Typology

Today, we're joined by Justin (8w7) and Trisha Davis (3w2), a couple whose story holds both heartbreak and a hard-won hope. We talk honestly about the Eight–Three dance in marriage—intensity, drive, image, and protection—and how those same strengths can be magic when we're healthy and toxic when we're not.

We also dive into their new book, One Choice Away from Change: Break the Cycles that Hurt Your Relationships and Hold You Back. They remind us that real transformation isn't about muscling through—it's about naming the wound, choosing presence over performance, and practicing honest vulnerability.

Justin shares how confusing help with weakness fueled secrecy and performance—and how grief became a doorway to healing. Trisha reflects on the Three's chameleon move, learning to show up without over-achieving, and a wise reframing of the Enneagram as "not a weapon and not an excuse." Together, they walk us through surviving an affair, pastoring through COVID, late-in-life family revelations, and the truth that forgiveness is not a one-and-done event. Their North Star: when they're healthy, they're magic; when they're not, they're toxic—and daily choices make the difference.

If you've tried to achieve your way out of pain or sprinted past grief because it felt inefficient, this conversation will meet you in the messy middle. We explore relief vs. recovery, acting our way into new feelings, and why you can't heal a wound you won't name. It's tender, practical, and full of hope. I hope you'll tune in.

About our guests

Justin and Trisha Davis are pastors, authors, speakers, and the founders of RefineUs Ministries. They're not perfect. They're not interested in pretending. They are passionate about helping others experience real healing and deeper connection.

Together, they co-authored Beyond Ordinary: When a Good Marriage Just Isn't Good Enough, and Justin's book Being Real > Being Perfect: How Transparency Leads to Transformation is a USA Today bestseller. Justin and Trisha have been married for 30 years, have five kids and live in Indianapolis.

One Choice Away from Change — available wherever books are sold

Justin & Trisha's Website: http://justinandtrisha.com

In this episode of Typology, I sit down with Dr. Todd Hall to explore the profound ways attachment theory shapes not only our personal relationships but also our spirituality.

Together, we unpack how the early bonds we form with caregivers influence our emotional health, the ways we relate to others, and even how we connect with God. Todd shares insights from his groundbreaking research on relational spirituality, reminding us that true spiritual formation is not just about what we know—it's about how we experience love, connection, and trust in real relationships.

We discuss the different attachment styles—secure, anxious, avoidant, and fearful—and how they show up in daily life and in faith. Along the way, Todd offers hope: insecure attachment styles are not destiny. Through healing relationships and spiritual practices, our relational patterns can be rewired toward greater security, freedom, and love.

If you've ever wondered why relationships are so hard, why intimacy feels risky, or why your connection with God sometimes feels distant or fragile, this conversation will help you see yourself with fresh compassion—and invite you into a more integrated path of personal and spiritual growth.

ABOUT TODD W. HALL, Ph.D.

Todd W. Hall, Ph.D. is Professor of Psychology at Biola University's Rosemead School of Psychology, a Faculty Affiliate in the Harvard Human Flourishing Program, and a licensed psychologist. He is the author of numerous books, including Relational Spirituality and The Connected Life. Dr. Hall is the founder of the Relational Spirituality Academy, which trains Christian leaders in the Relational Spirituality model of spiritual formation and coaching (relationalspirituality.co).

Connect on Instagram, Facebook or LinkedIn at @drtoddwhall

Relational Spirituality: A Psychological-Theological Paradigm for Transformation

The Connected Life: The Art and Science of Relational Spirituality

This week, we explore the art of listening and the complexities of human personality through the lens of the Enneagram with Emily Kasriel, an award-winning journalist, executive coach, and author of the new book, Deep Listening: Transform Your Relationships with Family, Friends, and Foes.

Emily shares her journey of self-awareness and the importance of deep listening in our everyday interactions. She discusses her experiences at the BBC, the challenges of listening in high-stakes situations, and the powerful eight-step approach to deep listening outlined in her book.

Discover how to create psychological safety in conversations, the significance of being present, and the value of curiosity in understanding others. We also examine the nuances of the Enneagram, helping listeners discern their personality types and how they can enhance their listening skills.

Whether you're new to the Enneagram or a seasoned enthusiast, this episode is packed with insights that can transform your relationships and deepen your understanding of yourself and others.

Key Highlights:

• The concept of deep listening and its importance in today's world

• The eight-step process for effective deep listening

• Personal anecdotes and reflections on self-awareness

• The interplay between personality types and listening styles

Don't forget to grab a copy of Emily's book, Deep Listening, and join the conversation about how we can all become better listeners!

