beecher:** You use your whole body. It's

really crazy. And when you have EDS, movement is [00:50:00] one of the most important things you can do. What I do is a bit extreme and I've had injuries because I've dislocated things, but still the best thing I've ever done for myself. And I really encourage movement for stress relief and 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, good for you. It's amazing. So thank you so much, Katie. This is, uh, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy it, you know, it's really fun and I think it's important too. It's important. I really love talking about connecting to that, like the spirit or energy, you know, I think it's so important.

I think it's a lost art. In a way, because we've gotten so just into science now we're

coming back. Now we're bridging it, which I like.

**Katie Beecher:** Yeah. No, I agree. I.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Mm-hmm.

**Katie Beecher:** Because you're letting your guard down in a way, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yep. 

**Katie Beecher:** you know? But 

**Michelle Oravitz:** But that's where the power is. That's the portal. All right. Thank you [00:51:00] [00:52:00] 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by fertility expert, acupuncturist, and conscious work practitioner, Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official. Originally a CPA, Lorne’s personal health journey led him to discover the transformative power of Chinese medicine, ultimately changing his career path. Now, as a leader in integrative fertility care and the host of The Conscious Fertility Podcast, Lorne bridges the gap between science and spirituality to help individuals optimize their fertility and overall well-being.

In this episode, Lorne shares how conscious work plays a powerful role in fertility, explaining how subconscious beliefs and emotional resistance can impact reproductive health. He discusses the mind-body connection, the importance of inner healing, and how shifting from stress to flow can create profound changes. Whether you’re on a fertility journey or simply looking to align with your highest self, this conversation is packed with insights on conscious transformation, holistic healing, and the power of perception.

 

Key Takeaways:

• Lorne’s personal journey from accountant to acupuncturist and fertility expert.

• How Chinese medicine and holistic healing transformed his health and career.

• The mind-body connection and how stress impacts fertility.

• How subconscious beliefs shape our reality and can either block or support conception.

• The power of inner work and emotional healing in reproductive health.

• How shifting from resistance to receptivity can improve fertility outcomes.

• The role of consciousness in creating meaningful change in health and life.

• Insights from The Conscious Fertility Podcast and how Lorne helps patients find balance through a holistic and energetic approach.

Guest Bio: Dr. Lorne Brown @lorne_brown_official is a leader in integrative fertility care, blending Chinese medicine, mind-body healing, and cutting-edge therapies. A former Chartered Professional Accountant (CPA), his personal health journey led him to acupuncture, herbal medicine, and holistic fertility support.

As the founder of Acubalance Wellness Centre, he introduced low-level laser therapy (LLLT) for fertility and pioneered IVF acupuncture in Vancouver. He also created Healthy Seminars, an online education platform, and hosts The Conscious Fertility Podcast, where he explores the intersection of science, consciousness, and reproductive health.

Websites/Social Media Links: Learn more about Lorne Brown, visit his website hereFollow Lorne Brown on InstagramListen to Conscious Fertility Podcast For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

 

--------

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. ----- Transcript:

[00:00:00] 

Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility [00:01:00] Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Welcome to the podcast, Lauren.

**Lorne Brown:** Hey, Michelle, glad to be together with you over whatever we call this technology. I think yours is the Riverside.

Yeah, I had a good time interviewing you for my Conscious Fertility podcast, so I'm looking forward to having more conversations with you because that was a lot of fun for me.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It was a lot of fun for me too. And I actually it was really, really nice. And to see that we have very similar views just on reality and health and fertility,

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it was a lot of fun. And so last week actually for everybody's listening, that was the first time we actually officially met via zoom.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. But we know each other. We're part of the, the ABORM, right? The Acupuncture TCM Reproductive Board of Medicine but yeah, [00:02:00] like the first time you and I had real conversation rather than chat conversation.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Which is awesome. I

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it. And I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. I think that we both love the whole bridging of science and spirituality. We're kind of nerds in that department.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** for people listening, I would love if you can introduce yourself. I know we also have, we started out with very different backgrounds. And went into acupuncture, you have like kind of a similar cause you started in accounting, right?

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, so, I am a CPA, so a Certified Professional Accountant back in the day they were called Chartered Accountants in Canada and because of health issues and having such a a response to Chinese medicine in particular eventually I, I was the, one of the controllers and tax guys at this time with ocean spray growers here in B.

C. and I left that position so I could go back to school and study Chinese medicine as my second career. So that's kind of a little bit about my background. And then eventually

**Michelle Oravitz:** [00:03:00] Like what made you think about doing Chinese medicine?

**Lorne Brown:** I was ill. I had um, you know, back in the day, this is in the eighties and early nineties. So this Chinese medicine wasn't as available. This was before websites, right? Where you could really see what other people were doing and learning. And so I had severe gut issues, you know, diagnosis IBS, chronic fatigue, candida and you know, I got scoped through all each end and eventually and I tried different Western approaches and eventually it was the herb, Chinese herbal medicine actually that dramatically changed it so much.

So, I mean, I have some memories. I did a bachelor of science first in math. That was my first thing. Then I went and did accounting in McGill. And and then I went and became a CPA, back then CA. They changed the letters for the designation. And I remember when I was at McGill I was already seeing alternative medicine doctors, in particular Chinese medicine.

And I remember [00:04:00] s for the first time, how much clarity, because I had, I didn't realize how much brain fog I had.

And so the clarity I had, I was in the classroom, I just realized how easy things were going in, and I was just remembering things, and I just felt like things were almost in slow motion in a good way, like a professional athlete when they can see the court.

And physically, I just felt I had so much endurance, so much energy. I was just I felt great. And you know, when you've been feeling poorly for so long, That I thought that was normal.

And then I got, you know, the illness was so bad while I was early days in my accounting studies at McGill. it interfered with my, my studies.

It interfered my life. I almost couldn't get outta bed sometimes with the fatigue and the brain fog. And so I had an I had an aunt who was into this stuff. , I was, wasn't right. Remember, it came from Bachelor's Science Math in Duke County. I was, I think I was always open-minded. Look what I'm doing,

but it wasn't kind of on my radar.

And she's the one that suggested I see her Chinese herbalist. And you know, I was desperate. I was living in Montreal, Canada. She was living in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. So [00:05:00] I, I got on a plane and flew to see her person because I wouldn't know who to go see right back then. And you know, through dietary changes and herbal medicine.

It, it transformed my life and funny story because, you know, I do acupuncture like you do. I always had a fear of needles, right? I never was a big fan of needles. So the first time I was getting acupuncture, the acupuncturist who treated me, I have everybody lying down, but he had me sitting up on the table.

Right on the treatment table. I was sitting and he's putting these needles in me and he's like, are you okay? I guess he could see I was going a little green

and I'm trying to be, you know, tough guy. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm fine. Next thing I know flop, I passed out on the table.

**Michelle Oravitz:** do.

**Lorne Brown:** So.

Yeah. So now I receive it.

I love it. Now I give it. But I did. It's a mind over matter, right? I did have that fear of needles, which is why I started with the herbal medicine. Most people like, Oh, I'll do acupuncture, but they maybe have an aversion to the herbs or the taste of the herbs. I was the other way [00:06:00] around. I got introduced to Chinese medicine through the herbal medicine.

And then I was like, Oh, I'll try the acupuncture too. and, you know, I stuck with it, obviously. And, and eventually went back to school and now I can I receive it and I can give it and I have so much compassion for those who have a fear of needles, but usually if they come in and try it, they realize it doesn't feel like needles that you're getting.

And now with technology, I have low level laser systems as well. So I can do laser acupuncture for those people that just cannot. Experience acupuncture because it's so stressful for them.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, for sure. So that's that's one of the things or sometimes starting them out with baby needles because the baby needles are really, really, really super thin. You can barely feel it.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah,

I mean, I, I mean, I just give them the acupuncture for the first time and, and they're nervous. But, you know, they let me put in one needle, then another, then a third. And that's all I'll do for the first visit for people who have a big phobia. But like you and I know, and those that have received it, it's not like getting a [00:07:00] needle at the doctor when you get a shot or blood drawn.

And so you really, you know, once they're in, it takes like a minute to put them in. Then you go and tell a beautiful rest, la la land for 30 to 45 minutes on the table. So all worth it for most.

**Michelle Oravitz:** totally worth it. For sure. So talk about why you got into fertility specifically.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and I'll keep it short, but it was, it was never my intention. My intention was to treat gut issues, digestive issues, because that's what brought me to the medicine. So I thought I'd be, and that's what I set out to do, IBS, irritable bowel syndrome, Crohn's, colitis, severe bloating, constipation, diarrhea, that kind of stuff is what I thought I would be seeing.

and I did see a lot of that, and in our medicine, when we treat, we do a very Detailed history and we treat holistically so we can't just focus on the gut health just like for fertility We don't just focus on the women's ovaries, right? We focus holistically and so most people that come to health professionals back then And [00:08:00] I started in 2000 and now still are female And so I'd always do a menstrual history and the the menstrual history is such a great guide for health, right?