Subscribe to Typology for more insights on personality and relationships!

In this week's episode of Typology, I sit down with Dr. Terence Lester—an Enneagram Eight, author of From Dropout to Doctorate, and the visionary founder of Love Beyond Walls. Terence's story is as powerful as it is inspiring. From his early years in Atlanta to leading a movement that uplifts those experiencing poverty and homelessness, his journey embodies both courage and compassion.

Together, we explore what it means to be an Enneagram Eight in the trenches of community work—wrestling with control, burnout, and the temptation to over-function. Terence opens up about a devastating car accident that reshaped his sense of identity, his relationship with productivity, and ultimately, his capacity for gratitude.

We also dive into the intersection of action and contemplation, the influence of Henri Nouwen on Terence's life, and the healing power of reconciliation in his own family story. Along the way, Terence reminds us that leadership isn't about posturing but about vulnerability, presence, and the willingness to walk alongside others in their pain.

This conversation is an invitation to rethink how we serve, how we love, and how we grow. You'll walk away with profound insights about resilience, healing, and the transformative power of the Enneagram.

ABOUT OUR GUEST

Dr. Terence Lester is a storyteller, public scholar, speaker, community activist and author of From Dropout to Doctorate. He is the founder and executive director of Love Beyond Walls, a nonprofit organization focused on raising awareness about poverty, homelessness and community mobilization. He serves as the director of public policy and social change and as a professor at Simmons College of Kentucky (HBCU). He received his PhD with a concentration in public policy and social change from Union Institute and University. Terence has authored four additional books with IVP, including one with his sixteen-year-old daughter, Zion, titled Zion Learns to See: Opening Our Eyes to Homelessness. The other titles include I See You: How Love Opens Our Eyes to Invisible People, When We Stand: The Power of Seeking Justice Together, and All God's Children: How Confronting Buried History Can Build Racial Solidarity.

Terence is known for nationwide campaigns that bring awareness to homelessness, poverty and economic inequality. His awareness campaigns have been featured on ML K50, CNN, Good Morning America, Essence, TEDx, TVONE, Creative Mornings, USA Today, NBC News, Black Enterprise, Rolling Out, Upworthy and more. These campaigns have been viewed by millions of people worldwide. Terence is happily married to his best friend, Cecilia, and they have two amazing children, Zion Joy and Terence II.

Learn more about Dr. Lester by visiting his website at www.terencelester.org or follow on social media at @imterencelester or @lovebeyondwalls.

This week on Typology, I sit down with Ginny Yurich—author of Until the Streetlights Come On and Homeschooling: You're Doing It Right Just by Doing It. Together, we revisit the freedom of childhood play, explore how modern parenting has shifted, and talk about why kids today desperately need more time outdoors.

Ginny, an Enneagram Two, shares candidly about her own parenting journey—what she's learned about boundaries, mutuality, and the deep desire to feel appreciated. She also introduces her initiative, 1,000 Hours Outside, which is inspiring families around the world to reclaim the simple, sacred gift of unstructured outdoor play.

Whether you're a parent, grandparent, teacher, or simply someone reflecting on your own childhood, this conversation is a powerful reminder that nature has the ability to heal, connect, and transform us.

Connect with Ginny

1,000 Hours Outdoors Podcast

Instagram

Facebook

Website

Homeschooling: You're Doing It Right Just By Doing It

Until the Streetlights Come On

In this episode of Typology, I sit down with Alicia Michelle—an Enneagram One and host of The Christian Mindset Coach podcast—for a meaningful conversation about emotions, perfectionism, and the journey toward self-compassion.

Alicia shares her story of discovering her true type, the freedom that comes from quieting the inner critic, and her practical ADD method (Acknowledge, Discern, Decide) for processing emotions. Together, we explore the importance of emotional literacy, how different types experience emotions, and why learning to govern our inner world is key to growth.

Whether you're new to the Enneagram or eager to go deeper, this episode offers fresh insights and practical tools for navigating your emotional life with greater clarity and grace.

Ever feel like the world's volume knob is stuck on "too loud"? In this week's episode of Typology, I'm joined by my friend Sarah Boyd—an insightful Enneagram Four and author of the brand-new book, Turn Down the Noise: A Practical Guide to Building an Emotionally Healthy Family in a Chronically Overstimulated World.

Sarah has walked through seasons of deep beauty and deep challenge—including her own cancer journey—and she's here to share how those experiences have shaped her understanding of creativity, meaning, and the role our emotions play in living a full, authentic life.