We can get so much information. That's why I prefer treating women over men. I treat both women who are menstruating. Help me diagnose them from a Chinese medicine perspective because I get so much information from their cycle history. And so as I was treating their bloating in their IBS, or they're alternating between, you know, constipation and diarrhea, or even colitis and Crohn's symptoms.

They noticed their PMS went away, they noticed their menstrual pain went away, their irregular bleeding, the spotting, all those things changed. So I became popular. with women's health in general. So I was just doing women's health. So I was seeing people with perimenopause and menopausal symptoms and with painful periods.

That was what I was seeing. And back then, again, the web wasn't a popular thing. I was advertising a magazine with a focus in women's health. And this woman who found me was going through an IVF and she was [00:09:00] going to see one of our colleagues, Randine Lewis, in Houston. So I'm in Vancouver and she flew to Houston to see Randine because this was before Zoom.

And she, Randine told her she needs regular acupuncture at least once a week so she's going to enter herbal medicine. So she has to find somebody local because it wasn't reasonable or cost effective for her to fly weekly to Houston from Vancouver, right? Nobody was focusing on fertility, but she found me women's health.

So she came to my clinic and told me her story and asked if I'd be willing to follow Randine's acupuncture prescriptions and her herbal suggestions and do that for her in Vancouver. And I kind of said cheek cheekily, but in a funny way, in a cute way, as a non aggressive way. So basically you want me to be like a monkey.

And put the points where Randine tells you, tells me, and prescribe the herbs where Randine how Randine tells me. She goes, yeah. And I'm like, I'm in. That sounds great. I get to learn from somebody. Because what our audience doesn't know, [00:10:00] Randine was already focusing with fertility. And she had already had this draft book, which came out shortly after, called The Infertility Cure.

First of many of her books. So, I thought it was a great opportunity to be able to learn from somebody with more experience and, and not have responsibility to the outcome. And so, and then women who are going through IVF and struggling with fertility, they talk and By 2004, I only would take reproductive health issues.

That was all I would take because I was too busy, and I started hiring associates and training them because I couldn't handle the load myself. Now, here we are recording this in 2025 I have multiple associates in our clinic. And that do focus on fertility and myself personally, I still see a lot of reproductive health.

But I'm so into the conscious work now. Cause I have low level laser therapy that we use for fertility, but I use that for so many other things. Brain health pain, pain injury. And I do a lot with pure menopausal symptoms. So, I would say, and half my practice, when I look at my [00:11:00] schedule is conscious work.

Right? Is that mind body work? Half my practice is that. They still get acupuncture and low level laser therapy as part of the treatment but they're coming in with, I'm wanting belief change work. and I do see a lot of reproductive health, but I see everything now. So it's, it's kind of gone full circle.

Because of the conscious work, because conscious work is my passion. And so whoever comes in the door that's looking for change, they may want a relationship change or want a relationship, job changes, finances. They want a baby, they want a healing. Basically, they want to be happy and they realize they can't get it from the outside.

So they're looking for help on the inside to have that transformation. And that's why we use it for fertility because it's such a powerful tool when you can heal the mind, the body follows really well.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. No doubt. So talk about the conscious work, specifically. What does it entail? Mm-hmm

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, well, I'm trained also as a clinical hypnotherapist, and I've done a lot of what they call energy psychology modalities. So I'm trained in [00:12:00] Psyche, emotional freedom technique, Bankstein healing method, you know, energy type medicine. But from the clinical hypnotherapy perspective and what I would call conscious work, it's inner work.

It's waking up to your true nature. It's waking up to what some people would call higher self, what they would call consciousness witness consciousness. You'd have to be open and appreciate that there's more to this world than meets the eyes. And so we have a Newtonian science world, what's considered a materialistic world, and those are things that we can kind of measure.

And then there's the science, the new science called quantum physics. Which understands there's so much more to this reality than what we see and when you have these shifts inside it has your your perception to the world You see it differently and you can think of it as if you live in a building Let's say your your life is a building, you know On the first floor if that's where you live, you're going to have a certain perspective of what your neighborhood is And it's going to be very limited because you can only see from the first floor.

And as you move up, if the 20 store [00:13:00] building, if you live above 10 and you start to live on the 15th floor, you have a different perspective of what is in your neighborhood than the person who lives on the first floor. And so conscious work is about kind of getting to a different perspective. I we know, you know, through so much more research now that we perceive the world.

Through the lenses of our subconscious programming, you know, and so how we see the world is through the lens of our subconscious and that subconscious programming is is inherited and imprinted on us inherited like literally few generations before we know this through um, research on Holocaust survivors and their children and grandchildren.

And we know this through the study, the cherry blossom study on mice were stressed and traumatized and it got passed down to their grand pups. I won't go into the study because it's

**Michelle Oravitz:** and DNA.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, it gets tagged. It's not a genetic mutation, it's a tag. So it can, one generation get tagged, and one generation you can heal it.

So, you see the world through the lens of your subconscious, and that lens is based on your history. And [00:14:00] so, I heard a teacher of consciousness once say, Reality's white snow, let's pretend that. And then you have red glasses. I have orange glasses. Some of the listeners have blue, green, white, yellow.

We're all seeing white snow, but we're all experiencing it, perceiving it differently because of our lens. And if we want to have a different experience to see that reality, we got to change our lens.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes.

**Lorne Brown:** You know, or we're both fans of Joe Dispenza, right? We both run retreats, and

**Michelle Oravitz:** we're Joe Dispenza groupies.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah, I like, I like his work.

I like his retreats and his books. And in his book, Breaking the Habit of Being Yourself, I think it's where he said it. I've read all of his books and been to many retreats, but I really liked how he said your personal reality is based on your personality. And you can't have, how do you expect to have a different reality if you bring your current personality into your future?

You're gonna get the same thing. Right. And so this is about having that shift because, you know, we're going kind of into a rabbit hole here, but if you're open for it,

**Michelle Oravitz:** No, I'm totally open for it. And my, my listeners are used [00:15:00] to it,

**Lorne Brown:** okay, you know, God, I see they're allowed to, or Gandhi, I've seen this quote attributed to both, but it kind of goes like your beliefs lead to your thoughts, which lead to your feelings, which lead to your actions and behaviors, which lead to your habits. which leads to your destiny. Basically they're saying is your behaviors are always congruent with your beliefs.

And when they conflict the program, the belief is going to win. And if you do a behavior long enough, it becomes your habit. So it becomes a reality. So we often want to go and work on the outside world. We often want to go work on a behavior, but the behavior stems from a belief or a program often unconscious.

And so we'll self sabotage ourselves, even though we really want to lose that weight. We go and we diet, we exercise, but that's a behavior. But if you have a program that, you know, I'm not beautiful, right, or I'm not thin enough, then the subconscious wants congruency, and it will find a way to sabotage that.

[00:16:00] Consciously or unconsciously, it'll happen. And so rather than going to work on the behavior, we go to work on the program, and then it flows down, and the behavior changes naturally.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It's so true. And it's almost that, you know, that saying whether you think whether you Think you can or can't 

**Lorne Brown:** you're

right. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it's just a matter of what we choose and I think the key with this is that people don't even realize It's almost like they're so asleep in the matrix

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** is such a great movie, by the way, because of that reason, it really shows us how, if we just knew that that was the case,

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** had those beliefs and it impacts our reality, then we would make a difference.

But I think the problem is, is not even knowing that it's even there.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. Well, of course, and I don't know if the age has changed, but it was my observation that around age 40, people start to realize that they need to do their inner work. the drug doesn't work anymore. The antidepressant isn't working, [00:17:00] or they're in a third relationship. It's not working.

They change cities. Like it's not working. The changing the outside is only temporary.

So somewhere around 40, maybe it's younger now cause things seem to be speeding up,

but around age 40 people come in there and they don't know what they're looking for, but they know they're looking for it. And you and I have language for this, right?

They're looking for inner work, conscious work, but they kind of know that I know by getting a new relationship, it's not going to help. I got it. Something's not right. about me. And I, you know, I'm going to give an example because the relationship one comes up a lot in my practice when people come and see me.

and I share this as an example of self sabotaging programs and why I like the conscious work. And we can talk about how this plays with fertility as well and baby manifestation. This actually wasn't my patient, but it was somebody who shared it. And I loved this case so much because it, it really is a great explanation of of belief change.

So She was around 45. She was a lawyer and she had become aware that she was somehow sabotaging relationships. No matter what [00:18:00] relationship she went in, like she would find some not such great guys in her opinion, but she actually realized she found some good guys too. But for some reason, even she knew there was a button and she, she knew she shouldn't push that button, but she would push the button even in her mind when she knew this isn't going to work out.

And the, and the relationship would collapse. So at her clinical hypnotherapy session, She got regressed and in this regression, she's experiencing herself as a four year old and she's remembering her mom is making dinner for her and her older sister was around seven and she promises the girls that they get popsicles if they eat all their dinner.

So her older sister. Eats her dinner fairly quickly and gets a popsicle. And she, she being for living in that theta brainwave living in the moment, it's not eating quickly. And all of a sudden she sees her sister with a popsicle and she goes, I want a popsicle and her mom's tired end of day. And she angrily says, no, you haven't eaten your dinner.

You don't get your dinner to you. You don't get your popsicle till you finish your [00:19:00] dinner. And it probably wasn't said in a loving way. And this triggered the four year old. And like many four year olds, she got. You know, she had a little four year old temper tantrum, and that set off her mom, and then she got sent off.

To her room without dinner and without popsicle. And in her story, she's thinking in her dialogue that mommy likes, mommy likes and loves my sister more than me. Mommy doesn't love me. I'm not lovable. And she has this aha moment when that program really started for her. I'm not lovable. Now, remember I said the subconscious and the conscious want congruency.

The heart and mind want congruency. When it conflicts, the heart, the shen, the subconscious, wins. And so, she would have a relationship, and if this guy was doting and loving her, her subconscious goes, that's not who we are, we're unlovable. And she would Consciously or unconsciously sabotage the relationship.

So in hypnotherapy work, we're able to bring her 45 year old self back and reparent doing her [00:20:00] child work and shift that. And I often say in my practice, I have a an approach. Notice, accept, choose again. Notice everything is neutral and we give it meaning. Neutral. She just did not get a popsicle. Neutral.

The meaning she gave it was I'm not lovable, right? And children that are in theta, meaning they're in, they're sponges. They don't have that prefrontal development to discern things. They just take things in and we don't know why. But you know, if you're a product of divorce, which a lot of people are It's usually for the children.

It does some form of scarring, subconscious scarring, right? Because the children feel like they're responsible. It's their fault. So guilt shows up or shame shows up. Not safe. So all these programs come up and when I distill them down, I see people that are worth hundreds of millions of dollars. I see people that can't afford my services, right?

And based on what they get paid, right? And when you distill it down, the stories are, can be very different, but when you still it down, it's I'm not enough, right? I'm not lovable. [00:21:00] I'm not pretty enough. I'm not thin enough. I'm not smart enough. It's kind of, I'm not enough when you distill it down, whether you're worth a couple hundred million or whether you're scraping things together.

So. Notice everything is neutral. We give it meaning. And when we believe in the story, we make it real. So this is not to believe in the story. And that's kind of that materialistic side, right? And we use these tools conscious work to go in and clean up the operating system. And here's an important point I want to share with our listeners is You know, you have this hardware, but the hardware functions depending on the software and I got multiple stories like this, but I'll give you a couple, you know, they have done research on those with multiple personality disorders and depending on the personality, right?

One will need reading glasses. One will not. One's blood tests will be diabetic and the other one will not. Right?

I mean. 

**Michelle Oravitz:** to orange juice.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, when we allergic not so same physical body. So from a journalistic point of view, this makes no sense, but from a quantum perspective, it does. Right. And and we've heard people [00:22:00] with near death experiences.

I've, I've heard through a colleague of one before, and I just, I'd met one recently, actually, and she's written a book on it, Anita,

where she, yeah, it's great, right?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Yeah.

**Lorne Brown:** So, you know, her story is she. Developed cancer, funny thing, not so funny, but she always had a fear that she would die and get cancer. So, you know, you got to be careful where you're putting your focus, right?

She did everything she could to not get cancer. She got cancer and she was ridden with tumors and she's in the hospital and her husband's by her side. And the story goes that she goes unconscious. So they tell her, say goodbye. She, this is it. She's, you know. She's going to die and she's got, they got on some medications too, I believe for pain relief.

And I think it was a day or two later, she opens her eyes and she has an experience of a near death experience where we won't go into it today where she sees other. Family members are beings, but not the personalities like she just knew who they were, but she realizes she's coming back and she knew she was coming back [00:23:00] different.

It wasn't like a full lobotomy, like 180 degree turn, but she had a personality change, right? And she knew her cancer is gone. And when she woke up, she tried to convince her husband her cancer was gone. And he's like, you know, no, you know, they got the doctors. She was able to re Share stories of conversations that they had outside when she was in the coma in another room.

She forbade him. She could,

you know, she knew what the doctor's shoes look like, right? Everything. So

**Michelle Oravitz:** that's that bird's eye view.

**Lorne Brown:** she was outside the body,

but her cancer went away without any medication. After that, she woke up from a coma. And her cancer just resolved herself. So there's that personality. So her personality changed and her physical body changed, right?

Because of this and going back to our friend Joe Dispenza, Dr. Joseph Dispenza and your listeners check out his book. They're supernatural the placebo and breaking the habit of being yourself. That's a really good one breaking the habit

Right. It's a good one to start with. He talks about you can use matter to change matter, which can be slow.

That's for our fertility patients taking supplements. [00:24:00] That's IVF, that's diet matter, change matter, or you can use energy to change matter, which can be spontaneous. Like what happened with Anita, which when her cancer went away, right?

Is it went away pretty quickly, right?

**Michelle Oravitz:** There's people with well, we see it all the time at Joe Dispenza's work stage four cancer. It just, it goes away.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. So that's working with a different, dimension of yourself, right? If you want to speak. So the conscious work that I use is how to tap into that, how to tune into it. And it came from my experience, right? I, I've learned this and developed this from many people I've studied with. And I'm a kinesthetic learning.

That's learner. That's why I've learned psych KFT, Marissa peers, rapid transformational therapy, Ericksonian The guy just. Love it, right? I think it started from insecurity. Not enough, not smart enough. So I kept on doing things which brought me my success outside, but inside it wasn't enough. So I kept on learning and learning and learning.

And then eventually, you know, you're brought to your knees, which I was. debilitating anxiety. And I go in and do the [00:25:00] inner work and I have the transformation. And then I'm kind of at peace. Don't feel like I need to do too much. But now there's this new drive, this overflowing, wanted to share. It's a different feeling.

It's comes from peace. It doesn't exhaust you. Right. And so I think on the outside, if I was looking at me, I looked. Similar as in go, go, go. Always learning, always doing right. But I was coming from fear and lack for many years, my doing and stuff. So my doing just got me more fear and lack because I could never feel that void.

Now I'm going, going, going, but it's coming from feeling more whole and complete and I'm not attached whether I do it or not, right? I'm not attached to it so much. And but yet I'm still doing it. But now I feel Charged by it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** That's so great. I mean, don't you see the yin and the yang too, in a lot of this

**Lorne Brown:** Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** the harmony, the

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and you got to keep going into the end So you then you have the young and it happens, right? So, you know, I go inside I become quiet and and then all of a sudden all this [00:26:00] activity and inspire thought comes through me And then I I want to go in and see if I can manifest it, right?

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And everything kind of goes in pulses, you know, there's a, there's pulses, even with like experiences that we have in life, there's ebbs and flows. I think that we get impatient or we think that it's going to be forever, but nothing lasts forever. It's like the good news and the bad news, nothing lasts forever.

**Lorne Brown:** Right? Yeah, it's the good news and the bad news. Yeah, in that sense, don't be attached.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, true.

**Lorne Brown:** Which is a practice.

**Michelle Oravitz:** it is, and it's something that the ancients have been telling us this whole time. They've told us to go within, they've told us not to be too attached, to learn from nature, to learn from what's around us. to flow, flow with it.

**Lorne Brown:** And a tip for our listeners, because again, I teach what I've experienced. Many people may be going, well, I've read these books and I know all this stuff and I haven't had a shift. I was that guy where I had read everything and took courses, but I didn't do the process work. I, I conceptually understood it.

I could teach it. But I wasn't living it. And it wasn't until I actually did the process work that the [00:27:00] transformation started happening, the awakening started happening. And so that's kind of, you know, with my patients, when I work with them, they want to get in the head and understand, which I love. We got to understand when you understand the why behind it, they say that the how becomes easier.

The why is, you know, how does it work? And then the how is, what are you going to do? But if it's just an intellectual discussion you'll have a mind shift. But you won't have a trait change. And what's the difference? A mind shift is that temporary, you feel excited, this makes sense. It feels excited, but it's a shift.

It's like when you pull an elastic band apart, it's neuro elasticity, it stretches out, this feels good. But within an hour or two, or a day or two, it goes back to its normal shape. So you haven't made a neuroplastic change, you just made a mindset shift.

And if you do that daily, multiple times, it eventually become neuroplastic.

And what I mean neuroplastic is if you stretch out a piece of soft plastic and you let go, it stays stretched. So that's the trait change.

So repetition or doing many things that create a mind shift regularly often will give you [00:28:00] neuroplasticity changes, right? That hold becomes a trait. That's that, you know, do certain actions over and over again.

So that's one way. But then there's other. faster ways to do neuroplastic changes, which doesn't just require repetition. That is one of them, but there's other processes I use. Part of my hypnosis practices and other energy psychology tools is what they're often called now to help make that neuroplastic change, not just from repetition, but from doing these Process work and we call it process work because it's not it's not done.