We talk about how overstimulation impacts both adults and kids, why recognizing our limitations matters, and how setting healthy boundaries isn't selfish—it's essential. Sarah offers thoughtful, practical ideas for creating a home where emotional health can thrive, even when the world outside feels overwhelming.

If you've been craving a little more peace, presence, and emotional resilience in your daily life, this conversation is for you.

In this episode, we explore:

• The beauty and necessity of emotional experiences

• How to navigate life in a chronically overstimulated world

• Simple, powerful practices for parents to nurture their kids' emotional well-being

• The freedom that comes from self-care and clear boundaries

Thank you for tuning in. We hope you enjoy this enriching episode!

What happens when a peace-seeking Enneagram Nine becomes the voice of one of the most beloved animated characters in children's television?

Find out as we dive into the world of the Enneagram with special guest Mike Nawrocki, co-creator of VeggieTales and the voice of Larry the Cucumber. In this engaging conversation, we explore the unique traits of Enneagram Nines, known as the Peacemakers.

Mike shares insights from his journey in creating beloved children's content, including his latest project, The Dead Sea Squirrels, which is now a growing book series and animated show. We discuss the motivations behind Nines, their tendency to avoid conflict, and the importance of claiming one's voice and presence in the world.

Whether you're familiar with the Enneagram or just curious about personality types, this episode offers valuable perspectives on self-awareness, personal growth, and the power of creativity. Don't miss this opportunity to learn more about the Enneagram and how it can enhance your understanding of yourself and others!

ABOUT MIKE NAWROCKI

As co-creator of VeggieTales, co-founder of Big Idea Entertainment, and the voice of Larry the Cucumber, Mike Nawrocki has been dedicated to helping parents pass on biblical values to their kids for over three decades. Mike is the offbeat brain behind Silly Songs with Larry, and has lent his screenwriting and directing talents to dozens of VeggieTales episodes, as well as both of the properties' theatrical releases, Jonah and The Pirates Who Don't Do Anything. His most recent project, an early reader book series entitled The Dead Sea Squirrels, has been adapted into a 13-episode animated series now streaming on Minno, with more books and a season 2 of animation currently in the works. Mike also serves as an assistant professor of film and animation at Lipscomb University in Nashville, TN, and co-hosts the weekly podcast, "The Bible for Kids." Website: https://mikenawrocki.com/ and Amazon Author PageFollow on: Instagram | Facebook

What happens when your deep longing to love and be loved gets tangled up with your need to be needed?

In this week's episode of Typology, Anthony and I sit down with the wonderful Emily Zeller—a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified Enneagram practitioner, and a one-to-one Enneagram Two. Emily brings such honesty and heart as we talk about desire, boundaries, and the tender places in all of us that crave connection.

As we explore the unique energy of the Enneagram Two and unpack the three subtypes—self-preservation, social, and one-to-one—we ask questions we can all sit with: When have you confused being loved with being needed in your own relationships? What would it look like to offer love without trying to earn it in return?

If you've ever wrestled with seeking validation, struggled to set boundaries, or simply wanted to understand yourself or a loved one better, you're going to feel right at home in this conversation. This episode isn't just for Twos—it's for anyone longing to grow in self-awareness and bring more compassion and balance to their relationships.

🎧 Listen in and join us as we reflect, laugh, and get real about what it means to be human. And as you listen, consider: where in your life is love inviting you to simply rest and receive?

Follow Emily on Instagram: @iamemilyzeller Learn more at: zellertherapy.com

👉 Subscribe to Typology wherever you get your podcasts and share this episode with someone who needs it.

Welcome to this enlightening episode of Typology! Join us as we explore the life and journey of Sister Monica Clare, an Enneagram 6 and author of the memoir A Change of Habit: Leaving Behind My Husband, Career, and Everything I Owned to Become a Nun.

In this episode, we explore:

• Sister Monica's experiences growing up in a chaotic environment and how it shaped her Enneagram type.

• The unique challenges and joys of being an Enneagram 6 in a religious community.

• The intersection of spirituality and personality, and how the Enneagram informs her spiritual practices.

• Insights from her journey in Al-Anon and the lessons learned about control and boundaries.

• The role of fear and anxiety in decision-making and how she navigates these feelings in her leadership role.

Sister Monica shares her candid reflections on her path to becoming a nun, the importance of community, and the spiritual practices that ground her amidst uncertainty.

Don't miss this heartfelt conversation filled with wisdom, humor, and inspiration!

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Connect with Sister Monica Clare on TikTok: @nonsenseforthepeople

Grab a copy of A Change of Habit today!