It's a it's a bottom up process versus a top down So i'm not a counselor a therapist. That would be somebody who's doing a top down Let's talk about this

and there's some benefit to it. The clinical hypnotherapist perspective is a bottom up meaning Your tyra box said this once your issues are stuck in your tissues

So when you have these emotions rarely does somebody say I feel it in my head It does happen once in a while.

Most people feel it in their throat, in their chest, in their stomach. It's in your cells. And we got science to talk about [00:29:00] how the microbiome changes with stress and emotions.

**Michelle Oravitz:** images of people, all people that were angry, all people that were sad. And they would notice that it would light up in certain spots consistently in the body, which is really fascinating. You can probably find it online.

**Lorne Brown:** cool. Absolutely.

And, you know, we know like we got serotonin receptors in the gut. Now the heart's being known as a, as a second brain may have more what the read off of it more than the brain and, and then dispensa and heart math talk about heart brain coherence.

So we're. You know, I look at it this way is, you know, back in the day of Galileo and Newton, the days when we thought that the sun revolved around the earth and the earth was flat, it was hard for society to shift and science to shift, right?

Cause everything we understood the way we could look, it was like, no, no, the world's flat. It look at it, you can tell, look, look outside, doesn't look round or look, look, you can tell that. the sun is going around the earth. Look in the sky. It's so obvious. And you [00:30:00] can't tell me the earth is spinning.

We would feel it, right?

And now today, most people

realize that the earth is round, not flat. There are so few flatters out there. They realize the earth is spinning and that the earth goes around the sun. But there's your perception, you know, there's the first floor view. From my view, the sun is going around the earth.

I see it rise and set, right? I can see it float around. I'm standing still. I'm pretty sure about it, but that's a illusion. It's not a complete correct perception on that first floor when you go to a higher floor. So in this case, when we go into space, We can see that it's actually the earth that goes around the sun and the earth is round.

And then if we go to a higher floor, we're going to probably get a whole other understanding of what's going on in this human experience and purpose and what's your individual purpose. And people have spoken of it. I haven't tapped into that aspect. I've had those. Non medicated, so non psychedelic experiences where I've tapped into profound peace, where I've tapped into bliss.[00:31:00] 

I've also, through psychedelics, I've only done it once, so I'll never do it again, where I tapped into my shadow, right? Accelerated my journey, but I wouldn't wish that upon anybody, going into my shadow work unprepared.

**Michelle Oravitz:** 'cause if you, you have to be ready for it. That's

**Lorne Brown:** I wasn't ready for it. I, I, I cheated. I cheated with psychedelics. And it put me into my shadow grateful now because and here's a litmus test for myself.

So I share this with the listeners as well. If you. don't like your life now, then I'm pretty sure you're still living in kind of a victim mode. You don't like your past and you'll have all the evidence to say why you don't like it. And if you can love your past, no matter how bad it is, then I know you love your now.

I know you love your life. Why? Because You realize that who you are today is based on everything that's happened to you and you and because you love where you are today, you would never want to change your past because you love your day. Doesn't mean you want to relive your past, but you're grateful for.

You don't regret it because you love today. [00:32:00] But if you hate your past, then it's I'm pretty sure you really don't love it. your day. And there are some terrible things that have happened to people. And I've seen people who've had terrible acts done to them. They would never ask to go do it again, like, but they also say, I love my life now.

And so I wouldn't change anything in my past. So that shows you that's healed, right? That vibration that's healed. And so, because there's only this moment. So I find conscious work powerful when you bring it to reproductive health. I want to quote our Randine Lewis friend who wrote the book, The Infertility Cure, many books, but I remember hearing her talk about when women get into a later stage of their reproductive years, especially into their forties she said, you know, at the beginning, you know, reproduction is, it's a, it's a youth game, Jing, we call it essence Jing, it's the physicality, right?

You got to have good physicality and it, and that happens with the youth. We see it around us, right? Like, a 90 year old and a 20 year old, the same person or different [00:33:00] physically. But there's something about spiritual maturity and sometimes, and this is where it kind of ties into Dr. Jo Dispenza, matter change matter.

So that's the physical, the Jing. And then there's energy that can change matter. And that's what we call the Shen, the spirit tapping into that consciousness. And she says, when you're younger, you can be spiritually mature because you have such good Jing, it overrides everything. And so you can be a drug addict.

And you're 20s and getting pregnant all the time, right?

Poorly eating, all that stuff. And then if you get into your 40s, the physicality you want, but it's not enough, you need to, as she said, have your shit together. So that's, I'm quoting her.

And sometimes that's when we see what we call miracles. It overrides the physical.

And you really need to do that spiritual, the spiritual maturity happens. And so, you know, have both. Add to that her excitement with donor egg back in the day when we were having this conversation was she couldn't wait to meet the Children that were born through donor egg cycles because she [00:34:00] says currently this was way back when in early 2000 people were born with either young mothers, so physically strong, spiritually immature.

They're in their twenties, early thirties or they're born with women in the early forties. physically not as strong, but spiritually more mature. So they didn't have both. She goes, but with the donor egg cycle, they get the gene from the, the egg. So a physical, physically strong, younger woman, and they are gestated.

And raised by spiritually mature women. It's going to be the first time where they get both strength from the physical and strength from the spiritual. So she was quite excited. It

was a different perspective to look at the Dorae. She was like, I wonder what kind of children these are going to be, right?

So, 

**Michelle Oravitz:** amazing. And actually it's really interesting. I don't know if you've seen this yourself, but sometimes the donor egg and the child looks like the mother.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah, well, not surprising. I, I, I can't quote you on this, but I remember that they've done this in animals where you put him in a different, like, I don't know, [00:35:00] a donkey into a horse or something like, and it comes out looking more like the the mother. Like the, the horse. So, because don't forget you start as, you know, You know, a bunch of cells, right, you know, when you go in and you're grown, so you are influenced because you're, you're taking in in Chinese medicine talks about this, the emotional well being of the mother during pregnancy will impact the nervous system and the emotional personality of that child.

And so what you're eating and what you're doing is helping grow that child. So we have what we call prenatal Jing, you know, for our listeners. So you get that from the mother, the father, and then. throughout pregnancy. And then postnatal Jing is what you, what happens after you're born. So your diet lifestyle.

And so everything is impacting you up until you're born. That's what we'd call your genes. And in Chinese medicine called pre pre pregenetic destination, right?

Prenatal, prenatal essence. I don't know if I said, if I use the right word, prenatal essence or prenatal Jing is what happens. So, yeah, I love [00:36:00] that story that she looked a little bit like the mother, not surprising.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. And I've actually seen it because I, one of them she's somebody that I'm friends with on Facebook and she's also been on the podcast, Nancy Weiss. She's a spirit baby medium, is a whole other

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** topic. Right. But she. donor embryos and one of her daughters, she put a side by side picture of herself when she was younger and the daughter, and it was crazy. How similar they looked and then I've heard another story of somebody with freckles that she's had freckles But the mother of the donor did not and her husband did not So she always wanted a child with freckles and sure enough one of them got freckles 

**Lorne Brown:** Very cute. Yeah,

And that, there's so much things we don't understand and the donor egg cycle, I don't know if you've seen this, but with my patients, they only have one regret and it's a great regret that I've always heard when I've heard any regrets, I don't hear it often, but I hear it [00:37:00] and they say that the only regret I have is that I didn't do this donor egg cycle sooner because I don't, I realized I could have been with this baby I, I waited, I, you know, cause they're doing other things and understand there's a process to come to this place where you're ready to do donor a.

But that's a great regret. Meaning they love this baby like from day from day one implantation, right? They have this connection. They're their mother. And and. It's, it's, that's great news, right? Cause so many people understandably have to get their head around about not using their own genetic material, right?

And when you get there, when you surrender, which is part of conscious work, right? And the resistance drops and you get into flow and receptivity, the experience can be beautiful. And then regardless, even if you don't, when that baby's born, you're like, what the heck? I've been waiting for this forever.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yes. And that's another thing. So looking at the same thing from different lenses and different perspectives, and then you can kind of think, [00:38:00] okay, I may have wanted it to go this way, but perhaps it can go another way. And I'll still get the end goal, which is really to become a mother.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, that's the end goal. And that's what we want to focus on. And from the conscious work, you know, we, we hear so often in manifestation work and in teachers of consciousness, not to be attached to form an outcome. And I'm a practical guy. So the left brain, my math background, my accounting, I'm, what I would say my feet are on the ground and my header is in the clouds, not just, you know, some people either their head in their clouds.

So some people in our industry just head in the clouds. So it's hard to bring it to this earth or my old profession as a accountant, the feet are on the ground, right?

I feel like I'm, I'm doing both of that. 

So. I want to share this because this worked for me. And again, I often share is, you know, it's easy to say don't attach to form an outcome. That's easy to say you're not the one that has, you want this form an outcome.

So it's, you can't fool the universe. You can't pretend, right? Really pretend,

but you can do [00:39:00] practices. And I have found this line and I didn't come up with this. I heard this from somebody else and I was like, brilliant. And it works for me and it's worked for hundreds of other people I've worked with this or something better.

Yeah. I want this or something better that had such a different vibration to it because you didn't choose your desire So I will never say you can't have you can't want this You can't desire this because you didn't choose it. I I prefer chocolate ice cream over strawberry. I can't tell you why it's just it is I just like I want chocolate ice cream.

I don't really want strawberry ice cream. It's just What is, and so, but when you have a desperate need for it, that if I can't have this, then you create resistance and that impacts the field and that cannot be healthy. But if you have a desire, you want it, but you also know you're going to be okay, whether you have it or not, that doesn't add resistance to the field.

And so often we, cause if you get focused on has to be this way, then you're not leaving yourself open to other things that [00:40:00] can bring you that same experience. Right? Because what does the baby bring to you? Right? You know, why do you want the baby? What's it gonna bring? What's gonna be different? What are you gonna experience?

You know this kind of work, right? Because then you could get little, I call them Drift logs or kisses on the cheek from the universe where you know what it feels like you're practicing what it feels like and it's This or this or something better and then all of a sudden it that same experience comes to you But it's a different manifestation physically.

So you're like, oh You know getting that feeling and so you're you're starting to get it from other places as well You're experiencing it. And when I say get it from other places I want to use that loosely is you have learned to Elicit that experience inside of you and then you're starting to see it manifested on the outside so because you don't want to have to get it from the outside because again, then you're not whole and complete This whole work is about becoming whole and complete where it's cut.

You are it's It's you're making it inside of it. You're tapped into a part of yourself higher than I guess the ego self to use that language. And then it becomes fun to [00:41:00] see if you can manifest it on the outside, but you're already experiencing the feeling. Hence it's easy not to be attached because you're already feeling the joy or the love or the nurturing of something else, right?

And the being of service to something else, you're already bringing up that experience. So you don't need it on the outside, but then all of a sudden you see it on the outside and that just bumps it up a bit. It amplifies it. And so you get, but it's temporary, that amplification. And then when you come back to your set point, that set point is peace and joy anyhow.

So you're good.

**Michelle Oravitz:** So it's unconditional peace and joy. It doesn't have a condition on it. You choose to just have that.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** you can, and I think that that's the big thing is that people don't realize that they can actually do that. They could bring it up through just meditation and different practices that they can bring it up in themselves.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. You tap into that. And I mean, I've, I've had that. I have glimpses. I have experiences of it. And for now the language is I'm, I'm tapping into my true nature and everybody has this true nature, your witness consciousness, your higher self, you want to give it a word. [00:42:00] And. I think we might have talked about this when I interviewed you on the Conscious Fertility podcast, but it's not all positive.

It feels good. You still get uncomfortable feelings.

You're just not at the full effect of them. So you experience the sadness. You can experience fear. You can experience guilt or hopelessness, but it moves through you like a song on a radio, 90 seconds, and it passes through you. And then you're back to that peace.

And So if you're able to not get into the story and you can experience it, you still feel these uncomfortable feelings, but there's a, there's could be an underlying peace or even beauty behind some of those feelings. You're just not at the full effect of them and they just don't last for, for weeks.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, the untethered soul, I think that was like a big game changer for me, that book

**Lorne Brown:** Michael Singer's book. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Singer, he's amazing. And I think that it really was about like allowing discomfort to happen without judgment, without that kind of good or bad, that neutrality, just kind of allowing it to happen. And I have an [00:43:00] example because I burned myself. I remember it was a Friday night and I was exhausted. I was so tired. I couldn't wait to sleep. And I burned my thumb. was like, man, and it was a stupid thing. Cause I was so tired and I touched something and I knew I shouldn't have done, it was just like, without thinking. And I was like, how am I going to sleep with this burning sensation? It was like the worst feeling ever. You know, it's like when you first burn yourself. And I remember thinking to myself, maybe it was like my higher guidance, something resist the burn. So I was like, okay, let me try this. literally felt, I closed my eyes and like, I imagined myself just kind of going through the fire with my hand and almost. Accepting it, inviting it, allowing it. And literally within five minutes, the burn went away.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, and that's the quantum. That's energy changing matter and you use the awesome word resistance Right resistance is futile to quote the Borg from Star Trek

Resistance is futile for those Trekkies out there When you add resistance basically you amplify the burn you amplify the [00:44:00] suffering or take from the Buddhist quote pain is inevitable the burn hurts Suffering is optional.

That's where you amplify and when you can lean into it versus it's counterintuitive because we should run away from it. We think, right? And I had that similar experience in the nineties. I I had read, I read dr joe dispenses book, but I didn't understand it. I kind of read it, but Didn't catch very much of it the first read and one day when I was studying to write the exams to become a chartered accountant, a CPA I had sadness come over me real, and it was a new thing.

I wasn't something I really experienced this kind of sadness that I could recall. And I don't know why I did this, but there's again, another part of you leading the way here. I decided to, in the middle of the day, I had shared accommodations. I was living with a female and she had Yanni and the Ghetto Blaster.

Back in the day, it was Ghetto Blasters. with cassettes, maybe CDs. She had some incense burners. So I lit that and there was like lavender rose in it. And I went in the [00:45:00] bath and just decided to experience the sadness. So as I'm listening to the sad music, there's some incense and candle lit in the middle of the day in the bath, hot bath.

I'm so going into the sadness. Tears are rolling down my eyes. And in a moment I'm in full bliss. Like I'm like bliss. Like. But I I don't do drugs, but what except for that psychedelic experience, what, what a good high would be like, it was like, and honestly, if that's what it feels like, I understand why people would do drugs.

It was just bliss. And I'm like, you know, try to be sad. Because I was like, this feels great. Can I be sad? I couldn't be sad. And it was only later I had that experience first. And then I read dispenses book. Sorry, not just Ben's, Eckhart Tolle's book, Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now is what I meant.

And the line where he says, you, when you're present, you can't suffer, because when you're regretting the past or fear in the future, you're not in the present.

But if you're in the present, he says, even sadness can be turned into bliss. And when I read that line in the book, [00:46:00] I had my aha moment because I had that experience. And now the process that I do in my conscious work is about lowering the resistance. Somebody says, what are you doing? You're tuning into your, your wist witness consciousness.

You mentioned Michael Singer, the untethered soul. He often says he doesn't use tools or do tools, but he kind of does. And and I have a process that I believe brings down the resistance. My experience, people, I've worked with and then you have that flow and receptivity and sometimes I just have peace.

Maybe it's at, you know, if my, if I'm frustrated or fear, it's a seven out of 10, it'll come down to say a two or one. So peace in an unhappy situation still, right? But peace. So the resistance is low.

Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** flow in that moment. And it's interesting because I, my litmus test is, are you present? Really? That's the question. I, a lot of people that I work with is, are you present? Like, cause many times when they share things that are uncomfortable for them, they're not really in the present moment.

They're either [00:47:00] expecting a future or thinking about a past or something that happens. So the present moment's always the antidote. To everything. If we

**Lorne Brown:** present. And that's what the mind does. It's the nature of the mind. You can't get mad at the mind for thinking because that's its nature to be like getting upset with water for being wet, right? It's its nature. So you're fighting with reality. However, there's tools to help you get present and these uncomfortable feelings can become portals to presence.

Right.

And you're not wallowing them and, and embellishing them, you know, you're not inflating them. You're leaning into them and observing them. So I think what's happening, my experience, my understanding to this point is when we really get practice at noticing and observing them and accepting them, I think we're tuning, we go into present moment, but we do this by tuning into our witness consciousness because the mere fact of witnessing them, not, it shouldn't be this way.

It's not fair, like getting into the head. But.

**Michelle Oravitz:** neutral watcher.

**Lorne Brown:** get into the watching, just getting practice at watching, then you [00:48:00] tune into your witness consciousness and that nature of you is peace and joy. So you tune into it. So wherever you put your energy is what's going to grow. So if you believe in the story and you're at the effect of the story, then you're You're unconscious and you're experiencing it.

You're suffering right now. You've amplified the negative situation if you're able to observe it I'm not saying you'll like it. We're not doing a spiritual bypass here, but getting practice at observing at it I believe you tune into the witness consciousness and It's nature's peace and joy and the metaphor I use for this Michelle is when we so Tell me how this lands for you and I'm curious for your audience because this for me was my another aha moment just like what's going on here because I'm having these experiences and I want to have language to share with the people I work with.

So if you buy an apple, you have to consciously you Michelle ego Michelle has to pick up the apple and chew it. But after that, Michelle, you're not going release salivary enzymes in your mouth. Like I got to do that. Nobody talked to me. Nobody talked to me. I'm getting acid into [00:49:00] my stomach now. Okay, I cannot.

Walk up the stairs because my intestines are now absorbing the all these B vitamins or same thing when you sleep when you go to sleep You're unconscious. You're not breathing yourself. You're not pumping your blood Or pumping your heart circulating your blood your autonomic nervous system is doing this another part your subconscious program is doing this, right?

The autonomic nervous system. Well same thing. I don't believe for me that I let go of these programs or emotions anymore. Not Lauren Brown ego. Just like I don't release the salivary enzyme. All I have, I believe it's my witness consciousness does this. It's what's metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings and old programs.

And how do we do this? Well, first you have to make the unconscious conscious. So that's my notice step. Everything is neutral and then we give it meaning. Don't believe in the story. When you do, you make it real. So don't take it personally. Then I have multiple tools during the accepting part to surrender to what is, not fight it.

Doesn't mean you're resigned to it. Doesn't mean you like it. We're just accepting that this is how I feel right now. And you [00:50:00] accept it and you start to observe it and get really, this is a skill. You get practice at observing it.

And by that observing, you tune into the witness consciousness and it is what lets go the feelings.

It's what metabolizes it.

So, so.

It's the intelligence. And so give it a conscious divine. I don't know if it's a part of me or part. I don't know. All I know is Lauren Brown is not doing it. Just like Lauren Brown gets to choose to bite the apple. Lauren Brown gets to choose to notice, not take it personally and observe it.

That's all I do.

The digestion of the apple is outside of my ego, my conscious mind, the digestion and the alchemy of these emotions where I was sad, went from sad to bliss. Right or go from fear to just feeling at peace. I'm not doing that I don't believe I let go of it and this ties into Michael Singers He says that these I don't know what he calls them Sankara's or something these these these energy blocks.

They're [00:51:00] there So you're not experiencing your true nature You're all blocked up with these old programs and beliefs and feelings, but when they get released they move up and out You have this space now where you get to experience yourself. So that's how he describes it.

Does, I mean, the, the metaphors and the concepts, yeah, the bottom line is you got to do the work you get.

That's my point. It's nice to understand. A lot of us cannot confirm or prove anything, but when you have the experience, you don't care because the experience is peace and peace. It was nice.

**Michelle Oravitz:** It is.

**Lorne Brown:** I'm not at the,

I'm not at the state, I'm not at the stage where I can equally treat fear and, and peace or fear and love together.

Like some people say you get to a place where you don't, you don't judge either. You're, they're just vibrations. You're okay. I definitely prefer peace and joy and bliss over fear, shame, guilt, just so you know. Yeah.

**Michelle Oravitz:** really our true default

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** is in that nature and that's the Buddha [00:52:00] nature. That's kind of like

**Lorne Brown:** yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** like form and we learn the other things.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah,

**Michelle Oravitz:** habituated through habits. So bringing this into fertility, which I think is actually very relevant, even though, you know, it's kind of like this big grand concept, it could totally apply to going through IVF, going through the resistance.

And also in the IVF, you get so focused on the numbers and the analytical, where sometimes you need to kind of. move back and allow yourself the space and the, and to really take care of your wellbeing. And that's kind of like a, my big thing about that, which always tends to kind of fall in the back burner burner.

**Lorne Brown:** yeah, yeah, you're going through the journey and anyhow, so that's all thing pain is Inevitable suffering is optional. I don't think anybody would want to go through an IVF However, if you're going through it, you could go kicking and screaming and suffer through it, or you can go through it and, and not amplify the difficulties of it.

And that, again, is a skill set, because [00:53:00] IVF is not easy. As you know, the research shows it's like getting a cancer diagnosis or terminal diagnosis, infertility. So I want to clarify that we're not dismissing it. The conscious work is about being authentic. It's actually about feeling your feelings.

However, with a different lens and developing a skill set, a process, so you can metabolize it, right?

But yeah, if you're going to go on this journey, if you're in this journey, you didn't choose it, but you're in it. And so how do you use it as, as they say in the conscious teachings, how do you make it as, how is this happening for you versus to you? What does that mean? How do I get out of victim mode?

Because it doesn't serve you to being accountable, responsible. What does that mean? Accountable responsible does not mean you blame yourself or you blame other accountable. Responsible means that if you're having the experience, then that's all you need to know that you're responsible for healing it because you're the one having the experience.

If you if you it wasn't your responsibility, then you wouldn't be having that experience. And there's so many experiences [00:54:00] happening around the world at one time, and each individual is only aware of so many the ones that they're aware of that are triggering them that they're experiencing.

That's, that's all you need to know that that means you're accountable, responsible for that. The stuff that's happening around the world that doesn't trigger you, it's not your responsibility to do the inner work around it.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah. Well, I mean, I can keep talking to you forever and of course we just talked about one subject, so perhaps I'll bring you back for other ones as well. But this is this is definitely the kind of thing that I'm very interested in and I nerd out on this all the time. It really is something I think about every single day. I think that it is when you really are bringing up your consciousness and becoming more aware in your life and. Really being the creator of your life or owning that you are a creator in your life I just think it brings another element of purpose and meaning everything.

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah. We all want to be happy. And we think different things outside of us will make us happy. This work brings that kind of [00:55:00] happiness. And if, to kind of wrap this part up on consciousness from the materialistic and then the quantum perspective, you know, when we, when we're unconscious, or when we're in that state of fear, we don't feel safe, right?

Then our body goes into survival mode, right? The fight or flight. And so, our resources are not available for healing. creativity and reproduction because they're in survival mode, you know, blood gets drained from the, the thinking brain goes, the blood gets drained from the digestion reproduction.

And so, but when you feel safe, which is what conscious work is, so here's on the material level, you free up resources for healing, creativity, reproduction. And we know this, that the unsafe hormones of cortisol. and adrenaline and epinephrine, all those things affect inflammation, the body, the effect, your immune system, your hormonal system, your gut microbiome.

And when you feel safe, you're releasing the serotonin, the dopamine oxytocin, and they turn on and off genes for health and [00:56:00] reproduction. So that's the material level. And then on the quantum level, there's more of this world that meets the eye and you have multiple stories. And I have stories of women where it doesn't make sense on the material Newtonian.

medical, current medical research

that this woman is going to get pregnant based on her age, based on her FSH, AMH, based on her history. And then they go ahead and it happens, right? And that's where dispenses energy changes matter. It's instantaneous or Randine says the Shen is key here. And that's where you tune in.

And I, and I want to clarify, I'm not saying, Oh, if you do conscious work, you'll get pregnant. Absolutely not. Just sharing that. Miracles can happen or shifts can happen. And what I have found is people get to a place where they're okay. Whether they're going, they have baby or not, they know they're okay.

And that means they have the flow and receptivity. So they feel happy. They still want the baby, but they're no longer in that state of desperation. They're no longer putting up the resistance that could be interfering [00:57:00] with that flow and receptivity, which would be supportive of a. Healthy pregnancy.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Yeah, and it really comes down to the state of being and that state of flow. And so again, you were saying, you know about how it's not about taking out the things that are uncomfortable for us And that's really the yin and yang balance having both, you know The differences and then having them be harmonious and work together and flow I think ultimately it's like I always say it like when you're in flow things start to work out you're coasting

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, well people, resources tend to flow to you when you're in flow and receptivity. When you're, when the resistance is low and you have flow and receptivity, things tend to flow to you. And we know in electrical systems that when there's stagnate, there's resistance, we call it Qi stagnation in Chinese medicine,

**Michelle Oravitz:** our bodies. Yeah.

**Lorne Brown:** the energy flows slower and it heats up the system in a bad way.

And when the resistance is low in an electrical system, the energy flows

better. So we're electrical, chemical, magnetic beings. And so when our resistance is up, we call it cheese [00:58:00] stagnation, call it resistance. You don't feel the flow and receptivity. We call it stress in the West. And when you are able to do the work to metabolize, to have that alchemy where you're changing these old programs that don't serve you or the, or metabolizing these uncomfortable feelings then the resistance drops and now you have flow and receptivity.

Your energy flows better.

**Michelle Oravitz:** For sure. So Lauren, this is a great conversation. I definitely feel like we connect on many levels and I think it's really fun to be able to talk to somebody about this kind of work, especially somebody who's a colleague of mine and somebody I look up to. I think that you do a lot of great work. By the way, he also has healthy seminars, which is like a whole list or database of many courses for us.

A born members. Within the fertility world. So he has a lot background in this work. thank

**Lorne Brown:** Thank you.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Lauren, for coming on. And if you can also share how people can find you through your website

**Lorne Brown:** Yeah, two ways. And [00:59:00] then on that you can find Instagram and all this stuff. There's the Accubalance website and it's with one C Accubalance. ca. The ca stands for Canada for my American listeners Accubalance. ca. Or the laurenbrown. com will have links to stuff as well. And Lauren is spelled L O R N E so laurenbrown.

com and obviously I also want to direct you both sites will have links to it, but the The conscious fertility podcast has lots of talks around consciousness and, and also around fertility as well. Like guests like Michelle are on there. And so, I do invite you to listen to the conscious fertility podcast.

We put out usually once a week episodes.

**Michelle Oravitz:** Awesome. Well, Lauren, this is a great conversation. I knew it was going to be, cause I met you last week and we had a great conversation last week too. thank you so much for coming on today.

**Lorne Brown:** Thank you very much, Michelle.[01:00:00] [01:01:00] 

 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I dive into why your nervous system may hold the key to conception. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function? I’ll break down how chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation affect hormone balance, digestion, and overall well-being.

In this episode, I’ll also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system through the lens of Traditional Chinese Medicine and share practical strategies to restore balance, enhance relaxation, and support your fertility naturally.

Key Takeaways: 

• Chronic stress can put the body into survival mode, diverting energy away from reproduction.

• A harmonious balance between action (yang) and rest (yin) is essential for optimal fertility and overall well-being.

• Stress impacts digestion, which in turn affects fertility. The vagus nerve plays a key role in restoring balance.

• Proper sleep helps regulate hormones, maintain circadian rhythms, and support menstrual health.

• Practices like yoga, qigong, breathwork, grounding, and acupuncture help shift the body into a restorative state conducive to conception.

• The heart-uterus connection in Traditional Chinese Medicine highlights the role of oxytocin in conception and reproductive health.

---- For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

 

--------

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care. Transcript: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] 

Michelle Oravitz: Welcome back to the wholesome fertility podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orobitz. And today I'm going to be talking about something absolutely crucial for fertility.

And you may have not guessed this, but it's your nervous system. We all know how stress can impact fertility, but did you know that your nervous system plays a direct role in reproductive function for both men and women? Today, we'll cover how nervous system dysregulation affects fertility, why stress hormones like cortisol disrupt reproductive balance, and how to regulate your nervous system to boost your fertility. And because I love blending Western science and traditional Chinese medicine, we'll [00:02:00] also explore the yin and yang dynamics of the nervous system and how keeping these energies in balance is key for optimal fertility. So let's dive in.

So first I'm going to talk about the autonomic nervous system, and it is basically what is hidden in the background, taking care of your body at all times, whether you're conscious of it or not.

So for short, we can call it ANS. So the ANS controls involuntary functions like heart rate, digestion, and reproductive function. It has two main branches. One is called the sympathetic nervous system, and you may have heard this referred to as the fight or flight.

And the other is the parasympathetic nervous system, and that is considered the rest and digest. So if you want to think of this as the yin and yang, the yang is more active and it would be more of the fight or flight. Which isn't a bad thing 'cause you know, everything that we have in our [00:03:00] bodies are there for a reason.

And the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest, would be considered more of a yin, which is more in its potential and it's more calm and inert. So when these two systems are in balance, everything works really well, and ultimately we need both in order to survive. And that is why it's there in the first place.

But when stress takes over and the body shifts into survival mode, then this is considered more chronic stress. It's something that happens all the time. So we're not meant to have this So fight or flight mode happen chronically, we're meant to have it to take us out of danger, but we're not always in danger and we'll still feel it because of our stressful thoughts or stressful situations in our life will cause us to feel like we need to survive.

So when this happens chronically, it creates a sympathetic nervous system in overdrive and this can directly [00:04:00] impact fertility.

So just to recap on the yin and yang, if you haven't heard about this before, the yin is a more feminine, quiet, calm state. And it's more receptive. It's cooling. It is considered the moon, whereas the yang is the sun. It's more active.

It moves a lot. It moves quickly. It is more the fight or flight. It has a yang energy and the yang could be more heating. So like I said, it was, more representative of the sun and mobilizes energy for action.

Generally, although fight or flight and rest and digest are just one examples that have yin and yang qualities, we have yin and yang aspects of our bodies really for everything. And in order for our bodies to thrive in general, the yin and yang have to have a harmonious state.

So they need to work together as a couple. And when that happens in a harmonious balanced [00:05:00] state, that is when we thrive. And you can think about it as homeostasis. The body likes homeostasis and homeostasis is really vital in order for our bodies to thrive.

So we can also look at actions that we're doing. If we're doing things that are too young, too active, like type A personality type of thing, where we have to get everything done, everything on the checklist has to get done, and we're not really taking time out for the rest and digest, or for time to just get more.

restorative, restorative sleep, restorative rest, or do things that are less action oriented. When we don't have that balance, then we go into a more overdrive aspect of the young, and that can burn us out.

And it's important to know that when we get into a survival mode, our bodies and our minds are not focused on any kind of creativity whatsoever because we have to survive and the body's always going to favor survival over [00:06:00] reproduction. So if reproductive energy needs energy, then it's going to basically tap.

It's kind of like our savings account. And the body, if it's really depleted, it's going to tap into the savings account and use that for survival, which means that it's taking energy away from reproduction. And when energy is being taken away from reproduction, then it's not going to reproduce because that is not priority.

The priority is survival. So, Having this chronically can really, really wreck havoc on your hormone balance and really impact so many different systems. It can impact how you sleep. When people feel really stressed. Then they're going to have a really hard time falling asleep because their nervous system is constantly wired and ready.

You know, when we're in a survival mode, we're not going to want to sleep too deeply because look at our ancestors. If they knew that they were in danger. [00:07:00] They were going to be a lot more awake. You see a lot of cats with their ears open. Their nervous system is very receptive to any kind of noise. So small noises can wake us up and we're not going to be in a state where we can just let go and feel safe.

And ultimately being in the rest and digest mode really means feeling more safe. Another thing to consider is the fact that our rest and digest mode, I mean, based on the actual description of that means that it's restorative, the rest, but it also helps digestion. So we know that high stress that is chronic can lead to

issues with digestion. So Our digestive health is incredibly important when it comes to fertility health. In Chinese medicine, we look at the spleen and the stomach as a pair. And those organs are actually, even though the spleen in Western medicine is more something that works on our immune system, which the spleen and stomach do to some extent, [00:08:00] because when our digestive health is really healthy, our bodies have enough energy to fight off any outside impacts.

any disease, really. So it gives us the energy that we need. So we need our digestive system to work properly in order to nourish our bodies so that our bodies are able to get energy. Plus it also, with a healthy digestive system, you have less inflammation and a lot of imbalances with the digestive system or even our gut microbiome can impact.

autoimmune conditions or our immunity and have it a little more hyperactive because there's chronic low grade inflammation at all times. So those are things that are actually really, really important. And as we know, chronic stress can impact our digestive system. So we have a relationship really between the brain and the gut is absolutely real And it is mediated by something called the vagus nerve. 

And that is a cranial nerve that is in [00:09:00] charge and actually having it stimulated can impact your heart rate and it can impact your digestive system. SoSo it has a direct communication between the brain and it has a direct communication to the enteric nervous system.

Michelle Oravitz: So the enteric nervous system is basically our digestive nervous system. it runs from your mouth all the way down to your anus. So it's basically your whole digestive system has its own nervous system. And this is called the enteric nervous system. So your thoughts and your emotions and your emotional state can indirectly impact your nervous system of your gut through the vagus nerve.

So your thoughts and emotional state and stress levels can impact your gut health through the nervous system.

And of course, if your sleep is impacted, this is going to cause your hormones to get impacted because sleep helps restoration. It also helps deplete excess hormones and balance [00:10:00] hormones altogether. It also impacts our circadian rhythm. And for women, this is really important when it comes to their menstrual cycle, because our circadian rhythm, which is our 24 hour clock also impacts our infradian rhythm, which is the 28 to 29 day cycle, which is our menstrual cycle.

And when it comes to Chinese medicine, our heart health or heart state is really, really important when it comes to fertility health, it has a direct line of communication. And a really,a direct vessel to the uterus, which through something called the bow my channel.

And this is really important for conception. So many times when our hearts are not in the right place, then it can impact really how our uterus and our womb reacts. So it is one of the really most important things is really connecting to that heart center. And also we know that the love hormone oxytocin increases around ovulation and it increases [00:11:00] after intercourse.

So we know that there is something to that. It has to be there for a reason if it has a role to play in conception. Although this aspect has not really been studied as much in depth.  

We know that it wouldn't be there unless it had played a role. And

 

Most of the studies done on oxytocin really are geared towards labor and the body going into labor. So we know that if that's the case, and in Chinese medicine, the heart opens the uterus, that's its role. Then perhaps the heart opening the uterus opens it in labor, but perhaps it also opens it in receiving new life. Because as we can see, the levels increase around time. which is optimal time of conception around ovulation. And after a woman has an orgasm, it also increases for men as well. But in this case, I'm talking more about women because it has a role on the womb.

So in cases of men, [00:12:00] their sperm health can get impacted by a dysregulated nervous system. So it's important for men to also have The proper rest and proper nervous system balance. So we also know that with men it is important to have the Yin and Yang balance as well. When it comes to overall, you know, Yang is more of a male energy and they do have a lot of that heat.

But also the sperm is really surrounded by Yin fluids. So it is very Yin also in nature, even though it's very quick swimming. So it's important for both to be in balance for men as well. So again, going back to the nervous system, we're thinking about something that's active, but something that is also restorative and having those two opposites in balance.

So a couple of things that you can do to balance the nervous system, and this can be done for both the men and the women, is to do things like yoga or qigong, because [00:13:00] with moving the body, you're able to really restore a state of balance. safety in the body and where the body feels safe, it has more energy for its creativity.

So the body's creativity is fertility, but the same thing happens with the mind. When the mind is in chronic stress, the last thing it thinks about is creating and innovating. And usually when the mind feels safe, it will be more open we'll have more energy to create.

So another thing that can be done is grounding. Grounding is incredibly calming and it also calms the nervous system because most of the time it's done outside. Although you can get a grounding mat if need be, which is something that you can purchase online, and you can use indoors.

Grounding has an impact to regulate your circadian rhythm. It also helps you sleep really well at night. And it also has an impact on lowering inflammation on the body. This is scientifically proven and there's research on [00:14:00] this and there's studies about this and it's pretty amazing.

It also decreases the time for wound healing, which means that it heals the body really quickly. Native Americans have always talked about why it is so important and actually that the body can become sick if it doesn't ground. So grounding is incredibly important and one of the things that is often missed these days because we have rubber soles and our feet don't really have many opportunities to ground into the earth.

And what grounding really means is having your feet touch the earth, whether it's sand, dirt, or grass. An opportunity where it's able to touch the earth directly. And by doing so, It actually impacts your body's electromagnetic frequency.

Another thing that can be done besides yoga and qigong is also breath work. Breath work also has a direct impact on the mind. When your mind is nervous or stressed out, you typically will have that [00:15:00] reflect in your breath by being short what happens is when we're more relaxed, we actually breathe slower and deeper.

So by breathing slower and deeper, you're actually able to impact the body. and create and induce a more calming effect immediately.

And also by using belly breath, you can use the diaphragm. So it's diaphragmatic breathing, which can also impact your nervous system and calm it down. Something else you can do is humming. And by humming, you're creating a certain vibration that can impact your vagus nerve.

So it basically stimulates the vagus nerve which can also have a very calming effect on your nervous system.

You can also listen to music. So the sound vibration in certain types of music, not all music can have a very calming effect on your nervous system. And examples for that are solfeggio frequencies [00:16:00] and even sound bowls

and even classical music. So those are sounds that can create more coherence and order in your mind and your body. Something else that you can do is also do some heart math exercises. Heart math institute is something that I would definitely suggest looking into.

And what they study is the connection between the heart and the brain. And when your nervous system is more calm, it shows. And when your heart brain coherence has increased, there's more coherence and order and that induces a state of more calm and a more restorative state in your body.

And of course I am very biased, but, I am very big on acupuncture, which is really how I got into it. I started out as a patient myself and acupuncture, the practice of acupuncture and getting treatments for acupuncture can be incredibly beneficial for your nervous system.

It is so powerful isbecause it gets you into a state of deep relaxation. [00:17:00] And when you're able to deeply relax, your body is able to restore itself and regenerate and repair.

So on that topic, one of the ways that it does that is using ear points, but you can actually use your fingers and massage your own ears because your whole body is reflected in your ears. You could do the same thing for your feet as well. And I would suggest also starting out a really nice sleep hygiene routine, which means lowering lights about an hour to two hours before you go to sleep.

That is going to help restore your sleep. The more sleep you get, the more calm and at ease your nervous system is going to be. So those are my tips for calming and restoring your nervous system.

So that concludes my tips on balancing your nervous system. and I hope that this episode shed some light on how intertwined our nervous system is with our fertility health And why it's so important to [00:18:00] nurture a balanced nervous system state.

If you have any questions and have any ideas for future episodes. Feel free to reach out to me on instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility

I'm very active on instagram. So that is the best way to find me

so thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day. [00:19:00] 

 

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception.

In this episode, you’ll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey.

Key Takeaways: 

• Kerry’s personal fertility journey and challenges with IVF

• The pivotal moment when she conceived naturally after stepping away from treatments

• How fertility yoga supports the nervous system and reproductive health

• The importance of feeling safe and creating space within the body

• Practical tips on incorporating breathwork, movement, and mindfulness for fertility

Guest Bio: Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about Kerry HindsFollow Kerry Hinds on Instagram Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

To learn more about ancient wisdom and fertility, you can get Michelle’s book at: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome Fertility facebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

--------

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

 

Transcript:

# TWF: Kerry Hinds

[00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes.

and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children.

Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office.

**Michelle:** Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you.

**Kerry:** Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today.

**Michelle:** Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise.

It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga.

**Kerry:** Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with.

Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system.

And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life.

Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman.

And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me,

**Michelle:** oh

**Kerry:** did all the

**Michelle:** What a great friend

**Kerry:** I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language.

So for anybody who's doing this,

fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training.

I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this.

And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification.

And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it.

Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this.

You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now.

LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles.

Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF.

We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million.

Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant.

**Michelle:** Wow

**Kerry:** intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right?

So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga?

And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was,

**Michelle:** It's true

**Kerry:** Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining.

what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution.

**Michelle:** Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth.

That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable.

And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get.

Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important

**Kerry:** Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't

going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're.

You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that.

I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally.

So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm.

**Michelle:** I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe.

And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe.

**Kerry:** Yeah.

**Michelle:** When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that.

And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in 

many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy.

**Kerry:** Yep.

**Michelle:** Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system.

**Kerry:** 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system.

So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just 

**Michelle:** Yeah. I love that. Yes.

**Kerry:** Because what it is, it

**Michelle:** Yup.

**Kerry:** It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again.

And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right? 

**Michelle:** Right. it's

**Kerry:** explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things.

**Michelle:** Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system.

We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system.

And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound.

So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our 

bodies. 

**Kerry:** Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to.

And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me?

Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there.

And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built.

And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights,

quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert. 

So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that.

Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga. 

**Michelle:** I love restorative yoga.

**Kerry:** Me too. 

**Michelle:** Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now

**Kerry:** Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like, 

Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right?

And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go.

So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard.

**Michelle:** Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog.

You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly

**Kerry:** Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming.

And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system.

**Michelle:** Yeah. It's not amazing.

**Kerry:** You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good

**Michelle:** Yeah. 

**Kerry:** like 

I just 

**Michelle:** who doesn't like that?

**Kerry:** Yeah Yeah,

**Michelle:** That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga 

or other types of yoga?

**Kerry:** Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey.

So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things.

And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle.

So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right?

So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space.

So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well.

So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right?

We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga.

For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on.

So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones.

Whew. 

**Michelle:** I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest.

So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension.

**Kerry:** Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah.

**Michelle:** And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra.

And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety.

**Kerry:** Yeah.

**Michelle:** So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure.

**Kerry:** Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time.

And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga.

It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that.

But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level.

**Michelle:** Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah.

**Kerry:** I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture.

Yeah. It's like a seal.

**Michelle:** again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue.

**Kerry:** Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras 

for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera.

And it was actually very profound. 

And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two?

It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly

**Michelle:** It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements.

He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago.

And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine.

That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so

sometimes 

doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics.

And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros.

And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we 

see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies.

I can nerd.

I 

**Kerry:** I, I'm going to go, I'm

going 

to, 

**Michelle:** all day long.

**Kerry:** I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny, 

but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness,

spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving.

And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space.

We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah.

I 

**Michelle:** that. 

**Kerry:** Yeah. The

**Michelle:** Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates.

I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space.

**Kerry:** Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much?

Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there.

So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space.

it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking.

**Michelle:** Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly?

**Kerry:** Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns.

The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes.

It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds.

I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go 

## Marker

**Kerry:** progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want.

Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious.

But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected.

And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility?

If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight

**Michelle:** Yeah,

**Kerry:** and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful.

really

**Michelle:** is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor

to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to 

**Kerry:** it.

to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored 

**Michelle:** have time. you have time. 

**Kerry:** Yeah, I 

know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most?

Like the two week wait, perfect time,

um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most.

**Michelle:** Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff 

**Kerry:** too. Me too. Me too. I

**Michelle:** I think we're on the same page.

**Kerry:** I am

**Michelle:** fascinating. 

**Kerry:** nerdy about it. And,

**Michelle:** Yeah.

**Kerry:** and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here,

**Michelle:** 

the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women.

I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds

**Kerry:** Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it 

if I 

can't 

**Michelle:** said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast,

**Kerry:** yes 

**Michelle:** guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest.

Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very 

**Kerry:** thanks for the shout out for the podcast.

Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever.

**Michelle:** for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways?

**Kerry:** sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health.

But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and

it's 

finally 

**Michelle:** That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool.

**Kerry:** Yeah. Thank you.

**Michelle:** Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story.

Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing.

Perfect. 

**Kerry:** Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]